his campaign is going down. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. bain, bain, go away, come again some other day. >> let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews. in washington leading off tonight, mitt's got a name for his pain -- bain. the pro obama super pac is jumping into the fight hit be romney on bain in five swing states with this. >> he's promised us the same thing he's promised the united states. he'll give you the same thing he gave us. nothing.

>> nothing. the obama campaign's goal is to make this a choice election and make mitt romney unacceptable. also, jp morgan chase's $2 billion losses, a lot of people saying, i told you so. barney frank, as in dodd/frank, has been fighting the republicans for years saying banks like chase need to be regulated so we don't have to bail them out. barney frank joins us tonight. plus the filibusters is a routine use by republicans to require 66 to get anything done. in other words, getting nothing done. how about get rid of it. and mitt romney gets a very low key endorsement from -- can you keep a secret? w. that's in the side show. we begin with my thoughts on why we should junk the filibuster. we begin with mitt romney and bain capital, however. susan page, bureau chief of usa today and the director of the "washington post" media group as well as the political analyst. yesterday we showed you the obama campaign ad going up in

five swing states where the obama super pac, action is doubling down. with this new ad said to run in the same states, let's watch. sntz objective was it make money. whether the companies they came in and worked with made money or not was irrelevant. bain capital always made money. if we lost, they made money. if we survived, they made money. it's as simple as that. he promised us the same things he's promising the united states. he'll give you the same thing he gave us. nothing. he'll take it all. >> he'll take it all. susan, this is rough stuff. this is hitting the guy on the first play of the game. the campaign began about a week ago. talk about gay marriage but the campaign really began at the campaign last weekend, and they hit with everything they've got. this is hard tarkeling tackling. hard assault.

>> here is the obama campaign defining mitt romney before mitt romney has a chance to define himself, and they're saying he's rich, he doesn't know anything about your life, he doesn't care about you? these are very effective attacks. >> i think romney has defined himself, and i think people do know who the guy is, by the way. he's been running for office for years now, we've been covering those campaigns, we've looked deeply at the guy, and what we've seen is a guy who basically runs a campaign on not the other guy. he's never wanted to focus on him. anyway, what do you think of this ad campaign? does he want to define himself? i'm not sure he does. >> i was at obama headquarters the other day, spent the day there. and it's clear to me their overriding strategic doctrine in addition to the gay marriage stuff, they don't want to run away from it, prit marry doctrine is to go after mitt romney. they want to meet him on the economic ground and they want to, as susan said, try to define him more. most people really don't know that much about mitt romney. they really don't know the details of his business career. and what the obama campaign is

dedicated to doing is to unpacking every negative detail they can find about mitt romney's time at bain capital, about his time as governor of massachusetts, even his time running the olympics in salt lake. >> let's be fair -- i don't want to say let's be fair. let's get the whole story. he doesn't want that kind of focus, does he? >> i think what they're saying is, hey, pal -- the obama people are saying, you want to focus on the economy? you want to make this all about the economy? you want to say you don't matter and it's just about obama's record? we're not going to accept that. this is a two-person race and we are going to throw it right back. >> if this guy wanted us to know about himself his way, the so-called mitt, the real mitt. never goes on "meet the press," never does the sunday shows, hides over there in fox land where he gets the reviews he wants. frsz he doesn't want to talk about his religion, okay, that's his

call, but i know why he doesn't want to talk about things like that. it seems like all he wants to do is look at the gdp, it's not growing fast enough so put in the relief pitcher. don't even ask who the relief pitcher is. by the way, santorum is no good, newt is no good, so you have to take me. it's all about process of elimination and he's the last man standing, but don't look at him. so when he makes it as president someday, we have to look at him. my god, he made president because he's the only alternative. >> the obama campaign is determined to not let that happen. >> obama is a president running for reelection. the first step is a referendum on him. >> i agree with him. mitt romney, people want to win that debate. >> here is some of the new numbers in your usa today gallup poll. you have lurched into the popularity of your own poll around here. here it is going on offense for trying to attack romney's business records. let's take it. u.s. voters polled two questions. would the economy improve in four years under a mitt romney presidency, and would it improve if president obama was reelected? 57% said if mitt romney gets elected, the economy will be

