efinitely works for me. helps me get back to doing my thing. [ male announcer ] try the dual action formula of bayer headache relief. thanks for watching this afternoon. do stay with us. chris matthews is next. bodyguard of lies. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in tampa. our channel side location, just outside of the tampa bay times forum. the site of this year's republican national convention. let me start with the assault here in tampa against the president. it is not enough that people resent the economy, i guess. they need to resent barack obama personally. this must explain the slippery

negative case that the romney people are making towards him not just obama himself on his record but the man and he is siphoning off many of the benefits to pay for his health care program. he is letting welfare recipients out of their work requirement and disparaging the work ethic of business people. what kwind had a kind of a person would want to do that to let people sit home and collect checks? what kind of politics would skim health been futures from hard-working seniors to fund the working poor? well, the romney team wants to think that -- barack obama is that kind of guy. and that's the strategy in place here. and it may be penetrating right where this election is being fought right now. among the white working class. joining me right now is eugene robinson, pulitzer prize winner for the washington price. author of "game change." both, of course, gentlemen, essential thinkers for nbc. gene, let's talk about fairness.

no accusations of racism. you never know what's in another man's heart. in terms of the accusations made against the president, it is not enough it seems the republican side to say we have a weak economy. we have to say we have a weak will, bad-willed president here. he wants to get welfare benefits to people that don't want to work. he wants to skim medicare from hard-working people that spent their whole lives paying into it by siphon off from the poor working poor. who is he talking to? >> who is this appeal talking to? it is speaking to white working class voters and their resentments and barack obama doesn't like you. he is not your kind of person. he doesn't like people like you. he doesn't respect you, he doesn't know what you -- >> not only he wants to hurt you but insult you. >> yeah. and -- it is all part of the barack obama as other sort of blanket campaign that -- waged

by the republican party for some time now with -- may be gaining traction now. i wonder why now as opposed to closer to the election. >> well let me ask you about that. what about -- is this constant bar achblg assault saying the guy is playing an old game of demagoguery politics, take the money from the workers and give to it the poor people to buy votes? that's what they are charging him with. big city machine of 50 years ago. >> sure. look. >> you keep saying chicago, by the way. noticed? keep saying chicago. that sends that message, this guy is helping the poor people in the bad neighborhoods, screwing us. >> lot of black people in chicago. >> ethnic people. >> it is a -- two big facts. one pact is we lived in an age of austerity. there are scarce resources being distributed. in historically speaking, when you are in an era of austerity, there is a competition for those resources. and it opens up the ability to pit ethnic groups against each

other and pit classes against each other. so -- that's happened historically all through time and happening now is not surprising. why is it happen thing week? the convention but more importantly, it is the same reason why paul ryan is on the ticket. for a year and half mitt romney ran because he -- in a way that made it clear they thought they could win a pure referendum on barack obama's economic management. by mid summer clear they could not win that race and had h to do various things to change. so they embrace guy like paul ryan and shifts the conversation away from the economy ask to the role of government and in society more broadly. >> economy will get stronger, are they afraid it may get strong mother the next three months? >> i think it is going to be weak but that there is not going to be a precipitous fall off cliff and already baked the cake for people. >> exactly. economy is now basically what it is going to be on election day. that's not bad enough for the republicans to be able to run on the poor -- >> i think that some of this is working. i call them slippery arguments because you can always make

something out of nothing or about something very small. first argument obama team is anti-small business. based on his you didn't build that line. republicans have deliberately represented that and repeated it over and over again and again last night's convention was the heart of the night, theme of the might. second, it claims president obama wants to waive work work requirements. today with chris jansing, sam bro brownback. >> do you agree the claims that the work requirement has abolished are false? >> i -- as far as i have seen but i don't know all of the bases bas bases to it. >> okay, as far as i have seen it. vip seen all the bases to it. he is the governor the his state. third slippery argument robbed medicare of $700 billion to pay for obama care. the president doesn't cut money from medicare's budget. he cuts the rise in future costs

and more to the point that cuts are not beneficiaries, older people, retired people, mostly payments through insurance companies, and hospitals. when i first got into politics working on capitol hill back in '71, my good senator frank moss, last liberal from utah said to me, during the eagleton matter. give this guy a break. he said you know what, chris, here is how politics works. you take the littlest thing in the world and make it into the biggest thing in the world. it seems like with the republicans have done -- let's take about comment he said up didn't build the highways, you need to build your business. you weren't your own school teacher, somebody else was your school teacher. if you mastered business, somebody helped you learn it. maybe the president forgot to throw in but i admire the spirit of the person that starts the business because he didn't put that in, then jumped and said he doesn't respect that. >> yeah. of course. they -- blow it up into this big thing. but what i thought fascinating is why didn't they do that last

