they are holding them accountable for those actions. >> michigan state representative barb byrum, thank you for your time. appreciate it so much. >> i appreciate it so much. that's "the ed show." great to be back with you. rachel maddow also back. i hope you're feeling better, but i want you to know i got fresh air and i caught a fish this big. won't even fit in the screen, so i can't show it. >> that fish has now set up a legal defense fund and has called me to be leading the campaign on his behalf. you'll be hearing from our lawyers. >> i hope you're feeling better? >> i am. thank you very much. thank you for joining us this hour. it is great to be back. the reason i was out all of last year is because i had laryngitis which i always thought people were faking until i got it myself. you'll hear that my voice is a little off, but it's back, and i feel much better and big thanks to everyone here who picked up the slack, and ezra klein who sat in for me for a full week.

i'm glad to be back, and there's tons going on in the news. as usual in american political news, the most interesting thing that's going on in politics right now is not actually the stuff happening at the federal level but what is happening at the state level. this weekend for example, did you know that the republican party convention happened in the great state of montana? it was kind of a doozy. it. >> was held in missue la at the hilton garden inn. and parked out in front of the hilton garden inn for the state republican party convention was this. it's an outhouse that features fake graffiti that says for a good time, call 1-800-michelle. and that's crossed out and it says for a good time, call hillary, and that's crossed out and is says for a good time, call pelosi, and that's circled in red. the outhouse is riddled in painted on bullet holes as though someone has shot it up. it also has a fake birth certificate in it for the

president, it says barack hussein obama, and it has stamped bull pucky. only the second word after bull is not pucky. as you can see, the sign they put on the outside of this bullet hole ridden outhouse, which again was outside of the state republican party convention, the sign on it is obama presidential library. the mitt romney for president campaign paid the expenses for the keynote speaker at the convention that weekend. they flew newt gingrich out to missoula. montana, to go to the convention with the outhouse out there. they paid for him to provide the culminating speech to the weekend's events. there's no word that he commented on the, for a good time, call michelle outhouse decoration, but it's interesting he was there on the mitt romney campaign dime. he did a fund-raiser for mr. romney when he was there, and

spoke as a mitt romney surrogate and his trip was paid for by campaign donations. it was an official appearance. now that the republican party has their nominee for president, mr. romney's candidacy, i think, has been inbued with retroactive inevitability. it seems like, of course he's the nominee. look at who was in the field against him. that's the main stream and beltway and the liberal and democratic take on what happened in the process this year, but it's interesting to note that's not the way the republicans see it. if republicans saw it the same way they could keep mitt romney's distance from those other guys who he beat in the primary, that group of clowns, right? the romney campaign has not been doing that. they have been treating former rivals not as embarrassments, clowns or side show candidate, they have been treating them as assets to his campaign. even the really ridiculous ones, short-lived candidates like

donald trump are not treated as a joke by the romney campaign. donald trump is seen as a high-profile official surrogate for mitt romney. tim pawlenty represents him as a full time job. he was on "this week" giving the romney line or his closest approximatation of it. newt gingrich is dispatched on the romney dime to a state republican convention, specifically this weekend to the one with the outhouse, bullet hole laden. call the first lady for a good time outhouse. he's wrapping up support from his rivals and using them in hi campaign. he's bringing the primary campaign with him. the except, of course, is ron paul. technically the ron paul folks are on board with romney in the sense that dr. paul's son, the senator from kentucky endorsed mr. romney. but with everything between ron paul and the rest of the republican party it is a little awkward.

this weekend, ron paul won iowa. it's official. there will be 25 delegates and super delegates sent to the national republican convention from the great state of iowa this year and even though you heard mitt romney won on election night and that actually no rick snowstorm won in iowa really ron paul won. of the 25 delegates, 21 of them are ron paul delegates. leaving the ron paul campaign to put out this press release. ron paul wins iowa and it's true. he did. bottom t line. also hosting a ron paul revolution rally in tampa at the site of the republican convention this summer the day before it opens. which is a rather in your face move for a guy who is not getting the nomination. >> we should not be disruptive, but we should also not be pushed around. >> ron paul's message to supporters this weekend, announcing their plans for the counter convention in tampa this weekend.