better. 44% say it will get better if obama is reelected. that's why he want to keep talking about what? >> so people have greater faith than they do obama in handling the economy. >> why? >> because the economy has been so tough. >> why do they have faith in a guy who hasn't touched it snrs >> because they see him as a business ceo, and that's why his record is focused not on the business in massachusetts, they focus on his calling card, which is his business sense. >> it's the same thing w. did to kerry. you're a soldier, you're a hero, you're a patriot in south vietnam, we're going to nail you. >> i think the obama campaign understands they have to destroy mitt romney's superficial reputation now as a great business manager, or at least an effective business manager, if they're going to win the election. because it is going to be about the economy, and if they don't destroy mitt romney's credibility on that basis, it's going to be a very, very difficult race to win. >> somewhere the president said

that in the last couple days. he said, this is what the election is about. it's about this ability to create jobs and whether his opponent has it or not. >> ferstrom went out to rebutt obama campaign ads. let's watch them. >> i think these attempts by president obama to distract from his own record on the economy is the biggest spoke screen since mount st. helens erupted. we know from our own 401(k) investments that not every stock we buy, not every company we invest in turns out to be a winner. but over the long haul, romney has had many more success than failures, he's learned from both experiences and that's what makes him so qualified to lead on jobs in the economy. >> let me just critique that performance. first of all, they put the guy in these one-liners. i used to write these things. the biggest smokescreen. this is what you do, you come up

with these little, ridiculous, over the top metaphors. this is my favorite. we all know from our 401(k) investments, romney can't do that. he has to put on the surrogate to do it. he can't say, as we all know from our 401 -- he doesn't have a 401, romney. he doesn't have a human normal experience. he's a quarter billionaire. so he has to put a guy on the show, a substitute, to explain american life. could romney say, look, we all know from our own sorrow -- come on. >> in fairness, could president obama say that? >> he could have when he was running the first time. >> he can't say that now, they're both rich guys. okay, romney is extra rich. >> do you know why? likesome people in the media, he wrote his own book. >> the attacks on mitt romney are not only on his business record, they're also on his values.

because what that very affecting steelworker was saying was he didn't care about us. and that's -- he could be a very successful businessman and still not care about average people. >> susan is right. you have to tie the two together and that's what the obama campaign is going to try to do. when you talk to the romney people, as i did in boston last week, stevens is the top media guy for romney, he said, you can't convince people they're dry when they know they've gotten wet. and his point is that somehow, their faith somehow, is that the overriding feeling of the american people of concern about the economy is, in the end, going to turn the obama campaign into a kind of house of cards that's somehow going to collapse at the end. and that may or may not be folly, but that's their view. and the obama campaign is going to do exactly as susan said, attack mitt romney's business record, business management, and tie it to its values, tie it to his character, tie it to the

idea that he's a guy who doesn't care. >> you said something before we came out here, and you're so brilliant sometimes. you really are brilliant sometimes. you said he won the primaries by saying nothing about himself, but i'm not santorum, i'm not newt gingrich, and he wants to win the general election by saying, i'm not barack obama. who is he? is he a guy who is going to look out for the country. is's cold business guy? scrooge? mr. potter? >> yes, he's trying to win by the process of elimination, as you say. >> you said it. >> on the other side, axelrod, who is the top manager for barack obama, he says, you can't win an election by the process of elimination. >> but is that true? >> i don't know. >> you figured it out -- >> i don't know. and they're saying -- axelrod says, no, it's about two people, two candidates and the level of trust and understanding you have with those people.

