we showed the richard dawson clip. rip richard dawson. amen to tha rip, richard dawson. amen to that. thank you, thank you. >> oh, you're welcome. >> no, no. >> stavrula. >> come here. stavrula. you know, do you understand why they have wars in greece? i can't understand it. is that -- thank you, darling. >> i love you. >> we must get on with the game. >> and there you go. good morning, everyone. it is monday, june 4. welcome to "morning joe." with us on set, we have the

executive editor at random house and "time" magazine contributing editor jon meacham. >> on "match game," wasn't he? >> he's too young. >> soupy sales. >> former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst steve rattner is back with us. >> steve rattner shaking it up on fox news sunday. >> what? >> we had fun. i thought i did ok against chris wallace. >> a lot of great reviews. a lot of people saying you carried the white house's water much better than they carry their water. and i don't mean that as being negative. >> no, i understand. >> i mean, you made a very compelling argument. >> i just tried to tell them what i thought. >> how did that go? >> it was fun. i thought chris was tough but fair. >> for those who didn't see, what was the one-line case for the white house? >> it's things were bad, but it would have been much worse without the president's policies.

that the stimulus did work. and that the bank rescues and the auto rescues were fundamental to even being as well off as we were today. >> there you go. >> thank you, steve. >> that's a long bumper sticker. >> no, it's not. >> i can shorten it up for you. >> we're not romney. you can try that one too. the celtics, man. they were down 2-0. this series is over. this series ain't over. you know what magic says? magic says -- no, i think it was riley that said, a series doesn't start in the nba until the home team loses. >> yeah. that's right. and last night, we'll just reveal it here, why not. they were down 18 points to boston, and came all the way back. lebron gets a little criticism here at end of regulation. gave it up there. lebron fouls out. they did have a chance to win. dwyane wade had a three-pointer that would have won the game, it was just off, and the celtics

held off to win it. so the series is evened up 2-2. >> what do you think does to the psyche of the heat to know that all of america now tunes in outside of miami? >> everybody. >> that everybody tunes in to hate the heat. >> they have become the yankees and duke and everybody else rolled into one. >> well, the yankees without the wins. >> well, so far. >> you can hate the yankees. but you've got to respect the yankees. the heat, they promised seven championships, and they're struggling j struggling just to get -- >> it does nationalize the proverb the enemy of my enemy is my friend. >> lebron hears all this stuff. he knows. >> i hope he doesn't hear it from me. >> years ago, it was like michael. this is my team. i'm going to take it over. dwyane wade is a great player.

no problem for him having the time shot. but lebron just doesn't have the killer instinct. >> mika, talk about this. >> did you see all the play that bloomberg's big gulp ban is getting? great articles, great pieces, a lot of people supporting him. but did you see the big ad calling him a nanny? >> you played some of it on the show on friday, but thursday night jon stewart's spot which you featured holding your coffee cup. i don't know quite what the analogy was. but he was trying to make one. >> oh, really? >> yes. you guys were right there. >> well, i got slammed for -- >> was he critical? >> i couldn't figure that part out. it was the funniest thing i have ever seen. trying to liken mika's starbucks cup to big gulp. i don't get there. >> because i slam people for drinking large drinks and then i

took a sip of -- >> well, i think that was -- >> i need a ban. they were making fun of me. they don't know what i'm drinking, but i'll have to watch it. did they lambaste me? >> no, it was fun. >> that's great. i deserve it. >> so friday, steve, you're here at a perfect time as always. friday, you open up the "wall street journal" and there's a story on the front about how asia is slowing down. and inside that very broad band especially china and south korea and australia. and then there's a story on the inside about spain's banks collapsing. then there's a story about greece falling even faster than anybody expected. then there's a story about our gdp falling faster in the first quarter than we expected. i mean, on and on. one bad story after another. and that was of course followed up with very bad news from the

unemployment report. could we be moving towards a global depression? >> i don't know about a global depression, but possibly a global recession. that's what people are worried about. europe is already in a recession. if europe melts down, it could well drag down a lot of the rest of us with it. it's a reminder, and i read your blog post which i thought really summed it up very well, it's a reminder we live in an interconnected world. you can't think we are on our own. we're dependent on the europeans and asia. asia is dependent on the rest of us. and right now there's a terrible, terrible fear that europe has no idea what it's doing. no sense of where it's going. >> if europe falls off a cliff, then china is adversely affected. the united states is adversely -- i mean, it is -- everything falls. the dominies just start falling. >> and that's what's going on on the stock market. china is down because the rest of the developed world is slowing down, and they have

their own problems as well. >> so is greece, are lehman brothers -- everybody says, well, why do you let lehman brothers fall? maybe if we propped them up, everything else wouldn't have collapsed as quickly. does the whole world have to get together now and say, listen, if greece falls, spain falls. if spain falls, italy falls. if italy falls, portugal. >> the problem is that the europeans have been too little, too late, at every step of the way, and still don't have a coherent policy. i was locked away for the past few days with a bunch of them. they are smart and a lot of them see it clearly, but they don't know what to do. >> you were locked away with a bunch of europeans? >> well, and some americans. >> i'm the only one that got that? >> hold on a second, now. see, we get it. >> at least we get that. >> because we're red necks. and they warned us in sunday school about those people.

>> locked up. >> they would get together once a year. >> was dr. brzezinski there? >> i'll get shot if i talk about it. >> that means he was there. >> i was locked up with a bunch of -- not the trilaterals, that's mika's. >> they rebranded it. >> you get a big gulp for getting that. >> we're using up precious time when we could be talking about important matters of the world. >> true. >> but just think about all the conspiracy blogs we're helping at 6:08 in the morning. >> so you're in the room with a bunch of europeans. >> the rattner group. >> back to the point. the point is, it's not just greece anymore. the point is they missed their moment to have it just be about greece. now it's about spain, and it may even be about france having elected hollande. that sort of rolled over the

markets. and there's nothing good happening. >> i'm not hearing anything you're saying now. you're just wondering what it's like inside. >> can i set up the scene about -- all right. i'm just going to show this. what is it, a political -- it's a web ad. and it will help us bring it back. >> ok. get out the conspiracy theories. >> it's not a theory. we have a confession here. >> you're a little slow this morning, aren't you? >> my dad didn't start the trilateral commission. >> stop. there's nothing wrong with that. just because people would faint which i would say that at age 5. >> the trilateral commission, world government. >> that basil thing. >> exactly. >> all this stuff together -- >> the whole thing. >> we started this conversation talking about friday's job report. >> you can read about it in revelation, right? you know what i'm talking about, meacham. >> i apologize for that. >> i don't. so the same day the dismal

jobs report -- >> nay, the four horsemen. >> exactly. >> restraint. >> should we talk about the mets? >> yeah. the jobs report was released this weekend, and there was a web ad featuring longtime "vogue" editor anna wintour urging people to support obama. >> i had, i'm anna wintourre, and i'm so lucky in my work that i get to meet some of the most incredible women in the world, including michelle obama and sarah jessica parker. we are hosting a dinner to benefit president obama. it will be a fantastic evening and you can join us. we're saving the two best seats in the house for you, but you have to enter to win. >> not sure how that would go in kansas. >> i think it's big. >> listen, i'd like to go to the event. i admire her.

she's great at what she does. the timing, willie, though, maybe a little off. >> a little off. >> just a smidge. >> come hang out with high society, the 1%, on the upper east side. >> just a scosche off. the timing. >> she's great. i'd love to go to dinner. >> actually, i think it's downtown, but we won't quibble over that. >> forgive me. >> was that in your packet? [ laughter ] >> so -- >> there's another one. >> ok. i was wondering -- it was curious that you would put that one as the first one that you read. >> i didn't. i was just trying to deflect from steve. it was the third thing. >> look behind you. we are so easily distracted by the conspiracy theories. so i was out last night, because i didn't get invited to international organization events. i was out last night driving, and it had been raining all afternoon. look. >> it was an incredible night. >> it was an unbelievable sunset that stopped me. i pulled over and took the picture. >> that's beautiful.

>> never seen anything like it. and i caught it late. rainbows all over the place. a double rainbow. i saw a double rainbow. >> cried a little bit. >> cried a little bit. [ laughter ] >> so the president's re-election campaign also debuted their first national tv ad last night during mtv's movie awars. they hoped to win over the younger audience with an ad featuring sarah jessica parker. >> the guy who ended the war in iraq, the guy who says you should be able to marry anyone you want, and the guy who created 4 million new jobs, that guy, and michelle obama, are coming to my house for dinner on june 14 and i want you to be there too. but you have to go to joinobama.com for your chance to win, and the contest ends tomorrow night. so go right here, right now, because we need him and he needs us. >> i'm barack obama and i approved this message. >> she's a good spokesperson. >> she is. does that help? does that do something? yeah.

>> i mean, it raises money. >> sure. >> all that coming out on friday, i guess. maybe the timing, i don't know. >> they're fundraisers. >> it happens. >> it happens all over the place. >> they are always going to california to david geffan's house on a bad day. >> no problem with that. and i wish david geffan would invite us to his house. >> well, we have to talk to rattner. steve brought his charts to put friday's numbers into perspective. let's talk about the job situation overall. >> talk about the jobs or the mets and the no hitter, man. >> at least there's some good news amidst all the gloom. how about the mets? not just the no hitter. >> bill maher, new owner of the new york mets. >> did he buy one of the shares? >> yeah. they were selling 12 minority shares at $20 million a pop, and i think bill maher bought one.

