it's his hair. he'll pull it for you any time to show you that it's real. i mean, he has hair like a 15-year-old, mr. president, and so i have to acknowledge, i am a little envious of his air. >> he will pull it for you any time at all. just ask him to see that it is real. this happened on the floor of the senate. thank you fog and the follicle gods. harry reid on ben nelson's luscious lock lgs. they may refer to the record of that luscious body and find hair envy actually in it. that's the best weirdest new thing in the world. that does it for us tonight. rachel will be back tomorrow with great hair. now it is time for the last word. have a great night. >> it's back! the debt ceiling.

>> house speaker john boehner took to the house floor only a few hours ago. >> john boehner was on the floor. >> people know that the president and i met on sunday. >> and said his meeting was nice. >> it was a nice meeting. it was cordial. >> cordial. >> we have to cut spending. >> holding back when it comes to spending cuts. >> republicans have been ratcheting up their rhetoric. >> get the tax issue off the table. >> we don't have the leverage. >> you can't tax your way out of this baby. >> throw in the towel on this tax rates issue. >> they have the debt ceiling. >> keep your eye on the debt ceiling. >> the debt ceiling part of this deal. >> the leverage is going to shift. >> it's their leverage. >> the leverage is going to shift. >> and maybe their only leverage. >> and you want to have leverage. >> that's leverage. >> that's making it worse. >> investors are preparing to go off the cliff. >> this is almost a game of chicken. >> negotiation 101. >> are republicans feeling the pressure? we have stopped being at the timeerred to reality. we're still waiting for the white house. i think it's time for him to leave. he has an obligation to put

forward a pln by putting his plan on the table to pass both chambers of the commerce. something the congress can pass. >> we have stopped being at the timeerred to reality. >> what is real? how do you define real? i'm an optimist. i'm hoping we can reach an agreement. >> the less said, the better the news may be. >> i'm hopeful we can reach an agreement. >> let's be honest, we're broke. they have to cut spending. >> they'll push that and go to the senate and lose. >> good evening. i'm alex wagner in for lawrence o'donnell. just 21 days until we go off the fiscal curve. speaker john boehner went to the floor of the house of representatives to provide an update on a deficit reduction deal. with president obama holding no public events today, it was the perfect opportunity for boehner to try to change the narrative of the current tax debate and shift some of the pressure onto

the president, but the white house was ready to respond with props. >> we're still waiting for the white house to identify what spending cuts the president is willing to make. where are the president's spending cuts? >> it's not a mystery. we've seen this before. this is the document that contains the specific spending cuts. the speaker of the house sent us a proposal two page long that included one sentence on revenue. pages 17 to 45, details on proposed sending cuts by the president. pages 17 to 45. i recommend them to you. >> speaker boehner's attempt to play the reality card was met with a reality heck from nancy pelosi. >> if the president doesn't agree with our approach, he has the obligation to put forward a plan that can pass both chambers of the congress. >> we have been calling upon the speaker to bring forth middle

income tax cuts for a very long time, in fact, since last summer when it passed the united states senate, the president stands ready and poised to sign it. democrats in the house have a discharge position to bring that bill to the floor. what stands in the way is an act on the part of the republican majority to bring a middle income tax cut to the floor of the house. >> one congressional republican leadership watcher provided this update on the state of john boehner's negotiating position. >> john boehner is speaking. he's reporting in. he says he's an optimist. but he doesn't sound optimistic. in what he is explaining, stressing the need to cut spending. did say he's hopeful we can reach an agreement. i don't care where you turn. in the conservative

intelligence, you are seeing the republicans have no prayer now. they're just going to have to cave in on this rate increase on the rich. they're just going to have to. >> the president's public schedule is curiously clear, which could mean he's busy working behind the scenes on a deal. we know president obama and john boehner met privately on sunday and nbc news is reporting the two men spoke on the phone tonight the discuss the latest proposals. the white house is not talking about the details. let's bring in beltway bosom buddies. and ryan grim, the huffington post bureau chief. highly, highly awkward. gentlemen, let's talk first about this loose lips sink ships policy that seems to have been adopted in a bipartisan fashion. ryan, are we to believe that the fact that we are not learning anything about the specifics of any deal is a good sign?