>> it is tricky to talk religion. i don't think we have to explain our religion. romney is a very family oriented guy, a very religious oriented. if you want it know romney, and talk about his personal terms, and he doesn't tell us much. >>, it's not enough to do it by the process of elimination. the second step is, are you an alternative to the president. >> this is what i always say. >> that's the barron ald reagan got over in 1980, he will then have to face that so that people won't say, is is the pitcher going to do that? >> they're trying to drive him so deep, how is the pitcher on the mound. h how is the i go on the bull pen? do you trust him? >> they are trying to do with bob dole did in 196. drive him so deep into a hole that he won't be able to recover later. >> does that work?

games won at the beginning of this season. >> give us that chair. howard feinman, hanging on for his life. he is hanging on to his can chair. be sure to go to the nbc app featuring our daily trip sheet. pe just don't have good chairs here. you can download it from the app store today. coming up, j.p. morgan lost $2 billion. that has a lot of people saying, i told you so. and the smartest people on the progressive side. we will talk about why we need more on that side so people don't have to bail them out. invent the minivan. ♪ today dodge grand caravan is the most awarded minivan ever.

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this is why we passed wall street reform. the whole point was even if you're smart, you can make mistakes. and since these banks are insured, backed up by taxpayers, we don't want you taking risks where eventually we might end up having to bail you out again. because we've done that, been there. didn't like it. >> a strong voice there by the president. by the way, welcome back to "hardball." president obama on "the view"

making a strong case in light of the $2 billion trading debacle of jp morgan. he emphasized this will be a driving force in the election. . catch this line. >> this, again, is going to be part of what the election is about. we've got real differences here. because governor romney, some of the republican members of congress, and the financial industry, have been arguing that this is unnecessary, that this is impeding capital formation, it's making it harder to lend to businesses, et cetera, and what i've said s look, we want a successful financial industry. that's always been one of the hallmarks of america. but what makes us the best financial industry is transparency, accountability, rules. >> wow. barney frank and robert rice, author of the new e-book, "beyond outrage, what is going on with our economy and our democracy."

and how to fix it, that gets to the heart of it. congressman, over the years i've watched people like you and mr. dingell and mr. markey and henry waxman, you've devoted your careers and given up a lot, and career opportunity, trying to do one thing, keep big capitalism tamed for the average person. it seems to me that romney is saying, don't do that. it just seems to me he and jp morgan say, leave us alone, let us make some money, stay out of our way and the country will be better off. >> he has said that explicitly. he said we should repeal the financial law. i wish we could go back in 2009 when we were voting on this in the house. frankly, the bill isn't as tough as i want it to be in a couple derivatives. it's still tough enough if we get that authority. romney said we should repeal it. he was saying consistently we should repeal it.

a week ago after the j.p. morgan screw-up he amended that to say it should be repealed and replaced. that is in the latest of what i call a series of remits. a remit is when romney has to change his position because he's in a different political place. as we talk now, as of a week ago, the republicans put it through the committee, of which i'm now a minority leader, that would have removed any regulation over the type of trade that jp morgan was engaged in at all, whether it was done by a bank or not. we should remember, these derivatives are dangerous when they're done by banks, they're also dangerous when they're done by others. aig was not a bank, but there was a republican pending bill that went through our committee over democratic opposition that says -- i'm not kidding -- if an american institution conducts derivative transactions overseas to a subsidiary overseas, it's not subject to american regulation. that's the jp morganchase case.

before the world came out they lost 2 billion, they were prepared to say not only did it happen in a bank, but there would be no regulation of that derivative action whatsoever. >> let me get to secretary rice. it seems to me just in terms of the people who don't understand all of this, they love it on wall street. the more complicated the better. haven't they seen all of the movies? haven't they seen hank paulson played by bill hurt, and the margin call, movie after movie saying these guys are ruthless sobs. they'll do anything to make money. don't trust them. keep the lights on them and keep them regulated and watched. by the way, when they get in trouble, they come up with the begging ball. take care of us now. come take care of our billions. they're very big on big government when it comes to saving they're keesters. yet don't they have any shame? that's my question. these guys. >> they have absolutely no shame, and i think most of the

public is very skeptical and distrustful. that's where the tea party movement came from, the bailout of wall street. taet party movement hates wall street as much as -- >> then why are they republican? >> because they feel like the government has been taken over by wall street. big government and big business, they are all in cahoots together. jp morgan's jamie dimon has been doing and wall street as a whole has been trying to erode the dodd/frank bill, trying to provide even more license for what they were doing before. the so-called volker rule under the dodd/frank law is sort of glass steigle act, the old glass steigle from the 1930s, separate commercial investment banking, it was thrown out in 1989, and a lot of people felt it had to come back. the dodd/frank act is a great act as far as it goes, but it

