cynthia tucker, david bernstein, thanks for your time tonight. both of you have a great weekend. thank you for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. bain bain go away. let's play some "hardball." good evening. i'm michael mer connish in philadelphia for chris matthews. leading off tonight, when you're explaining, you're losing. right now, mitt romney is explaining. did he really leave bain in 1999? why does his name appear on bain documents subsequent to that? and why does it matter? because accurate or not, the bain mess casts doubt on romney's principle argument that it's his business experience that most qualifies him to be president. the obama campaign dented

romney's strength, karl rove couldn't have done a better job. perhaps it was because the romney campaign was so eager to change the subject that they let slip to drudge that condoleezza rice has emerged as a top v.p. pick. there are lots of reasons to believe this is nothing more than a shiny bright object to take our attention off of bain. but she would help romney plug a number of holes. plus president obama says his biggest mistake has been putting policy over story telling. i talked about that two nights ago here. why doesn't the president do a better job of telling people what he's accomplished. and what happens to penn state in the wake of the sandusky report? will it be given the ncaa's death penalty a ban from playing football for at least a year? finally, courtesy of "huffington post," politicians that look like disney characters. take ron paul. does he remind you of anyone? how about claude from the hunchback of notre dame. much more where that came from on the sideshow.

we begin with mitt romney's record at bain. msnbc david corn is washington bureau chief of mother jones magazine and the author of "showdown." rick tyler has a spokesman for gingrich and the gingrich super pac, winning our future. gentlemen, new details about romney's role at bain post 1999 continue to drip out today. various news organizations reported that according to the testimony he gave to the massachusetts ballot commission in 2002, romney continued to attend board meetings for businesses acquired by bain, including staples. this comes after reports from david corn in mother jones and yesterday the boston globe showed that romney was still the ceo of bain through 2002 according to s.e.c. filings. why is this important? well, it was beginning in 1999 that bain invested heavily in companies that were pioneers of outsourcing according to "the washington post." there's evidence that romney's standing has taken a hit recently. take a look at the latest real clear politics average of polls. obama has a 2.5 point lead over romney now.

today the romney campaign hastily arranged interviews with all the major networks. late this afternoon, romney talked to nbc's peter alexander. >> the president's campaign has been, i think, outrageous in making the kind of charges they have. i think the kind of attacks are beneath the dignity of the presidency. >> i want to clarify this then. after february of '99 you never attended a single meeting for bain. a business meeting, even by phone regarding bain or bain-controlled entities? >> you've asked quite a few questions there so let's go through. i didn't involve myself in any way with bain capital's enterprise after february of 1999. >> not participating in a single meeting -- >> i don't recall a single meeting or single participation in an investment decision by bain or personnel decision. >> rick, your campaign, your guy, newt gingrich brought this up in primary season and he was criticized, gingrich was. maybe romney would have been

better served if this was fully litigated in the primaries and not the general election. >> i think that's probably right. it was not fully litigated. it wasn't fully understood in fact. i give the romney campaign an enormous amount of credit. they won the argument. they basically said by attacking mitt romney they're attacking free enterprise. not true but it was a dominant narrative and won the day. but there's still the same questions that are out there and obviously these questions have taken romney off his message which is jobs and barack obama's economy. barack obama's story is that we're stuck at 8.2%. there's a $15 trillion debt. and just today he -- the hss is reversing welfare reform from bill clinton. >> david corn, you've been all over this story. explain to someone who has been half paying attention the significance of 1999 versus 2002. >> in some ways, it's a phony

distinction. but in some ways it isn't. that's why we're litigating and fighting over it. after '99 bain made some investments in certain companies that were involved in outsourcing jobs to china, india, mexico. mitt romney is trying to basically claim that he wasn't involved with those sort of decisions. even though he still owned the company, even though he still benefited from that company, even though he put the company on that path, he's trying to separate himself from those particular deals. there were some bankruptcies too in companies that happened after that stage. so that's why he's trying to make february '99 this bright line. but i had a story out yesterday, michael, that had bain in '98 when romney was ahead of it investing in a chinese manufacturing company that was making money off u.s. companies outsourcing jobs to them. even prior to this '99 bright line, there are lots of problems at bain. there are lots of problems with his own personal finances with