>> depends on what you mean by good. if you think this deal is a good thing, then maybe that is good. i might rather see it go off the side of this desk here. but it's a little more serious for sure. they have all agreed they will be nice to each other for at least a few hours after they have exchanged these deals. the last time that geithner came over, geithner didn't come with paper. so republicans typed it up on paper and then leaked it out and said here's what geithner came with. so they created joke and called it a joke. the fact that they're not mocking each other, i guess we can call that progress. >> there's not a physical food fight yet. we heard rumors the white house made another offer down from 1.6 trillion to 1.4 trillion. is that any opening for the republicans to cave on tax increases? >> that's the worst political

analysis -- >> and the worst political reporting. let's be honest. >> it's just pathetic. that's why we bring him on the program. >> the white house did a counter offer. the rates down from 1.6 trillion to 1.4 trillion. we don't know how or in what fashion they made the reduction. and then in boehner's office went back with another response this afternoon. we don't know necessarily all the details he had in there. they're in the counter offer stage. they had a phone call tonight. this is the natural progress of how this is going to get resolved. there's been a lot of noise around this, in part because we like drama. we like standoffs. we like not knowing what the resolution might be. i think in boehner's self interest is to hold out as long as he can so he can turn arn to his caucus and say i tried as

hard as i could. i got as much as i could. now it's time toll jump on board. >> in the twilight zone version of 2011, the new element on the table if you will, ryan s the dell ceiling, which is not something asked about before. that would seem to be run for republicans. that is their leverage. that is precious to them. this is the president speaking firmly about his belief that the debt ceiling must be part of a broader package of negotiating. >> i want to send a clear message to people here. we are not going to play the game next year. if congress in any way suggests they're going to tie negotiations to debt ceiling votes and take us to the brink of default once again as part of a budget negotiation. which by the way we have never done in our history. i will not play that game.

we have to break that habit before it starts. >> ryan, that was the president speaking on december 5th to the business round table. the round table has since sent a letter urging both parties to come to an agreement. they have not specifically mentioned the debt ceiling. i don't think there's much of an appetite anywhere in the world, let alone in washington, for us to go through this again in three months. at the same time tor, to get th done, the democrats have to do something on entitlement programs. >> well, they're already offering to do something, which is up to 400 billion roughly in medicare and medicaid and other health care savings. they're saying they're keeping social security off the table. we'll believe it when they see it. they may reduce the rait of growth and social security. but the president is being firm here saying, look, i'm not going to play this game. i think he was right in that john boehner is hoping that he kind of gets pushed up against this cliff so that when he folds it looks like it was the only

choice that he had. look, there's nothing else that i could do. and nobody else, not eric cantor, not tom price. nobody was going to get you a better deal than this one. >> what you're seeing from the top of the party to the lower ranks is a recognition that this fight over tax cuts and tax rates is not good for them. there's no reason to believe that fight is going to be that much better for them. they suffered miz rably after the july 2011 standoff. and so i get that this is a bad situation for republicans. but i don't see the call cue louse behind saying if we can just threaten the credit of the united states government all things will be great for us. >> they did trillion plus cuts last year.

it's not easy to find things anybody will cut. if you keep doing this and have to cut another trillion you run out. >> they want to do this to pursue really unpopular policies. like reducing social security benefits. >> remember this is no longer. the president ran on that message, which is a testament to how far we've come since george h. w. bush. i'm wondering where norquist goes into this? if they raise taxes, no matter what is around it. does he still have clout in the gop? >> i think he ends up drinking a strong glass of merlot. >> i'll never do it again. >> right, right. listen, it seems clear at this juncture that the pledge will be

broken. if it's not via the bush tax rates it are be via the tax cuts. i don't know what this means for his long term clout. in the short term i think he's going to have to do some rebuilding. he's going to have to try to buck up people. he's going to have to go out there and create consequences politically for the people who violated the pledge. >> indeed. arch enemies behind the camera. sam stein and ryan grim, both of the huffington post. thank you for joining me today. >> thank you. >> coming up, two last word exclusive ls. first up, college student duncan takes on supreme court justice scalia over his laws comparing bans on sodomy to bans on murder and bestiality. duncan joins me and law

professor jonathan turley. and when the show ended george and lawrence did not stop the conversation. the part of the exclusive interview you didn't see is tonight's last word. and if you think the president won't be able to achieve anything in his second term, think again. what's already in motion whether the gop likes it or not. that's coming up next. [ male ann serving handcrafted coffees in seattle, and people seemed to like it. so we wondered -- where else could we take this? ♪ for over 40 years, we've brought our passion for fine coffee and espresso to people everywhere. but one place was impossible, until now. our lattes, espresso and brewed coffee, now in your home from a machine like no other. and now $50 off through january 1st. the verismo® system, by starbucks.

