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>> good morning from new york. military forces in chad claim to vo killed the mastermind at a gas facility in january. his death has not been confirmed. voters in switzerland are the tightest controls. executive pay in the world including giving veto power. i am joined by msnbc's chief economist and policy director to joe biden. the chair of the economics department at the university of kansas city and the new economics perspective blog. back to the future of a 1980s explaining the world we live in

now. the director of budget and policy of conservative americans that advocates a national single flat tax. we are 32 hours into washington budget cuts. the government is now phasing in a series of across the board spending cuts and they had discretionary programs with 1.2 trillion over ten years. he refused to be part of a deal to replace the sequester. >> how much more money do we want to steal from the american people to fund more government? i'm for no more. >> the economic damage from the latest self-inflicted wound will almost certainly cause hardship for hundreds of thens of struggling americans. 150,000 people can lose their job and take a major hit. if you know one thing for sure, for each of these battles, first

of debt ceiling and remarks like boehner's have been damaging with the goppo brand. most americans would like a deal to consist of new spending cuts and revenue. a "washington post" poll published wednesday found that just 26% of americans approve of the way they are handling public spending. by contrast, 43% approved of the way president obama is handling spending. republicans seem to be failing political low and achieving at the goals and setting the terms of the debate in washington. everyone is talking about how it best to achieve austerity and no one is talking about how to get back to full employment as the president said. >> not only congress, but washington in general spends all its time talking about deficits and not a lot of time talking about how do we get out of this.

>> the lone few voices of sanity has been memberses of the congressional caucus. they remain marginalized in getting people to focus on the deficit. many call it a victory despite their costs. they set up the cuts and said this will be the first significant victory. what we got will set out in changing washington. >> the trajectory of people's way that they are being spun. the sequester is a bad thing and it's obama's fault hence the hash tag. at the end they said it's a good thing. i felt like members of the tea party caucus. they said look, this is what we wanted. paul ryan said this in 2011.

do you view this as a success for fellow travelers? >> absolutely. i think you are right in terms of republicans. the last part i would point out is if we are talking about the balanced approach with revenues and spending cuts, that's the fiscal cliff. that was part of this debate. >> for started last year. >> we were supposed to have the biggest hike in history. they kicked out three months, but if you are looking for revenues, you already had it. >> it runs a good article and with the sequester in place, we are on track to get the $4 trillion of deficit deduction. a small amount of people would tuck too each other. that was the target. with the sequester we have, the ratio of spending cuts for the one.

simpson bowles was 2-1. if you are looking in terms of the raidio, it's the spending cut side. >> madi did a thing that republicans do which is start talking about the tax increases that had a part of the fiscal curb deal. i don't see why you get the spending cuts that started with the budget control act. if you add on the other trillions in ongoing cuts, you get to the ratio. regarding your introduction, another person has been talking about this in terms of jobs which i believe is the most immediate deficit we face. it is i think a very bad out come that republicans and democrats have contributed to that were stuck in hair on fire deficit obsession of which i believe is a medium or long-term

constraint and not an immediate one. >> it's important what you said about democrats. bill clinton and i am not blaming him, but he touted surpluses. talking about surpluses and deficits as opposed to job and it is economy. this is the box that politics are now in. dick cheney was the guy who said deficits don't matter. >> to a point they don't matter. if you are a conservative, you looka the size, but you don't care the government is not taking, but that they are overspending. >> thank you for being honest. conservatives don't care about the deficit. >> it's the rhetorical device. it's not the product we are focusing on. >> 1,000% true. >> i don't see why it's a problem to say that. size of government is the problem. >> that's what you care about. >> don't you use it to reduce

the size of government? >> the size of government means many, many things. deficit, that relates to people and it's a narrative that people understand. >> i don't think it does relate to people, but i agree. you want to make sense to ignore when they care for the deficit. the people who are ideologically committed to reducing the size of government. >> george bush was not someone who cared about the size of government. >> that's correct. is he the token republican? >> he's not a token. he led the party for eight years. >> in a certain sense it's making the reagan argument. by saying we should be focused on jobs and growing the economy. >> and stephanie, you are an academic who does academic work concluding what dick cheney sides right.