night during the 10:00 hour? the hour when the broadcast networks were focused on the convention. chris christie didn't really pick up and run with it. too busy running with the chris christie for 2016. >> that's so true. i thought it was relatively positive night except important the barroom comment by boehner which was in such bad taste. i will throw the president of the united states out of the bar like he is a bum. i mean, that is so -- he is not a bad guy. that was bad taste. you guess the question is why didn't they stick the knife in last might when everybody was watching? >> they did -- look, the -- the line that -- misappropriated line you didn't build that was the theme of the night. you heard it throughout the entire night. one of the few pieces over the course of the night -- >> didn't show the president, let's take a look. as he said, the republicans build an entire night's theme about a single line president obama inartfully delivered. fire say republicans took out of context. let's listen to what he said.

>> the president said if you have a business, you didn't build that. >> you can't fix the economy because he doesn't know how it was built. >> we need a president who will say to small businesswoman, congratulations, you did build that in america. >> we build claiplanes, cars. >> government there to hold your head. >> mitt romney was not handed success. he built. >> it guy walked into bar and heard that story and he said well, if you have a business, you didn't build that. well, you know what we would do with him, don't you? we would throw him out. >> you throw a guy out because you disagree with his politics? what bar do you go to? here's what president obama said. here it is. let's listen. >> if you were successful somebody along the line gave you some help. there was a great teach smer

where in your life. somebody helped to create this unbelievable american system that we have that allowed you to live. somebody invested in roads and bridges. if you have a business, that -- you didn't build that. somebody else made that happen. the internet didn't get invented on its own. government research created the internet so then all the companies could make money off of the internet. the point is that -- when we succeed, we succeed because individual initiative but also because we do things together. >> we succeed because of our individual initiative and also because we do things together. he didn't miss the beat. he didn't blow it up loud enough, i suppose. >> exactly. he did say it. it is right there. >> by the way, gene, i'm sure as a journalist you have a teacher had you in south carolina that got you into writing. >> absolutely. >> and you had one, too. i had one. >> we all have many.

>> teachers that got you into thinking you are worth being taught. >> exactly. we have all had that. interesting thematic, disagreement really, between -- community and individualism. clearly, both -- you need both important the american system. you need an individual but also need community and -- >> they are humanitarian in their thinking, lead society. all helped on other people climb the mountain with them. >> absolutely. they get it. >> it is absurd dichotomy. this notion there is a false -- last night chris christie made this and mentioned the gi bill. funny -- explain the gi bill. >> the thing that went servicemen came back from world war ii, the government helped them go to cole. there is a generation of people -- >> got people in your family. my dad. >> people went to college. yeah. millions and millions of them. the point is you -- you can't

have individual initiative without a -- if issue can thrive. it is for to it have any effect it has to have the other. >> try to have a free market without contract law. >> as mitt romney said, you know, of course we have to have free market but markets have to be regulated and overseen. romney has said that. multiple times. >> signatures have to mean something. let me ask you about this. this is a political show. about good and bad, about will it work. constantly pummeling this guy as somehow being against the interest of hard working business people. against, let's face it, older, white recipients of medicare. and people who think welfare can be cheated on, resent it. is that working with the audience we are working on, noncollege white folk? blacks are just going to be with obama, let's be honest. >> look, the -- mitt romney has number he has to get to. basically has to win 60% of the

white voter. and if he gets to 6 1% there is a good chance he wins the election. if president obama winds up at 41% -- got 43% of the white vote last time. >> 70% of the white -- does get 70% in the deep south, doesn't he? >> 70% of what? >> white vote. >> who are we talking about? romney? nationally. it is and -- an issue that worked in the past to republicans and it may yet work in this election. there are signs it looks like it is working. what the president and his people do to respond to those ads, medicare ad, the welfare ad, what they do with that argument over if next two months could make the difference in the election. >> time singapore. i do think that this republican campaign has gotten some traction. seeing movement in the polls. but the fact that it is happening now and the fact that it is being -- you know, newspapers now are running head lines saying, you know, santorum repeats inaccurate attack on obama. i mean, it --

