administration is aa pealing, forcing more oversight? >> yes, the obama administration is appealing it. that may be unpopular because people may not want it know he is overseeing a government doing that. we don't have a final ruling but they are saying there shouldn't even be a day in court. >> you will keep us posted, i know. ari melber, thank you. chris matthews is up right now. pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews in boston. let me start with mitt romney's rules of engagement. a man of faith, family and business web and that, ladies and yes is about it. this is what the press, and his opponent is not supposed to ask

about. we are asked to let a man lead us without knowing what he is all about. he hold himself well beyond the rope line. who complains about the need to explain himself. there is something strangely and defiantly weird in a man demanding to enter the public world who demand, commands is a better word, that we keep our distance. do not try too hard to enter his world. we can't talk about his faith. we can't talk about his time as governor. we can't talk about bain capital. what can we talk about? his choice in cadillacs. the car czar for the obama administration and "time" magazine's mark halperin cnbc political analyst. by the way, in your interview, you asked if his business record was open to scrutiny. let's watch his response. >> do you welcome scrutiny of your business record, is that right? >> what i can tell you is this, the fact is that i spent 25 years in the private sector.

and that obviously teaches you something that you don't learn if you haven't spent any time in the private sector. if you said to me, tell me what you learned from your schooling that would help you be a president, that is like well, how do i begin going through a list like that. you learn through life's experience. the president's experience has been exclusively in politics. and as a community organizer. both of these are fine areas of endeavor. but right now, we have an economy in trouble. and someone who spent their career in the economy, is more suited to help fix the economy than someone who spent his life in politics and as a community organizer. >> mark, what did you make of that interview? >> that's part of what he said, chris. and people can go to the website and read the full answer on time.com. i think his answered three basic parts to it. two of which i think are politically effective. the general answer of just, business if you're in business, you know how to make the economy work. i don't think that's

particularly effect. he went to that well as he normally does. part of what you showed there, i think his critique of the president, while the white house will push back on it, i think a lot of voters will find that compelling to say, i have been in the private sector, he hasn't, you don't like the economy. part of his answer was quite effective, we didn't see it there, where he talked about energy. first time i have heard him drill down and say, when ways at bain, this is the specific thing i i learned about business that i can apply. if yir energy costs are high in a business, you can't meet payroll. you can't be competitive with other countries that is something he says an mates his energy policy. i think that line could be effective if he flushes it out. >> wlet me go to steve ratener. i've known you a while and you worked pretty closely with politicians as reporter and then as a politico contributor and a man close to a lot of tlem and

to the business people, you are in business yourself up there under new york. there has been a reason why business types, and i don't mind using the phrase like romney, and i don't mean just private equity, businessmen have not made political leaders. it seems like a different world. have you a different press. different isolation. can you pick the press you want to talk to. you can pick the people you want it talk to. politicians have to swim in a world of people and be concerned about an awful lot of people that aren't involved directly in making money for them. >> there is no question about that, chris. they are somewhat different sets of skills. you articulated it pretty well. ceo has a deal with employees and shareholders but it is different than legislating and building consensus and the record of business people going to war. treasury secretary and other jobs is at best for a mix because most businessmen are in demand and control ceo kind of approach, it is quite different.

>> let me ask you about bain. he seemed to give -- i mean, mark is spart, shifting quickly away from it to obama. and he said, i can't give you a whole list of things. he doesn't want this to be a choice election. he wants it to be about the performance of the president, right? that's where he wants the focus of the voter to be, on obama, not him. >> i watched that clip of mark's interview. i was astonished of how quickly he pivoted. he never answered the question. he started talking about the president as a community organizer. mitt romney put bain on the table by creating's created a hundred thousand jobs while there. he made this issue in the campaign. he put himself forward as job creator in chief. once he did that, and what is a very speeshs way, i think it is totally fair game for press, democrats, for anybody who wants to, to dissect that job creation record and see what it amounts to. >> here we are on the interview.

