ballot. facing near complete disavowal from every corner of his own party after trying to define how a woman's body reacts to quote, legitimate rape, akin isn't budging from the race saying he's quote not a quitter and in a new tv ad out today asking voters for a pass on this stumble. >> rape is an evil act. i used the wrong words in the wrong way and for that, i apologize. fact is, rape could lead to pregnancy. the truth is, rape has many victims. the mistake i made was in the words i said, not in the heart i hold. i ask for your forgiveness. >> forgiveness? unlikely. the problem is that akin's comments weren't ones made by an isolated gaffe-prone ignorant congressman. the idea of legitimate rape is one that congressman and current vice presidential candidate paul ryan signed on to. he co-sponsored a bill with party black sheep akin last year which initially aimed to permit abortions only quote, if the pregnancy occurred because the

pregnant female was the subject of an act of forcible rape. akin's comments are part of a larger effort by conservatives to de-legitimize victims of rape in hopes of curbing abortions. clayton williams compared rape to bad weather, saying if it's inevitable, just relax and enjoy it. when congressman akin was a state legislator in 1991, he voted to back an anti-marital rape law warning that women pull the rape card quote, in a real messy divorce as a tool and a legal weapon to beat up on the husband. what's more, the baseless and defensive claim that women rarely get pregnant from rape has been consistently touted by republican lawmakers and policy groups for several decades. "the atlantic" reports that james leon holmes, tapped for a federal judgeship by president george w. bush wrote in 1980 concern for rape victims is a red herring, because conceptions from rape occur with approximately the same frequency as snowfall in miami.

in 1988, pennsylvania state representative stephen friend said in a debate, the odds are one in millions and millions and millions. rape obviously is a traumatic experience. when that traumatic experience is undergone a woman secretes a certain secretion which has a tendency to kill sperm. in 1995, henry aldridge said the facts show that people who are raped, who are truly raped, the juices don't flow. the body functions don't work and they don't get pregnant. that came during a debate to cut state abortion funding for poor women. more than anything, akin's latest comments have created a considerable problem for the republican party on whole. the rnc confirms to nbc news that the quote, human life amendment making abortions illegal in all cases, including rape and incest, is a part of the gop platform. it was also a platform position in 2004 and in 2008. that stance runs directly

counter to a statement from the romney/ryan campaign which said sunday that their administration would not oppose abortion in instances of rape. john heilemann, a lot of evidence pointing towards this being a stance, a policy position, if you will, in the republican party, a theory circulated in republican corners for some time now. is the question of todd akin and his career exposing a major issue for the gop? >> that's a big question after a long lead-in. you know, the examples that you gave which are all legitimate examples go back a long way so there's obviously a long genesis of this line of thinking. there's been reporting in the last couple days that there are a surprising number of voters in the world, people in the world, who have views that are similar to congressman akin's, who believe these obviously abberant and wrong unscientific facts.

i think that this clearly, i have been saying for the last two days the fact that the running mate, paul ryan, is a co-sponsor of that bill that talks about forcible rape is obviously a political problem for the romney/ryan ticket, one the obama campaign was planning to try to exploit even before congressman akin said this insane thing two days ago. the republican party has been on this very adamant anti-abortion plank in its platform for several elections. the nominees are often not on that plank and there are often disagreements between the platform planks and what the nominees run on. exactly how much of a political problem this is, republicans have been pretty successful in many presidential elections running on that same platform plank and this chain of thought which has not come to the fore as much, how much of a problem it's going to be, it really depends a lot on how well, on exactly how this debate plays out going forward. the party clearly fears it and that's why they're trying to get rid of congressman akin. >> the fact we are now talking

about the akin/ryan proposal, that the vice presidential nominee is tied directly to this, days before the republican convention, would seem to be an issue. i want to draw everyone's attention to comments made by obama strategist david axelrod to the huffington post, talking precisely about this. david axelrod said when you look at who akin's partner was, what was on all the anti-choice legislation it was paul ryan. when you look at the legislation that would limit a woman's right to choose, even for victims of rape and incest, that is the akin/ryan position and frankly by endorsing personhood amendments, romney has gone there, too. this is the prevailing position of the republican party. glenn thrush, the akin/ryan position. >> you get the image of akin being don quixote and ryan being sancho. this is a very significant issue in the larger sense for republicans. i think it's a little bit of a stretch to sort of say -- to tie paul ryan to akin's comments.

