and around the world. and we will continue to free you to do more and focus on what matters. this morning we'll discuss the president's efforts to define his opponent. again the hot topic is mitt romney's tenure at bain capital. is his private sector experience his greatest strength or now a political weakness? with conflicting reports about exactly when romney left the company, the campaign's traded attacks about whether he was there when the firm began to outsource jobs, and whether romney was dishonest about his tenure. >> i think the times in the past are beneath the dignity of the presidency. i think the president needs to rein in his campaign and start talking about the real issues people care about. which relate to our economy. >> a new pretty negative turn in the campaign. so can romney clear the air

about his bain record? we'll have more information about his personal finances and investment accounts and in the end is this what voters care about? with us senior adviser to the romney campaign, ed gillespie. then, the tax fight for the fall. will rates go up? and for whom? the president sets up a fight over the middle class. >> the fate of the tax cuts for the wealthiest americans will be decided by the outcome of the next election. my opponent will fight to keep them in place. i will fight -- >> a debate here this morning with two key senators, assistant democratic leader senator dick durbin of illinois and assistant republican senator jon kyl of arizona. and our political roundtable later, with insights and analysis, including the veepstakes for mr. romney. with us, republican strategist mike murphy. president of the naacp, ben jealous. anti-tax activist grover norquist.

"washington post" associate editor bob woodward and democratic strategist hilary rosen. also this morning, a few minutes with bob costas of nbc sports, on the penn state sex abuse scandal. after this week's devastating report about who knew what, and when. good morning. well you knew it was going to get nasty and here we are in this presidential fight. really the choice is by the fall, is this going to be a campaign that turns on the obama economy? or mitt romney's business record? a week ago we were talking about a bad jobs report for the president. this week, because of the obama team going on the offensive, it's all about romney's bain record. and the president is staying with it on the campaign trail yesterday in virginia. >> he invested companies that have been called pioneers of outsourcing.

i don't want a pioneer in outsourcing. i want some in-sourcing. >> the response now, the adviser of the romney campaign ed gillespie. good to have you back. >> thanks for having me. >> so this period of time that matters, 1999 to 2001, and the question of mitt romney's tenure at bain is really what's been at issue. an issue that's been made by the obama campaign. the huffington post described the issue this way, the headline romney's signature appears on bain sec filings during time he says he left bain, between '99 and 2001, mitt romney, then ceo of bain capital, signed at least six documents that the private equity firm filed with the securities and exchange commission. can you understand the confusion here about when he was at bain and when he wasn't? >> yes. and the fact is, he took a leave of absence from bain to go and run the olympics in salt lake city. as you remember, at the time the

international olympic committee was going to pull the olympics from the united states, which would have been a huge embarrassment for our country. there was corruption. it was poorly run. it was in chaos. and they needed someone of mitt romney's stature and leadership ability to come in and save it. so he took a leave of absence from bain and left a life that he loved to help a country that he loves more, to save the olympics. and he was not responsible for day-to-day decisions, did not participate in day-to-day decisions of the management of the company at that time. he was on leave. so, as former sec chairman harvey pitt was quoted in the story about this, it is standard, though, to, while you're on leave, to sign those documents for the sec he was still ceo and had shares, but he wasn't responsible for management. and that's, you know, that's the bottom line. >> well, he was still financially linked to bain. and of course, a lot of his fortune is due to his time at bain. even when he was on leave, does he stand by business decisions that were made by the firm he created? >> he actually retired retro actively at that point. he ended up not going back to the firm after a time in salt lake city.

so he was actually retired from bain. but bain's a good company. it's been very successful. it's helped create a lot of jobs. and the fact is, private sector experience is a beneficial thing, would be beneficial in the white house, than the obama campaign -- >> but he stands behind the -- >> i don't -- >> -- about call centers or outsourcing which in a lot of circles is considered good business? >> in terms of stands by them, i don't know what you mean. they weren't his decisions. he wasn't there at the time that those decisions were made. bain is a good company. and, in fact, as you know, a lot of democrats, obama folks take a lot of money from bain because they think it's a good company. it's only when they're distorting mitt romney's record, for example, as has been proven inaccurate by "the washington post" and independent fact checkers this notion 459 while he was at bain capital governor romney, you know, shut down american jobs and moved them overseas. it's patently false. it's a lie.