this weekend, frankly, with him winning a majority of delegates and winning maine, minnesota, iowa and nevada, you have to ask what is ron paul going to do with those delegates he is sending to the convention? especially after holds a counterconvention the day before the real convention starts. nobody knows what he will do with the delegates yet. it may have to do with a party platform fight. but since no one knows what is in a party platform any way it seems like a waste of breath. whatever they are there for it is interesting. it is interesting dynamic in the republican party that mitt romney is using other republican primary contenders, who he beat this year against ron paul. using them to neutralize the ron paul factor. rick snowstoantorum wants

conservatives will rick santorum promised last weekend that he wants to make sure strong principled conservatives like presumary him will stand ready to counterbalance the effect of the ron paul folks. if they make a crazy break for the republican party platform which nobody notices anyway, rick santorum is telling republicans he stands ready to counterbalance them. he will fight them on mitt romney's behalf. mitt romney has consolidated the support of his primary rivals. even once they have picked their nominee, even once mitt romney has consolidated the support, the republican party trying to figure out who it is and who is in charge and who gets a say remains the greatest show on earth, at least the greatest show on politics. in terms of this dynamic on the right, rick santorum is turning out to be more than a weapon for mitt romney to use against ron paul and the libertarians. mr. romney and mr. santorum essentially tag teamed at the faith and freedom conference. mr. romney appeared by video link, approvingly quoting rick santorum in his remarks. then rick santorum appeared

right after him approvingly quoting mitt romney back to him. herman cain was also there at the same event speaking. even rick santorum's billionaire foster freehs was there wearing a very nice shirt. remember him? >> this contraceptive thing. it is so inexpensive. back many my day that's used bayer aspirin for contraceptive. the gals put it between their knees and it wasn't that costly. >> excuse me, i'm trying to catch my breath from that. >> mitt romney spoke alongside not just rick santorum but alongside that guy, along rick santorum's ml billionaire, the putting aspirin between your knees guy. the specific part of faith and freedom part of it was hosted by raffle reid. he put on the weekend event. it is his organization.

remember ralph reid, he is the disgraced guy who got christians to write letters in support of keeping the made in the usa label made in the maryann that islands and manufactured in near slave labor sweat shop conditions like forced prostitution and forced abortions among the destitute work withers there. he lobbied for a made in the usa label on clothes made in those togethers. he did it with tim phillips who runs americans for prosperity, on behalf of a jack abramoff client. how did they get christians, conservative christians, supposed values voters to write letters supporting sweat shops with they said the workers were exposed to the teachings of jesus while working there, presumably in between the forced abortions. that was the jack abramoff and

ralph reid scam. mitt romney appeared with the aspirin between your knees guy, the man on dog contraception guy, the disgraced fake christian scandal guy. mitt romney appeared alongside the sexual harassment claims candidate and the 9-9-9 guy and this guy as well, remember the guy with the pimp suit and this guy, governor force vaginal probe. and this guy who wept from the stage this weekend. remember this guy? he has a pay per view tv show on the internet. he used his speech at the mitt romney event this weekend to talk about how the television program "t glee" is destroying america and how he is going to create a ring-wing version of america to save america by destroying liberals. >> we've given enough.

we've given enough. we're going to lose. a year ago i was watching the show "glee" with my wife and we watched it like this. it's horrifying some of the things they are teaching high schoolers, but it is brilliantly done. it is brilliantly done. it's produced brilliantly. it is music, acting brilliant, cinematography brilliant and i said to her a year and a half ago, we lose. there's no way to beat that. well, yes, there is. with we have spent a year now trying to put together a push back with artists, with music but not that stereo typical conservative lee greenwood music. i call it my ed pus project because project because the left will be making out with me and they will never see it come canning and they will say don't you know who produced that music, yes, i like it. it is great. yes, yes it is.

