weekend mornings at 8:00. follow me on twitter @chrislhayes. right now it's time for "the last word with lawrence >> sounds like joe biden is evolving a little faster. >> i am absolutely comfortable. men marrying men, women marrying women. they are entitled to the same exact rights. >> tell me what you really think. >> joe biden clearly was speaking from his heart. >> it certainly caught the white house by surprise. >> they came out so quickly. >> was to make the same point. >> it's a delicate dance he has to do. >> the vice president is not the only member of the obama administration. education secretary was asked if he supports gay marriage. >> he was asked this morning. >> to which he answered yes, i do. >> they knew it would come up. mitt romney had to let go of his spokesman who is gay.

>> today on the campaign trail, something important happened. >> mitt romney was asked a question. >> that we need to talk about. someone said something about the president being responsible for treason. >> try the president for treason. >> wait a minute. >> yet again, a soldier moment. >> a failure to lead. >> more mitt romney vp auditions. >> the battle over who will be the next vice president. >> we don't talk about it, right? >> i'm not going to discuss the vice presidency. >> i had great experience as attorney general. >> you do not talk about fight club. >> the presidential election in november will be a nail biter. >> we will move this country forward. we will finish what we started. god bless the united states of america.

>> with two new polls out today, the issue of the day is marriage equality. a new poll shows romney at 48% and president obama at 47% while a u.s. today gallop poll of 12 key swing states has president obama at 47 and romney at 45%. an amendment that would ban same sex marriage in the state would be on the ballot tomorrow. president obama quietly registered his opposition to the amendment two months ago in a written statement put out by his north carolina campaign spokesmen. but what joe biden said on meet the press yesterday put marriage equality in the center of the campaign today.

>> is that what you believe? >> that's what i believe. >> are you comfortable with same sex marriage now? >> look, i am vice president of the united states of america. the president sets the policy. i am absolutely comfortable with the fact that men marrying men, women marrying men, they are entitled to the same exact rights, all the civil rights and liberties. i don't see much of a distinction beyond that. >> in a second term, would this administration come up behind same sex marriage? >> i can't speak to that. i don't know the answer to that. but i can tell you -- >> it sounds like you would like to see it happen. >> the president continues to fight whether it's don't ask don't tell or whether it's making sure across the board that you cannot discriminate. this is evolving. >> evolving is the word president obama used to describe his own feelings at a news conference on the day he signed

the repeal of don't ask don't tell. >> my feelings about this are constantly evolving. i struggle with this. i have friends, i have people who work for me who are in powerful, strong, long lasting gay or lesbian union. my baseline is a strong civil union that provides protections and legal rights that married couples have and i think that's the right thing to do. but i recognize that from their perspective this is not enough. this is something that we will continue to debate and i personally will struggle with going forward. >> president says that, quote, i personally am going to continue to wrestle with this going forward.

he means wrestle with it politically, right? >> is there anyone who actually believes that the president does not personally support marriage equality, which he supported back when he was a state senator and it has been a political calculus. gays and lesbians across the board. on the one hand we are like could you go ahead and evolve already? but on the other hand, the legislation that he has passed has been quite remarkable. don't ask don't tell is just the beginning of that. he is also not defending one which is quote important. a list of 75 actions that this president has taken to support lgbt rights. you don't want to undermine the really good work that he has done by the fact that he has not explicitly come out to support marriage equality.

>> let's listen to what the president has said. he has got a political resume. we will listen to him on this. >> i met with judy shepherd. i promised her we would pass a hate crimes bill named for her son matthew. we got it done. i issued an order that any hospital in america that accepts medicare and medicaid has to treat gay partners just as they treat straight partners. i said we would lift the hiv travel ban. we got that done. don't ask don't tell is history. my administration is no longer defending don't mind the courts. it's time for it to end once and for all and should join don't ask don't tell in the history books. >> johnathan, we are watching someone who has to play politics with this and there are limits

to the politics as they calculate for their reelection. the politician is trying to get re-elected cannot say that. >> today i wrote a piece where i said that it appears as though the president is playing a big game of charades. if you look at his actions, they sound like he is in favor of marriage equality. they look like he is in favor of marriage equality. he just won't say the words. and to echo what crystal said, the president, what people are waiting for the president to do is have his words match up with his deeds. he is already not defending the so-called defensive marriage act against court action. he believes it is unconstitutional and the department of justice has an opinion supporting that. he said he would sign the sponsored legislation that would repeal the defensive marriage act so if a bill were to come to his desk, he would sign it,

