belief or relief that at least the election didn't end up in a situation where obama won the electoral volt but romney got the popular vote. i agree that would have been bad. it would have denied the democrat the clear mandate. the implication from the right wing seemed to have been had the republican candidate won the popular vote, there would be trouble of some undefined type. what the heck did that mean? yes, we've had to put up with this ridiculous secession petitions out there, the texas version having been signed by over 100,000 people since election day, but could the right have gone further had it been armed with a popular vote victory? there does seem to be a difference in the two parties. when al gore lost 12 years ago, he ignored his 600,000 vote victory in the popular vote. he just learned to live with the irony. republicans have carefully forgotten this bit of history, but i have real doubts those on the angry demanding right would have been so quietly o beet yebt to constitutional law. there's something out there on the right right now that is still uneasy with this defeat.

searching desperately for an explanation of how the conservative caterpillar they had right there in their hands became the liberal butterfly now happily fluttering and, yes, defiantly free of them, and they don't like it one bit. i'm joined by rich hertz burg and "the huffington post" howard fine marn. rick, i wonder about this. this sense they have of almost royal ruling class identity with the white house. what do you make of it and their attitude before and after the election? they really weren't going to lose and they haven't really in some strange way because they got the house. >> yeah. well, this attitude has built up over time over the years. they didn't really think bill clinton was legitimate because ross perot they thought cost him the election. they thought that obama's original election was a freak on account of bush being such a terrible president and they were not equipped to deal with this defeat and this was a real

defeat because it was a defeat across the board for the republican party. yes, they kept the house, but guess who got more votes? democratic candidates of the house got more votes than republican candidates of the house, and these -- it may not make any difference constitutionally, but it makes a moral difference. >> and they like to hang on it. i think there's more to their sense of entitlement. shortly after the romney ticket lost, 26 states and one just over 47% of the vote. in other words, did worse than john kerry in 2004. paul ryan denies that the president earned a mandate. let's listen. >> the president wins 330-some electoral votes, every battleground state with the exception of north carolina. does barack obama now have a mandate? >> i don't think so because they also re-elected the house republicans. so whether people intend it or not, we have divided government. >> so you don't think there's a mandate here? >> i don't because then they would have put nancy pelosi in charge of the house of

representatives. see, i think the ideas we talked about, i think they're popular ideas. >> anyway, it turns out paul ryan is wrong. when you look at the raw vote, voters cast about 400,000 votes more for house democrats than for republicans and with votes still being counted, as rick said, that's expected to go to a million vote majority. my question is why are they getting into this whole thing? when we have elections, i worked for tip o'neill, tip never came out and said but we have a 40-seat majority in the house and we'll have a bigger one after reagan gets re-elected. the presidential election is where the mandate goes. >> first, i agree with rick that this began with bill clinton. the sense of no legitimacy to a democratic president. that's where it started. that's where it's continuing. i think also that the way politics is divided today makes it almost required that people deny the legitimacy of the other side. and beyond that i think the republicans kind of view themselves as a kind of ruling class that are entitled by

virtue of their success, by the virtue of money, by the power of money to buy anything that they should be able to continue to buy these elections. >> i think -- rick, what do you make of this sort of north star they go by that they believe this is a center right country. i don't know whether the house believes 9 old founding father's notion that somehow white men of property rule the country and that's their notion of equality because somehow in their minds they think, oh, it must be a republican, all my friends are, the guys i work with, the women i know, they're all republicans. this country must be republican. i can't believe these results. >> well, there may be something to it in the sense that depe depending on how you ask polling questions, you can get the answer you want. you can get an answer that tells you it's a center right country, you can get an answer that tells you it's a center left country. but in this business of what would have happened if obama had lost the popular vote and still won the white house, i think you would have had a very different reaction from obama, and i think that in the year 2000 if al gore

had been able -- if the shoe had been on the other foot and gore had become president while bush got the popular vote, he would have responded differently, he would have acknowledged that, and he would have wanted to do something about it. that has to change at some point, and it's going to have to change after -- probably after both sides' objections are gored. >> you think we're going to get a change in our constitution to make it a popular vote? >> you don't need it to be the constitution. there's the national popular vote initiative that would do it through the states. >> yeah. >> you can do it without changing the constitution and see how you like it. >> interesting. the states could just simply decide to go by the popular vote of the country. anyway, the chorus of republicans predicting a romney win was loud. michael barone predicted romney would win. peggy noonan said all signs pointed to a romney win. listen to this.

