msnbc takes you behind the walls of america's most notorious prisons into a world of chaos and danger. now, the scenes you've never seen. "lockup: raw." >> shot the man three times, right? >> and we beat him to death. >> and i held him in a choke hold. >> i shot him. >> i took the towel and strangled him. and when they opened the door, i tried to throw him a you have the tier.

>> murder is a respected crime in here by a lot of these inmates. >> kill or be killed. >> human beings are the most dangerous animal on earth. >> he ran up the stairs, i fired. >> [ bleep ] happens. one of the most intense things our "lockup" field crew encounters when they go inside a maximum security prison is conducting interviews with murderers. sitting five, six feet away from a very violent offender. but more often than not, they leave those conversations feeling like they just talked to somebody who's a normal, everyday guy. [ laughs ] >> when our crew went behind the 40-foot walls of indiana state prison, they had ample opportunity to meet killers among the 2,000 inmates that are incarcerated there. >> the number one charge at this facility is murder. approximately 70% of the

offenders housed here are housed here for taking the life of another human being. >> one of the those offenders is jocco bailey. at age 16, he received a 40-year sentence for murder. >> i was selling marijuana. two older guys wanted to buy some weed. when they seen i was young, i guess they figured they could take the weed. they figured wrong. because i was carrying a weapon. it was a gunfight. one of the guys ended up dead, the other ended up wounded. and i ended up in prison, to my regret and my family's regret and the person that's dead's regret. >> when we met him, bailey had been in prison at indiana state for 17 years and spent more than 11 of them confined to a 23-hour-per day lockdown cell in administrative segregation. >> a person ends up in

administrative segregation is an offender that usually is a problem child in the institution. our security prep threat members, the people who want to make money in the institution by trafficking. the troublemakers. >> but bailey seemed more interested in creature comforts than violence. >> this is my la-z-boy. my chair. sitting in the cell for years and years and years will mess your back up because these steel beds, and through the years, people jump up and down on them, so that makes them uneven and it will give you back problems for the rest of your life. and that's it. this is my home. this is my -- this is where i live. >> bailey is also allowed out of his cell once a day for an hour of recreation in an enclosed yard. >> why is it important to keep someone like this segregated? he seems to be just a sociable kind of guy. >> sure. a lot of sociopaths are. a lot of his problems are

substance abuse related and that leads to other problems, for instance violence in the institution. so that's why he is where he is. it isn't like he hasn't been in the open population -- he has been. but he hasn't been successful. >> i've stabbed offenders for snitching. i've had illicit drug activity, i've organized gang group demonstrations. i've been incorrigible and been an all-around troublemaker for most of my years here at the prison. >> but bailey says there's a practical side to his behavior. >> in prison, there's a delicate balance. because some guys here are never going home. and for those of us who are, if we lose our edge one bit, then, like wolves, your own could turn on you. being in this environment, i've

had to become and to be a predator in order to avoid being prey. >> finding appropriate housing for convicted killers who have continued their violent ways behind bars is always a challenge. a fact dramatically illustrated during our visit to kern valley state prison in california. >> it's always work, work, work, you know? >> when we met james randall, he was working his prison job helping officers serve food to his fellow inmates. when we sat down to talk in his cell, randall seemed to only have one concern. how his shaved head looked on camera. >> ain't got no lint on my head or nothing? >> no, you're fine. >> i'm cool. i got a gang out of it. i don't want to be shining. i'll be shining like money. >> when you interview people in prison, you know they are in there for a good reason. and when you meet them, sometimes they're very likable. they might even be somebody you

think you could be friends with. but sometimes you end up hearing a jaw-dropping story. and the day we met james randall, we heard a jaw-dropping story. >> i originally came to jail, february 21st, 1981. i was convicted in san bernardino county for murder/robbery. >> given a sentence of 34 years to life, randall was 18 at the time of his conviction. but his rap sheet started much earlier. >> i have been gang banging since i was 9 years old. coming from an impoverished neighborhood in southern california, my mother and father tried to move to pomona to establish a better life for us. but by the time we moved to pomona, which is mostly a middle-to-upper class neighborhood, being already bit by the gang bug, we just exported the gang life out there. >> randall's gang activity led to his incarceration by the california youth authority, and soon after, prison. there he joined a militant gang called the black guerrilla family. >> ended up in 15 years solitary