>> yes, i'm secretly your parent and you are making out with me. you know, a democratic president does not have to do this kind of stuff on the left. i know the beltway comment is always there is an equivalent and parallel and exactly equal counterbalance on every partisan side of every right issue, right? it's not true. there's no equivalent to this on the left that a democrat president has to decide what to do about. yes, there are people on the left and weird and creepy, maybe not the same way, but on the left there are people who say things that are politically incorrect or otherwise have a high grossout factor, right? but they are not people to central to democratic politics that a democratic candidate or presidential candidate has to make a decision whether or not to associate themselves with them. a candidate has to share a stage with and appear at their events

and cobill himself with those people while running for president. it doesn't happen on the democratic side the way it happens on the republicans. right? imagine a world in which democrats use this dynamic to their advantage. in which they actually made a republican presidential candidate who stood alongside this stuff and lent his name to this kind of thing, imagine if they made him answer for it. >> we have given enough. we've given enough. we are going to lose. a year ago, i was watch the the show "glee" with my wife and we watched it like this. >> imagine that in an attack ad. it's not that hard to imagine, right? that's what mitt romney did this weekend. we watched "glee" and that's what mitt romney did this weekend as he was hosted by the forced abortion dog the man on dog guy, the can u beck, beck, beck is is stan guy and what did

he give a speech on evils of contraception and he multitasked. while he was doing that his campaign was paying for a campaign sfeech at a for a good time call the first lady outhouse event. that's what mitt romney did as the republican party's nominee for president. with him dragging this stuff behind him as he runs for president, why aren't the democrats making sure the cans tied to his bumper make some noise? why aren't they making him answer for that? if the democrats held them kth accountable for the right wing of his own party which he courts in every way, would the beltway explode from the democrats being so audacious as to press what really ought to be their obvious advantage here? joining us is frankch latest ar "nuke'em. why negative ads are essential

and sometimes even artistic. good to be with you. >> democrats are amused by the way republicans can not disavow even the craziest stuff on the right wing of republican politics. do they actually ever use it against them. >> you wish. in the piece i go back to the goldwater campaign. with johnson, they used it against goldwater. they used the crazy fellow traveling with right wingers. what happens with the democrats is obama makes a rather gentle add attacking, not as vicious as newt gingrich's ad attacking bane and you have them say itting it is frightening the horses. he should -- i feel the democrats if they want to win have to go after this radical party for which romney is essentially a front man. he's the perfect sort of faux

moderate mask. a ring-wing version of glee. does that mean that john ashkroft comes back and resumes his singing career with orrin hatch? i don't know you characterized the people better than i could. donald trump is a statesman next to ralph reid who is a statesman next to herman cain. but they should go after it. because romney is a placid front for the party that is a radical right-wing party. >> in terms of the democratic criticism of it, your whole take on this, your whole piece is about how everybody says they don't like negative ads but a, they work and b, there's nothing shameful them provided they are factual and they are done for the right reason, which is essentially to win because you ought to win over somebody that has hard truths that should be told about them. but one thing you say every president should go negative early and often if the goal is

victory. the notion that negative marketing is bogus. everybody believes that we never used to do this. >> it is crazy. one campaign i talk about is the andrew jackson, john quincy adams campaign where jackson was accused of cannibalism. his wife was described as a bigamist. his mother a prostitute and those were the nice things that were said. that was in the earlyish part of the 19th century. people are saying obama is going negative to early. both george w. bush and bill clinton in their re-election campaigns, their second campaigns began earlier than obama did. they began in march and april. obama didn't begin until may. and so, this kind of squeamishness, is it amnesia? is it -- i don't get it. >> i would understand why the beltway, which i think sort of

leans conservative. that's my take on it. but the beltway leans conservative and the republican establishment would say don't you dare go negative. i don't understand why democrats would say that. i think corey booker is a friend of mine and i believe he li legit t mately and passionately wants obama to win and i think ed rendell feels the same way and why is there a democratic instinct to say no, don't do what might work if it is unseemly? >> i think some of it, in this case, is tied up with what is thought of the obama brand. i hate that word, hope and change and the feeling is, boy, that really worked and we don't want to martha. it is so pure and so lovely and idealistic, all of the things that a lot of people, including me liked. but you can't fight the last war. >> that last war had a lot of negativity about john mccain it in. >> it did.

