if the money in politics citizens united eccentric billionaires have been deciding elections has been bumming you out, in one interesting and specific way, one way out might go through the state of montana. it is maybe the only hope and it is possible. and that's what we've got set for tomorrow night's "rachel maddow show." now it's time for "the last word with lawrence o'donnell." good night. >> tonight, the newest battleground state is massachusetts. >> the democrats are moving on to attack romney's record. >> dueling campaign events. >> they attack like this. >> the obama campaign goes to massachusetts. >> the state lagged far beyond the rest of the country. >> the state economy argument. >> created huge new debt here. >> it's an apples to apples comparison. >> and mitt romney shows up in a surprise visit at a boarded up

-- >> both stunts trying to make their points. >> he will be on thin ice. >> showing up as we were going on the air. >> portrait unveiling. >> so that didn't get on any of the network cable live. >> we wanted to make sure we would have this event without it being shut down. >> little things can matter when it's close. >> big things have small beginnings. >> obama i think recognizes he's in the white house because of president bush. >> i'll always be grateful for that. >> romney economics didn't work then and it won't work now. >> it did not work. >> obama's still kind of running against george w. bush. >> how divisive of a figure is george w. bush. >> me haf yourself. >> the months before i took the oval office were a chaotic time. >> what would george did? >> it did not work. >> it now starts and ends with george w. >> fool me once shame on me, fool me twice, shame on you. > fool me once, shame on --

shame on you. fool me -- you can't get fooled again. >> i can never get enough of can't get fooled again. the obama re-election campaign made today massachusetts day on the campaign trail. it began this morning when the obama campaign released this ad. >> we're going to have a stronger economy because i'm going to be governor. i have experience in the private sector i know how jobs are created and lost. >> i'll work tirelessly as governor to bring more good jobs to massachusetts. i know how to solve a budget problem. >> i stand very clearly for lowering the taxes. >> there are times when i watch mitt romney saying the sack same things now that he said here in massachusetts in 2002 in a robotic way that is completely hollow.

it doesn't work here so i'm not quite sure why he thinks it'll work nationally. >> the obama campaign senior strategist david axelrod then set up a microphone in front of the massachusetts statehouse at the top of beacon hill, massachusetts lawmakers told stories about serving there under governor mitt romney. >> he never wanted to look for new jobs. he was always only looking for his next job. >> massachusetts under obama has had the kind of economic performance that bush and romney tried to promise but never delivered. >> he tried to bring those same principles to massachusetts and the middle class surred. that's what happens when you try to translate those values and those principles into the governance of a state or a country. >> yes, that was booing you heard in the background, some booing that came from romney supporters. hours later mitt romney explained that those hecklers were actually there because mitt

romney sent them there. >> this building and most of the events i go to or many of the events i go to there are large groups of if you will obama supporters there heckling me and at some point you say, you know what, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, we're not going to sit back and play by a very different rule. if the president's going to have his people come into my rallies and heckling, why, we'll show them that we conservatives have the same kind of capacity he does. >> new nbc news marist poll shows the race titling in three battleground states. iowa they're even at 44. in colorado, president obama and mitt romney are statistically tied at 46% and 45%. in nevada, president obama and mitt romney are also statistically tied, 48 prshgs/46%. joining me now msnbc's alex

wagner and ari melber. >> alex, fool me once, don't -- don't get fooled again. whatever that was. we're trying to get that bush thing on a loop so we can just keep running it. >> a ringtone, lawrence. >> yes, a ringtone. >> that's what we all need. >> so, alex, mitt romney's darkest secret is now out. it turns out for some period of time he was governor of massachusetts. >> everyone knows now. you know, it is amazing and we talked about this up until this week that the one thing that would seem to actually qualify mitt romney for the presidency namely his executive experience as the governor of massachusetts was something that nobody talked about. now, inevitably we knew team obama would bring it up. the time line shifted because of the boehner stuff becoming more controversial than they thought but this is a period where i do think they're throwing everything out there, the