my favorite line on this was from reince priebus who called it biologically stupid. >> well -- >> name of a very good band, i would imagine. clearly, this is -- you remember back during the contraception debate earlier this year that joe biden got in the middle of, chicago sent out, what, one to two million direct mailers to women voters, i think this is going to launch even more. this is again about the base, probably less about independe s independents. >> i don't think this is just about the base. i know there are only three, four, 5% of swing people, all that, but i think if you're one of those republican suburbanite women, you see this and it will set you over, a few of them. to me, yes, as john said, it's not just akin. there is a sector of the right that believes this particular form of magical thinking but to have it now be this vivid

multi-day discussion is a different condition. >> you know, lynn, to me, this is -- this is no longer about the choice issue. this is sort of hocus-pocus, faux science that has been sort of floating around certain republican circles for some time now and to those swing voters, you have to wonder, president obama in the latest polling is 15 points up among women. this does not help in the broader narrative that the gop is not friendly to women and women's health concerns. >> here's what is really going on. >> tell us, lynn. break it down. >> this blunder by akin number one lets the democrats portray in the most simplest term possible that republicans, at least some of them, are extremist when it comes to this position. akin can apologize all he wants, he can stay on the ticket or leave. he won't go away as a factor. and once he made the mistake of merging two lines of thought, one about abortion and one about just a nutty version that you

and i could will away a pregnancy as if it could only be who knew -- >> the female body shuts down. >> all that money on birth control pills? >> let's not get into that discussion. >> but the point is, women react like that. this is a real thing where when you talk about a mars and venus divide, women get that there is just a problem with somebody who even says it that way. >> it's a pluto and earth divide. i don't even think pluto is a planet anymore. >> exactly. >> the national review, a conservative publication, yesterday called for akin to step down saying that for some people who basically are republican, they may not be able to vote for a republican senate candidate whose views are deemed as abhorrent. that's the problem. >> the thing that i have noticed, setting aside all -- many of the dynamics of this, the republican party is going to break a land speed record for party cannibalization. this stuff happened on sunday.

this guy, theoretically his career is over and yet, i think there's some sense and some evidence to prove that this is kind of a theory that is accepted in some corners of the republican party, conservative circles. >> one of the factors here isn't just a gender factor. it's kind of the weirdo, nut job factor which is sort of what the democrats in chicago are trying to portray republicans in general as doing. i think akin feeds into this notion that chicago very much wants to portray nationally that the republicans are irresponsible and not fit to govern. i think in that sense that's probably a little more -- >> so we'll start counting how many times in e-mails and ads will we see the word radical and extreme. >> in fact, there's a new dnc ad out. let's take a gander at that. if we have it. we do not have it. john heilemann, the fact is, there are dnc ads out there that are likely going to be obama ads coming out. what this does, let's talk broadly about the romney strategy. last week we talked about

medicare. this week, we're now talking about forcible legitimate rape. what we're not talking about is the economy. >> that's true. that's definitely true and every day we said a million times on tv, every day you're not talking about the failed management of the economy by barack obama is a day that romney's campaign has lost. if you break it down even further, you think about the four big groups that are the pillars of the president's support. young voters, african-american, hispanic voters and white women largely educated white women voters. those first three, young voters, black voters, hispanic voters, those numbers are baked in. there's nothing romney can do about those numbers. they are where they are. you can't move them. the only one where there was perceived to be previously some way for romney to gain a little ground, to take away a little bit of the president's advantage was almost women voters. in fact, at the end of the republican primary fight, you saw a big gap and then it started to narrow in april, may and june. it was still big but not as big as a couple months before.