off shore companies. it's turning into a big mess. that's why we won't see much in terms of tax returns. i can tell you, i'm getting stuff in over the transom, tips here and there. there is just a wealth, pun intended, a wealth of material to keep looking at in terms of bain deals and romney's personal finances and there are questions of whether he even didn't tell the full truth on many of the disclosure forms he's filled out. >> gentlemen, on cbs this morning, president obama said a tax attacks on romney's record at bain were appropriate. >> i do not think it disqualifies him, but i also think it's important if that's his main calling card, if his basic premise is that i'm mr. fix-it on the economy because i made a lot of money, i think it is entirely appropriate to look at that record and see whether in fact his focus was creating

jobs and he successfully did that and when you look at the record, there are questions there. >> rick, do you think that this is all opposition research oriented? it's coming from chicago, that the obama campaign has been sitting on these things for quite some time? asked in a different manner, do you think had your candidate, newt gingrich continued down the path he was headed in the primary, that you too would have gotten here. >> well, again, i think we lost the argument about attacking free enterprise. but these things were known back in january 15th. i went on one of the sunday shows and talked about the s.e.c. filings and the inconsistencies then. you know, it seemed a lot to do about nothing then. this may seem to be a lot to do about nothing. let's just talk pure politics here. what the president is successful doing obviously is he does not want to talk about his record. he doesn't have a record to run on. they're going with this thing with bain and it's got the media's attention. they're winning the game. the problem with the romney

campaign and i hope he does, he's supposed to come out and 6:00 tonight and address this. i hope he does in a way that he can put this finally once and all behind him. ultimately, the voters have to decide whether this is a lot to do about nothing or whether it means something. but i think mitt romney gets this behind him, he can shift back to the president's dismal record on the economy and jobs. >> michael, i can tell you -- >> look, the reality is as you're pointing out, the president got a terrible jobs report recently and we've not spent the last ten days focused on that. the narrative has been driven by the bain issue. let me show david corn something. yesterday a romney campaign adviser gave this explanation to politico for what his boss's role at bain was between 1999 and 2002. romney was on the s.e.c. filings because he was still technically the owner but hadn't transferred ownership to other partners. he described him as technically the owner. well, one of the boston globe reporters who worked on the story yesterday explained the contradiction between what the romney camp is saying and what

they're reporting by a number of outlets has uncovered. here it is. >> the globe and other reporting is not saying that he was in the boardroom on a daily basis at bain calling the shots. but certainly that his records show that he was in charge, he had legal responsibility. he was the man with oversight responsibility for the company. how can you retire from a company in 1999 but then remain as president, ceo and chairman? i think that's one of the discrepancies that we're reporting. that's really the crux of our story and romney people, they did ask for a correction. they're not getting one because i mean, they haven't been able to show that any of our reporting was inaccurate. >> david, is an explanation here on behalf of mr. romney that he had to solve a crisis? that it was unexpected unforeseen that he would have to invest himself probably a bad word choice, get active in the olympics when they were in distress. therefore, you know, some details like this became secondary. >> well, you know, he had the

option of saying, i departed, it was chaotic and it took us two or three years to sort things out. that's not what he's saying. he's saying that he had nothing to do -- when i was the first to report that he signed documents, he signed them. it wasn't just that his name was there. he signed documents that enabled $75 million deal to go through. this is months after he supposedly left the company. he declared at his financial disclosure form, i'll have the story up in about an hour or so and put the link on my twitter feed. but he signed a financial disclosure statement saying that in no way -- not in any way was he involved in bain operations after february '99. yet there are these examples again and again of him signing records. now, that's being involved. i'm not saying he's running things day-to-day as the boston globe guy said. but he was involved. but the thing, again, is he's not going to be able to put this behind him. my story yesterday about his chinese deal, investing in a chinese company that's