and it's sad to see the obama campaign reduced to this kind of, you know, these kinds of reckless, baseless charges. >> does mitt romney believe that outsourcing is a legitimate decision for companies to make, to make them stronger companies more efficient companies? >> david, you know, what mitt romney believes is that we need a plan to make america more prosperous and for people to invest in the united states. >> i understand. but this is a particular business -- >> but it's linked to particular federal policies. what we see now is the highest corporate tax rate in the world in the united states of america. that has taken place under president obama's leadership. excessive regulations. the threat of punitive taxes that are -- >> i understand all that. but i'm asking a different kind of question. outsourcing is a tough political topic. but if you are a business man,

there's a real need for outsourcing jobs. what the president was talking about there is taking a politically charged issue -- >> because of our policy. >> that's what i'm saying mitt romney is someone who is in the private sector who understands pit so would he not stand by the practice of outsourcing? >> what he believes is that american companies and private shareholders and ceos should be free in our economy to make decisions. what we need to do as a policy is to make policies that make those decisions easier to say, i'm going to invest here in the united states. i'm not going to move my jobs overseas. the obama policies are forcing jobs overseas, and not only, by the way, in terms of making private investors look for investment overseas as opposed to the united states, but in taking american tax dollars and the stimulus package and putting it into companies and jobs, creating jobs in china. and finland. and mexico. and denmark. the president is the outsourcer in chief with our taxpayers' dollars. >> just one more try at this. does he believe that outsourcing is a legitimate business practice? >> what he believes -- >> in the creation of a healthy economy? >> we can do it a fourth time if you'd like. what he believes is that american companies should be free, when you have a free economy, to make decisions that are in the interest of their shareholders. and what we need to do is make those decisions more attractive to investors here in the united states, rather than make them more attractive to go overseas which is what the obama policies

do. >> but clearly he's sensitive about the outsourcing issue because it's a politically charged issue. in that same vein does he have a problem with somebody who ran the olympics before with olympic uniforms not being made in america, being manufactured in china, congress is taking this up now, seems to be a bipartisan sense of outrage. where is mitt romney on this? >> he believes that, you know, we shouldn't politicize the olympics. believes that, you know, we should stand by our athletes and make sure that they have the best experience possible. i know that the olympics get politicized. but -- >> is it okay for uniforms to be made in china? is this just -- >> what i understand is that it was an american company that subcontracted. >> but does he have a problem with that? >> i -- i don't know what his response to that was. i didn't see his -- that he was asked about it or not. >> he says no comment. but as somebody who ran the olympics does he not have a comment on whether uniforms -- >> i think what he said was that, you know, we shouldn't politicize the olympics and that, you know, this is an american company that contracted out.

the fact is, again, we need to make investment here in the united states more attractive, and make manufacturing in the united states more attractive. the underlying policies that make it more attractive to subcontract out to china are at the root of the problem here and the root of that problem is president obama's not being tough enough on china and the currency manipulation, which governor romney has said he will on day one begin to address in a serious manner. >> let me talk about taxes. we compiled a list of former presidents, and the average of the tax returns they released over the years, you can go from president obama, mccain, kerry, bush, a lot more than the two years that mitt romney is proposing to release. why not be more of an open book and release more tax returns, as his father did? as previous presidential candidates have done? >> as you know, the standard of releasing fully two years of returns, which goes above what the law requires, was a standard that senator john mccain had adhered to as the republican nominee in the last presidential campaign.

it's the same as senator kerry adhered to with the democratic nominee in the election before that. and the fact is, that governor romney is putting -- has put out already 2010 and will put out 2011 before this election. so, you know, very transparent. it's ironic coming from a white house that has proven itself to be not transparent in its policies, and for example why they're hiding behind claims of executive privilege and that kind of thing. >> well, that's a separate issue. i won't get into that today. back in 1994 his own standard when he was running against ted kennedy was the following. here was the head line from the boston globe, romney chides kennedy on taxes. mitt romney yesterday challenged kennedy to disclose the state and federal taxes to prove he has nothing to hide. romney said he would disclose his own state and federal taxes for the last three years on the very day that kennedy turns over his taxes for public scrutiny. this is hardly new to mr. romney to make taxes an issue. he did it against kennedy. and even when he was running for the senate he was willing to release three years.

but now he's running for presidency he says two and nothing more. >> well, again, it's the standard for the last republican nominee, the last democratic nominee, and the real issue here, david, is what are we going to do to make it where more americans are filing their income taxes because they have a job? household income has gone down $4,300 since he took office. we have a record 41st month of unemployment rates above 8% under this president as a result of his policies. 500,000, more than 500,000 fewer americans are working today, and millions have less to work for, we've got 23 million americans either unemployed or underemployed or left the workforce entirely. that's what the voters are focused on. and i understand the desire of the obama campaign to try to shift attention away from his dismal record in office because they can't run on the record. as he said in his own speech in accepting the democratic nomination in denver, you know, when you can't run on your record you try to make campaigns about little things and they hold up these shiny objects and

frankly he spent a lot of time on shows like these talking about that instead of the fact that, for example, if you're a middle class worker in today's economy you're facing layoffs. if you're a campaign donor to barack obama you're getting payoffs. and that's the nature of this economy where he is trying to, you know, make it harder for middle-class workers to get and keep jobs and makes it easier for his campaign donors to get government subsidies. i'm going to leave it there. ed gillespie thank you very much. >> thank you. >> coming up, response from a key obama ally in the senate, senator dick durbin. he will response to mr. gillespie here. plus the future of the bush era tax cuts. that's a big debate as well important the fall. also joining me the assistant republican leader in the senator, jon kyl. durbin and kyl will square off. we'll also get their thoughts on this olympic-style outrage in washington over the uniforms being made in china. a little bit later on, bob costas will be here to talk about the penn state scandal and the fallout from this week's freeh report. it's all coming up.

it's all coming up. [ female announcer ] the power of green coffee extract is now in our new starbucks refreshers™ -- a breakthrough in natural energy. made with real fruit, starbucks refreshers™ are delicious low calorie drinks you can feel good about. ♪ rethink how you re-energize. ♪ get a boost of natural energy with a new starbucks refreshers™, in three ways. natural energy from green coffee extract, only from starbucks. but they haven't experienced extra strength bayer advanced aspirin. in fact, in a recent survey, 95% of people who tried it agreed that it relieved their headache fast. visit fastreliefchallenge.com today for a special trial offer.