how romney coming out of this is able to continue to narrow that gap in a way that he needs to, get that gender gap to a manageable level that he can win, it's very, very hard. it's another big huge boulder for him to try to push up the hill and if all you're left with is white men and senior citizens, and you're losing some of the senior citizens on the medicare issue, man, it's just hard to figure out how you get to 50.1% in that environment. >> i think it's called sissyphean, that task. >> you're more familiar with greek mythology. >> after the break, the akin controversy doesn't do the republicans any favors in their bid to control the senate. >> do you think for the benefit of the party, he should drop out? >> the thing he should coider is what's in the best interest of the things he believes most deeply, what will help the country at this critical time. >> even without akin on the ballot anywhere, paul ryan might have an even larger impact on the gop fight to control

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a week ago, republicans were worried that paul ryan could cost them congressional seats. now they're getting nervous that todd akin could dash their dreams of reclaiming the senate. the gop needs just a net gain of four seats to seize the majority in the upper house. according to the cook political report, ten seats are considered toss-ups, including the one akin is running for in missouri and senator scott brown's seat in massachusetts.

that may be one reason why brown quickly said quote, i believe representative akin's statement was so far out of bounds that he should resign the nomination for u.s. senate in missouri. this morning on msnbc, rnc chair reince priebus said akin needs to step aside. >> everyone's on the same page and i think you've seen complete unity in the fact that he ought to get out of the race. we think we've got a better chance with someone else, obviously. >> joining us now from washington, making his debut now appearance, a moment much of the western world has been waiting for, writer of "the fix" column in the "washington post," msnbc contributor, chris cillizza. >> can you say ratings spike? >> ratings gold. ratings gold. this is a day we have been waiting for. >> thank you for having me. >> we did a long ideological analysis of todd akin and his positions and the implications for the gop but the real reason

at the heart of all this back and forth between gop party elders and the akin campaign, the real reason for this outcry is because the gop wants a chance at the senate, is it not? >> yeah. look, when todd akin won the primary earlier this month, republicans were not sort of overjoyed at that prospect. john bruener and sarah steelman were the other two candidates. both of them probably matched up better with claire mccaskill but the argument was claire mccaskill is a freshman senator running in a state that barack obama is going to lose. she's been an ardent, high profile defender of barack obama, and she had a personal private plane that she acknowledged she had not paid taxes on for some time. so you think add those things up, all todd akin had to do honestly is just don't appear in public between the day he won the primary and november 6 and he likely would have won the race. now, of course, you know, todd akin may not have come to this yet, but viewed purely from a political perspective, he just can't win. i know a lot of people are pointing to a poll that came out last night that showed the race

virtually tied and it may well be today, but you have to realize most people do not follow this stuff as closely as we do, number one. so it takes more time to sink in with the electorate and number two, reince priebus, john cornyn, mitch mcconnell, scott brown, every other republican in the country has basically said this guy is unfit and needs to step down. i can guarantee you that if todd akin remains the nominee, claire mccaskill will use those quotes against todd akin in ads, not to mention the whole legitimate rape thing which is going to kill him among women in general. it's just not -- >> todd akin creates problems both in the missouri senate race and also for the national race insofar as david axelrod is now talking about the akin/ryan axis. there was analysis that claire mccaskill did her best or made her best effort to get todd akin to be her opponent in the race precisely because he was sort of the most outrageous and furthest right. >> both claire mccaskill and the democratic senatorial campaign