mark, you asked romney about the president's focus on bain. he told you he welcomes that before quickly pivoting, as steve said, to the president's record. let's watch that action here in your interview. >> so when the president said he wants to folk us a lot of the election debate on your career at bain capital, do you welcome that? >> of course, i would like it also focus on his record. what is it that he has done as the president of the united states over the last four years? has he established the revitalization he promised to bring to us? dehold unemployment below 8%? it's been 39 months now. that hasn't happened. he promised it would happen by virtue of his stimulus. gasoline prices, are people happy with those. home prices, are they happy with home prices? level of foreclosures? do they think someone can do better? this president blames other people for the fact he's been unsuccessful in turning around this economy. i think the reason you see across the country people say they would like it try someone

new is because they believe this president, while he may be a nice guy, is simply not up to the task of helping guide an economy. >> mark, what do you make of his nervousness, calmness, could you read anything into that? people have told me he looks a bit nervous there. i can't tell from the small clip. >> he is getting over a head cold. so you got to game hif him a little slack on that. i think one of his great strengths is he is not all caught up in the election. you and i both covered presidential candidates. they are constantly saying, what is the other guy saying, what are newspapers saying, what are the polls saying. this interview was longer than 30 minutes, one of the longest he's done, i found him to be very calm. same guy, from the first time i met him, calm, relaxed. just like the president, believes mitt romney would be a horrible president, governor romney in his heart believes the president has been a horrible president. that gives him the ability to talk about this quite naturally

for him. he is not making this up. this is what he believes. >> i trust you as a reporter, you are one of the best. but why does he have this weird dichotomy where he will do a formal sit-down with you, because he obviously respects you, but then is very wary of the rope line. says the loopiest things. then when he does almost like a business press interview, he is soiled. can't talk spontaneously on the rope line. he seems nervous about it. he likes formal debate structures with you? what is it by b a formality can you figure out. >> he has a severe allergy to rope that causes him to get loopy. not everybody is good at everything at politics. i think he learned to not talk on the rope line most of the time but sometimes he slips up. he is not a great off the cuff politician. it's still the case. this is why the debates will be an interesting challenge for him. it is still the case that sometimes, when a certain button gets pushed like on a rope line or debate where he is weak, he

is not that good. but over all, on the interview today, on rope lines, most debates in republican nominating process, his skills are pretty good. when he is prepared, he is pretty good. >> i agree. let me go back it steve. you do have a pretty good college of these kinds ever people. he doesn't seem like the guy who wants to talk about his private life. certainly doesn't want to talk about relikon bp that's a right he has to keep that to himself. doesn't want to talk about experience as governor, moderate governor in massachusetts. he really doesn't like this scrutiny of some of the -- a lot of the bain stuff. can you get away with being elected president and having this shield around you? >> i don't think so. i think people expect something different from a president or any politician running for office than they do from a ceo. i do think that part of his problem connecting with people is the fact that he doesn't want to do any of the things that you just mentioned. i think the thing in massachusetts may be different. which is, that i think there are questions about his record in

massachusetts. they there is a soundbite about massachusetts being 47 out of 50 in job creation. i don't think he wants romney care because that is clearly a toxic issue politically for him. and so he is trying to dodge and weave. i agree with you. i think we have several months in which people will try to run him to ground and i think he will have trouble spornding. >> thanks for saving the american car industry. i think that is quite a notch on anybody's belt. including yours. thank you steve ratener. thank you mark halperin. a big interview. coming up, republicans say it everyday. president obama raising taxes. his spending is out of con toll. he apologized for america. the fact is, not one of those three things is true bp we did some work here. our producers and i. we have some facts for you. spending hasn't been up. it's flat. he didn't care what pakistanis thought. he got bin laden and killed him. this guy is not what republicans say he is.

you ought to know that sms swing time, ecop my struggling nationally but lat better than many swing states. wait until you hear this. where it will matter most, he is doing his best. we are looking at the great divide, or are we, among the elite who like cory booker. the who like the money and the regular file and rank guys. let me finish with knock-knocks on president obama. why they are a joke. and this is "hardball," the place for politics.

troubling numbers for president obama. the biggest swing state on the map. let's check the "hardball" score board. here it is. a new quinnipiac poll out of florida gives romney six-point lead over the president. 47-41. big swing from the polls we have seen recently, showing a much tighter contest down there. romney by 6 in florida. we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] the inspiring story