>> fred wilpon. there's just not a better guy in baseball. >> and he is playing good baseball with limited budget, shall we say. >> and tied for first place now. >> how exciting. >> the job situation overall. >> the job situation overall. all right. look. just to put it back in perspective, as everybody knows, we went into this terrible recession which happened to have really reached its nadir right about the time that president obama was elected. so you see the loss of 700,000 jobs a month going on. the unemployment rate is still rising. ultimately hits 10%. and in the beginning of 2010, we begin to see some recovery. we get some months of jobs over 200,000. but we also get -- and this is relevant to what we're seeing now. we get three springs in a row of weak job creation. and we don't know whether this may have some technical factors and how they calculate the numbers. it may be just a seasonal slowdown. or this time, and obviously the markets were thoroughly

destabilized, it could be something worse. >> so does that also mean -- and i can't dig right in on the charts -- we've had three recoveries in the summer from slow springs? >> well, two, and now this is the third. and we'll see what happens this summer. but that's right. it has come back twice before from this kind of a slowdown in the spring. >> but you would guess less likely this time because there's not the stimulus money out there? >> that's right. and there's this european problem. and there's the feel that this slowdown may be for real, but we don't know that yet. this next chart is something that people don't always pay attention to or understand. which is it's very hard to have a robust job recovery when three important sect ors, which are government construction, homes in other words, and finance -- sorry, this one over here -- are all not contributing. they are either down in the case of government, down in the case of construction, flat in the case of finance. so even though we have created 2.5 million jobs since the

recession ended in june of 2009, you've got three sectors pulling it down. >> three of the big sectors. >> that are 25% of all the jobs. >> and drove a lot of the growth, jon meacham, over the past decade before the collapse in '08. >> so it's just very hard to have a robust recovery when a quarter of your economy is not recovering. >> when you talk about uncertainty, is that because of the presidential calendar the rest of the year will be driven by that uncertainty, of people who might be putting some money in to create some jobs? >> i think all of the uncertainty, and the fact that we seem to be making economic policy six months at a time in washington is very destabilizing. if you're a businessman and you don't know if you're taxes will be higher or lower, and what deductions you will or won't get next year, it's hard to plan your business. >> and who's going to invest right now? if you've been frozen because you weren't sure of the impact of health care or these other issues, i mean, i remember --

this was about the time every couple of years that i would just go to the house floor and i'd read like roman history and greek history because i knew we were going to just be sitting on the floor doing nothing. because you're frozen in place for the election. and businessmen and women have been frozen in place for several years. steve, i would guess now they don't know whether romney wins, whether the president wins, whether the republicans are taking control. there's so many questions out there right now. this would be the least likely of all times for people that have been sitting on the sidelines to throw money back into the economy. >> i agree. and it's a real unfortunate consequence of our system and the fact that we're in this endless, endless campaign. so let's look at the stock market for a second because the stock market as you saw behind you also, joe, next to the beautiful sunset, which was the very unfortunate stock market

performance on saturday, but that was just the last day of what we've had for quite a while. it really started back with the april jobs report and the french and greek elections. when hollande was elected in france, when the greeks could not produce a government that could implement policy, the stock market basically -- >> holland struggling around the same time. >> and the stock market was up as much as close to 15% this year. and since that date, it was just down, and then of course with what happened on friday, it just rolled over. >> can you help me out? with the banking sector. it's something i have never understood. so 2008 hits. the banks on wall street just get hammered. stocks go way down. and then we're hearing the next year that they are celebrating some of the biggest profits they've ever had, passing out some of the biggest bonuses ever, everybody got angry. get the pitch forks out. and then six months later, a lot

of mid level guys, that i know that are working at all of these banks, are sweating it because they are about to get fired because i guess bank profit started going down. why has it been down, way up, and seemingly down again? >> well, down the financial crisis. way up because we had in this enormous infusion of government help on every front and recapitalized the banks. >> and the banks went low and the stocks went high? >> and a lot of banks got washed out of the system. you had mergers and consolidation. and then this last year or so, it's just been a really tough struggle for the banks. slow mergers and acquisitions. slow ipos. just generally slow. >> but i don't understand. if they go down, then they make huge profits in nine and 10, and then they go down and start firing everybody again. do they not realize on wall street that there are cycles? >> well, remember nine and 10,

it's not like they hired a lot of people. they made a good bit of money. but then they found that business took another leg down, if you will, and they had to eliminate a bunch of people. one last chart if you're interested in trade that those of us follow and many of us like that tends to be a good predictor of things, this is one of the most remarkable things i have seen in intrade. because intrade tends to move very, very slowly particularly a long way from election. and it was holding barack obama sort of rock stead nethis 58% to 60% range. and on friday it went down to 53% in the blink of an eye. and that's something you don't see intrade do very often. so intrade is scared about -- >> it wasn't just one jobs report. what was it, steve? >> this was literally one jobs report. this was literally what happened on friday after the jobs data came out. it just went from 57% right down to 53%. >> and why is that? >> i think -- >> is it an accumulation of concerns that led up to that?

>> no. i think it's what you heard a little bit on the show earlier on willie's show. i think basically there's now a sense that this election is going to be all about jobs and all about these jobs numbers and the president's need to defend his election. and intrade is now saying, we're not so confident anymore. now it's a dog fight between the president and romney. >> you talk all the time, joe, about trend lines. if you look at 1984, the unemployment rate wasn't great but it was getting better every month. if president obama gets worse every month, it's harder to make the case, hang with me for four more years and we'll get there. you can't have a summer of ticking down. >> yeah, he can't. the problem with the unemployment number which we all look at, i can tell you that the white house was just as concerned over the last two months as they were on friday. >> yeah. >> even though the number might have ticked down, people are giving up out there. they are getting out of the work force. they are not looking for jobs. and so, yeah, i think take it --

taken altogether, it's bad. of course, gas prices are down. and, you know, jon, you're a histori historian, one of my favorite quotes, there's a special providence that protects fools, drunkards, and the united states of america. every time, you have people wringing their hands going, we're never getting out of this, and boom, we explode. >> it protects the united states of america. it does not protect incumbent presidents, 1980 and 1992 being the best examples. >> 1992, if we had the growth in the third quarter that we had in the third quarter, it would have been different. >> the president's approval ratings on his handling of the economy, on a lot of fronts, are almost identical to george bush's in 2004. >> yeah. >> and that is the one outlying

number where his approval rating was below 50% at this point but did win. >> an interesting comparison. >> george w. bush. their numbers have been tracking similar. >> george bush was very similar at this point. >> coming up, "hard ball's" chris matthews will join us. >> that will be fun. >> also, gillian tett. "washington post" columnist ezra klein. and in a few moments, mark leibovich. up next, mike allen with the top stories in the politico playbook. but first, bill karins is back with a check on the forecast. we were doing so well. everything was so accurate. now bill's back. >> we had a great sunset over the weekend. and that wonderful picture, joe. that was the case in many questionnaiareas. this morning, not pretty up in

new england. maine, new hampshire, vermont, you did not have a pretty weekend. it's cold enough this morning that it is snowing on june 4 atop mt. washington in new hampshire at 5,000 feet elevation. that's an indication of how chilly it is. only in the 50s today from boston to hartford. cool from philly to new york. afternoon showers and storms. and this morning, nasty storms around tulsa, ft. smith, and memphis. those are now headed down to northern mississippi. and birmingham, you'll have a rainy morning with showers and storms. the bottom line this monday, we are stormy on both coasts, but we are dry and hot in the middle of the country. if you're on the west coast, that's a chilly storm for you too. so kind of an interesting weather setup to start our june. not feeling a lot like summer in new york city. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. ♪

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28 past the hour. time now to take a look at the morning papering. we'll start with the "wall street journal." facebook is developing technology that would allow children younger than 13 to use the social networking site. they already do. but anyhow, this time it would be under parental supervision. the move would allow the company to reach a new pool of users for revenue but could also fuel concerns over privacy. they already do, willie. "usa today" says states are looking for new ways to tax motorists to pay for highway and bridge repairs. one of the leading ideas to track drivers for how many miles they drive and how much gasoline they buy. oregon and minnesota are already testing methods. "the new york daily news," the space shuttle "enterprise" has gone where no other shuttle

has gone before, a voyage on the hudson river. it was loaded on a barge and pulled to its final stop at the intrepid sea, air, and space museum. the financial times," queen elizabeth led a procession of 1,000 boats down the river thames to celebrate her diamond jubilee. about 1 million people watched from the banks despite the rain and cold weather. cal ripken thing coming up. >> three more years. and she will best victoria. the longest serving monarch. and looking at her out there, she'll make it with flying colors. >> her mother made it to 100 or something like that, right? >> she was not queen. >> no, no. but in terms of age. >> the genes are good. >> yeah. that's a look at the headlines. now time for a look at politico. >> let's go down to politico with mr. mike allen with a look at the playbook. good morning.

>> good morning, guys. >> let's talk about your lead piece. the romney campaign already chosen someone to lead the transition process if he is elected, but also you're pointing out that mitt romney is perhaps his own best adviser. >> no, that's right. there's no karl rove of the romney campaign. romney is a lot more the ceo model. a lot of people giving their input to him. it's how he was successful in business. he's bringing it to his campaign. now the romney campaign has secretly had something they call project ready. and project ready is the transition for if governor romney becomes president-elect romney to get ready in that crazy 75 days between election and inauguration. and the person heading it is mike leavitt, who we in washington know from his days as health and human services secretary for george w. bush. he was the utah governor who put mitt romney in charge of the 2002 winter olympics.

they have stayed close since then. and he's travelled a little bit with the governor. so he's in this very sensitive position. clay johnson, a prep school friend, did it for george w. bush. and of course john podesta for barack obama. it often but not always leads you to white house chief of staff. in this case, it might be a personal counselor. so mike leavitt may be the valerie jarrett if barack obama is -- if mitt romney is elected. >> close adviser from inside the state of utah. let's talk about that jobs number from friday. the 69,000 jobs added. how is the romney campaign using that number and the previous two months to push its campaign forward? >> well, for one thing, they have a new slogan. and this is a little cheeky, a little naughty. their new slogan, you saw it behind romney on cnbc on friday, the only interview he did friday. you saw it on his podium in las vegas. putting jobs first. and of course, putting jobs first is a play on the

clinton-gore slogan from '92, putting people first. so in addition to new slogans, this is given a buoyancy to the romney campaign we haven't heard. it's also putting pressure on president obama to do a new economic plan. we're told that for the moment, the white house, the obama campaign, are sticking with their to do list for congress. but as we head toward the convention, the fall, pressure to say something new will be intense. >> it was interesting. you heard it again yesterday. the romney campaign saying that president obama is a nice guy, we know he's trying. his policies are simply not working. >> he's trying. so good. >> mike, thanks so much. >> have a rocking week. >> you too. [ laughter ] coming up, tiger woods wins again after making what might have been one of the best shots of his career. not that one. we're going to tease you. you'll see it in sports. for three hours a week, i'm a coach.