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we are a government of laws, not of men. those are the words of associate justice to the supreme court, antonin scalia. scalia said that and a whole lot more during a headline grabbing appearance at princeton university that included a q&a session with students. it was then scalia was asked about his past writings on gay rights, including a 2003 case, lawrence versus texas which likened sodomy to among other incomparables, bestiality and incest. in that high case the court ruled that statescan not outlaw sodomy among consenting adults of the same sex. disagreeing, scalia wrote in part, texas' prohibition of sodomy is unsupported by a rational relation to a legislate state interest nor denies the equal protection of the laws. emphasis added. i dissent.

scalia continues the texas statute seeks to further the belief of the citizens that certain forms of sexual behaviors are immoral and unacceptable. the same interest furthered by criminal laws against fornication, bigamy, adultery and bestiality. when questioned on those comments comparing sodomy to murder, by a freshman who is gay, scalia doubled down, reaffirming the comparison he made nearly a decade ago. he said if we cannot have miranda rule feelings against or objections to homosexuality, can we have it against anything? it's a reduction to the absurd. i don't think it's necessary, but i think it's effective. i'm surprised you weren't persuaded. all this on the heels of the supreme court hearing two cases on marriage equality. joining me now in a last word exclusive to explain why he

wasn't persuades, duncan, the princeton freshman who questioned justice scalia. duncan, let's go to you first. describe the scene for us in the room. what happened and were you able to press justice scalia, or were you only able to ask just one question? >> i think there's a fundamental difference between arguing that the constitution doesn't protect gay rights and the constitution justified that we need to use this language when talking about gay rights. that was the point of my question. i wanted to confront justice scalia to talk about whether the rhetoric cited in his dissent, the rhetoric that he used in 1996 dissent in romer in which he compared gay sex to murder among other things. i wanted to ask him are those things really necessary to make his point. i don't think he answered about that question. i can talk about why. he was polite with me. he was cordial with me. i think he was respectful with

me. but he didn't really address the question. i think the response in the room was excellent. after i asked the question, i received a round of applause from princeton students. princeton does a lot of work to integrate the town into the community. there were many older residents there. after scalia started talking, the older residents gave him applause, which i think highlights the difference in views on gay rights and marriage. there was a back and forth in terms of who got more applause. again, i think he was polite and cordial in how he responded. i mean, he compared it to the reduction of the absurd. i think his response was absurd in many aspects in the sense that there's really no comparison between intimate homosexual couples trying to have intimate relationships or people murdering others or people engaging in bestiality or incest. he didn't defend the comparisons at the level he needed to because of the structure and inflammatory nature of those

comment ls. i wish he had. he's accurate. i'm not persuaded. and i think he needs to persuade a lot more americans about his views, because i think they're becoming increasingly out of the mainstre mainstream. >> jonathan, you've been particularly critical of justice scalia. he tends to veil his arguments in this claim to morality or morals. has that always been true? and isn't that a rather porous veil given the decisions handed down? >> it is true. and he makings decisions many of us find hard to square with. many judges don't make speeches at all on subjects related to depending cases. the court has two pending cases and he just spoke about one of the court issues in those cases. he's done it before. it's very troubling. at one time a chief justice would call him up and say look, you're in an exclusive club here. the price of the ticket is stop making these speeches because there's an appearance that he's

maintaining a base, his own constituency. but what's more troubling, and i really want to commend duncan. he's a remarkable student who represents his university well and represents frankly all of us well. but what justice scalia was talking about did succeed in reducing this to the absurd. he talks about what's often called a slippery slope. if you don't let legislatures declare things immoral, all of these will happen. he's the one on the slippery slope. if you allow the majority to declare anything they want immoral, you go back to loving and virginia when they clarified mixed marriages. that's what you get when the majority criminalizes what they think is immoral. >> duncan, it would seem justice scalia is holding onto a world view that is increasingly dying out. this is something that this point of view will no longer exist in several decades, if not simply years from now.