>> it's not that the deficits don't matter, but they don't matter in the way people think they matter. the democrats give them help along the way and focus on the deficit and use that for cover to do the things they want to do. go after the progressive ooh jenda and dismantle and undermine the great society and the new deal and pull apart the things. >> here's the thing about that. this gets to what i think is fascinating. my emerging pet theory is that the republican party, i'm not convinced. i used to be convinced they wanted to go after social security and medicare. based on their behavior, i am convinced they don't want cuts to medicare and social security. they don't want to make cuts to current beneficiaries. that's their base. b, poll republicans about social security. tea party. wildly unpopular.

if they really wanted cuts to social security and medicare. they could have had it by now. it is extended time and time again. i want to show the president complaining about the fact that he tried to give them this and they won't take yes for an answer. they talked about the deficit reduction. >> i put forward a claim that calls for serious spending cuts and entitlement reforms and goes right at the problem that is at the heart of a long-term deficit problem. i offered negotiations around that that offers a balanced approach. >> and it's nowhere. an off the record briefing said if the president would offer something like chain cpi which is a different calculation, in real terms, they said if you get somewhere, that's in the one-page thing they propose.

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the only thing republicans want more than getting out social security and entitlements is not compromising with the president. that seems to be the case to me. they are being handed this. the president said we will go with you and make the cuts and they said no, we don't want them. >> to understand the republican position you have to understand that their major objective goals one, two, and three is shielding

high income people from any tax increase. that's where it hits. they also say they are for smaller government, but since they as you suggest and you do as well, don't want to touch the entitlements for ten years and then after that probably another ten years. that doesn't leave a lot, but they are wacking away with the budget and tends to fall on low income people. >> i disagree entirely. republicans don't want to cut entitlements and i would argue they want to save entitlements. that's what you see in house republican budgets that have passed the house. >> by making the benefits smaller or changing them. >> the other point is that republicans don't want to cut defense spending. what are we sitting here talking about? >> hold on a minute. >> she's right. there two views. that was belated.

>> you got the revenues january 1. >> back in my state of colorado, i remember this seminole moment where the republicans and the tea party republicans are talking about cutting government and the sequester government starts & a couple of senators talk about how we can't cut defense. cutting defense would mean a loss of jobs and national security and i made the point thaw can't say defense creates jobs. >> part of the thinking behind the sequester is republicans are so against defense cuts they will come to the table. there enough republicans who don't feel it. >> they came to be okay with it. here's my alternative proposal. this is a poorly designed thing. it turned out like a nerf. everyone was comfortable.

here's whey say to get people to get a deal. you have to find something that everyone in washington really hates. if you top the come to a deal, a $1 trillion combo program and debt forgiveness program, that will get people to the table. if they don't come up with a deal as the government starts doing a correct hiring of people, half of it is hiring and half is debt forgiveness. the problem was, they thought search going to hate this so much they will come to the table, the republicans came to stop the defense cuts. >> you are talking about republicans winning. as a small government and libertarian-type, this is promising for someone like me who sees republicans. >> i think that's the big question. >> is it only a conserfative victory. you could make the argument that the sequestration cuts to

defense are a backdoor thing. >> they have been in that argument. from the perspective that we still have 8% unemployment, what's so perverse is there is a broad consensus that we need a short-term counter cyclical policy and the deficit problems are genuinely mid-to long-term. what happened is the absolute reverse. nothing happened in any of these deals to do anything about the mid-to long-term. the affordable care act has been about short-term construction. austerity and none of the stuff that the. >> pete:ersons of the world do. it's a perverse out come. >> not only austerity, but we have absolutely no reason to suppose that there is a medium or long-term problem. the problem is reflective in somebody calculating and