>> route 40s and route 1s. chopped steaks, cocktails. a light in the window, trucks are out front. in there at 11:00 on a friday night i want know what people are talking about. are they repeating the republican lines? >> exactly. if this were closer to election i would see it. there is a lot of time still left to correct the record. >> okay. i think -- you know, i think president obama is one of the most regular. he has done -- i said it today. he's done everything anybody has ever asked african-americans to do in this country, perfect family, perfect record, clean as a whistle. all he has done is work for people that need help. he has never grabbed the money. he as -- you are laughing. >> i'm the one that wrote he -- he had to be the least in

america. >> you can say he built that. >> well said. gene robinson coming up from the republican national convention, whose party is this? chris christie and most of last night's speakers barely mentioned the name mitt romney. is he really their leader or just the guy they have to run or really looking for it themselves to 2016? could they be thinking of th themselv themselves? chr christine o'donnell is here to take her take. plus, paul ryan is set for a big night when he speaks in tampa. don't expect him to talk about his record in congress because he was somewhat of a party politician who voted for all the spending and tax cuts. he wasn't a fiscal hawk. all night tonight, continuing life coverage of the republican convention including ryan's big speech tonight.

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ladies and gentlemen, we have to lead here in march and get to everybody to make sure that mitt romney and paul ryan are president and vice president of the united states. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was ohio governor casic last might in tampa concluding a real bar burninger at his speech. one thing is clear this governor is proud of his record in his home state and isn't afraid to talk about it. perhaps he can lend advice to mitt romney. we will see. here with me now, window into the minds of rustbelt voters, ohio governor, i'm so proud of you, john kasich, to have known you all these years and seen you rise to this position. i said despite some discord answer among of my colleagues you gave a barn burner last

night. i thought it was meat and potatoes, as we say in massachusetts. it was real bass your record. why can you nominate a guy for president as you are going to do this week who can't do the same thing about his record as governor? >> well, chris, first of all, let me just take people back for a second and let them know that i first met you in 1983 when you were with tip o'neill and had a great relationship and built into a friendship. i am always glad to come on the show with you. in terms of romney, look, i -- chris, let me tell you, he is a guy who is always pretty level. he looks at the glass as half full. beneath that when i'm with him and he tells me things and what he is passionate about, i hear it. he has this deep passion. but at the surface when you look at him, he is a pretty pleasant guy all the time. i think that's not something to be misunderstood. but i understand why people say they don't know him. >> that's what they say about charlie manuel.

manager of the phillies. very even tempered. john glenn from your state is very much like that. my question goes back to this. he was governor of massachusetts and he was pro-choice and he had a big health care plan. by moderate or liberal standards he was a hell of a good governor. yet, when he gets here, he gets to republican places that campaign for president, silence, nothing about his record. >> you know, chris, when i look at his record in massachusetts, with two democratic houses, i think, you know, they went from billions in the hole to billions in the black. you know $2 billion, $3 billion surplus and went from thes will of thousands of jobs to the gain of about 40,000 jobs. you know, i have been saying all along, i will do it with you, you know the only thing that matters in the election is the wallet. if this wallet is fatter, you remember jim rhodes if the wall set fat. if the wall set skinny you lose. that's what we have to be talking about here. that's what matters to people. >> let's talk about the welfare

charge in all of the romney ads now. is it true that the president has dropped the work requirement? >> chris, i haven't studied tonight detail but my understand sing they have. they erode ed it away. back in the days of the old welfare reform we didn't want to weaken the work requirement. welfare reform billy think you have to agree worked pretty darned well because a lot of people said that it -- ended generational dependency in many, many cases. the idea that you want to change that law now without talking to the republicans that put it together i think is a mistake. >> here's talking to one republican, my colleague, kansas governor brownback, conservative republican. and she asked him a very direct question like i asked you. has the work requirement for welfare been abolished? let's hear what he said to her this morning. >> but you agree that these claims that the work require many has been abolished or

false? >> as far as i have seen but i don't know all of the bases to it. >> can you give that same answer from what you have seen? they haven't removed welfare requirement -- work requirement yet? they haven't done it yet? you say eroded. kwlin that means. is it gone or is it still in place? can you get well pair without working? >> i don't know the answer to that, chris. ing in fact, i was asked to sign a letter as i was going out the door to head down to this con sxrengs before i had a chance to study the whole issue, i said, look, i'm going the pass on this letter until i understand the whole issue. you know, look, i will tell you is this. that the campaign is really, in my opinion, about getting people to work. giving people a chance. that's what it should be about. in terms of that i have to tell you i haven't studied the details of it and i'm not going to make a statement until i do. >> let's take a look at your state. i always loved ohio's politics. going back to the last northern conservative, democratic party.

