contributor ari melber of "the nation." dimos vice president heather mcgee. "new york daily news" columnist e.c. cupp, and josh of "bloomberg business week." "selling obama," a great cover. it's a show down in the buckeye state today. president obama and mitt romney are going head to head with economic speeches in ohio, just 250 miles from one another and scheduled five minutes apart. ohio may be the most hotly contested st contested state in this election. romney also held a fund-raiser in cincinnati last night and will return to the state for an event with speaker john boehner on sunday. today he has a campaign bus parked near the president's event. in their dueling speeches the candidates are expected to outline stark contrasts. that's after a week of simply calling the other guy as a guy who is out of touch. >> the president is so out of touch with the needs of the

american people. it's finally time to have a president who's in touch with what's happening in america. >> those of us who have spent time in the real world know that the problem is not the american people aren't productive enough. >> he's had a number of very revealing comments that show just how far out of touch he is. the president may be rewell meaning but he's out of touch. >> he's simply out of touch. we welcome a debate on who's out of touch. >> out of touch. now, here's what we know about the speech coming up. per the white house. the guidance that they've given nbc news. the speech that the president's making will be more perspective and prescriptive about where to take the economy than the case he's been making on the stump this far. ari, this, i won't call it a back-alley brawl. there won't be actually, like, any fist to fist contact. this, in many ways i think is a pivot point for the election insofar. it's the first time you're going to have the split screen of mitt romney laying out his prescription, the president with his. >> there is that strong contrast. this is also one of the first

times in the last month we've seen the romney campaign get ahold of a message and run with it. there were several weeks where it was about the governorship in massachusetts, catching osama bin laden and the bain record. however the debates played out they were picked by the obama campaign. now with this comment and sort of the economic focus, it is more romney's turf. the only other point i would add is that, you know, the obama campaign made a lot of hay out of the time when john mccain said the fundamentals of the economy are strong. this is one of those moments where you can read in benefit of the doubt if you want, but when you talk about jobs you can't spin unemployment and so anything that allows romney to say, hey, they don't get how bad it is for you, is the turf they want to be on. >> well, and heather, the intrepid in politico was making the point this speech in ohio is the makeup speech for the flubs, if you will, press conference where the president did say the private sector is strong. it's a delicate balance. it's actually a delicate ballet

for both of them insofar as the president has to gin up enthusiasm. at the same time there's a deep sense of -- a deep belief there's not that much he can do right now and it's unclear what we can get through policy wise in the second term. >> yeah. what the president was trying to do was not actually focus on -- which i think he's done a few times which is we're recovering, we were losing 750,000 jobs. now we've been gaining jobs every term. et cetera. he was trying to make a point about the public seconder, how the republican tea party governors and mitt romney would do more of the same and as president firing 1,000 public service workers every month since they've been in power. and that you simply can't say that your plan is is to lay off workers and say you're creating swrob jobs. i agree it was flubbed. he was trying to make a point about whether we care about government job or not. >> if the president has room for making up mitt romney's comments about teachers, firefighters and

policemen and us not needing any more of them. this is certainly a chance for him to respond on a grand stage to those comments. here's what mitt romney had to say about what the president may do this afternoon. let's take a listen. >> i happen to think the american people are tired of politicians who make excuses instead of taking responsibility. my own view is that he will speak eloquently, but the words are cheap. and that the record of an individual is the basis upon which you determine whether they should continue to hold on to their job. >> talk is cheap says mitt romney, s.e. are we really expecting mitt romney to put out any kind of policy here or in the next five months? >> i certainly would hope so but hope so from both ends. they both have to drop this out of touch business. honestly, by either virtue of wealth or stature, i can't think of any two people who are probably more out of touch with people in, you know, the country than these two gentlemen. drop that. obama's got to focus and i think

