a smart move, let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews and welcome to this special edition of "hardball." when a candidate for president is confident when he thinks he's going to win he plays it safe and for months mitt romney played it safe. don't offend anyone, don't make news. just be the alternative to barack obama and the weak economy and you'll win. so make a safe choice for vice

president like tim pawlenty or rob portman, but something happened on the way to the white house for romney, the obama attacks were working. bain, tax returns, man of the wealthy. romney was becoming the velcro candidate, everything negative was sticking. as that weren't enough, the dam broke, romney's top spokesperson seemed to backtrack on the evils of health care, the right wing which never trusted romney exploded with anger and a trio of polls came out showed romney losing ground and fast. whenever the cautious mitt romney made his decision today in norfolk virginia, he went bold, announcing paul ryan of wisconsin as his running mate, the same paul ryan whose budget plan makes massive cuts in the social safety net, leaves defense alone and passes most of the savings to the wealthy. it's a pick that cements romney with the right, it gives his campaign the spring of enthusiasm, it desperately needs, and i believe a spine of conviction. this election will no longer be just about president obama. mitt romney has lashed himself to ryan's budget and his kandzsy

may live or die based on whether romney can defend it. joining me is the moderator of nbc's memory david gregory and nbc's political director, chuck todd, he's also white house correspondent. let's start with david. i guess i want a judgment out of you. from the early returns, does it look to be a smart move, picking ryan for vp? >> well, on your final point which i think is important, the spine of conviction in this campaign, i do think it's a smart choice on this first day of this rollout. what is mitt romney achieved just today? it's a very attractive picture of romney and ryan, you know, falls easily off the tongue. ryan has a terrific-looking family. he's going to be an energetic campaigner. he can raise money. he can make romney more enthusiastic as i thought he was throughout virginia today. and he can be not only a strong surrogate but he can really take the fight to president obama. but that spine of conviction doesn't take away the negatives, cress, and i still think he's a

target-rich environment, the medicare proposals, his budget, all of that is something that romney has to own and, you said it, he's got to defend it now. this is a race to define ryan before ryan can even define himself. and there's not a lot of time to do this. >> let me go to chuck on this. it seems to me the most thinking people out there paying attention to this election people that watch programs like this and keep up with the news know something big and bold has to be done to fix the economy. they know it will involve pain. they've already discounted the facts that democrats will jump this guy for his budget cuts. >> no, i don't think so. no. look, i think this pick today was good for mitt romney. he needed definition. he needed -- it is a great line. i echo what david said, this sort of spine of conviction. he needed to send this message to the electorate that he wasn't a guy that sort of just you didn't know where he stood, you weren't quite sure about him. there was more to him than simply the rich guy, you know,

the rich guy, the woman or this or that -- >> who needs the more spine, him or the guy that he picked? >> the issues themselves if you will. this election went from something that was going to get fought on a 51-49 margin, a tighter margin, high floor, low ceiling, that there's suddenly going to be a widening, if you will. this is -- this is going to be a clear contrast. this is going to be an argument on substance. it's not going to be a campaign of distractions anymore, if you will on either side. it really is i think in the high-minded folks should be happy about that. it should be a good, substancive debate. but i think there will be a clear winner or a clear loser. you know, one thing i'll say, and i can tell you this, i get the sense that privately republicans are more nervous today about this pick. republicans not connected to the romney campaign, but they -- but republicans that are connected to house and senate races.

little phenomenon i noticed, unofficial, saw a lot of press releases from senate democratic campaigns today talking about ryan. didn't see many from senate republican campaigns today talking about ryan. so saw a lot of house republicans put out -- put out statements praising -- praising ryan, but the guys that sit there that have to win swing voters in statewide elections, boy, i'm sensing a hesitancy and a nervousness among those republicans. >> okay, let's take a look. here's congressman ryan of wisconsin hitting president obama hard slow this morning for how slow the economic recover's been coming. let's listen -- >> it is our duty to save the american dream for our children and theirs. no one disputes that president obama inherited a difficult situation. and in his first two years with his party in complete control of washington, he passed nearly every item on his agenda. but that didn't make things

