of course, willie geist. we also have msnbc and "time" magazine senior political analyst mark halperin, willie has been following this breaking news story over the past 30 minutes and we will -- let me -- willie, let's go back to you. a lot to talk about this morning on syria, the latest in the campaign as well, but why don't you get everybody up to date who's just tuning in this morning to what happened in colorado. >> for people just waking up at 6:00 in the morning tuning in to "morning joe," you're looking at pictures of aurora, colorado, where it's 4:00 in the morning. police there in aurora say a man in costume walked in at a midnight showing of "the dark knight rises" at the century 16 movie theater at the aurora town center mall, walked to the front of the theater wearing a gas mask, witnesses say, dropped some kind of a canister, perhaps a smoke bomb or tear gas and began opening fire at random. witnesses say he walked up the stairs, shooting people. what we know now according to

police, 14 people are dead, at least 50 have been transported to area hospitals. a number of different hospitals who were warned to prepare for a, quote, mass casualty incident. police saying that some of those 50 in extremely critical condition. in fact, when we first went on the air, the report was that ten people had been killed and in the span of a few minutes police raised that number to 14. 14 people dead, at least 50 injured. when you hear about these reports of extremely critical condition, it's probably safe to assume the number 14 will go up from there. a suspect is in custody. they have no evidence of a second gunman. they've locked down the movie theater because the gunman made some indication to police he put an explosive device inside the movie theater and he may, in fact, have more explosives at his home which is in north aurora, colorado. as a precaution they have no evidence of it yet, but they're looking for it. they have him in custody but the

headline is in aurora colorado, in the movie theater, 14 people were killed this morning. joe? >> it's awfully early after the shooting, but any information on the shooter? who he was? >> they don't know. they don't know. what they say is that he blended in well. people -- you know how these things work. the first night, highly-anticipated batman showings so people are in costume. he walked in a strange costume of his own so he didn't look out of place until he walked up to the front of that movie theater, dropped some kind of canister on the ground and started firing. he is d he's in custody, the guy has been arrested. obviously they're quickly looking into who this guy is and why he may have done it. >> absolutely horrific news. this follows up, willie, earlier this week in tuscaloosa, somebody walked into a bar with an ak-47 i believe it was and started shooting in the bar rand randomly. but, obviously, the toll here much greater and as you say, unfortunately, things may get

worse. >> and joe -- worth pointing out too, joe, this is about less than 20 miles from columbine high school in littleton, colorado. as our kusa reporter said, we don't make comparison to columbine lightly, we don't ever make them, but fair this morning with 14 people dead, to begin making that comparison. >> and when i first heard the news, willie, watching your show, i, obviously, because of the location, went back to columbine, but also, those two disturbed students were obsessed with "the matrix" and actually dressed up like the character neo and then went to school shooting up. just terrible, terrible tragedy. we'll continue with developments and willie, as news comes in, you'll be getting us up to date on that. we'll be updating you on the half hour as well. in other news today, intense fighting has been raging in

syria now for the fifth day. and rebels there are actually taking control of keyboarder crossings to turkey and iraq. meantime two long-time allies of president assad's regime, russia and china, once again, vetoed a u.n. resolution that would have brought painful sanctions against the syrian government. assad appeared on syrian state tv a day after the bomb attack in damascus killed three of his top officials. video shows assad swearing in his new defense minister. back in washington, senator john mccain hammered president obama for not intervening in syria. >> 17,000 syrians have been massacred while this administration has done nothing and the president of the united states has refused to even speak up. the president of united states talks about bain capital all the time. why doesn't he talk about the capital of syria? where thousands of innocent

people have been tortured, raped, and murdered. >> josh green, this is a tough, tough situation for the president to be in. almost 20,000 syrians killed. he's trying to move forward with the u.n. but he's got russia and china standing in the way of even the most basic sanctions. >> something that's been simmering in the background over the last couple months as the focus has been on the euro crisis and presidential election and here this is, kind of blowing up at a moment when it seems like sort of the whole world is slipping. >> right. and americans are going to, obviously, hear more and more of this kind of talk, not just coming from john mccain and other republicans, but also mitt romney will surely pick up this campaign theme. >> absolutely. >> that americans should intervene in syria. >> trying to compare it to times past like what happened in kosovo citing president clinton or talking about ra wan ta da and american concerns the u.s.

did not intervene there. mccain and other republicans, some of the sort offen policy republicans, marco rubio, mark portman, saying not boots on the ground but some american air power and some trying to get some resources and do more to step it pup it's a difficult time to do that. >> it is a difficult time. i will tell you what, be you certainly can sense that things are slipping away from assad, that -- i just -- sam stein, we have seen since the arab spring started to unfold in tunisia, a year and a half ago -- >> i guess, yeah. >> i guess about a year and a half ago, so many of these leaders who -- just look at mubarak, a guy that had been there since 1981, figure he's going to hold on, doesn't look like there's thae way assad survives this. >> the turning point when you see the fighting going into damascus and the attack, brazen attack, on his security council that happened yesterday. >> right.

>> i think what the frustration is within the political realm is there doesn't seem to be a consistent standard on either side over what would constitute or be the basis for intervention. for instance, in libya we all talked about protecting civilians. in syria we want to protect civili civilians. trying to a get a doctrine from these people is difficult, trying to get a standard for white u.s. should intervene is difficult. anyone can make political hay out of this, but it's, you know, it's important to hold off and see what actual details of policy prescriptions are from obama and romney. >> listen to you trying to be responsible in your flannel shirt this morning. is that flannel? >> my wife picked this out. >> has our dress coat dropped to that. >> i'm wearing a shirt jacket over it. >> sure, kurt cobain. mitt romney's about the government's role in business and building those businesses. saying that barack obama's words

speak volumes about his beliefs. >> now i'm -- i know there's some people who think what the president said was a gaffe. it wasn't a gaffe. it was instead his ideology. the president does, in fact, believe that people who build enterprises like this really aren't responsible for it. but in fact, it's a collective success of the whole society, that somehow builds enterprises like this. >> hey, mark, there's been some discussion about these commentsen on the set of "morning joe," two days ago when mika ran a young marxist league meeting, everybody thought they were perfectly fine comments while i was at home watching my head was exploding. i just wonder if this is one of these issues that people on the left see one way, people on the right see the other, and people in the middle just sort of scratch their heads and say what's the big deal? get me a job. i mean does the story matter? >> well, i think right now, it

could. there's so little understanding of what's going to move anybody that i think it sort of depends on how it gets handled. i don't think it should but both sides are looking for every advantage. this is the most competitive, most intense campaign we've had, partly -- i would say mostly because of the advance in technology but both sides see it's close and i wouldn't say are frustrated but they're aware of the fact that every advantage taking a little ground every day politically is what it's going to take up through the end. >> what do you think, josh? i hear that and say, wait a second. hard work. everybody works this hard. everybody does not work as hard. i've got examples in my own family of people who chose not to work as hard. >> this is actually been mitt romney's i think most effective thing he's done to seize on something obama has said, sometimes out of context and just hammer away on that. they haven't been successful in the same way obama has with the

bain ads, tax returns and causing this fur ore, but as mark said the slow ground war of attrition, winding him down, getting him off his talking points. >> political equivalent of like world war i. >> seems like it. >> trench warfare, inch here, inch there. >> they find these remarks and say finally we're seeing the bigger picture of what obama feels about government and how it should be involved when, in fact, if you step back, you look at what the candidates are offering, they're not that far apart on this. mitt romney doesn't think that all government intervention and help for businesses should be wiped off. barack obama doesn't think marginal tax rates should go to 100%. they're not that far apart but they need to make it seem as big a difference as possible. >> but this role about these comments, too, it's like when romney said i like to fire people or corporations are people, touched a nerve with people. with the president's comments now, plays into sort of the ad that the romney folks have put out and he's on a tour of small businesses, we will see romney in jeans with small business owners i think consistently. >> right.

>> until he goes to europe to make this point. >> it's funny he showed up -- mitt romney showed up at this event with the business owner and started touting how terrible this was and turns out the business owner had gotten a government loan and diffused the attack. the campaign is trying to make it seem like there's huge differences between the candidates when you step back for a second we're arguing over something that's relatively -- >> listen to some of the things romney has said. he's given speeches strikingly similar to what the president was trying to say in the speech, the idea we need roads, infrastructure all these things. >> it's a rhetorical difference. >> vital part of a necessary functioning economy. >> so, obviously, kelly, this is -- this what is republicans in the house have been talking about for years. this is what business owners have been talking about for years. barack obama just doesn't get it. he just doesn't get free enterprise. he's been a professor. >> it fed into their suspicions about the fact he didn't have a

private sector background the way some candidates or presidents do. >> we've heard that from democratic ceos and republican ceos, democratic small business owners, republican small business owners, for four years. this guy doesn't get it. and i think you're right, i think it feeds viscerally in to this belief. >> especially when you're talking about these are difficult times and a lot of small businesses have not had an easy go over the last few years. when you hear the president say those things, even if you understand the full context, it's how does it resonate with you and matters, where do you live and what state are you in and is it a pivotal place? >> right. >> it's something that the romney campaign can run with and they're doing that certainly. >> and i just -- i want to underline what you said, there's not a huge difference between, as we've said on the air, as meacham said, this is not 1980, not ronald reagan versus jimmy carter. >> it's a game of inches here. >> ronald reagan versus gerald ford in 1976. a campaign you can get really excited about.

it's just not huge differences. by the way, i can say without a doubt that if mitt romney were sitting in barack obama's chair, on january 20th, he would have done a lot of the same things on the bailouts, a lot of the same things with detroit, he just would have. you know why? because george w. bush -- >> did a lot -- >> basically did the same things. he wouldn't have gone forward -- actually, he may have gone forward to health care because the "usa today" op-ed in 2009 told barack obama you need to have an vidindividual mandate. >> there's not a big difference between these two guys. for my republican friends that get mad when i say that, go look at his record. it's right there. he's not a conservative. >> look, i mean how he governed in massachusetts. the health care law was the predecessor for obama care, right? romney came in, inherited a bad economic situation, talked about how he had to turn it around which is what obama is doing. he raised fees rather than taxes. obama has not raised taxes yet. i mean there's a lot of actual

parallels between how mitt romney operated in massachusetts and obama operates. i'm not saying they're the same people. they have a different perspective on government. >> and different world view. i think one of the important things about this speech is for me, as a small government conservative, it does feed in to some preexisting beliefs i had about the president that he may not understand how small businesses run and how you succeed in the private -- >> why you see the speech being so effective with republicans. i mean, at least the ones i follow and talk to are excited, they suddenly think romney has found his stride. part is the special pleading, anything to get the attention from bain and tax returns. >> thank god. >> republicans talking about small businesses and shaking their fists at the president. it's a poings they want to be in and like the campaign discussion to be about since they want this to be a referendum on the obama economy.

