so he's pretty clear. i mean, jesus talks, i think, you know, dozens of times in the gospel about helping the poor. he couldn't be clearer. and you can say this budget is republican or democrat, but you really can't say it's catholic. >> father james martin, you will be coming back as the official chaplain of "the last word" and some other show -- >> i'm honored. >> yeah. and ezra klein, you are the official. re-election. let's play "hardball." good evening i'm chris matthew in washington. let me start with politics. how do you win elections? start with your base. they are the ones. you lock them in. then go to the reachables. those inclined to vote for you. they're the twos. then the undecided. the threes. leave the fours to the other guy. watch obama run. he worked hard recent weeks to

lock in women voters with equal pay. underlining his issue on women's issues with a push from biden, he has done the same on gays backing full marriage he qualities. last week, he went further than any other politician in history protecting young immigrants. brought to this country illegal by their parents. in each case, he's taken action the other guy, romney, won't do because he sold himself to the right-wing pressure groups. he is going where the other guy can't go and scored politically. this hour we expect president obama to give a news conference at the g-20 summit in mexico and we will bring that to you live when it happens. let's bring in chris cillizza and maria. is this the name of obama's game, nailing down your base and going for the reachables before the other guy gets a shot of him? is this the name of the game, nailing down your base, going for the reachable it is other

guy can't get because taking positions he has kept himself away from by the committedments he made so far in the primary. your thoughts? >> well, look, i think on immigration certainly, chris, what you saw was president obama taking advantage of the power of his office. mitt romney can't do something like this. whether we debate whether he would or not, seems like he wouldn't, but we would not, cannot do this. president obama can. hispanics are clearly a pillar of the base. go back to 2008. hispanics. young people. those are and affluent whites are really kind of the three big pillars of the base hispanics have become a little dispirited you can see it in the polling because the dream act, the dream act didn't pass. you could argue president obama didn't focus add much on their priorities as he would have liked. i'm not suggesting it was done for only political reasons, but political calculation thipd is to say to hispanics i am your

guy and mitt romney is not. boxes mitt romney in. it makes it very hard for him to take a position. >> i think the safe assumption since june of 2012, it has something to do with politics. they quote obama's strategists see this election as a block by block knife fight to be fought in fewer than a dozen states and likely decided by a very slim majority. this isn't 2008. we think people are looking at the race the wrong way. the right way, the expansion of the electorate is our base. african-american, hispanics, young people and women. again, my point, you start with the people you think are going to vote for you. you make sure they do. don't let the other guy poach any by taking strong positions. you know he can't follow you on. romney can't go for pro choice. romney won't go for it because he's locked in with the business crowd. he can't go for marriage equality because he's in with

the religious right. i like this kind of politics. >> he is locked out. there there is major speech both obama and romney will give on friday to a hispanic group. we will have to see what he says on that. he's also romney trying to make moves into reaching out to african-americans and will be talking to the naacp. he has been meeting with top african-american journalists. he is trying to make some moves in that direction. >> come on. can we get sophisticated here? >> no, no. it is to -- frame himself to a tolerant person, frame himself to those independents that want to see somebody, who they feel like is tolerant and open. you know, you talk to republicans about this. the nonposition so far on immigration. they saw in perry someone that had a stance about that would broaden the party. so far romney has not been able to do that. >> exhibit a, bob schaefer. he keeps asking. much more polite fellow. very fun. he forced romney to dodge ball.

romney dodging the question of good old bob schaefer's nailing him with it. where do you stand on what the president did giving legal protection to people under age 30 who came here below age 16 because their parents came here and brought them here. here he is trying to dodge it. >> would you repeal this order if you became president? >> well, sit back and look at the issue. with regards to these kids brought in by their parents, through no fault of their own, there needs to be a long-term solution. >> but would you repeal this? >> well, it would be overtaken by events if you will by virtue of my putting in place a long-term solution. >> would you leave this in place while you worked out a long-term solution or would yu just repeal it? >> we'll look at that setting as we reach that. >> chris cillizza, he just grabs on you like in a cowboy movie and hangs on and won't let go of