forecasting inflation in the future. that's when you know you have concerns about the deficit. you are going to see there is an inflation forecast. it means we will have too much demand and inflation in the future. where is the credible study and the forecast? >> where is the market pricing? >> where is it anywhere that the deficit is a problem. >> explain what tips are. >> those are securities that investors can pile into with inflation over the long-term. it is absolutely not there. not in medium or short-term. the republicans by and large have convinced everybody that we have this long-term deficit problem. they are able to sell this austerity in the short-term. if it's coming, we might as well act now and that's how you get people to support the awful

policies that make the conditions worse. >> i want to make the argument that barack obama is the only man in washington who is being honest about what he is trying to do. people have doubts about taking aspirin for pain. but they haven't experienced extra strength bayer advanced aspirin. in fact, in a recent survey, 95% of people who tried it agreed that it relieved their headache fast. visit fastreliefchallenge.com today for a special trial offer.

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this is basically just as fast. oh. and verizon's got more fast lte coverage than all other networks combined. so it's better. yes. oh, why didn't you just say that? huh-- what is he doing? the hair on fire brigade. what was remarkable, this is basically enunciating that he is with the president. he doesn't say that, but the concept is what barack obama is offering. take a listen. >> a program like simpson bowles

that had about $3 of spending cuts for every dollar of revenue, and all the attacks all of the a r aspects on the budge uh which is on the table, they are all on the table. it's the right way to approach this problem. i would be much happier with a program that was focused on long-term and as i say had investment in the short-term. >> that is basically barack obama's position. what i find ironic is the only person in washington who genuinely wants a grand bargain is barack obama. and also the menacing bully that famously threatened. they want it. they believe in it and i don't think they are playing politics when they say it. the irpy and the beltway obsessed with this are most angry barack obama for not getting it done. even though he is the only

person who wants it. >> the politics in washington are no longer about dealing with it. there was a closing window and ability to make any kind of deal. we talk on your show a couple of months ago about how barack obama himself has become the culture war. anything he does is what the republicans have to be against. you say his name and among the republican base is fires up. when the republicans go back to their districts and they have to worry about mostly a primary. as opposed to facing a democratic opponent. whatever barack obama is proposing, they don't want to face a republican opponent. >> in anyone has a doubt of what they say is true, remember back to the campaign where they made a two-part argument. the president refuses to tackle entitlements. he wants to cut your medicare. enough said about that. i think where the problem comes

is that the president recognizes that there -- we disagree on this, but there long pressures particularly on health care spending. that is a larger problem. it is an economic constraint. some president who is a very intelligent guy who recognizes inefficiencies, but when you bring that into this context, it turns into slash and burn and cut social insurance in ways that are unacceptable to me and most of the american people. >> you guys don't want to, americans and taxes and the constituency you represent. do you want to cut spending and keep taxes low? >> that's the thing. if you are saying that the republican position is anti-obama, for our part, it's hard to see what that is. he takes credit for the cuts and talks about turning off the sequester.

he talks about complexity in the tax code and in the same breath he talks about new credits and tax treatment for energy companies he likes and not what he doesn't like. it's difficult to talk about this in a consistent manner. it's a smaller government. >> but there is a promise that barack obama wants a brand bargain. if he wanted a grand bargain and i think he does, perhaps he's a poor negotiator. where a republican doesn't want to look like they are making a deal with barack obama, then if barack obama wants a grand bargain in this middle, he would take a position that is far to the progressive left so that republicans could politically show they forced him to a middle. that's not what he has done. >> if you have got a progressive agenda if you are barack obama, it is thing that's interesting

is if democrats were so committed to having the bush tax cuts expire. they had two years where nancy pelosi was in control and barack obama was in the white house. they didn't do anything about it. it's interesting to hear they want a grand bargain and priorities. >> there other priorities, but he is correct in that there were not that many democrats who wanted to see them. that included barack obama. >> i think the point he is making and i agree with a different version. when the democrats were controlling to the extent they ever did, when they had a majority in the senate and the white house, they were on domestic legislation on changes to the u.s. code. health care reform and dodd

