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me and he gave me the opportunity to live, he would have done it for anyone that day. >> as the country and the world tries to make sense of the tragedy in colorado. good day, everyone. it is noon here in the east, 9:00 a.m. out west. i'm alex witt. we are now approaching 33 hours since those tragic and still inexplicable moments in a crowded theater. imagine every seat side by side, every row front to back filled at a suburban mall in the heart of colorado. moments when actual gun fire broke the sell of fictional violence on the big screen and in that time, 33 hours, we have learned enough to frighten and sadden us for a lifetime. but practically speaking we have learned rather little. in fact, at this hour police remain mystified by booby-traps carefully arranged inside the suspect's apartment. officials say removing the trip wire may include a detonation, a

blast and fire. we'll have more on that remarkable and developing situation in a moment. but back at the shooting scene where this horror show began with one man and four guns, there remain more unanswered questions about the time just before the gunfire started as the investigation enters its second full day. my colleague msnbc's chris janis sing is joining me life. good day to you. are the police offering any further answers about how this unfoaled? >> reporter: we are hearing most about how it unfolded from people who were in the theater. in the parking lot behind me, there's been a lot of activity because they're starting to release the cars to people who are were inside the theater. and through one of the people who came here, the aunt and great-aunt of two of the victims, we have learned the sixth name of a person who was killed among the 12 here, and she is the littlest victim.

6-year-old veronica mozer. her mother ashley who had just started a nursing program was there as well. she is in critical condition with bullet wounds, according to her aunt, in the neck and the abdomen. and we also know the names of five other people, most recently besize little veronica, a member of the military here, petty officer third class john larimer. just 27 years old, came late last year to buckley air force base. the others, mckayla medic, 23 years old. it's been an agonizing week for her family. they waited almost 24 hours to get confirmation their daughter was killed. matt mcquinn who was trying to shield his girlfriend when he was shot. she is listed in stable condition. 27-year-old alex sullivan who was celebrating his birthday with friends going into that movie theater. and jessica ghawi who's just 24

years old and whose brother over the last day has spoken so eloquently about her and trying to keep her name out there and saying, i don't want this just to be about james holmes, i don't want this just to be about him. but we do know that he is not talking. there's no motive that is known. the associated press has been able to obtain some briefing documents from federal authorities, and we've heard from local authorities as well, why he did this alex remains a mystery. >> chris, it is so difficult to hear you put names and facts and details to people that previously we've just known as being one of 12, having been killed, it's really hard to hear. but you what about dramatic stories of heroism from survivors? what are you hearing on that front? >> reporter: well, i'm telling you what we're hearing so often is exactly what i just said about the person who died trying to shield his girlfriend, that so many people in the midst of

all of this chaos -- you know, maybe you've heard the stories but you have to put yourself inside that darkened movie theater. every single seat was taken. then you have a gunman who's impo imposing. first of all, head to toe he's in black and military gear, antiballistic gear. he's 6'3" tall, and by all accounts opening fire and using one gun and then the next and the next. the movie is still playing so it's incredibly loud in there. it's hard to know what directions the sounds are coming from, what's real and what's not. there are people who are trying to shield their loved ones, others putting themselves at risk were trying to drag some of the injured out of the theater. of and yet, obviously, it's so crowded and so hard to even find an aisle. some people describe -- and this is so graphic and it's hard to hear -- slipping and falling in pools of blood. so many people who tried to help either those they knew and loved

or complete strangers. i think that "the denver post" headline really says it best. this is it today -- "our hearts are breaken." this is a community that is still in shock, still mourning abdomen and grieving and still waiting to know the names and stories of the six other people who were killed in that movie neert behind me. >> chris jansing, thank you very much for the details. we want to let all of you know that chris will be reporting live from aurora a bit later today, 3:00 to 5:00 eastern right here on msnbc. as we said, developing now a tense scene at the suspect's apartment. police are trying to remove a trip wire to those booby-traps we've told you about. they admit there could be explosives. new today, aurora police describe their delicate operation. >> we are aware of some jars that may contain some accelerants and the mutual aid

and the work that's happening with the partnerships of everybody involved, you've got the bomb guys, right next to them is a fire guy. so the communication there, the incident command is amazing. so all of those things are being taken into consideration before any move is made. >> nbc's mike taibbi is live outside the apartment building. mike, what's going on right now? >> reporter: as sergeant carlson just said, a move will be made. there's no time line yet. you and i spoke about five hours ago. at that point they were getting ready to muster the teams that were going to resume the attempt to get in the apartment. we they will get in. sergeant carlson said there could be a controlled explosion that will be the entry of a robotic device to do further analysis before they decide the next step. we'll get a heads-up because this is peoria street behind me. street will be shut down completely. after that, it won't take too

much time before they make the next move, probably with the entry of that robot to get further details, further data, from inside the apartment. of course it's very important for the police to get inside not just to learn what they can and defuse the situation but also to collect evidence, to try and understand what happened, what the planning process was, what materials and other evidence had been collected by the alleged suspect in this case, how and in what way and in what manner and for what reasons he could have done what he is alleged to have done, what chris jansing just spoke about, an unspeakable horror visited upon totally innocent suspects who through their bravery may have helped but still 12 died dozens and doddss profoundly injured as well. the answers may be in that apartment, likely the best answers we get when the police finally go in. and it's expected that will happen at some point today. we don't know the precise time.

alex? >> mike, do you know what it is, a certain threshold police believe they need to cross to ensure safety before they go in? i mean, are there trip wires they're looking for around doors or windows? have they been specific with that? >> reporter: what chief dan oates said yesterday was really telling. he described it as lattice work across the floor leading to vessels and jars and bottles to unknown substances. could be chemical and incendiary. could be is the operative words here. obviously this alleged suspect had lots of time to plan what he was going to do and how he was going to leave his apartment on the night he left the night he did what he was alleged to have done. chief oates said he had never seen anything like it. he described the situation as vexing last night. the police solve vexing problems and it's expected they will do that some time today. >> mike, can you guesstimate

just the manpower being devoted to this right now, even as you look at the numbers behind you by that apartment building? >> reporter: we saw about a dozen trucks come in this morning, fire trucks with aerial ladders, support vehicles, ambulances. we just saw about a dozen police officers on motorcycles come in. that may be for traffic control later on when they close down peer ra street behind me. right now they're being very tight-lipped and we're being controlled more, the meet area, where we can park and stand and observe what happens here. so it looks like they're getting ready for something with scores of personnel in and around the area directly surrounding the building. and of course the four buildings adjacent that building, james holmes' building, remain evacuated. they won't come in until whatever happens here happens. >> they are certainly trying to ensure everyone's safety. we appreciate that. mike, thanks for that. meanwhile, the effects of the shooting are rippling across the country as police step up

patrols around movie theaters. here in new york city, dozen of extra officers have been assigned to the screenings of "the dark knight rises." jonathan has more from times square. >> reporter: many of the theaters here are sold out today. that is the case here at the amc in times square where earlier this morning hundreds of people fwaered to get inside for that first screening. many of them we spoke with said they bought their tickets months in advance. they got here so early because they were anxious to get inside, beat the crowd and get good seats. and it is these crowds that have police on high patrol. there are officers throughout the city outside the doors of theaters making sure they are secure and that everything runs smoothly. we did speak with officials who say they are gotten calls concerned about the security at theaters. commission r commissioner ray kelly addressed it. he said there are no security threats they know of right now but they're making sure everything goes according to plan this weekend. take a listen. >> we're dog that to address the

potential of a copycat event and to reassure moviegoers, particularly parents. >> reporter: the same kind of security can be seen really throughout the tri-state area and the country. on long island police there actually hadding tos. back in times square, we spoke to people who said they're much more aware of their surroundings. we spoke with one moviegoer who said he was inside during this movie and saw what he described as a suspicious man wear egg hoodie by the exit. he called over security. security telz us it was one big misunderstanding. the amc has released a statement saying, quote, for the safety and security of our guests and associates we are actively working with local law enforcement in communities throughout the nation and under the circumstances we are reaching out to all of our sheerts to review our safety and security procedures. warner brothers also taking action to make sure that watching this movie is anxiety-free. there was a trailer for another movie known as "the gangster squad" showing in theerpts as

recently as yesterday. in that movie, there was a scene of opening fire in movie theaters, causing anxiety for those going into theaters today. those trailers have been pulled indefinitely. as far as police, they are back out here at these theaters. we're told they'll remain throughout the day and possibly throughout the weekend. alex? >> w nbc's jonathan vig lee okayly, thank you. you'll hear from a psychiatrist who's examined the minds of more than 200 mass murderers, what he can tell us so far about james holmes, next. man: there's a cattle guard, take a right.