there by eliminating this needles ban on same-sex marriage. so, you know, if he is involved in some twisted game of political calculus, again, echoing what crystal said, i understand what he is doing and i understand why he might be doing it, but still when it comes to people's rights, their civil rights, their dignity and how they are able to protect their families and keep their families whole, people don't have time for -- don't have time or patience for politics. in that montage, things that you showed from the dinner in october of 2011, i was at the dinner. one of the things that the president said at that dinner and one that he attended in 2009 is he doesn't expect people to be patient with the slow pace of change and that friends can talk honestly with each other and he expects the gay and lesbian community to push him in the

right direction. i think that pushing is going to continue to get harder and actually become more emphatic. because as everyone knows, this election is going to be pivotal. >> let's remember that mitt romney has also evolved on this issue. he has evolved very much in the wrong direction. a little bit of a reality check. he just had his foreign affairs spokesperson have to leave the campaign because he is openly gay. meanwhile we have the vice president of the united states coming out pretty clearly in support of equal marriage. it seems to me like the whole country is really evolving along with the president. >> is there any doubt that joe biden was authorized to say that on "meet the press"? >> there are folks who are wondering if this is all arranged. first you have vice president

biden on "meet the press" and then duncan on "morning joe" saying yes i do to the question do you support same-sex marriage. you have to keep something in mind. it was almost instantaneous from the moment that vice president biden's words were aired that david took to twitter to knock it back or walk it back. i don't think this is an orchestrated attempt to telegraph a certain message to moderates and to the gay community. as andrea mitchell said this is just joe being joe. >> i think the president is probably concerned about some of the more socially conservative constituents in the party, particularly african-americans and latinos who may be less comfortable. we have been so concerned about recapturing the enthusiasm of young voters and this is an issue that young voters tend to

really care a lot about. the president could reenergize some of the young voters. >> johnathan mentioned on "morning joe" this morning. i want to see that. >> do you believe that same sex men and women should be able to get legally married in the united states? >> yes i have. >> have you ever said that pubically before? >> i don't know if i have ever been asked pubically. >> their appearances are coordinated with the white house. they go over what they are going to be saying. after joe biden was on "meet the press," surely there was a conversation on what he should say and the answer to that question. that one could not have been thought of to just come out of left field. >> you're talking about bide snn. >> duncan, the fact that he backs it up the next day with a

stronger statement than joe biden, a very simple definitive answer. that would have had to have been coordinated with the white house. >> i understand where you are coming from, but i can't join you in that conspiracy booth. >> they do go over their talking points with the white house when ever a cabinet member goes on tv. >> arnie duncan is the education secretary. i don't think expected that he would be asked about same sex marriage. figured that they went over everything he would be in terms of education policy. here is the key. here's the key. the next secretary to go on air anywhere on television, anywhere in front of print reporters better be ready to have an answer for that question. now we will start taking a tally. >> i'm actually with lawrence on

this one. i think they are trying to telegraph to the left in every way that we can, we are with you on this issue even if the president cannot come out and say it directly. the actions really speak louder than the words here. and just wait. just be a little patient because we're having to deal with the politics of it. >> we will see if telegraphing works. thank you both very much for joining me tonight. >> thanks, lawrence. >> coming up, tomorrow north carolina votes on a constitutional amendment that will ban marriage equality in that state. many pastors in north carolina support that amendment. today you will hear a north carolina pastor who opposes it. and what he has to say is absolutely riveting. you need to hear this. you will be sending the video of this to your friends and we will have it posted online after the show. and mitt romney caves to an anti-gay right winger last week and now that very same anti-gay

right winger thinks that mitt romney is weak because mitt romney caved to him. that's coming up and the polling of the gender gap continues to hold for president obama in key swing states as he launches the campaign. melissa harris is going to join me on that one. high schools in six states enrolled in the national math and science initiative... ...which helped students and teachers get better results in ap courses. together, they raised ap test scores 138%. just imagine our potential... ...if the other states joined them. let's raise our scores. let's invest in our teachers and inspire our students. let's solve this.