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some other headlines we want to show you, tomorrow voters in wisconsin will head to the polls to determine the fate of republican governor scott walker. walker faces off against democratic challenger tom barrett in the state's recall election, which has become a flashpoint in the debate over labor unions and workers'

rights. the result of tuesday's vote will also be an early indicator of the political climate in the badger state ahead of the general election. so far, the race is turning out to be the most expensive in wisconsin election history with 63.5 million dollars already spent. the majority by governor walker. both candidates are receiving funds from outside of the state. nearly 2/3 of walker's $30.5 million have been from donors outside of wisconsin. a quarter of barrett's funds have been from out of state. overall, walker has outraised barrett by a ratio of 7.5 to 1. according to a recent marquette university poll, walker leads barrett by seven points, 52% to 45%. we'll be covering that closely over the next couple of days. elizabeth warren is now officially the democratic nominee for the senate seat once held by the late ted kennedy. warren won an overwhelming majority of the votes at the massachusetts democratic convention on saturday, taking

95.7% of the 3,500 delegates in attendance. warren's only challenger failed to break the 15% threshold to force a primary in september. warren and incumbent senator scott brown will soon set up their debate schedule in one of the most closely watched senate races of the year. according to the latest "boston globe" poll, warren trails scott brown 39% to 37%. that's close. but the western new england university polling institute has warren holding a slight lead over brown, 45% to 43%. that's going to be exciting to cover. up next, "the new york times" mark leibovich will join us. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks.

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welcome back to "morning joe" at 42 past the hour. time now for the must read opinion pages as we take a live look at the white house. a beautiful day in washington, d.c. and with us now from washington, "new york times" reporter mark leibovich, who writes about what the two opposing presidential candidates have in common. and in parts he writes this. by the way, it's called "the candidates have college, spicy chicken, and "star trek" in common." parts of unit. they both like process driven decisions, ipads, abc's "modern family," and chicken. while a few shared tastes do not erase the general distaste of this campaign, the candidates do have a surprising amount in common. interviews with people from the candidates overlapping realms at harvard and the health care policy arena and in politics yields similar observations about their personalities and

their leadership and decision making styles. both are analytical introverts, operating in a province of extroverts. you talk about their intraverted personalities, mark, and how they both managed to succeed in politics despite those personalities. >> these are both people who clearly are very cerebral. they live in their head a lot. i think when you talk to people who know them both, you hear a lot of recurring adjectives like data driven, keep very, very tight circles. and they both have a lot of things in their backgrounds. they both lived abroad, attended multiple colleges, both were considered sort of short timers in their previous jobs. no one is going to argue that these are the same people by any stretch of the imagination. but i do think this was kind of striking that there is a lot of overlap between them, personalitiwise and maybe even leadershipwise. >> it's willie. our friend ed rendell says

neither of these two guys is the epitome of the back-slapping paul. that's probably true. but what are the implications of that for president obama? does that spill over into him not reaching out and having, you know, john boehner and mitch mcconnell to the white house for a few beers? is there an implication of that or just an observation about his personality? >> it could be both, given it's from rendell. in many ways during his presidency, president obama has outsourced a lot of his back slapping paul stuff to vice president biden, whether it's working the hill or working with foreign leaders or sort of working union halls in the rust belt and things like that. so, no, i don't think president obama -- i would somewhat disagree with governor rendell when he says that being shy is rare in politics. i think one of the things that politicians do is they sort of compensate for kind of natural shyness by becoming extroverts and sort of, you know, just working really, really hard in that sort of external realm.

but i do think that clearly this is something that has hurt president obama at a time when people really do want to see a much more engaged and sort of, you know, maybe sort of socially engaged personality at the white house. >> all right. go ahead, meacham. >> mark, one thing that is a difference that stands out, it's hard to imagine two men with more different pa tential story -- paternal stories. talk about that. >> it's interesting. you talked about this in a story you did for "newsweek" four years ago. obama has said, and he is quoting someone else, but he says that every man is defineda -- every man is either trying to make up for his father's mistakes or live up to his father's expectations. and clearly these are both people who have defined themselves through the experiences of their fathers. in obama's case, it's been the absence of his father. in governor romney's case, he clearly was growing up in the shadow of george romney, his father. and both of them if you sort of talk to people around them have

come to define themselves through these images. and that's -- i think it's sort of a striking similarity between them, because while clearly they have come from very, very different worlds, it does sort of form how they have come to sort of see themselves in the world and kind of inform the paths they have taken. >> mark, one of the other interesting paths you go down in the piece is just the -- how far back you can trace them looking to the white house, both of them, deval patrick talks about governor romney just taking the job in massachusetts as governor as sort of a weigh station on the way to 1600 pennsylvania avenue. president obama was accused of winning the senate and immediately running for president. how far back can you trace if for both of these guys? >> you can always sort of look to politicians and look at when they are kids and sort of say, well, you know, right then, we knew. or right then we thought they were headed to the white house. or wanted to be at the white house.

look, these are people who at various stages of their lives were seen as either short timers or people who were in a hurry. and also in a very real sense talented enough to maybe make it to a very, very high level in this game. and i think, you know, certainly in their last and most recent jobs in the senate and as governor of massachusetts, they were people who really, really had very little -- not very, very little dealings with them. if you talk to people around obama and romney, they didn't have fun in their state government jobs but in president obama's case in the senate. so yeah, that's something you see. you see it in bill clinton. you've seen in a lot of people over the years. but there are also people who have sort of come late in life to this pursuit, like george w. bush, for instance, so i think obviously different paths can lead to this job. >> just quickly, mark. i have seen president obama do

the vulcan -- i can't do it -- >> nanu nanu? >> no, have you ever seen romney do it? >> i have never seen him do the vulcan salute. he says he is a big "star trek" fan. i take him at his word. but when i asked him a follow-up, if he was a trekky, he absolutely ran from that term. >> wouldn't go there? >> president obama, on the other hand, is very, very unabashed. he admitted to a youthful crush on lieutenant uhura. he had the actors at the white house. they posed together with the vulcan salute. he greeted leonard nimoy with the vulcan salute. >> should we stay after romney on this? >> i think it is. i think this is something that will dog him. i think it's sort of some the same vein of seamus. it's a story with if not legs, a salute.

>> he was a trekky before there wasn't trekkies. >> he's a flip flopper. >> nannu nannu isn't even close? >> no. >> mark leibovich, thanks. great to have you on. up next, we'll bring in "hardball's" chris matthews and gillian tett. we'll be right back with much more "morning joe."

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i need a clarifier. >> mika wants a clarification that mork and mindy used to do this as well. >> in my knowledge of pop culture is so bad. >> did they do this? >> yeah, they did. >> was it a play on the vulcan thing? >> i don't know. i don't care. you look at me like i'm crazy, and i'm absolutely right. >> all steve rattner knows is west side. [ laughter ] >> i have one for you too, but why don't you do sports? >> let's do some sports. coming off a huge win in game three, we touched on at the top of the show, the celtics at home against the heat with a chance to even it 2-2. celtics up by as many as 18 points in the first half. earth third quarter, rondo, 15

points and 15 assists, a little underhanded scoop. another big night for rondo. but the heat get going, clawing back in the fourth. mario chalmers to wade for the dunk. that tied the game with five minutes left. final seconds, lebron with the ball. two seconds left. he gives it up to. tied at 89- 89 to go to overtime. 1:51 left in regular overtime. that's the first time he has fouled out. four seconds left, heat down. dwyane wade, great look at the basket. that three would have won it. but it's just off. celtics hang on to win game four, 93-91. six of them scored double figures. pierce had 23 before he fouled out. the series picks up for game five tomorrow night in miami,

tied at 2-2. spurs and thunder tonight in san antonio. that series also tied at 2-2. 11 days until the start of the u.s. open, tiger woods putting the tour on notice. in an incredible performance yesterday at the memorial in ohio, seventh hole, tiger with a chance to birdie. he sinks the long putt to close in on the leaders. one of the four birdies on the front nine. 16th hole, shot of the year so far, tiger flops it up there and lets it roll. he rolls by, that thing keeps rolls but he sinks it. unbelievable birdie chip. he got some help from his competition who bogeyed. then a beautiful birdie putt put it away on 18. that was after a par on 17. gets him to nine under for the tournament. his 73rd tour win of his career. that ties jack nicklaus, the man you see right there, for the second most all-time, doork it at nicklaus' own tournament.

tiger, by the way, 10 years younger than jack was when he reached 73 wins. only sam sneed has more. jays in toronto. daniel bard was all over the place. nails escobar. he was checked out but takes a base. then he gets edwin encarnacion up on the wrist with the 92 mile per hour fastball. gone after allowing five runs in an inning and 2/3. he was wild. sixth, blue jays get them back. right up around youkilis' head. he is upset. he is saying if you're going to hit me, hit me low. he was ok. blue jays win 5-1. and we should point out game three of the stanley cup finals tonight in los angeles. the kings won two games in jersey last week, looking to go up 3-0 tonight in l.a. we'll be right back here on "morning joe" with "the washington post's" ezra klein.

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there's only one voice worth listening to and that's the one saying you can do this. i'm standing here still in control of my weight with weight watchers, telling you to believe in that voice. join for $1. weight watchers. believe. because it works. this is a hostile environment for job creation in our economy. and that's why frankly it adds a sense of urgency in terms of this year's election to be able to turn things around because the only thing that's going to change it are changing the

policies, and that means changing the person in the white house. >> no one is arguing whether mitt romney is qualified to be president. we are arguing whether he is qualified to call himself a job creator. that wasn't what he did in business. and it's certainly not what he did in massachusetts where they had one of the worst economic records in the country. so when you hold yourself out as an economic oracle and you say to people, trust me, i know how to move the company forward, and your record says something else, of course you're going to get challenged for that. >> top of the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." live look at capitol hill. a beautiful day in washington. jon meacham and steve rattner are still with us. and joining us from washington, we have ezra klein. and here on set, the chairman and ceo of the holding company ndc partners miles nadal back on the show. good to have you on. >> pleasure to be here. >> good day to have him on. >> how are you guys doing? that's a good way to start.