i wonder what the reaction on campus was. because the issue of gay marriage or marriage equality is often divided along generational line lines. i would imagine the student body at princeton feels generally that this is a civil right. but i ask you, what was the reaction on campus to scalia's comments? >> i received an overwhelmingly positive reaction. i opened my e-mail this morning and had 92 e-mails. some from people all over america. the story was picked up by the associated press. i had an e-mail from someone in arizona, alaska, everywhere in the country. on campus though, i have received such supportive comments. it's been really helpful to me. it was a very courageous thing. it took a lot of courage on my part. it's something i was really nervous about doing. something i thought that maybe i wouldn't do. and it's also important to point out that i don't understand why conservatives like scalia don't support gay marriage because i think gay marriage and gay rights as a whole are really consistent with conservative

values. conservatives believe in promoting marriage as the bedrock of our society. if we want to pro mote marriage, we should hay low more people to enter it, more people who are committed to each other, who want to make sacrifices to each other. more people who are willing to, you know, spend their lives in these committed relationships. that is a conservative principle. and ultimately i think that that in itself is consistent with conservative values. >> duncan hosie, speaking the truth. just a freshman. so impressive, my friend. thank you for joining us tonight. and jonathan turley, thank you as well. >> thank you. >> coming up, republicans still don't understand what went wrong in 2012, so now they have a committee that will tell them what went wrong, besides the whole mitt romney thing. governor howard dean joins me to discuss. and what republicans can't stop in obama's second term, progress. that's coming up. [ male announcer ] when it comes to the financial obstacles

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in portland oregon, a shooting at a mall left twro victims dead and one person injur injured. police say the shooter killed himself at the scene. shots rang out around 3:30 local time. north korea successfully launched a long range rocket. part of the rocket fell into the water west of the korean peninsula and another party in the sea east of the philippines. and now we'll take you back to "the last word." republicans put together a committee to figure out what went wrong and conveniently leave out the people at the root of all the 2012 problems. governor howard dean joins me next. and they didn't stop with when the show ended. more of the exclusive interview with george decay is coming up.

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and social security strong for generations to come. i've been fortunate to win on golf's biggest stages. but when joint pain and stiffness from psoriatic arthritis hit, even the smallest things became difficult. i finally understood what serious joint pain is like. i talked to my rheumatologist and he prescribed enbrel. enbrel can help relieve pain, stiffness, and stop joint damage. because enbrel, etanercept, suppresses your immune system, it may lower your ability to fight infections. serious, sometimes fatal events including infections, tuberculosis, lymphoma, other cancers, and nervous system and blood disorders have occurred. before starting enbrel, your doctor should test you for tuberculosis and discuss whether you've been to a region where certain fungal infections are common. don't start enbrel if you have an infection like the flu. tell your doctor if you're prone to infections, have cuts or sores, have had hepatitis b, have been treated for heart failure, or if, while on enbrel, you experience persistent fever, bruising, bleeding, or paleness. [ phil ] get back to the things that matter most.

ask your rheumatologist if enbrel is right for you. [ doctor ] enbrel, the number one biolog medicine prescribed by rheumatologists. i don't accept for a moment that conservatives have lost the

argument i don't think the argument has been made. not by the party. yes, i make it every day here and some people on fox and other talk show hosts and the blogs, yes. none of us get votes. the only way you can say conservatives losing is in the sense that the republican party is afraid to use it. >> in the spotlight tonight, how did it all go so wrong for the republican party? republican national committee chair reince priebus has launched the so called growth and opportunity process to ask that very question. five republicans will chair the project. only one of which you've probably heard of. former george w. bush press secretary arifleicher. they accuse pollsters of underestimating the romney vote in a bid to secure an obama

victory in november. after learning about the project, "washington post" conservative columnist jennifer reuben called you can almost hear the cries objecting to any substantive policy changes on immigration or gay marriage and see the eye rolling from grizzled veterans who think it is beneath the dignity of the republicans to feel your pain. if the party does nothing there is every reason to believe it will keep losing elections mpl here's what karl rove believes the republican party needs to change. >> i hate to say but we need to copy what howard dean did. make our ground game in all 50 states. >> joining me now, the man behind the former 50 states strategy, howard dean. governor dean, did you ever think there was a time when karl rove would say we need to be more like howard dean? >> i did not. it comes as a large surprise to me as well. look, it is true that the obama ground game is the best i ever