>> ended up spending 15 years in solitary confinement for my prison activities and conduct. tried to get back into the main line, but it was kind of hard after facing walls for 15 years and handcuffs everywhere i went. i didn't adjust too well. i still became more assaultive, more combative, more violent. >> after 25 years of incarceration, randall had plenty of violent episodes to share. >> i had threw a bomb in an inmate's cell and blew his toilet off the wall, you know, and blew a patch of his leg off. an officer came to my door. i made a zip gun out of some magazines and i shot him in the face. >> as the story unfolds about why he's there, and what he's done in prison, it can send chills up your spine. and then it occurs to you, i'm sitting right in front of this guy. anything can happen to me. >> but most of randall's violence was directed at his cell mates. >> i don't have a problem taking a cellie but what i have a problem with is crackheads.

people who don't know how to gel. people who like exposing themselves to female staff. i have a mother and sister. i don't play that. >> one cellie in particular sent randall into a rage. >> he had raped and cut these females up and cut their aerolas off their chest and put "v" and "g" on the wall. he's bragging about what he did. i said you really did that? what got me was he blew a 9-year-old girl's head off. i said, man, you really did that? he started laughing. he said, yeah. so what i did to him, i said i'm going to treat you like you did them women. and i stuck my hand up his ass to my forearm and i bashed his head and made him drink out of that toilet. and i took that towel and strangled him. and i tried to throw him off the tier and they said, that's it. you can't have no more cellies, man. >> randall eventually quit his gang and his behavior improved even more after correctional officials told him that despite his violent record, he might one day be released.

>> after all these years, i never gave that no thought because i didn't care. i was playing tag with satan. i didn't care. now, i look back on it and i think, wow, they are seriously considering letting me go. i haven't had a write-up in three years. that's like a dope fiend going through withdrawal. >> for somebody who had led such a violent past, it was very interesting to find what james randall did in his spare time. he made cards -- cute little cards, like, for kids. >> draw like little mickey mouses, i love you, happy birthday. it was like therapy for me. instead of acting out, i draw. >> though randall has attempted to put violence behind him, he knows his past can haunt him, in prison or out. >> in my mind, coming from the dark side, as i like to call it, you're out but you're never out. if i walk up and i'm in like sears or one of the department stores, say i got my son or

daughter or my wife with me and some gang members that have heard of me see me, i might be dead right there, along with my wife and kids. so once you're in, you're never out until you're dead. even when you're dead, it's going to always be there, no matter what i do. bye! next, on "lockup: raw" -- >> i was 16 and i shot somebody. >> you know, me being 15, one side of me wanting to soot at somebody. >> when i was 12 years old, i killed some guy who tried to kill my brother. >> teens who kill and one father's determination to end the cycle. >> this is our son, evan. tomorrow he would have been 10 years old. he's not here to celebrate it. hey! did you know that honey nut cheerios has oats that can help lower cholesterol? and it tastes good? sure does! wow. it's the honey, it makes it taste so... well, would you look at the time... what's the rush? be happy. be healthy. before i started taking abilify, i was taking an antidepressant alone.