summer's going to be slow, see what sticks and prepare for an all-out september come september. >> ari, those massachusetts legislators have never actually participated in a presidential campaign before. no one has ever thought to go to get massachusetts legislators to do that. but we're going to be hearing a lot more from the obama campaign about this governship of mitt romney's that he just absolutely -- i mean, i don't know what you have to do to get romney to talk about being governor. >> it's something he seems to think will not be an issue on this campaign. it's weird. the ad is devastating because it is so specific and accurate, for example, there's a section on taxes and mitt romney talked a lot about how he would not raise taxes in massachusetts and it's true, he didn't raise the standard taxes, sales or income but what he did do was add $750 million in fees, which is just another way that the government collects money like taxes but fees are more regressive so the

less you make the more they hurt and that is now a fact about his tenure we know and so while you may look at some of his promises today about taxes you should look real close because last time he balanced some of those budgets to the extent that he got closer to them on the backs of the poor and then ended with 2.6 billion in debt. so a balance is charitable. >> massachusetts voters are very alert to that. they don't see any difference between the word fee and the word tax and they've been considering those things that way for a very long time there. i want to play a piece of rush limbaugh today because rush, you know, who knows that romney is not a real conservatives that a struggle and had this same struggle with john mccain is how do i rush crazy right wing conservative get behind someone who's not a crazy right wing kwrp by rush's definition? let's listen to how rush got there. >> romney has responded, oh, yeah, well, you know, i've got an 80% success rate,

mr. president, the companies that boehner capital using its own money, by the way, went in and rescued, 80% success rate. what's your success rate, mr. president? zero. every company you've attempted to save or industry you tried to give a boost to with taxpayer dollars not even your own are bankrupt. i like this. i don't care if romney is not conservative enough. >> i don't care if romney is not conservative enough. alex wagner, there you have the elasticity of rush limbaugh's principles. >> with supporters like that who needs enemies? you know, it is -- makes me feel bad sometimes to listen to these -- romney surrogates go out and make the case for mitt romney. i think, you know, lawrence, when you're talking about massachusetts, of course, the elephant in the room is the conservative base. i mean, mitt romney does not want to remind anybody that he was governor of massachusetts because no republicans think of massachusetts as a state that even you want to visit at this point. and the other thing, of course, is that all roads lead to romney

care and it's a reminder of what mitt romney did while he was in office, conservatives don't like that and i am of the mind-set that there is no time if mitt romney is even elected president that he will ever have the belief of the conservative base. they know, i think they will always think he is a wolf in sheep's clothing and he is going to have to go throughout this entire campaign cycle proving his conservative bon that fides and if he is president he will have to spend a fair amount trying to prove he is a severe conservative. >> ari, the romney campaign got tricked into campaigning today in a state they are going to lose. california is not a swing state. president obama is going to win it and romney went out there to stand at solyndra and say, look, the government put some money into a company that then failed, romney failed to mention all the bain companies that used government money to survive not

to mention the subsidies that they got in massachusetts while he was governor but has this one little company and how does that stack up about -- against president obama's ability to go to michigan, to go to ohio and talk about saving the entire auto industry. >> i think you nailed it on the political map. maybe it's really sad for those who are doing an early wake for mitt romney but, yes, he doesn't have a backyard, you know, middle america detroit story here. he has this sort of bank shot about solyndra saying it didn't work and they took some reporters out there and didn't tell him where they were going but showed up and ended up competing with a portrait of george w. bush which is tough competition bus "w" remains more popular among the base at least and the other point that ties back to what you were flagging with mr. limbaugh is, this government, this administration has put down much bigger bets and they have paid off. they loaned 8.6 billion to chrysler, got it back, sold a stake of that to fiat and the employment in the top three auto

companies in detroit is up 8% from 2011. still huge job problems, no one is saying you fix it all with one government loan. but mr. limbaugh has his facts wrong if he's suggesting that some of those big, bold and at times politically risky bets haven't paid off. the numbers show they have. >> alex, byron york made an interesting point. he says that the romney campaign is afraid of doing any kind of disavowing of the bloviating ignoramus donald trump or anyone else because figures who -- byron says figures demanding a trump disavowal would lead to more calls for more disavowals of other figures in the future. like, for example, rush limbaugh who is bound to say something within the next fortnight that should be condemned. >> i think this is a gross -- it's an unsurprising and gross miscalculation on the part of team romney. again, this is a fear-driven