remember mccain couldn't remember how many homes he owned. >> and the ad was called seven is the answer to the question. >> they were negative then but it is like people foreget. but the thing is, that was then. this is a tough election for obama. this is not a nostalgia tour for 2008. he is fighting a bunch of extremely wealthy people with, many whose names we don't know. we know some of them. we know foster frees but not all of them who will write unlimited checks and he has to nuke them. >> the fact that everybody looks back on 2008 and doesn't remember the negativity tells you what you need to know about people who say don't go negative people will hold it against you. once you win no one remembers what happened. >> we remember the dukakis and bush race. dukakis ran more negative ads

than bush did and no one remembers that too. >> "new york magazine" piece is called nuke' em in his sit isle style. we'll be right back. ays, or treat gas with these after you get it. now that's like sunblock before or sun burn cream later. oh, somebody out there's saying, now i get it! take beano before and there'll be no gas. but they haven't experienced extra strength bayer advanced aspirin. in fact, in a recent survey, 92% of people who tried it said they would buy it again. visit fastreliefchallenge.com today for a special trial offer. visit fastreliefchallenge.com avoid bad.fats. don't go over 2000... 1200 calories a day. carbs are bad. carbs are good. the story keeps changing. so i'm not listening... to anyone but myself. i know better nutrition when i see it: great grains. great grains cereal starts whole and stays whole. see the seam? more processed flakes look nothing like natural grains. you can't argue with nutrition you can see.

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which i mean abortion. the third bill that republicans introduced upon gaining control of the house was an anti-abortion bill. it is h.r. 3. they do them in numerical order. the line in the sand over which republicans threatened to shut down the government was the plan to defund planned parenthood. in their second year in majority in the house they are working on legislationen all the time and fighting to restrict abortion rights in washington, d.c. since congress has some control over the district's affairs. that has led d.c. residents to stop by one congressman's office with a long list of more pressing issues that he might take on if he cares about d.c. like potholes and vermin infestation and parking tickets and so on. the abortion above all else climate has led to a race in which not only did all of the leading candidates they would

overturn roe v. wade to make having an abortion a criminal act, beyond that all of the leading candidates a then republican side this year said they supported personhood for fertleized eggs. it is to outlaw the most common forms of contraception in the united states and outlawing abortions. that was at the federal level. at the state level it has been an anti-abortion free for all since the 2010 elections with more anti-abortion being introduced and passed than anytime since it became a legal stoo legal constitutionally protected right to get an abortion in this country in the early '70s. after that laser-like focus on jobs, jobs, jobs by which i mean abortion, it seems like now maybe, in this current news cycle, maybe, the pendulum is swinging in the other direction, or at least people who are on the other side of the issue for republicans are starting to make

noise about how far republicans have swung the pendulum since the 2010 elections. today in michigan, for example, republicans got a performance that they did not ask for, but they definitely did earn. you may have heard, particularly on the this show last week, state republicans banned two democratic lawmakers, both women from speaking on the floor of the michigan house. it was the first time in anyone's memory that lawmakers had been censored like that. it began during a debate on an omni bus anti-abortion bill that expands the right to regulate abortion clinics out of existence. not accidentally, intentionally. intention regulations designed to shut down abortion providers. it passed in michigan mostly along party lines. during debate on the bill, female democratic legislators argued against it vigorously and one legislator used a word that got her sent to the penalty box by the republicans in charge. >> i have not asked you to adopt

and adhere to my religious believes. why are you asking me to adopt yours? finally plrks speaker, i'm flattered that you are all so interested in my vagina, but no means no. >> for that comment and a few others from democrats that day the republican majority floor leader in michigan banned lisa brown and another woman democratic legislator from speaking. that was last week. fast forward to today an this was the rather incredible scene outside of the michigan capital. play right and activist there to perform her famous work "the vagina monologues." she and nine other legislators starred in the play. they used the word that must be named more than 100 times. so that is michigan. in virginia last week, home of governor ultrasound the state's board of health did something shocking. the state board of health in

virginia decided not to make it more difficult for abortion providers to operate in virginia. virginia republicans wanted to do the same thing they are doing if michigan. they wanted to pass regulations specifically targeting abortion providers to put them out of business but the state board of health unexpectly voted to block the republican's move. they voted to exempt existing abortion providers from the new rules that seemed specifically drive on the shut them down. the board made this vote against the advice of virginia's radically anti-abortion republican attorney general. the decision now goes to governor mcdonald for review. that's going on in virginia. in florida, over the weekend, 1200 mayors from all over the country gathered for the 80th annual conference of mayors. at the end of the conference they issued a list of things they voted on, anti-violence, drugs education and treatment. an reproductive rights.