[ engine revving ] ♪ hey, hey, hey ♪ [ tires screech ] [ male announcer ] with fuel economy that's best in class and better acceleration than camry and accord, you'll wish you had the road to yourself. [ tires screech ] it's our most innovative altima ever. nissan. innovation that excites. ♪

coming up here, your taxes depend on your vote in november. so are your rates going to go up or not? joining me this morning for a special debate on the future of those bush-era tax cuts democratic senator durbin and republican senator jon kyl. they're up next. after this brief commercial break. card, verizon 4g lte phone. the global ready one ? yeah, but you won't need... ♪

hajimemashite. hajimemashite. hajimemashite. you guys like football ? thank you so much. i'm stoked. you stoked ? totally. ... and he says, "under the mattress." souse le matelas. ( laughter ) why's the new guy sending me emails from paris ? paris, france ? verizon's 4g lte devices are global-ready. plus, global data for just $25. only from verizon.

♪ i want to go ♪ i want to win [ breathes deeply ] ♪ this is where the dream begins ♪ ♪ i want to grow ♪ i want to try ♪ i can almost touch the sky [ male announcer ] even the planet has an olympic dream. dow is proud to support that dream by helping provide greener, more sustainable solutions from the olympic village to the stadium. solutionism. the new optimism.™ ♪ this dream

back now with senator jon kyl of arizona, and senator dick durbin of illinois. and senator durbin, let me start with you. i want to pick up on this fight in the campaign this week over bain. this is the spokeswoman for the obama campaign, stephanie cutter, bringing the charge against mitt romney over these signatures on these sec documents, after he said he left bain. listen to this. >> either mitt romney, through his own words, and his own signature, was misrepresenting his position at bain to the sec, which is a felony, or he was misrepresenting his position at bain to the american people to avoid responsibility for some of the consequences of his investments. and if that's the case, if he was lying to the american people, then that's a real character and trust issue that the american people need to take very seriously.

>> senator, politics is a rough sport. was that over the top? was that inappropriate? >> i can tell you the documents that were filed with the sec, with the signature of mitt romney, are completely confusing. they claim that for three years he was the sole shareholder, sole director, ceo and president of bain capital, and he said he was gone from the scene. but we need to get down to the bottom line here, david. why is mitt romney running away from his company, bain capital, like a scalded cat? because there is abundant evidence that under bain capital, they were exporting american jobs to low-wage countries. and he doesn't want to be associated with it. >> but to suggest that he was -- but to suggest that he committed a felony is not over the top, even by campaign standards? >> i can tell you, the standards for false filings for the sec are a matter of fact. but here is the bottom line. mitt romney can clear the air this afternoon on this whole issue by making a more complete disclosure of economic information.

right now he has failed to disclose information which every candidate of both political parties running for president has made over the last 36 years. and i might say to my colleague, senator kyl, if we have one year's income tax, even two year's income tax from mitt romney, that fails to meet the minimum requirement that republican senators insisted for every obama nominee for the cabinet that they had to produce. >> all right, we'll get to that in a minute. but senator kyl, weigh in on this bain issue. you heard ed gillespie here saying he was effectively -- he was on a leave of absence to run the olympics. what do you think of your colleague's thoughts on that? >> i think ed gillespie is right. if you look at the fact checkers, i look at "the washington post." they say obama is blowing smoke. they give him three pinocchios.

in other words he is fibbing. he's misrepresenting the facts about bain capital. i think the important point that people are missing here is the final point that ed gillespie made. and that is that the reason that businesses find that they have to find employees in other states or even sometimes in other countries to do their work is, that this administration is making it so hard to do business in the united states, and be competitive -- >> but let's be real about this, companies began to outsource well before barack obama became president of the united states. >> that's very true. >> do you consider it a legitimate business practice that should not be politicized? >> when -- let's look at the symptom versus the cause. the symptom of the problem is outsourcing. the cause is when the government taxes businesses too much, when it regulates businesses too much, and when it creates too much uncertainty as to things like obama care. the outsourcing is accelerated because of those things. and speaking of the olympics, it's a little bit like the president saying all right, i