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the community of aurora, colorado, is remembering the victims of friday morning's horrific shooting. several vigils and memorials took place last night, including one near the theater where 12 people were killed and 58 others hurt. those in attendance set up a makeshift memorial with many holding candles. well, president obama has ordered flags at half-staff in honor of those who died in the shooting, all u.s. flags at the white house, public buildings and military installations throughout the united states will remain half-mast until sunset wednesday. the last time the president ordered flags to be flown on half-staff was memorial day. a former classmate of the shooting suspect is revealing details about james holmes' past. sumit shah said he went to school with him. >> he was pretty quiet but he was witty when he got

comfortable. it's weird to see him go from the guy i knew to someone who killed 12 people. he wasn't aggressive, kind of shy but pretty well humored. it wasn't like shyness is an indicator for shooting up a movie theater. the first thing i thought was, like, expletives, oh, my god, i can't believe this happened. >> james holmes graduated high school in 2006. let's bring in dr. michael stone, the professor of krin cal psychiatry at columbia as well as the author of "the nat me of evil." doctor, i'm glad you're here. in your experience, sir, you have examined the minds of 200 mass murderers. from what we've learned about james holmes so far, what are you gleaning? >> well, he's still a bit of a mystery guy because he seems to have a mission of some sort, which i don't understand yet.

most of them are reacting to some disappointment, reajection or hurt, whatever, humiliation and they are smoldering with rage and then they lose it and they blow out in this kind of a mass murder. but with this guy, dressing up in this funny way, he seems different from the others. i don't know what makes him tick yet exactly. >> when you say something will trigger it, in other words, you say they're reacting to something. there is a distinction to be made between a mass murderer, say, and a serial killer. >> yes. >> tell me about that. >> the serial killers are the ones that the public knows the most about, the ones with the sexual motif, of course they're all men. and they are driven by lust as well as murderous impulses and they do it one after the other. there's a time interval between murder one, murder two, murder three. and they are generally speaking

men who are losers in life and they actually achieve a kind of sense of power and dominance through their actions. >> does that make -- i mean, if you can describe it this way, is there one you perceive to be more evil? i mean, it sounds like one snaps over something and the other has a predistinction toward evil, just constant. >> yes. i picture -- i put at the top of my evil list with the number 22 that i gave the ones who torture. in other words, it's horrible to be mowed down by a mass murderer with an ak-47. but to be tied down and tortured in a prolonged way and things inserted into your body -- >> that's beyond. i mean, that is beyond horrific. >> that is beyond. >> where would james holmes rank in this 1 to 22. >> i would say in my category 16 which is below the serial

killers and torturers but those who do massive bad acts either all at once or sometimes a rape here and an assault there. they're a little bit different. >> sir, i'd like you to take a listen with me to the reaction of one witness inside of that movie theater. let's take a listen, everyone. >> he actually waited -- yeah, he actually wait ed. he looked so calm. he waited for the bombs to explode before he did anything, made any type of move. after both of them exploded, that's when he began to shoot. >> the first shot was in the ha air, then he started -- >> no specific target. he just started letting loose. >> you hear that, that they look so calm. it's as if he got their attention, waited and then go going. what does that tell you? >> it says something about the coldness, the emotional coldness of the person. i mean, it takes a certain kind of mind, i think, to just stand with a gun in your hand and mow

down a bunch of people as though you were shooting tin cans off the fence. some of them are just that way all the time, and some of them are people who have kind of a divided personality, one of the most well-known examples from my era, world war ii, is rudolph hiss who is the commandant at auschwitz, had a family, kids was very kind, but at oush wits he was absolutely cold with no thought of the murders he's authorizing. >> here's something interesting. he was caught rather emotionless by the police behind that movie theater. he was not killed, as many mass murderers will be. what is in his mindset? he didn't want to be killed. >> usually, like you say, they

do end up either killing themselves as the authorities close in or they do commit suicide. we don't know whether he was determined to survive. i think it's a good guess that he may have wanted to live, which means he has some issue, some message he wanted to transmit, which i'm damned if i know what it is. this fellow aundish breivik from a year ago, he has an idealog, a fanatic anti-jihad person who has a mission. this guy may have had some mission that he wanted to be alive and talk about afterwards, but i don't know what it is yet. >> i'm sure you will do your best to find out, dr. michael stone, thank you for sharing your insights, sir. more on the tragedy in colorado. you'll hear from a neighbor of james holmes, what she heard the night of the shooting. this is new york state. we built the first railway,

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in other news this day, we have more fighting in the capital of syria. government forces say they reit gained part of damascus after almost a week of fighting. opposition forces said they made what they call a tactical withdrawal but their forces remain in other parts of the capital. mean wheel, the rebels say they have taken control of a number of border crossings. an air force instructor convicted of raping a female recruit returns to court today. he could be given up to life in prison in the sentencing phase of his court-martial in lackland air base in texas. he was convicted yesterday on all 28 counts he faced including rape, aggravated sexual assault and multiple counts of aggravated sexual assault. in today's political headlines, new details are out this morning about mitt romney's trip abroad next week. he will depart on thursday to meet with leaders in israel, poland and britain.

president george w. bush will not appear at the rnc convention. he supports governor romney but respectfully declined the invitation to go to tampa. on the kmiks front, state unemployment rates were released yesterday. in 27 of the 50 states the unemployment rate rose in june. in the key battleground states, 5 out of 9 had increases, ohio was the sole swing state to see its number improve. it fell by 0.1%. more on the delicate operation under way at the apartment of the colorado movie theater shooter. we have a live report on the investigation and new reaction from witnesses, next. my volt is the best vehicle i've ever driven. i bought the car because of its efficiency.

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booby-trapped apartment to remove trip wires in there. nbc's miguel alga mer is near the apartment today. >> reporter: good afternoon, the police are about four miles from this location trying to enter james holmes' apartment, as you whengsed that is rigged with explosive devices. they think some of the answers to this massacre may actually be inside his home, but they have been very cautious about entering the home because it is rigged with so many explosive devices. meantime, back here at the crime scene -- >> miguel, hold that thought. we're taking everyone to a briefing by the aurora police department. >> here at the suspect's residence on paris street, first i'd like to point out i will not be taking any questions. and governor john hickenlooper, aurora mayor steve hogan have arrived on scene. they have been with us. once they leave this scene, they will be going and visiting

victims at area hospitals. for the update at the apartment, we have been successful in defeating the first threat. as you may recall, we described that threat as a trip wire and also included defeating the first incendiary device. >> will you repeat that? >> yes. we have been successful in defeating the first threat, which includes defeating the trip wire and the first incendiary device. what you need to understand is that this trip wire was set up to clearly detonate when somebody entered that apartment. and it was set up to kill that person. that could have been a police officer executing a search warrant or anyone. so this is some serious stuff that our team is dealing with. so what's happening now, what the team is dealing with now, is

they're reassessing the scene. now the first threat has been taken care of, this has provided them a chance to rest and reassess. there are other devices inside. i'm not going into detail about what those devices are. let's keep in mind the integrity of this investigation, reference this mass tragedy that occurred yesterday. in the second phase, this may include the controlled detonation of another triggering mechanism. i spoke to you about that this morning. if that's to occur, keeping public safety in mind, we will be shutting down peoria street behind me and doing a reverse 911 call and you all will be notified. if this controlled detonation occurs, there will be allowed a