benefiting from u.s. sourcing, there are going to be lots of these other deals that will be investigated. i got to tell you, mike a lot of this is not coming from chicago. i got that story from somebody that was interested in looking at s.e.c. filings about mitt romney and i developed it myself. so, you know, the obama campaign certainly wants to gin this up. you can keep a hundred reporters busy from now until election day just going over mitt romney's financial records and bain deals and i think rick is right, newt gingrich was right back then. there's a tremendous liability for the republican party here that was never fully explored back when they had a chance. >> rick tyler, i want to ask you about the permanence of the bain attacks. allow me to show you what paul be gala says they are. he told politico, "bain will never go away, never. we may even run ads against bain after the election. whitewater didn't define clinton. he was running on other issues. barack obama didn't run for

president as the jeremiah wright candidate and george w. bush didn't run on his service in the national guard. but romney is a one trick pony. the only calling card he has for the presidency is his time in business." has his chief asset, that meaning governor romney, now turned into a liability? >> clearly, the liability in the last 48 hours. i disagree with my friend, david corn, because i think romney can put this behind him. my hope is at 6:00 tonight he will put it behind. his surrogates and his campaign, he can answer questions satisfactory to the american people. i think once that's done, then obama has no way to go to retread it. this narrative that obama wants is fit for them. most voters may not care about this. they want to know that whoever their next president is does have a real plan for prosperity, a real plan to return jobs and all of this other stuff is sort of a sideshow. the president has been successful in creating a big question mark about romney on

this issue. all he has to do is have the question mark at the margins in a few swing states. what romney's job is to do, and what it's going to be from now to the campaign because barack obama has nothing to run on except mitt romney's record. he can't run his own record. so he has to continue to distract. the challenge for the mitt romney campaign -- how to respond to them. >> thank you, rick tyler. thank you david corn. condoleeza rice for vice president? there's a lot of buzz that romney is considering rice, but is the romney campaign just looking to change the subject away from bain? that's ahead. this is "hardball." the place for politics.

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the drudge report had an eyebrow raising headline last night. the conservative website known to have close ties to the romney campaign reported that a surprise veep choice had emerged as a front runner. former secretary of state condoleeza rice. a few weeks ago, rice delivered a rousing speech at a gathering of big money donors that was greeted enthusiastically by people in the audience. she carries a truckload of political risks. most significant is her time in the bush white house and some of her views on social issues that don't jive with the conservative base of the republican party. for example, she's pro-choice. the fact that it's coming out now and from drudge has led many to wonder what's going on here exactly. nooe nia-malika henderson is a political reporter for the washington post and robert costa is political reporter for the

national review. attention away from bain where that issue appears to have gathered traction in the last couple of weeks? >> it's certainly turned out to be. we're talking about this story that the romney campaign drew lots of suspicion from folks here in washington and skepticism. this is a way to divert attention from what everyone has been talking about this week, bain revelations, mitt romney's tax returns. so it certainly worked out that way too. i think another point to be made is here was a week where mitt romney went before the national association of colored people and was booed and in some ways it's not necessarily coincidental that days later, he comes out with a story or his campaign comes out with a story where it seems to be that they are vetting very high-profile african-american and in some ways sending the signal that the republican party is an inclusive one. which is a message we need to send to independent voters. >> robert, conservative blogger, eric ericsson was quick to dampen the speculation when he wrote, i don't know who is

hitting the crack rock tonight in the rumor mill but condoleeza rice is pro abortion. she worked for george bush for eight years. could conservatives look past the social positions that she has, most notably on the choice issue, because they'd be thrilled to have a legitimate neo con sharing that ticket? >> beyond those drug references, i think he's right. every single romney source i've spoken with today has thrown cold water on this rumor. they say romney is running his veep search like a consulting project. he's meticulous, tim pawlenty, paul ryan that are part of that final list. condi is being floated by those who went to the utah retreat, people who found her speech to be fantastic and they're buzzing to reporters. inside of that boston high command, i don't think condi is a short lister. let's say she was an outside pick like you said. i think social conservatives would have some concerns they may make a stink at the convention in tampa, they could