they recognized ten ways in which women's health care was restricted and their rights inl pinged in the country. it confirmed the importance of women's product reproductive rights and called for congress in in the united states to improve access to reproductive health care. that's the nations mayors but there's more. today a group of catholic nuns launched a bus tour from iowa to virginia of nine states. they are calling it nuns on the bus. nuns drive for faith, family and fairness. after the vatican said in april that nuns in america are spending too much time on social justice issues and caring for the poor when they ought to be focused on being goodty abortion activists, the nuns decided, no, instead to travel around in their bus now the talk about other things. they are now, if they are week, for example, talking about how much the republican paul ryan budget that mitt romney said he would adopt as president would

hurt the poor and the sick and the people who nuns can't help but be nice to and be concerned about even when the church tells them to focus on other things. so whether or not all of these developments mean the pendulum is really swinging back or people are getting mad about how far it has swung, i have one thing to say here personally, not as a tv show host here but just as a person who happens to be related to some nuns. don't mess with nuns. it's not a warning. it's not advice. it's not a threat. it is a fact i have learned from personal experience. ask anyone in my family. if you mess with nuns, you will lose every time. you will always regret messing with nuns. joining us is debbie wasserman schultz, chair of the democratic national committee. thank you for being here. >> thank you, rachel. great to be here with you. >> i realize you are not catholic. do you agree that no one should mess with nuns. >> they would be at the bottom

of the list of women or men they would want to mess. >> under any circumstances. let me ask you, looking at those developments in turn, the conference of mayor's resolution, the mayors speak for a lot of americans. the virginia board -- >> they are a nonpartisan group. >> absolutely. and also techno kratic group doing what is best for their constituents. the virginia board of health, the outpouring in michigan, thousands of people on the michigan state capital in response to them shutting up the legislators last week and the nuns defying the vatican saying we are not going to be abortion activists and do what we think is right. do you think it is wrong to talk about the idea there is a reaction to what we have seen? is there a backlash. >> you can take it to when the republicans took over the house and became the majority and

introduced the bill you referenced, hr 3 that would have changed the definition of rape to mean only forcible rape. there's been this relentless attack on women and a relentless hyper focus on women's reproductive rights in in spite of the fact that the number one, two and three issue is creating jobs and getting the economy turned around. their obsession with women's bodies and controlling women's bodies has really seeped all the way down so deeply in the extremism has seeped to so deeply to the republican party they have state after state that is initiating this legislation and so much so that yours and my generation which is really benefitted fromming are reproductive freedom our entire lives and essentially become complacent, now even women who are my girlfriends and probably your girlfriends who never pay attention are saying, okay, you know, this is enough to get me off my couch and out of my house.

and on to the lawn of the state capital. to fight back. >> in terms of strategy on these issues, i feel like the big dynamic in american partisan politics is on the right there's a conservative movement that operates independently of the republican party and they are constantly pulling the republican party to the right, demanding orthodoxy, purification. and they are doing that whether the republicans are in power. it is an external force to the party at least. in the democratic party this isn't a progressive movement that has the same effect on the democratic party. so democrats don't move much on theier o issue. they are not drawn to the left the same way republicans are drawn to the right. abortion rights are almost a litmus test for republicans. there are almost no pro--choice republicans left. there is a lot of anti-abortion rights democrats. how can they say come to us when there are so many democrats running for office right now and holding important elected office

who are against abortion rights? >> because we are the big ten party and we welcome a diversity of points of view and you often times see democrats that are anti-choice, that aren't making the top of their legislative agenda. so there's a difference between someone who simply has a personal view that is different than the majority of our party and someone who says i'm going to washington, or i'm going to the state capital to make limiting abortion rights my number one priority. we are tolerant and respectful of a diverse point of view. the republicans are not. on top of that they nominate candidates for president like mitt romney who want to take it even further, support personhood amendments and when it comes to the issues important to women, like paycheck fairness and the lily ledbetter act they wouldn't take a position and say whether they would allow those things to