>> how is the business? >> well, business has been very good. but it was interesting. i was with 120 top ceos thursday and friday. and i would say to you that since 2008, i haven't seen more concern on the faces of executives than i see right now. people are talking about the possibility of the recreation of the kind of uncertainty we had in 2008. you know, i think that the stock market is reflecting that. the market in may was at 1422. the s&p is now at 1272. you know, the 10-year bond is now at 1.5%. you know, the market is trading at 12.4 times earnings. and the interesting thing that they talked about was china. big concern with china, the slowdown in the last 60 days. india is a disaster. the eu obviously has challenges. and, you know, america has got a bunch of issues that are really looming. the debt ceiling not the least of which.

and, you know, you have got a situation where now you need 3% growth just to keep unempl unemployment -- gdp growth to keep unemployment flat. and 3% growth feels like a recession. it may not be technically a recession, but it feels like a recession. >> steve, i take it you're hearing a lot of what he's talking about. you showed the intrade chart, a lot of business owners that i have talked to sort of had that feeling on friday. there was like this gasp. >> no. i think miles has it exactly right. i would say europe may be even more of a worry than miles put it on his list. but there's definitely a slowdown here. and i think you're seeing now economists revising down their forecasts for jobs creation for the rest of the year. i think the hope had been that unemployment rate would be below 8% at the time of the election. maybe plus or minus 7%. and i think there's a lot less

clarity around that right now. i think we're in a very, very uncertain period. >> ezra, talking about the numbers as you see them, obviously you follow the economy every day. it does certainly look like a slowdown in the u.s. economy, but even more of a slowdown in europe and china. >> yeah. they are bad numbers. and i'm much more worried. i think it's good we're focusing on china. just a couple of months ago we were getting readings every month of the jobs report of above 200,000 jobs. that was true in january, february, and december. and people were trying to come up with why that would be the new normal, why we would go down as steve puts it 7.8%, 7.5%. the may report was terrible. but i think in the way we overread those numbers, we could be overreading these too. a lot of what we are seeing in the american job members is payback for some of the warm weather growth we had early in the year. some of it may just be

fluctuation in the labor market. i'm very concerned. i don't want to sound overly optimistic note here. but it's really important to remember that we have a tendency to take whatever has just been happening and push it forward. and so far in this recovery, our crisis or whatever you want to call it, that's not tended to stay true for very long. >> i think ezra has a fair point, and there are some questions around the seasonal adjustments of these numbers and whether they are really accurate given the fact as i said earlier that we've had two spring slowdowns. there's also some -- and i don't want to get too technical, but there's other readings of employment, the so called adp report that is stronger than what our jobs report is showing. i don't think we're going into another recession. i don't think it's a double dip situation. but i do think given the downward revisions in the previous two months, i do think it's more worrisome than just one month of data. >> and we are so interconnected, jon meacham, that as europe falls, what happens in greece? what happens in spain, what

happens in italy, it impacts china and impacts us. this isn't -- obviously, this isn't all in the president's hand or congress' hands. >> the domino effect may not have been good cold war analysis but is good global economy analysis. i was going to ask you, in terms of taking all of ezra and steve's points in terms of not overreading the numbers, i'm more interested in the faces you saw. >> see, i think that's a bigger issue. i think the financial results are a byproduct of confidence and action. what i'm seeing are -- is more concern, less confidence, and a trepidation to be making capital investment and employment decisions of growth. and the other thing that no one is talking about is the availability of capital. i mean, the high yield markets have basically seized up. the bank market has seized up. and all of those things play into the fact that you're not going to have investment to the extent necessary to create jobs.

so i agree with what steve and ezra said, that you can't just look at the numbers. but when i look at confidence levels of ceos and their mindset, their mindset is not as expansionary as, say, it was a year ago in that regard. >> so what's hampering that? what's making their mindset less expansionary? >> well, first of all, you have tremendous lack of confidence in government. you have the uncertainty of what's the -- you know, you have a negative 5% gdp growth impact with, you know, the taxes coming off and spending coming down. >> are you talking about what happens at the end of the year? >> yeah. and you have a big fear of what's going to happen with the debt ceiling. i mean, people are worried that we could come down to the same issue we faced before. >> ezra, you look at the economy today, and you look at the business owners that we all have heard of, had trillions of dollars on the sidelines, and we've been waiting for them to invest. if they look at washington, and they don't know what's going to happen other than there's going

to be a lot more indecision, and they look at not only the tax cuts expiring but obviously the massive spending cuts that are going to be coming their way, there's not really any reason for any business owners, big or small, to have confidence that washington is going to take care of things. >> no. i think miles has it exactly right. our best hope is honestly they are not paying very close attention right now, but i don't think that's going to prove accurate. we have at the end of this year just in america, as he put it, we have a massive, massive fiscal crisis we're looking to begin. the bush taxes could all expire at once. the automatic spending cuts from the debt deal could all begin at once. we have a 7.5 trillion dollar drag beginning at the end of 2012. that will happen potentially, and then we're going hit the debt ceiling. so that will be much, much worse than even the august 2011 debt cri crisis which dealt a real body blow to the economy.

here in washington, we are talking about whether we are going to make things worse. there is no talk about making things better or policies that would do more to support the market, more to support the labor market, that would do more to create jobs. we are basically -- washington at this point on the economy is neutral to negative at best. that's a real problem. >> mitt romney's campaign, on this backdrop, is seizing on the unemployment news in what they describe as evidence as a filed white house agenda. take a listen. >> what we really have here is a deficit in leadership. and this president came into office without any prior experience running anything. he never even ran a corner store. and i think it shows in the way he's handling the economy. >> on the other hand, the obama campaign argues that the economy would be in a much stronger position if congress would do more to put the nation back to work. >> the proposals that we've put forward that have been sitting there for nine months, you know, independent estimates have put those proposals at 1 million jobs.

so there are a million jobs sitting on that table in congress right now that they could move on. they need to get off their hands and stop rooting for failure. >> how about the keystone pipeline? you don't need congress to do that. >> that's a fraction of the jobs that could be created. >> pretty important jobs. >> and we have extended the keystone pipeline at different points in the country. it's currently under review. >> you know, there's a disconnect, mika, from reality. on the campaign trail, which is why more and more americans are just so disconnected from the process. i remember back in 2010, at the end of 2010 we would talk to some of obama's top adviser and saying, why aren't you following chuck schumer's idea to at least raise taxes on the millionaires? and they would frantically say, because we're in a recession, sounding like jack kemp. i guarantee you if, if you got the 10 republican leaders on capitol hill together with the

top 10 democratic leaders on capitol hill, and put them in a room and said, you guys can't come out until you come up with a plan that's going to actually turn the economy around and not play to your base, i guarantee you they would give a short-term stimulus, they would give us long-term debt reduction, and they would reform the tax code in a way that's fairer and encourages business investment. i mean, you hear these people talking about, listen, i love the keystone pipeline. i put 20 of them out there. that's great. that's not going to turn around the economy, right? and all of these other things that people are bringing up on the left and the right. just completely avoid the bigger issue. and i'm not -- listen, i'm not being like mr. down the middle warm and fuzzy. i am a right-wing small government conservative. but, miles, if you're a business owner, and you go in and you've got to clean this thing up that we call the federal government. you'd look at the balance sheet, and say, long-term debt, boy,

that really sucks. if interest rates go up, we're going to collapse. first thing, we're going to take care of the long-term debt. but you know what? i can't cut spending on the short-term because this country is kind of -- this business is sagging along. so if the banks see me cutting in the long-term, they are going to give me slack to spend some money in the short-term. i mean, everybody knows that's the way to do it. but nobody will. >> so why was simpson bowles not something that an intelligent person would say that's a good platform and foundation by which to work with? why didn't that address most of the issues we're talking about? >> that is a great question, and jon meacham has the answer. >> jon? >> well, we have only asked that an infinite number of times. you know, i think the white house tells you political reality it would have just gotten knocked down and set back the overall cause, i think is the argument. >> i still think, steve rattner, that politically, this won't pass -- this will not pass

politically. but just as far as the white house boxing romney in the corner, i still think, you know what, i'm going to put simpson bowles on -- you know, going to ask harry reid to put it on the senate floor and we're going to fight like hell to pass it. i still think that's a good move for the president to make politically. >> let me be slightly more optimistic about the future. ezra, i think, is right in assessing the probability of negative versus positive. but one, i don't really believe we're going to go over the fiscal cliff because it's so insane that i have to believe ultimately logic and rationale -- >> you have faith in washington? >> well, i don't want to go that far. >> you just went that far. >> oh, dear. >> i just think this is so dramatic that i don't believe in the end that will happen. and i do think there's a nontrivial chance that after the election, after we get past this year of craziness and it's all politics, that people will get together and do something like simpson bowles. there are 10 republicans and 10 democrats who are saying, and you could put them in a room and

they would come up with something that made a lot of sense. the problem is you do have extremes on both ends that will try to block anything like what you're talking about. >> so, ezra, everyone says after the election it will get better. can we wait until after the election? at some point, aren't even voters going to smarten up to the fact that our reality needs to be dealt with and both sides need to make some sort of deal? >> well, we shouldn't be waiting in will after the election. i do worry that we will. and to some of miles' points here, even between now and the election we can make the economy worse by signalling we're not going to do anything until after the election and we still don't know what we're going to do after the election. uncertainty is not just always a talking point. so if you're sitting here for the next year talking about how we're going to have a massive rattner style battle over the fiscal crisis, over the debt ceiling, that will be one more reason for businesses to sit on the sidelines. i think we should say, you know, i'm completely in agreement that the obama administration should have done much more on simpson

bowles and have argued this many times. but at this point, they do have this plan out there this is a short-term stimulus and the american jobs act married to a variety now of longer term deficit reduction plans they have put out that are a lot closer to simpson bowles than the republicans put forth. it doesn't go all the way. it doesn't perfect. but they argue at this point, and they are right, they have been browbeaten into putting this forward and congress simply isn't moving on it. when simpson bowles came onto the house floor, it was defeated 338 to a couple of votes. >> miles? >> well, simpson bowls wasn't even dealt with. the president just ignored it. not making a decision is making a decision. to decide to not do anything is actually to make a decision. i think in the minds of most business leaders, more important than who is the next leader, it's how do you eliminate gridlock. if you can't eliminate gridlock, then ultimately the leadership issue is irrelevant because nothing will get dealt with. i have a question for you.