>> in florida t"the times" says obama will win by one but their sample has seven points more democrats than republicans so that poll is off by a factor of eight. so instead of obama winning by one, romney would win florida by seven. in virginia they have obama winning by two. but they have eight points more democrats than republicans and historically there's one point more republican than democrat. that's off by a factor of nine. romney wins ohio -- wins virginia by seven. >> so you are standing by your prediction of a romney landslide? >> absolutely. romney will win this election by five to ten points in the popular vote and will carry more than 300 electoral votes. >> we're talking about a real phenomenon here. you have people like neil newhouse, not just right wing crazy people, who were saying this election was in the bag. it was going to be a glorious victory, overwhelming victory.

smart people all saying overwhelming. what was their world view that convinced them of that? i think a lot of that leads to this defiance. we still have the house that's a counter mandate. there's something strange going on here and it's going to matter as we get into these cliff talks. >> well, it's because i don't think the republicans want toed a mity to themselves what the real problems are. there are two as i see it. one is the cultural side. the country keeps changing on issues such as abortion and other things. >> we're going to get to that today. >> we're becoming more liberal on those matters. >> same-sex. >> they're stuck with those traditional issues. they don't know how to get away from it. the other thing is money. the other thing is that people like chris ruddy, who i think is a responsible, interesting conservative, runs news max, says that the reason why mitt romney lost is because people didn't like him. but what chris doesn't understand is that the reason they didn't like mitt romney is that he seemed only to care about money. he seemed only to care about profit. and that he didn't have any

communal since to him that could be applied to government. the republicans don't see that a pure obsession with free market economics comes across to everybody else in the country who isn't them as too cold-blooded, as too cold-hearted. and the fact that with almost 8% unemployment, with the people thinking that the country is going in the wrong direction, that they still voted for barack obama makes it an even bigger rejection of the republicans and conservatives than they are willing to admit to themselves. >> just going back, this love the founding fathers has gotten to a point of not reference for their courage and standing up to the british empire and putting their lives on the line and being enlightened given to they were. but the notion that the men are white men of property and that's really what romney ran on, white men of property. he didn't say it. i don't think he put it in any words. but look who he was rallying to

as, you know, as howie just pointed out, that seemed to be the rallying cry, men of property, join together, defend the wagon train against the onslaught of the others. it seemed to be what they were doing in this campaign. >> well, let's be fair to the founding fathers. for their time they were pretty darn progressive, and the idea that, for example, that they drew up the constitution as a mandate for small government, just the exact reverse of the truth. we had small government under the articles of confederation. the framers went for big government and, yeah, they gave small government arguments when they wrod the federalist papers like you always try to appeal to the arguments of the other side, but they just don't understand what the framers were up to and they worshipped them rather than trying to imitate them. >> they weren't thinking of sally hemings' vote, i'm sure of that. >> the other thing is when you listen to the explanations that the republicans and

conservatives give for why they lost, they always say, well, the black community and the hispanic community voted overwhelmingly for the president. >> you aurban vote. >> as if those votes don't count as much as everybody else's vote and if that's some kind of explanation, some kind of explanation for the weird phenomenon of the fact that the republicans didn't win. there was this extraterrestrial force out there of african-americans and hispanics. well, d u6789 uh, that's the country. >> this has no bearing on the republican party. the last reverence to the black auxiliary is hitler. during the '36 olympics we had jesse owens and a couple other guys and they said they had their auxiliary out there. coming up, could we see the first signs of the gop splitting apart on abortion? this is big stuff. john mccain said the issues