this is twhere he's going to go today, on the state of the middle class. for a guy who campaigned on restoring the middle class, he really hasn't addressed the idea that weak housing numbers have come out, 40% decline in the net worth of american families. rise in jobless claims. that's what people want to hear. what you're going to do the next four years to solve. instead of talking about how he got here and who's to blame. address those issues in a policy speech. >> but we do know that the president is going to do some amount of looking back to the past and specifically channel the legacy of george w. bush. all guidance points to some mention of the crisis george w. bush got us into as far as the white house and talking points. what's interesting to me is a gallup poll shows in terms of who should shoulder the blame for the economy, george w. bush is still polling at 68%, the president at 52%. so regardless of whether you think, you know, the punditry

thinks it's a good idea. the american public seems to lay a fair share of blame on bush's plate. >> that's right. unfortunately for obama the problem is nobody's blaming mitt romney for the problem. when the americans are going -- >> wouldn't that be great? >> when americans are going to the polls it's not going to say obama/george w. bush. obviously the sophisticated people understand that no presidency is finite. you know, it's not like everything starts over the day you become president. and so the challenge for obama is to deal with the counterfactual. is to say, as much as much as it is a total loser to say we're not greece -- people talk about the so-called experts about the election. when they say over the last two weeks things have turned, the romney campaign realized as much as anybody, saying he's out of touch is a policy statement for us. we really don't have to do very much because the president is running against the economy. >> you know, alex, on the number you raise, the 68%, i think there's two dimensions. one is, are you blaming the last

guy and people understand how budgets work? today's deficits are from decisions made over the last decade. many of them by the republican congress and the iraq war, medicare part "d" and other decisions. and bush tax cuts. over how to spend the government's money. that's one piece. that's backward looking. the other piece, though, is forward looking. it's what we're going to continue to be talking about in the campaigns as well which is what kind of regulation do you want on wall street? what kind of trading do you want banks to do or not do? was the deregulation led primarily by republicans who say smaller government everywhere, which means smaller government looking out for your money and your deposits in banks. is that a good idea going forward? and so i think you're going to hear, if i were to predict, the president also speak about that. the notion that these are policies that we have to look at for the future. >> well, i mean, we talk a lot about how mitt romney is and the president making missteps and so on and so forth. at the end of the day, this is a huge election. you can argue on either side,

but there is a fork in the road in terms of the prescription that each man is offering. we talk a lot about, given that, we talk a lot about, you know, sort of confidence in mitt romney and his shepherding, potential hshepherding of the american economy. i thought this was interesting. among independents regarding the economic plan of each candidate, 54% of independents view president obama's economic plan unfavorably. 38% support it. 47% view mitt romney's plan unfavorably, 35% support it. it's better looking for mitt romney but ultimately people are unsure. >> because i think they haven't figured out that there is this sort of much longer story than the story that's being told in the daily news cycle and unfortunately by both campaigns. there's a story of a 30-year trend of upward redistribution of wealth. obviously we had sort of a moment last fall with occupy wall street of talking about that, but if we're going to actually look at some of the numbers that came out of the fed, just this week, that showed a 40% drop in median income

anden increase -- i'm sorry, in median wealth, and an increase at the top. if we actually are talking about that 30 years of policies that changed our trade policies, our tax policies, shifted really all the burdens of what it takes to make a family middle class on to the individual, away from employers, away from government help, then we can actually look at their being very two stark choices here. one, more of the same and in fact an acceleration of the same with the romney/lion budget, cutting medicare and social security, cutting pell grant, all the things that are hallmarks of what it's going to take a make a middle class life. >> we will be talking more about the fed and also one of its favorite sons coming up. diamond is forever, but what does a jp morgan ceo's capitol hill testimony tell us about the future of financial reform? cnbc's incredible andrew ross sorkin joins the conversation next on "now." with the spark cash card from capital one,