committee, the arm of the party that's aimed at electing democratic senators, spent lots of money, i think a total of $1.7 million on ads that basically said todd akin is very, very conservative, which in a republican primary, is a great thing because they try to pick their nominee. we have seen this happen before, i don't think we have ever seen it be so successful. i would argue, though, i know this is too political for some people, but in a way, claire mccaskill has succeeded too much in that if republicans are able to push todd akin off the ballot, almost anybody that they replace him with is going to have a better chance of beating claire mccaskill than todd akin currently has. in a way, i said to some of my friends, you guys would probably be better off saying absolutely nothing for awhile because you want todd akin as the nominee if you're claire mccaskill because again, like i said before, this is just not someone who is going to win a senate race. it's just not going to happen. >> when you're looking at the battle, you definitely want your opponent to be riding a bloodied

horse with arrows sticking out of its side. >> he's not even on a horse anymore, though. >> or just walking with a broken spear, as the case may be. john, we know that kelly ayotte and john mccain just added their names to the list of republicans who think todd akin should go the way of the dinosaur. this strategy, though, when we're talking about sort of getting the opponent you want on tap is something that harry reid masterfully employed in nevada with sharron angle and we see how these loony-tune senate candidates don't fare well in general elections. >> sometimes the incumbent is able to do things to get the opponent they want. sometimes the republican party or democratic party, as the case may be, helps them on its own. it's now become kind of the rule in republican primary politics that the most conservative candidate wins. that's partly the influence of the tea party, partly the influence of the way the party in general has moved to the right. the most conservative candidate if they're well funded, as long as they're not broke, they win. the republican party has handed a lot of gifts over the last two

cycles to the democratic party. i'll say one thing in addition on the missouri race. of all the people calling for akin to step down, the one who is not calling for him to step down but is effectively calling for him to step down, most important of all is karl rove, who until yesterday took the $847,000 ad by crossroads, that spent $5 million already in missouri, took the $847,000 ad buy he was going to make this week and canceled it, and there's no way that congressman akin can win a race, he's got all those arrows sticking in his side, can't win the race without money and a lot of money he was relying on was outside money coming into the state. >> the vote is the conservative republican voters of missouri went for akin in the first place. what will happen when they pull this guy out of the puzzle and come up with one of the other two. how enthusiastic is the base going to be? you know, the thing about claire mccaskill, for all of her problems, she is a take no prisoners campaigner. she knows how to leverage these things.

she's going to get a lot of money. the race is going to get some attention. and what is going to happen to the base of this party when they don't get their guy. >> what's in it -- >> the thing that we should point out here, the one person in america who has been the most charitable towards akin, the one most sympathetic, the one to say he can decide in his own good time to stay in the race has been claire mccaskill because of course she wants him to stay in the race. she knows that if he is replaced and forced off, the replacement may be a stronger competitor than he is. >> don't you think she just wants to respect the will of the republican right? >> we still have mr. fix in washington. kurt raises a good point, which is what is in it for todd akin in terms of getting out? >> kurt is right. even more so because todd akin

is not ever been an establishment kind of guy, alex. it's not as though he thinks if i do this, the establishment, if i stay in the race, the establishment -- and i lose, the establishment won't take care of me down the line. this is a guy who the establishment recruited any number of people to run against him in hopes he wasn't the nominee. they recruited john bruener, a wealthy businessman, because they figured akin is not a good nominee for us. they pivoted once he won and said claire mccaskill is so damaged it doesn't matter but you're exactly right. it's why, you say how can the guy not get out, everyone is calling for him to get out. because there is a group of people around him who are saying let's run this apology ad, let's do a poll or two and let's see what happens. there's no reason for us to get out now. even though it seems patently obvious to all of us this guy can't win, he owes nothing to these people. these people have not funded him, though john is right, in addition to american crossroads, the national republican senatorial committee has pulled out all of the ad money they had reserved. todd akin is not a good