better. in fact, we find ourselves in a nation facing debt, doubt, and despair. this is the worst economic recovery in 70 years. >> david, you can hear it in his voice. the man's a crusader. he sticks his chin out. he takes his punches. he's going big picture and he knows the little picture's are always going to be painful, and he's betting the american people will take a big gamble going forward with some pain rather than sticking with what we've got. that seems to be what chuck is talking about. it's not a hard election to make your decision as a voter. you'll be able to see two different guys here, two different teams. >> big campaign, big problems, big ideas, and a big debate about what it is government ought to do in this economy. with regard to the social safety net, with regard to trying to create economic growth. you know, this is the debate that americans should want to have. the reality is that it's still a very tough thing to bring to

voters. voters certainly want to cut the deficit. they're worried about the debt. but they don't want you to mess with the programs that they really like. that's always the difficulty. and, you know, ryan has said that one of the strengths that he has, why he's been reelected in a more democratic district, is that, you know, folks he talks to like the fact that he tells it to them straight and he levels with them about what the choices are and some of the pain that they have to experience. well, we'll see how that plays on a national scale. look, he was somebody who was a proponent of privatizing partially social security, went even farther that the bush team thought they were willing to go and that became a losing effort for them. medicare is such a tough issue to win in a presidential campaign. republicans even before the ryan pick were worried about what team obama would do to romney on this particular issue. and to your point about style, you know, i've been around congressman ryan, i've interviewed him on "meet the press" four times. you know, he is an intense guy. he's isser er iser i er iser ss

got serious issues about the economy and how the government should operate. is he a true legislator. is he a classic politician, can he move people. this is a big test for him now. >> chuck, to your point, republican strategists might not like the ryan pick as much as the tea party will like it. politico published this quote today, we might as well have just picked a random heritage foundation analyst. the good news is that this ticket now has a vision. the bad news is that the vision is basically just a chart of numbers used to justify poll sis that are extremely unpopular. i would argue, let me try this by you, chuck, you are as political as i am in looking at this stuff. you have an ideological choice especially with the contribution of ryan, he's an ayn rand objective, a libertarian guy that believes the wealthy people with sort of smarts and ambition should be given encouragement to be the way they are. we're not sitting around propping people up, we're

basically encouraging the winners, we don't worry about the losers in society. the other side, sal aliinski cares deeply about people in trouble, worries about the working poor that haven't gotten a break in your life. it seems to me you're really getting a choice here, not an echo. >> well, i do think -- yes, i hear you on that. i think there is going to be this bright choice. but, you know, i think ryan's got a couple challenges here, and i think that on one hand he is thought of as this cerebral guy inside the republican party, sort of the conservative soul, the economic conservative soul of the republican party. and at the same time, you know, he's going to be making this argument about, you know, tackling entitlements this is what you have to do, the debt, and all of these things. and then he's going to have to answer for, okay, you're asking n for sacrifice on the social safety net, but are not asking for sacrifice -- >> right. >> -- when it comes to tax cuts. and you were talking about, hey, it's time to do some tough things on the -- on the lines of

bowles simpson and he's somebody that has spoken positively on bowles/simpson but was on the commission and voted against it. he has his only credibility issues that he has to be careful about and sort of explain now that he's on the national ticket and basically leading the republican party here. >> let's take a look at the matchup for vice president now. he goes against what looks like joe biden will get the nod pretty sure, it's pretty much a certainty he'll be on the ticket. what do you think the debate will be about, here's a debate against a cerebral, versus a street politician guy, not necessarily a wonk. >> i think biden's going to know how to handle that. i think that there's no question that paul ryan is going to know how to handle himself on the issues, you know, i mean he's a -- he's a guy who can put a laser focus on the economy and on the debt. it's what he's studied so much and as budget chairman, what he really knows, he knows how to argue it and he can take a

punch, but can he sell some of the more draconian approaches to a broad audience out there and take some of the punches from biden on what chuck was just talking about, about tax cuts that affect -- positively affect the wealthy, not touching defense spending by and large. and not even, you know, living up to his own pronouncements about what government should do in terms of investing in infrastructure or what romney talked about today investing in programs to help job training and competitiveness. well, what should government be doing to try to help an economy along? because what you look at or what you see in the ryan budget is really an incredible contraction of government, and philosophically what you're talking about is the emphasis of the individuals' ability to prosper on his or her own and get the collective out of the way. get government out of the way. i mean, is he going to be able to make that sell with joe biden in the course of a debate? and, by the way, foreign policy

