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remarkable book, "columbine" and jill nelson. i want to start with the shooting in aurora, colorado that killed a dozen people and injured 58 others. police went door to door last night informing victim's families. the aurora police say 24-year-old james holmes wore a bullet proof vest and attacked movie goers at a sold out midnight screening. police say all four guns were purchased legally around with 6,000 rounds of ammunition. the assault rifle he used would have been illegal under the

assault weapons ban that expired in 2004. at least three members of the u.s. armed forces were wounded in the shooting. among the few things we know about james holmes are these. police say he is not cooperating with investigators besides telling them his apartment was booby trapped. he was in the process of a phd. we know nothing of his mendel state. the book you wrote about columbine it is a masterpiece. to start off the conversation, we find ourselves sometimes in the business of cable news having air time to fill with not that many facts to fill them with. one of the things that comes across in your book is that the story that we got about what

happened in columbine and the perpetrators of columbine on the day and week and month and became all we knew was the facts wasn't true. what do we think we know that we didn't know and how did that happen? >> most people still believe that we know exactly what happened in columbine, what went on, that it was two loner outcasts as revenge for years of being bullied. not one single thing is true. they weren't part of the trench coat mafia. they weren't outcasts none of that. i thought i was going to go through the first week of newspaper coverage and day by day and see how it happened. i had to go back to the c inn

transcripts of the first hours and you can see it progress where it goes from reporters asking kids open ended questions like did you know the killers, what were they like to more leading questions to like we are hearing they are loners and outcasts. kids who didn't really know them saying yes they were. and then by like hour three it was taken as a given. within the first four hours nearly all the myths were established. once we have the profile in our minds of who they were we went with that and that just became the narrative and it never went away. and journalists covering it actually discovered within the first six months or so that it was all myths.

you can't untell the story. and frankly the public stops listening. there is a certain window of opportunity right now where everyone in america is watching this story. whatever we tell america during this next week or so they will believe until the end of time. >> how do you approach this? the facts that we layed out it is confirmed in terms of the basic facts about him being the neuroscience and phd program seems to be quite academically accomplished but not a lot more than that. >> he was ruthless about the way he did it and he it extensive planning. that is true in almost all of the cases. in this one case it is a little

different when the person is still alive. wi maybe we are in a little less danger here because once that all comes out we are likely to know. >> it is interesting that you brought up the prospect of terrorists from jihadys. i was thinking about the fact that when we came in to talk about this yesterday the first feeling is just horror stricken grief and having read a little bit about the victims it is unbelievable wrenching to conceive of. but then there is also the feeling of a weird rootinization. there is a script for mass shootings in america and their

after math. . they happen around the world. we have more of them here. and they happen with relative frequency. what if all of these had been pulled off by jihadis our reaction would be different about whether we talk about it as being an accepting threat and having a week's debate about gun control. if it was actual -- if the person that was nabbed was sworn to al qaeda we would have this completely different. even if the number killed was the same. >> i will go further.

yes. the terrorism, 3,000 people died in 9/11. car deaths it is 3,000 a week. it is zero tolerance. other deaths especially auto accidents we have tolerance. but the mass killings kind of fit into the islamic terrorist box in that we do put such emphasis on it because of the terror aspect of it. 13 people might die in washington, d.c. in a bad weekend. 13 people die in this particular way we put more emphasis on it. the horror and terror is on a higher level. >> it is a horrible story. that is the nature of news. >> both the media and sort of

public policy try to react to these events on a different level. >> it seems we have a weird acceptance of the ritual of these mass slayings in this country. it is almost just as you talked about creating the idea of the shooters we have this template where we get the balloons, teddy bears, say we are sad, don't mention the nra. and we go back to business as usual until the next shooting. >> that is what is really odd is that these are such horrific crimes but they take place by perpetrator whose look like kids we recognize from our community and take place in such normalized environments whether a movie theater or mcdonalds. they have the ordinary aspect where it happens and then we ignore it. on the other hand they are still

horrific. my question to you, dave, is what is this impetus to find this profile and put it in this neat little box. this is the profile and now we have solved it. >> you were talking at the beginning of cable news, there is really good instinct there. there is strong desire to understand. we want to know why. we're good people who are trying to get to the bottom of that and taking little scraps that tell us nothing. a year or two years from now we are going to have a really complete picture of this guy. we are going to know exactly what he is like. even when they are dead there is a lot of stuff that will come out. we will have this picture. right now we are getting dots like this, tiny specks. and we are having the urge to

put them together and draw a picture from them. you have dots here and here. the picture we come up with is probably wrong. three scraps of data out of 100,000 that is not going to work. >> and to me that gets to the kind of second conversation which is about politics. again, this is now part of the ritual which is so bizarre is that the second order conversation is about policy responses because mass shootings have happened with guns. and we have a country that has way more guns that other democracies for a bunch of other reasons which we can get into. when you are thinking about that, part of that in wrestling to get to why did this happen is one vision of this as essentially a natural disaster. people, there are horrible

people in the world or people who are severely deranged and no explanation for why he did it. and then the other is that there are. if he didn't have the kind of gun he had, if the gaby gifards shooter did not have the extra magazine or if we had a different approach to guns we would see something different. i want to discuss that after this break. [ female announcer ] with swiffer wet