cause a stir on the floor. but i think the frustration toward the president is so strong that even though romney promised he would pick a pro life candidate for vp. if he picks someone mildly pro choice as rice describes herself, i think the anger towards the president would still give conservative social -- socialists out to the polls in november. >> nia-malika. dr. rice found a supporter on fox. sarah palin said she likes the idea. >> i think that condoleeza rice would be a wonderful vice president and certainly has more experience than our sitting president does today. i would certainly prefer presidential and vice presidential candidate who had that respect for all innocent, precious, purposeful human life and showed that respect via being a pro life candidate. we need to remember, though, that it's not the vice president that would legislate abortion and that would be congress' role.

and we'll keep that in mind. >> nia-malika, this would be interpreted as throwing the long ball, don't you think? this would be like a palin pick in the 2012 cycle. if anything, i've been anticipating that mitt romney will do something very conservative, not politically conservative, but very conservative in terms of the selection. >> that's right. a safe choice. nothing certainly to ostracize the evangelical base, which is so important in terms of energy. i talked to some top evangelicals today and they were talking about this idea that it could be condoleeza rice, because of her stance on life. and it's not even to say they wouldn't show up at the polls, but there wouldn't be energy. there wouldn't be the fire in the belly of the evangelicals. it would send a signal to them and remind them of their reservations about romney around the issue of abortion. i think it's very, very unlikely and i think evangelicals in some ways have been in touch with the romney campaign expressing their disappointment with this idea. again --

>> michael, real quick -- >> this might be an indication of what you're talking about. hang on a second. i want you to see this. governor mike huckabee today said it would be a big mistake for romney to pick condoleeza rice. watch this. >> i think romney would have a real problem because of her weakness on the issues, such as sanctity of life. romney has promised that he will have a pro-life vice president. that was a promise that he made during the campaign because it was expressly asked. anything less than that, i think you're going to see a lot of conservatives -- >> reaffirm their doubts about -- >> it would be a disaster. >> hey, rob, this creates a lot of buzz. does an eventual selection of a tim pawlenty or rob portman then look boring by comparison? >> sure. of course it's boring compared to condoleeza rice. i think romney is comfortable with boring. he's running a steady campaign. not excitable at all.

i think the initial response to condoleezza's pro-choice views is not entirely accurate about how the conservative base would respond. if you read her memoir. first of all, she's a notre dame graduate, went to a catholic high school. she's family oriented though she does not have a family of her own, she grew up in a strong household, strong parents, taught her well. she has a great story to tell. i spoke to a republican operative today. they like condi's story. they don't think she'll be picked but like her story. she could craft a narrative that would appeal to social conservatives. i think you're right, romney is looking at someone midwestern, evangelical, someone comfortable with the base. you have pawlenty. the only thing against portman is his bush experience. they bring the same person a to the ticket. >> i think you're right. nia-malika henderson, rob costa, thanks. up next, separated at birth. politicians who look like disney characters. that's next on the sideshow. if you want to follow me on twitter, you need to figure out how to spell smerconish. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. ♪

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governor of maine blasted president obama's health care plan saying quote, you must buy health insurance or pay the new gestapo, the irs. that's right hitler's secret police during the holocaust. he plater apologized but talking with a local reporter yesterday, he swivelled from backing off his comments to doubling down. >> what i'm trying to say is that the holocaust was a horrific crime against humanity and, frankly, i would never want to see that repeated. maybe the irs is not quite as bad yet. >> so you're saying the irs is headed in the direction of the gestapo? do you have a sense of what the gestapo actually did during world war ii? >> yeah they killed a lot of people. >> the irs is heading in the direction of killing a lot of people? >> yeah. >> are you serious? >> yes, very serious. >> just as incredulous as that