saw it. it was unbelievable. and the republicans have a lot of work to do. they're way behind. that ground game is not enough to win. the fact of the matter is you can nod peddle hate of immigrants, gays, lesbians and women by saying god's will is to make women pregnant when you're raped. if that's what you believe, if that's what conservative principles are, you may as well go some place else. we're done. the argument is over. and these guys have to change their philosophy, not just their ground game. >> governor, according to reince priebus, the growth and opportunity will focus on these areas. one, campaign mechanics and ground game, two messaging. three, fund raising. four, demographic partners and allies. five, third party groups. six, campaign finance issues. seven, parties. and eight lessons berned from

the democratic campaign tactics. i saw the list. i see who they've appointed. is this anything other than reince priebus' trying to win the chair again. >> when you get him into a situation where he can talk openly, he's not a right winger. some of the other folks that i don't know that well. the problem with the party is they're so afreud of the right wing that people who aren't right wing sound like them. romney criticized murdoch when he talked about god's will and women getting raped and pregnant and then continued to run ads for him in indiana. so you have to stand up to somebody and standing up to people is what folks value in a president. i don't see any evidence that the republican party is willing to stand up to the hate wing of the republican party.

they have to do that in order to win. >> governor, david brooks of the "new york times" seems to have a differing opinion. he writes today, the republican party has a long way to go before it revives itself as a majority party. over the past month the republican party has changed more than i expected. they are moving in the right direction and moving fast. he cites a number of things including the fiscal tax -- sorry. the fiscal cliff looming ahead of republicans and the sort of begrudging view towards reality that the tax rates are going to rise. he talks about marco rubio and paul ryan and offering a vision for the gop. but at the end of the day, marco rubio has said i don't want to pursue comprehensive immigration reform. and look -- >> let's be honest here. >> go ahead. marco rubio said he's not so sure science is a form of

evaluating how old the earth is. gave me a break here. you can put lipstick on a pig, it doesn't change the pig. these guys are trying to dress themselves up and avoid talking about the issues. as long as they nominate people like todd aiken and richard murdo murdoch, they're not going to avoid these issues. and as long as they have primary voters who make mitt romney, as they called himself a severe conservative. he was severe all right. they can't win. they can win if they change hemss. they got to stop beating up on gays. stop beating up on immigrants. stop beating up on muslims, and understand what america is really about. and it really is about opportunity. and the young people who voted 65% for obama. they would vote republican if it was just on fiscal grounds. they're not going to vote republican the republicans are preaching hate of the people they grew up with and who are their friends. it's just not going to happen. >> governor, i thought this was

one of the more outrageous things i heard. scott tranter was speaking at a pew center panel yesterday and this is what he said about voter i.d. laws. >> a lot of us are campaign professionals and we want to do everything we can to help our side, and sometimes we think it's voter i.d. sometimes we think it's longer lin lines. whatever it may be. >> effectively he's saying we may want to double down on disenfranchising voters in order to win. >> this is the fundamental problem with the republican party. it's not entirely clear to me that they believe in democracy. if you think it's okay to reduce the number of people to vote so that your size can win, explain to me how you value democracy in the great scheme in one of the greatest democracies in the history of the world. it's not clear that taking away a the right to vote the same as democracy. now the only vouter fraud in th last election was a republican group in florida and then in

virginia and then an individual single republican woman who voted twice, i suppose to prove a point. that's the only voter fraud there is. the voter i.d. laws are aimed at restricting the abilities of poor people and young people to vote. if that's what you think it takes to win, you probably shouldn't run a campaign in the united states. russia, perhaps. that's not american. >> governor howard dean, thank you for joining us tonight. >> thank you. >> coming up, the president may get everything he wants accomplished. maybe, just maybe. no matter what the gop has to say for it. and more of lawrence's exclusive interview on marriage equality and the donald. that's coming up. look, if you have copd like me,