did not resurrect glass steigle. wall street has been trying to get rid of even the volker rule now i think there is a political possibility -- barney frank knows better than i do -- but i think there is a possibility to come on much tougher at least for democrats and the obama administration to say, now is the time to bring back glass steigle. >> let me go back to congressman frank. >> you are a villain to the bad guys, i think. you're like franklin roosevelt. he used to say, i relish their hatred. i want those guys to hate me. do you feel like that, that the big business tycoons that love as much cowboy license as possible, to make as much money with as much risk as possible, who are you to them? you're the guy that says, no, can i can't play that way. >> chris, i came to be the greatest fundraiser candidate of anybody in america. the last time i ran for office, i raised double money.

i raised several million for myself but i raised several million for my opponent. the republican who ran against me announced he filed his sc forms. until the primary in september, for about a year, they only raised thousands of dollars. as soon as he was a nominee against me, he raised several million dollars in six weeks, couldn't keep track of it. yes, the volker rule is enforced. and i believe that we have the rules in there -- we have the one that would allow what jp morgan chase did to make it illegal but that's not enough. they weren't derivatives back then. there wasn't securitization where banks made loans and sold the loan and didn't care who borrowed. we have derivatives. even if jp morgan chase didn't do the derivatives, they're still dangerous. they need to be regulated. remember, aig was an entity that got into serious trouble with derivatives and they couldn't

pay it off and they weren't a bank. >> explain the volker rule in common language. >> if you were a bank and received deposits and because of that you get positive assurance from the fdic, you may service your clients but you cannot engage in trading on your own account. you can lend money -- banks are supposed to do that. we've forgoton that. they're supposed to take money from people who have excess capital, bundle it up and give it to people who will produce goods and services. if you're a customer, a money manager, you can do things for your customer. that's the customer's money. but you can't take the money that the federal government insures and get into these bets. by the way, interesting point that the chief of staff on the committee of my side pointed out to me on this floor. you're going to cut their profits, but hedging isn't supposed to be a profit-making operation.

>> exactly. >> let me get back it mr. rice. bob, let me ask you this about your book and what you think this election is about. bottom line, what's it about? this whole question of fairness, of power, what? >> it's about whether we want a society in which a very small -- in fact, a getting smaller group of people are going to treat it like a plutocracy in which they run our economy and they run our democracy. this is where we're heading right now. this is what we're talking about. mitt romney is the poster child for that kind of plutocratic society. i think what the white house and democrats need to do, is not only link mitt romney to the character issue, he's the kind of person who, as a private equity manager, did this, i think they ought to link him to the entire derivative in society controlled by a smaller group of plutocrats. >> it's getting to be more like

latin america was 50 years ago. 1 or 2% running everything. >> good luck with your book. it's called "beyond outrage" and it's a e-book. by the way, getting bigger than print books these days. up next, george w. bush finally gets around to endorsing mitt romney. that's weird. boy is this weird. maybe he didn't want the endorsement. it's so short, it's like a doorway type thing. this is "hardball," the place for politics. [ male announcer ] imagine facing the day

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hmmm. for half the calories plus veggie nutrition. could've had a v8. mitt romney, presidential presumed nominee for president mitt romney once lost $2 billion. $2 billion. then he found it in another pair of pants. oh, there's my other pants. $2 billion. >> back to "hardball." dave this is side show and david letterman said what we hear so much from mitt romney, he just fails to come across as your average american guy.

inside the actor's studio thinks he has the solution for mitt romney. his laugh. here he is speaking directly to romney. >> let's start with your laugh. >> i live for laughter. ha, ha, ha, ha. >> it isn't working. it's inert. it just doesn't come across as genuine. worst of all, it's mirthless, which is to say, while you expect us to be amused, you're not the least amused yourself. i would advise those of you watching to freeze the frame and then put your hands on the lower part of your face and look at your eyes. there is no pleasure there. >> is that powerful stuff? james lipton getting to the heart of the matter or the lack thereof. next up, former president george w. bush gave his endorsement of mitt romney today in washington. wonder how you missed the big speech? you're not alone. there was none. in fact, here's how word of the endorsement got out.