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we were talking about yesterday's shooting in aurora, colorado. we spend a lot of time on the killer and much less time on the victims partly because the killer seems so much more inc p

incomprehensible to us. we have not confirmed that james holmes is actually the killer. he is the one being held in police custody. we have not said the names of the victims. we only have a few released. we have three names, alex sullivan, mckale a. i do want to say their names. these are real people who have lost their lives and family members are suffering. we should be keeping them in our thoughts as we wrestle through the implications of why this should have happened. let me show you a chart that shows gun homicides by country. this is not per capita. japan is a smaller place.

it is orders of magnitude different. the u.s. has a ton more gun homicides. the majority of people who die by guns in america is from suicide. there are more guns suicides than homicides in america. in brazil the u.s. is not number one. there are countries with far more gun violence than we do. i can't help but come to this gun conversation because partly because yesterday morning when we were debating this editorial meeting we were like maybe the guns were legal. maybe he knew someone in the military and stole it. in this case we know he acquired the guns. one of them was an assault rifle. 6,000 rounds of ammunition. and in some ways more bizarre is

the tear gas canisters. it didn't occur to me that -- that is a silly thing to say but it didn't occur to me that you can purchase tear gas canisters. it is for crowd control. on the website there are five star reviews on how they work. it's very hard for me to get my mind around when we think about what the state regulates and what it doesn't. it regulates a lot of things. a car is a dangerous thing. and i don't think we see that as a fundamental impingement on my freedom. it is very hard for me to understand and tim maybe you can help me because you come from a different place on this, why we don't regulate something like an assault rifle. >> there are two reasons. the first is the fundamental principle question of rights. it is the american attitude. i once talked to a cabinet

minister who told me in the history of europe it was occupied and it broke down into two different types of people, rule followers who followed authority and people who bucked authority and didn't like being told what to do and the second group of people got on a boat and came into america. it is built into our cultural dna that we don't like being told what to do and the symbolic idea that we are armed against tyrany runs deep. i don't think you can fight off the atf with a gun. >> if you think the reason we have a second amendment as rooted in originalism then there are two sides of the ledger. one is how many guns do i have and the other is how big is the pentagon. the other side of the equation does not look good. >> one of the things tyranies do

is take away guns. i'm arguing this mostly as a u.s. one of the countries that took away guns was the soviet union. you didn't put up the murder rate in russia. it has low gun ownership rate. studies getting to the factual reason why many don't want to regulate guns because in a place like russia they didn't have guns and the murder rate is by far the highest. there is not a correlation between gun laws and murder or between gun ownership and murder. >> there are two things. studies on these very principles have declined dramatically post 1996 when the republicans in congress managed to squelch off funding for anything having to do with public health and guns. it is true that gun rates and

homicides don't correlate very neatly. having a gun in your home does correlate to the likelihood of a gun induced death in the home largely because of the suicide epidemic that happens of people with guns in their homes and the fact that suicide through gun is a far more fatal way of undertaking suicide and most people that fail in trying to take their own life the first time do not succeed the second time around. we are in the weeds of the public health in this. >> i think that it's just unacceptable that a so-called civilized society would have assault weapons. deer hunters aren't shooting deer with assault weapons and the notion that it is the founding of the nation and protecting ourselves against tyrany. there are so many deaths from suicides and deaths in the homes from accidents.

it is unacceptable. one reason we ubsesz about the identity of shooters is we want to pretend we can box it up and tie it up and understand it and not deal with the real issue is how it happens. peopleegally buy guns. in colorado i think you can buy as many guns as you want. you can buy assault rifles. ammunition on the internet is absolutely unacceptable. the notion that we are protecting ourselves it is our american value, so was slavery. >> one of the things that mass shootings do is there is an experience of gun ownership that has the culture of hunting and protection of your land and then the experience on the west side of chicago which has seen a grisly series of murders this year. areas that have high levels of gun violence where this kind of

horror is happening in smaller microcosms every day or every week. that is part of the two different conversations. i come from new york city and my dad has been involved in gun control activism. that is the conversation that happens. let's talk more about this after the break. trade route to the west, the greatest empires. then, some said, we lost our edge. well today, there's a new new york state. one that's working to attract businesses and create jobs. a place where innovation meets determination... and businesses lead the world. the new new york works for business. find out how it can work for yours at thenewny.com.

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and certain men... find a way to rise above. this is the land of giants. ♪ guts. glory. ram. as soon as i got hit my arm went limp. i was looking at my hand. i thought it was blown off because i couldn't feel it at all or broken in some way. and so i was kind of relieved to see it still attached to my body. >> a victim of the shooting in aurora. we are talking about guns. two things i would say in response to this when we have this debate. american public attitudes on

guns are one thing. it is huge. it is a cliche to say the nra is one of the most powerful lobbies in washington. it is a powerful organization. the democratic party has retreated from gun control. it is not part of the agenda. it is crazy to look at the west wing. it is like every episode of the west wing is about gun control. it was a major issue in this country. one of the ways politics work is if the two parties don't a disagreement on something it is not an issue. we don't have an active debate on it no matter how many kids get killed in harlem. the other thing to throw the final thing in and i will shut up is the supreme court has massively changed the constitutional interpretation of what the second amendment does and the rights. the decision in 2008 said that