decisionmaking process which is we can't alienate anybody on the right, in the base or we'll have problems at the polls. terrified of having mitt romney plant a flag in the ground and say this is wrong. offered this opportunity time and time again whether it's sandra or donald and he's proven to be i hate to say it a coward in going out to say he has some core and integrity. whether he's offered choi eed opportunities like there before november, hopefully he will take the baton and run with it. >> following that george w. bush commandment of don't get fooled again into renouncing anybody. alex wagner and ally me ali mel thanks for joining me. now the republicans say there is -- there is a war on women. unborn women. and they went to war with the democrats about it in the house of representatives today. crystal ball and michele goldberg will join me on that

and a landmark ruling today by the federal court of appeals in boston saying the defense of marriage act is unconstitutional. this country's leading constitutional lawyer david boies will join me along with zac walls and in "the rewrite," remember that crazy billionaire joe rickets who got hatched with a super pac plan? that crazy billionaire is not giving up. he is back. he's joining forces with the craziest college president in america, planning to attack president obama through the president's father. this is truly poisonous stuff, much worse than that crazy billionaire plan that he had to abandon already and that's coming up in "the rewrite." miami, florida. in here, great food demands a great presentation. so at&t showed corporate caterers how to better collaborate by using a mobile solution,

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john edwards was acquitted of one count of campaign finance

fraud and a mistrial was called for the others and in the process he proved there is much more money flowing around politics than is publicly reported. richard wolfe will join me and talk about the billions flowing into the campaigns this year. that's coming up and republicans now agree there is a war on women. crystal ball and michele goldberg will join me on that next and in "the rewrite" tonight, crazy billionaire joe ricketts is participating in a movie that is much crazier an the attack campaign add against president obama he was planning a couple weeks ago much that's in tonight's "rewrite" and i will confess that there's something newt gingrich has said that i might kind of sort of maybe partially agree with. [ male announcer ] aggressive styling. a more fuel-efficient turbocharged engine. and a completely redesigned interior.

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other right. >> let's not forget that planned parenthood aborts approximately 330,000 children every year. this, mr. speaker, is the real war on women. >> that was the tenor of the debate over a bill that would ban abortion based on the gender of the fetus. the bill got 246 votes for it and 168 votes against it today, but the bill did not pass because republicans had to use a procedural rule for that bill which required a 2/3 majority for it to pass. joining me now crystal ball, a democratic strategist and michele goldberg, senior writer for "newsweek" and "the daily beast." crystal, this was one of those stunt votes that they throw up there on the floor of the house, both parties do it from time to time trying to put the other party in the position of casting a difficult vote.

how do you think this one is going to play and how is it going to work in the congressional elections coming up? is this something they'll be able to use against democrats when running. >> that was certainly the intent as you accurately point out, i mean they're desperate to do anything that says, look, we are on the side of women. we're fighting for women and as you put it, i mean this was a stunt and a stunt they didn't intend to pass which is why it was brought up in this way where it would require 2/3 vote. in a way i see a parallel to the voter i.d. laws that have been passed across the country. it's the sort of thing that at first blush you go, okay, voter i.d., that makes sense and voters say, okay, that makes sense but don't realize that, number one, they're solving a problem that doesn't exist. there isn't voter fraud just as there is no proof that there's any problem with people aborting fetuses because of their gender. and you also have a situation where you're trying to make something seem like it's a mainstream idea and it's very popular but under the surface of