radio host, no surprise the duo caused more uproar and the governor issued a new apology for his quote, insensitivity to the word gestapo. that seems like an understatement. don't you think? next, just as soon as these words came out of rick santorum's mouth in march, we knew it would come back to bite him down the line. >> why would we put someone up who is uniquely, pick any other republican in the country, he is the worst republican in the country to put up against barack obama. >> santorum was in iowa this week and a local reporter asked him about the whole worst republican argument. and here's what he said. just because i said he would be the worst person to square up against barack obama in an election doesn't mean that he wouldn't be far better than barack obama if he was elected. there's a head scratcher for you. what a way to set the stage for santorum's first campaign event for mitt romney scheduled in pennsylvania this weekend.

team romney may be floating the name condi in their search for a vp but it was another member of the bush 43 team that had romney's back last night. dick cheney hosted a fundraiser for the candidate in his home state of wyoming. in addition to the contingent of donors, there were protesters on the scene. according to the l.a. times, one man wearing a darth vader mask held a sign with an arrow pointing to the direction of cheney's house that said dinner on the titanic. another sign pointed the 1% towards the golf complex and 99% towards the grand teton national park. any pictures to commemorate the evening? no. the event was closed to the press and one possible reason is that cheney left office with a 13% approval rating. a snapshot of the duo might not be the best selling point. finally, ever watched a classic disney movie and said, hey that character reminds me of someone? well, the folks at the huffington post did some matchups. let's look at some highlights. all personalities aside.

barney frank, look for his look alike, think goofy but loyal companion, how about mr. smee from peter pan. all the congressman needs is that hat and it's a done deal. then there's sarah palin. we've seen this snapshot before. her disney twin transitions from ladylike to the wild ways of her husband when they get married. jane porter from tarzan. i guess we could say they both went rogue. next it's charlie rangel, democrat from new york. hint, his best frebt is literally the light of his life. give it up for cogs worth from beauty and the beast. best buddy to lumiere. lastly, ron paul, his disney doppelganger is anything but fun-loving. he hid the main character in a church bell tower for years after being tasked with raising him. it's claude frollo from the hunchback of notre dame. that one takes the cake. up next, president obama says he needs to do a better job selling what he's done. telling the american people a story that helps us understand

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here's what's happening. george zimmerman is asking for a new judge because he says the current judge is bias. this is the second request for sandusky who's accused of killing unarmed trayvon martin. kerry kennedy was arrested earlier for driving under the influence of drugs. and ralph lauren says future olympic uniforms will be made in the usa. the current uniforms made by ralph lauren are made in china. back to "hardball."

welcome back to "hardball." president obama took an opportunity to pass judgment on his own record in an interview with charlie rose on cbs. the president spoke about where he's fallen short during his first term in office. >> the mistake of my first couple of years was thinking that this job was just about getting the policy right. and that's important. but the nature of this office is also to tell a story to the american people that gives them a sense of unity and purpose and optimism, especially during tough times. >> mitt romney then hit obama with this statement. quote, president obama believes that millions of americans have lost their homes, their jobs,

and their livelihood because he failed to tell a good story. being president is not about telling stories. being president is about leading and president obama has failed to lead. no wonder americans are losing faith in his presidency. joining me now is democratic strategist steve mcmahon author of "my father at 100" ron reagan. ron, nobody better than the gipper who was able to do that which the president acknowledges he's been unable to do in his first couple of years in office. your thoughts? >> well, there might be a variety of reasons why he's been less than successful at telling his story as he put it. you can always blame the staff. of course, there might be personal reticence on his part. george h.w. bush was famously averse to using the i-word. there may be a little of that. it might be that the republicans put the white house on the defensive. you remember when he made the call on osama bin laden and announced that we had gotten bin laden in a low key kind of way. the republicans immediately jumped on him and accused him of taking a victory lap and