i found your politics fascinating. you -- it said that you have to be -- for the republican candidate in ohio for the republican candidate for president to win. is that your understanding historically? your state must go for romney for romney to be president romney? >> i guess people put together some other kind of mathematic, chris, that shows him getting there. clearly without ohio, it makes it a lot more difficult. >> let me ask you about do you believe the number is 50-44 in the quinnipiac? do you believe that's accurate? six-point spread for obama, right now in late august, do you think that's accurate? >> columbus dispatch did a poll and their polls have been pretty good which shows the race basically dead even. chris, let me give you a couple analysis. 5,000 people, great enthusiasm for romney. pal owe, ohio, suburb of columbus, 5,000 people, great excitement. getting bigger crowds than obama is right now. and, you know, i get a sense

that there's real momentum. i think at the end of the day it is going to be tight as a tick and will get down to whoever can convince the people that they have the answer to really spur on the economy. obama will say four more years and romney will say i have the experience and record to say give me a shot. whoever wins that debate will be president. >> can you give -- i will give you bad news right now. jack kennedy got the biggest crowds of the campaign in ohio and lost ohio. could never figure it out. you know the history like i do. >> i know. jack kennedy -- no, no. jack kennedy said he got the loudest cheers in columbus and fewest votes. i understand that. look, hey, chris, ohio has come out of, you know, a real -- almost near death experience. and we are now tarting to get our momentum back because we diversified our economy. biggest growth in the last couple of months has been like health care and business services, interesting. not just manufacturing. now the real key is who can

convince people in our great state that they are going to help us to do even better. that's really going to be the question. >> okay. one last quickie. yes or no. was romney right when he said the auto industry should go to the bankruptcy route rather than the way the president went? >> well, my view on that, chris, is i'm glad it survived. auto industry survived and i'm thrilled we have a more solid base in auto and, you know, i'm going to have to leave it right there. >> that's why you are a great politician, sir. you are becoming better all the time. >> oh, i don't know. i don't know about that. thank you, chris. >> i loved your speech last night. >> thanks, chris. >> you got the romney at the end. i thought you were great. anyway, we will bring you an update. >> hey, chris, one thing. listen to this one. no teleprompter and no script. they let me do what i wanted to do. that's amazing at a national convention. >> it really was. you did a great job. john kasich. we will give you an update on the tropical storm hitting new orleans now. this is "hardball," the place for politics.

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welcome back to "hardball." closely watching tropical storm. right now pounding the gulf coast. today on the seventh anniversary of hurricane katrina, isaac was downgraded to a tropical storm. just this afternoon. its destruction is evident. it is not over. we go to reynolds wolf of the weather channel. he is in new orleans. reynolds, give us an update on the danger we are still facing. >> absolutely. you know, chris, biggest danger we are bracing for this at the time is really the issue. not of the wind which has begun to subside but rather the heavy rain we anticipate in and around the new orleans area. some computer models are showing the possibility anywhere from 20 to 30 inches of rainfall. it is not necessarily due to the

intensity but the slow movement of the system as it chugs its way north-northwest. water will begin to pile up in a lot of places and poor drainage, low-lying spots. definitely will stack up. already there have been reports of flooding along i-10 and many in the back roads, lot of side streets, had you flooding. some of the roadways especially the causeway that goes across lake pontchartrain. now it is closed for everyone until the storm passes. will were reports of flooding and flooding rather over top of levees, south of the area. plaquemines parish. there were rescues. so far in and around the city of new orleans the levees have been holding. they have been doing fine. no major flooding here important the time being. that could changes that thing marches its way towards the north-northwest. >> heavy rainfall more than the wind right now. thank you, reynolds wolf. up next, don't miss my interview with former senate candidate