fund-raiser. missouri is not a cheap state because st. louis and kansas city are expensive media markets. he would be being outspent 10, 11 or 12 to one by claire mccaskill if he stays in the race because he's not a guy that you're going to write a check to. he wasn't before and there's no way you're writing a check to him at this point. >> claire mccaskill might. >> you know, chris, with the republican party proving you can sit on the issue, forcible rape and legitimate rape and you can continue to bandy that about in certain corners and really not see any fallout from that as they have been doing for decades. maybe he can hold on to this. >> one thing i would say, i had a lot of republicans, when todd akin won, i said look, this makes this race more competitive. i still think mccaskill is going to win. they said you're making the mistake saying that todd akin is equivalent to sharron angle, someone who is not at all ready. this is somebody who has been in, you know, spent time in the u.s. house, he was in the missouri state legislature before. are his views more conservative,

maybe, but this is a guy who knows his way around. i will tell you those same people are not espousing those views now because they have seen that this guy has exposed himself as someone who is just, he carries views that are outside the mainstream, even the conservative mainstream, i would argue, of the republican party and can't win. so he may not be as high profile as sharron angle was, but my guess would be sharron angle will stay in her race a lot longer than todd akin stays in his race because i don't see him making it to the finish line on november 6. >> chris cillizza, our time together was short but wonderful. i hope we can entice you back. >> thank you for having me. >> a little bit country, a little bit rock. take it on the road. coming up, will a romney presidency help republicans finally get the budget they want? americans for tax reform president grover norquist describes to "new york" magazine what the gop is looking for. quote, we don't need a president to tell us in what direction to go. we know what direction to go. we want the ryan budget to pick a republican with enough working digits to handle a pen to become

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for an erection lasting more than four hours. stop taking viagra and call your doctor right away if you experience a sudden decrease or loss in vision or hearing. this is the age of taking action. viagra. talk to your doctor. coming up, tax day comes on the 15th of october. team romney's senior advisor ed gillespie kicked off the countdown earlier this week. >> there's a lot of forms that have to come in from other entities that the governor doesn't have control over. october 15 is the deadline for the irs on an extension. we have said as soon as they're ready we're going to release them and i believe they'll be ready before that. >> we will discuss governor romney's october fest and its effect on the tax policy debate ahead.

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republicans looking to slash spending and taxes got their dream in governor romney's pick of congressman paul ryan. in an interview last week, tax pledge master grover norquist said ryan could be romney's version of dick cheney and take the reins in reshaping domestic policy. >> i think that he would certainly have a large footprint. i was actually a public advocate of not having ryan be the vice presidential nominee, not because i don't think ryan's key or important but because i think he's so key. >> you were so pleased with the pick. >> i wanted him to stay in the house and run the romney/ryan plan through the house and the senate because i thought that was so important. >> romney has said he has his own budget plan. will ryan's blueprint see sizeable modifications if romney wins the white house? joining us is americans for tax reform president and arguably one of the most influential

people in washington, grover norquist. 238 representatives and 41 senators have signed his pledge never to raise taxes. grover, always good to have you on the program. >> good to be with you. >> i guess grover, you made that sort of i'll call it notorious comment to "new york" magazine saying we need a president with ten functioning digit tos to si the ryan budget plan into law. does mitt romney have those ten digits? i ask you not in a literal sense, but he has his own budget plan. how confident are you it's going to be close to the paul ryan budget plan? >> the reason i said that, i was contrasting this presidential campaign and the republican primary with nixon/rockefeller, ford/reagan, reagan/bush, where picking a republican president meant a very different direction for the republican party. this time around, you had ten people running, romney was one of them, who were all running as

reagan republicans and we had a republican agenda from the house and the senate which is embodied in the ryan budget reforms, just as when reagan ran in '80, what was he running on? kemp/roth, on the republican congressionally supported across the board tax cuts. now, when reagan got in, kemp/roth became the reagan tax cut. it was largely kemp/roth with some additions, faster depreciation schedules and president romney will sign a bill that is somewhere between what romney's campaigned on and the ryan plan, and the ryan/romney tax reform plan. so yeah, he'll sign a bill that will be somewhere between what ryan had put together and what he's talked about in the campaign. >> then why is there this sort of maybe it's political kabuki theater, this sort of veiled references to the ryan budget