is not an area that he has experience and he's going to have to catch up. >> let's go to paul ryan, he's speaking in manassas, virginia, along with mitt romney. >> let's just review things for a moment. let's see where things stand. you think the economy's heading in the right direction? you think we're getting our debt and deficit under control? you think the country's on the right track? do you know why? because president obama is our president and he has put all of his policies in place, and they're just not working. take a look at the results. we've had the worst recovery in 70 years. we have the largest deficit and the biggest government since world war ii. one out of six americans are in poverty today, the highest rate in a generation. unemployment's been up 8% for 3 years. and the president's answer to this is more crony capitalism,

more corporate welfare, nor solyndras, picking and -- we don't think the secret to economic growth is politicians in washington and bureaucrats picking winners and losers in our economy. the secret to economic growth is letting people keep more of what they earn and helping small businesses grow and compete and achieve and create jobs. you see, the president has shown us his aspirations for a government-centered society with a government-run economy. it's not working. it's never worked before. and so president obama's not going to be able to run for re-election on his record because it's a terrible record, and he didn't change tune, he didn't moderate, he stayed hard left.

so, what does he have left? not only nothing, he's going to divide the country to distract the country to try and win this election by default. hope and change has now become attack and blame. do you know what? we're not going to fall for it. we're not going to fall for this kind of rhetoric that says to people that they're stuck in their station in life, victim of circumstances outside of their control, and only the government is here to help them cope with it. you know what, that's not who we are. that's not the american idea. that's not the america we know, and it's not the america that we're going to have starting next year. somewhere out there on that horizon is the dream you have for yourself and for your children above the discord and the delay and the distractions

of the day, it's there. it's getting farther away because the president has given us policies that have put our nation on a path to debt, doubt, despair, and decline. here's the good news -- we don't have to put up with this. we can turn this thing around. we can get ourselves back on the right track. it's going to take leadership. it's going to mean that politicians have to think about the next generation instead of their next election. and it's going to take a person with experience and leadership. mitt romney in all the things he has done in his life he is the kind of person who was made for this moment. he's the kind of man with the integrity, the experience that we need. when he ran bain, he created jobs. he turned around failing enterprises.

he has firsthand experience that a few have built, started, or run a small business you did that! do you remember the olympics, 1999? people forgot how ugly it got for a moment. it was bloated. wasteful, corrupted. that sound familiar? when his country needed him, mitt romney answered the call, and he saved the olympics and made us proud. >> usa, usa, usa, usa, usa, usa,

usa, usa, usa, usa. >> when he was governor of massachusetts, unemployment went down, the credit rating went up, and household incomes increased. under president obama, unemployment's gone up, household incomes have gone down, and the first time in our nation's history, our credit was downgraded. the contrast could not be more clear. and the choice could not be more clear. here is our commitment to you. you deserve to decide. you deserve to decide what kind of country we're going to have, what kind of people we're going to be. it is our obligation to give you our fellow citizens a choice of two futures. you're going to decide. because if we do this right and we reapply those principles that built this country, we honor you

by letting you decide the choice and course of this country. we will get our country back on november the 6th. this takes special leadership. this takes courage. this takes our country coming together. and you know what, when we do this, we're going to get this done, and we're going to do it because we have a man who is running for president who has the courage, the integrity, the honesty, the experience to put us back to work, to get us back on offense, to make us proud again, to reignite the american dream. ladies and gentlemen, the next president of the united states, mitt romney. >> thank you. thank you!

thank you so much. manassas, you are very kind to welcome us like this. this is a terrific welcome and a pretty clear indication that come november 6th virginia's going to vote for romney/ryan. we're going to take back the white house. now today -- today was a good day for me. i got to tell you. it was also a good day for america. we've taken the next step to restoring america's promise with paul ryan as our nominee for vice president! this is a man who i think you know pretty well. if you said one word about paul ryan, it would probably be leader. this is -- this is a man who learned leadership young,

because leadership is a function of character and courage. as a young man, a high schooler, his dad died, and he was forced to grow up quickly. he and his family came together and instilled in him with the kind of hard working ethics that are associated with the midwest of america. he carries those things in his heart. he's worked in washington over the past 14 years, but you know what, in his heart it's still janesville, wisconsin, small town of america still defines a great man like paul ryan. he didn't -- he didn't go there with ambition to become something big. he went there with ambition to accomplish something big. and he's taken -- he's taken our party and with his intellectual leadership has helped make sure that we focus on values, that we fight for things that we believe in. sometimes our party has come