this law what you're really doing is criminalizing abortions and potentially throwing women in jail for exercising their constitutional right and the same thing with doctors potentially throwing doctors in jail and there's also an issue where some of the evidence that they relied on was saying that asian-american women may be more likely to abort fetuses based on gender so you're also throwing a racial element into this that's scary as well. >> michele, on these stunt votes as often as they can the party that's supposed to suffer for voting looks for a way to vote for it and i remember several of these things going through when i was working in the congress so i began the day wondering why do the democrats just vote for it? everybody is opposed to gender based abortion and then i read an article by michele goldberg which made me understand exactly why you should vote against this. i just want to point out that you write that the essential provision of the bill i who

perform sex selective abortions and force them to report women when they suspect they are seeking such abortions and so that's the spot. it invades the doctor's communication with the patient and then subjects every doctor who's -- any doctor who performs any abortion could then be dragged in for questioning of did she say anything to you about the gender? what did she say to you about the gender? there would be grounds to question every single abortion provider under criminal suspicion on every single abortion. >> right and that's one of the ideas behind these laws. we already have these laws in four states. one thing they do is open up doctors to fishing expedition. particularly because it's not the doctor necessarily especially in a clinic like planned parenthood doing the ultrasound to determine gender.

certainly not doing the amniocentesis which can determine gender so how does the doctor know why the woman is coming in? particularly with this suspicion it would have a year's imprisonment for doctors who didn't report women they suspected of aborting because of gender. so what exactly does suspicion constitute? one reason why so many asian-american organizations oppose this is because it would put asian-american patients under heightened suspicion. the other problem with this bill, i mean nobody supports sex selective abortion and feminists have fought hard against sex selective abortion in asia where it's a genuine crisis but the problem with this bill, in american law, right now we don't -- you don't need to tell your doctor why you're having an abortion. we don't have reason-based restrictions. we don't have kind of provisions where the government gets to decide whether or not your reason for seeking to end a pregnancy is valid. once you tart putting those things into law, there's kind of no telling where it ends.

>> yeah, this is a classic case of you think you have an idea that makes sense and now you want to write a law about it. it turns out it's next to impossible to do it in a way where the law doesn't end up being just crazy. i mean this thing is, michelle, the more you in effect made me read this thing today the crazier it read. krystal, this is the best they can do this joining battle. what they have denied is a war on women. >> lord knows they're not about to go out and fight for paycheck equity or anything crazy like that so this was the best they could do. there's another element to it, as well, harken back to when this new congress was first sworn in. one of their first actions was to threaten to shut down the federal government over funding for planned parenthood. remember that they wanted to defund it and almost went to the mat over that when that didn't work out then they launched this bogus congressional investigation into planned

parenthood which was the basis that komen for the curioused to end their partnership with planned parenthood. behind all of those actions was an assault on planned parenthood orchestrated by a group called americans united for life who have stated that their purpose this year and one of their main priorities is to attack planned parenthood. they've been very successful. they're like alex in a way behind the war on women. they draft model legislation and they've been very successful at getting planned parenthood partially and completely defunded in state as cross the country. just in 2011 alone they had nine states that passed legislation defunding planned parenthood so with this law, as well, there is an attack on planned parenthood coming along with it where they're trying to taint planned parenthood as performing gender-specific abortions. >> michelle goldberg, thank you very much for educating me very quickly this morning on this bill. as soon as i read your piece i knew what i thought. krystal ball, thanks as well.

>> thanks, lawrence. the crazy obama hating billionaire joe ricketts is back. this time instead of pouring money into tv ads about jeremiah wright he is funding a hate movie about president obama called "the roots of obama's rage." that's in "the rewrite." later, the john edwards campaign fraud case, campaign financing fraud case ends with an acquittal on one count and a mistrial on the rest and it reveals there is much, much, much more money flowing in and around campaigns than we thought. richard wolffe is going to join us to track the billions going into this election already. that's coming up. how a shippingt can befriend a forest may seem like the stuff of fairy tales. but if you take away the faces on the trees... take away the pixie dust. take away the singing animals, and the storybook narrator... [ man ] you're left with more electric trucks. more recycled shipping materials...