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back to "hardball." there's been a flood of dishonesty coming from republicans as they try to reshape the image of president obama ae record the last four years. they want you to think the president's ballooned government spending. that's not true. for four years running now spending has run basically flat as a pancake at the federal level. nor is it true he raised taxes. bush's tax rates are still in effect even though karl rove will try to convince you otherwise. what do they want you to think? they want you to think he didn't order the death of osama bin laden and that he has been ap l apologizing all over for united states. joan, i have to tell you, every once in a while i come across a fact that blows me away. look at the part, this is not the true part, this is the false hood. this is the new ad from karl rove's group, crossroads gps which says president obama

engaged in massive spending increases. let's watch it. >> obama started spending like our credit cards have no limit. we've had stimulus and bailouts. obama added almost $16,000 in debt for every american. how will my kids pay that off when they can't even find jobs? now obama want more spending and taxes. that won't fix things. i had so many hopes. cutting taxes and debt and creating jobs. that's the change we need. >> mitt romney likened obama's spending to an inferno. let's watch him. >> rather than putting out that spending fire, he's been feeding it. he has spent more, and borrowed more. the time has come for a president, a leader, who will lead. i will lead us out of this debt and spending inferno. >> not true. the only problem with republicans trying to paint president obama as a reckless spender is it is not true at all. market watch point out that federal spending is rising at

the slowest rate. in fact, look there since 1950. take a look at that bar chart there. for four years, fiscal year '09 through fiscal year '13, we are heading into, tho change. about $3.5 trillion right through. joan, every once in a while i'm amazed. i have heard so much about how federal spending is spiking every year. you hear the ad that rove put out and you are hearing every year it is ticking upward. it is incredibly flat, government spending, federal spending. >> it is. this market piece got a lot of attention because it flies in the face of what a lot of people believe, even democrats, chris. i've been trying to think about it, what is the biggest lie they told so far. birtheris many is vile but a crack pot. fringe, this may be the biggest. >> trump is still pushing it. >> and joe, the crack pot fringe.

but this one, take sheer men days et and multiply it by the number of people who believe it. this to me, that the joan walsh formula for the biggest lie, this to me is the biggest lie and frankly devastating, when you look at numbers. i mean, actual per capita spending per american dropped under president obama. it is partly -- the administration is pushing this and jay carney practically swore at today's briefing, don't believe the republican bs. but they've got to get better getting this stuff out. >> the phrase big lie is terrible, of course. but in this case there's an effective use of relentless not truth telling. david? >> well, there are so many candidates for the biggest slide, despite joan's favorite. one is that the stimulus created no new jobs, which eric cantor and others were saying. i this by how they get away with this and why they get away with it. we were just watching mark

halperin's interview with mitt romney mp in that interview, romney said once again barack obama promised he would keep the stimulus below 8%. he never made that promise. others have said that's a lie. and yet mitt romney keeps saying it again and again and again. i was just wishing for mark to stop the interview just there and say, wait a second, that's really not true, is it? can you defend this comment bp but as long as mitt romney and others can keep saying things like that and feed an impression out there, even if it has no basis, they will keep doing it. the fact checking doesn't stop them. >> the word whole, by the way, is dishonest. spiking up to double digits the minute he got into office and he was trying to get it down to 8 and it is down to 8.1. christine roman, economics person, said it was 8. but the word hold it, as if it was way down below 8% and he was

keeping it from going up. >> it didn't make sense. >> it is dishonest. >> one lie after another. >> here is another one, taxes. ail three of us watched obama lose one fight after another trying to get rid of bush tax rates. they get it both way webs joan. they attack him for having raised rates from bush's level when he lost every one of the fights to try to do it. so they wack him from both sides. they say, he tried to raise the taxes. oh, he did raise them, but he didn't. we still have bush's tax policies right now. our economic fiscal policy is basic lot bush tax rates right now. >> right. and in fact -- there is more to say. he cut taxes. he cut taxes in the first two years through -- >> payroll. >> the tax credit. then followed up with payroll tax cut. so actually he cut taxes for most americans and hasn't raised them to my americans.