frank and fiscal policy, when the tea party swept into power, everything changed to the budget. we went from talking about -- it's very different than newt gingrich in 1994. america had a bunch of priorities like for instance welfare reform. this republican caucus doesn't seem to have priorities in terms of domestic policy. >> why didn't democratic leaders step up in 2010 and say the tea party is wrong? that's the thing i never have been able to wrap my head around. the acceptance overall. >> for has been partially a democratic position. i worked on campaigns in my previous life before i was a journalist and democrats in red states and blue states would say the calculus was as long as i say i'm against a deficit and everything else looks like that. >> there is no counter narrative on the progressive side.

it's epic. >> except for kansas city. >> and a couple. he is extremely strong on the austerity stuff. he hasn't come out and said in the long run i'm not concerned about the deficit. just fundamentally reject the premises that it's a problem. >> no one. >> that does so much damage. >> for sets the center. >> to any agenda that you can promote for good policy in the short-term. >> saying he solved the sequester. we will dig into that after this break. mallon brothers magic? watch this -- alakazam! ♪ [ male announcer ] staples has always made getting office supplies easy. ♪

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morning when we talk tax expenditur expenditures. explain. >> the reason tax expenditures are the solution is tax expenditures are how we spend through the tax code. if you are a republican who thinks we have a spending problem and lots say they do, you want to cut them because they are just like spending. on the other hand they generate a lot of revenue. you like them too. >> seeing a republican -- >> former chief economist. >> they said it's the good thing to go after. throw up the graphic to give them an idea. over $1 trillion a year. medicaid, social security and nondefense discretionary. a huge amount of money. there is a $5,000 dependent child care tax credit. i use it and they withhold the money from my salary at the end of the year and i use that to pay the person that provides child care for my daughter and i

cake that off my taxes, right? the value of that $5,000 is $2,000. the government writes me, cable tv host a check for $2,000 for the child care. if you are paying the lowest rate, the margin is lower. it's upside down. >> in the value of that is lower, but that's the example you want to use. someone who is a lower income bracket is the one using the check written to them. it's a refundable tax credit. if you are in the higher bracket, you get money back. if you don't have a tax liability that's where the spending is. >> this is a conceptual question. if i owe $3,000 in taxes and after this $38,000, the government is not writing me a $2,000 check. of course they are. in the absence of that --

>> you left out an important part. you told the tax credit part for hiring people. there is also a spending program. a child care subsidy which we spend. the government spends this. cutting tax expenditures. >> here's the big difference. for working class people and people getting direct government subsidies, it's subject to the sequester and it's vulnerable. the tax credit is part of the code. it goes on at perpetuity. >> that's the real entitlement. it's baked into the tax code means it is almost by definition unentitlement. if you qualify, you are entitled. >> do you agree this is a solution to that. >> you are so close.

>> if you are right, you are attracted to someone who doesn't have the liability and getting someone back from the government. >> i don't want to cut back. >> i don't want to learn the income tax. there good spending programs, but the things that have refundable credits. can we agreo that? those tax expenditures. >> the tax expenditures that feature diffidents and have the cayman island stuff, do you agree they should be cut in the interest of context. that's the space we want to use to get a fair one. are they said in a budget,

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and get the lg optimus dynamic. walmart. . >> thanks to the rhetoric, the austerity. those left of center think the programs to cut. they are advocating and marshalling the language and logic of austerity to advocate their goals. martin o'malley did that when he explained why he wants to a polish the state's death penalty. >> the death penalty is expensive and does not work and we should stop doing it. it's time to appeal and replace it with life without parole. >> prosecuting a death row case costs about three times as much as life without parole. on friday they began debating a

bill that requires 24 votes to pass and 26 senators publicly to vote for him. maryland lawmakers do pass in part because advocates focus their message on the consequences of the death penalty. not just the death penalty, they became the first states to fully legalize marijuana. the tens of millions of dollars of tax revenue. the criminal justice reforms reigned in the complex of prudence that offers the means of tactical victories. that we are broke doesn't produce strategic cost. the professor at new york school of law and founder and executive director and nonprofit organization that focuses on discrimination and the justice system. the research director for the national priorities project and more transparency and the federal budget.

