two days until the ultimate face-off between governor mitt romney and mr. obama. this time, the focus will be overseas. and these are two states that you might not think would be in play. there's pennsylvania, a blue state, and virginia, historically red. this afternoon, how they may decide who wins the white house. all right, topping our political headlines this hour, hunker down today, preparing for monday's third and final debate on foreign policy, the president is doing his prep work at camp david. mitt romney is doing his in florida. meanwhile, the candidates' running mates are out tonight trail, working hard today. vice president biden is in the sunshine state and is still speaking at a rally in st. augustine, where he went after mitt romney, accusing him of shifting positions on one too many times and too many issues. congressman paul ryan has events in a pair of battleground states, pennsylvania and ohio, to start the day. in pennsylvania this morning, ryan framed this election as a choice. take a listen. >> look, we have a very clear choice. america cannot afford four more

years of president obama's failed policies. we need real reforms for a real recovery to get people back to work, to get this kpli going again, to get us back on the path to reaching our ideal. >> early voting started in nevada today. all together, early voting is underway in the 29 states across the country plus washington, d.c. more on all these stories throughout the next three hours. definitely stay with us. all right, vice president biden in florida today, in st. augustine, where he's holding a campaign rally. let's listen to what he said moments ago. >> when my dad had to leave scranton for a year, to go down to wilmington to get up and get a new job and bring the family down, and things would be okay, i'll never forget, my kids, my siblings, it rings in our ears. from that point on, my dad used to say, some other job would come up, he would say, honey, a

job is about a lot more than a paycheck. it's about your dignity, it's about your sense of self-worth, it's about a sense of respect. it's mainly, if you're a parent, to be able to look in your child in the eye and say, honey, it's going to be okay. and so many middle class people and working class people have been decimated. not only in the loss of a job, but financial impact. >> all right, vice president joe biden in florida, been skewering the state along with joe biden, he is in st. augustine. carrie dan is with the vice president. she joins us on the phone. you know, the vice president called out mitt romney for romnesia, that term we've been hearing over the last day or so. what's the thought here? are we going to be hearing even more of these one-liners from vice president biden in the next few days? which would be fairly consistent, perhaps. >> hi, richard. it's certainly getting a big

response. joe biden over the last few days has used that romnesia line that the president produced, as well as saying that he thinks the that romney's plans aren't just sketchy, they're etch a sketchy. those are his big two zingers over the last two days. and they've gotten a big response from the crowd that's here. the crowd that's here is obviously supporters, but a lot of the goal is to get these people fired up, so they go into their communities is and mobilize other voters. it's funny, over the last few days and since that vice presidential debate, where he very famously used the word "malarkey" to describe what he thinks is the romney/ryan plan, the crowds have been chanting the word "malarkey." today he joked about it and said, my irish grandfather is very proud that all of america now knows what this word means. but he's trying to be the truth teller in chief. >> so the irishism continues. you know, what are you thaerg from vice president biden along with what we discussed? because as he does travel through florida, he has gone through some areas with large

proportions of senior citizens. senior citizens, in some cases, like in sun city, in the tampa area, that went two to one for mccain in '08. and with the medicare argument, that seemed to be a strong drum to have been beaten before, are you still hearing that? >> reporter: well, that's a lot of biden's pitch, no matter where he goes, but particularly in communities where there are a lot of seniors. he'll talk about the idea of voucher care, and he's trying to humanize it when he gives this part of his stump speech. he says, imagine your mother or you yourself getting a voucher in the mail, that says, just go out into the insurance market and try to find private insurance for yourself. he'll also make a differentiation between ryan's 2011 budget and ryan's 2012 budget. in the 2012 budget, it allowed the option for seniors to buy into medicare with that voucher. biden tries to underline, making the financial argument that the voucher, even if one was able to pay back into medicare, wouldn't

be enough to cover seniors' medicare needs, wouldn't be enough and then would cost them. he tries to use a lot of facts and figures as well as humanize it to the seniors themselves, saying, this is going to affect your kids and your grandkids. the audiences that are here are getting that kind of argument. something that biden is hoping will really touch their life and make it understandable for them. >> carrie, before you go, where's the next stop for vice president biden? >> reporter: the vice president will take tomorrow off and then he'll be in ohio for three days. it's a state where he spent a lot of time. that's the place he really tries to make an effective argument about the auto bailout. and he'll hold a joint rally with the president, their first appearance since after the democratic convention in ohio next week. >> business times. carrie dann traveling with joe biden. thanks so much. paul ryan just wrapped up two campaign rallies. moments ago, he was in belmont, ohio, where he talked about the national debt. here's what he said earlier. >> this mounting burden of debt,