astray the past years, and paul ryan said, no, bring it home to something we care about, we care for our seniors, we care for our kids, and we stop spending what we don't have. and you know, washington is a place where a lot of people get by just throwing stones at one another. but he took a different appro h approach. he tried to reach across the aisle with friends in our party and people on the other side of the aisle. he's one of those who realizes that honest people can have honest differences. and so he's worked with democrats and republicans to work on major pieces of legislation that help people. right now there's one that he's put out there. you see, the president has put a plan out on medicare. he cuts medicare $700 billion through his obama care plan, and what the -- what paul ryan and cent cent senator wyden have done is said we need to restore, protect, and

retain medicare. that's what our party will do. and this comes at a critical time. as you know, as paul just said to you, this is a critical time for america. you know that. when you have a country as prosperous as ours but 23 million people are out of work or stopped looking for work or underemployed, you know something's wrong. you know when you have a nation that invented public education and our kids are now getting an education that scores in the bottom third of the world, you know something's wrong. when you know a nation as prosperous as ours has put together $16 trillion of debt, passing on our burdens of our generation to the next generation, it's not just wrong, it is immoral for us to put on those obligations to our kids. candidate obama said that he was going to cut the cost for an

average family of their health care premium by $2,500. has your premium gone down, anybody here seen their premiums go down? no. as a matter of fact, the average family is seeing their premiums go up by $2,500. a $5,000 difference in the nation of a median income just about $50,000. think what that means. gasoline prices have doubled. these are critical times in this country. and so you have a choice, america's going to have a choice. i think i know what you guys are going to do, right? america's going to have a choice. they've seen the product of the obama plan. it's been executed over the last 3 1/2 years. it hasn't worked. middle-income families are getting squeezed. people can't find work. we've a very different plan. we don't want america to become europe with high unemployment -- high unemployment, no wage growth, economic calamity at the door.

we want to restore the principles that made america the hope of the earth. and so we'll do this, we're going to do five things. five things that will get this economy going again with more jobs and more take-home pay, these five things. one, take advantage of our energy resources, oil, coal, gas, nuclear, renewable, get america energy independent! that's number one. number two, we need to make sure that our people have the skills to succeed, not just those in the workforce today but also our kids. we will make sure that our schools are focused on the needs of our kids and the parents and the teachers and the teachers union is going to have to take a back seat. we want -- we want trade, that's number three. trade that works for america. we want to open up new markets

for our goods particularly in latin america. but when people cheat in trade like china's cheated, we're going to hold -- hold hem accountable and call them on the carpet. we're going to stop unfair trade. so, number one, energy. number two, skills. number three, trade. number four, we're going to finally do something politicians have talked about for years, and that is we're going to cut spending, cut the deficit and finally get us on track to a balanced budget. and one more, and one more, we're going to champion small business. we're going to help small business. we want low taxes for small business and regulators that encourage small business. and by the way, there's a big cloud hanging over small business today. you go ask them what they're

worried about, and one of the things they'll tell you is they're worried about the cost of health care because of obama care. we're going to get rid of obama care and replace it with something that works for the american people. the other day -- the other day here in virginia the president said something i just couldn't believe. i couldn't -- i couldn't imagine he actually said it, you know? and i looked it up. he said if you have a business, you didn't build that, someone else did that. i guess -- i guess he thinks that government somehow should take responsibility for all the achievements of people in this country. i have a very different view. i believe america was founded on a principle of individuals pursuing happiness as they choose, achieving -- and

reaching for accomplishment and excellence. so, when a young person -- when a young person makes the honor roll, i know it took a school bus to get them to school, but i don't give the bus driver credit for the honor roll. and i -- and i know that if in your work you spend some extra time finding a way to do the things that other people perhaps can't do at that work site and you get a promotion, i know that to get to work you had to have a driver's license, but i don't give the person at the dmv credit. i give the person that achieved that advanced -- the promotion the credit. now, the president -- the president says that we're taking him out of context with that quote. yeah, go back and take a look at the whole speech. if you want to get -- if you

want to get a full dose of what the president believes, you watch that whole speech. he says in there if you're successful and you think it's because you're smart, well, lots of people are smart. and if you think it's because you're working hard, it's because -- well, there are a lot of people working hard. i wonder where he was going with this argument. see, my own view is we welcome and celebrate people who work hard to improve their skills and reach for acheacievementachieve. this is the nature of america. america was founded on a principle our rights did not come from the government. our rights came from the creator. and among those rights -- among those rights were life and liberty and the pursuit of happiness. in this country we're free to pursue happiness as we choose, and people striving and achieving are what make america the powerhouse that it is. this is the nature of america.