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these may worsen with spiriva. discuss all medicines you take, even eye drops. stop taking spiriva and seek immediate medical help if your breathing suddenly worsens, your throat or tongue swells, you get hives, vision changes or eye pain, or problems passing urine. other side effects include dry mouth and constipation. nothing can reverse copd. spiriva helps me breathe better. (blowing sound) ask your doctor about spiriva. tonight's final frontier is an exclusive. more of lawrence's conversation with george tekai. the topics, marriage equality and donald trump. that's coming up. and what president obama can and

will get done in his second term. no matter what republicans try to do. that's next. share "not even close." share "you owe me..." share "just right." the share everything plan. shareable data across 10 devices with unlimited talk and text. get a droid incredible 4g lte by htc for $49.99. progresso. in what world do potatoes, bacon and cheese add up to 100 calories? your world. ♪ [ whispers ] real bacon... creamy cheese... 100 calories... [ chef ] ma'am [ male announcer ] progresso. you gotta taste this soup.

100 calories... have led to an increase intands clinical depression. drug and alcohol abuse is up. and those dealing with grief don't have access to the professional help they need. when you see these issues, do you want to walk away or step up? with a degree in the field of counseling or psychology from capella university, you'll have the knowledge to make a difference in the lives of others. let's get started at capella.edu as president obama's first term comes to a close, one might look back on the landmark policies he enacted. financial reform, a health care plan, the rescue of the american auto industry, the winding down of the wars in iraq and afghanistan. one might look at one of those and sigh as in there's no way he's going to get anything done in the next four years.

between rounds of the boxing match that is the fiscal curb. now content republicans have issued proclamations about the implications of presidential overreach. squander the good will now and you will pay the price later, mr. obama. which is to say squander the good will now and we will continue to do exactly the same thing we've done for the last four years? never mind the strategory. isn't part of good will playing by the rules? setting aside the hypocrisy of threating among the good will, the reality is president obama may end up overseeing one of the most progressive eras in american history. the news that the supreme court is set to take up the issue of marriage equality is inconclusive. it bodes well for an america that aims to treat its set zens equally under the law. most republicans know this, and if they don't, history is a

useful guide. in 1967, 16 states banned interracial marriage when the court legalized the union of men and women, regardless of their skin color. in 1954, 17 states had segregated school systems when the court declared in brown versus board of education that separate was not in fact equal. and in 1973 when roe v wade was decided, abortion was legal in only four states. given the court's historic inclination to favor expansion of freedoms, even when public opinion is not on its side, it would seem plausible the justices will conform what a majority believe is right and up hold the constitutionality of marriage equality. if this is in fact the result, president obama will guide one of the last remaining civil rights battles to completion. a moment that may come to define his presidency as much as anything he has done to date. similarly on the subject of immigration, president obama has made clear that comprehensive

immigration reform will happen in the next four years. stung by rue milluating losses at the polls in november, the gop understands the problems its faces among the young, the brown and the young and brown. the only question is just how long it takes the republican party to come to terms with this. if conservatives are smart they will try to find a seat at the table. less the president and the democratic party secure the votes of every single one of the 11.1 undocumented immigrants who play a foundational role in both the spirit and the the economy of this country. as well as their children and their children's children. if the grand old party is unable to quiet the most extreme and divisive members within its own ranks, then the bigoted strategy will become the party's ruination. there are enough on the right that understand this and the democratic cliff facing the

party and they are the ones likely to make a deal on immigration. what remains to be seen is whether the treats as outcasts or are party's new standard. it is president obama's first term that may strangely pale in comparison with hitz second. for republicans to get in on the game, they must acknowledge that the country has changed, and so too must they, ideally with full hearts and good will. as the president has said countless times the arc of the moral universe is long but it bends towards justice. the gop has taken full advantage of this and dragged its feet on justice, but that time unless action is taken the party's time is coming to a close. look this isn't my first christmas. these deals all seem great at the time... but later... [ shirt ] merry christmas, everybody! not so much. ho ho ho! this isn't that kind of deal. [ male announcer ] break from the holiday stress. save on ground shipping at fedex office.