the guy. he will go for the hispanic district and say on day three of me being the president of the united states i will bring the congress a comprehensive immigration bill. something like that. that's the answer. >> well, i think the answer broadly is that they don't want to talk about immigration. they want to talk about the economy and he will pivot as quickly as he can to talking not about immigration and the economy. the way do you that if you are mitt romney, say -- you know, look, president obama has done what he has done. mitt romney said what marco rubio said a few hours ago when he put out a statement friday. this is a short-term solution. president obama should have addressed this earlier. he's not going to dedicate any real-time to talking about immigration and is going to spend it. i would say, chris, you know, yes, this clearly will help president obama bolster turnout among hispanics. undecided voters, 7% to 12% of

people who have not to me either gone one way or the other given how partisan the country is at this point, those folks in my opinion are not voting on immigration. they are voting if you look at exit polling. >> that's not -- >> state of the economy. i totally agree. that's who romney is trying to get to. he believe hispanics may not ultimately be reachable in this election. i think that's a short-term calculation because -- his panics in the long term, they are in trouble. >> let's go -- i think, though, if he points out that this is a short-term solution i would come back with a bit of history and say emancipation proclamation was a short solution. he has to start somewhere. let's take a look at a congressman that has a tough primary fight. running against the ben quayle. in a statement he said last week the president decided to grant am nest write and hand out work

permits to hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants. 23 million immigrants remain unemployed. participation rate at a 30-year low. this amounts to -- the american people who are struggle something 2 economy. president obama asked the department of homeland security to look the other way on immigration policy. i asked him to respect the role of law. nice try. go on the far right of dan quayle's son, ben. apparently boehner has not promised to bring the bill up, reverse the executive order. >> that's right. rubio backs off of what he was going to try to do. you see mitch mcconnell throw the ball to mitt romney and say you are the leader of the party now. let's figure out where we want to go? exactly. hot potato issue. i think chris is right. mitt romney wants to focus on the economy, economy, economy. the problem is that oftentimes latinos are just more in line with democratic policies and how they see the role of government

and how they see tax reform and health care. >> this is -- the old $64,000 question. he is going after hispanics and gay people and going after african-americans. going after women. largest group there are in the country, women. cross cut all females, what's he going to do for white men? the president. does he have something in his bag for them. >> he's -- his most difficult demographic group, particularly downscale economically white men. i think that, again, to the extent he has something in his back -- i think it is selling that the economy is slowly but surely getting better. i would say that cuts across all these groups. women, men, hispanics. >> can he get 40% without argument? >> i -- well, we will see. i don't think he's not going to win the white vote but he -- >> 40%, he needs 40. >> if you think he is going to win, yes. i honestly don't know the answer to that. it is the -- to your point. it is $64,000 question.

can barack obama convince undecided voters, white men, suburban women, that they have a positive affirmative answer are you better off than four years ago even if you are ..1% better than four years ago. that's the next five months in the election. >> well said. let's get back to my tough guy question. white male -- i was thinking -- i know this is a tough one. this is what -- number fours. i said the ones are your people, twos are your leaders. hardest people to get. it could be that if he would just go up and do a rust belt thing and biden can help. clinton can help a lot pv. talk about the fact the other guys are free markets here, boss kind of guy, who looks out for the boss and money people. he was the one that stuck his neck out. >> on the auto bailout. >> he stuck his neck out -- men like to hear a guy stuck his neck out. >> he stuck his neck out on the auto bailout and stuck his neck,

took a risk in going after bin laden. that bumper sticker slow began biden talks about. >> i love your synapses. that's an amazing -- remind me of that one. bin laden is gone and -- >> that would play well with that -- barack obama in 2008, 41% of the white male vote he did better than al gore did. better than john kerry. again, they are looking at, i think mostly out west to latinos and up to swelling that vote and obviously to maintaining that strong -- >> 20 years from now they have a great strategy. >> the question is it now? is that demographic -- >> i remember watching that movie, i remember watching that movie. general custard is talk to crazy horse, imaginative conversation. sir, we are going to wipe you people out. yeah, but not today. not today. >> that's a question -- like is this the 2012 winning stretch for barack obama? is it the 2016 winning strategy for democrat running against mitt romney?