it's not just hurting our economy today. it's not just giving us a threat of the debt crisis which is now plaguing europe, it is guaranteeing that these young people among us here in our audiences, our children and our grandchildren, it is guaranteeing that they have a diminished future. >> also on the trail, ron mott travel wing with the romney campaign. he joins us by phone from the campaign bus right now. ron, where are you guys headed and how have the messages been different for paul ryan in the two states this morning that he's been in? >> reporter: hey, there, richard. hope you can hear me. we're in the motorcade zipping back to the airport here, flying to the third event of the day. it's been a busy day already for paul ryan and lots of work to do for the rest of the day and through the weekend. we'll end the day in nebraska. but already this morning, he spoke at a quick little rally there at the pittsburgh airport. and then we just finished up a rally here in belmont, ohio. obviously, ohio, a critical,

critical state. he talked a lot about coal. this is coal country, eastern parks, western ohio. and we talked about the president's war on coal and said mitt romney would not continue such a war on that industry. the first thing they talk about or paul ryan does on these campaign stops in their five-point plan for a stronger middle class, he always talks about energy and using energy to put people back to work. that was really top of mind here today. for folks who came out to this rally. tomorrow we head off to iowa, a day of campaigning there, and monday in colorado before he and governor romney get back together for a joint rally tuesday in nevada, in henderson, just outside of las vegas. and when you go there, you've got to talk about jobs, because that is the epicenter, if you will, for unemployment in this country. the highest unemployment rate in the country. now, as you mentioned, paul ryan's got a busy schedule. governor romney, like the president, is down this weekend, pretty much preparing for the big third and final debate on monday in boca raton. and you know this debate is centered around foreign policy, and a lot of folks think that

favors the incumbent, because the president obviously has a four-year head start on intelligence and national security briefings. governor romney getting those as well now. but he's only been doing so for a couple three weeks. the campaign is pretty confident that he'll be well prepared for that showdown on monday, richard. >> ron mott with the motorcade of paul ryan, thank you so much for the latest on that. with just 17 days until the election, the obama campaign has some good reason to be optimistic in at least one swing state, critical to its success. there's a new fox news poll that has the president up in ohio, where earlier in-person voting already has begun. and while there are many factors at play, in a state where the manufacturing base is always a major concern, it's the president's support of the auto bailout that he keeps pressing in the ads like this latest one. take a listen. >> without president obama's rescue of the auto industry, ohio would have collapsed. >> mitt romney would have just let us go under. just let 'em go bankrupt. >> joining us now from

washington, anne kornblut, deputy national political editor for "the washington post," and here in new york, adam sorenson, an associate editor at "time" magazine. thank you both for joining us. adam, i want to start with you. you know, the president's lead, you know, we saw the new fox poll there. he's ahead, but you've been watching the numbers. that has been shrinking. it's somewhat expected as we get closer to election day, but most polls show he's never trailed this year. now, assuming this does hold, what is romney's strategy, do you think, these last two-plus weeks? >> i think that he has to -- romney definitely has to contend for ohio. it's not a place he can simply give up on. he is close and obama was leading before the first debate, probably by as much as five, six, seven, eight points. and now that is a much more narrow race. so i think he can contend there. but really what he needs, he really needs florida and a number of other states to help him close that margin, if he does, indeed, lose ohio, which looks incredibly possible. >> yeah, there are some key one or the others out there for him.