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star trek legend george takei made news when he wrote a blog post advocating higher taxes for higher income earners like himself. he and nick ramsey would talk about just that. after every show guests get a chance to talk about the things they didn't get to say on air for the very last word, which is then posted to the show's website. here is more of the last word exclusive interview. lawrence asked takei about being an activist for marriage equality and why exactly he met with donald trump. >> so, george, how you doing convincie inine ining donald tr needs to pay higher taxes? >> we didn't talk about that part of it. >> you met with him this week? >> i did. day before yesterday. >> you did his show, celebrity

apprentice. >> that's right. and when we were promoting that, i said i would like to have lunch with you, and discuss your concern about marriage equality. and i expected him to demur. he said, you know something, george, i think i could learn something from you. and so he agreed to it. i was a little taken back, i must say. but we couldn't get our calendars to jibe. i was working on a tv series in pittsburgh. then i went from that to working on a musical called the legions in san diego, which broke all records there, and we're headed to broadway this fall. >> what is that? >> it's about japanese-americans. >> i was just reading about it. they have a distinguished history of outstanding productions. we broke the box office dollars as well as attendance.

it was a great success. >> so you try to talk sense to donald trump. didn't you know going in there's no such thing as talking sense to donald trump? >> well, but he's a good businessman. >> could you show him a businessman's reason why he for his business life should think the way you do? >> well, there are going to be more marriages here. more celebration of marriages. people coming from other states like new jersey that doesn't have marriage equality coming to new york to celebrate and legalize their union. the core value of marriage is two people who love each other and who are committed to each other. it isn't necessarily defined by gender. opposite sex marriages often are horrific. >> really? what are you talking about?

what are you talking about? >> let me show you a copy of the inquirer. people that get married in las vegas overnight and then are fighting and yelling and suing each other and they get divorced. >> sometimes they don't remember they got married. >> that's right. that is not a marriage. that's not what we should sanctify. what we're talking about is civil law. there's a distinction there. and those who love each other and want to protect each other, because one may be older than the spouse and you want security for your spouse for whatever may happen. and our laws do not provide that. we want security for when we should pass or when -- well i

can give you an example. we had friends -- it's past tense now -- in washington, d.c. they've been together for over a decade. one partner went out of town on a business trip. came back, opened his apartment door. and his partner was on the floor, having passed out -- or died of a heart attack in his absence. the deceased partner's relative was a lawyer brother in boston for whom had been estranged. he came and took everything. the laws were against the one that -- they shared their lives and their fortune and yet he lost t all.

so this grieving partner lost not only the love of his life, but everything that they had built together. there's that kind of injustice. and this barrier that we insist on, legalistic barrier that we insist on putting up is to me unfathomable. in the case of our being incourse rated in the second world war, we looked different. we were visibly identifiable. but in the case of homophobia, we are literally members of a family. we are sons and daughters of heterosexual parents. we are brothers and sisters. we are literally kin, blood kin, and yet we deny the lgbt member of the family the same legal protections and rights that they enjoy. it's irrational.

you know 70% of young people under the age of 35 all support marriage equality. >> the opposition is just aging out. >> that's right. it's a matter of time. >> you know, i've driven by northern california, one of the encampments up there. there's really nothing there you have to know on the map that this is where it was. no structures left. >> they were all in the most decemb desolate place of the country. >> yes, it's astonishing. i pull over and look at the identifier to tell you where it is. showed it to my daughter. it was so astonishing that that was so recent, so easy to do at the time, so hard to see what was wrong with it from the

people outside those camps who put you there. >> and it was totally irrational. because it was hawaii that was bombed. but if they had in turn -- the people of japanese-americans on hawaii in the hawaiian territory were not incarcerated. because they were about half the population and the economy would have collapsed. we who were on the west coast were thinly the spread out. we were primarily in the rural areas, farmers. some were acquiring land and becoming quite successful. and so it was hysteria and greed and lack of political leadership. interesting historical note. we had an attorney general in california who took the oath on the constitution of the united states, and he knew the

constitution. yet when he sense d that the ge rid of the japs movement was the most popular issue in california, he wanted to run for governor. he ran for governor on that get rid of the japs, and he won. later he was appointed to be the chief justice of the united states supreme court. his name is earl warren. and he never owned up to that checkered history of his. >> it is amazing how quickly people sped away from it. my sense of it is -- i wasn't alive at the time. but my sense of it is that there was a realization that set in with higher speed than normal that, oh, we were grotesquely wrong, but we're not going to talk about it, say in the earl warrca