the cofounder of presidente.org and contributor to the magazine, you are not speaking in your capacity of founder propertied here. i think this is interesting. they did this teaming up with them and you are operating out of alabama, a very conservative state where the politics are very intense. i have seen that firsthand. is that a means of making the arguments about the death penally reform in a place like alabama? >> i think it's necessary and i don't think it compromises anything. there costs to mass incarceration and the death penalty. some are moral and some are just. you want to accumulate the costs for those who have largely been indifferent to the excess and the death penalty.

it's a necessary argument and i think it enhances those in california and trying to get a public appeal and the referendum. they organize the all-around cost. california will spend $200 million a year. that is insane. >> a billion dollars in the next five years and nobody will be executed. the question is, is it worth it? the reality is it doesn't give us a fair death penalty. it's a necessary and effective argument. >> this is to fill in the details on the spending in california, you can take a look at how that breaks down. federal appeals and state appeal. it's a staggering number.

>> for advo cates it's necessar. i don't support violent crime. i don't think that's a good thing. too many of my clients have been victimized by a lack of services and lack of attention. so the resources can be deployed. maryland's bill can make money for the families of those who lost loved ones. california's bill was aimed at helping to solve the 34% of homicides. the 46% of the rates that don't dissolve, mostly for the communities. if you are concerned about public safety, these economic arguments make links. >> it's not austerity politics, but rechannelling the investments. >> i agree. i want to ask the question you can't make victories that you

have to make a strategic pivot. what is that on the death penalty. >> we have been talking about economic costs. the more complicated question is in the late 1980s when they said we are not going to abolish the death penalty. that was talking about juveniles and people with mental disabilities. that's a complicated question because they are trying to make it more palatable and that might sustain the death penalty. this is not that. this is really trying to get people to appreciate all of the cost and moral and political and all of those costs. there is not much to be lost. >> in colorado, i was struck by how fiscally focused that was. there was money for schools and

you don't even know what it was. that was the advocates for legalization in colorado that it was a two-pronged message. they will tell you that the money argue am in the context of what we could use the money for in a state that doesn't well fund the schools, but coupled with that was the idea that if alcohol is legal, so should marijuana be legal. why would a more unsafe drug not be. they will tell you and what came out is you have to couple a cost argument and a financial cost with something else. people in america have shown a pension for being willing to spend and overspend on things that they believe is right. the best example of that, the iraq war. 1 trillion or $2 trillion. the country believed we should do it and cost wasn't an issue. >> that tends to be the case when we are talking about defense.

austerity never seems to touch defense. somewhat remarkably. >> we are in a special moment. in april they will file taxes and 27 cents on every dollar will have been spend on the military. nobody looked at that and now americans are saying that's ridiculous. that crosses party lines. if you poll people, they want to cut about 18% from defense spending and washington hasn't yet gotten the memo. >> they have gotten the memo. >> just now starting to see changes. >> in this case i worry the most. obviously i have been around left politics since i was a wee little boy and it will be a great day when the military has a bake sale and the schools have all the money they need and there is too much money for the war. that has been around forever. politics in particular. in this moment it seems like we have this weird thing and we are

endorsing austerity. it's happening where we say we can't afford this money. we have to let it cut down. >> for requires a complicated message. saying deficit reduction is not the most urgent priority. it electrics like we are here for the time being and we can make smart long overneeded cuts to the pentagon. yes, that will cost jobs, but government cuts will cut them and you get more bang for your buck from the pentagon or education sectors. >> it's not a don't spend. it's a spent differently. >> you focus on cost and such a focused way is devious. as far as the visionary you need to build to take us out of the massive crisis that we are now going to follow.

when are talking about drug use, you are not talking about the criminals in the drug equation. who is making the profit from prisons? who is making the profit from policing. that's not part of the discussion. >> hold that thought. i want to that are quickly. ♪ no two people have the same financial goals. pnc works with you to understand yours and help plan for your retirement. visit a branch or call now for your personal retirement review. email marketing from constant contact reaches people in a place they're checking every day -- their inbox.