want you to get out there and compete you runners and beat all the other countries but in the meantime wear this big anchor around your neck, which is the taxes and the regulation, as gillespie pointed out. we have the highest tax rate of all of the industrialized countries. that makes us very uncompetitive. >> are you speaking about the olympics? are you concerned about our athletes wearing a uniforms that were made in china? >> again, i go back to -- let's don't politicize the olympics. let's look at why an american business felt it hood to buy those products, because they were cheaper than the ones he could make here. it's because of government policies here that make it more expensive to do business in the united states. >> so you're okay with ralph lauren? >> i'm not going to politicize it. i want to talk about the issue. the underlying issue is why did we make it so hard for american businesses to compete that they have to buy things from abroad? >> senator, go ahead. >> david, let me tell you, the bottom line is this, the outsourcing of jobs by bain capital to low-wage countries is an embarrassment to mitt romney and he's trying to distance himself from his own company that made millions of dollars for him. i would say to senator kyl, i hope that this week the senate republicans will join the democrats in supporting the measure that senator debbie stabenow of michigan, general brown of ohio will cover that eliminates the incentive, the tax incentive that we have to outsource jobs and rewards american companies for bringing

jobs back to america. it would be great to see the republicans join us in a bipartisan effort to create a tax incentive to bring jobs home. instead, they're making excuses. now, i have to say that mr. gillespie and my friend jon kyl have failed to answer your question. outsourcing, unfortunately, costs good american jobs. we need a president focusing on creating jobs in america, not a former governor whose company specialized in exporting jobs overseas. >> i do agree we need a president that's focused on creating jobs in america. and you don't do that by increasing taxes on the very people -- >> let's talk -- i want to talk about taxes. what senate democrats would like to do, what the president would like to do is extend the bush tax cuts for those making less than $200,000, or $250,000, as a family and then taxes would go up on people above that. back in 2010, when this issue first came up, this is what president obama said back then. watch. >> i am just listening to the consensus among people who know

the economy best. and what they will say is that if you either increase taxes, or significantly lowered spending when the economy remains somewhat fragile, that that would have a de-stimulative effect and potentially you'd see a lot of folks losing business, more folks potentially losing jobs, that would be a mistake when the economy has not fully taken off. >> well, that was 2010, senator durbin. if it was a bad idea to raise taxes in a down economy then, why is it a good idea to raise taxes in a down economy now? >> i think the president has drawn the line in the proper way. he believes, and i agree, that the top 2% of wage earners in america should pay their fair share. that's what this comes down to. and if we extend the bush tax cuts, as senator kyl and others have called for, it will add $800 billion to our deficit --

>> but senator he wasn't willing to do that two years ago. he was concerned about the economy. >> he was concerned and still is. we have seen 28 straight months of job creation in the private sector. we want to continue it, and build on it. and we believe that asking the top 2% of wage earners in america to pay their fair share of taxes is not going to kill the economy. instead it's going to make sure we move forward reduction of our deficit. the republicans have failed to explain even one of them how we can continue to give tax cuts to the wealthiest people in our country, and realistically, honestly reduce the deficit. >> senator kyl? >> we're not talking about giving tax cuts to anyone. all we're asking is don't raise taxes on all americans. and especially don't raise taxes on the people who create the business. when you say that the high-income earners, the top 20% pay 90% of the taxes, what should they pay? 99%? these are the people who have enough money to invest in

businesses, and to create jobs. and the problem with the tax cuts -- or tax increase that the president is proposing is that it falls directly on those job creators. 53% of the income raised would come from those businesses. and they employ 25% of all of the people that are working in the united states. >> do you think that the campaign will settle this tax issue one way or the other? >> i'm -- i suspect -- i hope it will. and i -- >> by that i mean if president obama is re-elected, do you think that republicans will accept a reality where they say, you know what, if we're going to deal with the debt we're going to have to have a balanced approach, some taxes are going to have to go up if spending is going to come down, if entitlements are going to be reformed? >> well i'm believing that republicans, first of all, will be in control of the senate. that means that both the house and the senate will reject these kinds of job-killing tax increases that the president's proposing. i think that will make it more difficult for the president to propose what he is doing now, and go back to where he was a year and a half ago when he said it would be a blow to the economy to increase taxes on anyone.

he was right then, and then we had a 3% gdp growth. now we're under 2%. >> senator durbin, before you go this morning. i want to ask you about your colleague in the house, congressman jesse jackson jr. a lot of mystery about what his condition is. what is going on with him? and will he return? >> i don't have any inside information here. i called reverend jackson, his father, this week, and said that our prayers are with his son's family. we want him to get well and get home soon. i think my colleague set the right standard by talking about his rehabilitation and the progress he's making. i hope very, very soon that congressman jackson can tell us what he's facing. i think the people in illinois and this country are going to embrace anything he's doing to put himself back in a good, strong position to return to his family and to congress. >> do you suspect his political career is over or not? >> oh, no, i wouldn't say that at all. i don't know what his specific challenge is. but let me tell you, members of congress in both parties, men and women, go through a lot of

trials, physical and mental trials and they emerge from them stronger. american people and the people of illinois will stand behind a congressman who is facing his challenges head-on and they'll support him. >> senator durbin, senator kyl, thank you both very much. coming up here we'll get some insight from our political roundtable as they get into this issue of defining mitt romney's business background. talk about the politics with our roundtable coming up. th our roundtable coming up. why should our wallets tell us what our favorite color is? every room deserves to look great. and every footstep should tell us we made the right decision. so when we can feel our way through the newest, softest, and most colorful options... ...across every possible price range... ...our budgets won't be picking the style. we will. more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot.