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[ normal voice ] so i can trust 'em. unlike randy. are you in good hands? another big legal win for marriage equality today, perhaps its biggest legal win. it's the biggest legal win ever in a federal appeals court, the first circuit court of appeals in boston ruled today that the defense of marriage act isnstut. the court opinion said, many americans believe that marriage is the union of a man and a woman, and most americans live in states where that is the law today. one virtue of federalism is that it permits this diversity of governance based on local choice, but this applies as well to the states that have chosen to legalize same-sex marriage. under current supreme court

authority, congress denial of federal benefits to same-sex couples lawfully married in massachusetts has not been adequately supported by any permissible federal interest. the first circuit put its ruling on hold, in effect, until the united states supreme court decides the case. the three-judge panel was made up of two republican appointees and only one democrat. the decision was unanimous. joining me now attorney david boies who was co-lead counsel for the plaintiffs in california's prop 8 trial and he was also al gore's lead count in bush v. gore. also zac walls, the author of "my two moms." david boies, what is the meaning of this decision today and what happens next? >> well, there are two meanings. the first meaning is that this establishes that in those states that allow their citizens to marry whomever they want and

establish marriage equality, the federal government cannot discriminate against marriages in those states compared to marriages in any other state so what it says is that where you have marriage equality, the federal government must recognize those marriages. the second significance of it is that the reasoning of the court is reasoning that would support requiring states everywhere to recognize marriage equality. because what it says is that you have to give special scrutiny to laws that discriminate against people who have been discriminated against in the past and that people who are engaged in same-sex relationships fall into that category and the second thing that it says is that it is not permissible to base laws on moral disapproval. if you disapprove of a same-sex lifestyle, that's your personal opinion but you cannot enforce that through the laws of the

united states. >> let's listen to what jay carney said today in addressing the court's ruling. >> there's no question that this is in concert with the -- the department of justice participated in this very legislation with the first circuit consistent with what the attorney general articulated saying the section was unconstitutional. i cannot predict what the next steps will be in handling cases of this nature. >> the politics of this become interesting here because as we know the obama administration decided to not try to defend the constitutionality of doma in cases like this and this decision now comes on the heels of the president's announcement about his own personal preference about same-sex marriage. it seems like there is now an aura of constitutional support building for what was just a few weeks ago the president's personal opinion. >> uh-huh. yeah, you know, what's

interesting about this case in particular is that the defense of doma was carried out by the bipartisan legal advisory group. important that the name bipartisan is in the title it's not bipartisan. the bipartisan legal advisory group was created and exists solely for them to continue to fight doma through the courts. important to mention this is section 3, federal employee benefits and does not strike down at all the clause of the defense of marriage act that permits states to reject marriages of same-sex couples that take place in other states so, for example, when my moms go down to visit family in florida, regardless of the ruling on this particular issue by the supreme court, my moms aren't married when they step off that plane in florida, so as david mentioned there is still a long ways to go when it dose to this law. >> david boies, let's talk about that long way to go. the issue that zach is talking about regarding his mothers, when this case goes to the

supreme court, presumably all aspects of the law will be considered. >> you can't be sure of that. most likely, only the part of the law that was decided in this case will go to the supreme court in this case. now, the supreme court might reach out and deal with both sections of the law. but i think that it's more likely than not that only the law that was before the first circuit would go out. now, i think there are grave constitutional problems with the section of the law that tries to repeal the full faith and credit clause of the united states constitution. and i think that part will be held unconstitutional as well but it may have to wait a different case. >> david, does it have to wait for another litigant to make it up through the appeals court level, specifically on that issue in order to get to the supreme court? >> it generally -- it generally would have to. now, the reasoning of the

court's opinion would support holding that -- the other section unconstitutional, as well. so sometimes a broad ruling can strike down the underlying principle for sections that aren't before the court but in terms of getting an actual litigated result you would probably need unless the court reached out to take it, you would probably need to have an actual litigant that was affected by the particular section involved. >> yeah, zach, as you read that language in the decision as david says, it does -- if you were just trying to apply that thinking, that court's thinking to the other provision, it would be very hard, it seems to me, for that same court -- >> no, definitely. >> -- to come out the other way. >> definitely. >> on your mother's case, let's say. >> yeah, you know, there is another case against doma pending in the 9th circuit which david knows well and actually to get back to a point you made in