you have an individual right to bear arms. it departed from the previous jurispruden jurisprudence. it has the clause about well regulated militia and you have a right to bear arms and struck down a decision in d.c. that has created a whole new landscape for the way we understand the constitution. >> it is relevant. people say don't politicize it. it is a perfectly relevant thing to talk about. the more we talk about it the more we realize that banning guns doesn't lead us towards any of these things. you are saying banning guns and restricting guns and putting rules can limit suicides or a six year old shooting his four year old brother. that might be the case. we are trying to jump from this one killer who had legal guns

killing a dozen people to the idea that you ought to ban guns. >> not the idea that you ought to ban guns. >> that regulating guns will reduce murder. it is not an assumption borne out from the data. your show and melissa's show you guys pride yourselves in looking at data and not working from knee jerk reactions. we had a 2007 national academies of science study and it could not find a correlation between gun ownership and gun crime and between gun laws and gun crime. the cdc had a study where the people walked in and said we need better studies. that didn't find it. we had national academy of science. 2007 was a harvard journal of law paper. and they went ahead and these

guys have been leaning towards liking gun freedom and they went ahead and said again and again when you look at it it would be great if our laws could keep guns out of the hands of people whoever shot these people. >> part of that is a lot of the studies that happened happened in the geographic correlations. in the u.s. we have huge black markets in guns. that ends up becoming the issue. the guns that come from new york don't come from new york city. i have also critiqued a lot of the studies about the methodology of correlating gun crime to availability of guns in that area does not necessarily capture what is happening in terms of the market. what is being lost if we do say you can't have assault weapons. we just like because maybe this

whole not prevent a ton of murders but if someone does want to do something horrible the loss of liberty of that ar-15 is not that big a deal. we do this with other stuff. you can't have a tank. god knows you can't have a surface to air missile. that would be more useful to restrain the tyrany of the american government. that would be more useful than the assault weapon. >> there is no data. it makes no sense. to me to sell assault rifles is ridiculous. they are not necessary. we have police force and security and tons of way people are protected in this culture. to argue that there is no data that proves that guns correlates guns with these crimes that we

shouldn't do anything is absurd. i see the data in my neighborhood and communities in the country where you see the proliferation of guns. if guns weren't available people wouldn't be shooting as many people. >> can i come to the final thing? what did you take away from the book that you did on columbine and the question on this level and the policy about guns? >> the biggest thing was that we didn't understand the killers and we could have done a lot if we had. in that case there were two different types of killers. it was a psych path which we can't do much about because they are wired that way. but the other one was a depressive. most of the mass murders are angry depressives.

and if we address depression in this country and solve that looming problem we would decrease the suicide rate, teenage pregnancy, school dropouts and drug and alcohol and people messing up their lives. without trying because we would help the people who wouldn't go down this terrible road. >> dave cullen, author of the book "columbine." chris jansing is anchoring live from aurora, colorado starting at 3:00 p.m. eastern. a new mitt romney ad takes president obama's words out of context. a $500 cream and now women have made regenerist microsculpting cream also unscented. women love it. in original and also fragrance-free. trick question. i love everything about this country!

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demcrating american business owners. he was making the case for fair taxation in virginia last week. here is what he said in full. >> if you are successful somebody along the line gave you some help. there was a great teacher somewhere in your life. somebody helped to create this unbelievable american system that we have that allowed you to thrive. somebody invested in roads and bridges. if you have a business you didn't build that, somebody else made that happen. >> that's the president. the you didn't build that line referred to roads and bridges and not the businesses themselves. the romney campaign accusing the president of demonizing american workers. here is romney at a campaign stop. >> to say something like that is not just foolishness it is

insulting to every entrepreneur and innovator in america and it is wrong. >> yesterday the romney campaign went on the air with a tv ad that edited the president's words to make it sound like business people didn't build their own business. >> if you are successful you didn't get there on your own. if you have a business you didn't build that, somebody else made that happen. >> the substance that businesses benefit from services like roads and bridges is uncontested. the myth of achievement, the idea that success is a product of individual accomplishment. joining us is betsy stevenson, former chief economist of the labor department. i thought this whole debate was both fascinating and maddening. the point is so benull.

here is mitt romney after attacking the president for his remarks basically saying he is essentially right. >> he goes on to describe the people who deserve the credit for building this business. of course he describes people who we care about who make a difference in our lives, school teachers, firefighters, people that build roads. we need those things. we value school teachers and firefighters and people who build roads. >> you couldn't have a business if you didn't have those things. i really think -- and this is part of something broader that is happening in this election. there is this inclination and i think particularly true on the romney side but both have dual incentives to make this the case to create a vision of the election as a grand titanic clash between two battling ideology. like the one of pure job creator

individualism versus this social democratic welfare statism when we are talking about raising tax rates maybe 8%. that is the thing. and now we are having this debate because of this attack that says -- what are we fighting about? can somebody explain to me? >> romney is trying to stake a clear line between entitlement society. it is fascinating the way it is coming up in the election because it lets a lot of inequality off the hook. he said that pretty blank you can vote for me the candidate of opportunity or vote for the so-called entitlement society. >> what is frustrating is opportunity comes -- he is