make room for savings with $37 basic installation on martha stewart living and platinum plus carpet.

just $14.99. start with soup, salad and cheddar bay biscuits then choose one of 7 entrees plus dessert! four perfect courses, just $14.99. come into red lobster and sea food differently. four perfect courses, just $14.99. this is new york state. we built the first railway, the first trade route to the west, the greatest empires. then, some said, we lost our edge. well today, there's a new new york state. one that's working to attract businesses and create jobs. a place where innovation meets determination... and businesses lead the world.

the new new york works for business. find out how it can work for yours at thenewny.com.

we're back now with our political roundtable. joining me the associate editor of "the washington post," bob woodward. republican strategist and columnist for "time" magazine, mike murphy. democratic strategist hilary rosen. president of americans for tax reform, grover norquist. and president and ceo of the naacp, ben jealous. welcome to all of you. so much to discuss. but let's talk about the battle over bain, that's become the issue, and mike murphy and hilary rosen, here are the dueling ads. this is what the obama team put out first on this outsourcing issue, and then how romney responded. we'll play a little bit of each. >> running for governor, mitt romney campaigned as a job creator. >> i know how jobs are created. >> but as a corporate raider, he shipped jobs to china and mexico.

as governor he did the same thing. outsourcing state jobs to india. >> the obama outsourcing attacks, misleading, unfair, and untrue. there was no evidence that mitt romney shipped jobs overseas. candidate obama lied about hillary clinton. >> so shame on you, barack obama. >> but america expects more from a president. obama's dishonest campaign. another reason america has lost confidence in barack obama. >> okay. strategists, how is this playing, mike? >> well it's the obama game plan which is to use television money in the summer to just try to ruin mitt romney so there's no debate on economic performance. but i think what both campaigns are going to want in a few weeks when they both knock each other silly with these more or less trivial issues. if you don't like outsourcing you've got to fire the president and the entire congress. it's been going on for a long time in the global economy. hopefully one campaign will understand if they move to some bigger ideas going forward, not just small ball stuff, cynicism from the obama campaign, this lack of a plan in terms of an exciting economic plan from romney, that will be the advantage position to get to in the election.

>> hilary, how do you see it? >> i think we're losing some context here. because the context, of course, is that mitt romney actually didn't have a very good job creation record as governor of massachusetts and is running around the country saying i'm going to be a great job creating president because i have all this business experience. well, we know from herbert hoover that business experience doesn't necessarily mean a great economy. so, we have to look at his record. but mitt romney doesn't want us to look at his job creating record and that's exactly what's going on. so, no wonder the american people are confused. when you look at the president's ads, he's actually talking about those periods of time when thank you mitt romney is saying he wasn't even involved in bain, and so what's really the truth? mitt romney can clear this up. dick durbin was exactly right this morning. all mitt romney has to do is come forward with all the truth and we'll be able to move past this. >> but the reality is that in politics, everything gets politicized. and all these decisions. and bob woodward, the idea of when he was at bain.

when he left bain, is perhaps less material than whether, you know, somebody who was in private equity will or will not stand behind some of, you know, decisions that are made in the global economy. including outsourcing. as much as it gets uncomfortable and political campaigns. >> well, mike murphy is right. you would haveo fire everyone in the congress, and all ceos. because outsourcing is a reality. i think glen kessler, the fact checker of "the washington post," has done excavation here and demonstrated pretty conclusively that romney didn't have his fingerprints on this particular period. and people who were relying on sec documents know the value of sec documents. i mean, they are often camouflages for what's really going on. so that's not really the issue. i think the issue here is about all this money, personal money, that romney has, that we don't really know what the trustee is doing, and that's a couple of

hundred million dollars -- and that's a lot of money. people who worked hard to get their money, love their money, and if he's going to be president of the united states, we're going to really have to have full transparency. >> well, grover, you know, you've heard this week, mitt romney said look, if you're explaining something like this you're actually losing. wouldn't he do better to say look, i am very wealthy. it is complex. there are a lot of investments. have a look at all of this and now we can get back to talking about jobs? >> look, president obama is attackage him on this sort of thing, even "the washington post" said it's a dishonest attack. so why is obama doing it? obama is doing it because he doesn't want to talk about having the lousiest recovery since world war ii. people are leaving the job market rather than moving into it. you know, reagan's recovery had about 7 million, 8 million more people getting jobs at this

point than 37 months into the recovery. this is the lousiest recovery, worse than ford's, worse than all of the recoveries we've ever had. if you're obama, any conversation, let's talk about tax returns, let's talk about bain, please let's not talk about, if you're a successful president and you run for re-election you talk about what you did. you talk about morning in america. you invite people to talk about your record. obama's doing something other than look at what obama has done for four years. >> ben jealous, politico last year, august of 2011, what the obama plan would be. destroy romney. this is part of what they wrote, the second aspect of the campaign to define romney is his record as ceo of bain, a firm that was responsible for both creating and eliminating jobs.