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one of the more unique facilities ever profiled on "lockup" is the stark youth correctional facility in southern california. referred to as wards, rather than inmates, the young men

incarcerated here were all convicted as juveniles for serious crimes. they transfer to stark when they turn 18 and depending on their sentence, will remain here until age 21 or 25. we met several wards convicted of murder. they asked that we not use their last names. >> when i was like 12 years old, i killed some guy who tried to kill my brother. and it was gang related. and i retaliated and been in here ever since. >> you shot him? >> no, we beat him to death with tire irons, lumberjacks, mops, stuff like that. >> the guy walked through the gate. i drew down on him with a .22. and told him he was selling dope and we told him not to sell dope in this particular area. he looked at me and tried to get the gun out of my hand. he ran up the stairs. i fired. he got shot seven times. and i killed him. me being 15, it excited me to

shoot at somebody. because it made other people look at me and say, man, you see that guy, that's a cool guy there, it made me proud. >> what made you proud? >> them knowing that i would kill somebody and not even worry about it or not worry about getting caught. >> i was 16 and i shot somebody. it was the first day of the semester and i was by myself and, you know, there was one of my rivals with a bunch of his home boys, probably about 15 or 20 of them. i was surrounded by everybody, something was going to happen to me. and i was genuinely scared. i was worried for my own life. my reaction was to pull out my gun. and, you know, in the middle of the confrontation, i shot him. and the gun had discharged while i was running and another innocent bystander was shot in the process. human beings are the most dangerous animal on the earth.

and when it comes down to what i was doing, it was insane. >> this is our son, evan. tomorrow he would have been 10 years old. he's not here to celebrate it. >> on our second day of shooting at stark, some of the wards were getting a tough lesson on the consequences of violence. >> i'm leading prayer at the church as a licensed minister. i get a phone call that says you need to come to the park because there's been a shooting that involved your family. we need you to come right now. >> the father of evan foster told the group how a bullet found his son at a neighborhood park. >> my wife took him to sign him up for basketball, to pick up a trophy. the trophy is not there. they go to leave and she sees some guys in the parking lot and basically, the guys came and they were seeking to kill somebody. they actually told the authorities later, they came to

kill somebody. and since there was two rival gang situations, they saw a red car and they decided they were going to kill that person. they approach him, pull out an assault weapon and he takes off running. unfortunately, he runs toward our vehicle. my wife sees all this as she's putting the kids in the car. she's trying her best not to frighten them. so she just floors it. she puts it in reverse and she tries to get out as fast as she can. she's talking to evan and everything saying i'm sorry i didn't get your trophy. he's saying, that's all right, mom, i -- then he stops talking. she took him in her arms and stroked his head. one eye was hanging out like a slinky. you could see all the veins and everything. the eye was hanging out. he had got destroyed on this side of the face and he also had a big gash in his forehead. she stroked his head, she said and she told him, i'm sorry that i didn't get you out of here. you know, these are the kind of

things we have to live with. for mr. foster, sharing the story of his son's death, helps relieve his pain. he spoke to the wards for more than an hour. >> i'll keep trying until there's no breath left in me because the cycle needs to stop. but if you don't begin to look at the cycle or touch the cycle or try to impact it, it just continues to spiral. >> one of the gang bangers involved in shooting evan had once been incarcerated at stark. one of his former dorm mates also convicted of murder within, raised his hand to speak to foster. >> on behalf of all of us, i want to apologize. you know what i mean, for the mentality that we grew up with, the state of mind that we're in and the decisions that we make to make that kind of action or take that kind action towards other human beings. on behalf of the men that are incarcerated, i want to apologize for that. and thank you for sharing that with us.

>> my reaction was sincere appreciation that he could be that sensitive or that charitable and take, in an odd sort of way, some ownership or some responsibility for the maladaptive actions that this other person did. my son evan was about love. he wrote this campaign speech, a class assignment, one of his last class assignments. and one of the things he said in the campaign speech is, i would tell those who bring harm to others to go to church. next on "lockup raw: killers among us" -- >> i think the greatest fear the public should have is that some of these people are going home. >> a freed convict commits murder on the outside and then again back on the inside. >> and i held him in a choke hold and my friend started hitting him, beating him up. full tank brain freeze cake donettes