the president's changing it into something which is government dominated, government centric. it will not work in america. it will not work anywhere. what works here, what works around the world is free people pursuing their dreams. we want those dreamers here. we can accomplish our dreams. and so -- and so looking at that kind of record that the president has and contrasting it with our vision of optimism, bringing back a dynamic and powerful economy with more jobs and more take-home pay, the president understandably has resorted to a very unusual campaign, and that is in some respects i think he disrespects the office by taking the campaign down to the very lowest point i can recall in my lifetime. we're going to have a very different view. the next vice president of the united states and i are going to

lay out a vision for america of hope and opportunity and progress and achievement and individual accomplishment. we're going to stand for america, and we're going to win. i love this country. i love america. i know you love america. that's what brings you here. this is not about me. it's not about him. this is about america, the country we love. it's in trouble. it needs our help. we're going to take it back and make sure america remains the hope of the earth. thank you so much. ♪ tell me if i don't survive i was born free ♪ >> that's, of course, mitt romney obviously well enthused by his selection today. got a lot of juice in there, unusual for romney to show such brio i think is the right word for this. let's go back to david gregory. i haven't seen this romney before. >> that's it. look, this is rollout saturday

and it's a good one for mitt romney. he's happy with the day. it's a good day for his campaign. look, i've talked to romney advisers in the past few days who said a window is opening here. it is a new-look time, a way to restart this campaign. americans post-olympics getting back into the fall, the end of summer, are really going to start focusing on this choice. so, there is now an important choice. romney has taken his campaign in a new direction as you said, a more ideological direction with a clear contrast and he's got the juice today. and you heard in paul ryan, i mean, i -- you got to think romney's watching ryan thinking, hey, that's pretty good. why don't i try to do that? >> exactly what i thought, david, is that this kid is raising my game. he's not changing it, he's raising it is, and no teleprompters, guys, these guys were both speaking from the stumam. no teleprompter, i was impressed by that. >> and look it, ryan is going to go out there and is going to take the fight to president obama all around the country in some of the same places that joe biden is going to be able to go

to and appeal to working-class voters, catholic voters in the industrial midwest and beyond, and make this case. he's going to raise money. he's going to enthuse -- you know, energize the base. these are the things that you want in a pick, and i think -- >> yes, sir. >> -- it says a lot about romney and the kind of message he wanted to send. >> you know, you know, chuck, i used to say that joe biden put the apostrophe in obama, he made him a regular sort of guy. >> yeah. >> a elite background, joe was the one that brought him down to the street corner level. for the first time romney was talking about a bying onning on, not his, paul ryan's. >> how about the reverse? how about how well i thought paul ryan told mitt romney's story? >> yeah. >> in a way -- >> true. >> -- that we have not heard anybody -- mitt romney or anybody talking about mitt romney's biography, the olympics and all that stuff. i thought that was very effective. i think you got a little bit of

a glimpse of what paul ryan's speech at the convention is going to sound like. >> yes. >> but there's a couple of points, let's not get lost here. number one is the entire premise of the romney campaign for the last -- for six months has been this is a referendum, this isn't going to be a choice election. well, they conceded the argument and said, no, the obama folks are right. it is a choice election. fine. we'll go that direction. we'll do it your way. so, they made a concession and made a pivot and a relaunching in that direction. the second thing is, and i want to just go back to the battleground map, yes, there is ways you look at this and there is help in the industrial midwest, in the agricultural midwest, i think ryan can help take wisconsin which is a lean democratic state and make it a toss-up, but that's the best he can do. maybe he brings it over the finish line. maybe he doesn't. may help a little bit in iowa. but if you look at the battleground, the oldest states, i looked this up today on the census, the states that are older than the national average,