describing this idea of opportunity and then the proposal is to cut a lot of opportunity. so opportunity comes from having access to good education. opportunity comes from a lot of services that government decides. it is the opportunity versus this idea of entitlement. the government funds important things. and when i think about the reason we need progressive tax rates in particular is because we do want the government to make investments in people. when they pay off the government should get a share in that just like romney got a share in his investments in bain. when they pay off. the government invested in me. i couldn't have gone through college without school loans. the government decided to fund my program to the national science foundation. >> i think of you as kind of a welfare queen. >> as a result the government

has a right and should be taxing me at higher rates because they made an investment that has paid off. iate couldn't have done that without hard work and without me taking every opportunity that was given to me but if there weren't opportunities to take what kind of opportunities do we have? >> we are talking about infrastructure on lots of different levels expanding from roads and bridges and public schools and then you have your phd subsidy and i have my student loan. as you get further out from the bed rock that romney was agreeing on as far as what infrastructure you have you get a lot of people who sort of the government infrastructure is there and we might benefit from it but it doesn't mean we think it is a good thing. i benefit from white male privilege and i don't think that's a good thing. >> that is why you are the conservative. >> i think my student loan and

mortgage subsidies and the fact i live in washington, d.c. and drives up the value. we know that obama believes that government should do more regulating of business. >> i don't even agree with you -- there are two levels. there is the idea logical conversation that gets to almost tribal politics like i am a job creator and you are a ward of the state. and then there is the question of how this cashes out in terms of policy. i am convinced the republican party this is my hobby horse, i'm unconvinced that a republican party will do less subsidizing. >> i think they will do less but i think mitt romney is one of the last people to sort of talk about this. he believes in subsidizing business as much as almost any

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one of the ways to get more money is by being much more aggressive in getting new market tax credits. what they do is they will provide federal tax credits to enterprises that are investing in certain areas of our state like this one. that is if you will free money to us in massachusetts. >> that is mitt romney touting the free stuff to use his term. money from the federal government for businesses. we are talking about this kind of i think manufactured controversy over a benull statement about the underlying infrastructure that government provides. i do think there is this weird

impulse i find in this election. i can't tell if that is an overcompensation from mitt romney and can't tell if it is because the message of rugged individualism is appealing. you can imagine a campaign that mitt romney ran that was much more pragmatic about poor economic performance. >> i think there is a lot of coded language being used in this election. it is funny how obama becomes the entitlement president but we never hear george bush as entitlement when he was helping the rich. romney is described as the entitlement candidate. i think it is also coded racial language and it's the strategy

in 2012. it is really problematic. it is almost as if the romney people had too much caffeine. the 24 hour news i think jumped on this so fast and romney had to sort of agree with the president. >> they didn't jump on it that fast in the sense that this was on july 5th. no one said anything and then here is the fox business hosts and guests responding to the outrage over this that he would make such a statement. >> small business owners, the president has a new message for you. >> if you have a business you didn't build that. somebody else made that happen. >> i hate toot use the word but that is a near socialist approach to economics. >> he just spit in the face of every american who goes to work every day.

>> i get in a lot of trouble for calling him a socialist. his policies are socialist. >> i wouldn't expect guys in a welfare line to talk about why they have not succeeded and go in the back to smoke a joint while waiting for the number to while waiting for the number to be o attract businesses and create jobs.

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>> no. >> so rocky anderson, former mayor of salt lake city on the line. one of the points i think is that in the midst of this conversation about you didn't build that and the idea that rugged individual success is what makes america great and detached from the government is just the brute fact that everybody is embedded on the system that relies on the state for all kinds of things. mitt romney's whole mission as head of the olympics was to go and get federal money to make sure this thing succeeded. and in fact it provoked this outrage from john mccain who is a scourge of earmarks. this is john mccain talking about olympic port back in 2000. >> for the upcoming 2002 winterlics in salt lake city

that bill sl estimated to $1.3 billion. the olympic games supposedly hosted and funded by salt lake city has turned into an incredible port barrel project for the salt lake city. >> is there any indication that anything is going to change fundamentally? when we talk about crony capitalism and something to your great credit you have written about a ton and without fear of favor across party lines, is there reason to believe that we are going to see some tremendous change in that tax credits for starting new businesses and subsidies under mitt romney? >> romney did the same sort of subsidizing business that obama does and bio tech and green energy. he just like our president mandated that people buy private health insurance.

he supports an ethanol subsidies and energy subsidies. so he does believe or has until recently in that kind of broader infrastructure that obama is talking about. i think that romney's record like obama's record highlights a reason why more liberals ought to be worried about because the one who benefits is the one who can hire the lobbiests or the developers to use mitt romney to bring the money back home. >> what is your feeling about that? this crony capitalist critique that government enterprise are in some unique fashion of the obama administration. the fact that this seems to be the fabric of the system that everybody is embedded with.