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welcome back to "hardball," tampa. the party leaders are not let -- ready to let it is a convention gets under way now is it becoming less about raem or perhaps not so much about raem and more about the strength of the next

generation gop leaders we saw on the bench last night? with me now is jenny beth martin. christine o'don el, former republican senate candidate from delaware. heading up a festival called appropriately troublemaker fest. thank you very much. it is nice to meet you finally. let me -- if these people would quiet down, we could have a conversation here. let me ask you about the establishment republican -- i don't want to tie you down on the issue of todd akin and controversial remarks. but there seems to be a fight in this party. maybe it is a healthy one between the establishment, big shots, who want to win elections at all costs money people, and the grassroots tea party people who may not have any money except a vote. who is the boss? >> well -- >> sorry. >> christine first and then the same question. >> i think what we see here happening at the convention is a perfect marriage of both of them. i think the romney campaign has done a beautiful job of

embracing this tea party -- >> where is sarah palin? where is michele bachmann? >> they spoke in 2008. instead we have the new generation of constitutional champions they passed the baton on to. nikki haley, we have scott walker. we have marco rubio, ted cruz. i mean, they are giving these people prime time slots when you think about in 2008 -- >> sarah palin is passe? >> not that at all. it is time for a new round of leaders. these are the people serving in office -- >> have you become a flack for the establishment? you sound like a -- do you want to be, ambassador to the vatican? >> not at all. i generally like mitt romney. i think she a good guy and the right man for the job. what i want to remind people of is in 2008, nikki haley was either just running for the state legislature or state -- >> no, i'm impressed with what she did last night. i think there have been shutouts. let me ask your thoughts about this. you are a southern woman.

i'm serious. jenny beth, what happened to palin? she was on the ticket four years ago. here tow the convention. now gone. >> yeah. it is what they have done but the thing is our people in the tea party movement, tea party patriots, we don't need any one person out there to energize us. we are energized on our own. >> okay. this crowd since it wants to be participating here, how you would like -- would you like to see sarah palin walk out on that stage tonight? >> no! >> no? what's that about? what's that about? >> i think that they are ready for -- to as if baton. sarah is still speaking. governor palin is still -- still has role. >> when? >> you see her on the tv all the time. she is on fox and gets paid to do it. >> she sought there. she is championing the right cause but it is not a single person. i think it gives the movement greater strength.

>> jenny beth, do you think it would be good if palin could come out and speak tonight or tomorrow night n. >> it is not going to happen. one way on the other it doesn't matter. >> let me ask you about ryan tonight. ryan grabbed me when he was first picked i thought romney was at his absolute best that day. i thought ryan was fabulous. he was gung ho and over the top exciting. he was young. he had a true belief in what he was saying. romney for that momentary hour or so seemed to hair the true belief. it is like he invaded the soul of romney. you know that kind of stuff. anyway -- >> like i said -- so 2010. so 2010. >> and seemed to be great. fabulous together. how does he make -- how does ryan make romney as inspiring a leader as ryan is? >> i think romney is and when you get a glimpse of who governor romney truly is, people will get excited about it. we saw ann romney last night. and watching that speech from the forum, i think i saw a --

marked difference in the energy in that room when she walked out. the emotion and the excitement when she was speaking and as -- >> you know when the excitement ended? when he walked out. >> no, no, no. as a matter of fact -- no. listen. let me tell you something. i loved that moment. chris, let me tell you. i loved that moment. if you watch the replay, he embraced her, kissed her. he said -- you were so fabulous. they probably had a great time when they got home. i mean -- they had -- love between each other. beautiful. >> thanks for the portrait you just gave us. i think she's very attractive and he is lucky to have her. look at this. these are all the ann freaks here. let me ask you about the tea party and the future. is the tea party-going to be some day the dom in an force within the republican party? >> i think we are the dominant

force now, political atmosphere, period. everyone is talking about our values. 80% of the american people agree with us. it is time to return to a fiscally responsible constitutionally limited government. they agree with us. we dominate the political spectrum right now. where we go the politics follow us. >> she is right. the course of the country is head order now is mutually assured economic destruction. and common sense americans, independent voters are recognizing -- >> how do you avoid a collision between right and left or center right and center left or whatever, left and right, if the tea party people say our way or the highway? >> because what's happening -- >> here is what you do. you stick to your principles. >> how do you -- >> we don't endorse parties. >> how do you reduce the size of the budget? >> compromises what has gotten us here. where we are -- >> how do we reduce it without passing bills getting signed by the president? >> here is the way to do it. one penny out of every single