hurting republicans, it's time for them to drop the issue and leave it alone. does it mean stop talking about it, stop making a litmus test of the presidential candidate? this is big stuff. plus, dumping grover. that's a nice thought. a number of republicans are finally putting limits on their no tax pledge and telling grover norquist to get lost. but remember, there's only one of those people in the houpts. keeping home and change alive. president obama's aits are hoping to keep the campaign going and use their new leverage at the polls to bin the fight for higher taxes against the wealthy. this is "hardball," the place for politics. bp has paid over twenty-three billion dollars to help those affected and to cover cleanup costs. today, the beaches and gulf are open, and many areas are reporting their best tourism seasons in years. and bp's also committed to america. we support nearly 250,000 jobs

and invest more here than anywhere else. we're working to fuel america for generations to come. our commitment has never been stronger. get ready for some more partisan agendas in the state governments across the country. that's because some january at least 37 states will be under single party control. 37 of them. with one party holding both

houses of state legislatures and the governorship. and that's the largest number of states under single party control in 60 years. 24 of those 37 states will be controlled by republicans and 13 under democratic control. we'll be right back. johan comes in a porcelain vessel, crafted with care by a talented blonde from sweden. ♪ smooth, rich, never bitter, gevalia. and his new boss told him two things -- cook what you love, and save your money. joe doesn't know it yet, but he'll work his way up from busser to waiter to chef before opening a restaurant specializing in fish and game from the great northwest. he'll start investing early, he'll find some good people to help guide him, and he'll set money aside from his first day of work to his last, which isn't rocket science. it's just common sense. from td ameritrade. i heard you guys can ship ground for less than the ups store. that's right. i've learned the only way to get a holiday deal is to camp out.

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welcome back to politics and "hardball." abortion politics, particularly anti-abortion politics, has been a guiding principle of republican politics for decades. yesterday senator john mccain stepped back from the al jazeera and seem -- edge and seemed to say it was time for the republicans to rethink their position. here is mccain on fox. let's listen. >> i think we have to have a bigger tent. that's no doubt about it. we've got to give them something to be for, and as far as young women are concerned, absolutely i don't think anybody like me -- i can state my position on abortion, but to -- other than that leave the issue alone. >> when you say leave the issue

alone, you would allow -- you would say freedom of choice? >> i would allow people to have those opinions and respect those opinions. i'm proud of my pro-life position and record, but if someone disagrees with me, i respect your views. >> how do you move away from a pro-life stance that threatened to pull apart a pro-life coalition? republican congressman james langford of oklahoma is opposed to to abortion rights. john walsh is from say lone. do you think it's essential for the republicans to keep a strong pro-life plank in your party platform and may keep it as a litmus test for any presidential or vice presidential candidate? >> half of americans are very pro-life. to say half of your americans your opinions don't count, wouldn't equate to representation of them. this is a very, very important

issue. yes, i do think you keep it in. i think you continue the conversation, but you do it in a way that's appropriate. chris, if you look at last year or the last two years voting in the 112th congress, there have been 11 votes on abortion in the house of representatives. 1,557 total votes, 11 of those dealt with abortion. this is not even 1% of our votes that have been taken in this session of congress. so say this has been a big issue, i think it's been pretty fair, actually. >> let's take a look at your platform. i will get to joan in a minute. let's look at the platform language. this is in the platform you agreed to as a party this year. it takes a pretty tough view. it reads, quote, we support a human life amendment to the constitution and endorse legislation to make clear that the 14th amendment's protections apply to unborn children. you're basically saying from the moment of conception that the fetus or unborn child has the rights of life, liberty, and property under the 14th amendment which cannot be denied except through due process of law. you're basically establishing personhood in your party