>> we were hyperventilating over the doing fine comment, but we tend to grasp on to these issues as they arise and act as if they're huge monumental deals when you look at the polling things haven't moved all that much. >> even through all the bain attacks, tax returns, through the was he or was he not in charge, you know -- >> we're almost in the same place. tightening up a little bit -- >> just occupies a lot of our time. >> exactly. willie, the president had a response, his team had a response to these attacks, didn't he? >> we got a new ad this morning from obama for america defending those comments you're talking about. here's the ad. >> president obama exposed what he really thinks about free people and the american vision. he said this -- if you've got a business, you didn't build that. somebody else made that happen. >> if you were successful,

somebody along the line gave you some help. there was a great teacher somewhere in your life. >> we value school teachers, somebody who builds roads. >> if you got a business, you didn't build that, somebody else made that happen. >> really couldn't have a business if you didn't have those things. >> the point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. >> all right. mark, so the obama's team and obama's defenders, president's defenders, say that's all taken out of context. do you see anything any of president obama's philosophy in the comments he made there. >> sure. but i've said this when mitt romney said things not exactly the way he would have liked or things could be taken out of context. i think this is one of the worst things that's happening in american political journalism

today, that this stuff gets treated the way it does. sure, as you said, there's something about the president's philosophy but it's not as we suggested before all that different from governor romney's philosophy about infrastructure and the important role of government. there are differences between them, but i find this to be, again, about the worst trend of this cycle. it's not bland new, but what he said, what they're saying the president said, is just not right, it's not accurate. he didn't say that small businesses are created by government. he didn't. >> joe, we talked about this a couple days ago with john heilemann here and harold ford, too, it happened on the other side too, corporations are people, like firing people, ripped out of the context, but turned into a story that lasts a week or two weeks. >> yeah. and, of course, the problem with mitt romney during the general election, he had one of these comments ripped out of context about every three seconds. >> this is true. this is true. >> they all fed. and when he started wearing -- i didn't get this after south carolina, he started wearing the

monenicle and top hat, a little over the top, that he's sort of helping his opponents to find things. hey, mark halperin, another bad trend, demagoging medicare. republicans did it in 2010, democrats did it in 2006. bill clinton did it throughout the 1990s. president obama, yesterday, was wrapping up a second straight day of campaigning in florida, where he warned seniors that mitt romney was going to drive up the cost of medicare and end medicare as we know it. according to many people who supported him. there was just this huge, huge effort to scare seniors in the state of florida. let's take a listen. >> he plans to roll back health care reform, forcing more than 200,000 floridians to pay more for their prescription drugs. he plans to turn medicare into a

voucher program, so if that voucher isn't worth enough to buy the health insurance that's on the market, you're out of luck. you're on your own. it's wrong to ask seniors to pay more for medicare, just so millionaires and billionaires can pay less in taxes. that's not the way to reduce the deficit. we shouldn't be squeezing more money out of seniors who are just barely getting by right now. my plan is to squeeze more money out of the health care system by eliminating waste and going after abuse and fraud in medicare. >> waste, fraud and abuse. when will we go after waste, fraud and abuse. we always hear waste, fraud and abuse. get it out of medicare we don't have to slow down the rate of growth. this is -- this line of attack is straight out of bill clinton's '95 and '96 medhiscare attacks saying that republicans want to cut medicare to pay for tax cuts for the rich. and he's using it in florida. will it work?

>> look, let me be be clear my own position i'm against waste and fraud but don't mind abuse. >> very good. >> look, this is stunning to me that we have two of the most serious people i've ever covered as general election presidential candidates and both of them are engaged in this stuff on a range of issues. no one wants to change the program for current retirees. the president's not really making that clear to florida seniors right now and the republicans are right, that the president and his party need a plan to save these programs. republicans are at least trying more new ideas to save the programs for future generations. but there is also some truth to what the president is saying, which is, republicans, mitt romney, paul ryan, do fundamentally want to change the plan. there's no doubt going forward, in advertising and in the president's own rhetoric, the president will be engaged in the tactics democrats have used before quite effectively and blurring the issue suggesting the current seniors who benefit from medicare will have the program fundamentally changed

for them. there may well be some changes for current retirees but what the president is conflating is the plans to change it down the road versus what people who currently are beneficiaries get. i think it's worked in the past. i think it's a good chance to work again because the ryan plan is pretty radical in its change. there's fundamental change associated with it. i think governor romney will have to join this debate. he can't sit back as a matter of politics and has to have the courage of his conviction if he's for the ryan plan he needs to educate the public about what the change means. >> this stuff always works. >> not this time possibly. romney has come back and said like they did in 2010 that obama's the one who cut $500 million out of medicare. might be billion. >> billion. >> billion. and that's been an effective rhetoric, certainly effective in 2010, most often run republican ad was that ad. there is truth what obama said. return it for nonretirees into a

voucher system. that's a debate you can have. >> like 15 years. >> 55 and under. >> this is what's at stake. it is legitimate for the president to be out there talking about these things, even if it hits people who, you know, aren't necessarily sitting on the front row in front of me. this is one of the big differences between the two candidates in the race. >> legitimate for romney to say he did cut it, but that was obviously part of the waste, fraud and abuse he cut. he poured it back into health care reform subsidies for people to buy health care reform. this is a substantive debate and don't think this is the same as we what we were talking about earlier. there are substantive agreements -- >> except for the fact you have the president of the united states standing up here, he understanding medicare and medicaid alone bankrupt this country 20 years out. he had a chance to do something about it, a debt commission he put together, the debt commission came back and said this is how you save medicare and medicaid, what you do, and he did nothing about it. now he's running around attacking a congressman's plan on medicare that is never going

to become law of the land and i understand if mitt romney wants to turn medicare into a voucher program, kelly, that is legitimate. i would just suggest the president has a responsibility to come forward -- he's been president for three and a half years. his own debt commission -- >> it resonates the next few months. everybody knows that the problem after the election, whoever is elected president, will -- this dealing with these entitlement programs and the fiscal cliff which will be the new buzz word of washington is so important. but these arguments resonate in florida, not only with the seniors who go to the polls but the growing children of seniors who worry about them and will they be taken care of. >> this is one of the biggest problems, mark is talking about american politics, one of the biggest problems in american politics and i've heard other people say this, somebody said it on set yesterday, for the past 50 years politicians have got elected by promising to give people stuff, moving forward they're going to have to figure out how to get elected while taking away stuff.

>> while -- >> much tougher task but saying we've got to save medicare. chris christie is doings it in new jersey but by facing it straight on. i don't see mitt romney striking that pose. >> deferred gratification is not a political gem. >> no. >> it doesn't work. doesn't work. still ahead on "morning joe," we've got senator john mccain here, going to join us on set in washington. we're going to talk about his criticisms of the president over syria and former national security adviser dr. brzezinski will be here and former white house director of domestic policy melody barnes. up next the morning papers. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. [ male announcer ] drive a car filled with as much advanced technology

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welcome back to "morning joe." let's take a look at the morning papers. "the washington post," writes about a new investigative report to congress saying that gsa spent $270,000 in a one-day event in washington, d.c., just a month after the infamous conference in las vegas. you'll remember, the gsa spent more than $800,000 on an agency get-together in vegas two years ago, complete with mind readers and a clown. >> you can't say that enough. >> our usual lineup on "morning joe." >> yeah. >> me being the clown, of course. team building exercises at the washington, d.c., included drum lessons so everyone in the audience got a set of drum sticks worth a total of $20,000. willie, very important. >> drumming. >> no doubt about it. important to have the drum sticks. the "usa today," microsoft reports its first quarterly loss

in its 26 years as a public company. microsoft acquired on-line ad services in 2007 and the service hasn't performed as well as anticipated. that forcing the computing giant to write down its value. still, overall revenue is up 4% for the seattle-based company. >> how about the "l.a. times" no longer a man's world. emmy nominations, although it is because "mad men" pulled in 17, "american horror story" 17 nominations, hbo's "girls" took in five as well as women working in comedy, make advances, say the piece. "veep" staring julie louise dry fwus and "30 rock." "game change" with 12 emmy nominations. >> that's unbelievable. >> how much is -- >> what's that? >> how does julianne moore not win for sarah palin? >> exactly. >> i guess the question is, what

happens if heilemann wins a couple of emmys. >> seriously? >> hall person has humility. i'm not worried about halperin. >> heilemann is the problem. >> heilemann went hollywood a long time ago, baby. that train goes right off the tracks if he has an emmy to put on his mantle. sunday's "parade" magazine, let the games begin. parade breaks down 23 reasons to watch the olympics, everything from the oldest olympian in london a guy who's 71 years old, to how the national anthem, how many national anthems in london the london philharmonic has had to record. i can't read the tease to the "parade" magazine piece, can't wait to see the whole thing. willie, back to you. >> back in a minute, update, new details on the shooting in the movie theater in aurora, colorado, outside denver. we'll be right back. [ cellphone rings ]

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an update on the breaking news. suburb of denver, ten miles east of denver, police say 15 people are dead the last time we talked the death toll was 14. that has ticked up to 15 dead. at least 50 more wounded at a shooting in the movie theater.

according to the denver post the man is 24 years old, the suspect in custody. the incident happened local time at a mall in aurora about ten miles east of the city. kusa our nbc station in denver reports dozens of people have been transported to a nearby hospital. reports say the shooting happened during a late showing of the new batman movie "the dark knight rises." according to witnesses there, the shooter wearing all black kicked in the emergency exit door in theater nine, walked to the front of the theater, stood in front of the screen, threw some kind of smoke-producing bomb and began shooting at random. witnesses say he was wearing a gas mask. police say he was carrying a rifle, a knife and a gun. his apartment now is being evacuated and searched by police for explosive devices based on information the suspect gave when he was arrested. police say the man was arrested without incident. he did not resist. he did not put up a fight. in fact, the police chief in aurora, dan oates, calling this

a, quote, horrific event, i should say. no evidence of other shooters. so far, pete williams reporting to us that an fbi official says authorities are treating this as an active shooter investigation, working with local police, saying so far, no indication at this early point in the investigation of any nexus to terrorism. aurora, as i said, a few miles away from columbine high school. the scene of another tragedy. of course, in 1999. the big news here, 15 dead now, 14. we expected that number to go up from 14 after we told you 50, 5-0, people have been transported to local hospitals, many the critical condition. the death toll at now 15. a 24-year-old man is in custody. let's listen to some eyewitness accounts of what happened inside that movie theater in aurora. >> said you were in an adjoining theater and he actually came in to that theater as well? >> yeah.

apparently, a minute or two after we had evacuated came into that theater and was shooting in that theater as well for any stragglers that may have still been in that theater. it was chaotic. it was like something you would see in a movie. it was surreal. nobody could really believe what was happening and a girl came up to us shortly before the alarm went off saying that somebody was shooting in the lobby. and shortly after that the alarm went off and everybody evacuated. >> wow. that's amazing. after you evacuated what did you see outside? what were people saying who may have been shot? >> three people ran up to us as we were driving ran in front of our vehicle and one stopped us, and said that there was a gunman who is setting off bombs and shooting people. apparently he had just run into the theaters and was just you know shooting people. he wasn't giving anybody a chance to get out. people were saying that this was a terrorist attack. i'm not sure if that's the case.

but it sure sounds like it. >> it sounded like madness to me. she said that a man about 6 feet tall, taller than her, kicked through the door and he was in -- she said a riot helmet. she said he was -- had a bullet-proof vest on. she said that he was completely covered in all black with goggles. and he -- she said that after that point, when she saw that he was holding a shotgun, her and her boyfriend dropped to the floor and just kind of started to crawl to see if they could get away. when she turned around all she saw was the guy slowly making his way up the stairs and just firing. >> calls to police came out of that movie theater at 12:39 local time, almost exactly four hours ago. police say they were on the scene within one or two minutes. again, the police chief there describing it as a, quote,

horrific event, a scene one officer described as police officers dragging bodies out of that movie theater. again the update right now, 15 people dead. the death toll up to 15 now. 50 more transported to local hospitals including now we're being told six victims taken to the children's hospital in colorado. we'll keep following the story and get back to "morning joe" in just a minute. i don't spend money on gasoline. i don't have to use gas. i am probably going to the gas station