>> you mean hillary clinton? >> i'm sorry. i'm losing you. >> what was that? i don't know. >> thank you. it is great to have you on. as always, thank you. quick synapses, ability to connect quickly. new reports say marco rubio isn't being vetted to be mitt [ heart beating, monitor beeping ] woman: what do you mean, homeowners insurance doesn't cover floods? [ heart rate increases ] man: a few inches of water caused all this? [ heart rate increases ] woman #2: but i don't even live near the water. what you don't know about flood insurance may shock you --

including the fact that a preferred risk policy starts as low as $129 a year. for an agent, call the number that appears on your screen. you want to know where the presidential race is being fought? these are the cities where the campaigns and allies are spending the most money on ads. number five in cincinnati. at four, roanoke, lynchburg, virginia. number three, colorado springs. number two, norfolk. the market with the most tv ads in this presidential cam this week, richmond. number one target now. there you have it. cities where the most ad money is being spent this week. three of them are right there in virginia. old dominion, mother of presidents. we will be right back. nearly two months since mitt

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nearly two months since mitt romney appoint ad long-time aide to head up his presidential search committee. speculation about who he would pick is still going strong. marco rubio is not even being vetted. that stirred a lot of news. maggie, you first here. abc and "washington post" reported today that marco rubio, hot shot senator from florida, is not even getting vetted. knowledgeable republican sources tell me rub wroe is not being vetted by mitt romney's vice presidential search team. rubio, by the wapp cnbc this morning and would not comment on the vp process. let's listen to him not

commenting. >> have you he campaign? >> as i said repeatedly i will not discuss the vice presidential process out of respect for governor romney. i know he will make a great choice. i'm not discussing. >> it did you already say that? >> i did. >> here he is again. asked romney about news rubio hasn't been vetted. let's watch romney. >> what did you make of the abc news report that rubio was not being vetted but governor pawlenty is being vetted. >> i get a kick out of speculation going on. i'm not going to comment on the process, of course. i can tell you this. only beth myers and i know who is being vet. >> later he said those reports are truly false and rubio is being vetted. why would he say something so ludicrous as only i and his assistant, beth myers, know this, when everybody knows that's illogical? as mr. spock would say. >> i think he was trying to tamp down some of the anger existing out there among supporters of

marco rubio. his aides won't comment on this at all. they won't touch it, but a lot of their supporters are touching it. >> so, he wants it. >> i think they don't want to seem like they're being dissed. he's hanging out there alone today. marco rubio was not being considered. i think mitt romney was trying to deal with that but i don't think that was perhaps the best way to do it. >> let's go to the edge. he's not on the list. let's go to these names. my three picks are as follows. it's important because you can't win the republican presidency without a never happened. he's an economic heavy weight. he could be president tomorrow if you're a conservative republican. i think jeb bush could ever get him talked into it, i think he would be the nominee for sure. he brings in the the most important swing state, florida. he could be president tomorrow. vastly respected across the

political spectrum. of course associated mostly with his brother. the third one is my -- horse which is john thune. >> i like john. >> he's incredibly disciplined. handled the defeat by johnson. he beat daschle. he's especially evangelical. >> i like two of your three. i think portman is still in the lead. i would insert pawlenty or bobby jindal. into that second slot. >> isn't pawlenty too much of a moderate? >> i don't think so. i think pawlenty was a good governor. >> terrible candidate for president. three hours. >> that could be true but a different -- >> okay, your number one pick. >> portman. two, pawlenty and thune for three. >> maggie, your picks if you dare to do this. >> i dare to do it. it is not that riveting. the same as michael. i think pawlenty is very much under consideration. >> how did he get to be the hot tomale this week? every one of my producers are are talking about. is that because he's all with the guy he's traveling around?