platform. do you believe that is something that pro-choice people could rally behind? could you ever have a republican who was the candidate for president who was pro-choice? what are you really saying? john mccain said clearly no longer make it a partisan issue. drop it from the public debate. are you saying keep it as a debate between republicans and democrats? >> i doubt that republicans would put someone into the white house that is pro-choice on that because there's such a strong family value among republicans. we look into the womb and we see two legs, two arms, two eyes, a nose, and a beating heart, unique dna and we say that's a person. so this is not anti-choice. this is pro-life. this is we see that as a child and we see every single child of inherent value and should have the opportunity to be able to live. >> what are the rights of a pregnant woman? >> what are the rights of a pregnant woman? the pregnant woman has the same rights everybody else does but so does the child. this is splitting up americans and saying an american that have very small doesn't have the same rights as americans taller.

no matter what your height or weight as an american you have unique rights and responsibilities under our constitution and we want to honor life and honor people. we don't think that's irrational. >> i follow you very rational. don't question me. i follow your reasoning precisely. joan, following his reasoning that you're a person the moment after conception, if you use an iud you're a murderer. >> right. >> this is the language they use and they choose it. >> it's not just abortion. it's certain forms of birth control would be murder and it would be criminalized. you know, i'm pro-choice, i'm very much pro-family and pro-life and americans are divided on this issue, aument there is a majority of people who think abortion should be legal, at least in some circumstances. >> what about john mccain's statement yesterday? weren't you amazed for him to just drop that from the airplane to lighten the load bail basically? >> they are on a course to demographic extinction. they're losing women. they're losing latinos and asians and african-americans. they're losing young people.

other than that they're doing great. you know, so there have been a lot of proposals for what they have to do to get some of those groups back, and i think choice is one issue. i would say though with senator mccain, he talks about being open to other views. it's not necessarily that we won't continue to fight to make abortion -- >> he didn't sound like he would not make it a partisan issue. gee sounded like it but he left himself wiggle room. >> let's talk about this congressman because you're the republican. we're talking about your platform. if somebody is of similar mind to joan walsh who agrees with your party on fiscal issues but disagrees on social issues, should they vote for a president who has promised to get rid of roe v. wade? >> it's the same thing a lot of americans have different issues that they vote on. a lot of people vote on fiscal issues on jobs issues, on economic issues. the basics of it. the kitchen table things. that's pretty common. some people have their first priority is a life issue.

they say doesn't matter the economy if you don't ever have life -- >> why should a choice person vote for the continuation of this republican platform which says from the moment of conception that unborn child or fetus is a citizen with rights of property, life and liberty? >> there are plenty of people that are pro-choice republicans that are out there just like there are plenty of pro-life democrats out there because they're going to pick their own preferences. i would disagree this party is demographically falling apart when 49%, 51% election just occurred. you look at the house of representatives and you have this lrge percentage of republicans there. we still are a very divided nation. >> it's going to be about 47% and most americans voted in the house races, most americans did vote for democrats because of gerrymandering your party got a big majority but that's because of gerrymandering. >> it's because the democrats waste a lot of votes in big city democratic districts. 9d 9% of the vote.

>> i want to say something very important about abortion. most women who have abortions are mothers. it's sadly a kitchen table issue . a lot of women are making the choice because they can't afford to bring another child in the world. it's a tough choice but there's nobody better able to make that decision. our public policy has to be pro choice because there's nobody else that can make that decision besides the women and the people she trusts. otherwise you are making her a criminal, the doctors criminals. it's just untenable. we're not going back to the world where we used to live where -- >> i think, joan, here is something you would agree with and i think the congressman won't agree with. this is the exact words john mccain used yesterday. i don't think anybody like me, meaning a male of a certain age, i can state my position on abortion, but to -- other than that leave the issue alone. in other words, he doesn't want to be heard on the issue really in terms of any debate over the platform. he basically thinks the party ought to stop fighting over it as a party, but you, sir, don't