boom associated with it. but we will give you a heads-up if this will happen. that's being assessed as we speak. that's aall i have for the update. just as i reminder to you guys, please stay on the east side of peoria street for your safety. thank you. >> all right, that is the first update of the day there from the aurora police department. and the good news is they have been very successful, at least in step one of a very, very delicate phase. they have managed to defuse the trip wire that was set up to the first incendiary device there, something that was set up that obviously could have been by a police officer coming in, as she suggested, to serve a search warrant. we also know there was a neighbor right underneath his apartment last night -- or the night before, the night of the tragedy, who heard some loud music blaring who, against the suggestion of her boyfriend to stay there, went upstairs, knocked on the door to tell him

to turn down his music. that music seemed to have been on some sort of timer. it was extremely loud and it was on from midnight to 1:00 in the morning and then it shut off. so that is a fascinating development there, and it's good news they are making progress. it is painstaking and slow. miguel almaguer, sorry, we had to cut you short. i know you understand why. do you have any idea how many devices they are looking at inside that apartment there? has the police department been clear on that at all? >> reporter: alex, police haven't given specific examples of what type of devices they're looking at. we know they're looking at at least 60 explosive or chemical devices. >> wait. did you say 16 or 60? >> reporter: 60, 6-0. >> wow! >> reporter: several devices. and the reason for the high number in a relatively small apartment is probably because investigators may be counting things like ammunition.

if they see certain levels of ammunition, they could count each piece as part of an explosive device. so it may not be completely laced -- the apartment may not be completely packed with explosive devices, but there are certainly dozens and dozens of at least chemical if not explosive devices they are ke concerned about. clearly why they are going so slowly into his apartment. back at the crime scene, investigators are letting folks come back here to pick up their vehicles. of course this entire area was shut down friday -- james holmes reportedly walked through a back exit door into one of the movie theaters where the new "batman" was playing, set off an explosive device and then, according to police, allegedly began his crime spree, alex. >> nbc's miguel almaguer, thank you. a joined by criminologist james fox with northeast university in boston now. james, i'm glad you're here.

you heard the presser from the police there. tell me, what kind of a mind is it that sets up booby-traps his apartment in the wake of leaving to commit such a heinous crime? >> someone who wants to feel powerful and important. generally mass murderers are insignificant nobodies who feel isolated, unimportant, and, through murder, they distinguish themselves as superior, important, and someone to reckon with. >> james, does intelligence have something to do with this? because we know that james holmes was a phd candidate. he was in the process of withdrawing, though, from the graduate program there in neuroscience at the university of colorado at denver. does that fit at all into the profile of a mass murderer? or does it not matter? >> it really doesn't matter. there have been mass murderers who have had phds, who have been college professors even, yet others haven't even graduated high school. you're talking about someone who

certainly has enough knowledge of weaponry to carry out a bloodbath. but beyond that, intelligence is insignificant. but what's important, however, in this case perhaps is that you have someone who has not fulfilled his promise. there's disappointment. he went off to graduate school and he withdrew. what we find in cases of mass murderers is a history of frustration and failure and disappointment. they feel that they have been the victim of mistreatment, injustice, and they want other people to pay, to feel the suffering and agony and unfairness that they have experienced themselves. >> so, james, initially what you said in your description of him also a faculty member saying he was strangely quiet in class and seemed socially off. are people who commit these crimes typically described this way? and if so, why? what's behind that? >> well, oftentimes they say that, oh, he's so quiet. well, these are people who

oftentimes are isolated who don't have strong social support in their lives, they don't have lots of friends and family nearby to help them get through hard times and deal with their disappointments and put a reality check on things. but people who are happy and satisfied with life and have lots of connections with others just don't commit this kind of crime. the difficulty here is that there's lots of people who fit this profile, thousands upon thousands of persons who are unhappy, disappointed, frustrated, blame others for their problems and don't have social support and even access to guns. yet the vast majority will never pick up a gun and do anything at all, although there may be a predictable profile, we cannot predict who the exact individuals who will be who carry out these blood baths. that's why hind sight is 20/20. we can't predict it at all. >> yeah. criminologist james fox with northeastern university in boston, many thanks for your time and insight. >> sure. another new and heart wrenching story just in from the

scene of the shooting at the century 16 movie theater, it comes from one woman who returned to the scene today. she was attempting to retrieve her relative's car, a car that has been in the parking lot since the shooting. you may not have heard her story before. here it is in her own words. >> what brings you here today? >> my niece is injured. she's paralyzed right now. and her daughter was killed. so my great-niece was the 6-year-old that was killed in the accident. in the shooting. >> the little girl. >> veronica. >> and she was how old? >> she was 6 years old. >> and your niece, what's her name? >> her name is ashley moser. >> she's paralyzed? >> dhoent know if she'll be quadriplegic or paralyzed. >> was she shot in the back? >> she was shot in the neck and in the abdomen. >> wow, i'm really sorry.

so you basically had to -- they fled the scene, were taken to the hospital, and the car just sat here. so you guys are trying to retrieve the car? explain to me -- it's just kind of hard to imagine your feelings at this point. but can you try to articulate a little bit how tough this last couple of days have been on you? >> well, it's just been really tough because her dad died eight weeks ago. so it's been a whole family crisis. it's just like a nightmare right now. it's a nightmare. ashley was just at my house a couple nights ago with veronica. you know, it's like surreal. everything is surreal right now. we can't get in the hospital to see her because she's in icu and they'll only let the mom go in. when the dad tried to identify veronica, of course they wouldn't let him go in and they had to try to do it by pictures. you know, it's -- everybody's doing their job, but -- i don't

know. how do you feel. >> katherine, teenagers your age, they all go to the movies. how do you feel now knowing that an incident like this could happen at the movies, which i think people consider a pretty safe place to go? >> it's just really scary, you know. like now i know when i walk into a theater i'm going to think of this incident and i just -- i don't know if i want to go to the movies for a while. it's really hard. >> you weren't there at the movie, right? >> no. >> it puts an edge there. >> i knew some people that were there, though. some from my school. but they're okay. >> that was annie and katherine dalton talking about their cousin and niece who passed away and her mother who is trying 0 a to recover from the tragedy. what the tragedy means for gun control in this country.

first a programming note. we anticipated airing "office politics" at this segment. as you might imagine, the events in colorado changed those plans. we will run those segments with their special guest bravo's andy cohen on the weekend of august 11th. we invite you to watch at that time when we hope it is better times for us all. yield to restful sleep.

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the details that continue to come out of colorado paint a terrifying picture of yesterday's shooting massacre. in the latest news conference aurora police chief dan oates describeded suspect james holmes' weapons. >> in the last 60 days he purchased four guns at local metro gun shops and through the internet he purchased over 6,000 rounds of ammunition, more than 3,000 rounds of .223 ammunition for the assault rifle, 3,000 rounds of 40-caliber for the two glocks in his possession and 300 rounds for the 12-gauge shotgun.