obama officials intend to frame romney as the very picture of greed in the great recession, a sort of political gordon gekko. in other words, both things can be true. you can excavate his record at bain and you can also be distracting from a slow economy that you're presiding over. >> what we need to get back to talking about is how did we get out of the great depression? and what can we do to get out of where we are right now. we're kind of boxed in as a country. you know, right now, this president should be pushing forward further go talking about job creation. quite frankly romney should be forced to talk about what are one, two, three acts of creating jobs. he's not talking about it. he said look we all are suffering from 14.4% joblessness or 14.2%. but he wouldn't go further and say this is how. this is what i'll do. >> right and that is an important point. what is he a man with a plan and what is the plan? >> well, and that's the problem right now. the plan that we've seen from mitt romney is just mostly significant tax cuts for the wealthy. president obama actually has put forth multiple plans that the

republican congress has blocked. so, the only thing we have now is a choice. this conversation may not be what everybody wants, but we do have a choice between these two candidates. and when you look at something like what mitt romney has done, hiding his taxes, there's -- you know, if every american hid their money and invested it in overseas tax havens, where would this economy be? >> well, but -- >> mike, as -- when mitt romney does his vice presidential search or is he only going to look at two years of vice presidential candidate taxes? is that what you would recommend he do? >> honestly i'm not in the trivia business. i'm in the how do you take away the economic pain that americans are under right now business. and i agree with you, we've got to get a bigger campaign with bigger ideas. the sad thing is that the obama campaign is so bankrupt on economic policy they've been reduced to running this thing like it's a local congressional race. which is just ruin the character of your opponent with negative television ads. they spend the record for negative tv four years ago. they're going for the gold this time. i think the countries's going to reject it. you can't run a biography anymore. that's mitt's weakness because the ads destroy biography. so it's going to come down to a jump ball or who's got the better forward plan in the economy. i'll take romney in that fight. but i think the sooner it forms

the better. >> let's fact check. hilary says the president has these economic plans that the house has rejected. the house of representatives has been run by republicans. the democrats run the senate. it was the democrats in the senate who voted unanimously against obama's own budget. so the idea that somehow he has these great ideas the republicans are stopping, his budget is so lousy the democrats in the house and the democrats in the senate voted it down. the president said please, republican house and senate, pass my tax bill. it was reid who stopped the vote from taking place. the democrats rejecting his entire budget has been voting down by every democrat. the republicans are upset by that. >> senate rules. we've got to get beyond this filibuster in the senate and actually be age to bring real bills to the floor. >> reid -- >> democrats oppose -- >> democrats oppose because what this requires is leadership and people willing to make tough

votes. when the house republicans refused to make the tough votes, the democrats in the senate said wait a minute, why are we falling on our sword here? that's exactly president obama said for every dollar in new revenue he has proposed, he's proposed $4 in spending cuts. republicans have not. >> becomes a circus. only the presidential campaign is going to lead the country and get a mandate to do something. so the responsibility is on them. it's on mitt romney to do better than what we got right now. >> there ask a sense when i talk to people that it is true, that the trivial is becoming so big that we're losing sight of some sort of balanced approach on taxes and spending, immigration reform, infrastructure for the country. big things. that it takes to get the country moving again. are we going to hit back? >> and listen to this partisan squabbling.

i mean, it's sincere but it's all about look what they didn't do. oh, look what the democrats didn't do. look what the republicans didn't do. and it's true, where is the plan? the one, two, three in a credible way from one side or the other. and i think -- >> but it's there. the republicans in the house have passed 24 jobs creating bills and a budget. the democrats in the senate have not passed those bills and they haven't done a budget. is there not coequally wrong -- >> but one group is actually governing and reid has not -- >> but the experience -- >> what we have is profound ideological and philosophical differences that make washington basically totally dysfunctional. then -- well let me ask you this to be a little counterintuitive here, is the issue even as a democrat for mitt romney that he needs a better counterpunch? let's get back into the blocking and tackling of campaigning? is that what this week proves? because the obama team is going to be very aggressive. they learned from bush '04 they're going to run that hard-core contrast election. >> when it came to our convention this week what we were actually looking for is

that jack kemp speech. you know, somebody to actually say look, i have looked at the problems. here's some solutions i can agree on. this is how we're going to deal with the credit crunch facing small businesses. this is how we're going to actually break open contracting as a policy for small businesses to create jobs. you can do all this as a republican. you can do all this as a bain capital guy but you've got to bring some specifics, talk one, two, three, you've got to make the 99% actually feel like you think about their problems and have real solutions that will help fix it. >> well i think the practical political problem this has, you could have been frozen in ice in the north pole five years ago and they saw you out, what do you think romney's senses are? you've got to deal with bain. it's not like this wasn't coming. and i have been surprised that the campaign seems to have been sloppy and defensive. they don't seem to have their bane act together. i think they ought to go on offense. what did romney do? people don't understand bain. they understand the demagogic attacks on television.