>> a, they wonder whether they can put minnesota in play. whether that's realistic or not. number one, two, mitt romney likes him, trusts him. he's be out there aggressively for him. this is a do no harm situation. >> we can all agree on that. why do we all agree? not trying to get a game changer. why would -- why do we agree he's not going for a game changer like sarah palin? >> two words, sarah palin. she's become the cautionary tale of what you don't do. it's not like she was the first pick that was a problem, but i think there was a question about whether she was ready to step into the office on day one. romney thinks that's going to be one of the most important qualifications. >> okay. you know why quarterbacks throw the long ball? you know why they throw the ball at the buzzer in basketball? sometimes it goes in. why would romney not want to take it -- because he thinks he can win without it. >> i think it is less about

sarah palin type pick and more about him. it is more about his personality, the kind of man he is and the kind of presidency he wants to have and the people he wants around him in that top spot. reflect that and i think -- >> not to knock him. what nixon said in '68, doesn't matter who i'm running with, i'm going to be the issue. >> may not be the case here. if he throws that long ball -- to b the story but him. i think he wants to this be -- the story but him. >> which makes the case for portman because he's doubling down on good economics. >> reinforces his underlying message. >> maggie, do you think it's important, none of the three of us are protestants, but do you think it's important they have a protestant running mate? is that important in american politics? to have at least one protestant on the ticket. he's mormon, if he picks, he could pick i guess jeb bush's catholic. he's a convert.

is that an issue anymore or not with people? or is that just yesterday? >> i don't think it's a huge issue now. i think there are area where it plays, but this is not going to be in terms of the slices, i don't think that's going to be what keeps people home or gets them. >> i just dug up some stuff for him. that john thune, beside being the lanky, attractive, very polished newcomer from out west, he's evangelical. he does cover that card, which is important as we know in the south. >> so is pawlenty. >> is he even gentlelady cal as well? >> yes. >> good roots in that community as more broadly in the base of the party. >> how come we never talk about the guy from arkansas? huckabee? >> because he doesn't want us to talk about him. >> he's hosting a radio show right now. >> that's right. >> here's a few names i don't think are going to make it. wisconsin congressman, paul ryan. new hampshire senator kelly ayotte and former minnesota,

pawlenty's already on the list. didn't take him off the list. back to you, maggie. what about the possibility of these sort of darker horses? chris christie, paul ryan, kelly ayotte. >> one of the most interesting things in the last two days in addition to the rubio bid was "the new york times" had a last couple of paragraphs in a story night saying that governor romney has formed impressions about governor christie as he's doing the vp auditioning. with various people on the bus tour. christie has not benoit. governor christie is often late was the line. essentially shown up late for a fund-raiser he was co-hosting with mitt romney and romney was the warm-up act for chris christie. i don't think the candidate enjoyed that especially. i think he is grateful to chris christie for the help he has given him and an early endorser and often endorser but i don't

think he is of the impression that he would be the top of the ticket in that respect. attention would be on christie. >> you're never late when you have to meet the boss. it goes back to the point that person fitting into romney's -- >> that's why i'm thinking thune and portman. everybody says portman has the common bet here. second bet is pawlenty. my second bet is thune or you never know if jeb decides he wants it. you never know. >> warm-up for 16. >> he has never going to be president. he doesn't get into the game now. thank you. lbj decided and had to get aboard that team. michael steele, great to have you on. especially we are not arguing. maggie, any time we can have you. up next, president obama is set to give a news conference at the g-20 summit in mexico. we will bring that to you live when it happens. . we are minutes away from president obama's live press conference from the g-20 summit. here to preview his remarks

coming up quickly are two white house reporters. politico's joe williams. "time" magazine's michael sheer. two weeks ago to set the political stakes in the president -- press conference which ended up hurting him. he was quoted as saying -- i don't know what context you put this in-private sector is doing just fine. my question to you, joe, does had have something -- your sense is this a political spin or just world affairs he will be covering? [ male announcer ] it seems like every company has a facebook page these days. but where's the relationship status? well, esurance is now in a relationship...with allstate. and it looks pretty serious. esurance. click or call.