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the debt. >> 43 past the hour. live look at the white house. welcome back to "morning joe." according to a report, that ad from crossroads gps, the group founded by karl rove, played more than 6,000 times over six-day days in battleground states. here with us now, chief washington correspondent of cnbc and political writer john harwood featured in the ad without his permission. you have a response to being featured in the ad. you write more and more this election year campaign ads include footage from el it vision news program further blurring the fading lines between separating modern journalism and politics. the trend bothers practicers of. i thought you were particularly foe genic that day, said carl wroev. that was not the reason cross

roads used footage. they wanted to borrow a bit of credibility from the mainstream media they choose at other moments to bash as biased. our own credibility is hardly setting interesting records right now, which is precisely why journalists worry about the additional baggage of becoming associated with campaign advocacy. >> this has been going on for a long time. one politician get an editorial quote out of it and say, jack jones is a jerk. >> right. >> "new york times" editorial. this happens. >> the difference is it used to be headlines ripped out of newspapers and images they put on the screen. i was talking to tom brokaw about this the other day, it was very rare, you know, 10, 20 years ago this happened but there's so much material on television now, it's so easy for ad makers to take the footage, they do it now and you've got bob schieffer in an ad right now, mark halperin from this show, david brooks from "meet the press." >> right. >> my little thing on cnbc.

it's just become the way they make ads and turn them around rapidly. >> we have to show this in the times article. let's come up close. here is john harwood on this side being violated. his journalistic integrity being violated. >> that's embarrassing. >> over here when times were more tender, there's john harwood in a 1968 ad for rfk. bobbie kennedy. >> huh? >> the crazy thing about that -- >> were you whining about that too? did you go up to bobby and go i did not give you approval? >> you were disturbed? the crazy thing about that ad, that ad aired in primary states where my dad was covering bobby kennedy's campaign. imagine the ethical issue that would arise if that happened today. the reason it happened, my mom had been involved in anti-war stuff and some of those groups put out a casting call, wanted

some kids to talk to kennedy to film for an ad so she volunteered me for it, gave me a couple things to ask him. used it in the ad. but it was an entirely different circumstance. >> mark halperin, you also have been -- >> violated in this way. >> used and violated in this way by the campaign. how did that make you feel? >> i didn't like it. i felt -- i went back and look at what tom brokaw said when they used him in an ad. my understanding a spot that included me from this program and bob schieffer that ad ran on sunday only and isn't running anymore and my understanding is the campaign doesn't plan to run it. it wasn't like a blanket the airwaves the way the harwood spot did. you know, i mean they're going to do it, hard to stop them. legally and practically hard to stop them. as a journalist it just is not good for us because our roles are important in the process and they're blurred for a lot of citizens and voters when that

happens. i think it's unfortunate and i wish it hadn't. >> let's go, stay with "the new york times" on your must reads. paul krugman. >> i've en one, like everyone e following the news i've been awe struck he writes by the way questions about mr. romney's career at bain capital, the private equity firm he founded and his refusal to release tax returns have so obviously caught the romney campaign off guard. what's now apparent is that the campaign was completely unprepared for the obvious questions and it has reacted to the obama's campaign decision to ask those questions with a hysteria that surely must be coming from the top. clearly mr. romney believed he could run for president while remaining safe inside that pluto crattic bubble, and is both shocked and angry at the discovery that the rules that apply to others, also apply to people like him. and you mentioned liberal day here on "morning joe" when you were off and we were talking about this.

i do think that is a running problem with him, he is in that group of people that don't have the same rules applying to them. i think people are resentful about that. i'm not sure you think that works. >> i think there's a ceo mindset and posture that he has lived with for a very long time, and in business, people are often deferential to ceos or the rules of having to expose themselves or not quite the same as people in the rough and tumble politics. even though he was a governor i think he carries himself, which is part of what people find attractive, as a ceo. >> right. >> but there is a space kind of a public space that always has existed around very successful ceos. >> john harwood, are you surprised that the romney campaign seems surprised by these attacks? >> yes. and remember, during the primary season, people like karl rove, wrote an op-ed saying they need to come out and deal with the bain stuff in a more comprehensive way. they simply weren't going to do it. it's sort of like the way mitt

romney's drawn a line on his tax returns. >> right. >> like no, i don't have to do that i'm not going to do that. he has a little bit of a shield, people like steve rattner have said this was an exemplary company. steve rattner comes out of that world. no, i think they don't want to go over further on disclosures than they've done so far. we'll see whether they can hold that. >> if they do it, my prediction is during the opening ceremony of the olympic games, when the u.s. team hits the field entering, when i'm going to have my blackberry and waiting for some document dump. >> exactly. it will be a big one. >> i don't think they're going to do it. ann romney actually got drawn into it yesterday which i think is a big mistake, saying we've given you all, everything you're going to get. >> it's a whole 1% thing that i think people will not respond well to. coming up, john, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> bring you the latest details on the shooting in colorado. the death toll up to 15.

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if you're just waking up we're covering breaking news from colorado. 15 people are dead and 50 more are wounded in a shooting at a movie theater near denver.

according to "the denver post" a 24-year-old man is in custody. the ins den happened just after midnight local time at a mall in aurora, colorado, about ten miles east of denver. nbc station kusa reports dozens of people have been transported to a nearby hospital. reports say the shooting happened during a late showing of the new batman installment "the dark knight rises." a movie. the shooter wearing all black kicked in the emergency exit door in the theater. it's theater number nine of that mall. threw some sort of canister that made a hissing sound and started shooting. the officers found the suspect at a car mind the theater. he had a gas mask, a rifle, a knife and a handgun. his apartment had been evacuated and is being searched for explosive devices. police say the suspect did to the resist when they arrested him. and there is no evidence of any other shooters at this time. let's bring in willie geist, he's been covering this story throughout the night.

willie, this any other information that you have at this point? >> couple other things we've gotten in to us. victims as young as 6 years old at children's hospital, they have six victims at children's hospital there. they range from age 6 to 31. so we don't know how many of those six are kids but they have a victim 6 years old. kusa in denver reported that three people are being treated for chemical exposure which gets to what exactly that canister was that he threw in the room before he started shooting at random. questions about whether or not this is terrorism. we're told that president who's in palm beach, florida, this morning, was told at 5:26 a.m. eastern time. notified of the attack by his homeland security adviser john brennan. pete williams reports the fbi is working with local police there and says so far at this early point anyway, there's no nexus to terrorism. so, you have a 24-year-old white male in custody as you said hh he was arrested without incident

but not before killing 15 people at this moment and we have at least 50, 5-0, others transported to other hospitals, some in critical condition. one as young as 6 years old. mika? >> willie, thank you. we'll be following this breaking story throughout the morning. stay with us for that. also joining us in washington, we have eugene robinson and chuck todd and former white house director of domestic policy, melody barnes coming up. much more "morning joe" when we come back. [ cellphone rings ] the wife. hey, babe. got the jetta. i wiped the floor with the guy! not really. i would've been fine with 0% for 36 months, but i demanded 60. no...i didn't do that. it was like taking candy from a baby. you're a grown man. alright, see you at home. [ male announcer ] the volkswagen autobahn for all event. we good? we're good. [ male announcer ] at 0% apr for 60 months, no one needs to know how easy it was to get your new volkswagen.

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welcome back to "morning joe." joining us now at the top of the hour, pulitzer-prize winning columnist and associate editor of the "washington post," eugene robinson, chief white house correspondent chuck todd and former director of the white house, domestic policy council and ceo of melody barnes solutions, melody barnes. good to is you with hour. we want to go to willie geist with an update on the situation out of colorado. >> nbc pete williams confirming the suspected shooter in today's massacre is a 24-year-old man, a white male, police say. 15 people are dead right now, 50 more wounded. at least 50 more wounded. at a shooting at a movie theater in aurora, about ten miles outside denver. the suspect in custody. police and witnesses say he walked into the movie theater, it was the opening night of this "the dark knight rises" movie. people were in cuss tomb so he wasn't much -- didn't stand out.

was wearing black and wore a gas mask. walked to the front of the theater, dropped a canister, police say, some kind of smoke began to rise and he just began opening fire indiscriminately killing now at least 15 people. the police chief there in aurora, calls it a horrific scene. images of police dragging people and, perhaps, bodies out of the movie theater as they rushed in. they arrived about two minutes after they received the call at 12:39 local time. 12:39 a.m. 20 minutes into the movie this guy walked in and began opening fire. that suspect is in custody. 24-year-old white male. he was carrying a couple of weapons, a knife and claimed there was some kind of an explosive inside and they shut down and locked down the movie theater as they checked. they're quick to point out they haven't found that yet. jim mcla shef ski reporting defense officials have no indication the shooter is military or former military, something we wanted to check on. the incident happeneds just after midnight time and again,

the president was notified at 5:26 a.m. east coast time. he's in palm beach, florida, told by his homeland security adviser john brennan and been getting constant updates and we'll get an update in 10 or 15 minutes from one of the hospitals, the medical center of aurora where some of the 50 wounded have been taken, some of them in critical condition. we'll check in with that in a little bit. >> willie, you've been covering this all morning, we'll check back in with you. other headlines this morning, intense fighting raged for a fifth day in syria where rebels have seized keyboarder crossings to turkey and iraq. meanwhile, two long-time allies of president bashar al assad's regime, russia and china, vetoed a u.n. resolution that would have brought painful sanctions against the syrian government. assad appeared on syrian state tv, day after a bomb attack in damascus killed three of his top officials including a brother-in-law. the video shows assad swearing in his new defense minister.

back in washington, senator john mccain hammered president obama for not intervening in syria. >> 17,000 syrians have been massacred while this administration has done nothing and the president of the united states has refused to even speak up. the president of the united states talks about bain capital all the time. why doesn't he talk about the capital of syria, where thousands of innocent people have been tortured, raped and murdered? >> we're going to have senator john mccain here on the show next hour on "morning joe." >> next hour. melody, what should the president do? obviously far fewer died in libya before we went there. bosnia and kosovo in the 1990s, less killings triggered a larger response.

what does assad have to do to his people before the president decides our military should intervene? >> first of all, senator mccain's assertion the president is doing nothing is absurd. i mean the president has -- and the administration, we've heard u.n. ambassador susan rice, all speak to this, have all been working to try and move that country toward a place of political transition. we know that nonlethal assistance has been provided to the opposition. we also know that we have been working with allies around the world, the turks, you know, other arab nations, europeans, to increase pressure on syria. and that's why this regime, the assad regime, is shaky and far on the ropes as it is today. what we have to do is make sure we don't reign down further terror and violence on the syrian people, at the same time, and the president, the administration, has said that all options are being prepared for, but we have to provide an opportunity for a diplomatic

transition to work. that we have to do this in a way that doesn't cause more damage to the syrian people and harm even more people that have been killed today. >> chuck, after a decade of war, americans are exhausted. your your reporting suggests even republicans are exhausted with the possibility of another war. >> i've talked to a lot of republicans on capitol hill and it is clear to me on this issue, mccain, lindsey graham, joe lieberman, they're kind of a caucus of three and that's about it. they might be able to get a few more people on their side on this but you're not hearing a lot when you talk to republican senators. >> you're talking about going to war? >> going in and trying to do something militarily in syria. they're all sitting there going what do we do? they said, okay, who are we supporting if we support the op approximation here? how many are al qaeda? look at what happened in egypt,

democracy got us the muslim brotherhood. what was interesting you would hear all this and so other than a -- even mitt romney has struggled in hitting the president on this, right? what has he hit him on? your ability to re-set relations with russia is not paying dividends here. if you're mitt romney it's the best avenue to go at. about the only opening here. he's not offering any other idea. >> no. >> not a big -- not a popular thing. >> the thing is that events are moving pretty rapidly it seems in syria and i'm wondering if we aren't seeing the beginning of a collapse into a kind of civil war anarchy. >> certainly seems that way. >> seems that way with the opposition staging massive attacks in damascus, in the capital. that is -- that historically has been one of the most buttoned down places i've ever been. you know, nothing happened. >> there's a reason the heads of hamas and hezbollah used damascus as their safe house. >> exactly.