anne, to you. let's talk about what adam was just alluding to. florida, there are two new polls that show the same trend here. these are the numbers. an obama lead here, evaporating into a narrow romney lead, when we look at the obama versus romney florida poll numbers here today versus september 19th. and that has changed, as you can see here, to flip over. now, does the president need florida the way he does ohio, in the many scenarios that they're probably gaming? >> no, not quite as badly. i mean, the president actually has a number of paths to 270, more than mitt romney does. but even beyond the math, i would say that for mitt romney, ohio has symbolic value, which is that no republican has won the presidency without it. so there's both the merit in going there to get to the numbers and also because if he's seen as losing ohio, if he were to actually pull out of ohio wing that would be seen as

overall surrendering. obviously, there's other big states. virginia, florida, you can do the math, adding colorado, ohio, even new hampshire. those could make a big difference. but are they adding any states from their maps or taking any states away from their maps? so far, we haven't seen a whole lot of variation in the states they're contending in. >> adam, have you seen that change at all in the last few weeks as we've seen the debates come out and the polls changing? have you seen them reallocating their resources? for instance, romney moving resources out of north carolina, for instance? >> yeah, he did. i think you'll see minor judgments like that. north carolina is a special case where it's really looked the same for a long time. romney looks strong there. obama won it by a very narrow margin in 2008, which were, of course, historic margins for democrats. i think that's a special case and you definitely won't see major changes in states like ohio and florida. that being said, i think that there definitely is some kind of

aggressive minor tweaking at the last minute here, just to try to squeeze every single last electoral college vote out that they can. >> bottom of the seventh. anne kornblut and adam sorenson, stay with us. you'll be returning later in the hour. thank you very much. still to come, a florida judge rules in favor of a motion filed by george zimmerman's attorney. what that means for the trayvon martin case. we've got that they ahead. and now that the ninth circuit court has ruled the defense of marriage act unconstitutional, what can we expect when the issue gets to the supreme court? and coming up, has president obama made a clear case for a second term? we'll put that question up to his campaign. you're watching msnbc, the place for politics. [ male announcer ] when it comes to the financial obstacles military families face, we understand. at usaa, we know military life is different. we've been there. that's why every bit of financial advice we offer is geared specifically to current and former military members and their families. [ laughs ] dad! dad! [ applause ]

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two days ahead of a presidential debate that will focus on foreign policy.

republicans are pouncing on new details of the president's handling of the attack in libya. some of those details come from the "wall street journal," which reports that even as u.s. ambassador to the u.n. susan rice was saying the attack was sparked by protests to an anti-muslim video, intelligence analysis were receiving new information that contradicted that account. that's what was said in the "wall street journal". it also goes on to say that they took weeks longer for a new swlenlgs assessment discounting the protest to make its way into public statements from senior officials in the obama administration. with me now is karen kornblut, a former policy director to then senator barack obama. thanks for being with us today. appreciate your time, karen. >> thank you. >> now, this, as you were reading in the headlines yesterday, is on the heels of an ap report that the cia had knowledge a day after the attack that militants were involved. you put this all together, and you know, the president has got a lot of credit for how he handled the issue of libya in

the last debate, and so as we see more of these reports come out, does that basically negate that as we look forward to monday's debate? >> you know, i'm here to talk about the economy, but i'll just say on this topic, that the idea that the administration was playing politics on an issue of this importance is really, it's a shameful thing that this is being turned into a political issue. i know susan rice personally, the president i've worked, i know what the state department feels about its ambassadors. the idea that anyone would have been playing politics in the days after a tragedy like this is inconceivable to me, absolutely inconceivable. and i think that's where you saw the anger that the president showed at even the suggestion that that would have been happening in the aftermath of one of these things, there's a lot of confusion, there's a lot of research. i think we've seen that the talking points that the cia was putting out was exactly what ambassador rice was saying.

so i wish we would just stop playing politics with something as serious as this. >> and i do want to get to the economy, because this is pulling some of the message time. and there's only a certain amount of time that you can express these ideas. yet it is getting perhaps some traction. there's that new pew poll that shows the president has just a four-point advantage when it comes to voters' trust with regard to foreign policy. and that's now 47 to 43. you can see where that's changed, where he had 53 before. so when you look at this change, how concerned might the obama campaign be when the story line, the narrative that they probably would like to carry on is they have done well consistently. >> look, the priority that the country has right now is growing a strong economy. the priority is not more tax cuts for the wealthy, who have done really well over the past few years. and the president is trying to get out that message. the vice president is trying to get out that message. and i think that you see him trying to muddy the waters by