dollar the government spends this year, next year, for five years, and it will be at a about a answered budget. one penny. >> how do you get the democrats to do that? >> how do you? what democrat wouldn't want to do that? it is a common sense sol zblugs if they won't what do you get? it sounds reasonable. if it is not going anywhere, how does it reduce the deficit? >> well, that's where we come in. we have to make sure we educate voters so they understand what we stand for and have true solutions that aren't radical or draconian that actually will address the problems the americans care about. >> dominates the congress and white house, you don't get anything done. >> i don't know that it dominates a congress. it is a matter of making sure we can convince americans and americans are willing to stand up for our values. >> i just have -- want to know wait goes to. every political party, abolitionists said we would get rid of slavery. what do you call it -- let's see, civil rights wants to -- they all have a goal in mind. what i don't understand with the tea party is i know your

posture, against government spending. what's your goal? reach a passage on the floor and signed by a president, gradual reduction of the dealt. >> balanced budget within five years, cuts the overspending. stops the overspending. 20, 30 years. i appreciate the fact that he's put that plan forward. he has put a plan forward. but 20, 30 years, we can't -- >> let's -- please come back to the show. i want to talk about how it gets done. there's so much posturing. nancy pelosi can posture. everybody can posture. >> we are worried about -- >> strong, solvent, sovereign once again. that's what happened under reagan. reagan inherited a horrible economy and he fixed it. just about two years' time he was able to campaign with it is morning in america again. obama is hoping americans don't recognize the fact that government actions do directly have an impact on whether a

recession is prolonged or shortened. barack obama could have done something and he chose not to. he chose to make the problem worse. >> thank you, christine o'donnell from delaware. a great state. first state. jenny beth martin from georgia. jenny beth. i love the double names. future speaker tonight will be paul ryan. we will talk about him, big story. is he the guy we are looking at now with all the pompoms there, is he actually the fiscal conservative he claims he is? is he another party hack who votes for anything the president wants? all the war he, prescription drugs he wants and tax cuts he wants. is -- we will get to that when "hardball" returns. we're sitting on a bunch of shale gas.

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we are back. in just a few hours paul ryan will give the most important speech for his political career. in tampa it is ryan, not his boss now, mitt romney, who is the big draw on the ticket. jaymar tin, jonathan martin, writes about the young republicans they see, heir to ronald rag sxan future of their party. quote, two bookends, reagan and ryan represent a party that's unmistakably moving from george w. bush's compassionate conservative its tomorrow a new republicanism that sounds a lot like the old-time religion. with fresher packaging and to use the language of their youth, children of the '80s want to dispense for good with new coke.

and return to coca-cola classic. i understand -- how about zero? anyway -- at the same time, though, while ryan may play the role of the party's chief deficit hawk, is history. specifically his 14-year record in congress paints very different future. very different picture. there was a writing slip. we will ask him about that. jo gentlemen, it issa great to hav you. i was surprised to read in writing he voted for prescription drugs, voted for the wars. voted for the auto bailout. never once for the bridge to nowhere. never saying wait a minute, i'm a fiscal conservative. he said yes, boss, yes, boss, yes, boss, yes, boss. to every spending and tax cut that enlarged the debt. actually accelerated the growth of the debt under w. how do you explain it? >> he didn't get religion to deficits until a democrat became president. look, i think if he had to do it over again he would have been --

much more fiscally conservative. there's huge regret among a lot of republicans about the spending during the bush years. there's no question that his record on spending is mixed given the fact he did walk the line, as they say in congress, on a lot of those tough votes during the bush years. >> that's what -- the tea party people are -- lot of them don't like. they don't like people that just do the party business. >> and -- that -- tea party crowd is as upset with president bush as they were. keep in mind tea party started with t.a.r.p. in the fall of '08 when bush was still president. that's what started this movement was the spending and -- began under bush. >> let me talk to you -- my daughter worked for the simpson bowles. i was than for it at the time but looking back i think that could have been a smart move for the president. saying it is not my budget but a compromised budget. paul ryan wouldn't be for it. he said month. he could have made it happen. guys like durbin voted for it.