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our communities. they're going to go back and live next to you or him or me. i want to make sure i've done everything i can so when he does live next to me, i can worry about asking him to turn his music down, maybe share a 40 with me, have a barbecue but not whether or not he's hiding automatic weapons. >> we've also heard the warnings from inmates. >> i think the greatest fear the public should have is some of these people are going home. when they get out there, you're going to meet these guys in an alley one day. if he asks you for your wallet and you don't give it to him, he's going to callously pull out a gun and shoot you dead. he's been taught that in here, to be sensitive is to be weak. >> but for johnny estrada, the warnings turned into reality. >> when you're in prison, you learn a certain mentality. and that was my mistake when i got out. i took that mentality that i

learned in here out there. and it didn't get me nothing but back here. >> here is colorado state penitentiary. and this time, estrada is in for murder, a crime he committed after being released from his first prison term. >> in here, you take things a lot more serious. somebody calls you a punk, somebody calls you a bitch, someone says i'm going to kill you, in here that means, you know, you hold people to that word -- to them words, man. when i got out and guys were saying that about me, i'm going to kill john, i'm going to do this to him. the first thing in my mind is i better go kill him before he gets me even though he was probably talking out of his ass. and he really didn't understand the type of person that i am and where i've been and the thought process that i've learned in here. and he's dead now for it. it's kind of like, kill or be

killed. >> estrada's prison education started early. >> how old were you when you were first arrested? >> when i was first -- oh, about 13, 14. >> what did you do? >> stealing a stereo out of a car. that's how it all began. start out stealing bubble gum at the stores all the way to snatching purses, stealing car stereos, stealing bikes, stealing the whole car, breaking in houses, robberies, escape, just graduate all the way to murder. it seemed like it was a never-ending chain. >> and estrada added even more links to that chain. when he returned to prison on the murder charge, he was involved in another killing. >> another inmate came up behind a friend of mine and stabbed him in the eye. i got up. he tried to come and stab me and i grabbed him and i held him in a choke hold. and my friend started hitting him, beating him up. all the officers were aware of this already at time.

and they have a policy here. they won't intervene unless there's four officers to one inmate. and this pod at time, there's 16 of us out in the pod eating breakfast. and that's, what, 64, that need to come in. they just sat there and watched. and i didn't want to let go of the guy, because he still had a knife tied to his hand, so i never let go. and he ended up dying. >> estrada was again found guilty of murder. but he hasn't given up his kill-or-be-killed outlook. >> i can't sit here and say, i'm remorseful for what i did, because it's better him than me. they chose their own fate. i mean, taking human life, that's the worse you can possibly do. but i'm not going to let anybody hurt me or do anything to me. and i have to live regardless of the consequences, if i have to pick up 40-year sentences, 50-year sentences for defending myself, then i'll do that.

you know, i'll do everything i cannot to be carried out in a box from in here. >> together, estrada's sentences almost guarantee that the only way he will ever leave prison is in a box. >> the first murder case i got 36 years for. the second one i got 48. so now i'm doing 84 years. you know, i could sit here and blame the officers for not coming in and intervening. you know, i didn't have to choke the dude for six minutes. >> though estrada could be spending the rest of his life in this super max penitentiary, he isn't losing sleep over it. >> is there a bible down there? you read that much? >> no. it's just there for good luck. at peace? i'm at peace with myself. you have to be. i mean, i think there's a certain time when you have to look at reality and say, well, this is home. this is home. you can't focus on what's going on out there. can't let it -- can't let it go

to you. you just have to forget about the outside world and understand that this is your world now and this is reality and this is home. i can sit here and say, well, i did what i had to do, regardless of the consequences. i can't sit here and kick myself in the ass for it. [ bleep ] happens. next on "lockup: raw" -- >> i'm in here for heat of passion. i caught my wife with somebody and -- >> the spouse killers. >> i had tried to make it look like a suicide. i mean, my husband had been suicidal. he was -- had a history of being suicidal. on every one of our cards there's a date.