there's seven of them, three of them are in the battleground, florida, pennsylvania, new hampshire. of the states that are the youngest, the seven youngest states, none of them are in the battleground. because i do think ryan could appeal to younger voters who aren't as sensitive to the medicare issue, but when you look at florida, when you look at -- and i was surprised to see new hampshire on that list and you look at pennsylvania, any hopes that republicans had that they thought they were going to make pennsylvania in play i think have completely gone when you look at it demographically. >> yeah, it's an older state. >> and florida is a challenge. florida is a bigger challenge today than it was yesterday. >> okay. great work. great work with you guys. thanks so much, david gregory and chuck todd. maryland congressman chris van hollen is the top person in the budget committee, you put every budget out together, you duke it every day of. what are the pluses and minuses of this guy as a politician who could be next vice president of the united states? >> well, look, chris, i get

along very well with paul ryan personally, as you say. we work on the budget committee together, but i strongly disagree with his vision for the country, and i think this has sharpened a debate in a way that will help the president. because at the end of the day what mitt romney is demonstrating through this choice is that he wants to follow an economic agenda that's good for people like mitt romney. >> yeah. >> at the expense of the rest of the country. and if you look at the ryan/romney plan, that's what it does. and i don't think people want to go back to a souped-up version of trickle-down bush economic policy. we tried that. it didn't work. the economy crashed. millions of people lost their jobs. why in the world would we want to go back to something like that? >> let's talk about the reality in life. you have constituent services, i'm one of your constituents obvious-but i live in the district but, you know, older people when they get past 65, not just young retirees, but older retirees come to depend tremendously on medicare, in some cases medicaid for long-term care. and you go to -- i'm just

wondering what you think will happen if the government all of a sudden says, oh, no, you don't get medicare anymore, you get this voucher thing, you have to buy an insurance policy. a 78-year-old person or couple, how are they going to deal with that when they realize it doesn't cover everything? >> well, they're not going to be able to deal it because that's a violation of the social contract. and let's be very clear, if you pass the ryan/romney plan, some things happen right away, immediately. they reopen the prescription drug doughnut hole, which we closed as part of the affordable care act. they now say that if you want preventive health services, you're going to have to pay more. and that's what happens right now. then when the voucher plan kicks in, you're going to have seniors whose median income is $23,000 having to pick up that burden, the extra costs, while their plan is giving these big tax breaks to the very wealthy. i mean, that is a plan that is going to be unacceptable -- unacceptable to the country. >> here's a tough one for the democrats, i think, i think

everything you said is obviously true and i believe in it. but here's one tricky part, we have the proudest point i think in "the wall street journal"/nbc poll, the question, do you think the country's going in the right direction, wrong direction, and what these two guys are offering today is a different direction. how can you sell if you're obama and biden the same direction we're on right now when only about 30 some% of people think it's the right direction? how do you do that? >> first of all -- first of all, i think the american people are fair. i think they understand that the president inherited an economy that was in total free fall, and i think they also recognize that we've seen dramatic improvement. after all, we've gone from losing 800,000 jobs per month to more than 25 consecutive months of positive private sector job growth. now, are we where we want to be? no. but i don't think the american people want to go back to the set of policies that tanked the economy to begin with. and if you listen to romney and ryan, and if you look at the republican plan, it's just a souped-up version of the bush

trickle-down theory. if you look at their plan, chris, they don't ask one penny more from folks making a million dollars a year to hem reduce our deficit. how do they reduce our deficit? they sock it to everybody else. they sock it to seniors on medicare and medicaid. they cut education. they cut investments in our infrastructure and things needed for -- to help the economy grow and be competitive. >> okay. >> again, ask nothing of the folks like mitt romney but ask everything from the rest of the country. >> you have a unique perspective, you are a leading democrat in the country, you sit next to the guy with a totally different philosophy, what do you say to him when he comes out with his budget and gives the biggest break to the rich people in the country and screws people on medicare and things like that, what did you do when you ask him that he hurts the people with no breaks, what does he say? what's his answer? >> well, chris, i have to say, i've not heard a good answer and

that's what this campaign's going to be about. look, there's a reason why -- romney picked ryan so that he will excite the tea party right-wing base. >> yeah. >> and i think there's no doubt it will energize that base. but for independent, centrist voters, i think this decision says you guys take a hike. we're not interested in compromise. we're not interested in balance. we're interested in it's our way or the highway type of budget plan that we've seen from house republicans in general. so, for those folks who are looking for solutions and a balanced result, i don't think this does it for romney. >> i'd like to see you debate this guy, ryan, it would be great on television. thank you very much, congressman chris van hollen of maryland. >> thank you. up next we'll break down the ryan budget plan, what he thinks about, not how he speaks on the stump, but what he'll do when he gets in office. this is a special live edition of "hardball," we'll find out

the specifics of his campaign right now when we get back. i knew it'd be tough on our retirement savings, especially in this economy. but with three kids, being home more really helped. man: so we went to fidelity. we talked about where we were and what we could do. we changed our plan and did something about our economy. now we know where to go for help if things change again. call or come in today to take control of your personal economy. get free one-on-one help from america's retirement leader.