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listen to what his testimony really said yesterday. we don't need the regulators. and, you know, the regulations are just too complicated. they're too hard. it's going to be up to us. and we're going to take care of this. and there is no role for rules. there's no role for any serious oversight by anybody else. and this is the fundamental divide. >> that was massachusetts senate candidate elizabeth warren on "morning joe" criticizing jpmorgan chase ceo jamie dimon's appearance before the senate banking committee. dimon apologized for his firm's multibillion dollar trading loss. that's the hardest thing he had to do. many of the senators took it

easy on the wall street leader. >> we can hardly sit in judgment of your losing $2 billion. we lose twice that every day here in washington. >> joining us now is cnbc "squawk box" co-host, "the new york times" columnist and author of a little book called "too big to fail." andrew ross sorkin. great to see you. >> thank you for having me. >> so let's begin with the analysis here. we talked about the freeze kid gloves was bantied about the newsroom. do you think -- i will say, from the beginning of this controversy, i've thought -- i've been impressed with the way jamie dimon's handled this. very upfront. we are to blame, we screwed up. mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa, et cetera. how would you rate his performance yesterday? >> oh, i give him credit for coming out and saying all the things he said. i would have liked to see more detail on what happened and i think we're going to get more of that. i think the bigger question is what you talked about, the kid

gloves issue. the part of me that says you don't want this to become a political grandstanding theater so i give the senators credit for not going in that direction. but there's part of me that says you didn't ask some of the tougher questions to really try to get at some policy issues. because to me ultimately this is not about did jp morgan screw up? this is a larger question about whether other banks can screw up, whether we have enough regulation and whether these institutions are too big to fail and therefore we get left holding the bag. this is what this is all about. if we get rid of too big to fail and we're not holding the bag, we should say we don't care what happens at these institutions. as long as we're potentially holding the bag, we have a right to ask questions and get real meaningful answers. that's where i think they missed. >> jamie dimon seemed to push back on the notion of better regulation, even in the wake of the volcker rule, he said it hasn't been written yet, et cetera, et cetera. there seems to be no -- if we talk about repercussions here, it is always staggering to me just not even five years after the worst financial meltdown since the great depression,

we're having a debate whether there should be regulation. >> i'm taking slight issue with that. people are reading this in different ways. i don't think jamie's response was we should have no regulation. you know, miss warren said he's saying no regulation. i think he's saying the regulation is too complicated, let's get regulation with with teeth that doesn't have 12,000 different pages to it. that, to me, seems sensible. having said that, he probably wants less regulation than i do. >> let's actually take a listen to what jamie dimon said specifically on the issue of regulation. >> i think you have to give regulators realistic objectives. i don't think realistically they can actually stop something like this from happening. it's purely manager's mistake. i don't know what the volcker rule is. it hasn't been written yet. it's very complicated. it may very well stopped parts of what this portfolio morphed into. there are thousands of rules and regulati regulations. we're giving informed advice on some of them. there's some we think don't make sense and we think we're entitled to tell you the things that don't make sense. >> it's the season of delicate

ballet, is it not? >> there's a moment that reminded me of the great character, unfrozen caveman warrior. the volcker rule, it's very -- i'm just a simple unfrozen bank boss. obviously i think the point is that, yes, he'd want less regulation. it's really, really clear. to andrew's point, the reason to get him there, if you're not going to do the grandstanding and thankfully they didn't, is to ask the question of you have a couple hundred regulators in your office at all times yet none were with the cio on this instance. what happened? there was an opportunity for forensic analysis so we could learn more. swrr jp morgan is 50% bigger than at the time of too big to fail. we don't know yet in this instance what happened. we had a great opportunity. it was a missed opportunity yesterday. >> of course, for folks that are watching this at home, there is the question, the "washington post" and "the new york times" bring it up, look, wall street has deep pockets. and these guys are all elected officials.

they are -- it behooved them not to totally alienate the guys in charge. >> the senate financial committee in particular is supported in ways that i think would all frustrate just about anybody who really understands how much money is going into their pockets. i was not surprised the questions were not harsher. having said that, i think what josh was saying, getting at the policy issue and getting at the real answer, was this a speculative bet or was this truly a hedge, should you be able to hedge these things at all? the idea he did not know whether the volcker rule would have impacted this, you know, i find this disingenuous. >> the other part that is very curious, this law passed in 2010. this rule is to be promulgated and go into effect next month in july. about two years later. >> it's a very important debate. >> and what has been happening in that two years is a boring but super vital process where the banks send all of their letters and paper and regulatory lobbying to the government to make these regulatory rules.