become law. it is dramatically out of step, out of touch extremism that exexists from the top to bottom of the republican party is really, i think, finally startling and shocking to women, enough to get many women who aren't normally involved and engaged off the sidelines. >> that key issue about intensity among elected officials and on people that care about it. >> that's enough. >> debbie wasserman schultz, member of congress from florida and chair of the national committee and again not a nun. >> not a nun. >> thank you for being here. >> frank rich was here, congresswoman debbie wasserman schultz. this is my best night at this desk in sometime. i this is my best night at this desk in sometime. this is my best night at this desk in sometime. don't this is my best night at this desk in sometime. ha this is my best night at this desk in sometime. ve this is my best night at this desk in sometime. muc this is my best night at this desk in sometime. h o this is my best night at this desk in sometime. f a this is my best night at this desk in sometime. vo this is my best night at this desk in sometime. ic this is my best night at this

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at the top of the show we talked about the montana republican party convention this weekend featured a bullet ridden outhouse labelled the obama presidential library an included the birth certificate of the president keep labelled bull blp blch. but they are winning bigger battles than the decorative signs on outhouses. that story is coming up. in high school, i had a physics teacher by the name of mr. davies. he made physics more than theoretical, he made it real for me. we built a guitar,

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and we, the locals, found delight again. that's the power of all of us. that's the power of all of us. that's the membership effect of american express. 1984, ron altd reagan won re-election by such a huge margin, he won 49 states. ronald reagan that year even won wisconsin as a republican, which is almost statistically impossible. democrats always win wisconsin in presidential elections. since democrats lost that one year in 1984, when they lost everything, they have won wisconsin ever year since. when the democrats lost the next election in 1988, they still won wisconsin. michael dukakis won in 1988. in 1992, bill clinton and the democrats won wisconsin.

in 1996, same again, democrats won wisconsin wi. when the democrats lost and bush beat al gore. al gore nevertheless won wisconsin. in 2004 when president george w. bush beat john kerry, kerry won in wisconsin. for the last 24 years, democrats have won wisconsin in presidential elections every single time. this year, however, republicans say they are going to win it. at least so said mitt romney today. >> we're going to win wisconsin and we're going to get the white house. >> reporter: the implicit case that republicans are making this year about them having good chances in wisconsin, the implicit case is not so much that mitt romney is a perfect candidate for trying to win over a state that hasn't gone republican in 24 years. it's not so much about mitt romney as an individual cate candidate. it is that republican politics are getting very wisconsiny overall. when mr. romney took the stage

in wisconsin today, he was shoulder to shoulder with the republican party and wisconsin governor walker who just survived a state-wide recall campaign two weeks ago and kroom ryan, there the republican bug chairman. mr. romney endorsed ryan's kill medicare budget as his own and he started to hire paul ryan budget staffers as his policy adviser staffers. and for republicans, wisconsin isn't just a place to try to win where they usually don't win. it is not a place where they think this particular candidate has a particular appeal and therefore a particularly good shot at winning. for the republican party it's not about that. for the republican party, wisconsin is important this year because wisconsin all of a sudden is what republicans stand for. wisconsin this year is where republicans are getting all of their ideas. >> we want to hire more government workers, more firemen, policemen, teacher thes? did he not get the message,

wisconsin. the american people did. it is time to cut back on government and help the american people. >> i think at the national level we can learn a lot from this guy. >> this guy, republican governor t scott walker of wisconsin. the message of wisconsin, according to the republican party's presidential nominee this year is, it's time to cut firemen and policemen and teachers. that's the message of wisconsin. and he says the message of wisconsin is now the national message for the republican party. here's the thing, though. if the big republican idea this year is cutting firefighters, teachers and police officers, it is shrinking the public sector, firing people with public sector jobs. we're already doing that now and you know what? it is not helping. this is a chart of public sector jobs in the last four recessions. we have organized the recessions by president. what's the difference between the current fragile recovery

from the current recession and the previous three. this recession was worse. second of all in the previous three recessions, policymakers let public sector employment keep growing which helped with the recovery. president obama proposed doing that this time too with his jobs act, but republicans in congress have said no along with some conservative democrats. in trying to recover from this recession, we have been doing something differently than in previous ones. in trying to recover from this recession, we have been hampered by a public sector that is still firing people. cops and teachers and firefighters. we have been trying to recover from a recession while firing people in the this public sector. all the while wondering why things aren't getting better like they did in previous recessions. when paul crudeman, the nobel prize winning economist writes about this, he calls it the republican economy we are in. that drives republicans nuts and he means it and he says it is a