agree with him. >> i would say there are 750,271 people in the fifth congressional district of oklahoma male and female. and to say i'm a male that i can't represent the female opinion in my district is incorrect. there are hundreds of thousands of females in my district that are very pro-life and very passionate about this issue and they deserve a voice in congress as well. so does that child. i understand the plight of the woman that's pregnant but i also understand the plight of the child. >> well said for your point of view. last word, joan? >> i think this is going to be an issue that splits the party. the republicans have pandered to people who are very extreme. we have that language in the platform that most people didn't know about until todd akin made his ridiculous remarks about legitimate rape. this is not going to be an easy one to finesse. >> i think the seams in the republican party are starting to show. i'm not saying that -- the seams are showing. congressman, it's great having you on. >> i would definitely disagree, but thank you. >> joan, you always are an

articulate spokesman for a point of view i often say. ex next, what is vice president biden in a bathing suit in nantucket? you know you like it to be in 70 when you go in the ocean. this is about half that. this is "hardball," the place for politics. with the spark miles card from capital one, thor gets great rewards for his small business! your boa! [ garth ] thor's small business earns double miles on every purchase, every day! ahh, the new fabrics. put it on my spark card. ow. [ garth ] why settle for less? the spiked heels are working.

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back to "hardball." now to the "sideshow." first bring on thanksgiving on nantucket. how about a cold dive in the ocean? that's how vice president joe biden spent his thanksgiving a.m. they tack part in the annual cold turkey plunge, the fund-raiser for the local library. cold might be an understatement for the water temperature in nantucket this time of year is about 40-something. for a less festive side of the holidays, the american family association which i think is on the right, has released its annual naughty/nice list of companies that celebrate

christmas only at the cash register. as a rule of thumb, if a company winds up on the naughty list, it's because it doesn't use the word christmas in its christmas sales pitches. the against christmas list includes barnes & noble, i actually love that company, office depot, and banana republic. the rankings doesn't reflect the companies' charitable giving during the holidays. barnes & noble, for example, runs a holiday book drive. next, what's wrong with this family picture? how about everyone holding a gun? that's right. arizona's scotdale gun club is offering the opportunity to have photos taken with guns in hand. >> what the we're trying to do is add a little bit of holiday spirit into people's second amendment rights to be able to carry and purchase firearms. it's something that basically we just provide as a service to our customers and members. we do go all through the safety precautions, remove the firing pins, no fingers on the

triggers. we do a completely free firearms safety class for families. >> this may have been one time you have to go to a safety training camp to get a family photo taken. finally, this is amazing stuff. finally, has president obama secretly plotting to run for a third term? investment adviser porter stansbury thinks so. >> if you look at people who ran for president for three terms, it's teddy roosevelt, franklin delano roosevelt, and obama and they all have certain things in common. they're all populist, spent a lot of money on people. the other thing they had in common was in 1901 there was on ail boom. in 1930 there was an oil boom from east texas, and right now going on in america is the biggest renaissance in oil since 1930. it's the shale boom. and all this oil is producing huge new revenues for the feds and also enormous power for obama. of course, he's going to use that power and all that leverage

to propel himself into a third term. >> of course, stansberry's production has one gaping hole, the 22nd amendment. quote, no person where shall elected to the office of the president more than twice. we heard a lot of anti-obama's conspiracies. this could be the tipping point. up next, a growing number of reasons say they're willing to end their no tax pledge to grover norquist. the trouble is, only one is in the house of representatives where the deal with the white house will be made. that's ahead. this is "hardball," the place for politics. troducing the new dell xps 12. part of a whole new line of tablets from dell. it's changing the conversation. ♪

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to roll over my old 401(k) into a fidelity ira. man: okay, no problem. it's easy to get started; i can help you with the paperwork. um...this green line just appeared on my floor. yeah, that's fidelity helping you reach your financial goals. could you hold on a second? it's your money. roll over your old 401(k) into a fidelity ira and take control of your personal economy. this is going to be helpful. call or come in today. fidelity investments. turn here. good afternoon. i'm taylor mathson with your cnbc market wrap. the dow falls 42, the s&p loses 2, and the nasdaq added 9.

shares of ebay jumped nearly 5% on expectations of a very busy cyber monday. online sales are expected to total $1.5 billion today. that's up almost 20% from last year. and yahoo! hit a 2 1/2 year high of $19 a share earlier before falling back slightly. goldman sachs raised his price target on that long time beleaguered stock to $24 a share. that's it from cnbc, first in business worldwide. now back to "hardball." ♪ welcome back to "hardball." anti-tax crusader grover norquist has been called the most powerful man in washington but is his influence on the wane?