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i'm milissa rehberger. here's what's happening. evacuation orders are in effect for a neighborhood of about 1,200 homes north of new orleans. officials there are trying to relieve pressure on a nearby river lock. more than 300,000 people in louisiana are still without power after hurricane isaac. and a crash at an air show near davenport, iowa, left the pilot dead.

crowds saw the soviet-era retired military jet go down and erupt into flames. no one on the ground was hurt. now back to "lockup." prisons usually aren't associated with churches. but over the years on "lockup," we filmed almost every type of religion there is. and yet, still, on a standard cell search, we found out behind bars, few things are sacred. >> even though they have their bible or koran, whatever religious preference they are, they'll still hide dope in it, and weapons in it. you'll find razor blades and dope stuffed in the bindings. everybody finds god in prison. if you're looking for him, this is where he's at. come on in. >> we've met some inmates that have seemed very devout, even as

they grapple with the realities of their crime. ♪ >> it was in the middle of central california we heard the sounds of the muslim call to prayer emanating from a cell at kern valley state prison. cellmates jose garza and rehan ali bhutto explain to our crew how their religious practices aren't hindered by prison bars. >> at 5:00 we come up and do prayers. we begin our day like that. >> talk to me guys, why this cell is so different from the other cells you've been in. >> hoff of islam is based on cleanness. we have to be clean. so we keep ourselves clean and well organized. islam is islam. in here or the street, it's the same. >> but bhutto and garza have more in common than religion. >> my sentence is life without a possibility of patrol.

>> i'm charged with murder, first degree, so as far as details, life without possibility -- same thing. >> i'm here for heat of passion. i caught my wife with somebody and -- >> and? >> killed her. >> okay. >> you know, i'm not proud. i've regretted every single minute of it. >> so what was the charge? what was the conviction? it's not heat of passion. >> it is heat of passion. >> you know, rehan told us that he took responsibility for his actions, but during the course of the interview, it seemed as though he kind of left the door open a little crack as if to say, i'm not really sure. >> a lot of people say i can justify according to the bible or koran. if your spouse is cheating on somebody, you have a right. god tells it a certain way. it is, but you're better -- be better -- we are human beings. we are given choice, right from wrong. i knew what was right. what i did, i can't justify it. she had a mother. she was somebody's daughter. she had a father. the worst part is, i have a daughter with my wife and she don't have a mother or a father

for what i did. i live with that every day. >> born in pakistan, but raised in wyoming, bhutto told us his religion made him a victim as well. >> during my trial, it was after september 11th. so it was part of it. not a one case like mine, anybody got a sentence like i did. because i'm from pakistan. i believe in muslim. you know what i mean, i'm muslim. still, i'm a firm believer, whatever i have coming, nobody can stop it. nobody can benefit me or nobody can harm me without his permission. the way of the muslim i believe is when leaves fall from the tree, it doesn't fall without his will. so every day what i do, what i don't, it's been written in my book. ♪ won't you take my hand ♪ we will follow just the same >> bhutto is not the only spouse killer we've met that sees the hand of god at work in their lives. ♪

>> our crew first noticed cynthia while she was singing in the gospel choir at the north carolina correctional institute for women. >> i've been convicted of first-degree murder and my sentence is life in prison without parole. >> but the real surprise came when she told us of her life before prison. the mother of two used to make her living on the other side of the bars. >> there's not too many people in here who used to be a correctional officer for the same state they are now incarcerated in. but it's actually been very helpful to me. because having been an officer, i can understand the reasons behind a lot of the silly rules that we got to go through and the procedures the we have got to go through. i understand their perspective more. and so, it just -- it's easier to take some of the humiliations we have to go through. >> rupel offered no excuses for her fall from corrections officer to inmate.