i think maybe the tanning tax that snooki was so upset about in the affordable care act. >> okay i heard about the tanning tax. let's go to romney's dishonesty here. let's go -- skip one, move that. let's go to another attack. always around the country, around the world, weak on national defense. here he is, here is romney again with that old song that he is always apologizing. let's watch. >> internationally, internationally president obama adopted a appeasement strategy. he believes pler kae role as leader in the world is a thing of the past and he apologizes for america. and i will never apologize for the greatest nation on the history of the earth. >> the president took on credits about his national security record during press briefing last december. let's listen to the president. >> ask osama bin laden and the 22 out of 30 top al qaeda leaders who have been taken off

the field whether i engage in appeasement. or whoever is left out there. ask them about that. >> david, appeasement has a horrible ring to it, of can course. and -- and they don't mind using it. >> it goes back to the nazi and appeasing hitler. it is an awful word and there is no basis for this. ask limb fhim for an example of appeasement. libya, that's an incident in which the president pushed the european allies to go further than they were willing to go to take on khadafi's killing machine threatening civilians. the president makes a good case on not appeasing al qaeda, can which is our biggest threat. mitt romney is saying russia is our number one geo-political foe, can which is not true. and blaming the president for appeasing unidentified enemies. it is the type of thing that

shouldn't passfully kind of laugh test. you shouldn't be allowed in the room with positions like that. but because it feeds this notion that obama is an amateur, that he is not really american, can't really care about america and american values, it finds a foot hold among those out there who are already skrept cal of the president and red meat for those folks. it is kind of sad that romney has to sink that low and can't have an honest debate over foreign policy and national security differences. >> he doesn't know anything about foreign policy. >> i know. >> it seems to me, and david, he doesn't know -- i'm no hawk. but i have been reading a lot about reagan lately. he spent a lot of time trying to get gadhafi and people of libya. let's not forget the people. those people got rid of this bad guy. w. talked like the macho man about getting the bad guys in the war on terrorism.

in terms of the war on terrorism, i think the sheet that the president ran through, the bad guys at the top of the list, the 30 something people, he has done pretty good at fighting the war on terrorism. so even on their own score sheet, he should be tlir hero. barack obama should be a hero to the hawks and the right wing. >> he should be their hero. and you know, i have to call ourselves and the rest of the media, on the carpet here, too, chris. we've got to find ways -- i don't know if mark halperin should have jump need that interview. i would like to see that too, david. maybe it wasn't the time. but certainly in print and broadcast, every time we report that mitt romney once again said barack obama apologizes for america, reporters should be requires to say, as a matter of fact, you know, msnbc has found that he never once apologized for america. there's got to be a way to just make this a reporting convention. >> there is a catch 22 there.

there's a catch 22, joni. we will never get that interview. >> no. >> because we will keep doing that. he won't listen to -- it won't get a second interview. we won't get a second one. if mark has lace need him, like david and i would like to -- >> well that's part of the problem. if you don't, then you are enabling him to use you as a platform to say things that aren't true. the other day he gave a speech in which romney says if obama is re-elected and obamacare is in, then it will involve half of the government. unless someone gets in his face about it, he is not going to stop and some voters will actually believe that. that's the sad thing. aep that's what is infortunate about it. it is not just cable chatter here. this really matters when it comes to picking a president. >> right. >> he will be president and his press can conferences will have participation from forbs to fox.

anyway, they will give goodant views. thank you david corn. thank you joan walsh. wait until you hear the brain dead answer repeated over and over by united states congressman whob still, believe it or not, is still in office about what he said about the president not being an american. finally this guy is caught by a good piece of work by a local journalist out there in his street. tomorrow newt gingrich will join us. we will have a lot of fun looking back over his late great presidential campaign, and we will have some real interesting back and forth with the newtster. i'm glad he's coming on. this is the place for politics. [ female announcer ] e-trade technology

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back to "hardball." now for the side show. ad wars last week, romney ran his first out of the november election.