>> i'm not obligated on the pledge. made tennesseans aware, i was just elected, the only thing i'm honoring is the oft i take when i'm sworn in this january. >> when you're $16 trillion in debt, the only pledge we should be making to each other is to avoid becoming greece and republicans should put revenue on the table. i will violate the pledge, long story short, for the good of the country, only if democrats will do entitlement reform. >> a pledge you signed 20 years ago, 18 years ago is for that congress. for instance, if i were in congress in 1941, i would have signed the -- supported a declaration of war against japan. i'm not going to attack jan today. the world has changed. >> that's a hell of a comparison. this morning norquist responded. let's listen. >> they all said that two years ago when we wereaing over the debt ceiling limits. so their position hasn't changed, and during the debt ceiling limit we cut spending,

we didn't raise taxes. so other republicans did not listen to peter king or these others. >> and this guy is a political lone shark. the majority of americans want to see tax rates go up on the rich but will norquist convince enough republicans it's better to dig in their heels than to reach a compromise? tom coburn is the republican senator from oklahoma and joe klein is a columnist for "time." senator, i don't want to abuse your presence. my children think you're the greatest. i have a couple kids, one who worked on the debt commission and another one who just loves you for some reason. let's find out why. it seems to me if you look at the numbers, just arithmetic here, right now the government is taking in 15.7% of the gdp in the current fiscal year and spending 22.9% of the gdp. common sense tells us if we're going to get to 20, it seems like getting maybe to 20 maybe some liberals want to bid more, conservatives want to bid less. you have to come in both directions. your thoughts? >> i agree.

the problem, chris, is we haven't had long-term thinkers in congress for a long time, and if you really look at it, the last 30 years we've lived off the next 30. i think the question is any combination that gets us out of the problem and onto a road of recovery in our economy and recovery of the future for our kids is a good combination. but the point has to be, there's no question we can have the rich pay more, but that won't solve our problem, and with that comes negatives. the real problem is you got an entitlement system that's out of whack, and the demographics are exaggerating that, and you've had discretionary spending increases. you know, the budget of this country this year is twice what it was 11 years ago, and a good portion of that is discretionary. some of it, $100 billion a year is the war, but the rest of the government has grown. so we have to do both. and we have to make sure that

whatever we do does not hurt us but gets us on the way to recovery. >> let me get to joe klein on the politicings of this. my contention is unless the liberal caucus led by nancy pelosi, a huge majority of democrats who are hard core lib ralts, unless they see teeth marks in the neck of eric cantor and boehner, unless they see the president has really gone in there and raised taxes on the rich, done something significant, maybe not the 39.6% but something that clearly bothers those people, she's not giving anything from her end. you've got to be tough on the tax front if you're going to get any action really along entit entitlement people. that's my view. >> i think that that's true, although i think what you're going to have here is a centrist coalition where the republicans in the house are going to drop their tea party supporters, and the democrats may have to drop some of their more extreme -- you know -- >> does this get you 218? does that get you 218?