quote, i'm for mitt romney, bush told abc news this morning, as the doors of an elevator closed on him. after he gave a speech on human rights a block from his old home -- the white house. that's all it was. a four-word endorsement through the door. although given the backhanded shows, the support we've gotten from other candidates and other republicans, it's quite in sync we've been hearing, the lack of enthusiasm in those endorsements. finally, i was in jeopardy last night my third time out, and let's say things evened out. i won the first time. i came within inches of winning the second time. this time out, i had some stiff competition. at times brilliant robert gibbs president obama's first press secretary. and the great lucy o'leary from cnn. they were good. i was not. >> $200 for this category. >> all right, pay attention now. >> at blank, soldier. four letters. >> at ease, soldier.

what is ease, soldier. >> ease. yes, all right. less than a minute to go now. >> full name of the u2 pilot shot down over the soviet union in 1960. chris? >> who was gary powers. >> we need the full name. >> who was gary powers? >> no. >> lindsay? >> who was francis gary powers. >> that's it. yes. full name. lindsay benefits. she selects. >> what are you going to say, francis. okay, i can say it now. let's leave it at that. anyway, up next, who is going to win those critical states come november? you're watching "hardball." we're going to talk about it here, the place for politics. high schools in six states enrolled in the national math and science initiative... ...which helped students and teachers get better results in ap courses. together, they raised ap test scores 138%. just imagine our potential... ...if the other states joined them. let's raise our scores.

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i'm milissa rehberger, here

is what is happening. president and michelle obama have assets between 2.6 and $3 million, aconsidereding to documents released by the white house. john edwards and his daughter kate may be called to his trial. . dominique strau filing a counter suit against those accusing him of assault. now back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." we're less than six months away sounts like it sounds like it is right around the corner. now from election day with both candidates with a sliver of votes and a handful of swing states. here's what it looks like right now. democrats have 231 electoral votes in votes that are solidly or leading democratic. the pattern is pretty strong there. republicans are leading in

states with 197 electoral votes. 110 are up for grabs in the remaining states. here is how the race looks in states according to the real clear politics average. president obama leads in nevada by eight points. in pennsylvania he's up by seven, in ohio by five, in virginia by four. florida it's a total toss-up at this point. haley barber governor of mississippi, also served as our nc chairman. gentlemen, i want to hit you with the question that jumps into my mind if i were either of these candidates or their top campaign advisers. what would be the screwy things i would be worrying about between now and november that are under the control of god or whoever else but you have no control over. first off, haley barbour. >> first i don't worry about things i have no control over. i think what these guys in their campaigns are focused on, yeah, are some variables they'll have to deal with, but they're not worried about things they literally have no control over.

obama wants to make this election not a referendum on his record, not a referendum on his policies or the results of his policies. you'll see their advertising, as you all talked about a little earlier in the show. they're advertising is going to attack romney's character. he's a bad person. he doesn't care about people like you and me. he's selfish, he's greedy, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. romney, on the other hand, will be very negative, but it will be obama's policies that made it harder to create jobs, obama's policies that made the economy worse, obama's policies that made gasoline prices double, obama's policies are going to make health insurance and health costs go up. >> i agree with you except he's never said his character, he just said what romney did for a living was basically predatory. his private equity firm is basically a chop shop that doesn't care about jobs, it cares about the wealth investment of the company, not the companies they take over. >> there's a lot of companies in my states and other states that were failing. somebody came in and infused some capital in there, and maybe

they did have to reduce the work force 10 or 20%, but the other 80% are still there working. >> yeah. okay. let me go back to sam stein on the same question. i want to get back to the uncontrollables out there. i pick up the newspaper every day and see effects going on about our economy. why is american business sitting on 2 trillion bucks? that may be more important than the billion they're spending trying to destroy this guy in advertising. why are consumers sitting on it? they read the paper and they say europe couldn't do anything, egypt couldn't do anything. what's go on in this crazy world? your thoughts. >> i was in chicago with my great colleague, howard fineman yesterday. they readily acknowledged they can move the margins a couple points here and there, but that would all be neglected if a financial crisis hit europe again and the credit markets dried up. there are things outside their control that they are worried about, and i think the governor is right that there is little