so what people basically said was the best thing for business would be a republican landslide. the next best thing, nobody could decide. they couldn't say what the second best alternative was. >> who said that? >> these were 100 top ceos. and they said the best thing for business would be a republican landscape. the second best, nobody had a point of view. but you needed something to unlock the gridlock so that people could actually make decisions and implement plans that would stimulate the economy. >> well, all i would say as a loyal republican is, that's what we had for a lot of the past 10 years. and, i mean, how's business doing now? i don't know that the republican landslide is the answer. i'm concerned if the president gets re-elected and the republicans win the house and the senate, you're going to have more of the same. at some point, the president

either president obama or president obama romney are going to have to reach out. they are going to have to reach out. because guess what? even if there are 49 democrats and 51 republicans caucusing, democrats can stop everything. absolutely everything. because of the senate rules. at some point, whoever wins is going to look in the mirror and realize they are going to have to grow up. and guess what? jon meacham, if it's a republican president, they are going to look at what happened to barack obama the past four years, just as republicans look at what happened to george bush the last eight years and democrats look at what happened to bill clinton for the eight years. at some point we fall off the cliff if somebody doesn't get elected and grow up. and of course i'll let everybody yell and scream that barack obama was the most bipartisan president since george washington, if that helps them sleep at night, fine. neither side has bathed

themselves in glory. >> that's certainly true. i think there's a good case to be made that one of the things governor leavitt should be doing with romney is suggesting an inaugural address that talks about a one-term presidency. that i'm going to propose this. i'm going to the house. >> you're such a presidential historian. >> ezra, and the chances of that are? >> zero. >> that's right. >> but miles makes an important point here, that gridlock is a key problem. and i think that we do need to start thinking in the longer term way about things that would make it easier for congress and the president to act. i would put at the top of my list filibuster reform. we can talk about others. but this gridlock is huge. >> yeah. and, jon, again, it continues. regardless of who gets elected. because even if the republicans sweep, if you got harry reid running 49 democrats, they are

not going to pass anything unless harry reid and dick durbin and chuck schumer says they are going to pass it. >> the strength of partisanship is bipartisan. >> i'm going to write that down. that's deep thoughts by jack handy. thank you, ezra. >> thank you. up next, "hardball's" chris matthews will join the conversation. and here in the studio, the u.s. managing editor of the u.s. financial times gillian tett will join us. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. this country was built by working people.

the economy needs manufacturing. machines, tools, people making stuff. companies have to invest in making things. infrastructure, construction, production. we need it now more than ever. chevron's putting more than $8 billion dollars back in the u.s. economy this year. in pipes, cement, steel, jobs, energy. we need to get the wheels turning. i'm proud of that. making real things... for real. ...that make a real difference. ♪ [ male announcer ] from our nation's networks... ♪ ...to our city streets...

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michelle, are coming to my house for dinner on june 14. and i want you to be there too. but you have to go to joinobama.com for your chance to win, and the contest ends tomorrow night. so go right here, right now, because we need him. and he needs us. >> i'm barack obama, and i approved this message. 123 past the hour. joining us from washington, the host of msnbc's "hardball" chris matthews. chris, good to have you on this morning. >> good morning, mika. >> and here in new york, u.s. managing editor for "the financial times" gillian tett is back. good to have you as well. >> thank you. >> ezra is gone. >> chris, we have been talking about these horrible headlines on friday morning that were out even before the jobs report came out. and steve rattner, of all the charts he showed, the one that was most surprising was the intrade chart, where the president's numbers went straight down on friday.

is this a bunch of hyperventilating about what's going on in europe and china and america? there's the intrade numbers. >> yeah. i like that. i always look at the dublin numbers there. >> yeah. >> or does the president really have something to worry about here? >> well, i think it was a game change on friday in the sense that the obama campaign had been focused heavily on the negative on going after bain, going after more recently the massachusetts record, the 47th in job creation. and i never thought that was much more than a nice sort of pushback. it's like a pitcher throwing at the batter once in a while just to keep it tough. but, you know, the honest answer is in baseball terms, this election is always going to be about the guy on the mound, not the guy in the bullpen. you can't focus a game or a manager's decision, which is we're the managers, the professionals, the voters, you can't say the guy in the bullpen isn't really hot tonight. they are watching that guy on the mound. right now you have a growth rate for this year below 2%. you've got the 8.2 things

creeping up on the jobless number. and he's not performing out there the way that voters score this thing. so he's got to change this thing. he's got to change it from if he can't change the economic numbers between now and october, and he probably can't, he's going to have to change the way we look at the box this presidency came in, which is what he inherited. he has to be careful about that. but more importantly what he's facing in the world context. we all know we live in a global world. he's got to talk about what he's up against. those headwinds out there and how tough it is. and how he's brought back thanks to steve the auto industry and how he has to do more in terms of public sector investment. if i were him, i know i'm going beyond your question, but i just say, joe, i don't understand why he thinks small. why doesn't he say, look, we brought back the auto industry. why don't we bring back the highways? do what eisenhower did. upgrade like he did in the '50s. where is europe ahead of us? why is everything falling apart? why don't we invest in our public sector while interest rates are practically zero. and all of these unemployed

people out there, this is a good time to do stuff. instead, he has this highway built up there on the hill and the so-called jobs bill that i don't even know what's in it. if they are going to say no to spam, say no to steak. have a big program. let congress say no to it. alongside a good debt reduction program down the road. he doesn't seem to have anything on the plate right now. and that's his problem as pitcher. you don't think of him out there pitching, and that's my main point. >> that's a great point, chris. i started saying last week one of the things that even though i disagree with the president's policies domestically, i were advising him, i would say, run straight into the fire and go -- everywhere you go, you say, you know what? things aren't great right now. but you know what? if washington -- if we didn't do what we did, your atm machines would have stopped working. if we didn't do what we did, detroit would have gone out of business. and with it, midwest jobs.

if we didn't do what we did, you know, and go on and on, they -- it seems like -- and have you this happen with democrats a lot. it seems like they're afraid to tell people what they believe and what they did. i don't understand that, chris. >> you're right, joe. it's projected forward. it's about the next four years, not the last four. but they have got a track record. just like -- i think we all agree that the most effective ad that the romney people have put on the air yet is the one that starts with keystone because obama made a mistake on that. there's an open mistake. i don't know if he can fix it. it's probably too late. but that's a good job creation problem. tangible construction jobs. and what's the cost? nobody can even remember what the environmental cost was here. we just know the benefit we kissed goodbye to. but the auto industry is much bigger, much bigger than the idea of the keystone. he should be running on what he's done and saying, i'm going to do this. how about this? my way is the highway. my way is the highway. we're going to build this country the way eisenhower did in the '50s.

>> that's pretty good. >> do what republicans used to do. you have an auto industry. where are you going to run the car? he has to be big and noisy and loud like me instead of talking about bain, that's below him. talking about massachusetts. who cares about massachusetts 20 years ago? focus on the future. >> yeah. i couldn't agree more about the auto industry. gillian, go ahead. >> well, i'm sure the president's advisers will be telling him right now to stop pointing the finger overseas and say the reason why things are slowing down is because of the eurozones are because of china, because of the rest of the emerging markets and stuff. the problem is, though, that so much of the issue that's dampening sentiment in the u.s. right now is this concern about gridlock and the fiscal cliff. and we have an editorial today saying, you know, what congress can do is actually try to give some signals they are going to address the fiscal cliff or at least try and work out some kind of solution. because without that, you're just going to see rolling shocks in the next few months. and that's very bad for business

confidence and consumer confidence. >> miles? >> you know, we talk about the stock market decline of 11% in the last month. and it's not coincidental that the president's popularity has declined in unison with that. but think about the implication. because we're not talking about it. everybody's 401(k) has wiped out all of the equity value that we created this year. basically, everybody's 401(k) is now flat. so of course people are very concerned. because their savings and their long-term retirement plan now has zero value. i think what chris said, which is really critical, it's about the next four years. it's what is he doing to give people confidence that the next four years will be better. what's he doing to create confidence that there will be job stimulation, there will be economic incentives to stimulate the economy, that the market is

a voting machine in the short-term, but it's long-term about a wing machine. but what are we doing to incent vise people to invest in jobs programs that are ultimately going to stimulate the growth that's necessary to create value. >> and, chris, i just wonder, and i can't wait to hear from jon as well on this, what is it about this president that seemed to think so big four years ago, that today seems incapable of carrying out the type of strategy that harry truman carried out in 1948, a guy who was back to the wall, a guy who was considered a loser, a guy who was going to be sent home to missouri? he railed against the do nothing congress, and he won. why doesn't it seem that the president is able to fight in that style? >> well, a couple of things. first of all, truman had a 6%

growth rate in '48 which helped him get elected. he was doing pretty well economically. but you're dead right. you go back over the steps. why didn't he back simpson bowles and say, look, i hate it, it does stuff i don't like, but we have to start somewhere. i had 11 votes. i wish i had 14. but i don't care, you got my vote. he could have done that. he could have found some way of not screwing around last august trying to up the revenue number from $800 billion to $1.2 trillion bol oxing up the deal he had with boehner. i know it was flragile. i talked to a moderate democrat and he said the number one thing we could do for the market for confidence for the consumer, for the investor, for the retiree or about to retire, is a long-term debt reduction plaqn agreed to y this government, meaning the house and the senate and the president, agree to a deal to stick to reduce the debt. it seems to me that would just

be the greatest gong out there. we would all hear it and say, dammit, these guys can do their job. i know it will be hard to do that before the election. but the president ought to be out there saying, i'm first. put me down for it. i'm john hancock. i'm signing on. and lead the way on debt reduction, long-term, short-term job creation. everybody knows what they want done. they want jobs now, long-term debt reduction. i think they go hand in hand. and the president is out there talking to these movie stars talking about you have dinner with michelle and the president. what's this mickey mouse stuff? who's going to vote for a guy for that stuff? i have one chance in a million to have dinner with the president. that affects my enthusiasm? no. enthusiasm comes from leadership. he stuck his neck out. he put them on the line. when he came out against the iraq war as a young guy. that's why he's president. somebody should remind him, you know why you're president? because hillary didn't do it, and you did. and that's what got you the presidency. >> yeah.

>> you stuck your neck on the line and said i'm against this stupid ass war, and that's why he's president. not because he was careful. >> gillian? >> i couldn't agree more. basically, if the president wants to come out now with a clear plan to build confidence, it would actually give him in breathing space to possibly even spend a bit more in terms of stimulus. and the key thing to understand is that america has been given an extraordinary free pass right now. because everyone is panic being the eurozone, bond deals on the american market have plunged to very, very low levels. so there isn't the pressure right now to act in terms of what the markets are saying. but if people sit on their hands forever, a big crunch is going to come at some point. so there really needs to be some medium term plan. >> jon meacham, does the president have anything to turn on the dime now? because you almost get a sense that over the past six months, nine months, the obama team's been lulled into a false sense

of security because of the clown show that was the republican nomination process. and i think they thought -- not only thought, but they would say it every day, privately, look who we're up against? and they woke up, and they are up against a moderate republican that doesn't scare people. in the middle. >> he does have -- you're right, and ii think chris is right, he does have this in him. one of my favorite anecdotes is when his stepfather taught him how to box, and he kept getting knocked down and he kept getting up and punched his stepfather again and again until he won. that's the guy who beat hillary. that's the guy who at the age of 44 became president of the united states. and he has to recover that. but he has to have some joy in the fight. all of the guys that we admire in national politics, whether it's chris' jack kennedy or fdr or ronald reagan, they loved the arena. and i just don't get the

impression that this guy loves the arena. >> and harry truman, miles, loved the arena even when it looked like he was going to lose. he got on a train and just beat the hell out of the republicans all summer. and shocked dewey and the world. >> but they had a plan. the question is, does the president have a plan? and the guy he was before being president, is he still the same guy today? and can he afford not to be bold? at this point in time, can he afford not to be bold? >> no. >> no. >> he can't. >> i don't think he can. >> joe, you're onto something. you know, at 1:00 in the morning when the temperature is 95 degrees in philadelphia, 1948, the old convention center, harry truman came on. worst hour of the morning, like 1:00 in the morning, and said, i'm calling congress back into session. and see if they are willing to pass what they promised to the american people. jam it at them. said, go ahead and say no to me.

and they did say no to him, but he won. >> and the president could do that on simpson bowles. they wouldn't pass it. but the president might win because of it. chris matthews, thank you so much. we'll see you at 5:00. and 7:00 eastern on "hardball." miles nadal, thank you as well. >> pleasure. great to be here as always. >> gillian tett, stay with us. good to have you. coming up, "marilyn and me" photographer is stopping by with unpublished pictures of marilyn monroe. keep it here on "morning joe." uncover stronger, younger looking skin.