>> of course. boehner could have gotten there if he'd been willing to drop the tea party two years ago. i think that you'll see a small uptick in marginal rates, but you're going to satisfy haggling. this is the return of politics, and by the way, you have been saying there's only one house republican who is for this. you know, pete king just said it, but scott rydel from virginia took a courageous stand last year and defied grover norquist and there are others. cantor is wavering now and i think the and writing is on the wall. >> is this going to have to come through the leadership, this deal on revenues to basically challenge norquist and the rigidity, senator, or can it be done around the edges where you have 100 votes from both sides of the aisle and 50 votes from a combination of the democrats and republicans in the senate? does it have to go through mcconnell, cantor, boehner, et

cetera? >> there has to be a compromise. i disagree with you on rates because i think rates ultimately hurt us. reforming the tax code where the wealthy actually pay more would actually help us collect revenues and also stimulate the economy, and we shouldn't lose sight of that because we did that under reagan with tip o'neill and several others. we actually accomplished some great things for our country where we had economic growth in excess of 4.8% for over four years. so we shouldn't lose sight of the fact -- i don't care which way it comes. but i think the important thing is to protect all the things that are true. it is true we have a demographic problem and an entitlement problem. it is true some of the very wealthy are well-protected in terms of the tax code. we need to eliminate that. it is true there's going to come a point in time where we can't borrow any more money and interest rates are going to skyrocket. so we need to merge all three of those, we need to leave our hats in terms of our partisanship outside and come in and solve the problems for the country. >> i agree with you on the

arithmetic. joe, that is the problem. we're talking demographics here, not democrat versus republican but younger versus older. we are going to have so many older people depending on these programs. that's going to be tough for the young people to pay enough in payroll taxes to meet the needs of people in their 70s and 80s. >> obama care is going to be the law of the land. if we have universal health insurance, if anybody is covered, you can raise the retirement age for medicare. then you can have a system where you can go up to 70 years old if, if the republicans cooperate and really force a system of health care exchanges, these health care super stores where you have real competition and you can drive down the premiums that are charged to individuals and small businesses. i mean, we have a real

opportunity here. this is a great moment and, you know, i congratulate the senator for the pioneering work that he's done on this issue in the past. >> you know, we have to go but, senator, i want to congratulate you for voting for simpson bowles. you and people like dick durbin, i have tremendous respect for you to stick your neck out and say something a lot of politicians won't do. it isn't perfect but it's where we have to go. thank you so much for coming on. senator tom coburn, who again my kids seem to love for some reason. thank you very much for coming on, and joe klein of "time" magazine. up next, can president obama turn his voters into fighters? this will be fascinating. i found out how great the ground game was in florida. can he put this ground game to work to fight the fiscal cliff? the "hardball" story on that one is coming up right now, the place for politics. with the ability to improve roi through seo all by cob. and you...rent from national.

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well, we're back. republicans have always mocked the president's experience as a community organizer. remember those laugh lines back in 2008 at the convention? here they are again. >> he worked as a community organizer. what? >> i guess a small town mayor is sort of like a community organizer except that you have actual responsibilities. >> as you see the president's experience as a community organizer when he got out of law school helped him mr. obuild on the most impressive ground teams. the president's team wants to use that energy in the current

fiscal cliff debate. quote, mr. obama's aides are trying to harness the passions that returned him to the white house hoping to pressure republicans in congress to accept tax increases on the wealthy. joy reid is managing editor of thegrio.com. she's at least as smart as i am, which is not an accolade, it's a fact, and she's much younger. okay. whey found out this weekend and you know this better than i, i enjoy your report on this, the obama campaign wasn't some coupe by ia number. it was real, it was people meeting people, getting points for moum contacts you made with voters. they knew a certain number of contacts led to a probability of people voting. can you turn that machine into something that can get the right kind of deal?

>> i think the president spent a year and a half developing a gigantic infrastructure that really came out on election day. and he did that -- >> human. >> through these kinds of also the campaign that brought those people out and central to that argument was that we need an economy that works for everyone, that people need to pay their fair share. >> so the key element of that, joy, is that there be tax fairness and the people at the top, who now get a tax break of 5% should not get that anymore because they don't need it. >> right. absolutely. even going back to what neera was talking about, if you lived in florida or ohio, the key states in 2008 and 2012, they never left. they were i mbedded. the trick is going to be if the

president and his team can solve this conundrum for democrats where they come out strong in presidential years and then fades away which leaves the opening for midterm elections -- >> you don't like that either, do you? >> it's a big bug-a-boo seeing minority voters go away. >> let's put the shoe where it belongs here, on the president's foot. leaders have to lead. >> right. >> he did get everybody to go vote. he gave enough good speeches but if anybody says his policies are what people got him to vote is where i'm at. secondly, the vicious personal attacks of his opponents, that helped a lot, too. people said, i'm not going to be screwed out of my vote. but what should he he do, joy -- you're not supposed to be coaching the guy but what should he do in the next days and weeks to arm and weaponize, basically, the public support that he has in the grassroots? >> i think the term bully pullpit is over used.