all the weapons that he possessed he possessed legally and all the clips that he possessed he possessed legally. and all the ammunition that he possessed he possessed legally. >> joining me is former dnc communications director and msnbc political analyst karen finny and former rick san form press secretary alice stuart. thanks, ladies, for being here. karen, as we just heard from police chief oates, holmes had amassed quite an arsenal, but he did not break any laws until he started shooting. what does that tell you about the state of our nation's gun laws? >> well, they're very badly broken. it's beyond time not just from this incident but the other incidents we've had over the last couple of years i think it's very clear there is a real need to fix these laws. one of the things i read earlier is the assault weapons ban might have helped -- if that had been in place, that may have prevented one of the types of guns and ammunition he was able to purchase. you know, one of the things, alex, wynne of the simplest

things there is broad agreement from gun owners and non-gun owners in this country, we could tighten up some of the loopholes that currently exist that make it harder for law enforcement to track -- i was listening to them thinking, how come that didn't raise a red flag on a computer database that said, why is this one individual making all these purchases? well, there are laws in place right now that weaken our gun laws that have been pressed by the nra that mae make it harder those things. if i buy sud da fed d, i can wait for certain amount of time. >> i was thinking about the health care system. you're right, that has been focused upon and that is the process of being improved so there is a record of who's purchasing what and when to avoid drug prescription abuse. alice, these massacres keep happening yet people in america have guns. and there's a lot of guns out there. where is the evidence that the

freedom to own guns could prevent violence? >> well, first of all, obviously our thoughts and prayers go out to all the victims in this senseless tragedy. but it's important to note in this case, by all accounts, what we know about the suspect is that he had no priors and, from what we understand, no record of mental illness and he had a clean record. there's absolutely no regulation and no law that could have prevented what happened. here we have someone who clearly has some mental issues that snapped, and there's no regulation humanly possible that would have been able to prevent someone from snapping and carrying out an act like this. there's no law that regulates responsible behavior. so there's no way to go about creating enough law to stop this kind of violence. so stricter gun laws are not the answer. that would prevent law-abuy biding citizens in many cases from obtaining the guns they are entitled to. >> alice, in a radio interview yesterday, new york city mayor

michael bloomberg spoke about president obama's and mitt romney's speeches. let's listen to what he said. >> soothing words are nice, but maybe it's time that the two people who want to be president of the united states stand up and tell us what they are going to do about it. there's so in murders with guns every day, it's just got to stop. and insteed of the two people, president obama and governor romney, talking in broad things about they want to make the world a better place, okay, tell us how. >> alice, why not -- is there not a better time to address gun laws and the gun lobby's influence? >> i think the president and governor romney were right yesterday. the governor gave a great speech saying our hearts are broken by this tragedy, and the president saying that this is a time of reflection. it is a time to pull the political ads off the tv. yesterday and the next few days are days to hug our children and our spouses and our friends and loved ones. politics should take a back burner in a time like this.

this is not about politics. this is about putting what's important, and that is our loved ones, and the safety of them, that's the most important thing here. politics should be something that's discussed further down the road. >> but, you know, we're not talking necessarily just about politics here. i think this is very important. i agree with alice that we've got to -- our prayers and thoughts are with people in colorado and with -- i think it makes everybody feel reflective. at the same time, we're talking about policy, not so much politics. i think it was right to not continue to campaign activities. but let's look at the policies around gun rights in this country and i think there's clear evidence there's more that can be done that can better arm our police officers, better protect our citizenry and better ensure that people aren't able to -- you're right. we're talking about responsible gun owners, but we're also talking about, how is it possible for one individual to acquire that many guns, that much ammunition in such a short

period of time? we should have stronger databases that would at least let the police officers know that something like that is going on. >> that would work. as i asked you a question, i want everyone to let you know we're looking at what's happen gt outside the suspect's apartment. that's james holmes' apartment. as you heard the police say earlier, they have successfully managed to deactivate one trip wire and one incendiary device, but they've got a lot of painstakingly, slow, careful work ahead of them, which they obviously are continuing right here. karen, the brady campaign to prevent gun violence has given our president an "f" rating on gun control. do you think the colorado shooting may cause president obama to evolve his stance? >> i sure hope so. i think part of the problem is the nra has had such a lock on both republicans and democrats in this country when it comes to even discussing gun control. i mean, look at the kind of conspiracy theories that we've heard that, you know, the gun

walking program to mexico was about taking away your guns, now there's a theory that perhaps the u.n. is trying to take away people's guns. we cannot demonize these conversations. these are important policy conversations that need to be had. i certainly hope there becomes the political pressure on our president -- let's be honest, it also has to be felt on republicans and democrats at all levels of government -- to come together and say, how do we protect our second amendment rights bud do a better job of making sure that our law enforcement have the tools they need to keep us safe that we're protecting our loved ones from people's ability to purchase these kinds of high-ammo guns, this kind of weaponry when it's clearly not for, you know, an entertainment or casual purpose? >> well, i will duly note that much of this conversation can be agreed upon by everybody listening and those both of you being here to participate, karen finny, alice stewart, ladies, thank you. we're going live now to

nbc's mike taibbi. he's been standing outside james holmes' apartment, at least as close as he's allowed to be for safety. mike, what do you see going on? >> reporter: we've seen a lot in the past ho half hour. people and equipment has been moved closer to the apartment. they've now defeated the fist of the trip wires and first of the incendiary devices at the ent rabs of the apartment. a lot more work to do, that you've also said. we've now watched as two guys in helmets and anti-explosive gear entering from the aerial ladder on top of the roof. the ladder has descended into the apartment one assumes from the top to go all the way in or get a closer look. the next step, the next phase in this -- we'll get a heads-up on this -- is they will close p peoria street behind me, have a reverse 911 call to everyone in the area saying there may be a controlled detonation. there are other triggering

devices in the apartment. they want to do as little damage as possible to the contents of the apartment for the obvious reason, that they want to preserve any evidence there. there's still a crime to solve here, to figure out how and why it happened and what kind of planning took place, over how much time, and in what detail. obviously the detail of this apartment being booby-trapped, as was incorporated in the warning by mr. holmes when he was arrested, when he surrendered to his arrest early yesterday morning, was true. the apartment was booby-trapped. there was at least one incendiary device. those two aspects now defeated, as we were told in a briefing a short time ago, and now we're waiting for that next step. so everything is happening today as had been predicted this morning when the teams that were resuming the effort to get into the apartment resumed that effort this morning at about 6:00 a.m. it's taken this long. they're doing it very deliberately, carefully. we'll see what the next step brings. >> and hearing that there are as many as 60 different devices, it just -- painstaking is hardly

the word to even describe what they have ahead of them. mike, can i ask you about the description of the incendiary device, if they were able to defuse -- we had heard some descriptions about bottles being filled up with liquids. what are we talking about here, a colt bottke bottle, a spark l bottle? >> reporter: we heard nothing else today, but chief dan oates was somewhat specific yesterday, saying there were trip wires around the entrance to the apartment or around the apartment floor that were leading to jars or bottles of substances which may have been incendiary. he mentioned possible chemical devices, other incendiary devices. but he wasn't any more specific than that. there are rounds of ammunition, at least 30 or so, that were counted. they'll be brought out and packed in sand and brought to a detonation area. as far as what else is in the apartment, they don't know all of that yet. they're using robotic intrusion to get in there and get analysis in that way. and at some point they're going

to want to get in. if, after they've had these controlled debt faces nair necessary, controlled fires to clear that way, if that's necessary, they'll start collecting that evidence. that will be that phase of the investigation. >> the camera that they used with that robot yesterday to give them a sense of what they were getting into, was that 100% thorough? have they been able to see every of square inch of that apartment? >> reporter: you know, it really works in real life the way it does in some movies. i think in some movies i've seen the device that's are on an arm in telescope in and moves flexible. it rarely works that way. what i can say is one officer i spoke to just before you and i spoke this morning, told me his colleagues with whom he had spoken who looked at the video said it looked like the set of a horror movie, the s. chief oates himself said it was a vexing problem he had never seen or heard anything quite like that. that is what they're dealing

with. let's make no mistake. sergeant cassidy carson told us that trip wire led to an incendiary device. that had one purpose, the purpose was to kill whoever entered the parm. she used those words. na's true, then the mayhem that was visited at the theater complex was not the last of the mayhem intended by this alleged suspect. alex? >> mike, can i ask you -- >> reporter: you can see behind me. you can see the two guys, i don't know if they ever left that platform on top of the extended aerial, but that's where they've been moving for the past 15 minutes or so. i don't know what they can see. i don't know what devices or cameras or anything else they may have with them. but that's part of the process leading to the next step, probably the ultimate step becau. >> mike, may i just ask you, that building that's behind you, not the apartment building, but it looks like some store fronts there. has all of that been evacuated

as well? there's no business going on today, right? >> reporter: no, there's no business there. but i'll tell you on the other side one block away on 16th street there's a small mini mall with a nice spanish food restaurant, a laundromat, couple of other things. they're still doing business. the four buildings directly adjacent to the apartment building where holmes lived, including this little complex you're talking about here, are all evacuated. those tenants, occupants were allowed last night to go back in under police escort to their buildings, not to holmes' building, to retrieve personal items, people things. they were told it would be at least a day before they could get back in their buildings. >> mike taibbi, many thanks for the live report. it is the top of the hour here, 1:00 p.m. on the east coast, 11:00 a.m. in colorado and