>> i'm convicted of first-degree murder. it was in the death of my husband. we'd been married 22 1/2 years and he was a good man. my husband did not abuse me. he did not deserve what i did to him. it's horrendous. there's no excuse for what i did. i know that i'm here -- that life is a merciful sentence for what i've done. my husband was clinically depressed. when he would be off his medication, be in a depressive state, he was not an easy man to live with at that time. he was hard to please. and yes, there was another man involved at that time and my husband knew about that. but he didn't -- i guess he really didn't see the danger in that. here he was being so difficult to please, and here was this other man who thought -- or at least told me -- that you know, i'm just a goddess, i walk on water and everything i do is right. >> ruppel believed her

background in law enforcement would allow her to pull off the perfect murder. >> it happened on a saturday morning and i was arrested monday morning. it was pretty fast. i guess it was pretty obvious, too. and i tried so desperately to convince people i was innocent. i had tried to make it look like a suicide. i mean, my husband had been suicidal. he was -- had a history of being suicid suicidal. so i figured that would be just the easiest way. make it look like he did it. >> how did you do that? >> well, i'll -- >> i mean, how did he die? >> i shot him. i shot him. and -- i wish i could go back. in one stupid moment, i destroyed everything. and i lost everything i thought i was going to keep. you know, i lost my husband.

and he was a good man. like he said, he did not deserve what i did to him. i lost my daughters. >> ruppel told us she regrets the past, but she's also moving on. >> i still face the consequences of what i did. but i don't go around, bowed down with that guilt. yes, i'm guilty, but god has forgiven me. >> but ruppel told us her religious conversion wasn't easy. >> we had these ladies that would come in, you know, do a little bible study. i've got to say, i'm sorry, i hated them. come in with their cheery little faces, telling me, you know, everything will be all right, everything will be all right. jesus will fix it. and i was like, you don't know what you're talking about. you're not facing what i'm facing. i was facing the death penalty

at that point and i don't want to hear it. until finally i just, yeah, all right, i'll come if you'll just leave me alone. you know, i don't want to hear it -- and don't ask me to talk. that's how i was. >> eventually, ruppel joined the bible study and found a connection with several of the other participants. they, too, killed their husbands or boyfriends. >> it helps me just knowing that i've got sisters i can lean on and someone i can talk to, someone i can share these things with. because in here, i mean, you've got to be careful who you share things with. ♪ >> while ruppel appeared to have found redemption behind bars, our crew was struck by a partying comment made by none other than the director of her prison choir. >> inmates are con artists. they kind of have to be to survive, okay? and you can't be sure, no matter how beautiful the song sounds,

how much heart and soul and person there is behind that song. i mean, they're not very different from the rest of us. ♪ coming up on "lockup: raw, killers among us" -- >> i have to say, but murder is a respected crime in here by a lot of these inmates. >> i just shot the man three time. and the other police, he was still down, right, so i shot him three times. so now i can be in the scene. advair is clinically proven to help significantly improve lung function. unlike most copd medications, advair contains both an anti-inflammatory and a long-acting bronchodilator working together to help improve your lung function all day. advair won't replace fast-acting inhalers for sudden symptoms and should not be used more than twice a day. people with copd taking advair may have a higher chance of pneumonia. advair may increase your risk of osteoporosis

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over the years on "lockup," we've learned two things about convicted killers. one, they can come from any part of society. and two, they assume a place of honor on the inmate hierarchy. >> probably your most respected inmates here are your men who

are serving life sentences for murder. and then it goes all the way down to armed robbery, then we get burglary issues, grand theft auto, robbery. >> you'll hear them say, i'm not a thief, i'm a killer, i'm a murderer. >> i hate to say it, but murder is a respected crime in here by a lot of these inmates. and they don't bother mae. >> we met jerold in iowa where he was serving two life sentences for murder and attempted murder. >> hey, albert? >> 11 years older, reefland opened fire at the factory where he worked. >> i was suffering from paranoid schizophrenia and i didn't know it at time, and my family was trying to get my committed. and i refused to go to a mental health place, because i was afraid that they would take away my guns, because i was a gun collector and i had a lot of guns. and i knew that once i had -- they'd found me mentally incompetent, i wouldn't be able to have guns anymore. and it developed to the point where i got delusional and i hallucinated and i imaged that