. the first time he was all about getting the policies done but he didn't seem to like to do the policy. he's got the infrastructure to keep the neighbor to neighbor going in swing states, places like virginia. >> neera, you're part of that world, the activist world. do you think he will do this or do you think he will sit with boehner and watch in the back room? >> i expect over the next several weeks, unless we have a deal i am nenltly, which i don't think we have, the president will get out there. >> i always interrupt. you know what is missing, health care. if he had gotten the people out on the streets, bring the auto workers, get everybody down here and never had a big rally. >> and i think he learned from that and the payroll tax debate and they've learned and we've all learned that you have to get the american people on your side, that people on this issue agree with him.

you know, you have people here speaking about rate tax cuts and the american people agree whole heartedly with the president on this issue and their feeling is it's time for the wealthy to pay their fair share and we can have a deal. this was central to the general election. >> let's look at the poll screens where we put numbers up. look at what the exit polls show. 47% were clear, they said they wanted to raise the tax rate on the wealthiest americans. it's just about half. another 13% says raise it on everybody. only 35% said they don't want tax at all. your thoughts, joy, it's not a majority but it's there. the fact is, the democrats -- i think you're dead right. i think if there was -- this person back in the white house rather than the other person was this issue of tax equity. >> it was an issue of tax equity. it was very important to his base that he get the rates up. he's got to go to virginia where

eric cantor has to face re-election in two years. >> he's wobbling. >> and you've got to keep the pressure on. because the cross-pressure on people like cantor and boehner. he's going to have to keep the pressure on them. >> there's a bunch of them out there, have a little rally. >> florida. he should be going to florida, ohio. these are states where republicans said they were going to win and they lost and the president has a strong argument to make right now which is, just fresh off his victory, this is what he didn't have in his first term. the fiscal cliff allows him to make an argument -- >> ladies, 47% of the country voted for country. only 1% gets the benefit of all of these tax cuts. >> i know. >> that's 46% that can steal from the other side. >> thank you. happy holidays. you're coming around this time of year. it's a nice time of year. when we return, the republican assumption that they have a right to rule.

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let me finish tonight where i started. what does it mean when a group of people believe they have a right to rule? i'm talking about a ruling class. back alt our founding, all men created equal had a couple of caveats, it meant men, not women, white men of property,

not the workers depended on workers hiring them, not the 47% in that day. we're here in the 21st century with a group of americans that still rally to the thinking of the founding fathers. the caveats, the exceptions to the equality, the very limited notion of who is to be included in the ruling of the country, white men of property. i don't know how many people say this or openly think about it this way anymore, but why do, why did the romney folks feel that this is their country to rule? there must be some unknown aspect that renders it meaningless to them. you must think about this. because this is the reason why we saw what we saw in the months of the election, the effort to support the minority vote, the giant billboards warning them of felony arrests and why the white working class through an endless

on onslaught against the working. that's it for now. "politicsnation" with al sharpton starts right now. thanks, chris, and thanks to you for tuning in. tonight's lead, they still don't get it. for millions of americans, the 2012 election came down to one issue, economic fairness. people voted in droves for president obama because they are sick of our system being so rigged in favor of the wealthy, where billionaires pay a lower tax rates than their secretaries and that's why the republican argument right now taking place in washington is just surreal. didn't they just lose the election defending tax breaks for the richest americans? not that they aren't good at talking a good game about compromise. one by one, some are coming out against the