they don't know he managed pension funds, he was paid to be successful investing money for people who really cared for that money because it paid for scholarships, universities, fireman's pensions whatever it might be. they've got to get in and have this bain fight out in a nondefensive way and then we can move on to other things. because it is jammed up right now and they've got to break through it. >> along that same sort of less partisan squabbling line. the president has to get back to the inspiration and give, tell us why he what he's going to be doing for the next four years outside of the echo chamber of the choice. this will be a choice, but he -- it does require him to work harder against this partisan bickering and trying -- >> i want to get a break in bob. i want to come back and talk more about what the responsibilities in this kind of the demands are on president obama, and his comments about that. we'll be back with our roundtable. we're also going to talk about their top summer reads, as well. which we thought you'd find interesting. a little bit later bob costas and the penn state scandal as well. ♪

♪ ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] what's the point of an epa estimated 42 miles per gallon if the miles aren't interesting? the lexus ct hybrid. this is the pursuit of perfection. new venus & olay. olay moisture bars help lock in moisture... while five blades get venus close. revealing smooth and goddess skin begins. only from venus & olay.

♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] everyone likes a bit of order in their life. virtual wallet helps you get it. keep track of spending, move money with a slide, and use the calendar. all to see your money how you want. ♪ the mistakes of my first term, a couple of years, was thinking that this job was just about getting the policy right. and that's important. but, you know, the nature of this office is also to tell a story to the american people that gives them a sense of unity, and purpose, and optimism especially during tough times.

>> bob woodward how is he doing on that score? >> well, i mean, it's mixed. and we don't know. we really, there has not been this in-depth evaluation of his performance on the economy. and that's something that is going to come out, and i think it's really what the campaign is going to turn on. where he says if we get -- it's not only to get the policy

right, unfortunately he, and the republicans in congress, they have not come up with a plan, ever, in the last 3 1/2 years, to get the policy right. >> right. >> in fact, they haven't defined the policy. in fact, what they've done is -- is everyone says, kick the can, but it's a very large can. >> robert gibbs had a great line, said i've never been to a meeting where somebody says we have a policy problem. it's always, we have a communications problem. that's effectively what the president is saying. is that all -- is that legitimate? >> i, you know, i think if you look at the poll, the country wants to fire him on economic mismanagement. the problem is they're not sure about romney yet. he's going to have to do a lot better than that to fix his problem. >> grover norquist i have to ask you in this tax debate whether you sense in any way, shape or form that your pledge to raise -- not raise any taxes, period, is going to hold, even if president obama wins the election? >> yeah, and the good news is that it held in 2011 with tremendous pressure from obama and all the spending interests in washington, d.c. that wanted to raise taxes, to spend more, and the pledge, which 236 republicans in the house have made to the american people, not as senator reid sometimes says to me, but to the american people, and 40 republicans in the senate have done the same thing that romney has. and the commitment is we're not going to raise taxes. what does that mean? means we're going to have to

reform government. make all the decision that obama hasn't made to reduce the cost and scope of government. and reform government so that it works. the pledge is what allows you to get reform in government. it works in 2011. the argument that there wasn't agreement is wrong. there wasn't an agreement that raised taxes the way obama wanted. that's what they're unhappy about. >> i wanted to talk about something for those who are not obsessing about the campaign as we are, every minute of the day, and find out what folks are reading around this table. i'm going to start for my summer read. and it is bob caro's book on lyndon johnson "the passage of power." i got so fired up about the president's biography, last week i was in independence missouri at the truman library where they are marketing a particular pitch for bipartisan consensus. they'd like to see a new presidential ticket in the fall, eisenhower and truman in 2012. and what's so interesting about that, their up and down relationship that got pretty nasty over personal matters and also politics, and i was reminded this week, they did not reconcile until president kennedy's funeral, after he was assassinated. which was so interesting. mike what are you reading? >> well, in fiction i've got "mission to paris" elegantly written, atmospheric novel set

in paris on the eve of world war ii. and "a man and his ship" which is the story of william francis gibbs. greatest american naval architect of all time. he was a genius, to build the greatest ocean liner in america. and he did it. >> hilary? >> "passage to power" reminds you of the days when politicians loved politics. not just the policy. and i'm reading that, too. also, you know, rereading one of my favorite writers, and my friend in her honor nora ephron, one of her best. i feel bad about my neck. and then finally i really painful but important book by janette winterson about her growing up as an adopted child. >> bob? >> very serious history of world war ii called "the admirals" that my young daughter gave to me for father's day about the great admirals of world war ii. leahy and king and nimitz and halsey and the shared culture at the naval academy. and then how these are the five