you can do about it special well this congress. there is very little that the president can pass now that might stimulate economic growth, but there is a lot that could go wrong, and i think they're all just waiting to see if there is another domino to fall. >> what did you think about that joke we just played from james lipton who does acting? everybody likes that stuff. he says the guy doesn't have an authentic laugh, he's basically a performance artist who isn't really that guy he's showing us to be. not even his laugh is real. >> let me confess, i was walking into the studio so i didn't see it. >> let me ask you about this because you're a personal powell. do you think this guy is a visceral personal powell? >> i think romney is a genuine person but he doesn't connect with people like bill clinton, he doesn't connect with people like ronald reagan. >> or you. >> he doesn't have those candidate skills. but he is a very capable guy who is for the right things, and we talk about $2 trillion sitting

on the sideline and obama can't do anything about it because of this congress. well, the $2 trillion is sitting on the sidelines because of the democrat can congress he controlled when he wanted to give them the highest tax increase in the country fell primarily on employers. it was a plan where you put every budget he proposed -- >> bush is living under a tax program right now. george w. bush's tax regime is what we're under right now. all the tax cuts that bush wanted are still in place. we're living in a world designed fiscally by george w. bush and obama hasn't been able to change it an inch. >> just a quick point. obama gets attacked on occasion for extending the bush tax cuts, and then we turn around and get people like the governor who says he's done a lot to raise taxes. there is a great bloomberg piece that says regulation is down on obama.

fewer regulations. he gets attacked as this regulatory dictator. i think the facts sometimes get in the way of these attacks. but it is a truth that the republican congress has stymied the legislation and i don't see how that is controversial. they have very little legislative authority for what's going on, so that's the wish for things they want to do. but they've been pushing that for a couple of months now. the problem is they just can't move congress. >> haley? >> when the president had congress totally under his control, even the democrat congress would pay us all the tax increases -- >> why is everybody spooked? >> because he keeps coming back and saying i have a trillion and a half more. >> the republicans control the house of representatives. the house of representatives sets tax policy in this country. there is no way they wouldn't being under the control of

boehner. you're running 2-year-old campaign ad here. >> do you think these businesses won't see what happens after the election? you think they will invest trillions of dollars not knowing if obama will get the tax cut he has been -- a tax increase he has been asking for the day he got in office? >> now we are talking about might of, might of, might of. >> let me ask you about something i know you're good at. personality politics. is there any way obama can pick a running mate with a little more color? for example, would you go outside the box for people like mickey haley, or would you just white bread, to be blunt about it, just boring. people like portman. ryan. thune. would you go for excitement and personality or go with someone who fit more in the ibm business mode of romney?

>> as you know, chris, campaigns will look at this and say, what is our goal for vice president? do no harm, carry a big stick we wouldn't otherwise carry? you night the party? >> dot work, who would it be? >> if you're trying to. get ohio. force would they give you ohio. do you need rubio to carry florida? nobody thinks you're going to be successful in reshuffling the deck. and the good news for romney is he doesn't need do that. he doesn't need to have someone help him. >> it's not going to work, there's no big game change perz here. >> a lot of good policy. >> he is good at this. some stein, thank you. up next, a disagreement over policy. why does it take over 60 votes to get anything done in the senate? because republicans made the filibuster routine. and it is killing government in this country. this is "hardball," a place for politics. i know you love it. eye health . would you take it? well, there is.