reinterpreting what governor romney's plan would do. but he's been extremely clear about his plan. and it's not what's needed to really grow a strong economy. which i think most americans absolutely know that we need to do. >> we've got one more jobs report coming out right now. we went down to 7.8% in the united states, which surprised many watchers, perhaps even you. when we're looking at the key swing states and their unemployment rates, you can draw a line of the states that seem to be leading, perhaps, towards romney right now, and having higher unemployment rates and those that have lower unemployment rates, in the midwest, for instance. ohio is an example. do you think that's where the line will be drawn, in terms of which way these states will go? >> listen, it's really good news right now about the economy. obviously, there's a lot more work that needs to be done, but all the numbers that are supposed to be going up are going up. we've got jobs numbers that are up, unemployment numbers that

are down. housing prices are starting to go up, foreclosures are going down. new starts going up. you see manufacturing and especially the auto industry growing at rates that you haven't seen since the clinton administration. >> is it enough, though? is it enough to get those voters in those swing states off the center to say, i'm going to go with the president, because of that? >> well, what they have to understand, and this is part of the challenge over the next weeks, is that the recovery is taking hold. the president has more that he wants to do. that's why he has the jobs act, that would keep teachers from being laid off, get construction workers on the job, invest in infrastructure, and then he's got this five-point plan, which he's been laying out very, very clearly and very concretely. and if you'll let me, i'll just go very quickly through it. one is to focus on manufacturing, create a million new manufacturing jobs. the second is to cut in half oil imports, and by producing more

american-made energy. then the third is to restore our competitiveness in education, incredibly important. and he wants to recruit and train 100,000 new math and science teachers. s the most important thing we can do, obviously. and then also make it easier for people to go to college, by cutting the growth in college costs and making student aid more available, by making community college more available. then he's going to do a balanced approach to reducing the debt and take some of that afghanistan money that's coming back, half of it to paying down the debt and the other half to doing nation building right here at home. i think that's an incredibly strong message. >> the criticism, though, is that that message of what's going to be happening in the next term has not been articulated clearly or with enough detail. and that criticism really has been leveled towards both sides. but karen kornbluh, thank you so much for laying out a portion of that. thanks again.

>> thank you so much. up next, what a white tie and tails can inspire a presidential candidate to say. that's up next. you're watching msnbc. with the spark cash card from capital one, olaf's pizza palace gets the most rewards of any small business credit card! pizza!!!!! [ garth ] olaf's small business earns 2% cash back on every purchase, every day! helium delivery. put it on my spark card! [ pop! ] [ garth ] why settle for less? great businesses deserve the most rewards! awesome!!! [ male announcer ] the spark business card from capital one. choose unlimited rewards with 2% cash back or double miles on every purchase, every day! what's in your wallet?

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from booking to baggage claim. we're raising the bar on flying and tomorrow we will up it yet again. he's not just the commander in chief, he's also the interrupter in chief. time now to grab some trail mix. >> there were a whole bunch of oil companies -- >> i had a question and the question was, how much did you cut them by? >> you want me to answer -- >> how much did you cut them by -- >> not true, governor romney. >> mitt romney bore the brunt of the interpretations at tuesday's presidential debate. they counted that all up and president obama cut him off 36 times. romney committed that offense 28 times, but it wasn't just the candidates interrupting each other. moderator candy crowley was also guilty a little bit of that. she cut off romney 23 times and the president 15. it seems both candidates are campaigning for the job of comedian in chief as well. they both got lots of laughs this week at the al smith dinner

in new york city, with some self-deprecating humor. >> ultimately, though, tonight's not about the disagreements that governor romney and i may have. it's what we have in common, beginning with our unusual names. actually, mitt is his middle name. i wish i could use my middle name. >> the campaign can require a lot of wardrobe changes. blue jeans in the morning, perhaps. a suit for a lunch fund-raiser. a sport coat for dinner, but it's nice to finally relax and to wear what ann and i wear around the house. >> that was enjoyable. coming up for you, we'll flash back to a night in 1973 when inside washington got tu turned upsidedown. tom brokaw's report on the saturday night massacre, ahead. -- that he's going through.

i think -- i think it's called romnesia. >> some say it's a cute phrase, but how effective will it really be? we'll take you to the war room, ahead. also, paul ryan was in pennsylvania today. that state's blue, right? well, can the keystone state be key for the romney campaign? we'll answer that. you're watching msnbc, the place for politics this saturday afternoon. mom's oven-baked tastes straight from the microwave. like oven-roasted chicken in a creamy alfredo sauce. marie callender's new comfort bakes. it's time to savor.