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mr. mayor, the soda ban is a terrible idea. nobody is going to be down with it. >> i think it's a great idea. does anyone think their kid should drink this entire thing in a day? >> you solve obesity, you solve health care. it's done. it's that simple. >> "morning joe"? you're sponsored by star bubs. do you realize your personal sponsor beverages are pretty much indistinguishable from the

beverages you want outlawed? lady, lady, step away from the beverage, lady. step away. >> i need a ban. that just backs up the point. the mayor is onto something. >> even you. >> yes. we all need help. someone give me a better solution. just days after proposing a ban on the sale of large sugary drinks, new york city mayor michael bloomberg is receiving fierce backlash from those saying he is promoting a nanny state. the center for consumer freedom put this ad in saturday's "new york times," full page, say, quote, you only thought you lived in the land of the free. wow. ok. so they are really lashing out at the mayor. i just -- does anybody have a better idea and does anybody think junk food and those large sugary soft drinks don't cause obesity and are not directly linked to the obesity crisis? >> i think that the mayor is absolutely right. i think something needs to be done, and at least he is sending out a very powerful signal. and the more that people realize

that this issue is a bit like tobacco, then the better. >> it is. it will end up there. >> you could do that. just put a warning label like the cigarettes on it. >> you could. you could have it mired in the court system for years. >> like health care. >> yeah. >> up next, "me the people," a rewrite of the u.s. constitution. "morning joe" is back in a moment. [ jennifer ] what if i can't do it?

what if i can't lose the weight? what if weight watchers can't help me? what if i'm not ready for change? what if i fall back into old habits? what if i lose control? what if i gain it all back? what if there's always an excuse why i can't? what if i can't follow through? what if i fail? shhh. there's only one voice worth listening to and that's the one saying you can do this. i'm standing here still in control of my weight with weight watchers, telling you to believe in that voice. join for $1. weight watchers. believe. because it works. what ? customers didn't like it. so why do banks do it ? hello ? hello ?! if your bank doesn't let you talk to a real person 24/7, you need an ally. hello ?

ally bank. no nonsense. just people sense. [ male announcer ] they were born to climb... born to leap, born to stalk, and born to pounce. to understand why, we journeyed to africa, where their wild ancestor was born. there we discovered that cats, no matter where they are... are born to be cats. and shouldn't your cat be who he was born to be? discover your cat's true nature. purina one. who wrote the constitution? would you please recite the constitution? have you ever read the constitution? >> no. >> what's your favorite part? >> i like the bit around the edge.

i like that kind of -- the sort of -- like the -- like the old pirate map kind of coffee stained looking bit. >> who wrote the constitution? >> george madison. >> that's not a person. have you read the constitution? >> no. but i did see the movie. it was great. >> there is no movie. >> spoiler alert. sorry. >> oh, my gosh. that was an emmy award winning writer for the daily show kevin bleier hopelessly in search of answers about the constitution. his new book, "me the constitution: one man's quest to selfishly rewrite the constitution of the united states." give us the background. you wrote this with a quill and an etch a sketch? >> and i had no choice. the word there is "selfless." and i had no choice but to rewrite it because two centuries

ago, thomas jefferson said every constitution naturally expires after 19 years. i feel i'm 200 years overdue. i have been slacking for two centuries. >> serving the country, really. >> doing this book. >> yeah. >> kevin, what bugged you the both? you're reading this document that people like meacham says stands the test of time. you and i both know it's flawed. >> it's full of misspellings. it doesn't mention slavery or facebook. i don't know why they overlooked that. you have the preamble, which people are very inspired by, which as i recall was written by a man with a peg leg. he is a charming gentleman, but it barely gives the constitution a leg to stand on. >> boom. >> thank you. >> willie was there for me. >> oh, yeah. this is why. >> and you say that with first amendment protection. >> i do in fact. yes, indeed. and i believe -- i believe that it was -- and i want to be

correct about this, i believe it was based on the magna carta, which i'm pretty sure is british. and as i watched this weekend, as we all did, a thousand boats float down the thames, i only regret that i have one book to give for my country. >> but it's the most important one. meacham, challenge him. >> first of all, we should apologize correctively to gillian for having broken away and destroyed the empire. so we are sorry about that. >> i think we survived. >> yes. [ laughter ] >> very close. >> and i also apologize to those with one leg. there's a chapter where i talk about having only nine toes. and that's true. >> at what moment did you realize that you had a sacred calling to redo what george madison did? >> what i'm most reassured by is that the closer we get to, say, the 2012 election, the more i realize i've done the right thing. but i'm not -- i'm in mixed

company. because even last week, as you may have noticed, mitt romney himself suggested in vegas that we might reconsider the requirements for the presidency, and in fact suggested that perhaps three years of business experience is should be considered a constitutional requirement for the presidency. and i kind of thought that was a genius move. reduce the number of people eligible to be president until it only describes you. why not do that? mad genius. as these things happen, i'm reassured that people who are much more prominent than i am are also considering absurd solutions to the constitution that you might find in the book, for example. >> and you found in some several cases that is often honored more in the breach than in the observance. >> exactly. >> so what's the most important thing? if you could only rewrite one section, what would it be? >> well, what i love about it, and as you say in the breach, in reality, you have -- and i think that film at the top might suggest it.

do you have a populace that doesn't really -- obviously cozies up to the constitution as they should. it's a revered document, and we all appreciate it. absolutely. but it, but there's a bit of ignorance on the part of the american people. that goes across all spectrum. john boehner said his favorite part is we hold these truths to be self-evident. don't laugh, sir. exactly. precisely right. i had huge blind spottings. if you drilled befome before th started the project, i would probably agree if you told me the constitution say it was the best of times, it was the worst of times. what i have done here in bringing light to the constitution, people will look back at the actual constitution, see what it actually says, so the next time they might know it. >> underneath the humor rous laughs, there's actually a good

point. >> is there? >> i leave it to you. >> come on. >> geek mode. >> geek moment. >> that's chapter 12. >> the constitution is treated like a holy document. it's sited in speeches. yet i think you make a very good point. maybe it's time to have a look at parts of it and say is this actually what people need for the modern era for rebuilding america. >> precisely. you might know this. only months ago, she was asked about the constitution. it was not that surprising because she said that the american constitution, if she were designing a modern democracy now, would not be the one she would model it on, which is a little surprising.

most base their constitution on the american constitution. now none of them do. >> you do point out many of the founding fathers while writing this great document, completely drunk. >> they were a little sauced. some of them were. as it happens, for the prohibition chapter, you bet i did. many of them drank small beers and gave them long-winded speeches that i'm sure they thought were very charming. >> we continue here. the book is "me the people." thank you so much. still ahead, baseball, football, and polo? the so-called sport of kings is making end roads here in the u.s. and it has to do with the super star we're about to introduce you to. ♪ how are things on the west coast? ♪ ♪ i hear you... ♪ rocky mountain high

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friday's job numbers shake up the campaign for the white house? the famous charts are next on "morning joe." plus a look at marlin monroe. plus how kevin bleier lost his big toe. ovider is different

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one serving of cereal, a baseball. and one serving of fruit, a tennis ball. - you know, both parties agree. our kids can be healthier... the more you know. good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast. 5:00 a.m. on the west coast. welcome back to morning joe. as you take a live look at new york city. we have john mooe chum and steve rachner. >> friday you open up the wa"th street journal" and there's a story about china slowing down. south korea and australia and there's a story on the inside about spain's collapsing.

then there's a story about greece falling faster than anybody expected. then there's a story it about our gdp falling faster in the first quarter than anybody expected. one bad story after another. that was followed up by very bad news from the unemployment report. could we be moving towards a global depression? >> i don't know about a global depression, but possibly a global recession. that's what people are worried about. if europe melts down, it could drag down a lot of us with it. it's a reminder, and i read your blog post. we live in an intraconnected world. you can't think we can go off on our own. we're dependent on the europeans. we're dependent on asia. asia is dependent on the rest of us. and right now, there's a terrible fear that it europe has no idea what it's doing. >> if europe falls off a cliff, then china is adverse ri

affected. the united states is affected. everything falls. dominos just start falling. >> that's what you see going on in the stock market. china is slowing down because the developed world is slowing down. >> so is greece our liam lei man brothers. does the whole world have to get together now and say, listen, if greece falls, spain false. if spain falls, italy falls. >> the problem is the europeans have been too little too late at every step of the way. they still don't have a coherent policy. i was locked away with a bunch of them. they are smart, but they don't know what to do. >> you were locked away with a bunch of europeans?