the heads of the popular fronts of the liberation of palestine, visited that guy once in a villa in damascus years ago. you know, but -- but things -- that's not the way it is today. and if there's a general collapse, i wonder if, obviously, not the security council, because china and russia won't allow it, but if the united states and some coalition of the, if not willing then desperate, have to try to do something to stabilize the situation. this is an important -- could not be in a more strategic place. >> i just wonder how many of these republicans are thinking, we didn't intervene in egypt. >> in egypt and now it doesn't seem so -- >> right. >> and by the way -- >> out of concept. >> people aren't burning american flags in the streets of cairo. we've seen the arab spring for the most part move with its own

force without u.s. intervention. i wonder if republicans as well as democrats are following the president's, quote, lead from behind idea that the united states isn't the first in and we aren't firing missiles off and aren't choosing sides and defending people. >> i think the bigger picture, the wariness to jump in and syria will bubble over, something will have to happen, some move has to be made, whether we call it desperate or not, and how many people we are losing. >> no doubt about it. our problem also is in all of these, melody, in these battles we don't know who the opposition is. we still don't know who gadhafi's opposition was. we still have no idea what's going to happen in egypt. if there were a clear-cut opposition in syria with a jeffersonian, you know, democracy, you know, promising to be in full bloom, then

there's no doubt there would be more republicans and some democrats lining up saying this leader is syria's future. we have no idea what a future looks like. >> to eugene's point, this is about working together with the allies that we have and they exist, to try and put in place a kind of -- prepare for the political transition that needs to take place for the very reasons you mentioned. we know there are chemical weapons there that have to be safeguarded. that could be not turned against the people of syria, but also not an expansion and a proliferation. >> those are the chemical weapons that saddam hussein moved over the syrian border after the united states went in, right? we could say for at least six months he moved them all to syria! and so -- we're going to find them. we are going to find them. wmds. there they are. >> rumsfeld and cheney will come out here and vindicate it. that's what you're saying.

>> we know that we have some very serious considerations that behind the scenes, the americans are working with allies to make sure are protected and contained. but for the very reasons that we mentioned, this isn't -- this is a complex situation and turning it into a political football and political rhetoric and given the wariness of the american people and the realization of the strain that exists on our military are things we have to consider while we have to be cognizant of the thousands of people that are in danger every day there. >> you think john boehner wants to have a resolution on the floor of the house? do you think he wants that on the floor of the house? eric cantor? a resolution about doing something militarily on syria. no way. >> there is a battle and we saw it yesterday when we were talking about a bipartisan bill to reduce military spending over the next decade, gene, the republican party is split. people like george will and certainly myself, and other

conservatives that are saying, enough. we can't be a small government party at home and a big government party abroad. we can't play woodrow wilson with a budget we have. we, you know, there was a split starting in 2005 and it was immediate after george w. bush's second inaugural address, where he said, we're going to ensure freedom on all four corners of the globe and there was an immediate split in the republican party. this feeds right into it. >> absolutely. and i think it's certainly gone along with the mood in the country, there's this clear split in the republican party, i think if you, you know, you could put together probably a majority against intervention, using democrats and republicans, and i think that's reflected in public opinion in general. people are wary and weary of war. that said, we may in the next

days or weeks see entire units of the syrian army defecting or turning the other way. >> you can feel this thing is going to move faster than the politicians. >> right. >> because your commander and you see the defense minister has been blown up, and you're going to start wondering which way this is going to -- >> and if you're people around assad, you have seen saddam hussein, a guy there for 30 years, everybody was afraid of, got hung. you're going to see how it ended for gadhafi. how it's ending for mubarak. i mean, this -- assad, people around assad, if assad and his wife don't know it, assad's days are numbered. >> what's going to be interesting here, this story is forcing itself on the campaign. the campaigns are doing everything they can not to be serious, by the way. it's sort of one of those, when you stay away for a week, you know, like, wait, what? what? talking about what? and you see the pettiness. one is arguing you've taken me

out of context, the other side no you've taken me out of context and they're both right on that front. and nobody -- neither side wants to talk about like a syria. you don't see romney or the president -- >> absolutely not. >> but this story is forcing itself. >> yeah. >> on the campaign and they're going to have to do that. while cairo symbolically was very important in egypt, strategically you could argue the fall of syria could be in the near term more important and impactful than egypt. even though egypt is the symbolic -- it's not even close. >> egypt has the peace treaty with israel and -- >> we had gotten beyond that. we have confidence that was going to be -- >> syria is a different story. >> completely different story, it really is, and, you know, imagine the meetings taking place in jerusalem, for exampl., >> i mean it's just -- >> at the end of this very messy

decade, we have two enemy in the middle east. we have iran and we've got syria. iran uses syria to forward their terrorist goals throughout the middle east and the world. you take away syria, that is a huge strategic win. you are right for us, strategically, bigger than egypt. >> yes. >> bigger than -- much bigger than libya. >> and for us, my dad's coming on. the last time we talked about this it didn't go very well. just saying. >> what? >> it was horrible. >> when -- remember when everybody thought -- assad should be dealt with. wasn't too long ago, whether it was this or the realist on the republican side or realists on the democratic foreign policy. you can deal with assad. >> exactly. >> good luck. >> just like -- >> dealt with. >> still looking at the moderates in iran. >> this will be fun. okay. on the point that you were making, chuck, about people taking people out of context, candidates, mitt romney -- >> going to read the barack

obama story in florida using d medi-scare. >> the reality around medicare? >> the medi-scare. >> i heard this in 1995 from bill clinton. those mean republicans are going to steal your medicare and give tax cuts to the rich. >> oh the humanity. >> i'm not sure -- >> and the policy. >> all right. he zeroed in on president obama's comments last week about the government's role in building businesses saying obama's words speak volumes. >> now i'm -- i know there's some people who think what the president said was a gaffe. it wasn't a gaffe. it was instead his ideology. the president does, in fact, believe that people who build enterprises like this really aren't responsible for it. but in fact, it's a collective success of the whole society that somehow builds enterprises

like this. >> so why don't you now ask a leading question to mark halperin while i roll my eyes. >> sure. mark halperin, ridiculous, actually i think mitt romney probably doesn't want to build a narrative that's not necessarily completely accurate about the president because the narrative about him is equally as damaging. how's that? not a question. >> that wasn't even a question. >> where is that leading me. >> i'm just really tired of this whole thing and it's silly. >> gets so tired of it that when -- >> i couldn't read the story. it's killing me. >> her hand went up. are you tired of this, mark? i'm tired of them doing this to each other? i'm tired of it and we've got to find a way as a country to bring it back on track. where are they on syria? how are they different. where are they on medicare, on the fiscal cliff and the huge issues whoever is elected will have to deal with. something out of whack that we can't produce in this country, serious debate.

we've had unserious debates in past campaigns, but the challenge the country faces now at home and abroad are as serious as any i can recall on the eve of a presidential election. there aren't that many days left and there's just -- we don't seem to be headed to get back on track. i hope whoever has chosen to moderate those presidential debates really takes it seriously because i worry that those are going to be the only moments when we have anything like a serious engagement between these two guys. >> chuck, for some reason, you know, we've seen these ads where one side takes another side's comments out of context, proper context. romney, i mean they just out and out misrepresented. >> right. >> what the president said on i think when he was talking about mccain. >> right. >> but in this case, i understand what mark is saying, in this case, when i first heard the president's comments and heard it, you know, in proper context, i didn't gasp in my car listening to the radio but said,

really? the part where he was going, oh, some people think they're just successful because they work harder than you. everybody works hard. everybody doesn't work hard. people make thousands of choices every day on how hard they're going to work. i want to make this point, how long they're going to work, on how smart they're going to work, on how many chances they're going to take. you get a thousand different choices, a million different choices every day in america and you do choose over time over decades those choices determine your success or your failure. and listening to that speech, that was just sort of like, oh, those rich successful people, come on, there's no difference between what they've done and you've done. you've worked hard too. >> it's funny n sort of following this whole thing when he said it on friday and then sort of it took the republicans about five days, took romney about five days to figure out how to take advantage of this, that's a separate story about the romney campaign i think

right now, but it was funny. it hit me and sort of this is the divide between the two parties. which is, this individualism on the republican side. >> right. >> and democrats saying you know what, there's a little more of a collective here. you can't -- and there is this -- they're going for -- >> time out. did you just say collective that's what we're about? >> what's wrong with you? >> mika -- >> that is the divide right here. >> mika just said -- >> what is wrong with you? >> because we're not about collectivism. >> half this country by the way -- i think half this country believes we are. >> okay. >> oh, my god. >> and half this country doesn't which is why -- >> joe, you're being naughty and you know it. >> we're at an ideological split. >> collectivism. i don't want to take the next job to what political philosophy that encompasses. >> silly. >> the word society. >> it's wrong to say collective -- >> society. >> hey, joe -- >> work together. we -- because we don't go out

and build roads by ourselves. >> and by the way the president -- >> by the way -- >> in front of my house, you build a road in front of your house. we don't do that. we work together. >> joe, politically the president knows this was a damaging comment. >> horrible comment. >> he's going to apparently trying to walk this back today. >> why don't -- let's get real for a minute. >> yeah. >> we all -- we know, because we've just been sitting here having a conversation about our frustration about, you know, are we going to have a serious conversation in the country at a time when we're in economic peril and societal peril while we have this opportunity gap, be we don't know about romney and his taxes, we don't know what we don't know about issues around bain, we -- >> we don't know how the -- going to save medicare. >> we know the president made a comment that we're sitting here talking about but he's also someone who -- the product of a single mother raised by his grandparents who's worked hard who has also achieved some economic success and is now the

president of the united states. we have all these things going on. the bottom line is, as i've said on this show before, policy and issues matter. let's talk about what we do know. let's talk about issues around health care, repealing the health care bill or not repealing the health care bill. we've got a candidate says he wants to pull it back and repeal it to replace it with what? a bill that looks like the one he signed in massachusetts. we know what he stands on on issues of education and the fiscal cliff. >> all i'll say, your point about working hard and people making choices to do so and i'm telling you what he's talking about is that this country gives you the tools to actually succeed and that's not a bad thing. >> no, it's not. >> okay. >> he's only one man. >> oh, god! chuck todd, thank you so much. >> chuck, thanks. >> this is -- no. i think this is good. this is the divide in all honesty the most important question we asked on the msnbc/"wall street journal" poll, do you think government should do more or too much? looks like a presidential ballot, 49/47. >> i think following up on what

chuck said that is the divide. you can say collectivism or whatever you want to say versus individualism and by the way, this battle has been fought since thomas jefferson and alex der hamilton were ripping each other's eyes out. is it about individualism, about more of a governmental collectivism. >> why don't we embed that conversation in the issues? >> all right. eugene and melody, stay with us. we're going to be going back to this conversation, but we're also, obviously, following a big story out of aurora, colorado, which is still developing at this hour. the white house has released a statement from president obama on this morning's shooting rampage at a crowded movie theater outside denver. and i are shocked and saddened by the horrific and tragic shooting in colorado. federal and local law enforcement are still responding and my administration will do everything that we can to support the people of aurora in this extraordinarily difficult time. we are committed to bringing

whoever was responsible to justice, ensuring the safety of our people, and caring for those who have been wounded. as we do when confronted by moments of darkness and challenge, we must now come together as one american family. all of us must have the people of aurora in our thoughts and prayers as they confront the loss of family, friends and neighbors and we must stand together with them in the challenging hours and days to come. we're going to bring you the latest information from the scene throughout the morning. up next, the moderator of "meet the press," david gregory joins us. you're watching "morning joe," brewed by starbucks. now you can apply sunblock to your kids' wet skin. neutrogena® wet skin kids. ordinary sunblock drips and whitens. neutrogena® wet skin cuts through water. forms a broad spectrum barrier for full strength sun protection. wet skin. neutrogena®. for full strength sun protection. welcome to hotels.com. summer road trip, huh? as the hotel experts, finding you the perfect place is all we do. this summer, save up to 30%, plus get up to $100 on us.