it is what romney would do on day one, he says. a couple of comics did some editing. here is letterman. >> what would a romney presidency be like? day one, president romney immediately approves the keystone pipeline. introduces tax cuts and reforms and issues the order to begin replacing obamacare. day two, mitt row knee is reminded hi business hiss wife, ann, that he lost to president obama to a landslide. that's what a romney presidency will be like. >> i'm mitt romney, and i approve this message. >> that one is called day two pf taking things in another direction, here is jimmy kimmel. >> what with a romney presidency be like? day one, machines, trucks, mexicans, an american flag. guys wear be hats, ties and tractors. a black lady, more american flags, dockers, happy old guy. black friend, more american friends. i'm mitt romney and i approve this message.

>> i wish the original was that smart. last week i told you about congressman mike kaufman, colorado right winger who said this about president obama. ? >> i don't know whether barack obama was born in the united states or not. i don't know. but i do know this -- that in his heart, he is not an american. he is just not an american. >> kaufman later said he misspoke but a local newspaper reporter actually tried getting coffman to elaborate. >> do you feel voters are owed a better explanation than just, i miss smoke? >> i think, as i stand by my statement. that misspoke and i apologized. >> who are you apologizing to?

>> you are a very forthcoming guy. we talk to you all the time. who is telling you not to speak. >> i misspoke and i apologize. >> did you think it would go over with in albert county and not say something like that in the stub suburbs. >> i stand by my statement that i misspoke and i apologize. >> is there anything i can ask you that you would say something different. >> i stand by my statement that i misspoke and i apologize. >> secretary of state ken bennett last week floated the idea of not putting president obama on the state ballot if the state of hawaii won verify his birth in the united states. yesterday hawaii put out the president's birth certificate again and bennett said now he now apologizes if he is embarrassed his state. these guys are unbelievable. up next, while the economy isn't up nationally yet, it is in key states. that's good news for president

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i'm sue herrera with your cnbc market wrap. dow closing well off the session lows. finishing down 6. s&p up 2 and nasdaq up 11. there are no talks with facebook regarding a switch in their listing if fr nasdaq contrary to some report. home sales raising 3.3 percent in april. oil prices fell below 90 bucks a barrel. hugh lit packards earnings bet estimates but also plans to cut some 20,000 jobs. that's it for cnbc, we are first in business worldwide. now back to "hardball" and chris.

welcome back to "hardball." the economy has been a drag on president ba's reelection efforts but where it'll be decided is in the swing states. the story is much different there. in 2008 obama moved nine states going from bush, he won them, then go for bush in 2004. brought limb into his column. today in five states, ohio, virginia, iowa, new mexico, and colorado, the unemployment rate is below the national average. in iowa's case far below. in short, the jeeg fgeography m working for the president. sam, let me ask you just generally about the way the local economies -- up here in boston would say, or in cambridge, that all politics is local. my question, do people go by what they see on the economic

reports like we get on cnbc and the financial pages? or do they go by what they sense locally? >> i would have to guess they go by what they sense locally. like you said, all politics is local but you get a sense of what is going on by the community around you, by the main street in your town, by businesses you know are hiring. so in this case, you're right, obama has an interesting map of states that are battle grounds that have done by and large better than the national average with respect to the unemployment rate. there are states that are h higher such as nevada and florida. but it is interesting that some of the key battle grounds states have recovered or never had a recession. quite like the national averages were. and i think benefits them in the long run. >>es ra, the president bought a ticket on the auto industry. he bet on an industrial policy as i used to call it rather than buying in rand, like some other guys do in the morning, praying to her. he can didn't trust the markets. will he benefit interest that,

saying ohio, where you have a resurge in auto industry? >> i think watt to see whether people see if will work is to look at inco-heerns of the romney campaign on it. what is important for the auto bill is that there was a very different proposal, different message so romney is very quiet on what he would have done things like tarp. he did say he would not have bailed out the auto industry. he would have sent them into bankruptcy. every understood forcing into bankruptcy court would have meant liquidation. in the detroit repress he wrote a second outbid and said that what obama did made things worse a couple weeks ago houses communications director said that the obama campaign is frustrated because they just followed mitt romney's advice on the auto bailout so the success of that is attributable to mitt romney. think think their inability of lou to deal with this shows how