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all right, sir, i guess i'll just have to speak to the people

of my state from right here. i tell you one thing, wild horses aren't going to drag me off this floor until people hear what i have to say. even if it takes all winter. >> one of my favorite movies, mr. smith goes to washington. the filibuster as is dramatized to mythic proportions in that film but that is very little rezim lens to now the filibuster is used today. there are no floor shows. in fact the senate doesn't have to replane on the floor to hold up senate action. the republicans have taken the action to extremes. since 2007, just five years ago, democrats have been forced to break or try to break republican filibuster threats 350 times. that's almost one every five days. the result is near paralysis in the u.s. congress for anything to get done. there needs to be super majority of 60 votes, in other words. and many now say they've had enough of it. senator tom udahl,ing advocate of how filibusters are used end

ezra klein is a columnist, who i'm falling in love with every time he writes. ezra, your column today wasburbd the motion to, the move the previous question. all he had to do was get 50 votes and save move the previous question. stop the bs. since then we've had this growth of the mayhem of the filibuster. we only got a few minutes. with are we better off without the filibuster or with it? >> you ask should the majority be accountable for what they have done. the minority holds up action and then the public, which is not composed of congressional reporters.

they judge the majority on what the minority kept them from doing. people don't know why things aren't happening. that makes them angry. >> you can see the president, if he's re-elected will have 52, at the most senators. if he loses, he'll have enough. nobody will have 60 and therefore nothing will get done for another two years. how can anybody defend that 60 vote rule that the filibuster entails? >> i don't think you can defend it. i think that's the reason we need filibuster reform. we led the fight last time. we got 46 votes to change. if we had 51, we could have changed the rules. i think we would have a much more responsive institution. the senate could be working on doing the things the american people wants it to do. >> why can't you pass a motion to bring back the move to

previous debate and forget the other rules? >> you could do that. there's a variety of things. i think there should be a talking filibuster. like mr. smith goes to washington, you got to put some effort in in order to do the delay. let the american people. >> why did previous senators get rid of that rule that you have to sleep out there. you have to go in the bunk beds in the back room. you had to go around the clock reat a ti rotating a number of senators. why did they get rid of that? >> we could do that today. we could still, if we had a will, to require people to come in and go through the debate. the problem is it's very one sided. the majority has to produce 51 senators to be on the floor at all times and the minority only has to have a couple of senators

there. that really is a one sided contest and when we have tried it, when we have tried it, they ended up caving in and allowed certain things to move forward. the central issue here is harry reid said the agreement, the gentleman's agreement isn't working. that's big because it's normally taken leaders in the senate. >> last word. your thoughts. do you think based upon what you've been able to study, any chance this will be declared unconstitutional? >> i don't think it's likely. one real quick thing. if romney does come in, budget reconciliation can be protected from the filibuster. the ryan budget can be passed with 51 votes, but you couldn't do it with immigration. >> i know. democrats can't produce positive

government but republicans can still cut, cut, cut, using reconciliation. thank you. we'll have more time for you next time. thank you for coming on. when we return, let me finish with why i think we need to junk the filibuster. the capital one cash rewards card gives you a 50% annual bonus. and who doesn't want 50% more cash? ugh, the baby. huh! and then the baby bear said, "i want 50% more cash in my bed!" phhht! 50% more cash is good ri... what's that. ♪ you can spell. [ male announcer ] the capital one cash rewards card. the card for people who want 50% more cash. what's in your wallet? ha ha. ♪ ♪

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let me finish with this. i want to american government to work. i want elections to matter, to have congress when people decide in the voting booth. i want this to be alive with new ideas, approaches and experimentation. we have problems like out of control immigration. the plight of you are inner cities. it's a doable list, don't you think? let's try to get working on that list. let's set about fixing these challenges. there's no reason it's going to change things. nothing's going to get done. another two years of nothing will clear the senate. they won't be able to deal with anything like passing a fair and forcible immigration policy. let's say romney pull a squeaker. the republicans will have the house and could have the senate

as well. that will give them just enough power to push through a big tax cut for the well tli and a big cut in social economic program frs the working poor and middle class because they can do it through reconciliation. this is the big difference. the big reason why democrats junk the filibuster. they're not doing anything or for cutting. if you want to do something, it's a towering obstacle against you. 60 votes to get them. look at the stimulus package. look at the health care bill. think of what obama could have done if he only needed 50 votes. think of what could have been done if you have majority rule. it's a cause that makes a point and clarifies the real difference between the two major parties. democrats want to use government to play a positive role. republicans are con tent with a process that bends the system towards those who want to cut