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oh, nice hands! chest bump. ugh! good job, man. nice! okay, halftime. now, this is my favorite play. oh! i'm wide open. oh, fumble. fumble. don't want to fumble any of these. [ male announcer ] share what you love, with who you love. kellogg's frosted flakes. it's up... and it's good! good?! they're grrreat! welcome back. here's a look at some of the top stories making news right now. a judge saying george zimmerman's lawyers can inspect trayvon martin's school records and his social media postings. the judge says zimmerman's lawyers need to know if martin had any violent tendencies. zimmerman is charged with second-degree murder in the death of trayvon martin. he's claiming self-defense. now back to politics. pennsylvania is reemerging as the state to watch, potentially even more important than florida in electoral math.

paul ryan just held a rally in pennsylvania this morning and you can see why. two polls in recent days show a tighter rate. quinnipiac university earlier this week had president obama at 50% and mitt romney at 46. and the mullenberg college morning call poll, also out this week, showed the president at 49 and mitt romney at 45. now, if mitt romney were to win pennsylvania, president obama's path to 270 would have to take a different turn, certainly. and what might that look like? let's bring in nathan gonzalez, deputy editor of the rothenberg report. nathan, you and i both know, typically this is the republican's fool's gold, right? it looks like it might go the other way, but never does. well, i shouldn't say never. what is the probability? this is the year that it may go red. >> right. well, we just finished doing a deep dive into the senate race in pennsylvania, which i think most people had been ignoring for most of the cycle, but democratic senator bob casey jr., there are also multiple public polls that show that he's

in a tighter race than expected. but in doing that, we are seeing some private polling that shows what some of the public polling is, is that mitt romney is within striking distance in pennsylvania. now, there are a couple dynamics. just a few minutes ago, you were talking about the state unemployment rate. now, the state unemployment rate in pennsylvania is higher than it is in ohio. it's higher than the national average. but i think we also should have the same caution that this is kind of like lucy and charlie brown with the football. they, you know, the democrats hold it out there and then she pulls it away at the last second. >> you don't think it's going to go red, is what you're saying? >> i think it's unlikely. i think it could be closer than what we expected. but i think what it symbolizes is a shift in the overall electoral map. instead of talking about the same eight swing states and maybe some of those red states coming back into play, we're talking about the same eight swing states and maybe some of those democratic states being less safe than we thought. and i think overall, that's not particularly good news for the president.

>> let's walk down that path a little bit further. if it were to happen, and we look at nbc's latest battleground map, if we do give pennsylvania to team romney here, then what are some of the scenarios that might result from that where romney will get to 270? >> well, i think if you add pennsylvania -- if you take away pennsylvania from the president's category, you're taking away 20 electoral votes. so you're going to need to win both ohio and florida, even though florida is bigger than pennsylvania. you have to put together big states to replace another big state. you can't just put it together with the scenario of new hampshire and iowa, nevada. you have to replace a large state with a large state. and so, you know, you could take the math and maybe put north carolina in the president's category, but overall, i think if the president is losing pennsylvania, he's going to lose almost all the other swing states, because those are much easier, i think, for republicans to grab. >> it will open up more scenarios for mitt romney, and right now the president has more scenarios to get to 270.

nathan gonzalez of the rothenberg political report, thank you for stopping by. >> no problem. thank you. the "reno gazette-journal" endorsed romney. yesterday "the denver post" came out for president obama. and in utah, the salt lake tribune endorsed president obama. it summed up its endorsement in three words, it said "too many mitts." joining me, richard goodstein and msnbc contributor robert traynham. robert is a former communications director as well for senator rick santorum. richard, start with you. the polls are still tight in nevada. we were talking about some of the papers there. when you look at these endorsements, what sort of effect might it have on the key undecided ca undecideds? >> well, richard, we've always known the polls were going to tighten to the end. this shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody who follows this new york. i think the impact of the endorsements is great in these big swing states like colorado and the tampa bay paper that you mentioned. and even the slap that mitt

romney got from this salt lake paper, his adopted home, where they said not only too many mitts, but they said, who is this guy? and how is it that somebody could have this many positions? that's something that's not just for the readers of that paper. utah is not a swing state. that's the kind of shorthand, in a paper of the place that he calls home, one of his homes, that will be used, i guarantee you, in ads run in the swing states, because it's a testimonial not from the obama campaign, but from somebody else saying just what the obama people are saying, which is that he doesn't stand for anything. and that's kind of shameful from somebody who's been in the public eye as much as he has. >> robert, will that resonate? >> well, newspaper endorsements do not make any difference on the national level. they do make a difference at the state level. but if you look at every single presidential race since 1960, which i just did, newspaper endorsements simply do not matter at the end of the day. that's number one.