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north carolina votes tomorrow to rewrite the ban on gay marriage. many pastors are obviously in favor of that amendment but we will show you a pastor that opposes it. the eloquent and moving statement that he made yesterday should convince many voters to

do the right thing. you will hear exactly what he said. coming up, an obscure right wing fanatic bullied mitt romney into getting rid of a campaign staffer and now the man who bullied romney thinks romney is weak because romney gave into him so easily. this is the one you will have to hear to believe. with the spark cash card from capital one,

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talk show host in middle america, then how is he going to stand up to the chinese? >> that is right winger brian fisher, the man who forced rid romney to drop openly gay staffer. which host do you think he is talking about? which one was romney so afraid of? no, not this guy. and no, not that guy. no. the conservative radio talk show host that brian fisher is talking about, the one who mitt romney is so afraid of is none other than brian fisher himself. >> how is he going to stand up to putin or north korean? i don't think romney is realizing the doubts that this begins to raise about his

leadership. >> now brian fisher is criticizing for caving to brian fisher over having a gay staff member in his campaign. >> i don't think for one minute that mitt romney did not want this guy gone. there was not word of defense. they just went absolutely stone cold silent. they put a gag over his head. they asked him to organize this phone conference and they didn't let him speak. >> joining me now, joe, and former dnc communications director car ren finny. so it turns out brian fisher is only half crazy. >> seems that way. >> he is right tonight. >> he is right for all the wrong reason. >> to be leading our diplomacy just as a china incident showed

the same thing. he peeped up about that. now he has gotten rid of because of this yahoo who says why is he listening to me. he called himself a yokel. he said it. like -- >> self-described. >> would you listen to a self-described yokel tell you get rid of this person. when you look at the people, under president clinton, reagan, under both presidents bush, serious important job. it's not a joke. and for mitt romney to get rid of a guy after a few days just because, which you have to assume it took him a while to pick this person and he gets rid of him because a yokel tells him this guy has got to go because

he's gay? this harkens back to a very dark period when people were kicked out because of various kinds of prejudice and our diplomacy and our intelligence and military all suffered from that. we don't need to go back to that under mitt romney. >> the point he is making, that fisher is making, is if you can't stand up to me, who can you stand up to? that is a really valid point. >> of course it is. it is lovely point. >> i love that he talks about himself as a yokel in the third person. you just can't pay for that kind of stuff. this is similar to what many of us said about rush limbaugh in that if they can't stand up to rush limbaugh, if they are so scared to stand up to rush, how

are they going to take on iran? they will bomb iran but they can't stand up to limbaugh? on a serious note, remember that they were saying last week that this shows that we have got control of this guy. that is really at the heart of the matter in terms of you can't trust mitt romney. he will be so beholden to so many different forces that this is what is going to happen this is what a romney presidency would look like. >> let's remember his words when limbaugh was calling sandra fluke a prostitute and a shut, mitt romney could not bring himself to say i will just say this, it's not the language i would have used. let's go to ohio today.

he was faced with a woman who said that president obama was guilty of treason. >> there is a microphone right behind you. >> we have a president that is operating outside the structure of our constitution. [ applause ] and i want to know -- i want to know, i want -- i do agree he should be tried for treason. >> she then went into a long thing that turned out to be a constitutional question and here is mitt romney's response. >> as i am sure you do, i happen to believe that the constitution was not just brilliant but probably inspired. i believe the same thing about the declaration of independence. >> he never says a word, not one word about this woman saying obama should be tried for traeson. >> that's an important contrast. john mccain, for all his crankiness during that campaign

towards obama who he didn't enjoy running against, never the less is somebody that has principles that he is willing to speak out for and is not afraid for a crowd of right wing yahoos. >> a reporter asked him why didn't you answer her or say something to her about the president being tried for treason. >> i don't get all the questions -- i don't agree he should be tried. >> he doesn't correct those questioners. >> that's not his job. he is just trying to close the deal. come on. >> to understand the important of what is happening while it's happening. a true leader would have

understood the need to stop that part of the question to say i don't agree with that and go on with the rest of the question, the same way that john mccain did during the last cycle when a woman was talking about president obama being a muslim. for all the attacks that they make on obama and his leadership, this is a real failure of romney's leadership. he doesn't have daughters, but he has five daughters in law, he has granddaughters. so certainly from a very personal place he could have stood up for women and girls, and he didn't do that either. >> it is his fear of the woman, it reminds me of the don draper scenes and when he gets mad at nin in the corporate meetings who says something additional, we could go on and on with this. thank you both very much for joining me tonight.

>> coming up, melissa harris perry reviews michelle obama's star turn on the campaign trail in ohio. and you will hear a north carolina pastor -- no, no, no. you won't hear him. you will be riveted by a north carolina pastor who preaches against the amendment on the north carolina ballot tomorrow to ban same sex marriage. that's coming up. [ male announcer ] this is genco services -- mcallen, texas. in here, heavy rental equipment in the middle of nowhere, is always headed somewhere. to give it a sense of direction, at&t created a mobile asset solution to protect and track everything. so every piece of equipment knows where it is, how it's doing or where it goes next. ♪