>> and americans. >> wait a second. >> hold on one second. >> i'm the only one who got that? >> hit pause. >> we get it. because we're red necks. they warned us in sunday school about those people. they'd get together once a year. >> was my dad there? >> we don't talk about who is there. >> i'm going to get shot if i talk about it it. >> that means he was there. >> so let me talk about europe. >> not the trilateral. >> they have renamed it. they rebranded it. >> you get a big gulp for getting that. >> we're using up precious time. >> just think about all the conspiracy blogs we're helping now. >> bring us back to europe.

so you're in a room with a bunch of europeans. >> let's get back to the subject. >> the rattner group. the point is it's not just greece anymore. the point is they missed their moment to have it be just about greece. now it's about spain, maybe even france. along that sort of rolled over the markets and there's nothing good happening. >> wondering what it's like inside. >> so i'm just going to show this, what is it, a web ad? it will help us bring it back. >> enough with the conspiracy theories. >> what's wrong with you? my dad didn't start the tril trilater trilateral. >> the commission, all

government, the basil thing. >> okay. >> all this stuff together. >> we started this talking about friday's jobs report. >> you know what i'm talking about. read about the revelation. >> i apologize. all right so the dismal jobs report. >> same day the dismal jobs report was released this weekend there's this web ad that was also released featuring long time vogue editor urging obama supporters to take part in an auction to win seats in the president's fundraiser. awkward timing. >> hi, i'm so lucky in my work i'm able to meet some of the most incredible women in the world. women like sarah jessica parker and michelle obama. these women are hosting a dinner along with the president in new york city to benefit the obama

campaign on june 14th. it will be a fantastic evening and you can join us. we're saving the two best seats in the house for you, but you have to enter to win. >> not sure how that will go in kansas. >> i'd like to go to the event. i admire her. the timing really, though, maybe a little off. >> just a smij. >> come hang out, high society, 1%. >> i think it's downtown. >> was that in your packet? >> so look behind really. can you get this. we're so easily distracted by these conspiracy theories. i was out last night because i didn't get invited to international organization events. i was out last night driving and it had been raining all

afternoon. it was an unbelievable sunset that stopped me. i pulled over to the side of the road. >> that's beautiful. >> i have never seen anything like it. and i caught it late. rainbows all over the place. i saw a double rainbow. >> cried a little bit. >> cried a little bit. >> do you think we ought to take a look at them? >> sure. why not? >> it's really out of control. let's talk about the jobs situation overall. >> the jobs or the mets and the no hitter? >>. at least there's good news within all the gloom. >> bill maher, new owner of the mets. they sold shares and bill maher bought some. >> they are playing good baseball with a limited budget. >> yeah. and they are tied for first

place now. >> the jobs situation overall. >> all right. so look. just to put it back in perspective. we went into this terrible recession, which happened to have really reached its peak right at the time president obama elected. so you see the loss of 700,000 jobs a month going on. the president comes in, and the unemployment rate is still rising. hits 10%. in 2010 we begin to see some recovery. we get some months of jobs. over 200,000. but we also get three springs in a row of weak job creation. and we don't know whether this may have some technical factors in how they calculate the numbers, may be the seasonal slowdown, and this time, it could be something worse. >> so does that also mean, and i can't dig in on the charts, does

that mean we have had three recoveries in the summer for slow springs? >> well two, and we'll see what happens this summer. it's come back twice before. >> but you would guess less likely this time because there's not the stimulus money out there. >> and also this europe problem. it's more of a feeling right now that the slowdown may be for real, but we don't know yet. the next chart is something people don't always fully pay attention to or understand, which is it's hard to have a robust job recovery when government, construction, homes in other words, and finance. they are all not contributing. they are either down in the case of government, down in the case of construction, flat in the case of finance. so even though we have created 2.5 million jobs since june of 2009, you have three sectors pulling it it down.

25% of all the jobs. >> a lot of the growth it drove it in 2008. >> it's hard to have a robust job recovery when a quarter of your economy is not recovering. >> does that suggest because of the presidential cam calendar, the rest of the year is going to be driven by that uncertainty? >> i think all the uncertainty, particularly the fact we seem to be making economic policy is very destabilizing. if you don't know if kbrr taxes are higher or lower, what deductions you're going to get or not beginning to get. it's hard to plan your business. >> who is going to invest right now? if you've been frozen because you weren't sure of the impact of health care or these other issues, i remember this was about the time every couple years that i'd just go to the

house floor and read roman history and greek history because i knew we were going to be sitting on the floor doing nothing because you're frozen in place for the election. and businessmen and women have been frozen in place for several years, steve. i would guess now, they don't know whether romney wins, they don't know if the president wins, there's so many questions out there right now. this would be the least likely of all times for people that have been sitting on the sidelines to throw money back into the economy. >> i agree. is and it's a real unfortunate consequence of our system and the fact we're in this endless, endless campaign. let's look at the stock market for a second. the beautiful sunset was the unfortunate stock market performance on friday. that was the last day of what we have had for quite awhile. it really started back with the april jobs report and the french and greek elections.

when the greeks could not produce a government that could implement policy, the -- >> holland struggled around the same time. >> the stock market rolled over. we didn't show all the history here, but we were up as much as 15% this year. since that date, it was just down. then with what happened on friday, it just rolled over. >> can you help me out with the banking sector? it's something i have never understood. so 2008 hits. the banks on wall street just get hammered. stocks go way down. then we're hearing the next year that they are celebrating some of the biggest profits they have ever had and passing out some of the biggest bonuses ever. everybody got angry. then six months later, a lot of middle level guys that i know working at all these banks are sweating it because they are about to get fired because i

guess bank profits started going down. why has it been down, way up, and seemingly down again? >> down financial crisis, way up because in this enormous infusion of government help on every front that recapitalized banks. a lot of banks got washed out of the system. you had mergers and consolidation. and this last year has been a tough struggle for the banks. low ipos, just a generally slow -- >> i don't understand. if they go down, then they make huge profits in '09 and '10 and then they start firing everybody again. do they not realize on wall street that there are cycles? >> remember it's not like they hired a lot of people. they made a good bit of money, thaw they found they had to

eliminate a bunch of people. one last chart. it tends to be a good predictor of things. this has been one of the most remarkable things i have seen. intrade was holding barack obama steady in this range. on friday it went down to 53% in the blink of an eye. that's something you don't see intrade do very often. so they are scared. >> if wasn't just one jobs report. >> no this was literally one jobs report. it's what happened on friday after the jobs data came out. it went from 57% to 53%. >> why is that? is it an accumulation of concerns that lead up to that? >> no, i think it's what you heard a little bit on the show earlier today. i think basically there's a sense that this election is

going to be all about jobs and all about the jobs numbers and the president's need to defend the election. intrade is saying we're not so confident now. it's a dog fight. >> you talk about trend lines. if you look at 1984. unemployment rate wasn't great, but it was getting better. if president obama gets worse, it makes the case harder to hang with me. he can't have a summer of ticking down. >> he can't. the problem with the unemployment number, which we all look at, i can tell you that the white house was just as concerned over the last two months as they were on friday. even though the number might have ticked down, people are giving up out there. they are getting out of the workforce. they are not looking for jobs. so i think taken all together, it's bad. gas prices are down.

one of my favorite quotes. there's a special providence that protects fools, drunkards in the united states of america every time. we're never getting out of this. boom. we explode. >> it protects the united states of america. it does not protect the incumbent president. >> a new book offers details on president obama's war on terror from his personal approval of drone strikes. the author joins us next. also this hour, marilyn and me. snapshots of marlin monroe is out going for $1,000. see them here first when a claimed photo journalist joins us with the photos and the stories behind the iconic images. plus headlines from the west coast papers including a $47 million fight in california over the tax on cigarettes. it's been very effective there,

you know. here's bill karins with a check on the forecast. >> strange start to our june weather out there. it doesn't feel much like summer in the northwest or northeast. that's the weather pattern as we set up throughout the day. very hot in the middle of the country, but we're stormy in numerous spots. what a gloomy weekend it was in new england. that continues. thunderstorms down through alabama and mississippi and even memphis early this morning. then the northwest, bring the umbrellas with you. a light rain heading north wards. the forecast for today. i mentioned it's going to be hot in the middle of the country. 96 in dallas. 91 in kansas city. billings, montana, in the 90s. 56 in boston. more of the same tomorrow. the weather pattern doesn't change much as we start this week. more like april in seattle. you're watching "morning joe." ♪

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welcome back to "morning joe." nbc news has confirmed this morning 15 people have been killed in northern pakistan after a u.s. drone fired two missiles as a suspected militant hideout. this is the third strike in the region over the past three days killing a total of 27 people.

joining us on is the author of the new book "kill or capture: the war on terror and the soul of the obama presidency." your reporting has been in the news for a couple weeks. it really does separate this president. first of all, from the previous preside president, but you also could argue, the way he campaigned. >> i think certainly the perception of how he campaigned, i think if you watch closely, obama was very critical of most of the bush/cheney policies and he talked about restoring constitutional values to the war on terror. one thing he didn't do, interestingly, is he didn't speak out against drones. he was a supporter, a quiet supporter of the drone program because it it sort of was in line with his basic mo in terms of fighting the war on terror,

which was to say fairly precise, surgical, and a way of not g getting involved in larger wars. a way of keeping boots off the ground, so to speak. >> right. but you could argue he's been more aggressive in many ways, including in the drone strikes. we have in the "newsweek" piece, obama saw the drones as a particularly useful tool in a global conflict but he was also mindful of the possibility of blow bo blowback. the scene is showing a commander who pursues the enemy without flinching. the president is not a robotic killing machine. the choices he faces are brutally difficult and he has struggled with them, sometimes turning them over in his mind again and again. the people around him have battled and disagreed. they have invoked the safety of

america on one hand and the righteousness of what america stands for on the other. that's your piece in "newsweek." what's the response been? >> i think it's been pretty good in the intelligence community. the reason is these issues, particularly when it comes to killing operations, have generally been shrouded in secrecy for good reason. i think there's a sense that this pulls back the curtain and shows the decisions are not being made lightly. there's an enormous amount of internal debate about who should be killed and who should be spared. there's moral issues, legal issues, smart policy. there's a fair amount of friction and tension surrounding those issues in my book. it's kind of a healthy dialectic. that fighting gets you to the right place. >> that he did campaign on.