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. >> you want to respond? >> none of the advocates are making just economic costs. i don't actually think the economic arguments would be effective today if we hadn't shown over the last 15 years we are putting innocent people on death row. it's unreliable. the data that said for every ten people executed, one innocent people is identified. i don't think these economic arguments would have the force with the country that has been

nurtured on the politics of anger. every elected official said you can never be too tough on crime, you need a narrative to retreat from that and cost is effective. >> i want to show the effectiveness of that. i think it's interesting. 1976 and 66 in favor and reaches a peak in 1994. now it's back down to 63%. we have seen over the last 20 years, a fairly significant erosion of support for the death penalty. >> they are criminals and should get the death penalty. the conversation is not including what used to be the law up until the 19th century. state and federal governments have the right to dismantle the public good. a death penalty corporation.

>> i want to be clear. dissolution of the charter. not the killing of the individuals. dissolving the charter. >> when are we going to have that conversation since they are the people according to the law? >> this gets to where you want to push out the boundaries. who gets punished and who doesn't? who do they wayne down upon and where are they allowed to do what they want? getting stopped and fisked on the street. at the same time if you have to go to a state rep who is a conservative democrat representing a suburb of birmingham and doing the swing vote on a bill, none of that will matter. it's the same thing if you are working for congress. >> if the most effective argument that puts it over the top puts it over the top, you move heaven and earth to have the policy in place.

if that tips the scales, i absolutely think we need not worry. we have to couch the debate enough to keep your eyes on the prize. >> i will bring up an example about what happened in colorado. the legislature came within one vote of appealing the death penalty tow take the money and put it into the office to pursue the cold cases. a similar approach. you got within one vote. it is progress. the economic argument it wasn't enough to go to those conservative democrats and conservative republicans and say this is enough to vote for because i think they fear that an issue like the death penalty or the drum war is a religious issue. people say well, i may think it's better to save the money than not have the death penalty. killers deserve to die and i don't want more drugs on the

street. >> that's the reason why people have to understand. you can see it's acceptable and reject it as policy. you are trying to create space for that to happen. i think you say i am too progressive or too liberal or this to sulley my support and opposition to the death penalty by polluting the arguments. only the most protected and elite people can allow these violations to persist and not feel it. i'm thinking that anything getting to reform has to be open about it. >> with the drug argument, they understood that in order to get it passed, you have to make it with drugs. >> i want to talk to you about immigration and that's a place where they have been talking a bit and have a bigger conversation that and we will hit on that after this break.

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. from new york, i'm chris hayes with brian stevenson. they cramer and david from salon.com and roberto novato from the nation. strange and interesting intersection between austerity rhetoric and progressive priorities in the way in which the constant emphasis at the state level, at the federal level it's a mirage. it's less so. they have to balance their budgets and figure out the deficits and can't get the money. at the state level particularly, a lot of groups found ways of marshalling the language of austerity and budget constraint to the further progressive end.