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>> north carolina might rewrite the state's constitution by making marriage between a man and a woman. the only recognized domestic union. polls indicate that amendment will pass but not -- not if the good people of north carolina listen to what reverend dr. william jay barber has to say about it. when you hear him speak, you can almost hear some north carolina voters changing their minds. i don't know how many but some. i am absolutely convinced he has changed minds. what he had to say yesterday is that powerful. you have got hear this. and michelle obama has found her voice on the campaign trail. michelle the campaigner 2.0

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>> the process of selecting a vice president is obviously a very serious one. it's one i am not talking about. >> mitt romney may not be talking about it but the potential candidates are. >> i have great experiences. i would say that i have -- some would say better experience than barack obama had when he was a senator and ran. having been the chief law enforcement officer of my state. what it comes down to is serving new hampshire. >> that was kelly applying for the job yesterday on "meet the press." chris christy's friends say he has friends and say he would, quote, relish the opportunity to play at that level. it is like askinging joe dimagio if he wants to play alongside mickey mantel.

and msnbc political analyst. how was senator kelly's audition yesterday on "meet the press"? >> i think she actually left her resume there and was passing it around. that is practically what she was doing there. she was breaking the first rule of being in the big race, which is you don't seem to want the job. you don't campaign for the job. very surprising that she has done that. a couple of days earlier she was on the stump doing a try out in new hampshire. but boy she certainly seems to want the job and you see all these other folks like chris christy all of the sudden stepping up and saying he could be convinced to take this job. this is the first really public display i have seen.

if you think back to the previous veepstakes, so many folks soem to be trying out for the job. >> it is watching the newcomers letting it be known that of course i would say yes. john mccain gave mitt romney some advice. >> the primary, the absolute most important aspect is if somebody happened to him, would that person be well qualified to take their place? i happen to believe that was a primary factor in my decision. >> that's the funniest thing that guy has said this year. that the primary factor in choosing sarah palin in 2008 was, you know, she is well qualified to be president of the united states. >> ready for the presidency. 18 months in alaska was clearly the reason to put her on the ticket. the palin -- what really brought about the pay tin election does

speak to the challenge that mitt romney has here. john mccain was sort of in the same position, which is that the base does not necessarily like or trust him. they are waiting for the moment that he sells them out. this is a loyalty test for them so he needs somebody with solid credentials with the conservative base of the party. mccain wanted something that would excite the masses. >> we have got another audition this week. he ended up having to defend his inexperience on national politics. let's listen to that. >> i certainly am not the most experienced person in washington d.c. but by the same token, i certainly have experience at serving in government and particularly in the legislative branch in one of the largest and

more complex states in the country. and the good news is that every day that goes by i gain more experience on these things. >> that's a job interview answer. >> that's right. it is. and he is following along the lines of kelly in laying out his credentials there. i think rubio is an attractive choice. he is from florida. a state with 29 electoral votes. he could close the gap that mitt romney has. i do think that one of the things that all of these potential candidates are taking advantage of is they are raising their national profiles. everything that rubio does from now on will be looked at.

>> you are the senior new jersey political analyst. quickly before we go, the pros and cons of chris christy for vp? >> he would excite the base. he has got charisma. he is basically with them on the economic stuff. they would like chris christy a lot. that is also the con. they would like him too much. it is his volatility and unpredictability, that is what gives his the charisma. you have the risk that he overshadows romney. romney does not want that. but the unpredictability could cause serious headaches. who made him do it? it was chris christy. you can't have your vp doing that. >> thank you both for joining me

tonight. >> coming up, the president holds his lead among women. melissa harris joining me. and as north carolina considers rewriting its constitution to ban same sex marriage, a north carolina pastor steps up and rewrites the question every voter should be asking themselves before they cast that vote tomorrow in north carolina. you will hear what that pastor has to say next. ♪

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>> tomorrow, north carolina voters will be given a chance to rewrite the state constitution, adding to it a ban on same sex marriage. the latest polls indicate that this amendment has majority support in north carolina. the man you just heard believes that is because north carolina voters are not asking themselveses the right question about the amendment. he is the pastor of green leaf christian church. he rose to speak against the amendment at a press conference yesterday. and if the good people of north carolina listen to him, that amendment does not have a chance. >> i would say to the media, they ask people how do you feel about same sex marriage. that's not the question on the ballot. it should have never been asked. you can't vote on religion. that should have never been the

question. the question that should have been raised is do you want to go against constitutional history? and that is since the passage of 13th and 14th and 15th amendment, we have always expanded rights, we have never decreased rights. we know better. the only time we limit it is in 1875, that was the last time we tried this marriage thing. 1875. north carolina. we amended the constitution to disallow interracial marriage. the question should have been do you want to go backwards in constitutional history. the question should have been do you believe in a state's right strategy that seeks to trump the federal protections of the 14th amendment? and you know state's rights is what george wallace and them do.