my wife had been kidnapped, raped, tortured, and killed by these guys at work and so i thought i'd take vengeance into my own hands and that's what i did. i shot two employees in the head, and then i also shot two in the leg. >> reefland's symptoms have been treated with medication for several years and he now works in another factory, the mental health shop on prison grounds. >> here you are back in a work environment. your fellow workers here, do they know what your crime was? i'm just curious how that played out. >> oh, i would imagine that some of them were a little leery of me, probably a little scared. i know i got a lot of respect, it seemed like. >> where? >> at work and in the yard and stuff, because of my crimes. >> reefland's not the only convicted murderer who sees fear behind the respect. when our crew arrived at anamosa, they were warned, the toughest inmate here might just be james "t-bone" taylor.

he is serving a double life sentence for murdering two police officers in 1981. >> i have a cop killing case and it made me feel like i was big man on campus, you know, because i was getting the respect, but it was only out of fear. it wasn't because they respected me because of who i was. >> taylor was involved in gang-related activity on both sides of the walls since he was a teenager in east st. louis. he earned his nickname, t-bone, while serving time at another prison. >> because an incident happened down at ft. myers in the '70s. it was hard to get a knife, so i had made a knife out of bone, out of t-bone steak. we used to get steaks back there, back in the day. and i had sharpened it down and i was going to stab a guy with it. and before i could stab the guy with it, they had busted me with it, you know. they just seen it in my hand, you know, so they took it. and the guys in the penitentiary started calling me t-bone. >> but it was taylor's desire to rise to the top of the gang hierarchy on the outside that

led him to commit the cold-blooded murders for which he will spend the rest of his lives behind bars. it happened at a party in waterloo, iowa. when police arrived to shut it down, taylor grabbed one of the officer's pistol. >> i just -- i shot the man three times, right? everybody broke and run, and the other police, he was still down, right? so i ran over there and then i shot him three times. it wasn't because i was on no drug or no alcohol. you know, i wasn't impaired, you know. >> and afterwards? >> trying to get away. it wasn't no remorse or nothing, when i tried -- i got -- i wasn't even thinking about turning myself in or nothing like that, right? i'm here for about like five or six days in the cornfields, before they caught me, right? they give me a natural life sentence, you know? discharged by death. >> for the next 20 years, taylor was transferred between various prisons due to his gak activity

and predatory behavior. the aging inmate landed in anamosa in 2002. shortly afterwards, taylor chose to participate in a victim impact program. but it wasn't out of remorse. he was hoping it would earn him a transfer back to his favorite prison. >> but first, i was going to use it to try to get back to ft. madison. you know, i want to play a game, you know? because i wanted to go back to ft. madison. >> but his participation in the program required him to meet the sister of one of the officers he murdered. >> i was scared. you know, because -- you know, we'd be under the illusion that they was going to come and scream at us and cuss us at and call us all kinds of name and this and that. so i'm sitting down and i'm scared, i'm truly scared. and the first thing she asked me, she said, why'd you kill my brother? and i didn't have no reason. she said, did you call my

brother because i was the police? and i said no. and she said, what if i killed your mother or something? and i broke down. and we cried. i'm serious. we cried, because she said, you know, she said, i hate you. she said, i wish you was dead, you know? and it was hard for me, because all this time, i've that was been in control. and she took that control and i couldn't, like, attack her or nothing like that. you know what i mean? that wasn't even in my mind. i didn't have control of the situation. she took control of the situation. she asked me, should i be forgiven? i said, no. she said, i'm going to forgive you. you know what i'm saying? everything that i perceived that made me the big dog, she just took all that from me. you know what i mean? she took all that from me. she made me real humble, you know what i mean? i'm saying we hugged when she left. i killed this woman's brother.