9:00 a.m. on the west coast. we've been following the painstaking efforts by the aurora police department right now to try to defuse whatever incendiary devices are inside of the shooting suspect james holmes' apartment. right now i'm swroined on the phone by retired fbi supervisor and terrorism bomb expert rick hawn. rick, i'm glad you're here to join us. the fact it's taking so long to defuse this situation, what does that tell you about the types of materials or the chemicals that could be inside that apartment? >> well, number one, alex, it tells me there's a great deal of material in there. and, number two, it tells me that, even with the cameras that they've been able to get in, that they can't necessarily certainly tell what exactly the mechanisms are that are going to fire off those devices that are in there. >> rick, we heard a description of there being up to 60 devices or items inside that apartment. now, i'm just thinking about the layout of a floor.

60 perhaps bottles or things, i mean, that can't be possible. how would the man even walk around in there? so, to your estimation, would that include things like ammunition, other potential xblo explosive devices? you can't have the floor covered with 60 bottles filled with things and trip wires, can you, without him having set that off? >> well, it certainly appears he did exactly that and managed to get out of the apartment with an armed what seems to be armed trip wire. again, nothing is for certain in this sort of the a situation. the problem that the police, of course, are confronting is exactly that, that they cannot tell with certainty. and even if they get a camera in, they cannot necessarily get a 360-degree view of any one device and be able to tell exactly how that device is fused. >> so what about determine things like gases or any sort of chemicals? i mean, how difficult is that to

do when you have brick walls that you're dealing with? i mean, what can you do? >> well, some things can be determined just by sec tog raphy. in other words, the chemists can look at the fumes coming out of the air in the apartment and tell if there's accelerants there, may even tell what type of accelerant is in the apartment. but, beyond that, you know, the tricky part here is how things may be fused to detonate or to start an incendiary. >> what about what they can do to make the apartment safe to get into? i mean, all these trip wires that have been described, again, the number 60 has been thrown out there in terms of the number of devices, i mean, how do you even go about defusing all of that to get inside? >> well, ultimately they're going to have to approach these -- and a lot of these may be done robotically. if they can get a robot in the door, the operators of the robots with the bomb squad are

very good at being able to disrupt devices. so the objective here would be to disrupt the fusing mechanism so that the main charge or main incendiary does not function. and that certainly is a possibility when they talk about the controlled detonations, that's exactly what they're talking about. >> you know, i want to ask you in your role as an fbi supervisor and expert on terrorism, rick, the mind of someone who's capable of doing this, is this a mad genius? it. >> well, i think that's an excellent question. i think you've hit upon something that's a real possibility here, that this is a person who's obviously pretty bright, very bright, took the time to learn how to do these things, set this up, and at the same time is completely a madman with not the same respect for human life the rest of us have. >> rick hahn, thank you so much.

>> thank you. for all of you, we're going to stay watching what's happening there, nbc's mike taibbi is as close as he can get to the building, we'll take you back live for more activity. today we're hearing from the families of the victims. we're learning a bit more about the people who died. my colleague chris jansing is joining me from that theater live. chris, you've had some compelling stories and details today. it really ands chills down your spine when you think about these individual, these people and all of their loved ones who have been lost. >> reporter: and it's been a very difficult, as you can imagine, 36 hours or so, many of them not knowing what happened to their loved ones. but some details are starting to emerge. we now have six names of the 12 people who died here. the youngest we now know was little veronica moser, just 6 years old. she was at that theater behind me with her mother ashley who we are told by ashley's aunt is now paralyzed and doesn't even know

what happened to her 6-year-old daughter. here was part of what annie dalton had to say just a short time ago here on location. >> it's like surreal. everything is sur veal right now. we can't get in the hospital to see her because she's in icu. they'll only let the mom go in. and when the dad tried to identify veronica, of course they wouldn't let him go in. they had to try to just do it by pictures. and, you know, it's -- everybody's doing their job, you know, but -- i don't know. how do you feel. here a 25-year-old girl gets shot and her whole life -- nobody can tell her, her daughter is dead. that's all she's asking about right now. her whole life has changed in a flash. for what? >> reporter: and that is the question that so many people are asking here today, obviously, for what? why did this have to happen? we have seen today, as people have been allowed who have cars still in that parking lot, who

were in that theater that night, to come and to get them. but also just people wanting to come and pay their respects. we've seen them carrying flags and flowers, although -- i don't know if you can see, but there's still yellow crime tape behind me so people aren't actually able to access what is still an active crime scene. we do know in this general vicinity the location has not been settled. there will be a memorial on sunday night. then monday, james holmes, the suspect will be in court for the first time, alex. >> you bring up james holmes, chris. i understand you have new information about him. >> reporter: we are getting this via "the l.a. times." it's fascinating because we know so little about him. back in 2008 he was apparently a camp counselor at a summer camp for disadvantaged children in los angeles. he was in charge of about ten little kids. it was a program that was run by big brothers and big sisters there, and he did stuff with them apparently that any counselor would do at a summer

camp, archery, horse back riding, swimming. and no incident reports at all, no record that there were any problems, no record that any complaints were ever made against him. this is consistent with what we've heard about him, that he was quiet, that he was intelligent, and that it does seem, at least for all the reporters who have been out there looking at high school in california, here at the university, that he didn't seem to have close friends. or if he did, they're not talking. i also want to add that we did go over to the university where, as we reported before, he was in the process of withdrawing from the phd program. and the people that we spoke with there said that they had been asked not to comment on him or on the situation, alex. >> but, chris, based on your reporting, can you put together what in the world happened to this man in the four years that you describe from being a camp counselor for disabled children, ten kids that he's taking care of with no incident whatsoever,

to this? >> reporter: it does seem very jarring. again, it's disadvantaged children who he was working with through the big brothers and big sisters program. >> i'm sorry. thank you for correcting me. >> reporter: but it is such a juxtaposition of images. you have first of all these descriptions in california that he was intelligent. we know that he graduated with honors from undergrad school. not exactly simple pursuit. this is someone studying neuroscience. he comes here. he was living in an apartment building -- i know we've shown pictures where the bomb experts are -- it's a very typical graduate student housing. we did get some information about the apartment itself from somebody who lived in that exact apartment who said just two years ago he rented it for $525 a month. it's a one-bedroom. he thought it was about 800 square feet. he described it as a very typical apartment. he was quiet but for somebody who's in neuroscience obviously

a very challenging graduate program, it wouldn't be surprising, you know, if he was in his apartment a lot, he was studying had a lot of work to do. and so this new report that's emerging about him as a camp counselor for big brothers and big sisters would absolutely fly in the face of what we believe we know now, especially given this tragic new information that the youngest victim was just 6 years old, alex. >> it is absolutely heartbreaking. chris jansing, thank you very much for your perspective, as always. i want to let all of you know that chris will be joining the network here at 3:00 p.m. eastern, bringing us live coverage from aurora, colorado. chris follows a special "dateline" on the tragedy at the top of the hour at 2:00 eastern here on msnbc. want to give you a look right now at what we have coming up. we're going to take you back, if we can, and show you what's happening in that apartment. you see that tall crane, and we've seen at the top of

other -- top of a fire ladder, we've seen those police officers trying to go in to get rid of anything that might trip them up from getting inside that pafr apartment and defusing all of those many incendiary devices inside. a fascinating story coming up after the break. the woman who is the neighbor of james holmes, she lived directly underneath his apartment, she came very close to potentially losing her life, had she acted on an instinct that night. we'll speak with her after a break. hey eddie. i brought your stuff. you don't have to do this. yes i do. i want you to keep this. it'd be weird. take care. you too. [ sighs ] so how did it go? he's upset. [ male announcer ] spend less time at gas stations. with best in class fuel economy. it's our most innovative altima ever.