plan thus far. in the last appearance that we saw paul ryan, i will play the sound, he was on fox last week being asked about specifics and sort of stumbled. let's hear that sound. >> only president obama raids $716 billion from the medicare program. he cut $716 from the medicare program to pay for obama care. we don't do that. >> you say how much? >> the point -- i joined the romney ticket and what mitt romney is proposing to do is repeal all of obama care. >> thus far, paul ryan has been very forthright in his plans and this was one of the first times we had seen him sort of stepping on his own words and trying to not get specific. >> well, the ryan plan, unlike when obama ran for president, we talked about hope and change. he didn't write down an obama health care proposal that the american people could read and look at, nor did he have a stimulus package written out, nor did we have a banking reform

bill written out or even outlined or talked about. so hope and change turning into a 3,000 word, 20 tax increase obama care is rather dramatic. what the ryan plan has put forward has been passd in the house, got the votes of most republicans in the senate, outlines taking what clinton did on welfare reform to all means-tested welfare programs, medicaid, food stamps and so on, as well as reforming medicare, protecting anybody over 55 so nothing changes if you're over 55. if you're under 55, reforming medicare so it's still there. ryan's point was the only thing we know about obama's interest in medicare is that he takes $700 billion and hands it to obama care. >> glenn thrush from politico has a question for you. >> sure. >> you know, these guys when they introduced paul ryan, they did it in front of a navy vessel near a military base. you've got george allen in virginia running all these ads

against the sequester and the defense cuts. you have come out more or less in favor of cutting the defense budget to deal with the deficit. how do you think ryan and romney are on defense and do you think they've got to be more realistic? >> i would interject there, what do you make of the fact that mitt romney sets a floor of 4% gdp for defense spending? >> i think what romney's trying to say is i'm going to be tough on defense. i would not take the approach that any particular government program deserves a certain percentage of gdp. i think you take a look at america's enemies and whether we can more effectively spend money. the case i tried to make is we -- conservatives need to look at the defense budget the way we look at every other part of the government. it can be done more effectively and efficiently. to say you can't save money in any part of the government is foolish and not true. advocates of a strong military and i would argue that all my life, i was a cold warrior

before i was a free market economist. we should have a strong defense. the can nadians need to be keptn eye on. but we ought never say we should spend x number of dollars. >> so do you think that mitt romney's prescription to increase defense spending and set it at 4% of gdp is foolish? >> well, it's not what i would organize. i think when we move forward, he needs to be careful to make sure that america's defense needs are adequately and fully funded, but that doesn't mean you waste a dollar. wasting a dollar on defense is not an improvement over wasting a dollar in welfare. the taxpayers, the american people are out a dollar. >> that might have been a yes. we have to let it go there. thank you, grover norquist, as always, for shedding light on tax concerns and tax issues within the republican party and beyond. after the break, the right said fed. candidates romney and ryan take inspiration from ron paul and rick perry voicing their mistrust of the federal reserve. but shouldn't an internal audit

proceed that audit? that's next. they have names like idle time books and smash records

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and we, the locals, found delight again. that's the power of all of us. that's the power of all of us. that's the membership effect of american express. following in the legendary footsteps of rick perry and channeling his iner ron paul, mitt romney declared yesterday he wants to audit the federal reserve, a distinctly nonpartisan government entity, but democrats and even prominent conservatives are still waiting for him to audit himself. the romney campaign said this weekend it will release the governor's second and final year of tax returns for 2011 before october 15th, which they say will provide ample information about his finances, but the information provided in romney's 2010 taxes has already made weekly standard editor bill kristol uneasy. >> i personally if i was designing the tax code, would have a tax code in which mitt