at the federal level, it has to do with pearing back the complex. there is a tangled politics of this immigration where it was reported and later confirmed and announced that the dhs was releasing a number of immigrant detainees who had been picked up on nonviolent infractions and at first it looked like a few hundred and then a few thousand. when they were confronted about this, they said look, we have the sequester coming up and we have a budget that said we can't have these people in our beds. the immigrant rights advocates noted that the cost is 162 to $164 a day. anywhere from 30 cents to $14 a day. this struck me as part of a larger conversation about just how much money we have been

spending on the world enforcement in immigration. >> in the past 26 years, you spent about $186 billion enforcement. in order to do that you have to criminalize them. you have to -- democrats and republicans are in their policies right now and imgrans are criminals. that's why you have president obama declaring more people by the end of this year than all presidents from george washington to bill clinton combined. something is fabulously wrong with -- i don't know that immigrant rights are focused on that. there was an action on the group with the university in florida. the immigrant coalition and state actions against the florida university. they were accepting the stadium. >> we talked about that which is

a pruft private prison organization that makes money off and runs the detention centers for people in the custody. >> who is making money off of all this? in this case it would be the creeks corporation of america and prison builders and prison managers and police unions, probation unions. a whole slew of interests that are the barriers to real reform that would stop president obama from deporting so many people. >> the anti-immigrants are banking on the idea that people in their base will be fired up by the idea of more undocumented immigrants. >> it's a huge story from the right wing media that president obama is letting them run through the streets. >> i thought you were for shawlshawl

smaller government. how the politics play out will be rooted both in the financials of it and in how comfortable america is with immigration in general. >> part of this and this is why i think the project is key here. the way that we think about what government does is that we as citizens, particularly activists aren't engaged in the process of making trade offs. you are advocating for adults. then the representational system where things are prioritized. often by who has the most political power. there is an industry that relies on massive attention and they visit your office and write you checks. the politics happens along the single actions and it's fed into the system that produces the pie chart that is the budget that

has distorted priorities about where we spend our money. >> immigration enforcement is part of a bigger bundled mess. right now we are at the 10-year anniversary of the department of homeland security. it was the appearance of a solution and a sprawling bureaucracy built. talk about trade offs. since 9/11, wey spent $800 billion on homeland security that. amount substantially more than the cost of the new deal. inflation adjusted terms. >> but it also makes the point they feel like what's remarkable about the right is that they are able to simultaneously advocate austerity and designate certain things as sacred. the logic of budgetary impact. >> it's harder and harder to make the case where we ought to

spend more than the next 16 largest militaries could. >> barney frank said before 9/11, we had nothing and we can't spend. the day after 9-11, we had an unlimited amount of money to do anything. >> it boggles the mind to figure out who is right. calling them criminals and jailing them because they have a broken tail light which is what the current administration to immigrants, what is right? what is left is very clear because there is a clear movement where we talk about the economic costs of improvening peop people, but we are pulling away from moral argument because right voters really support arguments for immigration reform. now some of us are like -- >> that will be interesting because when the fight gets taken to the national level and

if this thing passes, it's going to pass by thin margins. people will say that. if you need these swing voters and a utah republican to vote with you. he doesn't want to hear roberto's radical critique. >> i remember the immigration 20 years ago was not even an issue. now the massive industries and we have these dehumanization of hate crimes and people dying in the desert because of the current policy. you can't vis rate the moral -- >> that's part of the challenge. 20 years ago we didn't have the economic interests that wanted thousands of people detained. you are right with the correctional associations of america. you have economic interests and the industrial complex. you had people on campus and political seconds and

legislatures. advocated and lobbying for more immigrant attention. we have 2.3 million prison beds that they want full. for the first time in history, you have people profiting from the excesses and you don't have an effective counter to the infusion of money. never the case that people lobbied for people to punish. you never had to do that. huh this set of interest that is pushing for lots of dollars. and they have no economic ability to counter. >> part comes back to this phenomenon called. >> 'tis paer ting budgets. they are making the trade offs themselves as opposed to these feeding into the representati representational system. when people are making the trade offs, they look more progressive than the trade offs made under

the hydraulic pressure of interest groups that have a certain monetary state. >> however people identify before they go into these things, they come with a huge agreement with taxes on the wealthiest and the spending. more on education. >> we are not just like pulling it, there was a long sign with people doing this. >> sequestration is with the word in spanish that means kidnapping. that leads to the great hope of our political moment to let politics and not just with more latinos who are more left than ever, but with the welfare state being shattered and dismantled and the wealth cap growing to the 80s and 70s, you are now going to see as we saw the kinds