he wouldn't do it. there is another cause he didn't do what it took to be a true leader. is the real ryan or a guy that pretends to be the real ryan? >> i don't think he knows who the real ryan is. he came washington careerist. he came there out of college. he was working with jack kemp. he helped write kemp's speeches in the campaign. this is a guy who has believed a lot of things for a long time. but the one thing he has always done is default to the chamber of commerce position. he's always done what wall street ceos ask. you're not going to find much different than that now. i somewhat disagree with my friend here. i do believe it. and i was with his mom this afternoon. i don't think he's a bad guy. >> let me ask the other guy. a lot of us grew up, maybe guys your age, you're old for it. but most of us fell in love with ayn rand. we read atlas shrugged.

some people still believe that stuff. is that something that guides paul ryan? that belief in individual? >> if you look at the votes he took during the bush years, you would think otherwise. he was a party man during a lot of those years. i think he is driven. go back to his college year when he started reading these books. i think he more than most politicians and members of congress certainly is somebody who's driven less by quarterly fund raising numbers and polling in his direct and more by issues and ideas and trying to get things done. now, that's a pretty low bar given that most members of congress are chiefly interested. their political creatures. that's not a criticism. that's who they are. i think he's more of an ideas guy. in terms of application, during the bush years it wasn't quite the true believer. i think you're seeing that more now. it's going to be fascinating to see what ps here on the years ahead. how he does vote. >> i don't disguise the fact i like obama.

but i also look to the possibility if you get a republican victory for the presidency by romney, he could easily win. he could win. he would bring the senate with him. all it takes for reconciliation. they could cut taxes for the rich, cut cap gains, keep the bush tax cuts and cut the programs they want to cut and go after entitlements except for social security. they could do that. we could have a real one-party government for awhile. do you think ryan would go and do it even if it means risking defeat in 2014. >> no. i think he would be what he's not always been. a political guy. he's a republican. i think he likes to believe he is a guy who would be a gold reaganesque leader. and it's important to say reagan made compromises. >> you and i cover politics. would this next administration if republican be a true ideology administration or play politics and not really do it?

>> if washington is based on compromise, if you want anything done you have to compromise somewhat. the next administration be it romney or obama term two, they're going to compromise with the other party to get some type of a package. >> i disagree with you. >> but otherwise it's gridlock. >> i think they're going for it. i think they'll get through one big smashing right wing move, then pay for it. >> how do you do it? >> 50 votes it all it takes for cutting taxes and spending. it takes 60 votes to do something. it takes 50 to screw it and get rid of it. thank you. we're all learning these procedures. >> reconciliation. >> isn't that boring? be sure to tune in monday night at 10:00 p.m. eastern for my documentary barack obama making history. it's a hell of a lot better. that's "hardball." this is the the place for politics. stay tuned tonight for rachel maddow and myself and the others on this team. we're going to be here all night. the capital one cash rewards card

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we're back out here with the real people. it's a mixed bag tonight. who are you for for president and why? quickly. >> romney, of course, because only conservative principles promote liberty, freedom, and prosperity. only conservatives. >> madam? >> democrats.

for obama. for america. >> obama, no more deregulation. >> obama. >> tell me who you are. >> i'm minister from north carolina. >> who are you for? >> i'm for mitt romney and paul ryan. >> okay. why? >> the reason why we elected a president based on perception instead of substance our economy is out of control to the place it has become a security issue. and finally romney has the experience to get this country back to where it needs to be. >> are you a minister? >> i am. >> you sound like one. >> you're with one of the largest tea party organizations. >> we are. >> what do you think -- is the tea party running the republicans or is the republican party running the tea party? >> we want to redeem them. >> you want to run it, don't you? >> we don't want to run anything. we just want to support conservative candidates. >> how are you going to get something done though? i understand your posture. lower spending, lower taxes. but how do you get that through the congress and get it signed

into law and actually do something? or is it just a protest movement? >> you hold the politicians accountable when you express to them how many members you have. you tell them the political clout. they understand that. they want votes. they'll adhere to the constitution from that point on. >> are you worried you get tea party people nominated and they get blown away in the general election like in nevada and delaware. we just had christine o'donnell here. you have people too far right for the voters and end up with nothing. >> it happens in any election. we'll see what happens in texas with cruz. i believe you'll see a different story there. >> thank you. thanks for coming here. who are you for and why? >> i'm for obama. i think he's done wonderful things for the middle class for the people who need health care. i'm for pro-obama care. he's made great strides in immigration. lyme looking forward to him winning another term. >> you ladies are traveling the country talking about the importance of having fair taxes on the upper 2%. right? >> we are. we're touring around. we