romney paid more than 13%, i would say given what i know about the kind of investments he made money from. i'm just not a believer that he needed, you know, there would have been any economic detriment to him paying more and i think it just seems kind of weird that he pays a lower rate than an awful lot of middle class people. >> seems kind of weird. kristol's point turns this into a policy issue, arguing that what romney paid in taxes is relevant in the discussion of how to reform the tax code. president obama hit the very same note yesterday in the white house briefing room. >> particularly when we're going to be having a huge debate about how we reform our tax code and how we pay for the government that we need, i think people want to know that, you know, everybody's been playing by the same rules, including people who are seeking the highest office in the land. i mean, this isn't sort of overly personal here, guys. this is pretty standard stuff.

i don't think we're being mean by asking you to do what every other presidential candidate's done, right? >> kurt, i think the president really summed it up quite neatly there. we're not trying to be mean. this is about a fundamental policy issue. >> he's got bill kristol on his left almost. bill kristol. that's the thing, his tone was exactly right, it seems to me. of course, it's entirely politically motivated but this idea of yeah, 13% for a guy who is making $10 million, $20 million, $30 million, $40 million a year, is that fair? that seems to be the way to posit it. when you're running for president, all kinds of personal situations and your track record as a professional are part of the discussion so why not how much federal income tax. >> especially if we're looking for tax reform. the center for american progress

had a breakdown of the tax rate that average households make. households making between $30,000 and $45,000 pay 12.5% rate. households making between $45,000 and $92,000 pay a 15.7% rate. look in the middle, governor romney, who made $21.6 million in 2010, right in the middle. 13.9%. >> you don't need multi-year returns to know that to most people, who have to get a salary to earn a living, that something is not fair. there's no equity in the tax system where a multimillionaire pays a lesser rate because they get income from dividends and investment income that's taxed at a lower rate. now, having said that, you don't need multiple years to make the point. this is why obama wants that buffett rule so very rich people just pay more because the system is not equal. it's obvious. but there is another good government reason for wanting the returns and that is just to see really what they say and not

only the strategies, but to learn more about the investments. i think the tax rate argument in a sense has been made and politically, the political thing for the democrats to enforce it, but the more lasting argument about returns is even if he paid 30% rate, that should not negate that people who want to be president should disclose their tax returns. >> the question is, john, is an october 15th, throwing out i guess a bone to the media saying all right, here -- >> that's the legal deadline. that's when he has to have filed the taxes. >> fair enough. in the next month, does this sort of then deal with the tax return -- does it neutralize the tax return question for mitt romney? >> no. i don't think so. we will see what's in the taxes when they come out. i think the tax return issue has been problematic for him and will continue to be problematic for him. the reasons are not because of what rate he pays and i think there's a really interesting argument to be made about tax policy, about how you want to

tax capital gains, carried interest, all that stuff. that debate has been raging for a long time through the reagan administration. now the ryan budget actually wants to zero out capital gains tax entirely so that -- >> in fact, romney would pay .82% on his $21.6 million under the ryan plan. .82%. >> let me finish the point. there's a great policy debate to have that really almost has nothing to do with mitt romney's taxes except that his taxes -- we can point to any rich person in america that makes money through capital gains and make that same point. i think the reason it doesn't matter on october 15th or anything else is what's toxic about the romney tax returns is not the rate he pays, or how much money he makes. it's two words. three words. cayman islands, swiss. to most -- >> swiss bank accounts. five words. >> those are the things for most average americans, most average americans think rich people game the tax code. what freaks them out is the notion that there's a guy

running for president who sounds like a bond villain or a drug cartel kingpin who is like that's what most average americans think are people who put money in swiss bank accounts or park money in the cayman islands. that's weird. >> october 15th thing is nuts. doesn't matter what the deadline is. i just think they have been totally suicidal in the way they handled this. we will find out on october 15th that he paid a 99.9% mergeable rate for 2011 but that's just going to leave open the question of the other, what, eight years or ten years they're looking for. there's just no way around it. he's just procrastinating. the whole thing, he could have ripped this band-aid off in 2009 and chose not to and it just keeps going on. >> this goes back to the strategy here. we are not talking about the economy. we are talking about forcible rape, we are talking about medicare and talking about -- >> secret income taxes. and secretions. >> i think it's just a point, and this is what the democrats know that perfectly legal tax