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26 past the hour. a live look at capitol hill here in washington, d.c. here with us now, moderator of msnbc, david gregory. good to have you on the program this morning. >> good morning. >> ann romney, i would like to show this, haven't seen this. the pressure is building for mitt romney to release some of his tax returns. yesterday, his wife ann pushed back when asked about it.

>> you should really look at where mitt has led his life and where he's been financially. he's a very generous person. we give 10% of our income to our church every year. do you think that is the kind of person trying to hide things or do things? no. he is so good about it. when he was governor of massachusetts didn't take a salary in the four years. you know, he is a person -- >> why not show that then? why not release? it's a moot people and people can move on. >> there are so many things that will be open again for more attack and you want to give more material for more attack and that's really -- that's just the answer. we've given all people need to know and understand about our financial situation and about how we live our life. >> so there's a new "usa today"/gallup poll, should romney release additional tax returns. 54% say yes, 37% say no. david gregory, did ann romney help or hurt the situation? >> i don't think she's helping at all. what they're attempting to do is

put more context around his wealth, around his giving, around even his tax code in a sort of oblique way. one of the reasons he paid a certain tax rate was because he does tie to the mormon church. i don't think people realize the level he does that which is an important part of who he is and how they live their life. the difficulty is, i mean we're doing gallup polls about whether -- the more he's talking about what's in his tax returns that public is not seeing the less we're talking about real solutions that we ought to be dealing with which includes tax reforms, entitlement spending and immigration and these other issues. they should have known this was an issue that was going to build. in 1994 he leaned on then senator kennedy to say come on, be transparent, show us your tax returns and in that particular senate race he was willing to offer three years. romney was at that time. so i just think this just sort of builds up more tension and i don't know that the media lets go of this and certainly democrats are not going to. >> gene, the candidate's wife,

regardless, just don't get them involved in stuff like this. they should have prepared her better to just go out and say, listen, that's -- that's up to my husband and the campaign, but let me tell you the mitt romney i know. >> exactly. >> he's generous. >> should have said. >> gives 10% to the church, been involved in charities, most honorable man i know, blah-blah-blah. you have to ask the policy questions to the campaign. >> yeah. to go beyond that and say -- >> that did not work at all. >> that's all you're getting and need, that was not helpful. >> doesn't help to say, if we reveal this information, just going to be fodder for -- well, but -- >> why? why is that the case? >> giving a little bit more power to it that maybe it deserves. >> yeah. >> the quote you people have all you need -- i'm serious. that is -- she should have been prepared better and that's also -- it just seems -- it feeds into the -- >> what do you do at this point?

>> i don't release the tax records. i just don't. listen, there are several years, obviously, where he probably didn't pay any taxes. >> yeah. >> there are also offshore accounts, there are things in here that he would be defending from now through the end of the campaign. and if i'm mitt romney, and i know there are things in my tax returns that are going to give the president fodder and feed into this preexisting narrative that followed me throughout the republican primary -- >> worse than looking like different rules apply to you, especially now? >> he's not playing by his father's standard. >> he's not playing -- >> he has released what he's needed to release. nobody has suggested he's done anything illegal. nobody suggested he's done anything unethical. >> the other concern, narrative that doesn't go away. that he's very wealthy and has the appearance of playing by different rules, not doing anything wrong by the way, but playing on a different level of

rules that narrative will follow him through election day. the obama team will make sure of it. to your point, you know, i guess -- i don't know for you or against you. if you don't release or if you release this follows you through. if you release it -- >> but what i do, david, and i've done things like this in campaigns before, every time an attack came and i knew an attack was going to come i would have a response so tough, that they knew that every time they brought it up, you want to bring up my tax returns, that's great, you haven't suggested i've done anything illegal, know i played by the rules, worked hard, i played fair, mr. president, you just don't want to talk about and then go about this. you just don't want to talk about the debt commission you threw under the bus, the fact that you don't have the guts to take on medicare, you don't want to talk about the fact that you don't -- you don't have an answer to how we save -- i mean, you've got to do things like that. but this romney campaign has -- >> to your point -- >> the romney campaign has not -- they've been flat footed. >> i was going use the same

phrase. flat footed. this happened during the republican debates. i used to look at the tv and go lean into the fact you have been successful and this is about the american dream. david's point -- >> cheering for romney? >> no. i mean just as a matter of simple strategy and tactics. but i think part of what this does is, the different rule issue, plays into this opportunity gap and the mobility issue and how we're handling investments and the fiscal cliff. it does play into a set of policy issues and the obama campaign will continue to lift that up as well. >> mitt romney is a quantitative guy. those poll numbers, 54/37, ought to release the tax returns. he must think that the poll numbers are in the question, are you appalled by what's in mitt romney's taxes that those numbers be worse than 54/37 before he's going to release them. >> the past three or four weeks, people hammering him nonstop on this, bain, when he left bain, the cbs/"new york times" poll

comes out and it's not having an impact. >> if he could put out the taxes and say nothing you know there's nothing there -- he would. therefore i would -- >> i just think there are years that this rich guy paid zero in taxes, and he did it legally, and everybody else that had his money would have done the same thing. warren buffett would have done the same thing. >> release them then. because a lot of other rich people have done what you've done, mitt romney, is what people will feel and be over with. >> but the thing is, it does though, it's okay to be rich, americans like rich people. >> yeah. >> they actually do. what they don't like, though, and people have been bringing it around the table, the idea, you talked about it, somebody plays by a different set of rules. >> either way, he's doing that. >> if he releases the tax returns, and he paid zero, let's say, for a couple years. >> right. >> it looks like he's playing by a different set of rules. >> he is. >> that's more damaging than him

saying, i've released what i'm going to release and everything i've done is legal and ethical. >> i guess. i assume you'll be talking about this on snoo"meet the press." >> tim pawlenty as romney is poised to make a decision that will change his campaign. >> this will be good. >> and davidaxelrod. one of the things i want to address on the show we are in this phase in the summer of who will win the political biography war. we're not addressing the issues. >> exactly. >> supposed to help turn the country around. i think both campaigns are trying to -- who's going to win the political biography for voters. >> david gregory, thank you. melody barnes, thank you as well. great show on sunday. >> found out she was rooting for mitt romney. >> let me be clear, obama former policy adviser. >> what media does for you. >> right. >> let me be perfectly clear. great conversation. let's go back to willie geist in new york with the latest on the colorado mass shooting this morning. willie? >> we've got pictures coming out in nbc here of the apartment building in north aurora,

colorado where the suspected gunman who opened fire at a movie theater killing at least 14 people is believed to live. police are checking this because the suspect telling them he has some sort of explosive device at his home. he told them also that he had some in his car outside the movie theater. that vehicle was checked and they found no explosives. you're looking at here is pictures from north aurora, colorado. the apartment of the suspected gunman in the shooting where at least 14 people have been killed and 50, at least, have been sent to area hospitals. some of them in critical condition. we're going to have a live report from nbc's justice correspondent pete williams, he has new detail about who this shooter is. we'll be right back. ♪ [ male announcer ] we believe small things can make a big difference. like how a little oil from here can be such a big thing in an old friend's life. purina one discovered that by blending enhanced botanical oils into our food,

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we're back with more on the breaking news out of aurora, colorado. on the phone officer fena of the aurora police department. thanks for taking a few minutes out of a terrible morning for you to brief us. want to begin by asking you how many do you have as the latest death toll officially? >> right now we still believe it's 14 dead, 50 injured, but we think that number could be lowered to 12 dead. >> really? >> yeah. thankfully. >> well, that would certainly be welcome news. of those 50 injured, how many in critical condition at this hour? >> i don't have conditions on

them and with the injuries we're not even sure if they were all gunshot wounds, injuries related to trying to get out of there. injuries from whatever. those are some of the things we're trying to find answers to. >> on the death toll, we had at first at 10, then jumped to 14, we heard that four had died at the hospital. what leads you to believe that number will go back to 12? >> i don't know why, but my chief just told me it's down to 12. you know, the early information there were possibly ten dead inside the theater and another four died at local hospitals, i can't even guess as to why it was lowered to 12, but literally he told me that right as you and i were starting this. >> you're revising the death toll to 12. >> correct. >> describe for me if you could the scene your officers found when they responded to that movie theater about 12:40 a.m. local time. what did they see? >> chaos. it's a theater with 16 theaters

and again, i don't know for sure f there was movie going in all 16 or how many theaters, i don't know how many people were in, but numerous people. my understanding is that the shooting started and actually lasted for quite a while. what that means i don't know, but that was described to us, that it lasted for quite some time. i can tell you that this theater is about three blocks away from our police headquarters and even the witnesses described our response as almost immediate. i'm guessing in less than a minute our officers were on scene, found the suspect at the rear of the theater near his car, with a gas mask, a rifle and a handgun. he offered no resistance. when he was contacted and taken into custody. that's when he made some sort of spontaneous estimastatement abo bombs or bomb making materials

at his apartment. as far as the initial officers that showed up on scene, because they were there so quick, they literally were transporting injured to the hospital themselves and i was listening to the radio, i think i heard one car, couple cars had two to three victims in their car and rushing them to the hospital. they weren't waiting for the ambulances. >> officer, have you been able to figure out yet what was in the canister we've heard reported at least one, maybe two canisters thrown by the suspect in the theater before he started shooting? do we know what that was? >> we don't. we don't know if it was one canister that had gas and was described as hissing. we don't know if it was some type of explosive device. we don't know if it was a gas canister and explosive device. you know, again, it was -- the chaos inside and everybody trying to get out, is the conflicting information as to what happened. keep in mind, you know, dark theater, echos, it would be hard

to tell. >> officer frank fania, we appreciate you taking a break. we'll let you get back to work and check in with you again. officer fania telling us on the air here, revising the death toll according to his chief at the aurora, colorado, police department, down to 12. it had been 14 and as high as 14 according to some reports, but the police chief in aurora, colorado, telling us on the air now the death toll at 12. we'll be right back on "morning joe." sorry. sore knee.