martin luther king called it nullification. the question should not have been not how you feel about same sex marriage but do you believe that a majority by popular vote should get to decide the rights of the minority? that's a dangerous precedence. because that means that rights of people are determined by who is in the majority at a particular time. do you want to vote on an amendment that makes the only domestic union between a man and a woman, there by undermining the rights of other couples and possibly the rights of children and the rights of those who may be victims of domestic violence? do you want to vote on an amendment where every law school in this state has said it's bad law? do you want to vote on an amendment that the legislature

doesn't allow public comment? do you want to vote on an amendment where they would not even allow lawyers to help them write the law? >> the question should have been all along, do you -- not how you feel about same sex marriage, but do you believe we should vote on discrimination and hate and division in the constitution? when we have carried that message, when we have cut through the tricks of the tea party backed force and asked people do you think we ought to be tampering and trying to mend the 14th amendment? or section one of the constitution, do you believe in the south in the south, where if we had that, if we had had the

vote on if laws that protect us today in the south and some of you we probably put them up to a popular vote today. if we put the voting rights up for a vote today in the south, we put the civil rights act of 64 up for a vote in the south, we put the fair housing act up for a voet in the south it would probably be defeated. and you believe in the south? we ought to be putting people's rights up for a popular vote? we go forward from this face, let all us say that we read and agree with classics, too. we know what a trojan horse looks like. and troy may have been fooled, but we are not. [ applause ] .

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oh my goodness. [ cheers and applause ] oh my. oh wow. >> that applause for michelle obama went on and on and on. and that was before she even began to speak at president obama's kick-off in columbus, ohio. now that the country has been introduced to a republican presidential candidate who was born rich and got ritcher, keeps

his money in strange places and has handed his children a hundred million dollar trust fund, michelle obama re-introduced her husband to ohio this way. >> we all know what our president stands for, right? he is the son of a single mother who struggled to put herself through school and pay the bills. that's who he is. he is the grandson of the woman who woke up before dawn every day to catch a bus to her job at the bank. and even though barack's grandmother worked hard, she was good at her job like so many women, she hit that glass ceiling. and men no more qualified than she was were promoted up the ladder ahead of her. so believe me, barack knows what it means when a family struggles.

he knows what it means when someone doesn't have a chance to fulfill their potential. and what you need to know, america, those are the experiences that have made him the man and the president he is today. >> joining me now is melissa harris perry, host of "melissa harris perry." i am struck that we have a president who has served almost a full term. the country knows everything about this man and here we see michelle obama going back to the politics of personal biography. >> and both her biography and the president's. so just before she began to re-it rate president obama's, she had talked about her own and what it meant to grow up on the south side of chicago. she talked about her father

making a contribution to her college education, even though most of her college education was paid for with student loans sochl generating that sense of empathy between the first family and american citizens who are in this moment of economic struggle. so i don't think it's about we don't remember the obama's biographies, but that they are trying to re-emphasize in the context of the campaign that even though they have been in the white house for the last four years that the white house is relatively new. they are much more so the up from family. a family that has made good on what the american promise is supposed to be. >> certainly she seems to be welcoming any comparison that anyone wants to make when they are hearing this to the romney experience in america. i want to point out a polling item. that is a question of shares your values which normally the republican presidential

candidate has a lead on this but president obama has a ten point lead, 50 to 40% on shares your values. that is normally surrendered by the democratic nominee to the republican nominee. >> this president has taken two things away from republicans. one is strength on foreign policy, sort of his position over the past three years, particularly the killing of osama bin laden and the drawing down of troops in iraq and now afghanistan. and now secondly the sense of i know -- i know what you're suffering from. i have experienced the same kinds of struggles. the issue of the still struggling economy. as long as it is happening in relatively small incriminates, as long as it is ticking down and as long as there are signs of growth. i think that the avengers doing

as well as it did at the box office is a sign of economic prosperity because people just don't go spend money on a family movie unless they feel like they have a little wiggle room in their budget. >> the president has a lead among women voters. it seems that they will be hoping that michelle obama can actually build that lead. >> oh, absolutely. michelle is there as first lady not only for women voters, but undoubtedly for just whole groups of sort of middle class voters who will see michelle and recognize themselves in her. but i think for women voters in particular, because michelle obama was, for so many years, a working spouse and a working mother. working outside the home for pay in addition to her work as a parent. and now over the past four years obviously as first lady she has not worked outside the home but she has a clear sense of all the struggles that contemporary women face.