>> so i think you just nailed the point is that this idea that it is different, the obama administration is kind of silly to me. the idea that he is overregulating or that he is fundamentally changing business is silly. if you look at the way our system is structured it is structured for the people with the loudest voices to speak the loudest. i think that is true when it comes to allocating money and the regulatory process. we try very hard to think about the costs and the benefits of regulations but there is a real difference when one side has a lot of money to make sure that their particular costs and benefits are heard very, very loudly. and the people who get hurt are the american public because they are usually not represented in these discussions because they are not hiring lobbiests. >> my understanding from going through a lot of reporting of

salt lake city is there are big public investments but a bit of private profiteering that came through. >> of course public money went somewhere. it is so interesting to see the mitt romney then and it's true i did endorse him at the time when he ran for governor of massachusetts because he was a very reasonable, moderate person, completely different from the mitt romney that we are seeing now run for president. it is like night and day. we know that he has changed his position on so many issues or he never would have been able to get elected as governor of massachusetts at the time and now seek the republican nomination. but you can't have it both ways. it is amazing to me that this doesn't catch up with him. people in this country need to understand none of us now have

any idea who the real mitt romney is. what is his core? what would he be like in the white house? to me he has been two very different people. this is hard for me to say because we established a good friendship and supported each other although we recognized we had a lot of political differences. now those differences are massive. >> romney is in the position of running on a resume and not on an economic agenda. we don't know fundamentally what his profound economic vision is. we have amnesia. halliburton no big contracts and the energy meetings held at the white house. that was profiteering and crony capitalism at its height. the point is how do we go forward? the context of the crony capitalism with obama was to say his political supporters were

benefitting from the stimulus money when a lot of it went to tax breaks and building roads. his political supporters were entitled and benefitting from a lot of the stimulus money which wasn't the case. >> both of those things can be true. part of the problem is when you have a campaign finance system like we have that is the background against which everything happens. >> i don't think obama is uniquely giving money in his supporters. his project of growing the government at a faster rate than george w. bush results in those with the best political connections getting their hands on the most money. because the guys who can hire the former members of congress as their lobbiests are not mom and pops. the tax breaks were handouts. the guys who were going to get their hands on the pie are the guys with the lobbiests. >> i think really i don't like the idea that obama grew the

government. we had the worst recession since the great depression. and what was a strategy was to increase government spending and put more money back in people's pockets through increasing unemployment insurance which was done every time we enter recession which is the worst recession. we spent a lot of money to deal with a problem that obama inherited. i don't think you can leap from that and say this is a guy who can build a giant government. he is a pretty small government kind of guy. i think once we get out, completely out of this recession and once we start getting the economy, once the economy looks like it can manage on its own you are going to see the cutbacks. >> and projections in terms of government spending. you see in the outyears and spent in projections.

obviously that is the future. i want to get your thought on this. when we talk about public investments that flow through salt lake city do we do the thing that we want public investment to do. what was salt lake city better off? were there public benefits conferred by the $1.5 billion in taxpayer money that mitt romney helped to get for the area? and is that a testament to precisely the inverse of the point that mitt romney seems to be making? >> there were lasting benefits in salt lake city certainly. our transportation system, the infrastructure, our highways, the light rail system, again, the student housing, the olympic venues, first-rate training facilities. but i think the real question is what is the role of the federal government in these kinds of projects and is it really a

boondoggle for those who end up benefitting in the long term? i just can't imagine anybody saying we're all doing this by ourselves and yet looking to the federal government for this kind of money to cover those kinds of infrastructure investments as well as the important security money that was there because we needed that. there is no question about that going into the largest event since 9/11. >> rocky anderson, thank you for joining us this morning. really appreciate it. [ female announcer ] research suggests the health of our cells plays a key role

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two points i want to make before we go to the next topic. the vast majority of the money that mitt romney acquired for salt lake city came before 9/11 so there was a big security amount of money $240 million that came on september 10th voted through. most of the money was before 9/11 just so folks don't think that 1.5 million was in response to 9/11. i want to offer our condolences to the family of -- alex is a colleague of me. we want to send our condolences. attacking president obama,

mitt romney -- >> i don't know whether you read the story over the weekend there was a story that described a couple of women working in a daycare center. one is a single mom. she has three kids. one full time job and three kids does not make a comfortable life. being middle class in america is getting tougher and tougher. this president's economy is not working for the american people even for those that are employed. >> romney references the piece. the article he mentions uses two women with children, one with a husband and one without to make the case of decline in marriage rates. accounts for much of the growth in equality. in response to the studies showing just 40 years ago the top and middle third incomes have identical family patterns. it show trends showing less 10%

of the births to college educated women occur outside marriage. earlier this year charles murray made a similar case that poverty comes from -- attempting to explain it they turn towards cultural explanations. joining us is the legendary catherine. >> this article spurred a tremendous amount of debate partly because it is at the intersection of two of the things that are i think right in the middle of what we're wrestling with as a culture, the rise in inequality and the family structure. we have conversations about the economy and we have conversations about work life

balance and emerging family structure and the world with a feminist vision. and this article got a lot of response. you wrote a response to the article. i should note that we reached out to jason depaul who we wanted to have but was on assignment. what was your frustration? >> my first frustration with the article was the idea that the new york times buts on the front page it is better to have a college degree and a husband who makes a good living and is a nice guy than be a college dropout with three children you are supporting alone. >> breaking news. >> really. when has this not been the case? i felt that the article was a novel it would be quite interesting. >> jason is a great reporter. >> it had a lot of interesting

details about how both of these women live. behind it and significantly mentioned fairly positively in the article was the idea that this is all about values. people having the one wrong specifically women having the wrong ones. it always comes down to women. men wrap it up. i would like to read a piece about why men father three children and have no intention of living with the mother? it is always why would she do this? why didn't she get married? if she had married this woman is a hero in my view. she gets pregnant. he says don't have an abortion like she was considering. let's drop out. there is a great idea and start a family. well, seven years and three kids later he still hasn't married her and he leaves.