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hello, everyone, i'm lynn berry. here's what's happening. there are two reports out of egypt on the declining health of hosni mubarak. mubarak is clinically dead. his lawyer says he's still alive. speaking at the g-20 summit in mexico, vladimir putin reiterated that syria should decide the fate of barber al assad. a canadian porn actor accused of killing and dismembering his lover pleaded not guilty. now we'll send you back to "hardball."

welcome back, and what a day in that sandusky trial. dottie sandusky took the stand in her husband's defense. and denied any inappropriate behavior between her husband and the alleged victims. this came on the heels of several defense witnesses, including a psychologist, who diagnosed the former coach as having something called histrionic personality disorder. this is the defense move to try to explain creepy love letters sandusky sent a victim. will this be enough to give the jury reasonable doubt? pat murphy an attorney in philadelphia. and wendy murphy is a former sex crimes prosecutor. wendy, you start on this case, i don't know how a wife could

defend her husband, that she never went downstairs when her husband was entertaining these young lads in the basement. how would she know, if she made a point of not even hearing noises coming from down there. even one kid yelling he thought it was sound proof because he was making all this noise and nobody came to his aide. now she says, not only did i not come to his aide, but nothing happened because i didn't come to his aide. >> i wish i could tell you i haven't seen this before. i've seen grandmothers stand up for their grandsons who were rapists. the defense had to put her up there to make the claim in front of the jury, so they can at least argue that there was no screaming going on from the basement. >> she says so. >> the victim who and it's a horrible piece of information. but in addition, she in a sense becomes the face of sandusky,

she's got his name, she's married to him. the defense wants the jury to think he can't be dangerous because she seems nice. it's all theatre. the best part of her testimony was the fact that prosecution didn't cross examine her because that is so insulting to the defense cht it's like saying she didn't make a dent and she doesn't because the jury expects her to lie. sadly. and stand by her man. >> one of the great lines in political scandal was the scandal in britain when one of the christine was asked what did you think of the denials of the husbands. she said well, they had say that, wouldn't they. they would say that. pat's laughing because some of this is ludicrous. here we have a case which is about an institution which you and i have come to love over the years. doesn't this remind you of the roman catholic church? where the proctors look out for the others instead of the

constituents? the true believers who believed in this coach. >> yeah, right. and as you know, you and i grew up in the same neighborhood in philadelphia. we're both catholic and penn state fans, but we both also know that the highest duty of the society is so protect our children and we both have children and i know as a former prosecutor, but also someone who has been dealing with these cases, sexual assault cases against children, completely destroy their lives far too often and that's whey they need all the help they can get. that's why my heart and prayers go out to these ten victims, that this evil man really just hurt them forever and i will say

to go back to an earlier point, the fact that joe, another philadelphia guy, a prosecutor in this case, has done a masterful job 21 witnesses, over three and a half days, when the defense puts on someone like dottie sandusky, he just says let her say her piece. the facts speak for themselves. eight of the ten victims testified. two eyewitnesses, a janitor who said he saw oral sex happen. an assistant coach who saw anal sex happening in the shower. these thing, eyewitness testimony not just from the victims who had to live through the horrific, horrific action, but two people who saw it. and spoke up. that's important, but if i could say one thing, chris, the comparison. we need to learn a lesson from this. so this never happens again. for 15 months, in harrisburg, they have sat in the judiciary committee for getting rid of the statute of limitations. not even had one hearing. state rep mike mcgehee both

yesterday said what's going on here? what else do we need to do? are these children, happens all over the country. >> we don't need one because these kids are 6 and 7, by the time they're 18, it's gone. back to wendy on the key point. what is the defense team up to here? are they trying to get a mistrial by finding one of the 12 jurors that's willing to believe this argument that somehow histrionic personality disorder, they was a show off, an explanation of this case >> that is such a crazy theory. first of all, it's a whacko disorder. it is very sexist. widely perceived as insulting to women and you know, this guy clearly doesn't have it even if you believe it's true because remember, he's only acting sexual toward little boys. if you have a histrionic personality disorder, you act like a cooke to everybody, not just little boys. i think the swrur's going to say how much did this expert to say what? it sounds desperate, chris, and