doing unseemly things and politicizing. it might be that the media is not giving him enough credit for telling the story that he has told. i don't disagree that he hasn't done a good enough job but not enough credit for telling a story. when the president comes out and says we passed this bill and here are a lot of the good things it's going to do, it doesn't make the news the way the president is a communist and he's going to give us death panels -- and by the way i'm wearing a funny hat. that tends to lead the news. >> steve mcmahon, he did a good job telling stories in 2008 and seems to have lost the mojo on substantive matters. let's go through a couple of them. health care. where was the mistake in communication relative to health care? >> i think the republicans got out and framed it effectively and quickly. explaining to the american people all the benefits of health care reform. frankly, one of the other things is they should have explained how health care reform is partly about health care reform but

also partly getting america on a better track financially and economically because health care costs were dragging down our economy and our economy can't be strong and successful in the future if that were to continue. so one of the things i think they didn't do enough of is connecting the dots. they're starting to connect the dots now. they did a lot of telling people what they did. they didn't do quite as much telling people why they did it and why it was important and why it mattered to everyone. i think that's a lesson that -- >> ron reagan, would you put the auto bailout on this list of substantive matters where the president could be taking credit and selling better? >> yes, absolutely. he needs to talk about it. would we rather not have a gm or chrysler here in the united states? would we rather those jobs just didn't exist anymore? yes, he needs to blow his horn about this. but he also needs to not just talk about his story and where he wants to take the country and the good things that he managed to do. he also needs to tell the opposition's story. the republican party now has thoroughly jumped the shark.

they are ripe for ridicule and satire. barack obama ought to hire some guys from the harvard lampoon, stick them in the basement of the white house and have them nothing but writing jokes about republicans and mitt romney. you couldn't make this stuff up. >> steve mcmahon, the president doesn't get credit for a tax cut that he was responsible for. i think another great example, i mentioned it here on "hardball" a couple of nights ago, where he's not sold it. >> he hasn't sold it. republicans are blocking it. they don't seem to be paying a price at all. you're absolutely right. the economic things that he's done, to some degree people are aware of, but they don't always have a positive impression of those things. because he hasn't been as effective as he'd like to be in telling a story about why those things matter. in detroit, they have gm today and an auto industry. it's important for america to make things. people understand that. it's important for manufacturing jobs to be in this country and not just in china and india. people understand that. but connecting those dots is something that politicians, knot

just barack obama but many politicians have trouble doing. they're very good at saying what they did. they're very bad at sometimes articulating why it matters to folks and why folks should care about it and appreciate it more. >> president obama acknowledged his oratory prowess during the 2008 campaign and how things have changed since then. watch. when i ran everybody said you can give a great speech, but can you actually manage the job? in my first two years, i think the notion was, you know, he's been juggling and managing a lot of stuff. but where is the story that tells us where he's going? i think that was a legitimate criticism. >> ron reagan, is part of the problem for the president that it's easier to control the message when you're the candidate? everyone looks to you. but now in office, you have portfolio with portfolio come lots of surrogates. now both in the white house and outside the white house that it's hard to manage the message? >> to some extent that is correct.

but you've got the bully pulpit also. the president doesn't seem to have understood from the get-go that you have to be a salesman too. telling the story as he seems to indicate in this interview is part of the job. i mean, it isn't just being a technocrat and getting the policy right. i mean, you can kind of hire people to do that. but you're the leader. you need to lead and tell the story. you need to inspire. i think he gets that now. and i hope we see more of it during the campaign. >> what could he have learned from your father in this regard? getting his message out, telling his story. your father was so effective in this regard. >> again, you have to be the salesman, you have to keep being the salesman. take the health care bill, you have to pre-sell it, say this is what we're going to do and this is why. then you have to sell it when it's happening. okay this is what we're doing and why. but after the legislation passes, you can't stop. you have to continue telling people this is why it was a good