number two, i take a look at the salt lake utah editorial there, and it's interesting. and what my friend on the other side did not mentions is that for the first two paragraphs, they mentioned mitt romney's executive experience, they praised his executive experience when it came to the olympics and so forth, and then, rightfully so, they did transition to his lack of principles, according to them. but at the end of the day, utah is going to go for governor romney. there's no question about it. at the end of the day, this is not about newspaper endorsements. this is about the economy. and when you take a look at every single poll, one that you just mentioned a few moments ago, richard, every single poll suggests that independents are not only leaning towards mitt romney, but they're at least open to this conversation. >> but, robert, they do have some influence here, robert, in certain areas, and all three of us know this quite well. there are swing counties that can swing the states. so this could be relevant wro, t

robert. >> we'll see. but at the end of the day, what's probably going to decide this race is southwestern ohio. it was a decider back in 2004. george w. bush won southwestern ohio by about 100,000 votes. if you look at all the political data, it looks like that's probably going to be the decider in this race as well. southwestern ohio, richard, is very conservative, it's very rural. they swing back and forth. there's a lot of reagan democrats there. the question -- and barack obama won that in 2008. the question is whether mitt romney can take that back from him in 2012. if, in fact, he can, and hold on to florida and maybe swing back virginia, he wins 270. >> robert, lacking all the way back to 1960. you've got some time on your hands, my friend. richard, the "tampa bay times" endorsed president obama. unemployment in florida was 8.7% in september, above the national average. so when you look at this richard, this would be a concern in states like this where the polls have clearly tightened? >> sure, look, we saw nationally that unemployment was down in 41

states. this was a report that came out just yesterday. yes, florida is slightly above the national average. i think the political scientist would tell you that people kind of think of it in two ways. not in terms of what's happening in their state, but they either hear the national number, which is trending down in a pretty steep way, or what's happening to them locally. look, housing starts are up in florida, foreclosure rates are down. the medicare issue is going to cut in a pretty big way in florida. there's a growing hispanic community that's noncuban, that seems to be tilting very, very heavily for the president. so, yes, obviously, unemployment is one of the factors. but i think there's a sense that's undeniable that things are trending in the right direction in terms of just the health of the economy and all the polls indicate it. when they're asked, do you think things will be better next year rather than this? right now, by pretty sizable margins, the answer is yes. >> so richard, are you saying it's off the table now, that voters aren't going to be

thinking about? >> look, if you're unemployed or if you have somebody that's unemployed in your family, that's very much an overarching issue. but the fact of the matter is, again, we've seen in history the trend line is what's matters. and if there's a sense of hope, which i think for even out of work floridians, there very much is, because they too are saying, yes, we think things will be better next year than this. and they realize, again, this is not just an idle choice here. they remember back to 2000. thought, how bad could things get if we go for george bush? we saw the answer to that, i'm afraid. >> we'll see if people actually do look back. and i'll throw this to robert. this is what the president was talking about in virginia yesterday. take a listen to this. >> i mean, he's changing up so much and backtracking and sidestepping. we've got -- we've got to name this condition that he's going through. i think -- i think it's called romnesia.

>> all right. well, robert, what do you think? is the key a lot of fish oil here? >> you know, elections are all about the future, richard. they really are about what the candidate's vision is for the next four years. and when you take a look at president obama's position over the last two debates, he really hasn't articulated what his vision is for the future. i've taken a look at the cross tabs on all the polls out there. and for the most part, the majority of the people out there are saying, i like this president, i actually want to vote for him, but i don't see where he's going to take -- >> but this is about mitt romney and his changes on issues. romnesia, according to what the president's using. >> and that's a perfect segue. and a lot of people are saying, you know what, i'm not exactly sure what i think about governor romney when it comes to the issues. but there's one thing that's very clear. he keeps saying over and over and over again for the next four years that i'm going to fix the economy. so maybe he does flip-flop on the issues, maybe he's a little bit, i don't know, but the point is i understand where he's going for the next four years and that he's resonating with the american people. >> there's a cure for romnesia.