she since then has gotten a degree at a community college. >> i should say this woman who was referenced by mitt romney in that piece comes off as an amazing mom and incredibly hard working. >> she is shafted at every turn. i don't want to rant and rave. i was so struck how thrown back on her own resources she was. long before any of this. for example, she went to college. she was just like that other woman until she got pregnant. the college she went to, william pen university in iowa cost $20,000 a year. it has a freshman year retention rate of 55%. 45% of the kids leave. something is wrong there. these kids are very young. she got pregnant very young. maybe people need a little more

nurturing and help and a little more birth control and a little more of the suggestion that having an abortion is not a shameful thing and you should be practical about your child bearing but also she has a son with asperger's. >> i want to fill in some. there is the individual story. he is trying to tell a story about sociological trends. there is jaggedness to that. the data here is interesting and complicated. you said something to me about what you were struck by as someone who spent a lot of time thinking about women and wages and work. >> first of all, what we know is that college dropouts have the highest divorce rates of anyone else, much higher than high school graduates who never go on to college and much higher than people who graduate from college

and higher than people who drop out of high school. there is something that is not going right in their life and that is contributing to them dropping out of high school. it is contributing to them dropping out of college and their marriages not working out. another thing i wanted to jump on -- i had the same reaction to the story and maybe more hypersensitive to it. you said seven years later he hadn't married. the research shows the women don't want to marry the men until they contribute something to the household either helping with the children and bringing home a paycheck. she might have been better off getting rid of the mouth to feed. that is what the research kathy eden at harvard has great research showing women want to get married to a guy who will

change the diapers and go to work. >> is this what we have always known. sthis what grandma told us. >> here comes the conservative. >> what we are learning here and i'm agreeing with a lot of what you are saying except for the suggestion that the first baby should have been aborted. you don't like the burden being put on the women. that is fair, too. guys are told you have to grow up and become a guy who is responsible for yourself who can be responsible for other people like children and who can do your part, getting married as a man involves self sacrifice and sublating your will to that of your wife. a good family where the guy is a

decent loving guy and a guy who can be a care taker, that is the ideal. >> let me interject. we are saying men and women because the subject of the article is men and women. there are house holds with men and men and women and women. i want to get to your thoughts right after we take a break. for a relaxing vacation. ♪ sometimes, we go for a ride in the park. maybe do a little sightseeing. or, get some fresh air. but this summer, we used our thank youpoints to just hang out with a few friends in london. [ male announcer ] the citi thankyou visa card. redeem the points you've earned to travel with no restrictions. rewarding you, every step of the way.

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just plug this into your car, and your good driving can save you up to 30%. you could even try it without switching your insurance. why not give it a shot? carry on. now you can test-drive snapshot before you switch. visit progressive.com today. so we are talking about marriage, the changes to family structure, the trends towards more children being born outside of marriage and particularly how those changes are happening at different rates and different levels of the income scale which is a fairly established fact. there is a case that there is a noticeable drove in the children born outside of marriage. that is one of the issues. then there is the question of

inkwaubi inequality and a lot of other variables come in. i can never tell if the conversation is about single moms who can be married and divorced or mothers who have kids not in marriage and whether the father is present isn't totally related to marriage or not. i'm not blowing up your spot by saying you have written about this. you have an unwed mother. you have a long term relationship. you two have not entered into the bonds of marriage but you are raising a family. >> the choices that we are making and the difference between us and the typical cohabiting family in the united states is really what's driving the different outcomes for the kids. we had been in our relationship for 12 years and spent 12 years discussing how we would parent together and how it would affect our relationship. we planned and planned and

planned. we waited until we were both more established in our careers and ready to make sacrifices. all of those steps are the things that are really making a difference. it's not that if i can get justin down the marriage aisle that the good fairy would turn him into more affa marriageable man. the guy who had fathered her children would have been just like kevin a great dad throwing the baseball and going to the the scouting camps if he had been hit by that -- >> i agree with that. i thought one thing katha said was the lack of support that the single mother with the three kids got. she had one kid with asperger's. she has no money for extra

activities. i raised kids. i was able to do it because of family support. there was subsidized daycare and camps and outreach in my community that helped support me with my child and to bring her along. there were free after school activities and free sports. what i thought was striking in the article and you brought it up in yours was that this woman seemed to have no other support. i think she had cervical cancer. she has surgery and the doctor says her to stay out for six weeks. she stays out for one because she can't afford to stay out any longer. >> paid sick leave. people should know this woman works as an assistant manager in a daycare center. she makes $12.35 per hour. she clocks in and out. she has no vacation time. what kind of a way is this to

treat a person who has done everything right. who hasn't screwed up by the time they are 25? >> i have a quick point to what you are saying and tie it together with the you didn't build that stuff. we do need community support. one argument that was written about and one of the points that is made is that sometimes you look for a solution on the national level because a problem is throughout the whole country. sometimes the only effective way to provide the support is going to be community based. some of it is voluntary based. some of it is the bonds of community and neighbors and friends. the dissolution of that is the root of the problem. you guys can hav the solution. i think somehow and a british writer writes about this somehow we need to rebuild a community where your next door neighbor can watch your kids while you run out.