the ink tree to this segment i want to talk about justice budine, so this isn't some radical left wing judicial activism that we're seeing here. what this is is the proper way that the united states government is supposed to function with the challenging of laws, a good independent judiciary and what we're seeing finally is justice and progress when it comes to lbgt rights. >> what would you say is the other side of this case clinging to in a supreme court argument? >> well, you know, one of the problems i've always had about this issue is unlike the usual case i just can't figure out what the argument is on the other side. >> you're pretty good at that. it is your job. >> it is my job to do that and i generally do a pretty good job of that. i generally can tell you what my opponents will hard but have a

hard time figuring out that is an argument on the other side. they can't article federalism. for heavens sakes what they're trying to do is override a state's decision to allow marriage equality. they can't argue that they don't like the lifestyle because the supreme court has already held that that's off-limits. they can't argue that they ought to be able to discriminate, equal protection clause says you can't do that. it is very, very hard to think of what arguments they have left, legal arguments. >> you're not the only one who is struggling. during the prop 8 trial when ted olson asked the defendant counsel to explain what damage same-sex marriage has on straight couples, all he could say was, i don't know. i don't know. >> exactly. >> we don't either. >> that's a moment for a lawyer. thank you both for joining me tonight. >> thank you. coming up, joe ricketts, the obama hating billionaire has

found a new way to spread his poison. he is now funding a movie based on the obama hate book entitled "the roots of obama's rage." that's in "the rewrite." and john edwards trial showed us that there's even more money flowing into and around politics than is publicly reported. richard wolffe will join me to track the billions pouring into our politics right now. that's coming up. -345 tdd# 1-800-345-2550 as well as your portfolio. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 we ask the right questions, tdd# 1-800-345-2550 then we actually listen to the answers tdd# 1-800-345-2550 before giving you practical ideas you can act on. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 so talk to chuck online, on the phone, tdd# 1-800-345-2550 or come in and pull up a chair.

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twenty-one vitamins and minerals. in blueberry/pomegranate and peach. refreshing nutrition in charge! obama has a dream, a dream from his father that the sins of colonialism be set right and america be downsized. >> that is crazy hateful billionaire joe ricketts' latest dream, making a movie about president obama's dreams. you remember joe ricketts, he is the founder of td ameritrade, a company that is now fearing you will withdraw your money from any accounts there because of the obama hatred spewed and paid for by the money joe ricketts made from td ameritrade. joe ricketts is also the patriarch of the family that owns the chicago cubs. no member of the ricketts faneuilly would be involved with

the chicago cubs were it not for the crazy billionaire's money. to protect the chicago cubs, baseball business from the madness of the patriarch, joe ricketts' son, has tried to distance the cubs from his father's public hatred of president obama. it was just two weeks ago that "the new york times" exposed joe ricketts' plan to use his super pac for a tv ad campaign starring the reverend jeremiah wright as the man who controls the mind of president obama. having been forced to publicly give up on that project, ribts is now funding a movie that will insist on the basis of absolutely no evidence or -- and, in fact, with actual proof to the contrary that president obama's mind is completely controlled from the grave by his

fath father, barack obama sr. who president obama met once when he was 10 years old. the public outrage that met joe ricketts' plan to use jeremiah wright against president obama seems to have exhausted those who were outraged because ricketts' new plan to use barack obama sr. against barack obama has been met with something close to silence. the movie he is financing is based on a rage-filled book entitled "the roots of obama's rage" all of the rage in the book belongs to its author dinesh did souza. even the conservative weekly standard said correctly that the book is full of "misstatements of fact, leaps in logic and pointlessly elaborate argue mentation." and that's from d'souza's friend

at "the weekly standard." he writes "in obama shares his father's anti-colonial crusade that would explain why he wants people already paying close to 50% of their income in overall taxes to pay even more." that's it. that's the book. but it does not explain why president obama wants them to pay lower tax rates than they did under presidents reagan, nixon and eisenhower. all republicans. we don't know the exact day on which dinesh d'souza lost his mind or if he's stark raving mad to collect the money from td ameritrade billionaire joe ricketts. joe ricketts loves dinesh. ricketts says he is, quote, a