so it is very curious to say on the one hand i don't know what's in it, there's this process, i'm confused. while on the other hand there has been reams of paper in lo y lobbying to muddy this. >> the regulators have made it more complicated. >> exactly. that's what i want to ask you because you're closer to this than many people. when he says -- >> he's written it down and everything. >> when he says it's possible, i just don't know. right? isn't it his job to know by july, by next month? >> right. to me it should have been his job to know by the time that he was sitting in that chair. >> exactly. >> the idea on day one when they first announced thirks as, came with the idea they're going to reveal all july 13th, their second quarter. they should know, was this -- here's the one thing. he said repeatedly he didn't think this was nefarious. more importantly, he didn't believe the people making the trades intended for them to be speculative bets that they thought they were hedging. the question is, is that an acceptable answer? if that is truly the answer. >> is that acceptable behavior?

shouldn't you have to know? the other thing i will mention, because this should go -- someone needs to bring everyone's attention to the fact that jim demint introduced an amendment in the farm bill. in an agricultural bill to repeal dodd/frank. i mean, we are talking about a republican congress that is so intent on picking apart and getting rid of don -- don? don frank, whoever he is. as well as dodd frank. anyway, it is american drama. andrew ross sorkin. thank you've for giviing us the latest. we hope to lure you back here. >> i love it here. thank you, alex. appreciate it. after the break, 41 reasons to stick around. the new documentary explores the life, career, and legacy of former president george h.w. bush. we'll preview it, next. do you see it ?

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very proud father. first time it's happened i guess in the history of our country or except for the adams. it was, you know, it was mind-boggling. it was enormous. and a source of great pride for the family. >> that was a scene from the new documentary "41" on the life of george h.w. bush preparing tonight on hbo. president bush turned 88 years old this week. "41" director jeffrey roth joins us now. congratulations on the documentary. >> thank you. >> we've been talking a lot about presidential legacies because the republicans are intent on channeling the mojo of ronald reagan. democrats still have bill clinton in their corner sometimes. >> sometimes. >> sometimes it seems like he might not in their corner. bush 41 as you point out in your

documentary is not someone who has done a particularly -- he's not tried to sell his legacy. he's a very kind of quiet guy. when it comes down to it, he made significant steps as president. when you contrast his time in office versus his sons. in terms of economics, he turns a surplus -- i'm sorry, george w. bush turned a surplus into debt, he made major tax cuts where his father raised taxes and got rid of pay go which of course forced spending cuts to be offset. a legacy of his father's. a really interesting dynamic between fathers and sons. >> they're quite different but also they come from the same place. unfortunately, history is going to view them differently, but they both believe that they're serving the country as opposed to serving themselves. >> in terms of the burnishing of one's own legacy, s.e., do you think that we are coming upon a time when we will look more favorably upon h.w.'s legacy as an american people?

>> yeah, i think you're starting to see that now. when you consider how he left, sort of plagued by having disappointed his own party and it was, you know, not winning a second term, obviously. i think since then his legacy has softened a bit and we look back on him a little more favorably, certainly than we did right when he left. and even through, you know, the clinton years and w. years. i think he's gained a little prominence and perhaps that's because he didn't come out and try to resell himself. and he sort of took a step back and just let time do the work of restoring his legacy for him. >> truman had the same effect when he got out of office. he was pretty desolate. >> right. >> you look at him in a completely different light. >> what do you think is going to happen with w.? >> another story. >> i think as the same thing with his father, time is going to have to pass and history will decide. >> you know, what's interesting in terms of his own record, i

wonder, you spent a fair amount of time with the than. is there one significantly issue that was more touted or acknowledged terms of contributing to the country, whether it was fiscal matters, bipartisanship, you know, budget deals? was there one thing that stuck out as far as, like, the thing he is most proud of? >> i think he doesn't have that perspective because he doesn't like to say that kind of thing. but where he goes is he wanted to do more if he had a second term. and so that's what bothers him more. he wanted to do more for the middle east, for the economy. and for china. so that's where his focus was. not look at me, what i had done. it's he wanted to see, continue in the future. >> how much of a sense of devastation is still palpable when he talks about not getting reelected? >> you can still see it on his sleeve, ross perot, the way that went down. in the movie that's the rawest