it's just, i think it's helping to sync the defense. it's hard to believe, but that a defense witness could actually make things worse. >> patrick, your last thought. just quickly, what is the defense strategy? why are they doing this with the poor mother, poor wife making this ridiculous claim? what are they up to? >> i think they're grasping at straws. i think that's clearly he's grasping at straws, whether it's the histrionic defense, the investigators talking to the victims, saying well, i didn't hear anything. he's grasping at straws and people who criticize defense attorney and said he should have took the plea, maybe they didn't offer him a plea. he should go to jail forever. >> it's going to be a horrible situation for him in prison, by the way. thank you. a lot of murphies here today. up next, when republicans want control of the house of representatives, their real prize was the subpoena power.

they have got it and are using it to go after the attorney general. get him to empty his pockets. stand in the spotlight as long as they can. see if anything happens. that's ahead. this is "hardball," place for politics. new poll numbers from maine where there's a senator race that could balance the power of capitol hill. it's a run away for king. the state's former governor the is up big. 50%. hasn't said which party he'll caucus with if he gets to the senate. with numbers like this, it's more of a question of when. by the way, president obama leads big in maine. we'll be right back. i want to ask you first of all today have you and your attorneys produced internally the materials responsive to the subpoenas?

new poll numbers from maine where there's a senator race that could balance the power of capitol hill. it's a run away for king. the state's former governor the is up big. 50%. hasn't said which party he'll caucus with if he gets to the senate. with numbers like this, it's more of a question of when. by the way, president obama leads big in maine. we'll be right back. i want to ask you first of

i want to ask you first of all today have you and your attorneys produced internally the materials responsive to the subpoenas? >> we believe that we have -- >> no, mr. attorney general, you're not a good witness. a good witness answers the question asked. >> there is darrell issa in action. that was the house oversight committee chair, darrell issa, behaving in his usual way hammering eric holder for not turning over documents related to the so-called fast and furious campaign, the operation

carried out by the atf. shortly after that, issa set a vote holder in contempt of court, or congress rather, for tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. they just wrapped up a meeting that says he's still waiting for the documents he wants and hopes to get them tonight. former speaker of the california house and wade henderson, let me go to wade first because i want to understand is there any reason why we should put any trust in the good intentions of darrell issa here? >> none at all. he is pursuing a politically motivated witch hunt to force holder to resign. he's using fast and furious as the vehicle to pursue that, but nothing could be further from the factual bases. >> when i look at this, i just look at it and i don't mean to use this term too much, but it's almost like a stop and frisk. here's a chance to humiliate a distinguished member of the united states government. close friend of the president's. if he can humiliate this guy,

get to him, he'll be a big star in the republican caucus. he'll be dick nixon. >> that's what he thinks, but obviously, that will not be the case, chris. there are too many republicans, i think, that are responsible and responsible enough to know that you're, you don't go down the road that he's going down in terms of contempt of a cabinet member. you just don't do that unless it's similar to what occurred with reference to the bush administration when two members were cited in some manner or another for doing what they did of his staff. after that, there's nothing that you can justify such conduct. other than the fact that you're leading kind of a lynch like mob. >> let's go to some of the things that issa said before he even heard of this case. he was looking for a case. he said before he took the oath of this congress, november 8th, 2010. i want seven hearings a week timeses 40 weeks.

everybody knows close friend of the presidents, it is a surrogate operation. if he can humiliate this guy and get to him he will be a big star in the republican caucus. he will be dick nixon. >> that's what he thinks but obviously that will not the case. there are too many republicans responsible enough to know that -- you don't go down the road that he's going down in terms of contempt of a cabinet member. you just don't do that unless it is similar to what occurred with reference to the bush administration when two members were cited in some manner or another for doing what they did and -- of his staff. after that, there's nothing that you can justify such conduct other than the fact that you are leading a lynch-like mob. >> let's go to some of the things issa heard of this case. november 8, 2010, before he took the oath, i want seven hearings a week times 40 weeks. he didn't say what they were for. he also said -- what's your jurisdiction?