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i'm proud to stand with a man who understands what it takes to foster job creation in our economy. someone who knows from experience that if you have a small business, you did build that. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was vice presidential candidate paul ryan earlier today. obviously the romney/ryan ticket is going to hit obama hard on the economy, but now the democrats also the big clear target themselves. joining me now to talk about the paul ryan budget plan is "the washington post's" ezra klein and he's also an michigsnbc contributor. it seems to me that paul ryan is one of these kids, he's a pretty young guy, he's 42. he read "the fountainhead" the

ayn rand book, and we realized that not everybody gets breaks and you have to look out it in a wide society with people with breaks and no breaks. he seems to be the 20-year-old that just read ayn rand, a complete objectivist, and there's not a word about helping people it's about not doing anything basically and leaving them alone. >> i'd say ryan is an unusually committed ideological politician. i did not find "the fountainhead" to be a terribly compelling work. to each their own. i do the budget work. >> you pointed out effectively in your column that if you look at romney's plan basically, they are basically going to raise the taxes on middle-class person watching television. it has go up because the total number of loopholes that romney plans to close if you chose just at the top there's not enough loopholes to close to make up for the 20% cut in taxes at the top which is so wonderful for those people. they get such a tremendous break because they're paying 35% now,

take a fifth off of that, they're only paying 28%. that's a huge amount of money going right to the rich. and you scant make up for that by closing loopholes even if you do it at the top. you made that point and in the ryan plan, what does it do? >> the ryan plan, it's important to think -- to realize the ryan plan goes much further on taxes than the romney plan. so, ryan one thing that he would do that romney's not talking about doing is zeroing out the capital gains tax. you take mitt romney -- this is a plan for this ticket. if the ryan plan passed tomorrow, mitt romney would pay effectively a zero percent federal income tax rate. because he pays most of his money in capital gains and it wouldn't exist anymore -- >> you mean no rate at all. >> you're paying no rate at all. >> a coupon clipper, perhaps, you are sitting on a ton of money that you inherited and you got it from your husband or wife or whatever, and you're just sitting on money and collecting money, dividends, interest, et cetera, there would be no tax. >> right. right now we tax the investment income about half the rate that

we tax normal earned income. that would go away under ryan's plan. it want to go away under romney's plan, but ryan's plan. >> which way are they going towards, getting awayam capital gains? >> to be fair, romney opposes that. but it is worth saying, that ryan, the that tax, it costs about $4 trillion to $5 trillion over 10 years that by the way after you pay for extending the bush taxes which nobody explained how you pay for in the first place. now you are dealing with 5 trillion to $9 trillion on tax breaks. ryan doesn't do as much on medicaid. he softened it in the second iteration of his budget and he increases defense spending so really this money is coming out of the hide of the poor. he does enormous cuts to medicaid in the first ten years his budget cuts about $750 billion off medicaid. >> would you tell your grandmother to vote for this guy? >> i don't tell my grand mother

how to vote. she's a strong woman. >> what if he asked for advice? >> i am a journalist, i don't tell people how to vote. >> what would you say which one of the candidates would hurt them in their early 70s? >> they do not touch folks over 55, that much. they've kept current beneficiary promises alone. that means if you're increasing defense spending, you're cutting taxes and you're leaving alone this generation of seniors, the only major expenditure the federal government you can take your money out of to pay for all of that and your deficit reduction is the poor and that's why his medicaid cuts are so dramatic. his food stamp cuts are so dramatic and housing cut subsidies are so dramatic and i don't think the math of the plan would work if he has to specify how to pay for his taxcuts, i don't think it would work. >> the people that he doesn't expect to vote for him, he's going to screw. that's pretty true. is it a game changer for

mitt romney or a game changer? we'll have the author of that book and melissa harris perry, on this special live edition of "hardball." [ uncras]