it's two major surgeries. one is a backbone implant and the other is a conscious transplant and i don't mitt romney has the time to be in the hospital to overcome those in the next couple of weeks. that's what his problem is. >> i guess it depends on the fact if he has obama care or not. >> perhaps. >> robert traynham, richard goodstein, thank you both. talk to you a little bit later. up next, the issue of same-sex marriage is on the fast track to the supreme court. what will it mean if the high court strikes down the federal defense of marriage act? but first we take you back to the days of watergate and nbc's tom brokaw, circa 1973. our flashback is next. this is msnbc. [ scratching ] you're not using too much are you, hon? ♪ nope. [ female announcer ] charmin ultra soft is so soft you'll have to remind your family they can use less. charmin ultra soft is made with extra cushions that are soft and more absorbent. plus you can use four times less

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fire archibald cox, nixon fired his attorney general and deputy attorney general. it all came down to be known as the saturday night massacre. here's tom brokaw reporting from the white house that night. >> already tonight, white house sources are trying to focus our attention on the president's proposed compromise for the release of those watergate summaries and trying to divert our attention from the stunning developments here tonight. one white house source says the president's motive was solely to remove a constitutional confrontation as quickly and as thoroughly as possible without addressing himself to the point that the president may even have a more grave constitutional crisis on his hands. >> well, the constitutional question concerning the fate of the defense of marriage act could soon be decided by the u.s. supreme court. on thursday, the circuit court of appeals ruled that it violated the constitution.

doma defines marriage as being between one man and one woman. so what happens when doma gets to the high court? we're joined by nyu constitutional law professor, kenji osheena. thanks for being here. >> great to be here, richard. >> what's going to happen? >> i think the supreme court is almost definitely going to happen. you rarely see a federal appellate court striking down one without review. >> if it takes it, what's going to happen? >> i think it's going to get struck down. >> 5-4, huh? >> 5-4, maybe even 6-3, because a lot of the conservatives actually are adamant state's rights individuals, and so if you think about this as a federal statute, that trenches on state domain, you might pick up one or two of those justices as well. >> so marriage equality proponents are watching this very, very carefully. what is it that the appellate court, in this case, found objectionable here? >> well, what was so striking

about this case, compared to any prior appellate court decision is the court i applied what's known as heightened scrutiny, saying that it draws a higher level of review from the course, akin to that drawn by sex or jrnd-based classifications. that really puts a burden on the government, and therefore it will be much harder for the government to prevail. >> and what would the lower burden have meant? >> traditionally, any conceivable justification that would pass a laugh test on the government side would pass muster. so a colleague of mind is fond of clipping all you need to do is to frame your legislation in grammatically complete sentences. we all know there are decisions that are made deep in that grammar requirement. >> here's a key part of the second circuit's decision. it says, because doma is an unprecedented breach of long-standing deference to federalism that singles out same-sex marriage as the only inconsistency, among many, in state law that requires a federal rule to achieve uniformity, the rationale

premised on uniformity is not an exceedingly persuasive justification for doma. so when you look at that language, how does that affect the way the supreme court looks at this? >> i think it could affect it. >> that's where it's at. >> that's where the burden is coming from. when they talk about uniformity, the federal governments traditionally defer to state law with respect to marriage. here the federal government has not referred to state definitions of marriage. edy windsor was married for all state purposes, but when her partner died, her partner of her 4 years is treated as a legal stranger. >> in ten seconds, what could stop this? >> i don't think that there's much that's going to stop this. i think that the bipartisan legal adviser group has an extraordinary lawyer, but i don't think even he is going to be able to pull this off. >> thank you so much. always great having you here any day, but especially on a saturday with us today. thank you so much. >> thanks for having me, richard. >> you bet. just two days before a presidential debate focused on foreign policy, new documents