proud support he of his scholarship, end quote. ricketts is so batty that he believes what d'souza does is scholarship. his money scholarship is helped by a president of a college in manhattan on fifth avenue between 33rd and 34th street, i know you've never seen it, i've walked by there and i've never seen it. and that's because it's somewhere inside the empire state building. the college calls itself the king's college. and describes itself as a christian liberal arts college. that is where d'souza is in effect stealing the tuition money of 360 students on whom he is foisting his utterly fraudulent scholarship.

dinesh d' souza is now the donald trump of college presidents but crazy td ameritrade billionaire joe ricketts doesn't know that. the only thing crazy td ameritrade billionaire joe ricketts cares about is making sure we don't have an anti-colonial president. and the only thing the bloviating ignoramus of the king's college dinesh d' souza has to do to keep the crazy billionaire's money flowing is to make sure that the crazy td ameritrade billionaire never finds out about this guy. i'm an expert on softball. and tea parties.

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we'd be so much better off with a very simple system that said any american can donate any amount of personal income after taxes as long as they report it online that night and they would give it to the candidate. and then the candidates would have to be responsible for the advertising. you'd have a cleaner, more positive, healthier system. i think you watch this fall. between the obama super pac, the romney super pac, the conservative super pac, the liberal super pac, it's going to be a mess. >> i hate to say it, i mean i hate to say it, i don't even think i can say it. richard wolffe, you got to help me with this. >> lawrence, i'm here to help you. you know that. >> i am thinking about saying something that i just hate to say and i'm just going to try it with you and -- >> okay. >> tell me if you think i should

actually say this, you know, in the segment we're going to do in a second. >> be careful. >> i think what newt just said, i think newt has a point. >> you know, lawrence, are you feeling okay? i mean, are you feeling all right tonight? >> it's a first time event for me, newt having a point. >> do you know, lawrence, you're only a couple of step as way from agreeing with donald trump about something. >> no, that's a whole different thing. this thing about accountability of the money he's got a point here because now we've got all this money flowing with super pacs and they can do whatever they want and the candidate can claim i didn't know anything about it. newt is saying, if all the money is going to be there, why not make it accountable? >> well, okay, let's say that this was spoken by someone called bob gingrich and put it to one side. disclosure is a good thing. we knight people to say what they're doing and know where the money is going to. i like the idea that campaigns

should be spending their own money and that campaigns should be controlled by candidates. all of that is good. the undisclosed bit, though, don't you think that's kind of corrupting for democracy? >> well, listen, i mean corrupting for democracy, we just had a trial in, you know, north carolina about exactly that with john edwards where we saw, okay, you don't have to worry about just the money that's actually being reported and going into the campaign, now there's this whole other million or so, you know, that can flow in and is that really personal use or could the candidacy have ever survived without that hush money? >> right. >> i mean that's what that jury had to wrestle with. >> look, i understand but the unlimited part of it, i get the feeling if the prosecutors wanted to go after john edwards for bilking this woman out of her money, you know, there's fraud out there that is being perpetrated by karl rove on people like your friend ricketts and sheldon aidleson and all the others, they are being bilked like bernie madoff bilked these

people that they will give something meaningful to the country when, in fact, they're just wasting their money. you could build a hospital with this kind of money. >> so, richard, so far team romney has spent 47 million. that includ romney. team obama have spent 41 million so far including super pacs which on the o big super pac. but team obama's trailing. of course, team romney had to win some primaries so i can see where there would be a spending difference. >> yeah, but you look at the proportions here, this is obviously abstract at this point because who cares about campaign finance apart from people like us? but in the end you're going to face a situation, easily before the fall, where romney is being outspent by his own super pac who is taking the lead of who here? yes, he had expensive primaries to deal with but there's no equivalency, there's no democrat super pac. it's a teeny pac. it's barely a pac at