avoidance strategies and schemes just don't sit well with everyday people who just have no way to why these options to lessen their taxes -- >> cayman islands, swiss bank accounts. those five words you may see on an obama campaign sweatshirt. coming up, tension within the obama campaign. frustration with vice president biden and president obama's competitive streak. we'll dig into glenn thrush's new ebook next. i've discovered gold. [ female announcer ] new roc® retinol correxion max. the power of roc® retinol is intensified with a serum. it's proven to be 4x better at smoothing lines and deep wrinkles than professional treatments. roc® max for maximum results.

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it's time for "what now," a special focus on glenn thrush's ebook, obama's last stand. i will say to our viewing audience when i first walked into the press room a few moments ago, everyone said see that guy in the hat, be very, very afraid of him. he knows everything that's going on in this administration and that man in that hat was you, glenn thrush. your new ebook explores what is

going on in the administration, the campaign, the dynamics. you suggest that there is some tension there, that perhaps all is not as well as it may seem on the surface. but i would like to talk specifically about a couple things. one is the obama/biden relationship which is an endless source of fascination to me and two is obama's competitive streak. >> well, on the biden stuff, the thing that i found really interesting is how david axelrod and david plouffe and jim messina have essentially micromanaged hiring and firing in biden's world which i hadn't realized. a big revelation for me as a former new york city reporter was biden apparently was quite smitten with kevin shikey, mike bloomberg's right hand man and was told no, no, no, you can't hire him, he won't be loyal, you can't trust him on the inside. i think that was a source of tension between the two. also, obviously biden made -- biden sort of broke the embargo on whenever the administration was going to start talking about gay marriage and apparently

plouffe was especially ticked off at biden. the president tried to smooth the waters but i still think there's a little bit of lingering tension. >> there is no actual intelligence that would point towards anything other than biden as vice president in the second administration. >> oh, no, no, no. you got anything on that? >> no. no. the president's -- it's the craziest thing in the world. the president's ahead in the poll. nobody changes the vice president when they're ahead in the polls looking like they're going to win. there's never been any basis in fact, there is none today and i do want to say no one should say anything bad about kevin on television. we think you're loyal, we think you're amazing. don't listen to glenn or anybody in the white house. >> the president loves games. he loves winning games, he loves a fair game. you know this, lynn. >> the weirdest thing, this is a very minor point, apparently the president and reggie love were standing backstage a couple years ago and there was a square

on the lawn and reggie was throwing the ball into it. the president said best out of ten. >> always a game. sort of like me. and sandwiches. the book is "obama's last stand" available now. thanks to kurt, glenn, lynn and john. that's all for now. see you back here tomorrow. follow us on twitter. "andrea mitchell reports" is next. [ female announcer ] the power of green coffee extract is now in our new starbucks refreshers™ -- a breakthrough in natural energy. made with real fruit, starbucks refreshers™ are delicious low calorie drinks you can feel good about. ♪ rethink how you re-energize. ♪ get a boost of natural energy with a new starbucks refreshers™, in three ways. natural energy from green coffee extract, only from starbucks.

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chor ttuce, odo yulrha cin a. ohorun gh ttuce, odo yulrha cin a. ow lkhu reapppny haghrmar et.fimive right now on "andrea mitchell reports" akin over akin. will he stay or will he go? the missouri senate candidate hunkers down. >> the mistake i made was in the words i said, not in the heart i hold. i ask for your forgiveness. >> stood up. akin is a no-show last night on piers morgan. >> because if you don't keep your