>> i couldn't aagree with you more on that point. hormonal pregnant woman i burst into tears when nobody showed up at the kid's birthday party. that is not a problem the government is going to solve. what is going on with the school system with the parents that a kid can have his entire class invite today the birthday party and no one show up. >> just to be clear here. subsidized daycare, there are public resources. if we are going to have universal pre k and i think all the data shows it would be great for development and great for people across the income spectrum. i think we should fund that with tax dollars. >> we can do it on the local level. >> how would we pay for it federally? i want you to respond but let's take a quick break first. [ male announcer ] this is rudy.

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you want today respond. we were having this conversation about changing households, family structure, increasing number of women have children outside of marriage. >> i want to say that the dominant paradigm is the one of values are driving all of this. that is bad and the marriage fairy will change everybody if they get married. it isn't just conservatives as i think you dropped into the conversation earlier. this was the theory behind the welfare reform bill clinton signed which said marriage yes and everybody should have been working. has this slowed the growthmothe? no. this woman is doing everything right. is she getting help that should have been extended to her?

no. >> she is on foot stamps as 45 million americans are. >> is she getting a program for her asperger's son? no. he should be learning social skills and people would come to his birthday party. that is beyond the family. >> there are two economic things happening. one is the fact that women have entered the workforce in increasing numbers. >> lowering the poverty rate. >> this is a good thing. the point is one of the things that happens is in a world in which you have two earner house holds one earner house holds are in worse shape. the majority if not all of the rise in household income happens for 20 or 30 years in the 1970s is happening because of

increasing women labor market participation. if you look at men's wages from 1973 to today they are down about $12,000. that is men between 25 and 34 in the prime marriageable years. you are seeing a decline in male earning which is part of what is driving this, as well. the question of finding someone who can support a family. >> changes in the country and the world have fundamentally changed marriage. if you go back to, say, the 1950s what we had was a world in which the ideal marriage was one that was more where people were more productive when they were married than when they were apart. >> division of labor. >> gary becker won the nobel prize for this. you described a world in which one person particularly the man went into the market and focused on earning money and the other person stayed at home and focused on doing all of the

things that a homemaker does. what has happened is that we had a number of changes. so reduced discrimination has increased the opportunity cost of having that person stay home. technological change in the house hold has been enormous and reduced the value. you don't need one person who does the laundry because it is so complicated. now any idiot can run the washing machine. he doesn't need his wife to be a laundress. we had an increase in trade so we don't need women to perfect learning how to sew because they can hire a seamstress from china. we have seen marriage based on

companionship and people choosing each other because they are going to get along better and enjoy life more together. >> which i think is groovy. >> let me tell you a couple of facts on that. college educated women were the least likely to marry under the old regime. if you went to college -- >> they didn't have the skill set. >> and nobody wanted to be -- >> they were -- >> today they are the most likely to marry. everybody wants to marry this companion person. >> i want to get your response but we are going to take one more break and i'm going to get your response. the greatest empires. then, some said, we lost our edge. well today, there's a new new york state. one that's working to attract businesses and create jobs. a place where innovation meets determination... and businesses lead the world.

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in other words, companionship has to be defined in a broader way if that is what we are

seeking. there is the most basic level of acompanionship which a lot of high school kids think of is the brad pitt and angelina jolie thing. a smarter form of companionship is where you are thinking do we both want kids and how are we going to raise the kids and talking about religion. going through and defining companionship to be broader and not just we love each other so much. >> the big variable here is waiting. that is the other thing that is the big take away from social science. whether you are married or unmarried the longer you wait to have kids as a general rule the outcomes are better. that is one thing social science tells us. we have seen the average age that women has children has moved from 20 to 26. >> it has moved for highly

educated women and not for less educated women. that has been driving the gap in outcomes, family outcomes is highly educated women are postponing kids until they are ready. >> the question for me is if you don't wait and if you don't marry, how can you become successful? i felt single women and children are almost punished. you made the mistake and you will suffer for the rest of your life. we help wall street when they make mistakes. why not help women and children? we pay such lip service to women and children. when these children are birthed and existing in certain family structures we sort of write them off as if they are not important. >> you were just saying during the break you had your daughter

when you were 20 years old. investments you make in mothers and children, if they are successful investment and your experience was successful produced a lot of human value. we want to have flourishing people at the end of this. >> at that period of the early 70s the notion of being a single mother was not as demonized and negative. i watched it change over the years especially for women of color and women who are not middle class sort of like you made a mistake. >> katha it is so great having you here. what we know now. 'to this, it's just too hard." then there was a moment. when i decided to find a way to keep going. go for olympic gold and go to college too. [ male announcer ] every day we help students earn their bachelor's or master's degree for tomorrow's careers.