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welcome back to "hardball." sometimes, as with the pick of sarah palin, the pick can change everything and not for the better. well, joining me right now is "new york" magazine's john heilemann. he's also an msnbc analyst and also wrote "game change," and

melissa harris-perry is host of msnbc's weekend show, "melissa harris-perry." good title. i think the question i want to ask you about is this "game change" question, is it? >> i think it is, in this sense. it's not a hail mary pass to the way that palin was, but to the point that chuck made on the show. there were two different frames for this election. the frame for the romney campaign is, there's a pure referendum on obama, all about his economic stewardship, jobs, growth, wages, all that stuff. that's what they wanted to run on. the obama campaign said, no, this is a choice election. it's going to be about two contrasting sets of values and visions. what the romney campaign is admitting here tacitly is their strategy isn't working. if their strategy was working, they would see rob portman or tim pawlenty. they have tacitly accepted it's a choice election, and they have doubled down, okay, let's do a big contrast here to one view of the world, another view of the world, one view of the world government, another view about

the world government. and it's no longer about the economy. it's about entitlements, taxes, those issues were secondary, now they're front and center. >> it was brand "x" before, and now they're now offering a brand-new brand. >> and the thing about the palin pick was the timing. it was a coming off of the dnc congre convention. now president obama gave an extraordinary speech, and then overnight, they changed the media discourse, right? so it fell apart. but the truth is, had that election been held at the end of september, beginning of october, even with a mccain/palin ticket, they might have won. the problem on timing here is i think this might be sort of a premature veep moment, only in this sense. you are absolutely right, as you were saying earlier, you see romney like, on fire in a way you've never seen before. but this guy is not some newcomer to the political spectrum. this guy has a way of being.

and he is going to go back to that way of being. and i do think there's a little premature veep elation. >> to make some of those points, here's the obama ad. obama for america has already released an ad, hitting team romney/ryan, already. quick turnaround here. let's take a look. >> guy put on a very comprehensive plan rewriting the health care system, medicare, social security, our entire tax system. >> the cuts in here are so dramatic, they are so painful. >> it gives a $4.3 trillion tax cut to the wealthiest in this country. >> so the mitt romney became president of the united states, you're convinced he would follow through with a lot of the reductions that you would make? >> yes. >> i have applauded his excellent work and very much needed. >> one question i raised before, this issue of direction. the american people know the economy needs something really different done to it.

we're not getting anywhere right now. the direction in our polling shows 31%, people think we're in the right direction. how does obama defend the direction we're in right now against the guy who says, i've got a new direction for you? >> i think he points to the specifics in the plan. and to go back to what we were saying about this a minute ago, i'm not prematurely elated about this, i think the obama campaign is elated. i think the arguments are out, when they go out and do polling and focus grouping on what is actually in the ryan budget, it is bad for -- before this guy was on the ticket, their attitude was, we're going to wrap paul ryan around mitt romney anyway. because what they see in swing districts is that on the way that the ryan plan attacks or hurts -- ostensibly hurts the elderly, hurts working class families, hurts the most vulnerable, the working poor, they think that's a gift to them. and they look at this and say, this is mana from heaven from our perspective. the obama people couldn't be happier with this pick. >> but the question both sides have to say. let me ask you about that

elusive 6%, that seem to be undecided. the inattentive voter out there, are they going to hear more they like from the romney team now or more they like from the obama team? >> this is a base shoring up decision. you're right, this choice is about shoring up the base. here's the one thing that they have going. this guy has got a 54% "i've never heard of him" rate, right? and the one thing about that, like i said about president obama running against senator clinton, when you have a large group running against you that don't know you, you can have a campaign. and that's where mitt romney is, have been running for president so long. >> he's got a lot of unknowns out there. >> that's right. but this room is the room for the campaign. i think that's part of the value. my concern here, if you're ryan, right, is that this is a guy who is great in retail politics. great on the ground in wisconsin. people like him. but can he translate to a national audience? >> i can't wait for that debate too.

thank you so much, john heilemann, and thank you, melissa harris-perry. much more to have on this special live edition of "hardball." we'll be right back. you're watching it on msnbc, the place for politics. ♪ these are the days [ male announcer ] 6 years old. then 7. going on 11. in the blink of an eye, they're all grown up.

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