star admirals in world war ii who won the war at sea. then second, read the manuscript of jack nelson, one of the great reporters here in washington, called "scoop." >> interesting. ben? >> really focus on two right now. one is great book on bob marley, and really about his early life. what we don't know about him. and then the other is the book about the nine weeks leading up to the declaration of freedom from the uk, and king george, and a reminder that the tea party wasn't the great lightning step that people think it is now. >> grover? >> well, for books, scott rasmussen's book "the people's money" on taxes and spending. for fun i'm rereading steven sailor's collection of books, murder mysteries placed in caesar augustus' rome where you have a -- goes through real history and real murders and real situations in ancient rome

and he puts a murder mystery in the middle of it and solves it. but every night i read the man monster in the closet because i have a 3 and 4-year-old. that i read the same thing every night. >> by the way you can go on our website and see all of these selections, as well as some staff picks as well. you've got to be thinking about the book club during the summer when folks are taking some time off. all right, before we go here i want to switch gears for a couple of minutes and talk about the fallout from the penn state scandal this week with the louis freeh report. joining me from london, nbc's lead prime-time anchor of the olympics bob costas. we can get to your reading, too, but i wanted to start on the very serious matter of the fallout from penn state. and i want to show something to our viewers, you may not be able to see, but it was a cartoon that was out this week in an alabama newspaper by j.d. crow and the press register, a college student looking up at that statue of joe paterno

saying, say it ain't so, joe pa. the tragedy of joe paterno as revealed by this report brought home in what way to you this week? >> well, i think when the dynamics of the sandusky situation first began to emerge, the most benign interpretation might have been for somebody to quote edmund burke about joe paterno and to say that all that's necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. and it appeared for awhile that maybe that's what happened. either that paterno didn't fully grasp the severity of the situation. he was somehow oblivious. he was guilty of neglect. unfortunately, for paterno's legacy, the freeh report makes clear that in some sense he was complicit. that in some sense he was among those who enabled sandusky. not only to get away with what he had already done, but to continue to victimize other children. so this does irreparable damage to joe paterno's legacy.

does it invalidate every good and worthy thing he did besides winning football games? and he did many good and worthy things besides winning football games? no, it does not invalidate those things. but it may overwhelm them. >> and, bob, we talked this week with all the more tragic is what gave paterno all the power that he had was doing different things than a lot of programs were doing around the country. >> yeah. yeah, if this had happened some place else, where it is seemingly win at all cost, and rogue coaches who jump from job to job for money and recruiting violations and all that sort of thing, it would have been just as tragic for the children who were victims. but it would not have had the same kind of resonance as the penn state situation does. because, as you said, joe paterno's power derived not just from victories, but because of what he himself called the grand experiment. that somehow you could win without ncaa violations, and he never had any, his players graduated at an admirable rate.

even professors at penn state who were skeptical of football factoring kind of environment conceded that those kids went to class. they by and large didn't take gut classes. they by and large were recruited for the right reasons. but eventually, over time, he built up such power that there was no oversight. think of it this way. if a sociology professor were accused or suspected of the type of actions that jerry sandusky was at first just suspected of, and if the heads of the university were about to move against that sociology professor, and the head of the sociology department said, you know, i don't think so. i don't think you should report this to child protective services. i think the compassionate thing to do would be to just talk to this sociology professor, and then ease him out. would he have that kind of influence? would he be able to obscure good judgment that way? i don't think so. >> the question is to me all week has been how did this happen in a big institution?

this is much bigger than a sports story. how do you get to a point in a big institution where you fail the most basic moral test, which is protecting innocence, and in this case children in your midst, who didn't have any business being on a college campus under these circumstances in the first place. how much pain do you think penn state should feel as a sports matter, as a sports program, should it be made an example of? how do you see this playing out? >> well, i think now in the aftermath of the freeh report that the powers that be at present at penn state ought to have the good grace to suspend their football program for at least a year, perhaps more, without the ncaa stepping in. but if they don't, it's a pretty good bet that the ncaa will step in, and render its version of the death penalty. which is to suspend the football program for at least a year, possibly longer than that. and some people will say, well wait a minute, that's not fair to the players involved. there's always collateral damage when justice is meted out. if a team is suspended from participating, let's say, in the

ncaa basketball tournament, that's not fair to the kid at the end of the bench who's a good student and had nothing to do with it. but that's what happens. so if that happens, then you can fairly say to members of the present penn state football team, you are free to transfer anywhere you want, you don't have to sit out a year, or your scholarship is extended beyond this, have to wait two more years, you still have that eligibility to fall back on. and all the members of the staff have to be paid by penn state. you can mitigate the damage that way. but if they play football come september at penn state, something's wrong. >> all right bob costas. thank you so much for being here. we'll, of course, see a lot more of you as you head up our olympic coverage in just a couple of weeks. thanks, bob. and before we go here, a quick programming note. you can watch my press pass conversation with actress sigourney weaver. she plays the secretary of state in a new series that debuts tonight on usa network called "political animals." that's up on our website meetthepress.nbc.com. a lot t