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what we now know that we didn't know last week. on sunday's show ed connor said

the united states has increased productivity and painted a picture of americans as home as entrepreneurial capitalism. that's not really a complete picture. it's important to point out that as recently at 2009 american workers were less productive per hour than those in belgium and norway and a smidge more than the netherlands. productivity per hour in the united states has gone up during the great recession as employers squeeze more work out of existing employees it remains to be seen how and whether this benefits the american worker in terms of wages. what do we know now. we know that nearly 18,000 cases

of whooping cough have been reported to the cdc this year and nine babies have died putting it on track to be one of the worst outbreaks in the united states in over 50 years. there has been misinformation about vaccines. opinion has catastrophic human cost. though no one is paying all that much attention, we know the u.s. has done something conservatives said wasn't possible. it has cut its carbon emissions while also growing its economy. we know the u.s. leads all other countries in u.s. carbon emissions since 2006 cutting it back to 1996 levels. the reasons for reassuring is partly due to economic slowdown in the wake of the financial crisis and a glut of cheap natural gas made possible by fracking. the road to reduce gas emissions is complicated but the math is simple. as bill mckibben spells out in a

rust-read article, if we want to have a chance of avoiding catastrophe, we need to leave 80% of all the known fossil fuel reserves, including natural gas n the ground. we now know the republicans not only oppose public funding or campaign finance restrictions but now apparently oppose disclosure. the senate republicans killed the disclose act this week, a bill that would have required the full disclosure of campaign contributors. a bill that many of them previously supported as an alternative to campaign donation limits. we know ron paul's campaign for liberty, the national rifle association warned senators they are keeping a score card of the disclose act. but we don't know who is funding the majority of the third-party ads being run this election, but that's the whole point. and finally, where there is smoke there's fire. we know a blogger hot on the trail of liberal media bias caught ohio senator sharon brown

in a nice embrace. he reached out writing she was getting too close to democrats and asking for the comment. he responded, i am surprised you did not find a photo of me kissing u.s. senator sherrod brown so hard he passes out from the lack of oxygen. he's really cute. followed by, he's also my husband. you know that, right? rich benjamin is back at the table. i want to find out what my guests think we now know at the end of this week. i'll start with you, rich. >> i now know a trend in the wealth management industry, a ceo of the ruden group advising her industry to declare the middle class is toast and that they should now focus on the wealthy. we'll see what charles says about that. >> wait n terms of investments? >> in terms of growing business.

you say middle class is toast, forget about them, and ushld only focus on the extremely wealthy. >> there's a book coming out soon from jeff faux called "the conservative economy." the conceit is that increasingly we'll have essentially a wealthy class and then jobs in the service industry giving them the things that they want. and i'm anxious to talk to jeff about the book. betty? betsy? >> we know chairman bernanke thinks there's more that the fed could do to help the economy and combine that with what we already knew is that the fed is projecting they are going to miss on both their unemployment and inflation targets. in other words, inflation is projected by them to be lower, under the 2% they target. closer to 1%. so now what we don't know is what they are waiting for. >> i have said this before. if ben bernanke did this, we

would be suing him for malpractice. tim carney? >> we unfortunately know the instinct to pin tragedies and horrific offenses on the tea party is involuntary reaction in politics. we had brian ross of abc news speculate widely and irresponsible that the suspected shooter was a tea party member who had the same name. it showed up in a google search. this is not the first time. gabby giffords was shot and people killed in that case. you had a rush of people in the media and politicians and most notably paul crudly making this part of the tea party world. you have fazal shazad who is a pakistani american who is not a member of the tea party, let me put it that way.

he was did tainted in pakistan. robert dreyfus said it was part of the tea party anti-government right. and mayor bloomberg suggested it was somebody upset about the health care bill. i could go on. >> the joe stack thing, which i wrote about in my book, with the exception of ryan ross making that statement, which was retracted, people have been good in the last day or two partly because we learn the lesson that we do not know. joe nelson, what do we now snow in. >> we know what an abortion at six weeks thanks to a woman who had one and posted it on my website called myabortion.com. this is for a woman's right to have been abortion. the demonizing pictures of baby's arms and legs in jars and

so forth, we see what it is like for a woman to have an abortion. >> thank you. author of searching for white topia, betsy stevens, tim carney of the washington examiner, jill nelson, author of "volunteer slavery my authentic negro experience." thank you for joining us for "up." tomorrow, we'll talk to gary gensler act the effect of grougt on food prices and amy goodman. coming up next is melissa-harris perry with more details on the shooting in aurora and explore why we in terms of civil crisis are prepared to give up civil liberties. and have we seen the end of modernation? we'll have mike castle join melissa harris-perry tomorrow. see you tomorrow at 8:00.

thank you for getting up. [ man ] ever year, sophia and i use the points we earn with our citi thankyou card for a relaxing vacation. ♪ sometimes, we go for a ride in the park. maybe do a little sightseeing. or, get some fresh air. but this summer, we used our thank youpoints to just hang out with a few friends in london. [ male announcer ] the citi thankyou visa card. redeem the points you've earned to travel with no restrictions. rewarding you, every step of the way.

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