emotion you'll see from him. a very short sentence. says everything. he says, i can't talk about him, he cost me the election and i have nothing else to say. >> i know maine figures prominently in this story and in his life. i'm wondering, did you get the sense that mainerds -- >> i didn't know you referred to them as maineards. >> i don't know if i can quote that. that's where his soul is. the idea of the film is to be an intimate portrait. we have the president of the united states to tell a story in his own words. but a life story. because of that, maine is where he goes back to. >> yeah. >> he's the boat, the sea, the family, everybody goes back there to join each other again. and for as big a family as they are, they all get back together which is pretty fascinating. >> all roads lead to kennebunkport. jeffrey roth, thank you for

joining us. "41" appears on hbo tonight. coming up, it's complicated doesn't begin to describe our relationship with pakistan. the madness and mayhem in karachi. we'll take a look next on "now." we're at the legendary southfork ranch in dallas for a cookout with world champion grill master brett gallaway. he's serving his guests walmart choice premium steak. but they don't know it yet. they will. it's a steakover! the steak is excellent. very tender... melts in your mouth... so delicious... tonight you're eating walmart steak.

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american, wri worry about t extremists. indian worried about the nukes or afghan worried about pakistan's ambitions. pakistan is a powder keg. karachi is the detonator that could set it off. >> that's a five part documentary series. the target killer the bad lieutenant, the zealot and the karachi 50. exploring what pakistan's most dangerous city means to the u.s. he joins the panel now. he's a journalist and co-founder of the great vice media empire. it is awesome to have you here. >> good to be here, alex.

>> so the serious is great. it is, i mean, as far as travel. you went to some very dangerous places. i was telling you during the break what i thought, corruption, extortion, crazy were repeated words on my note pad. tell us about karachi in terms of, you know, u.s./pakistan relations. it's an important city in pakistan. it's sort of the center, the cultural center of the country. and yet so much of it appears to be riddled with dysfunction. >> i mean, karachi is, i would say, one of the most fascinating cities i've ever been to. it's, you know, pushing 18 million people, fastest growing city in the world. fastest growing in pakistan. as you said, it's the economic engine of the country. the fashion industry's there. there's tech startups. you know, a lot of wealthy people as well. at the same time, you have this kind of almost like mad max

beyond thunder dome environment happening and it's all in one place. i've never seen anything like it. and with, you know, you talk about the u.s. kind of impact of, let's say the drone strikes or foreign policy on pakistan. it's pushed the taliban into karachi and karachi's always had a history of gangs and gang violence and there's a new gang in town now in the gulf and that complicates further. >> what seems to be, even the notion somehow the pakistan government is going to be cracking down on the taliban seems to be totally undermined by the footage you show which is sort of, like, if there is crackdowns it's clearly for media benefit. you draw the line to the bin laden raid that it makes sense the u.s. operated under a thick veil of secrecy because the pakistan government would have exploited it or made a media circus out of it. that said, they're a strategic ally of ours. when push comes to shove, we have to work with them and in some cases -- >> definitely not working for

them. >> not working for them. tell us a little bit about that relationship and specifically the drone strikes. we know that has not won us any favors inside of pakistan. >> okay, so the relationship is dysfunctional. it's, i would say, relations have never been worse between pakistan and america than they are right now. that said, in the last ten years, since post-9/11, pakistan i think has sacrificed greatly as a country fighting this proxy war on america's behalf. america is like, we gave pakistan $20 billion. $15 billion of that went to the pakistani army to fight on the border. the other $5 billion went against, you know, like a budget supplement and the corruption machine that is pakistan. and the net effect is that, you know, $35,000 pakistani soldiers died during the fight, and, like, but it's created a nationwide insurgency and radicalized the whole country because just, well, it's pissing