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brzezinski. thanks for being on this morning. >> dr. brzezinski, front pages of all the major papers this morning talking about the conflict in syria. syria rebels seize keyboarder crossings. syrians flee, reports "the wall street journal," as the regime hits back and "new york times" lead story about the border posts falling into the opposition hands. this story is moving quickly. >> it is. if it's resolved by the syrians in whatever fashion, this may be, prediction of the future, then that's fine. but i'm fearful it might go on for a while and might be sticky and might spread. >> and where would it spread? >> well, it would spread to iraq, perhaps to jordan, jordan is not politically solid anymore, and that would make for a bigger conflict in the region immediately and in the background, there is iran.

it could involve iran as well. if we tried, one, we could have gotten the turks and saudis to do it and we could have backed them. they would be like the libya solution. neither the turks and in particular the saudis are ready to do the heavy lifting. we could have tried to work in and out with the russians and chinese, but we rushed the gun. we announced in advance what the outcome has to be, assad has to go. they weren't prepared to go along and we may be polarizpola. that's not a good development. or we can try to do it alone. if so how? one more war? precisely spreading dynamic context. these are not good alternatives. >> what would you suggest president obama do, given these -- >> be patient. i be patient, be cool. still try to engage, if we can, the russians and chinese because that would put the maximum pressure on assad. but we're not going to do it if we abuse them in the u.n.

use language such as we're disgusting by their behavior and their role is pitiful and so forth. we're pushing the russians and chinese together. that's not good in a larger sense. so i don't think it's being handled terribly well. but we can still, i think, recoup if we are persistent and patient. one thing we should not be doing is should not be doing it alone. if we do it alone who's going to be with us? the french and british, formal colonial powers, maybe the israelis, that's not going to help to stabilize the middle east. >> eugene? >> are we beyond the point where the turks and the saudis, who clearly would have an interest in neutralizing syria's relationship with iran, assad refweem geem, saudis don't like the regime very much, are we beyond the point where we could involve them in a military solution? >> we're not but there is a bit of a problem with

syrians, sort of anti-assad coalition. it's kind of faceless. it's not clear who's in it, who leads it, how much support it has. the analogy with libya is misleading. in libya, immediately when the crisis started, half the territory of the country was in the hands of the rebels and they had established, visible leaders, leaders known to many libyans. i don't know. i tried to follow this. i have no idea really who the opposition truly is. and then in the background, we e can't lose sight of the fact that this is also a religious thing. the asaudis are interested in sunni domination in syria. among some of the saudis are very religious extremists. it's all very messy and if it's messy you better think before jumping into it. >> sam? >> one of the big concerns is that if it is prolonged and it does get worse they will start

using worse weapons. there's been reports that we are looking into what kind of actions we can take to take out the weapons and whether or not the israelis can do it. dr. brzezinski, what does the united states -- is there anything the united states can do to take out weapons and what role does israel play with respect to oversees our strategic interests or helping execute our strategic interests? >> first of all, israel has its own interests rather than ours. it is in israel's interest for syria to be weak. in that sense i don't think the israelis are weeping over what's happening in syria. of course they are alarmed if it becomes an explosion in the region as a whole. as far as taking weapons are concerned, what weapons are we talking about? there is loose talk about bacterialogical weapons. if we start doing that we better be 100% certain we can do it surgically and cleanly. if not we are unleashing

something horribly dangerous in the region. i think putin-- patience is nee >> how long are we talking about? >> what's the rush? >> people are dying. >> quite frankly. are we better off having the conflict still boil within syria? are we better off if it spreads in the region? >> you responded to sam's question, what's the rush and i don't know if you heard sam's follow up which was that people are dying. 17,000 to 20,000 now. >> look, not to be opportunistically moralistic -- >> that's what the united states foreign policy has done all the time. >> it's not. >> yes, it is. >> what have we dean, tell me. >> we allowed rwandans to die. >> so we don't do anything. you're making my point.

>> in europe -- >> you're making. >> when it was in bosnia. >> you're making my point. >> i'm not. >> the same administration let millions die in africa do not allow -- decide to rush in in europe. >> you're not following logically the point i'm making. >> yes, i am. >> which is we are being differentiated. you have made the point. we care if it's in europe. not if it's in rwanda. what is the basis for caring? when it's convenient to us, close to us, people like us? >> or if there is oil. >> my point. you're making my point again. >> we look back at rwanda with deep regret. that's a belief that we should have intervened. >> tell me how you will intervene. you can send american troops from where and how? >> for the sake of playing devil's advocate is there a minimal set of standards at which point we say, okay, now it is appropriate? >> we have an international

community that's supposed to set the standards. we are not setting the standards for the world. if we don't have the international community really with us and particularly heavy lifters with us, what are you going to do it with? plunging into this problem and making it worse, perhaps getting the iranians involved, spreading it to iraq, destabilizing jordan. are we really contributing to the saving of lives? >> that's a good question. >> mark halprin? >> yes. >> we were told you had a question. now is the time to ask it. >> there's a moment of silence. >> i didn't know if you were asking me a question or wanted many e to ask a question. >> i have a question for you. would you like to ask a question? >> yes. dr. brzezinski, you have seen the intersection between politics and foreign policy over many election cycles. governor romney is about to go on this international trip. what do you expect impact to have on the campaign and what

advice would you give governor romney about how to handle himself overseas at a time an incumbent president is dealing with so many crises at home. >> he ought to act as a responsible statesman who takes the national interest to heart and represents it and not campaign abroad. there are many issues involved which are controversial and tough involving the countries he's visiting. it's not wise to extend the presidential campaign to foreign countries. but to assert his capacity for leadership. that's what he has to demonstrate and inspire confidence abroad. >> i want to clarify our back and forth. you said let's not use this opportunistically and i said, that's what the united states does. that's what we have done. so there is a problem. i think we need moralistically if a million people dying in

africa does not trigger a military response, should 10,000 or 20,000? how do we balance just the morality of when we send in troops? >> well, perhaps the answer -- and that's a fair question. perhaps the answer is we don't have a mandate to resolve all of the internal problems of foreign countries. and more importantly perhaps even, we don't have the capacity. >> the ability, right. >> tell me how we are going to wage war effective uhly in syria. are we going to deploy more troops? from where given the commitments in afghanistan, the lingering problems in iraq, not to mention the domestic sense of anxiety about war and expenses. we have to face reality. this is why working more patiently to have an international response would have made more sense. i think we rushed the gun on the russians and on the chinese. the moment they disagree with us publically we started more or less abusing them

internationally. look at the comments we have been making, at a high level. i don't think that's the way to proceed unless we live in an age where america can impose its will. that's no longer the case. >> when chuck todd was here earlier commenting off senator mccain's comments about the president doing nothing said republicans he went to on the hill were not with the senator, were not with lindsey graham, joe lieberman. we heard it six months ago privately on the hill talking about afghanistan. and the fact we thought the president was not being realistic. republicans would tell us behind closed doors we agree with you. we just can't cross senator mccain publically. >> and you don't hear mitt romney say let's go into syria, criticizing the president. >> there is a growing, i think, belief, dr. brzezinski, a growing understanding among the american people -- and i think

the past decade has taught the american people that there are now limits to what america can do across the globe. >> i think we missed an opportunity when ananne formulated his proposal to have an international supervised election and we a announced that assad has to go. i think it would have been smarter to say, yes, that's a good idea. let's have international supervised elections. assad can run and the opposition can put up a candidate. we would have had a better chance of getting the russians and chinese to do it with us. we may still be able to do it, but it's very late now. we have to change course, so to speak. we cannot make proclamations from here that someone has to go. >> yeah. >> then things get rough and we don't follow up because we don't have the power. >> the book is -- >> the president said twice qaddafi had to go. it put us in a difficult position if qaddafi survived

there were ramificationramifica. the president of the united states can't say somebody has to go as a leadleader, unless he's certain that person will be removed from the stage. >> in the next hour a different point of view, senator john mccain joins us. "strategic vision," dad, dr. brzezinski, thank you very much. >> it's been great. >> come back soon. >> very good. >> coming up, the latest on the shooting in colorado. much more "morning joe" in a moment. it's a golden opportunity... to experience the ultimate expression of power -- control. ♪ during the golden opportunity sales event, get great values on some of our newest models. this is the pursuit of perfection.

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here with us now on the set in washington, republican senator from arizona and former presidential candidate, senator john mccain. very good to have you on the show this morning. >> thank you. >> we'll get your thoughts on syria coming up, especially after the interview with my father. first, we have been following the news of a shooting in colorado. willie geist has the latest. >> we have new information. a 24-year-old man is in police custody in aurora, colorado, after police say he walked into into a movie theater sometime after midnight. "the dark knight rises," the midnight showing, walked into the theater dressed in black, according to reports, with a gas mask on, stood in front of the screen, dropped one, perhaps two con st canisters of gas, maybe a smoke screen, and began firing indiscriminately. the report we got from the aurora, colorado, police department was the death toll is now 12. we were reporting earlier it was

at least 14 people. while we were on the phone with the officer 15 minutes ago he got in his ear from the chief of police in aurora that the number is 12. it's been revised down according to the aurora, colorado, police department. at least 50 people injured, some critically, taken to various hospitals around the area. aurora is about ten miles east of denver. a 6-year-old being treated at children's hospital. if you can believe it, a 3-month-old admitted to university hospital with a gunshot wound. we don't know that baby's condition. a 3-month-old being treated for a gunshot wound. we have at this moment 12 dead, according to the aurora, colorado, police department. at least 50 injured being treated for varying degrees of injury. some are in fair condition, some in critical, mika. we'll bring you news as we have it. they have arrested the 24-year-old male. we are getting more information about him. we don't yet have a motive. we'll let you know as soon as we

do. >> thank you. joining us here in washington, republican senator john mccain. we have been having a contentious conversation about syria throughout the morning. >> i was watching part of it, yes. >> i heard your comments you made yesterday. i guess i would like to start by asking what would you suggest the president do now? i know you don't agree -- >> first, speak up. second, ronald reagan used to do that with enormous effect. just ask nathan shranski. we could provide arms and assistance to syrian rebels, other countries are doing that. we can show american leadership and get a coalition to establish a safe area where they could train and stop the massacre that's going on. other countries are waiting for american leadership. i know that because i travel to the region. joe, you keep talking, in all due respect you keep talking

about libya and qaddafi. he was responsible for the deaths of how many americans and the bombing of pan-am 103. he bombed a disco in berlin. july 7, the people of libya had a free, fair election which the islamist party finished a distance second. that's because internationally we weighed in without the loss of a single british, french or american member of the military. they removed one of the most evil dictators. i was there for their election. do you know how many people i met who had their sons, husbands, fathers, family members slaughtered by qaddafi? to say that libya is a failure, actually it's a great success. >> first of all, just because you brought me up, the reason i bring up libya is because of the inconsistency in the president's policy. if the president preaches morality in libya when fewer people die, where is he when

17,000 people die, maybe close to 20,000. >> right. >> i know you're busy in the morning saving america, but i have not been harping on libya except for the fact -- >> sure. >> that's the point i was trying to make to dr. brzezinski. if we are going to use morality as an excuse we have already passed the libya standard. >> sure. >> what's the president's explanation for that. >> sure. also, by the way, in egypt, mubarak was going to go. no doubt he was going to go. we have to play the hand we are dealt. after the iron curtain fell, those countries had great difficulties as well. the difference i have with dr. brzezinski, who i respect enormously, our interests are our values and our values are our interests. we do what we can and we can't always do it. help people who are struggling for freedom and democracy. >> is that your --