touchy they are and effective it has been in some of the states. >> you know, it impossible to imagine, suppose romney wins for whatever reason, perhaps the economy, and people say he won by arguing rock and roll capitalism, lower taxes for corporations, all the good stuff that got us into this mess and he rolled to victory by saying let's go back and do it again p bp. >> yeah. it's gamble on his part but the gam sbl that there is some sort of amnesia along the american populous as to what got us into the crisis in the first place. it goes beyond that. when he talked about the foreclosure crisis in nevada, he said we need to let it hit rock bottom before we do anything else. that that a style of deregulation that two years ago would have seemed crazy but i think it gets him somewhere politically because the american public has to some extent moved on. if you look at some of the

polls, there is a large blame placed on bush for getting us into this mess. but romney has done very well to distance himself, at least in name, from the former president. you rarely see him talking about george w. bush. the endorsement that happened, happened in an elevator. it is not the reel rolling out bush on the red carpet here. he is hoping that people forget exactly the causes of what happened. >> this is another one of those do not go there demand behind the curtain. i didn't think we would talk about it here but it seems to relevant wab ezra. we can't talk about bain. we can't talk about religion, fair enough. can't talk about his family, fair enough. we can't talk about -- what is fair game? >> you can talk about obama and high deficit, of course. i think one of the interesting thing about romney's vip search is that two of them were former bush budget directors.

you will bring up the bush years in a very, very big way. similarly if you look at his economic team, two of his four key economic advisors they ran bush's economic council at different times. one thing is very true at romney. he has the bush circle around heim him. i think one interesting thing about this recession, people used to talk about obama and this fdr moment you remember time had the cover. fdr came in three years after the great depression will begun. things long ago hit rock bottom so the t would fully discredit it. obama came in right as things hit rock bottom. he came in and for months things got worse because we were falling off cliff. there was some sort of sharing of blame that didn't exist from the great depression and allows key financipoll policies to get muddled. >> i suppose they took office in

january rather than march 4, right? >> that's it. >> okay. well thank you for the constitutional change which is allowing you to come in just in time for the blame for the catastrophe by the bushes. i want to talk about virginia and the states doing well. again, i think that may help obama but you never know. anyway, thank you sam stein, as always, thank you the brilliant ezra klein and brilliant stam stein. is there a growing rift within the pro business better off people, i must say, like cory booker, politically, and rank and file regular democrats who mistrust big economic power? this is "hardball," place for politics. today is gonna be an important day for us. you ready? we wanna be our brother's keeper. what's number two we wanna do? bring it up to 90 decatherms. how bout ya, joe? let's go ahead and bring it online. attention on site, attention on site.

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you can't argue with nutrition you can see. great grains. great grains cereal starts whole and stays whole. see the seam? more processed flakes look nothing like natural grains. i'm eating what i know is better nutrition. mmmm. great grains. search great grains and see for yourself. anyway, president obama has a big lead over mitt romney among latino voters. that according to our new nbc poll. obama has a 39 point lead believe it or not over romney on latino voters. 61% to 27 perps don't see numbers like this anywhere else. he carried a similar spread in 2008. challenge for the president, getting lean louisiana tinos to vote. only seven in ten hold those polsters. they are highly excited to vote this time, lats latinos. less than 10% for fellow americans.

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we're back. when newark mayor cory booker criticized the president's attack ads on bain capital on meet the press he outraged most democrats who hoped to hang bain capital around mitt romney's neck. but some relied on wall street for money and support. in short booker exposed a fisher, a fisher in the democratic party between the rank and file and it's money elite. robert rice is former secretary under clinton. he has written a new ebook, jondout rage. gentlemen, i want it talk about this, i'm not sure this is true. but i've been told it's true.