people off. innocent people are getting killed. the militants are spreading around the country. and it's really terrifying to think, what happens in two years? i was thinking about something, former prime minister benazir butto said, that we created a frankenstein in the region. look at 2014, what's going to happen. i see a two headed monster. what is america going to do? flip the switch and walk out? what are they going to leave behind in their wake? that's what's really scary. >> the u.s. sort of relations in the middle east, we have some numbers on that. in terms of favorable attitude toward the u.s. and muslim countries. in 2009, 25% of folks in muslim countries had favorable attitudes toward the u.s. which i would say is not a particularly high number. by 2012 that number dropped to 15%. in terms of favorable attitudes toward the u.s. and pakistan, in 2009, 16% of pakistanis had a

favorable attitude toward the u.s. by 2012, that dropped to 12%. i mean, this is -- it is not a good time. and yet we are incredibly involved. the blood, the treasure, the money. you know, the question is, what is an american president to do? suroosh, can you answer? >> i have the answer. >> drone strikes are not going away. we still need shipping routes, you know, trucking routes through pakistan to get to afghanistan. you know, hamerica's image? >> i would say, look, pakistan's sovereignty with these drone strikes or going in to get bin laden was technically a violation of the sovereignty. it's a huge deal over there. you know, take aside the fact that, like, what the hell is bin laden doing there for five years? >> right. >> from the pakistani perspective, it's like we're just -- >> there's no sense that was by

any means necessary moment for the u.s. and we had to go in and they don't understand -- >> they -- no. some people do, but you have to understand that there's been a media explosion in that country. there are networks everywhere. i wouldn't say there's like necessarily a high level of media literacy in that a lot of misinformation is getting spent around the country and creates this environment of hysteria post the bin laden thing in pakistan, this massive level of denial in the country. i went there right after. and it was just crazy what i was seeing. everybody is like, there's no way. >> they don't believe that -- >> a lot of people -- i think now finally the dust has settled a bit and they're like this is really embarrassing this is really bad luck for us. so i think there's a -- it's -- what should america do with pakistan? you know, it's, as you said, it's incredibly complicated. i think the whole relationship needs to be reassessed and the

amount of kind of funding we're giving to pakistan. what our expectations are in return. and let's look at the drone strikes really. we keep doing it. i say we. america keeps droning. but it's -- is anybody looking at this, what the net effect of that is? when i say radicalizing the region, i've been going there for seven years filming in pakistan. every time i go, it gets worse. it's creepy as hell. there are suicide bombings happening every day. now it's gone into cities where that kind of thing never existed before. >> are you going to do the vice guide to aba guide? >> i went there and it's a weird place. >> a weird place to say the least. >> that's it. >> you didn't get to ask a question. >> we'll do it telepathically. >> that's the way we do it after we go to break. sharoosh alvi thanks for joining

us. it's online. go watch it. it's awesome. after the break legislation focuses on crime solving technology and gets swept up in the debate over gun rights. we'll debate that next on "now." ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

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see the seam? more processed flakes look nothing like natural grains. you can't argue with nutrition you can see. great grains. search great grains and see for yourself. for multi grain flakes that are an excellent source of fiber try great grains banana nut crunch and cranberry almond crunch. next week, the new york state assembly is expected to vote on a bill to require what is called microstamping. the technology codes shell casings making it easier to track guns used in crimes. but the nra is waging a campaign to stop the bill in new york and potentially in other states across the country. joining the panel now is dan gross, president of the brady campaign to prevent gun violence. it's great to see you, dan. let's talk about this legislation. because it seems like a fairly good idea and yet there has been a huge amount of resistance to