>> our values are where we can. by the way, what i want to do in syria has not to do with a single american boot on the ground. i watched your discussion. there was an assumption that joe lieberman, lindsey graham and i want american boots on the ground. we don't. >> how? >> establishment of a a safe zone, providing arms and equipment to the rebels. and the longer it goes on, the more likely islamists do intervene in it. i heard the same argument about libya, about bosnia. we don't know who they are. we can't intervene. we can't change it. by the way, when speaking of bosnia, bob dole and i and a few other republicans stood up supporting president clinton. so the fact, as chuck todd said, maybe republicans aren't supporting us. we are going to do what we think is right. by the way, the republican house, i respect, admire and love them. they passed a resolution saying

we shouldn't intervene in libya. look uh how that turned out. >> let's talk about syria's opposition. you are right. you never know exactly who the opposition is. but in this case isn't it even murkier than usual because assad has been a tyrant and his father was a tyrant that you haven't had opposition groups. >> you don't have benghazi, a safe area where we can train and equip. >> where would that be? >> on the turkish/syrian border probably. one of the reasons why we don't know as much as we do is because of that fact. these people are being massacred. i have not only met with their leadership, but, joe, i have met -- joe lieberman and i met in a refugee camp. people who have been tortured. people whose family members have been killed before their eyes, young women who were subject to

gang rape and defectors saying that's assad's instruction and policy. >> how many can we say that about? >> not one where the level of violence is what's going on here. i believe qaddafi's days are numbers, but they cry out for american leadership. >> what's the test? >> it doesn't mean american casualties. >> what's your test of when we go into countries, we don't go into countries. obviously the american people are exhausted by a decade of war and there are limitations to fighting power. you know the costs of war. you understand the cost of one deployment after another deployment after another deployment. we are talking about syria now. we may be talking about another country. we can only do so much. >> right. we are not talking about american military intervention with boots on the ground. that would be not only not productive. it would be totally counter

productive. >> you're not talking about american military intervention with boots on the ground. are uh you talking about american action alone? >> no, of course it has to be with the other countries. >> how do we get them to help us? >> well, they would combine with us now. >> we're not getting anywhere. >> of course we are. the saudis now providing arms, the cutters are providing arms for them. everybody in the region says we need american leadership. and they will obviously do the right thing, a coalition of the willing. >> you're not suggesting we act alone? >> oh, no. we can't. we couldn't. possibly because when we are talking about the safe area it would have to be turkey along with us. >> so -- >> so, joe, there are times we can't intervene. president clinton, much to his credit, helped save muslims in bosnia, in kosovo. he said his greatest regret is we didn't stop what happened in

rwanda. i'm not sure how you could have done that. if we can, we should do things that our interests and our values. >> so let's talk about assad and the position he's in now. some americans might make the argument that the chain of events have begun and it looks like assad is going to go. it looks like the people are going to stand up and drive out this son of a tyrant as well. isn't that all the more reason for the united states to step back and let the syrians do it themselveses? >> well, there are 17,000 or 20,000, depending who you talk to, that have already been killed. i don't know how many tortured, wounded, raped. don't you think it is in our interest to bring it to a conclusion which we could through intervening in the way i described? the same way we brought the libyan conflict to an earlier

conclusion than it was when we got rid of qaddafi? it seems to me, and also if you want to have influence post fall of qaddafi then helping people, i can tell you the people of libya are grateful. in the arab world today, they used to burn american flags. now they are burning russian flags because of what russia is doing in the security council. >> what does the fall of assad mean strategically, regardless of whether we do it your way or we do it the way that i might prefer. we both can agree, can't we, the fall of assad, the house of assad in syria would be a remarkable development for this country's foreign policy. positive. >> absolutely. general madus, commander of our central command in the area said it would be the greatest blow to iran in 25 year. tensions with iran are dramatically escalating. they lose syria, they lose

hezbollah and lebanon has a chance to be free from that. >> can you explain to the viewers who may not follow it as closely the nexus, long term nexus between iran and syria and what it allows iran to do across the middle east? >> well, obviously syria has been a close ally of the only arab country now that's been a close ally of iran, a persian country. through syria, they have been able to support hezbollah, a terrorist organization which has 50,000 rockets aimed at israel. in fact, hezbollah now runs the government of lebanon. and if assad falls they lose syria and they obviously lose that connection. it would be a huge blow. i don't know how hezbollah would react, but over time they are doomed to failure because of that. the people of lebanon are very sophisticated, cultured people. they don't want hezbollah running their country, as you know. it could be a huge strategic

blow to iran. we haven't even talked about this. iran, this latest killing of the israelis and they are ratcheting up some of the things they might do in the region. they are capable of acts of terror throughout the world as they have proven here in washington when they tried to assassinate the saudi ambassador. these are interesting, dangerous times we are in. >> i'm sure we want to talk the campaign and tax returns and whatever else. can we turn to afghanistan briefly. >> i don't know if you know this, we talk about afghanistan a little bit. >> i confess, i watch you all the time. >> oh, my god. >> what a horror. >> between you and dr. brzezinski, completely polar opposite, you both ought to talk about uh how i drive you crazy every morning. >> we had a congressman from south carolina on -- there goes my ear piece. he told an incredible story. as it pertains to afghanistan.

he was at a vfw hall. big guy on a motorcycle, completely outsized him by four times said, come on over here. he comes over and he goes, my son has been to afghanistan three times and he's going back. you've got to support a draw down, bringing the boys home. supporting our troops is supporting a draw down and trying to get our men and women home. is there a growing voice within your party even on capitol hill? we hear it behind the scenes from republicans that this is becoming a very difficult argument to -- >> of course. we are withdrawing and the president announced we'll be out by 2014. i mean, there's been a dramatic draw down. in the view of some of us the draw down was too rapid. all we have talked about is withdrawing rather than succeeding. there are two major problems remaining in afghanistan. one is the corruption that reaches the highest level of

government. the other is the pakistani military support for the hakani network who are killing americans. that grates badly with americans who see us supporting, providing aid and assistance to pakistan and their i.s.i. supporting the network responsible for the deaths of americans. please don't forget at the end of the day it was in afghanistan that the attacks of 9/11 began. we don't want afghanistan to return to a state where that could happen again. by the way, the taliban are deeply unpopular in afghanistan. >> on the point you were making about syria and that there was a little bit of an argument here as well -- >> never. >> if you look at afghanistan now and you look at, for example, the state of afghan women and how they are treated, punished, tortured for normal -- >> yes. >> it hasn't really -- i don't

know what succeeding means. we're not going to leave there having changed that place dramatically. >> well, what i believe can happen, although the problem with announcing withdrawals all the time is that countries in the region then believe we are leaving and then accommodate or try to accommodate for our departu departure. there is a famous anecdote about the american interrogator and the taliban prisoner says, you have the watches, we've got the time. that's one of the beliefs. we're going to be gone and they have to adjust. but believe me, the afghan people do not want the return of the taliban. it is a myth. they want women's rights and want to educate their children and young women as well. the question is are they going to be able to? >> you didn't like the president's timeline. we have been there 11 years.

if you were elected what would you say? >> i would have had 40,000 in the surge instead of 30,000 and wouldn't have announced withdrawals that early. hopefully the strategic partnership agreement that we have concluded with karzai will give them a sense of predictability and stability. but, mika, one thing i can assure you of is american troops will be leaving. so congressman mulvani can tell that father that. yet at the same time, we have never had a higher quality men and women serving in the military than we do today. >> it's remarkable. >> and they are beaten down. the three, four tours of duty have had an impact. >> it's remarkable what they have done under the worst of circumstances. now to domestic politics. >> ask about the tax return. >> i will ask that second. [ snoring ] >> how excited are you that mitt romney is having to deal with this instead of you.

>> it's wonderful. >> actually, as you well know, you miss the excitement, the day to day, being in the arena and the combat. on the issue of the tarks returns, i issued two years. john kerry didn't issue his wife's return. two years is pretty much the standard of tax returns that people should reveal, in my view. i just believe that with the economy stumbling, with all the challenges we have domestically that to focus this attention on tax returns is a waste, frankly of the american voter's time. we should be talking about the issues that are important to them in daily life. >> the senate. approval rating for congress is at an all-time law. >> we are down to paid staffers and blood relatives. >> exactly. so the house passes legislation.

it goes to the senate. it seems in a lot of legislation in the house, you don't agree, but it comes to the senate. it seems like harry reid and we have seen this. on one side you have harry reid basically providing a pocket veto to the president by letting the legislation die. on the republican side you have filibusters for bills they want to kill. nothing is getting done. this has to be frustrating. >> don't forget that what harry is doing on the senate side is what the republicans are doing on the house side. he's forcing votes on issues, paycheck protection, disclose act, all these others that he knows the republicans will block. >> it's all for show. >> it's all kabuki theater and the american people see through it. >> that's happening at the republican house and -- >> oh, yeah. harry's been bringing in forced votes all week on the disclose act and on another bill that clearly is not going anywhere.

because that is their agenda. we are grid-locked. >> why -- >> let me say on the sequestration issue we are having conversations to try to resolve this issue. i have no great optimism but there are many out there who believe the secretary of defense when he says this level of sequestration would devastate our national security. >> why have things gotten worse? i remember in the 1990s bill clinton didn't like the republicans. republicans didn't like clinton, yet we got things done. we balanced the budget four years in a row. welfare reform. bosnia, kosovo. people started working together despite itmpeachment, governmen shut downs. why? >> the polarization. a lot of it has to do with the flood of money that's come into the political campaigns.

you well know negative ads, we despise them but they move numbers. >> they do. they work. >> when they stop moving numbers the politicians will stop running negative ads. that also is polarizing. finally, you were around when the republicans made great victories under president clinton. what's the first thing he did? he called newt gingrich and bob dole to the white house. they sat down and agreed on an agenda. we reformed welfare. we had a balanced budget. >> same thing ronald reagan and tip o'neal did. they fought all day but at night talked as friends. >> maybe it's too late. if this president or romney is elected. i hope either one call it is leadership over and says, here is what we have to do. are you going to tell the american people we are going to get it done or are we going to have grid lock? your choice. >> if we are to save the country from a debt crisis we have to

reform medicare. we have to reform medicaid, social security. i believe we have to spend less on defense moving forward. you may disagree with that. >> we are spending less, by the way. >> also we have to reform the tax code in a way that may offend conservative activists. do you agree? >> not only foend conservative activists but offend incredibly powerful lobbies in town. you and i know in five minutes on the back of an envelope you could sit down, three tax rates, two deductions, home loan mortgages and charity. that's it. 9 out of 10 american people would say, that's great. when you start in on it, the lobbies and special interests come in. we've got to free up the congress from that. again, that's got to be the message of the e election. in the words of chairman mao it's always darkest before it's totally black.

>> senator john mccain, thank you. that's lovely for a morning thought. a sunny outlook. >> almost like a quote your dad would give. >> exactly. before he punched you in the nose. thank you very much for coming. >> thanks for having me. >> very nice to see you. up next a live report with pete williams who has breaking details on the suspected shooter on the deadly rampage outside denver. keep it here on "morning joe." [ male announcer ] ok, so you're no marathon man. but thanks to the htc one x from at&t, with its built in beats audio, every note sounds amazingly clear. ...making it easy to get lost in the music... and, well... rio vista?!! [ male announcer ] ...lost. introducing the musically enhanced htc one x from at&t. rethink possible. i bought the car because of its efficiency.

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at least 12 people are dead, dozens injured in a shooting at a movie theater in aurora, colorado. it took place after midnight local time there, about six hours ago now. we learned the gunman is a 24-year-old white male. our justice correspondent pete williams has more information. pete, what can you tell us?