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we continue to follow the developing situation outside the colorado gunman's apartment. police say they have already defused a trip wire. they're now reassessing the situation. they may detonate a booby-trap soon. the shooting of course left 12 people dead, 58 others injured, and the suspect is scheduled to be arraigned on monday morning. well, neighbors of the suspected gunman in aurora, they are sharing new details about james holmes. joining me now is one of those neighbors, caitlin fonzy who lives directly below james holmes' apartment. caitlin, thank you so much for joining me. i want to get right to where you were on friday night. we're talking about midnight, late at night, where you heard apparently some tech nno-like ld music coming from the apartment. tell me what happened. >> yeah. right at exactly midnight, my boyfriend and i did hear loud

tech te techno music coming from above us. it was odd for our apartment building. we never heard anybody upstairs. we knew somebody lived there, but we were never aware of anyone playing music up there. he had advised me not to -- to just call the cops and leave it alone, but i decided to go upstairs and knock on the door. when i realized that it was unlocked, i thought about peering my head in there, you know, yelling and saying, hey, turn it down. >> caitlin, how did you realize the door was unlocked? it wasn't ajar, was it? >> no. it wasn't ajar, but when i knocked on it, it was as if the dead bolt wasn't locked. the door is the exact same as on our apartment so i could kind of tell. >> now that you know what is going on up in that apartment, let's talk about what ran through your mind. first at that point when you realized that the door was unlocked, you wisely chose not to peer your head in to say, hey, buddy, turn down the music.

but think about then and what you know now. what runs through your head? >> i definitely feel very lucky that i had an instinct or an impulse not to open that door. and it's very scary how close i came to doing that. >> have you been talked to by police? have they said to you that you might have tripped something and that you could have been killed? >> the only information i received from police is when we were evacuated. since thin i haven't been spoken to. the only information i've gotten about what's in that apartment is what's been broadcast publicly. >> talk about james holmes. you said that you didn't really know somebody lived up there, but now that you have seen his picture, i'm sure, spread out over newspapers and on television, do you recognize him? did you ever see him there at the apartment building? >> i think i saw him once or twice just around the apartment building, but, yeah, i didn't know that he was part of our apartment complex. >> and when you talk about having a quiet neighbor, you

hadn't heard music before, how quiet? could it easily have been someone -- an empty apartment, someone who didn't live there? >> it could have been empty, yes. but we knew that the building was full so we just suspected somebody wasthere. >> your apartment building, describe it to me, the fpeople there. are they mostly students or locals working in the community? how big an apartment building is it? how many tenants are there? >> it's only 12 units, and most of the people are single so there aren't many tenants there. we're all students or work for the university so we keep to ourselves for the most partnd everyone is on a different schedule so you don't see many people around. >> so it's not usual for you guys to stop in the halls and say, hey, what's going on or anything like that, it's not that kind of community-oriented building? >> it's really not, no. >> have you been given any information from police as to when you might be able to return

home? >> no. like i said, i haven't been contacted by them at all since we were evacuated so we don't even have an idea currently as to when we'll be allowed back into the residence. >> how was the evasion was? what happened? >> after the music went off at 1:00, chris and i decided it would be okay to go to sleep. we tried to lay down and go to bed. right about 2:00 is when i heard a loud crash, which i now know was the s.w.a.t. team breaking down the door to the apartment building. then we heard knocks on each door and we were bas cli just whisked out of our apartments immediately. we had a couple of minutes to grab what we could, which in our case was the clothes on aour backs and a phone and our wallets and keys. >> i mean, give me the sense of urgency that the police, the s.w.a.t. team, as they're knocking on your door make. are they banging, wake up, you've got to get out? what happens in that situation? >> it was urgent. they didn't really say anything until i opened the door. they -- the first thing they said to us is, are you the only

one in here? i said, no, i have one other person. they're, like, you need to get up and get your things and get out of here. >> what goes through your mind? >> at that moment it was just -- i was kind of in shock, i think, and i just went through the motions to leave. then once we were outside, it was just like -- we just wanted to know what was going on, which we didn't even figure out until we saw it on the news on our way to where we were staying. >> and where are you staying? are you able to stay there for some time, caitlin? >> yeah, we're staying with one of chris' relatives, which is nice to have family around here to go to. >> well, caitlin fonzi, i tell you, it's an extraordinary experience that you've had. i bet you are very grateful that you didn't open that door because goodness knows what might have happened to you. we're glad you're here to tell us your story. thank you, caitlin. best of luck to you. >> yes, thank you. again, we are looking at what's happening. this is the active scene there

in aurora, colorado, as we look at the back side of the apartment building. that apartment is the apartment that has been booby-trapped by the suspected gunman james holmes. we're going to talk with rick hahn, a terrorism expert, after a short break here on msnbc. building pass, corporate card, verizon 4g lte phone. the global ready one ? yeah, but you won't need... ♪ hajimemashite. hajimemashite. hajimemashite. you guys like football ? thank you so much. i'm stoked. you stoked ? totally. ... and he says, "under the mattress." souse le matelas. ( laughter ) why's the new guy sending me emails from paris ? paris, france ? verizon's 4g lte devices are global-ready. plus, global data for just $25. only from verizon.

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rick hahn. rick, back at you again. i thank you for taking the time. as we look at how much time it's taking to defuse all of this, what does it tell you about the types of materials, chemicals, perhaps, that are inside that apartment? it looks like we may have just lost rick an ton the phone. we'll try and dial him back in. once again, everyone, what you are seeing is painstakingly going in trying to gently insert these long poles and i guess see if there's trip wires in there. we did see robots yesterday that were able to go in on similar looking kind of long extensions with cameras on the end of them and took what was used to give them a general idea of the layout of things, looking at the problems that they may face. for those of you just joining us, we were able to speak with caitlin fonzi a short time ago, who lives directly underneath where that crane is right now.

she's on the floor right below james holmes' apartment. she reported how at midnight sharp on thursday night into friday morning until 1:00 a.m. she heard this large amount of loud techno music. it was going through the entire building, and she said it was just too loud to bear. and she, against her boyfriend's recommendation and wishes, went upstairs to knock on the door of this apartment. and she had said previously that she didn't know who james holmes was and that he wasn't somebody that was living around that apartment building. but imagine if you will, she knocked on that door and she was able to feel that that door was unlocked, and she fought an instinct to turn that knob and open the door, peering her head inside, to say, hey, turn down this music, it is too loud. it is a blessing she did, given what she may have experienced there. we did hear from the aurora police department who gave a news conference just about 40

minutes ago now in which they said that one of those devices has been successfully deactivated, but it is something that was set up to detonate. so there's a pretty good indication there may be more there, and we're going to stay on top of this story. we'll try and speak with rick hahn as well. stay with us, everyone. here on a special edition of "weekends with alex witt." [ birds chirping ] [ engine revving ] ♪ hey, hey, hey ♪ [ tires screech ] [ male announcer ] with fuel economy that's best in class and better acceleration than camry and accord, you'll wish you had the road to yourself. [ tires screech ] it's our most innovative altima ever. nissan. innovation that excites.