i've been hold robert rice, that there are democrats who are pro private equity who like the very wealthy people on wall street. they think the democratic party is of kinship with those people and dent like the populous outrage. i know there's only few of them but they are noisy and they know how to get into the newspapers. your thoughts? >> they are noisy, know how to get into the newspaper and are generally wealthy, chris. this is an new rift, by wait. i remember 20 years ago, 15 years ago in the clinton administration, there was the same rift. wall streeters, big money people, democratic party, many came from wall street or business big and then rank and filers who didn't want it have anything to do with them and were far more populist in their inclinations. that's intestifiable, that rift, in the democratic party, in the modern democratic party. but i think it is wrong to take it to the point where you see a conflict between the notion of fairness and notion of growth. i mean you can't get real growth in the economy unless have a

more equitable distrib bugs of income because over the past 30 years so much income and wealth has gone to the very top that vast majority doesn't have the purchasing power to keet economy going? wasn't it liberal henry ford who said he wanted his auto workers to be able to afford one it hen said he wanted one of his workers to afford one of his cars? that was a reasonable conservative gentleman. your thoughts about this battle? >> i i'm not sure it's the same battle between center and right, and the left and center left. but it seems to be there is a lousy -- not lousy noisy group of people that are offended their wealth is being questioned. >> politicians in the new york

area, like corey booker, get a lot of campaign contributions from wealthy financiers including people in private equity. so they are nicer to those folks. i think you saw it during the primaries. you saw the same sort of rift in the republican primary. when newt gingrich made a lot of hay out there, especially in my home state of south carolina, talking about bain capital and private equity, and talking about that form of what rick perry called vulture capitalism. >> he is on tomorrow night and we will raise that issue. populism in the republican party is there like when nixon could refer to the cloth coat republicans, they are there. he clinged to them and so did

rick santorum. >> there is a wealth of newt gingrich quoted about bain capital and equity. he has not taken it back. he has talked about that form of capitalism, picking the bones clean of a failing company, and he questions it. so that would be great to talk to him about it tomorrow night. >> good idea. let me go back to the question of populism, i know you're a pop ulist. corey booker undermined the main campaign argument. do you think it's a smart argument? >> again, i think it is if it is linked up with growth which it must be.

the only way to get growth back in the country is if we have a fair distribution of welcome and wealt -- income and wealth. it's not because corporations don't have tax cuts or the wealthy don't have the tax cuts, it's because the middle class don't have the income they need for the goods and services that are capable of being produced. i think the president has done a good job and he could do more making that connection in a wall street and top reaches of the democratic party. the big contributors, they would do better with a rapidly growing economy than they are doing now with a big share of an economy that is slowly growing. >> you know the old line, gene, you're my age you remember this. if you want to live like a

republican, vote like a democrat. bill clinton with his 39.5% top rate was the best thing to happen to american wealth. >> yes, government spending goes down, the republican spending goes up and they go into recession because they cut the wealthy taxes and stomp their foot on the middle class. and what add to what bill rice said, you have to talk about the equality of opportunity. wealthied insiders like folks in wall street have opportunities that the rest of us don't have, simply, because they have rigged the system to favor themselves at the expense of everybody

else. financial markets are supposed to serve the interests of the economy, not the other way around. >> and most people in this country understand that right now. >> robert rice, you're great, come back when ever you can, when we return, let me finish why you should not believe everything you hear from the republicans about president obama. this is a lot of bs coming out of their mouths about spending, taxes, and apologizing. none of it is true, you ought to know that.has tta be just right. perfect golden color. rich in fiber. my dad taught me, and i taught my son out there. morning, pa. wait... who's driving the...? ♪ 99 bushels of wheat on the farm, 99 bushels of wheat ♪ [ male announcer ] yep, there's 8 filling layers of whole grain fiber in those fun little biscuits... so they stick with you, all morning long. kellogg's® mini-wheats cereal. [ mini ] yee haw! a big breakfast in a little biscuit.

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>> let me finish with this. did you catch this karl rove ad running for $10 million. it's a smart effort to grab single women in this case, smart, but not especially honest. did you see that government spending is rising year after year, relentlessly throwing away our dollars, government spends has been basically flat all these last years. flat, flat, flat. anyway, flat all four years, and how about saying obama raised taxes. that's another thing you hear. obama lost every fight we know he had with the republican congress to get rid of the bush tax rates. the tax rates we have today are tham