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republican congressman peter king of new york, who heads the house homeland security committee today is asking the white house to turn over more intelligence relating to the benghazi attacks. meanwhile, gop vice presidential candidate paul ryan told a wisconsin radio station friday to expect romney to make libya an issue again in monday's debate. >> it would be a tragedy in and of itself if it was just benghazi. the problem is, look around the world, turn on your tv, and what we see in front of us is the absolute run unraveling of the obama administration's foreign policy. and i'm excited we're going to have a chance to talk about that on monday. >> back with us in washington, anne kornblut, deputy national political editor for "the washington post." and here in new york, adam sorenson, an associate editor at "time" magazine. thank you both for coming back.

first to you, anne. the "l.a. times" today reporting this, "the assault on the u.s. diplomatic mission in benghazi last month appears to have been an opportunistic attack rather than a long-planned operation, and intelligence agencies have found no evidence that it was ordered by al qaeda." we're seeing the facts move back and forth as the days move on. how should both candidates handle this? >> and there have been questions too, about whether there was the existence of a protest, either one that was ahead of the attacks or perhaps one that came later. so i think we've seen both candidates talk more gingerly as the days have gone on about it. obviously, president obama had a good moment in his debate in the town hall debate last week about it. mitt romney hasn't focused on it so much in the last week, but as you played paul ryan's comments, there's no reason to think that he won't on monday night. but he's going to have to be careful. he obviously came out of the gate swinging in a way that seemed a bit premature at the time. both of them have gone back and

forth, being sort of in the right, if you will. and i think there's no chance we're going to know exactly what happened by monday. so i think they're both going to have to try to couch it in terms of what we know now, and not get too far ahead of themselves. >> so, adam, you've seen what i just read to anne. and you know, we're getting reports on both sides of the argument, political argument, that's being made by the candidates at the moment. where does it favor -- who does it favor at the moment, if either of the two? >> sure. i think it's right that obama had a very good moment in the town hall debate. he talked about it not being a political issue, that he's the one who has to greet the caskets when they come home. that being said, i think the issue overall is quite bad for him. and it's not at all surprising that romney would want to bring it up again on monday night. simply because it's -- you know, foreign policy is always tied to the president. and whoever or wherever the fault lies in this, i think that people do hold the president accountable for what happens with americans overseas. and, overall, you saw his foreign policy approval ratings

drop in the wake of the attack, so i think it does benefit romney to keep bringing it up. >> net/net, where do you think it stands right now? because we got reporting yesterday from the ap about the cia, we have more information from the "l.a. times." we seem to be getting something every day or so. >> as far as the politics go, i think that any time you're talking about something whether obama had control over it or not, how much he knew about the requests for more security or what they were, or how up-front they were about what happened in the days after. i think it's bad for him to keep having to talk about this. this was a lapse and four americans died. that's bad. there's no way to spin that. >> to you, anne. when we look at what had happened during the debate and how candy crowley had came out and stated that which the president had stated correctly, and also said that which governor romney had said correctly, when you look at that, now that we have several days to kind of digest this, does either candidate look good from that interaction? have they come out okay?

>> well, i do think that president obama certainly appeared, let's say, stronger than he has in the first debate, and i would say, arguably as strong as -- >> because social media seems to be saying it's okay for romney now, several days out, where it was not the case the day of. >> well, i was just going to say, i think that, you know, if you read the entirety of president obama's statement from the rose garden, the one that candy mentioned in her fact checking, it's not as though president obama came out and said, this was an act of terrorism. but, of course, we don't actually know to what extent it was an act of terrorism yet. so he called it -- he condemned it as being part of any act of terror that we would condemn around the world. >> no acts of terror, is what he said. >> no acts of terror. but that was not his opening gambit in the rose garden. so i think on both sides, we're going to -- look, this last debate was not actually a foreign policy debate. this was a moment, this was in response to a question from a member of the audience. i think we're going to have an even more fruitful conversation about this after monday night. >> yeah.

we'll see how they're able to articulate things that we don't deal with each and every day and make it digestible so voters can use it once they go to the voting booth. thank you for your time. up next, the fact check you need to hear to be ready for monday's debate. this is msnbc, the place for politics. sweetie, you have to scrub it first. no you don't, honey. yes, you do! don't! i've washed a few cupcake tins in my day... oh, so you're a tin expert now. whoa nelly! hi, kitchen counselor here. he's actually right... with cascade complete. see cascade complete pacs work like thousands of micro-scrubbing brushes to help power away tough foods even in corners and edges. so, i was right, right? i've gotta run. more dishwasher brands in north america recommend cascade.