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and remove one incendiary devices. but the police officer who spoke said it was indeed set up to detonate. i'm joined on the phone by former fbi supervisor and terrorism and bomb expert rick hahn. rick, i know we were cut off earlier. thanks for joining me again. when you look at what these guys are doing, is there any way they're being overcautious given what they believe is it inside? i mean thshgs is pathis is painstakingly slow. there's one device removed, as many as 60 reportedly inside. >> oh, absolutely. they are in no way being too painstaking. the problem, again, is that they simply cannot tell exactly how these devices may be fused. and their safety and the safety of anyone else that may be in the area is at risk here. so i don't think there's any way that they could rush this at all. >> so we're looking at -- i mean, how long? they physically have to clear either one of those windows that

they're working on or a doorway. we're not even sure they're working on the doorway. we're not allowed into the apartment building to see if they're working on the front door. would you think they are, given what you're seeing? or do you think they're just trying to access this apartment by the windows? >> alex, i think they're probably trying to see with the human eye as much as possible. to me, that means they may even with opening up the roof of the building. >> that's a good idea. absolutely hadn't thought of that. and when they get through either the roof or the front door or the window, when you talk about all of these incendiary devices, all of these trip wires, what kind of a mess might they find? how interconnected can these things be and yet actually be effective and blow up? >> well, they could all be interconnected certainly, and, again, the problem is, without knowing, these individuals have to be extremely cautious. their safety, the safety of

others around is the number one issue here. evidence is purely a secondary type of issue. and, even if they opened up the entire ceiling of that apartment, whether or not they could move or remove those items safely is completely an open question at this point in time. >> yeah. hey, rick, can these things be very rudimentary and be that effective? or do they have to be more sophisticated? >> no, alex. you know, unfortunately, explosive powders and incendiary devices can be extremely effective. the only limiting factor here is that, at least through the camera, the police know the sort of quantities they're dealing with. based on the quantities they've set up what's the safe area of evacuation for these devices. >> yeah. and, to that end, rick, please don't leave us. i'm bringing in nbc's mike taibbi who's live on the scene, joins us on the phone. mike, with regard to the evacuation area, how large an area is that?

[ inaudible ] >> -- didn't mean all the buildings within that half square mile needed to be evacuated. some were vacant to begin with. the officers who were beginning at the point of entry to the apartment were doing sort of the same thing yesterday. they are asoesing the circumstances following what was defeating a first set of trip wires and incendiary devices this the apartment. i don't know when or if they're going in. they're still talking about the possibility of that controlled explosion at some point. before that happened, as they've been saying again and again, there will be a heads-up to everybody in the area with a reverse 911 call and to the media here and i guess about 110 yards away from this part of the building. so that hasn't happened yet. i think they're still in the exploratory stage trying to find out what they've learned to this point, what they may yet learn

given the access they may have where the trip wire was defeated already. we're waiting for additional word and we haven't gotten that heads-up yet. hold on a second. i think the police may be stopping traffic now. that may be the signal we've been waiting for that there's actually going to be an entry. let me look down this end. yeah, they have now stopped traffic going in both directions toward the intersection where we are right now. you can see the two officers in the street, i believe, heading back down with one rnp, radio controlled car with its lights flashing. traffic has been stopped. >> i don't know if you have a monitor to see what one camera is providing us, but that ladder has been moved away from the building, and it looks like anybody who was on that ladder has left it. so it could be some sort of break, but why in the world would they stop traffic if that

were the case. >> reporter: i can see the same picture you're looking at right now on the monitor. my long-range vision is good enough to see it. i don't know what's going to happen on this side. but you're right, it seems as they they've cleared that area of the officers who were right at the point of entry. >> let's bring in rick hahn. mike, stay with us. rick, as you think about the potential of trying to detonate something, i mean, how big could that get, an explosion that would come from an apartment this size with the kinds of materials that we believe to be used in there, a lot of it liquids? we're not talking c4s that we've learned about. how big of an explosion could this be? could it take out a whole building? >> alex, here's the analysis based on what information we have. if there are 60 devices in there and, say, 30 of them are liquid and 30 solid, that's not to say

that even the liquids are not explosives. i mean, nitro jglycerin, for example, is liquid. potentially you could have 60, 70, 80 pounds of high explosives in that apartment. i don't know because i can't see what they're seeing. >> right. but, rick, if the police were going to detonate, certainly they're not going to detonate something that they think they couldn't control, right? >> that's the objective certainly. but, alex, the risk is the whole thing goes up all at once. there's also this factor, and that's what we call sympathetic detonation, which means a high explosive in proximity to another high explosionive that similar thet cli detonates itself. >> mike, have the police given you any indication when they've talked to you about this radius that they've put out there for evacuation? i mean, they must feel confident that whatever they may encounter

would not extend beyond that evacuated radius. >> reporter: are you asking me, alex? >> i am. have they wavered at all in the radius of evacuation? >> reporter: they haven't talked about that at the scene here. they've been circumspect in what they've told us except whatever they're doing they're doing with caution in mind obviously with the personnel who are dealing with the apartment building, but also the public walking by, riding by, the media on this side of pea oth peoria street. one point i want to make, alex, richard adams, a colleague from our burbank bureau, did an interview with a former student at university of california riverside who was in class with james holmes. she spent a fair amount of time with him. said good things about him. she said, look, he wasn't a loner completely. he did talk to people. he webt snowboarding, did other

things. here's my assessment of him. he was not a genius, just really smart. a really smart guy is obviously who set up the apartment the way it is now, causing such fits for the aurora police department and others as well. now we're getting some word here. officer, is this the heads-up we're getting for everybody with traffic stopped? >> i need you to stay where you are. people stay where you are. >> reporter: i'm sorry? we've just been told -- there's some shouting now. you can see some personnel tucking behind the cab of that vehicle.

>> here we go, guys! >> reporter: and you just heard what was clearly a controlled explosion. or seems to be a controlled explosion. we can't tell from where we're sitting. alex, did you hear that? >> reporter: we sure did. we can't see smoke emanating from the apartment. can you see anything we're not? wait a minute. there's someone inside? it looks like either part of a windowpane was knocked out or the window frame? i don't know if somebody did that from inside or it just fell on its own. >> reporter: it may well be. i don't have eyes in the back of my head, not yet anyway, i'm looking at this building from this side and trying to look at the monitor. all i know is people on this side -- go ahead, alex. >> i was going to ask rick. rick hahn, were you able to hear that explosion, that sound? >> i did. my guess, alex, is that was probably a disruptor, a tool that the bomb squads use to disrupt the fusing mechanism on explosive devices.

>> explain that a little further. how can you have some sort of explosion or a disruptor when you're looking at a place that's not all that large and packed with some 60 different devices? how big are these things? >> the disruptor itself is approximately the size of a shotgun, and in fact the shell it fires is very similar to a shotgun shell in terms of its explosive load. it could very well be that that window, if there's aa window blown out, is a result of that disruptor functioning inside the apartment. >> i want to let all of you know, one way the aurora police department is getting its message out is via twitter. they have just tweeted that the detonation was successful. so, far you, mike taibbi, there on scene, that's good to know. now, where that leads us is uncertain. and to you, rick, if they have been able to successfully work on trip wires, as you're suggesting, would that then immediately allow personnel to get inside the apartment and

take a look? >> no, i don't think at this point that they would want to let personnel in, but the good news is that they successfully disrupted at least one fusing mechanism. and depending upon how many of these devices were fused together, there may be another dozen, there may be another 30 fusing mechanisms that they'll want to disrupt. but the bottom line is that they successfully did one so your chances of success with successive ones is greatly enhan enhanced. >> this is the kind of painstaking process they may have to set up. talk about the precision needed, rick, to successfully do what they've apparently just done. when you say you're looking at something the size of a shotgun, did you say, casing or a shell? >> it's very similar to a shotgun, and it's typically -- they operate these things from a robot. the robot goes in with its cameras, looks at the device. they analyze it, try and