>> we are told his name is james holmes. he was born december 13, 1987 and lives in aurora, colorado, where authorities are uh now. one of the many strange things about this is that after the shooting he didn't try to run away. he was arrested by the police standing near a car. he claimed that the car and his apartment were both rigged with explosives. they have searched his car and haven't found explosives. the picture you are looking at now is the apartment in aurora, colorado, he said was booby-trapped. you can see they have decided to go in a window of the apartment instead of the door, just in case he was right about the apartment. he was obviously not right about the car. we are told when he entered the theater he came through the theater exit. he had four weapons with him -- a rifle, shotgun and two handguns. he was dressed in black, wearing a mask, a bullet proof vest.

this is the car outside the theater he claimed was rigged with explosives but a thorough search found none. he told them about this and told them about his apartment. that's where they are now. he was also wearing a bullet-proof vest when he entered. he had clearly given it a lot of thought. we have no idea why he did it, what the motive was, why he decided to do this. we are told he was not on any kind of terror watch list, any list of known extremists. he doesn't seem to be -- the aurora, colorado, police say their only previous encounter with him was a year ago in 2011 when he was given a traffic ticket. >> we know you have to run. we'll check back in. thanks for the new information. now back to washington as "morning joe" continues in a moment. s, huh? you know you could just use bengay zero degrees. medicated pain relief you store in the freezer.

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♪ i just don't think the president, by mhis comments, suggests an understanding of what it is that makes america such a unique nation, why people have come here for hundreds of years. it's because this is the land of opportunity. we welcome people here with dreams and say to them, come build it. not come here because government will give it to you. >> 35 past the hour here in washington with us historian and

president of shirley pub ling affairs, the offer of "rendezvous with destiny." craig wrote for politico this, time for mitt romney to reframe the race. it reads, of more immediate concern is romney's tenuous hold over the gop. he is now the weakest presumptive nominee since gerald ford in 1976 and ford had incumbency to help cloak his faults. romney has none of the trappings of power to help him seize control of the convention. he needs to do so with persuasion. he needs to get out on the road for a series of long, thoughtful policy speeches at key republican presidential libraries and other places of gop importance. romney will then have the opportunity to talk about what reagan called a community of shared values, making a strong case for the practicality of conservative governance, not just more blather thrown at

obama. >> craig, you're voicing the frustration that a lot of conservatives have voiced towards mitt romney. >> right. >> i would start by saying -- and it's not a knock on him, but mitt romney is not a conservative. >> no. >> conservatives, real small government conservatives pick that up quickly listening to this guy, don't they? >> i think so. i think, too, his track record has been anything but a conservative track record. i have heard things about the party is too far to the right. ever since reagan we have nominated two bushes, bob dole, mccain and romney all to the left of reagan. reagan made the election big and important. romney is making it small and about small things. that's not a formula for winning. he's got to recast the debate and make it that he understands what conservative governance is and that it's practical and that the problems in washington are not going to be solved in washington. >> why is he -- why isn't he

doing that? >> maybe it would show how not conservative he is. >> i don't think he wakes up in the morning -- when reagan got up, we think about privacy, freedom, individual rights. i don't think mitt romney thinks about those things. that doesn't mean he can't talk about them and at least there was a washington post poll that said 25% of conservatives have doubts about his candidacy. he's got to bring the party together before he can really make the case against obama which is to talk about what he understands and how he would govern as a conservative. >> the problem is he needs to reach out to the conservatives. how does he do it if, unlike ronald reagan, unlike margaret thatcher, unlike other conservatives i have worked with in washington he doesn't have a world view that when you hear the president, and this will irritate mika, but when you hear the president mocking the idea

that you can become more wealthy if you work harder in america, it doesn't ring those bells until three of his advisers say, hey, this is what the president said. let's use this as a line of attack. everything seems so calculated, homogenized. >> you know, that's the problem with the consultants in politics. they have reduced delegates at the convention to one dimensional caricatures of themselves. delegates used to have power and the state chairman used to have power. they used to write important platforms that were serious d s documents that you don't get anymore. you have to break out of the bubble and go with his instincts. mark wants to jump in. >> you say he's the weakest nominee since ford. he's even in the polls, trying to make the issue the president's economic record. republicans did well in 2010 being critical. is it possible thises a winning

formula? >> i would disagree about 2010. i think the tea party and republicans made a case for conservative governance and removing power from washington to send it back to the states. >> with the specifics. >> they made an argument for federalism very effectively. >> there weren't specifics in 2010. governor romney is making the same 10th amendment arguments now on health care, regulation and other issues. >> the fact that they are tied in the polls is more about the weakness of barack obama. more about the weakness of barack obama than it is about the strength of mitt romney. the fact is that the republican party would be -- he's still got to bring the party together before they meet in tampa. >> all right. >> i take a different view of this. >> it's shocking. the guy who writes for the huffington post takes a different view from craig shirley. >> and he's wearing flannel. >> like it? >> a lumberjack. >> i almost wore a madras

jacket. >> my wife picked this out for me. >> well, then we love it. >> you look great. perfect. >> thank you, honey. it's traditional that the primary winner will -- the center with the general election. what you see from romney -- well, what happened after the arizona immigration case was a great example. he had to opportunity where he could have said, maybe i need to moderate my positions on immigration to appeal to the hispanic population. but he didn't do that. it get your call for the practicality of conservative governments but wouldn't it have to be difference? wouldn't it have to be more moderate if he wanted to do the traditional candidate thing? >> i disagree. we go back to the '80 campaign because reagan didn't tack back to the middle after he won the nomination. even with carter he was still adopting jeffersonian philosophy. he went after carter for saying

every problem he's saying is an excuse for another federal program. we need to readjust that we don't need more federal programs. we need more state initiatives and sending power from washington back to the states. that made the '80 election meaningful. it broke up the new deal and created a new government coalition which the republicans are struggling to put back together. >> you think he needs to be bolder and different. >> big and bold. >> it cuts against the mar tif. republicans lost in 1976 with the moderate. they won with a fire breathing conservative that horrified the media. they won in 1988 with a conservative vice president. >> there is a good point about '83. >> but really quickly they lost in '92 with a moderate, lost in '96 with a moderate. lost in 2000 with a guy who played conservative. >> one more point about 1988. there was a new york times poll

taken between bush and dukakis and a majority of people who voted for bush said they viewed it as voting for a third reagan term. >> the template in some respects could be obama 2008 where the issue wasn't whether he attacked from being a liberal to a centrist but he wanted to change the paradigm of politics completely. >> that worked for democrats. >> that's what i'm saying. >> it's a different thing. democrats win general elections by running to the middle, calling themselves a new democrat like clinton did twice and like barack obama did. republicans win general elections when running for president by convincing americans they are conservatives. >> my point is not that obama necessarily tacked to the middle in 2008. he tried to change the contours of the game saying we need to get rid of politics. enough middle, left, right. let's think differently. i wonder if that's what you think romney should do. >> there is a practicality to leaping over the current problems. he's caught in the weeds about taxes, bain, this and that and

whatever. he can recast the debate about making it about big things instead of arguing about small things. >> you should write a book about this. >> he's writing four books now. who does that? >> you didn't get to be that successful alone, craig shirley. >> oh, my lord. >> the government -- someone printed the paper. >> first hand accounts from survivors of the shooting massacre near denver up next. we'll be right back. according to ford, the works fuel saver package could literally pay for itself. jim twitchel is this true?

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continues in this incredibly hot summer. we'll see 106 in wichita and oklahoma city. 100 degrees from dallas through the dakotas and denver. they should be around 101 for the high today. of course we are following the developments there with the mass shooting at the colorado movie theater. as far as your weekend forecast goes, we are looking at wet weather. if you're in the southeast you have the best chance of a washout during the afternoon hours. carolinas, georgia, louisiana. that includes today, by the way. if you are joing us from the west coast that's where the cool weather continues from seattle to san francisco. l.a., not bad, they are at 80. by sunday, the drought and heat gets worse instead of better. temperatures jump up to 106 in kansas city by the end of the weekend. new england looks nice after a rainy friday and a cloudy, gloomy start to saturday. we'll leave you with a shot of rockefeller plaza. willie geist will be next with

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he looked so calm when he did it. it was scary. he waited for the bombs both to explode before he even made any move. then after both of them exploded he began to shoot. >> the first shot was in the air. after that he started shooting towards -- >> no specific target. he let loose.

>> what kind of gun did he have? >> looked like a handgun. i couldn't tell. >> it was really loud. he was all black. everything like blended in with him. it was a big gun. it was loud. >> did he say anything? >> he didn't say a word. when he opened the door -- >> we just looked at him. thought he was part of the movie, honestly. part of the show. >> he stared back. no one knew how to react. >> everything was going good until we saw sparks and gas. sounded like strong fireworks. you heard people yelling. actually just a few rows away from me a girl gets upholding her jaw. i guess she got shot. >> some of the witnesses inside the movie theater early this morning in aurora, colorado. they went to see a midnight showing of "the dark knight rises," a new, much anticipated film. about 12:39, 20 minutes into the movie a man walked in through an emergency exit, dropped a couple

of canisters of gas and began shooting indiscriminately. the death toll stands at 12. pete williams confirms the suspected shooter is a 24-year-old man named james holmes. he was arrested outside the theater in the parking lot. arrested without incident. he was standing by his car as police approached him and realized he was the shooter. 50 people wounded when the suspect opened fire. they have been sent to various hospitals around the aurora and denver areas. the youngest victim being treated reportedly just 3 months old. a 3-month-old with a gunshot wound at one of the hospitals. the incident happened after midnight local time during the showing of that film. the shooter wearing all black. a gas mask and a bullet-proof vest kicked in the emergency exit door, set off gas and shooting. you hear the eyewitness accounts.

they said they thought it was part of the show. they thought even the gas in the room was part of the show. then they realized something was terribly wrong when he opened fire. that's the vehicle behind the theater. he had explosives in the car and in his apartment. when police checked the car, he said it was boobie-trapped. now you can see the sun has risen in north aurora, colorado. they are working on his apartment. he claims it was booby-trapped as well. they haven't found evidence of that. suspect carrying an assault rifle and handguns. another rifle was inside the vehicle. his apartment building has been evacuated. being searched. this is a live picture. this is outside the movie theater actually. police say the suspect didn't resist when they arrested him. no evidence of other shooters. president obama was notified at 5:26 a.m. eastern time. he's in west palm beach, florida. he was told by his security adviser john brennan who put out

a statement, as his mitt romney. warner brothers studio sent sympathy to the families and loved ones. warner brothers produced the film and they have cancelled the premiere scheduled for tonight in paris. the death toll this morning as the sun is up at the movie theater in aurora, colorado, at 12 with at least 50 more injured, some in critical condition. we'll be right back. daddy, come in the water! somebody didn't book with travelocity, with 24/7 customer support to help move them to the pool daddy promised!

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we want to thank everyone for joining us today. of course throughout the day on msnbc there will be live continuing coverage on the horrific shooting rampage in aurora, colorado. willie has done a great job throughout the morning on this story. thank you very much. >> mika, we got new information. if there is a sliver of good news we told you about the 3-month-old baby taken to university hospital. the parents just brought in the baby as a precaution given the chaos. we don't know what happened. but the baby didn't sustain a gunshot wound. hopefully the 3-month-old at least will be okay here. >> well, the information about the suspect is still unfolding. we'll watch for that live on msnbc all day today as well. if it's way too early, what time is it? >> it's "morning joe." see you on monday. now stick around for chuck todd who picks up the coverage.