he said "we own everything. world trade center. >> chris, attorney general general holder testified at least eight times before congress. he has turned over thousands of pages of testimony. he is the only attorney general that actually appointed an inspector general and ended the program which was the subject of controversy. rather than investigating, for example, attorney general who started the program under debate, operation wide receiver, he has not been before the committee and had no discussion or with atf officials, who were involved. a.g. holder who actually disciplined some of the atf officials who were involved. so the ruth is this is about the facts regarding fast and furious. this is about creating a climate where the a.g. will be discredited and will resign. >> i worked on the hill. as you know, willie brown. you are not supposed to make the come nin comments about someone else. you saw the tape where he makes

fun of attorney general holder by you are not my kind of witness. you are not a good witness. what's this? you get to be the teacher and you get to reprimand the student? i mean, the kind -- i have never seen it aimed at a cabinet member before. >> it really means you should not be given any opportunity to exercise power. chris, when you receive the mantle of leadership on the power side, it automatically imposes up on you a higher level of responsibility than this congressman seems to be able to discharge. he's got to be somewhat of an embarrassment to his colleagues just by his heavy handedness. >> let me -- i want to you take -- give us a narration here. darrell issa, the attorney general, what's been going on here? how long has this been building? >> this has been building for months. darrell issa was determined almost from the outset of him holding the gavel he was determined to hold one member of the administration in some

degree of difficulty because of their actions. he focused on fast and furious. obviously this was -- >> explain fast and furious. >> a gun-walking program where guns were purchased in the united states, taken across the border back to mexico, distributed by individuals who had no license or right to purchase -- >> the idea was to track officials. >> we were tracking those guns to find out where they went and hoped to buy the purchaser -- to get the purchaser as well as the recipient. it was started under the previous administration they had operation wide receiver which was the precursor of fast and furious. it ended up with in the depth of officials who were involved with the u.s. government and atf official, i believe, was killed. but this was a terrible operation. it should never have taken place. much to his credit, attorney general holder ended the program, he disciplined atf officials involved. he convened and -- inspector

general to take a look at the issue. he testified over eight times with the congress and he's provided thousands of documents -- >> your theory is with this guy darrell issa, his goal is to push this further into rub the guy's face into it. >> absolutely. to force the attorney general to resign as a discredited official. there has never been an attorney general held in contempt of congress. there's never been a vote by the house of representatives on the contempt citation. to do it now against eric holder is to ignore all the facts of the case and to use a fiction to promote this kind of political agenda and i hope that both members of the democratic party as well as republicans will see this for what it is. >> i don't want to start too much as far as fire here but it is my instinct. is this ethnic, mr. mayor? >> i think it has h some ethnic flavor to it. it will be interrupted by some in that vein. have you to be careful you don't

give the opportunity to make that case factually and what darrell issa is doing is -- has given some individuals the opportunity to make that case and to compare it to a stop and frisk. >> what i just did it because -- it smells like it to me and i think there is a disdain on the . did you know with your health insurance you may now have some preventive benefits with no co-pays or out-of-pocket costs? it isn't just your cholesterol screening. it's all the tomorrows you're looking forward to. learn more at healthcare.gov.

we finish tonight with this. something unseemly about the way certain republicans are going after attorney general holder. they are demanding he empty his pockets, submit himself to a body search by a member of

congress who even before he took the oath of office himself for this congress promised to spend his entire time using the subpoena power to hurt obama. as he put it himself i want seven hearings a week times 40 weeks. we own everything, darrell issa said. armed with a subpoena power he was going to spend his time hauling obama people before him. here we go. a congress that does about nothing to create jobs or people without jobs the best way do their job is shower the obama administration with subpoenas. make headlines and hopefully skewer someone close to the president. in this case eric holder. it smells like darrell issa has one goal, get holder under the lights and go through his pockets and looks like stop and frisk. the mere act of which shows who is the boss and gets to let you go your way. who says you're clean. that's what this subcommittee is up to, trying to make noise so people think they are doing something up there on cal