determine exactly where the fusing mechanism is, how they could shoot that fusing mechanism away from the main charge and thereby successfully disarm the device. >> how far away from the actual explosive device can one defuse it? i mean, can it be feet, or does it have to be within inches? does it depend on the device? >> it certainly depends on the device, but typically you're not talking about more than about 15 or 16 inches. >> wow, that's pretty precise. >> yes. >> mike, have you heard anything from the police? have they given you any update yet? >> reporter: they haven't given us an update. the only thing i've noticed is the demeanor on the officers' faces seem to have relaxed to some degree. you can see the two doing traffic control are heading back to the scene. there is a truck dispensing water and supplies for the crews, people are walking around nearer the building and not ducking behind vehicles, can which was the case about three

minutes ago just before we heard that explosion. but what was instructive about the explosion, maybe mr. hahn can talk about this, too, once they made the decision to go in there, whether it was robot for this explosive device, there wasn't a lot of lead time. we were supposed to be told they were going to stop traffic and that would be lead time. all of a sudden traffic stopped and as you heard the device went off. >> it looks like traffic has returned. >> reporter: here we go again. just happened. so, what, about six minutes from beginning to end of that phase of it. if richard is right, there will be follow-up phases from this point forward. we'll wait to see what happens and to get an update whether it's going to be sergeant carlson or not, i'm sure somebody will explain in a couple of hours here, something, the next step was taken here and you happened to be on the air when it happened. >> yeah. i'm glad we were, with your help, mike taibbi, many thanks for that. rick hahn, before i let you go, can you give a guest i mat as to

how long it may be until the police are able to get in there and try to do this particular procedure again and try and defuse things? do they have to completely start from scratch? make an entirely new game plan to do? or once they've done it once, it will be a lot easier to get to the next and subsequent ones after that? >> you're right on the money again, alex. certainly in terms of how quickly they can approach the next device, having had success with the fist one, means that they've got a fairly good handle on how these things are fused and should be able to approach the second one in relatively short time. now, the problem of course is we don't know exactly how many fusing mechanisms there may be in there. this could still theoretically go on until tomorrow. and i wouldn't be surprised at all if at least the search phase did not start until tomorrow. >> you know, rick, we're looking and the guys are already back up

there in that bucket that's off of that fire truck. that doesn't surprise you? looks like they're going right back in all over again. >> well, of course, the disruptor, if the disruptor was powerful enough to blow out that window, it probably also drup d disrupted some of the other devices. the scene in the room has changed. they'll want to get a view of at that and see what else they can see that they couldn't. >> rick hahn, i appreciate your expertise weighing in on this. i have to say i appreciate it even more so that we were able to get around this actual incident and hear what's going on. it's given me a much better perspective as i hope as well for our viewers as to what exactly goes on here and the painstaking detailed process by process. thank you so much, guys. everyone, we're going to take a short break here on msnbc. we'll be right back with a new fbi warning you all should hear. [ annie ] this is the story of annie,

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at 49 past, giving you an update on this developing

situation outside the colorado gunman's apartment. police have now defused the trip wire, of course, to one incendiary device, say they have completed a successful detonation and we were on live and heard warni ining sirens, t loud blasts before a small explosion blast. police painstaking process continues. now to a new fbi warning. nbc news national correspondent is joining us live from washington about that. good day, michael. what do you know? >> good day, alex. i don't know if warning is the right word. there was a homeland security bulletin that went out last night saying first of all, there is no indications of any other plots or attacks on movie the theaters. obviously there has been a lot of stepped-up security of showings of batman movies around the country, but no evidence of any further or follow-up attacks are all indications that mr. holmes was acting alone.

but the fbi did warn or advise movie theaters to step up security, look for people wearing strange clothing, look for people who are wearing excessive clothing where they might be trying to hide something. some of the movie theaters, i think amc has banned people coming in wearing masks. so there is a lot of anxiety out there, but not clear whether there is any sort of rational reason for that at this point beyond the fact of just the shocking news of what happened yesterday. >> yaureah, but michael, people there are suggesting to use common sense. we are in the summer months, so if you see people sporting long clothing and things like that, you have to sort of put two and two together. >> right, and i think that's something we would be wanting to do regardless. of course, we're all a little bit heightened after a horrific attack like this. more broadly, there is concern and chatter in the security

community about so-called soft targets, which are really anyplace where large numbers of people gather, community centers, swimming pools, the shopping malls where somebody like mr. holmes who wants to do something like this can easily attack. there is no security, there is really no practical way to protect places like this, and it is worth noting that in the 18 months since gabby giffords was shot at that tucson shopping mall, there have been something like 60 multiple shootings with three or more victims around the country at, inevitably, soft targets like these. there was one just this month at a soccer field in wilmington, at nightclubs, in funeral parlors. these are the kind of places that security experts worry about, and movie theaters have long been at the top of the

list. this is the first time we've seen an attack like this at a movie theater. >> why people are going these places carrying guns is a mystery to me, but that's a whole other conversation which i'm happy to have with you at some point. michael is -- isikoff. shale was sitting in the front row of the theater when the gunman started shooting. shale, i'm glad you're with us today. tell us what happened, what you saw and when you knew there was trouble. >> well, first of all, i want to ask the question the whole world wants to know, of why the gunman did it, because that easily could have been me, especially from where i was sitting. i was sitting in the front row of, like, right before -- the row right before the front row, and we was watching the movie batman, and like 15 minutes into the movie, we heard somebody come into the door. i saw a man come in all in black with a gas mask type of thing.

at first i thought nothing about it, that somebody was maybe pranking the theater, that they were throwing gimmicks to go with the movie. i saw he had tear gas. he had popped the top and you could hear the gas coming out. when he threw it across the theater, it landed behind me, like at the top of the theater, and blew up. that's when everybody jumped up and started panicking. as he did that, i looked and got a quick glance at him pulling out his shotgun and releasing three fire shots. i seen the muzzle blades or whatever. it keeps playing in my mind. it's devastating. >> i can't imagine how you've been able to sleep, if you have, shale. they described him as he just sort of calmly walked around, that there was this loud movie being played on the screen, and that the screaming began, but this guy just calmly walked

around? >> yes, he walked around as if -- like, it was just like how the term denominator would walk around in his movie. arnold schwarzenegger, how he played that role. he walked in, popped the top off of his bomb, threw it across the theater and it blew up. he pulled his gun out. he didn't make no noises, he didn't talk, no nothing, and he just let off shots. i seen him, and lucky enough, i was on the other side of this theater or that could have been easily me on the other side. >> shale, they said he started shooting at people trying to escape. did you see that, as people tried to get to the exits he tried to pick them off? >> no, because i seen him release the first three shots, and i had ducked down behind my seat and ran out. i was one of the first few that made it out. i could stale heill hear the gu

going off. >> how long were they still going off, the gunshots? >> i would say about two minutes. when i was outside, that's when people started coming out, and i just noticed all the injured people. i seen a girl that was brutally injured. she had gunshot wounds in her back and all that was being carried out by a police officer, and i also witnessed another injured victim that was shot in the neck and he was bleeding all over his clothes. i never saw anything like that in real life. >> i can imagine. god willing, i hope you don't have to see it again. he started his terrorist activity there when batman first appeared on screen? is that true, or is that just a rumor? >> yes, that is the truth. he appeared right after the villain had came on. the villain had said the words, don't be scared and had jumped out of the airplane, and we were getting to the part where he was meeting the old bruce wayne. he was just coming onto the

screen and was just getting introduced to batman. >> it is an extraordinary tale you have to tell, chayyiel jackson. thank you for your story, chayyiel. now for a special dateline report on the tragedy, that is coming up next. after that, chris jansing will continue our live coverage from aurora as we learn more about those who lost their lives and are still fighting for it. honey!? driftwood. come on, you gotta help us out here a little. [ male announcer ] febreze eliminates odors and leaves carpets fresh. ♪ [ male announcer ] febreze. eliminates odors and leaves carpets fresh. ♪ and leaves carpets fresh. why every room deservestell us what to look great.olor is? and every footstep should tell us we made the right decision.

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