he wanted a team to help him get better. >> and there is a team of rivals on these issues. i write about a couple characters. harold khouw, the top defense lawyer, these guys were at logger heads throughout much of ft administration. and you know, they also both go through transformations. harold was the former dean of the yale law school. and yet here he is on these kill meetings. he says at one point, how did i go from being a law professor to being involved in killing. how did i go from memorizing the names and faces of my law students, those who wanted to change the world using the law, to memorize iing the faces of vacant-eyed militants in somalia who are on my government's kill

list? and they are all struggling with these issues. i think that's impressive. the problem is there's this momentum towards more violence. as careful this president has been, it's hard to resist the military and this kind of force when there's a dangerous world out there. >> you mentioned the kill list. "the new york times" piece got a ton of attention. you write about it as well. can you explain for people who may not have dug deeply into that story, what does that mean? the impression you have is a president sitting alone giving a thums up or a thumbs down to names. >> there are two different programs. tlps the cia's drone program. the president does not decide those individual cases. but on the military side, he decided he wanted to be personally decided in making those decisions. partly a moral responsibility,

but also he was worried that military force could spin out of control. so there is a vigorous inner agency process where, you know, the agencies battle out individual cases. they will argue for weeks, sometimes months about an individual case. do we really have the legal authority to go after this particular person? then eventually, it goes to the president. john brenen, his chief counterterrorism advisor, and the vice chairman of the vice chiefs of staff would go to the president, sometimes taking him out of black tie dinners to have to make these grim decisions and the president would make them. what's interesting is more often than not, the president was actually scaling back the number of people who were being killed. he was concerned that they were not always being, what he called, aq focused. he wanted to make sure they were

focused on the real threat and he was worried about going after people who were say involved in local insurgencies. but he was also kind of a supple decision maker. and sometimes he could be purr sueded, one time in mid-execution, he could be persuaded to change a mind and go after a person. >> talk about indefinite detention and obama's concerns about what might happen down the road. >> you know, obama struggled on this issue in some ways more than any other other than i think the killing decisions. he's a constitutional law professor. thought deeply about these issues. what's really fascinating is his advisors thought he made the decision to accept some limited indefinite detention for the remaining detainees at guantanamo who they couldn't prosecute and they couldn't release. they were ready to have him sign

the executive order. and at the meeting in july, he said i'm just not there yet. i'm not comfortable with this. what he worried about, a president worrying about the precedent he was going to set in terms of giving presidents too much power. not because he thought he couldn't handle it. he had supreme confidence in his own ability to handle power. he was worried about the presidents who would come after him. he said a fascinating thing. he said i don't know who is going to be president four years from now. it could be mitt romney. i'm not sure i want to leave mitt romney with that kind of power. that was in '09. >> that's incredible. the book is "kill or capture." really important book. thank you so much. really good to have you on the show. great job with that. coming up, we'll talk to the man

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caddie ♪ ♪ but when i do i don't follow through ♪ ♪ cause my heart belongs to daddy ♪ ♪ if i invite a boy some night ♪ to dine on my hazard day ♪ i just am asking for more ♪ but my heart belongs to daddy ♪ >> that was a scene from "let's make love." it was on the set of this movie in los angeles where larry shiler at the age of 23 took snapshots of the iconic movie star for his very first time. to mark the 50th anniversary of her death, larry joins us to talk about his new memoir, "marilyn and me", a photographer's memories.

he also published a book of his photo es. . so 23 years old, you were? >> i was 23. i was just starting in photo journalism out of college and i was a scared kid. i photographed a couple celebrities. but "look" magazine called me and they wanted different point of view. i was the new kid on the block. i went out there and i was scared. and she walked by me just as i didn't even exist in the universe. she was unapproachable. then the press agent grabbed her and said this is larry from look. she turned around and became marilyn monroe. not because of larry shiller but because of "look" magazine. because that sold tickets. >> that mattered, the publication. so we have a series of photos to get right to. continue telling your story around each one. the first one where she's in the swimming pool.

>> this was taken two years later. i had already engrashuated myself by previously publishing her. she knew my work. i had a meeting with her about ten days before the shooting a scene in the film in which she's supposed to be swimming around in a nude-colored bathing suit so it it looks like it's not clothed. she said what if i came out with nothing on? and her press agent said you're not serious. she said i'm thinking about it. what we didn't know is the studio was already ready to fire her. she'd been late on the set costing them millions of dollars. she was going to try to prove she had enough publicity value as elizabeth taylor did. marilyn monroe wanted to do it. i was very cocky at that time. i still am a little.

i said you're already famous. now you're going to make me famous. she looked at me and said don't be so cocky. she said photographers like you can easily be replaced. she was a no nonsense woman. she had been run over by so many trucks already and survived those trucks. that's the interesting thing. >> how do you build trust with someone like marilyn monroe. >> i don't think there is any trust at all whatsoever. i think she gambled with me. it's very much like when i made the film "peter the great" in the '80s. the word trust doesn't exist in my dictionary, but i decided to gamble with you. that was it with marilyn also. there was very little trust at that point in her life. she had been inside, she had three marriages that had fallen

apart. she was struggling between her relationships with bobby kennedy and john f. kennedy, frank sinat sinatra. so she had few weapons left in her life to prove she was a great actress. >> in this period, she was all of 30? >> 35 years old when i photographed her the second time. but you have to remember, great actresses died at a young age too. but marilyn was somebody who was desperate at this point. i didn't realize it. and i was climbing the ladder and she was about ready to fall off of it tragically. >> there was a great photograph at marilyn's funeral of joe di imagine owe and his son. >> the night marilyn died, the phone records and joe jr. on the right in his military uniform was probably the last person to speak to her about the problems that he was having with his girlfriend.

and joe rushed to the mortuary after she died and made all the arrangements for the funeral and sent out the word that he didn't want anybody there except those who were really marilyn's friends. and there was joe walking with his son, solemn. it was a very difficult moment for him. the only thing is the chemistry of two world celebrities didn't work. >> how about the marilyn "life" cover you shot? >> this cover, which appeared after -- there were two covers. one with the famous swimming pool scene and this cover, which you're seeing on the screen, which surprised me myself when "life" used it the week after she died. it was called "memories of marilyn." here's this book with all of my

photographs. to give you an idea, that's one frame. but you want to see three frames that i took in a row, these are three different marilyns. look at that. and life picked the one befitting the moment. a picture editor can take the picture that makes the moment. and that did. and i'm very proud of that. >> why does marilyn monroe endure to this day? they are fascinated by her life. what is it about her? >> i had an exhibit that opened here in new york. they were all young girls that showed up. hundreds and hundreds of young kids. and mature women too. more women than men. marilyn never offended a woman. women were not offended if their husband was look at marilyn monroe. they wanted to save her life.

her mischarges, which she presented to the public in a very, very, i think, realistic way. i think her life was out there to be revealed, but not in a tabloid way. it was something that you felt i want to be part of that woman. i want to saver a little bit of her. she was a diamond that was cut a certain way. i don't think you can find another one. look at this picture. this is a beautiful young girl. this is the day before her last day on the set. and she's talking to tommy thompson to go with the story of my pictures. this is her leaving that afternoon. >> we have a couple more of your photos from the 1960s, your campaign photos. rfk asleep on the floor. why don't you continue the sentence. >> i think we were going from the dakotas to northern california. san francisco or some place. this was in may and june of 1968

before his untimely death. he was like everybody. he'd work late at night and you'd get on a plane and you'd have a four-hour ride. so you took the pillows and went on the floor and slept there. he slept like everybody else did. i remember an incident that took place. not with me, but i heard the story. i was in the back of the plane. there were other journalists in the front. they had some problems with the plane. it went down the runway and came back. the next time, he turned to a journalist and said i want you guys to know if we don't make it, i got the headlines, your name is in small print. but that was the ken dis. they let themselves open. and that was the wonderful thing. and ed gutman was wonderful. they surrounded themselves with really talented people. >> we could go on with these pictures. nixon conceding, my gosh. it's really nice to meet you.

the memoir is "marilyn and me." thank you so much for being on the show this morning. >> thank you for having me. up next, we'll look at how the markets are shaping up today after the drop following the tough jobs numbers. keep it it here on "morning joe." this country was built by working people.

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yesterday we were down more than 100 on the dow futures because of all the problems in europe. overnight, we got this talk about a potential master plan. sounds ominous, right? but we don't know what's going to happen. but the idea is this. basically, europe is talking about becoming even more like the united states in terms of fiscal and monetary management. bringing all the countries under one umbrella. not sure if it's going to happen. but the futures are maybe mildly down to even flat. we turned around overnight on talk of maybe just the bazooka of european aid. >> we never got to this. the front page of "the new york times." the brawl in california over a cigarette tax. >> it's a weird story. california has a proposal to raise the cigarette tax for the first time in 12 years. and by polls, most californians support it. it would raise $735 million. here's the problem.

there are some people that would support it that are not because the money would not go to the state for budgetary reasons. instead all the money would go toward fighting cancer, which is a great cause and nobody is saying that it's not, but some people who would support the tax are saying why don't the state's general treasury get some of this cash, that we shouldn't have this huge tax and not see anything from. it used to be seen as anti-smoking, but i think their tax rate is 33rd in the united states. so watch proposition 29 very closely. being a native californiaen, it's a funny state. proposition 13, my parents loved it. but they would probably hate it now because the school systems are going downhill. they can't raise taxes in any form. there you go. >> brian sullivan, thanks. up next, more "morning joe" in a moment.

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he's being called the david beckham of polo. when he isn't modelling for ralph lauren, he's out on the

polo field playing the so-called sport of kings. he saddle led up for a charity match with the new york city skyline with a backdrop. so we sent out our chief polo correspondent lewisberg dofr to catch up with him. >> you may recognize him from countless ralph lauren fashion campaigns, but it isn't just his stunning good looks in magazine ads that he's spreading around the world. it's also his passion for the sport of polo. >> it's my life. i love the sport. it's my life. >> reporter: he's teaming up to promote polo in major u.s. cities. the classic this saturday at liberty island is considered one of new york's star-studded events of the summer. >> we do it in new york and l.a. and other parts of the world. it's always been my mission.

obviously, it has been a fundamental piece of raising at awareness of the sport. >> reporter: not only does it create buzz about the sport, it supports the work to ride program. it provides disadvantaged students from philadelphia with the unique opportunity to play polo as a way of encouraging positive development. >> inner city kids get a chance to work with the horses. if they are doing good at school and have good grades, they get the chance to play polo. it becomes part of their lives. >> reporter: many call him the david beckham of polo. >> it comes from the fact that they have done a lot to promote soccer in america and many places in the world. i have been trying to do the same with polo. >> reporter: we can all agree he's one handsome man with a heart of gold.

>> do we have a picture of the bay? the fight this weekend on paper view. two men enter, one man leaves. >> oh my lord. >> heart of gold. i don't have anything to say. ttd# 1-800-345-2550

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learned today. my daughter turns 14. my youngest. >> happy birthday. >> but here's what i learned. in one of her final acts as a 13-year-old, she glot a massive steel ring stuck in her finger. they tried to cut it. they tried to numb her and cut it with a thicker saw. another doctor got involved. then got a drill out. couldn't get it off. had to numb her. got a little bloody. the doctor finally got it off. peter rizzo, lawrence hospital, thank you. fantastic hospital took care of her in a snap. two more days. we'll be back i'm sure. the process was lengthy. it was a big drama. >> the drill. that's always a bad thing. >> the drill, thank you. >> i learned quite