this. one gun company remington i believe threatened to pull its operations out of the state if new york does pass this bill. you know, we've, that on the heels of statistics suggesting that 40% of murder investigations nationwide result in no arrests because of lack of evidence. this is a real problem in terms of crime in the country. >> yeah, i mean, it's a simple case of right versus wrong. i mean, this is an opportunity to save lives that has nothing to do with gun rights. the opportunity for a law-abiding citizen to own a gun, to hunt, to use it for lawful purposes is just about catching the bad guys. so, you know, i put the question back to the gun lobby or anybody who wants to represent them to say, you know, how could this possibly be bad? it's just about catching the bad guys. >> and yet, s.e., you are a gun owner and seem to have some problems with this. >> this is a really silly piece of legislation. here's why. because the idea is you track the bullet or the shell casing back to the gun then you track the gun back to the owner because ostensibly the owner has

registered his gun. most criminals don't do that. most criminals don't go and give an address and a form of i.d. and say, i'd like to legally register my firearm. most crimes that are committed with guns are committed by people who have not registered their guns. and most gun owners who legally register use that gun legally. so this is really a very silly, and let's not forget, costly legislation to gun -- >> just a quick rebuttal on that. there's a lot there. just on the discreet point you're making about whether this is use l to law enforcement, there are a lot of cases where people get accused of crimes. gun owners get accused of crimes because they have a gun. if you can go if and say, i did register mine, that doesn't have my bullet stamp on it, that couldn't have been me, that's a huge help to solving crimes. in small communities where you have a bunch of people registered and a few unregistered it helps narrow the pool. the idea that people who care about solving crimes wouldn't want more information about the

gun and the bullet even out of the pool of registered law-abiding citizens is crazy. >> ari, we don't live in a guilty until proven innocent community. we live in an innocent until proven guilty community. and it is not up to a legal law-abiding gun owner to prove his innocence in the case. >> the gun lobby says they're all about catching the bad guys, prosecuting the bad guys. how could this be a bad thing if it helps us catch the bad guys? >> it's very expensive. >> wait, all right, just ask gun manufacturers. that's another point you had embedded in what you said in the beginning. there is a cap in this legislation you called silly on $12 per gun. >> right. >> that's very expensive. at what cost is the save human lives? at what cost is catching the bad guys, the people who are murdering other people? >> like most gun control, like most gun laws, it only punishes law-abiding citizens. >> this isn't gun control. this has nothing to do with the opportunity to buy guns in our country. >> gun control, nobody gets heated or passionate about it. >> this isn't gun control.

this is about catching the bad guys. that's an important point. >> that's the interesting thing, heather, is that every -- i mean, s.e., i'd love to get your thoughts on this, too. any effort to in any way touch the issue of weaponry, guns in this country, is always met with extreme resistance from the nra. this is, you know, you have folks that are gun, you know, gun advocates, effectively saying this amounts to a gun ban. i mean, this is something that doesn't even touch -- not rifles, not revolvers. this is semiautomatic weaponry. >> after the fact. after the guns have already been purchased. after they're already out there. this does not prevent anybody from buying or selling a gun. period. so how can you call it gun control? >> this is the problem with the professionalization of lobbying and oadvocacy in this country. there are thousands of people whose only jobs is to make hysteria about guns. they don't get paid unless there's something for them to go to washington and statehouses and go and yell and state

legislatures and congress people about. they don't get paid. every single idea of anything that touches guns is going to be a reason for them to, you know, ask somebody to write a check. >> i'm not a professional lobbyist. i don't get paid to raise hysteria. i'm a gun owner and care about the issues. this is part of the small creep into our rights as gun owners. it's bigger than that. it is bigger than that. >> you're representing the point of view of the gun industry. it's the gun industry. look at what's going on. this is an industry at all costs wants to protect its profits and does it at the costs of human lives. >> it wants to protect the second amendment which is under assault. >> under assault? >> absolutely. >> that's like extremist rhetoric. that's extremist rhetoric. >> it's the truth. ask a gun owner. >> what is under assault? how is this an assault on the second amendment saying we want to put microstamping on a bullet casing that will help us catch criminals after they've committed -- >> most gun owners that are legal gun owners use their guns legally and do not want to have to be tracked as if they are criminals. >> that's anti-government