idea. because the other side is going to be trying to undo it the whole time. he hasn't been as aggressive as he needs to be in that regard. >> steve mcmahon, a quick final question if i might. is there a political downside to the president acknowledging to charlie rose that he's been ineffective in this regard? you heard the response from mitt romney. >> i actually don't think there is a political downside. there may be a political upside. one of the things with the president right now is his personal approval rating. the way people feel about him as a person is much higher than his job approval rating. one reason is because of what you just saw. he's not somebody like the previous president unwilling to admit a mistake or ever reconsider a position. he's somebody who is thoughtful and somebody who thinks about these things and learns from them and hopefully tries to improve and be a better person and better president tomorrow than he was yesterday. i think that's a sign of maturity and it's one of the reasons that people really, really want barack obama to succeed. even those people -- >> thank you, steve mcmahon. >> thank you.

>> thank you, steve. thank you, ron reagan. up next, what's next for penn state in the wake of the sandusky report? should the football team get the death penalty? that would be a ban from playing for at least a season. that's ahead. this is "hardball," the place for politics. ♪ hello... ♪ what the... what the... what the... ♪ are you seein' this? ♪ ♪ uh-huh... uh-huh... uh-huh... ♪ ♪ it kinda makes me miss the days when we ♪ ♪ used to rock the microphone ♪ back when our credit score couldn't get us a micro-loan ♪ ♪ so light it up! ♪ even better than we did before ♪ ♪ yeah prep yourself america we're back for more ♪ ♪ our look is slacker chic and our sound is hardcore ♪ ♪ and we're here to drop a rhyme about free-credit-score ♪ ♪ i'm singing free-credit-score-dot-com ♪ ♪ dot-com narrator: offer applies with enrollment in freecreditscore.com.

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we're back. the investigation into the penn state sex abuse scandal provided answers yesterday about who knew what and when. but it also prompts further questions, including will more charges be filed and on the minds of every student, staffer and fan of penn state, could the ncaa punish the school by banning football for a year or more? michael isikoff is nbc's national investigative correspondent and andy staples is a senior writer for si.com, the sports illustrated website. michael, there's quite a funk in state college. i hear from listeners on the radio, people who idolized joe

paterno for decades having a very difficult time now understanding this latest news. >> absolutely, michael. the disclosures relating to paterno were the news in this freeh report. paterno knew is the headline there. he knew about 1998. he followed the investigation into 1998. he was kept apprised of it. and then when it comes to 2001, he was more involved than he had acknowledged. so the significance of 1998 is it cast a whole new light on the events that mcqueary initiated in 2001 when he goes to see paterno and tells him about what he had seen in the shower. it's the second huge red flag and in both cases penn state officials, including paterno, covered it up and i think that's what's so disturbing here and so

problematic for paterno's legacy. >> there's also, michael isikoff, anxiety, i'm sure, as to the future of the football program. >> absolutely. and that really is the next shoe that could drop here. you go back and look at the letter that the ncaa sent to penn state back in november when the first -- when sandusky was arrested, and it's very strong and pointed and asked very tough questions about what kind of institutional controls that penn state had over the figures in the football program and also whether penn state officials involved adhered to all ncaa bylaws including those requiring ethics and honesty. and there's one it cited in that letter about moral values and the need to uphold moral values when you are teaching your people. now, you know, there's been a lot of back and forth about

whether the ncaa would be straying outside its lane here because the transgressions didn't specifically involve the athletic program or people participating in the athletic program, but when you look at the broader context of those questions that the ncaa posed to penn statenovember, it's very clear the direction they're heading. now, penn state at the time said we need time to answer because we were waiting for the results of our internal investigation. the internal investigation -- >> that's over. >> it's in and -- that's right, and penn state confirmed to me today they're now going to prepare a formal response. in fact, the ncaa said yesterday they want a formal response. they now expect one, and they're also going to be hiring a special counsel to this issue. there's no doubt about how huge this is for penn state. $53 million a year in revenue, the football program. yeah, sure, go ahead. >> andy, i want to show you what biz wrote in the daily bee today.