huge, huge problem not just politically but for the country. he says overall the picture for america in 2012 resembles the great mistake of 1937 when fdr prematurely slashed spending sending the u.s. economy in to the second leg of the great depression. in fdr's case this was an unforced error since he had a solidly democratic congress. in president obama's case, much but not all of the policy wrong turn lies with the obstructionist republican majority in the house. he wrote about the first depression but what he says we are in right now is another depression. he says it is not a recession, it's a desession. he says it is beatable. he says politically and economically and he says understanding why republicans are blaming everything on policeman and firefighters now is the key that unlocks the door to making things better. nobel prize winner paul krugman is here for the interview.

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>> most of the ideas that create jobs and grow our economy, most of the republicans have not lifted a fing and congress should pass a bill to put firefighters, police officers and teachers back on the job. they should have passed the bill a long time ago to put construction workers to work rebuilding roads, bridges and runways. >> he wants us to hire more

firemen, policemen and teacher thes. did he not get t the message, wisconsin. >> joining us is nobel prize winning economist, princeton economics professor and the author of "t end this depression now, paul krugman. and he does mean depression. thank you for being here. >> hi. good to be on. >> government jobs are real jobs obviously. i do not think of them as a huge proportion of the overall american economy. how much of a difference could it make to the overall economy and overall employment picture if we hadn't lost the public sector jobs? >> the right comparison is if we had normal job growth, which is what happened under president george w. bush. if he had that kind of job growth instead of laying off 600,000 public employees we'd have an unemployment rate that was pun percentage point lower directly from those jobs. we would be at 7% unemployment

and that's not counting the indirect affects. oovp the fact schoolteachers if they were working would have money to spend on other things and more private sector jobs too. this would not be a depression if we haddent had the cuts. >> is there any way you can quantity fie the impact of decisions made about public sector employment that could be at the federal level versus the states. >> most states -- states operate under balanced budget rules and local governments, too. they can't do a lot of deficit spending. they could have raised taxes to hire more workers or have fewer layoffs but mostly it is a question of making sure they have the money. if we have a federal revenue sharing program which we did have at the beginning of the recovery act which president obama proposed last fall then you could do that. so, if we had -- i have been

saying $300 billion a year but we can negotiate numbers here. if the federal government were to provide that money the teachers would be rehired and we would be out of the depression. >> in terms of the republican counterargument on this. i have been calling this republican school politics. romney arguing against the idea of public sector ploy employment that crowds out private sector employment but there is a strange argument, to my mind, made by his campaign that we need fewer teachers. that we have teachers, we have too many teachers artificially supported by union rules or something and we ought to have fewer public sector people because we have overpopulated those sectors. >> try to visit a classroom. do you get the impression -- my -- i sometimes wake up with nightmares of being an elementary or high school teacher which would be a much harder job than i have right now. do you think those hard-working teachers have an easy time because they don't have, they

have too few students to teach? the other thing is, look, we are in a depression. right now, public sector employment doesn't crowd out private sector employment. it is the reverse. slashing those jobs is making our economy worse. it is a stupid argument to say we need fewer teachers but for sure a bad time to lay them off. >> even if we didn't have enough this might be a good time for some extras. >> that's right. by the way, the president did say what about the potholes which are proliferating, certainly across new jersey, what about construction and repair and public spending we have been cutting at the time it should be increasing instead. >> paul krugman, nobel prize winning columnist, author of "end this depression now" which is required reading. thank you for being here. a big election update up next. ttd# 1-800-345-2550

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up date on what maybe the most riveting race in american politics that nobody's been paying attention to. it is creep verse paid race. the contenders are gary creep and a career prosecutor named carlin paid. mr. creep had 56 votes and the election votes have been counting 135,000 absentee ballots cast. they have been posting daily updates. it seemed like the career prosecutor guy grabbed a significant lead. go garland paid but it was not to last. now the birther guy crawled in to the lead. one of our great nation's preeminent sad zero kates that barack obama is secretly foreign is close to taking the bench