paranoia, anti-law enforcement -- >> it's happening. it would be paranoia if it's not happening. it's happening. >> it's paranoia. >> okay. okay. s.e., i got to ask you, i mean, if you are a reasonable gun owner, that is sitting in the middle o tf the country watchin this, is it not a little bit suspect, i mean, that -- and to the question of anything dealing with firearms. regardless of how insignificant it is. there is a pushback and that there is this -- >> a defensive -- >> this incredible defense -- the defense mechanism is on a -- >> you're right. >> for people who want to be reasonable about the second amendment and reasonable of gun rights it seems there is absolutely no room to debate, to make incremental changes to the law to create, to strengthen -- >> i'm not going to argue with you. i think this issue has become inkreei incredibly heated. there's a lot of reasons why. both sides add to that hair

trigger sort of gut reaction to these issues. >> i don't accept that. >> well, that's okay. both sides contribute to this. because after a big shooting like gabby giffords or trayvon martin there's huge hysteria and paranoia about guns and we have to ban begans. gun owners react -- >> nobody says we have to ban guns. show me one word that's come out of my mouth or the mouth of the brady campaign -- >> i don't follow everything you say. >> there's nobody that's anti-gun. we're anti- -- >> nobody is anti-gun? >> no, we're anti-killing people. things that prevent -- >> people kill people. guns don't. >> it's usually people with guns. >> right. >> s.e., friends. i will tell you this much. after trayvon martin and after gabby giffords, nothing's been done on gun control, my friend. >> you're right. >> nothing. >> big goose egg. thanks to dan gross, president of the brady campaign, sir, we will be talking about these issues. we'll probably never have a resolution on them. >> we'll try. >> we'll continue inviting you back to this show.

coming up, drinks are on me. i wish they were. that was music to the words of a group of former newspaper staffers silver lining on the "time's" picayune story. that's next on "now." running. then get some blades spinning, paper sanding, and bits turning. let's motor to the only place that carries our favorite tools... for our favorite people... armed with a budget and a mission... and see what happens when we put those tools to work for us. more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot. get this ryobi 18-volt drill kit for the new lower price of just $69.

welcome back. time for what now. we want to update you on the sad story we brought you yesterday about the 201 employees from the "time's" picayune laid off this week after the new orleans paper decided to go digital four days a week. the word around the twitter verse and the blogosphere, specifically michael scherer's treat that i read, is a "chicago tribune" journalist picked up the tab tat a bar where the lai off workers were drinking. a thin silver lining. we're certainly not trying to undermine the gravity of the situation. it is nice to know someone feels the pain and wants to help them numb it. >> absolutely. the loss of journalism jobs in the past few years has been incredible. we're losing a really important

fabric and a check on corporate power, on government power, i mean, it's really -- we're going to look back on this period of time as one that really changed the american democracy, the way we haven't quite reckoned with. >> we don't have time to talk in detail about the pacquiao/bradley fight. senators john mccain and harry reid are maybe working together, josh, to get bad stuff out of boxing. >> we can all agree pacquiao got jobbed. it's an issue that unites us all. boxing has a minor corruption problem. these guys are right. they should -- you know, it should be at the highest levels of government. this is a big business and it's outrageous. >> manny pacquiao was robbed. we'll have to leave it there. thanks again to ari, heather, s.e. and josh. that's all for now. see you back here, when i was joined by governor ed rendell, joel stein, meghan mccain and michael ian black. boom. until then, follow us on twitter @nowwithalex.

"andrea mitchell reports" is next live from philadelphia. good afternoon, and rreaandrea. >> hi, there, good afternoon to you, alex. thanks so much. coming up next on our hour, dueling speeches. also my conversation with treasury secretary tim geithner on topics from the euro zone to revisiting simpson/bowles. the church and social justice. american nuns take on the pope. sister simone campbell next on "andrea mitchell reports." o chee before it gets too late ♪ ♪ and you end up strapped for cash ♪ ♪ patching your board with duct tape ♪ ♪ so hit free-credit-score-dot-com ♪ ♪ find out what credit's about ♪ ♪ or else you could be headed for a credit wipeout ♪ offer applies with enrollment in freecreditscore.com™.

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