and people don't do that, right? people don't just do that. >> taylor found it hard to shrug off the emotions stirred up by the visit. >> because i was brought up if you murder, people will get over it, you know? i was a hard and violent person. now that i see a whole different side of me, this is how i go, man. people don't forget. people don't forgive all the time. i'm saying you have to live with this your whole life. coming up -- >> we're not looking for pity. what we're looking for is understanding that we know we did wrong. >> t-bone's past continues to haunt him. hey! did you know that honey nut cheerios

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james "t-bone" taylor was one of the most respected inmates among inmates at iowa's anamosa state penitentiary. not for doing good but for being a two-time cop killer.

but when a survivor of one of his victims forgave him, taylor claims to have grown a conscience. in response, he and some other inmates were inspired to start a group they called s.a.v.e., seriously acknowledging victim's emotions. >> not enough attention is paid toward the victim. this group here is like an aftercare. it gives guys a chance to come and sit down and understand and find out why they have the behaviors that they have. >> our cameras rolled as inmates involved in the program met with families of victims. >> our past action implied that we held no regard for human life. today we know what it is to feel, see and hear all the insanity an destruction we've caused. this whole thing is not about us coming up here looking for pity. because we're not looking for pity. what we're looking for is an understanding that we know we did wrong. >> well, it affects me in a

sense because i know the impact in these later years what i done. i don't do this to think i'm going to get out of the penitentiary because i'm not. but it gives me a sense of understanding. it gives me a sense of responsibility for my own actions. >> good morning, everyone. i want to thank these guys for taking the time out to come up. this today is -- i'm nervous, by the way. >> the day was especially personal for one other inmate as well. >> i've been in for nearly 20 years. my victim's mom and stepdad are here today. vicki and greg. i want to thank them very much for coming. >> mark smith murdered his girlfriend jenny crompton when he was just 18 years old. through the program he was first confronted by his victim's mother and stepfather several years earlier. >> i was a mess. jenny had been gone eight years and i was still barely functioning. and i was full of anger and i was full of pain.

and my other children were suffering. >> i had numerous recurring dreams, kind of nightmares that i had a lot of anger. and i wanted to definitely take it out on him. >> the meeting lasted five hours. >> we brought with us, do you remember, some pictures of you guys when you were dating and then i also had this photograph of jenny dead on the emergency room table. i remember we kind of pulled out the nice pictures and mark was smiling and kind of talking about them and then pulled out this other picture. and i know that mark, you didn't want to look at it. and i was so angry, i just wanted to keep shoving it in front of your face. >> i found her. i was the one police took and a shoved into a little cell for several hours. i let mark know about that. hey, i was -- i didn't do it but i was the one they thought did it. and you did this to me, plus i

lost jenny that day. >> it's hard. every time i see these guys it's really hard because you're always thinking, i mean, it's like, i did something that completely damaged them, that will never go away, ever, for any of us. >> i remember, i said to you, i want to hear you say that you killed jenny. and i realize how hard that was for you but you did it. and for you -- and so everything just changed, because mark's reaction and he didn't try and act like, i didn't do it or it was your fault or -- but, no, i had to know. did jenny suffer? and from what mark told me, i believe that it was very quick. and so that has given me peace. >> when i walked out of there, i was probably 80 pounds lighter. you know? and i never since that day have ever had that same recurring

dream. i don't think about mark the way i did. and it was a great release. >> thank you. you guys are so great. >> while the s.a.v.e. program has helped eliminate the nightmares, it can't reverse the past for the victims, nor the future that's in store for these convicted killers. in iowa, first degree murder means life without parole. on our last day at anamosa, we ran into t-bone taylor as he was moving into a new cell. as he unpacked, he talked about his own mortality and the place at anamosa where someday his sentence will end. >> ain't nobody going to take my body, right, when i do die. so, you know, my plans are already, i'll let the institution bury me up on the hill. i done even had staff say they will tend to my gravesite for me. >> you're going to stay in