quote, the board should have announced yesterday that the upcoming season of football at penn state would have been cancelled. it would have been a sincere and needed message to the world that the culture would no longer be caught up, and they could have let their football players go elsewhere without the normal period of having to sit out for a year. does that make sense to you? >> no, because penn state is not the only place this could have happened. football is a huge multibillion dollar business at the top level of college athletics. it is a monstrous business. penn state's last reporting period, the 2010-2011 academic year, it may $72 million. that doesn't count other millions that would have come in. that's a huge business, so they're not going to do that. they're not going to voluntarily dismantle the program, but remember, this could have happened at a place like

alabama, this could have happened at a place like auburn, anywhere where football is king. and football is king in a lot of places. this also could have happened in corporate america. this would have happened anywhere where you have millions of dollars floating around because people get into power and they want to keep their positions. i have always asked people to tell me, if joe paterno, tim curley, gary schultz, graham spanier, had gone to the police in 2001, would penn state have played football in 2001? yes, they would have. they weren't doing it to protect the football program. they were doing it to protect their own jobs because while penn state would have played football in 2001, there's a very good chance some of those guys would have been out of a job after that scandal. >> i'm not so sure, though. ifio paterno would have gone in 2001, he wouldn't have been out of a job. michael, my take is different. i come down on the same side of the fence as andy. paterno has passed, sandusky is

in the slammer, curley and schultz are being prosecuted, arguably, spanier will be prosecuted. those who are culpable in this are getting their just do. i don't want to see the merchant in state cheollege who has a ta room and makes money because he has a tap room and benefits off football to suffer. >> that's the issue penn state supporters are going to raise, but on the other side of the coin, you're going to get people who say if the ncaa doesn't react in a situation like this, after citing its bylaws about ethics and integrity and moral values, whien it is going to ac in enforcing those bylaws? here you have the most senior officials in charge of penn state program by their own internal reports findings clearly -- >> all caught up in it.

>> major lapses in it. >> no doubt about it. michael, thank you, as always. >> if they don't ask, when will they? >> andy, thank you for your contribution. when we return, allow me to finish with why i would be a hypocrite if i got upset about the made in china uniforms for team usa. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. f we took tha and reimagined nearly everything in it? gave it greater horsepower and best in class 38 mpg highway... ...advanced headlights... ...and zero gravity seats? yeah, that would be cool. ♪ introducing the completely reimagined nissan altima. it's our most innovative altima ever. nissan. innovation that excites. ♪

let me finish tonight with this. opening ceremonies of the london

olympics are just 14 days away. and as you probably heard, controversy now surrounds the ralph lauren uniforms of team usa. it seems like most of our clothing, the uniforms were made in china. that has caused quite a reaction. especially from politicians. >> today, there are 600,000 vacant manufacturing jobs in this country, and the olympic committee is outsourcing the manufacturing of uniforms to china. that is not just outrageous. it's just plain dumb. i'm calling on the olympic committee to reverse this decision and make sure that american athletes competing in the olympics are competing with labels that say made in america. >> i think they should take all of the uniforms, put them in a big pile, and burn them, and tart all over again. if they have to wear nothing but a singlet that says usa on it painted by hand, that's what they should wear. we have people in the textile industry desperate for jobs. >> the majority leader's words are drawing support while ralph

lauren and the committee are drawing flack. they said it's a privilege to be the outfitter of team usa for the 2012 olympic games. he designed uniforms for the 2010 games in vancouver and the 2008 games in beijing. look, i get the emotional pull of what leader reid said, but i would be a hypocrite to join in. all this talk caused me to look at my own labels today. earlier today, i was wearing a lacoste shirt. it said designed in france and made in peru. my pants right now, romania. the shoes i'm wearing, italy, my sport coat, canada, same as my t-shirt, and my tie is from france. pie boxers were made as the same place as the uniforms, china. the only thing i'm wearing made in america is my shirt. that and my pocket square, which was mamademanhattan. i would suggest thatf