of social media and they are going to think outside of the electoral box. >> you are painting rush limbaugh's words. i will see you back at the bottom of the show. will changing public opinion on gay rights force the gop to be more reducive? othing. we just bought our first house, we're on a budget. we're not ready for spring. well let's get you ready. very nice. you see these various colors. we got workshops every saturday. yes, maybe a little bit over here. this spring, take on more lawn for less. not bad for our first spring. more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot. get ready for spring with this ryobi 18-volt trimmer, just ninety- nine bucks. i've been using crest pro-health for a week. my dentist said it was gonna help transform my mouth. [ male announcer ] go pro. for a clean that's up to four times better, try these crest pro-health products together. [ sara ] i've been using crest pro-health. so far...it feels different. [ male announcer ] crest pro-health protects not just some, but all these

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. this week we saw a number of fascinating developments within the conservative movement and the republican party over inclusion and lgbt rights. i declined cpac's invitation due to the ban on the gay conservative group go proud. three days later a host said she will not attend cpac because of it. >> i have been thinking about this a lot and know a lot of

people on my side of the aisle have been struggling with this for sometime now too. i have been scheduled to speak at cpac and i don't think i can until this issue is reconciled and figured out. >> then the rock ridge conservative board of the gnarl view weighed in, writing as friends of cpac and advocates, we never excluded that they excluded the group. the issue of homosexuality is not monolithic and makes up a better part of the cpac attendees. we hope they will be better equipped to do so with the gambit of views included. also this week more than 100 republicans made it look very prominent and are sending a legal brief argueing it should strike down california and putting them in context on the issue with john boehner and the platform. they find the party is not immune to changing public

opinion and whether they are in their response, they will see in the coming months and years. we have four conservatives at the table. the lead writer and founder of the president's strategies and a member of go skproud former homeland communication director. the news foundation and senior editor of the american spectator magazine and director of the budget and grover norquist for tax reform. i think this is super fascinating because there is a bunch of different ways in which this is playing out. liz, you were involved i think in the kind of conservative debates. do you think momentum is in your direction? >> i do. it depends when you break it down issue by issue, but you look at debates with same-sex marriage, the developments you have seen over the last week or so really do indicate that

opinion within the conservative movement is moving in the same-sex marriage direction. you will still have debates about hate crimes and anti-discrimination and things of that nature, but as far as same-sex marriage is concerned with don't ask, don't tell, more and more conservatives are favoring. yeah. >> they had 120 republicans signing it. almost all people are not current elected officials. people formally in office. big donors. >> i did not put my name on the brief before it was filed. >> okay. there were a number of people who work with strategists and people who do not have to face republican primary electorates signing this letter, there is a reluctance among people who can actually vote to stand up. it was interesting when the

senate voted to legalize gay marriage a couple weeks ago, there was one republican vote and what i read in terms of backgrounds, republicans wanted protects for religious institutions in the bill over and above what was in it originally. they got to provide a vote for the bill. they got exactly one. they got in a room and drew straws. sorry, dude. you have to vote for it. i don't know what the progress means when it's behind the scenes and it doesn't translate into support. >> i would just say with regard to that, i think it's important to look at what's going on at the state level. that is what has been moving forward from the legislative standpoint. you point to illinois. i would urge you to take a look at new hampshire. you have a fairly conservative republican majority that was pressured to repeal major and they didn't do it.

there was sufficient republican report for keeping same-sex marriage. >> if you take a look at that what the polls were saying in 1996 when the marriage act was passed, 27% of the american people supported same-sex marriage at that time. if you look at the polls in the late 2012, the polls show about 30% of the republicans support same-sex marriage. while the country as a whole is supporting same-sex marriage, republicans are still the public opinion is where it is in the mid 90s. when you look at numbers of the republicans and evangelicals, it's likely that it will change, but it is going to be very gradual. that i think is what is producing the conflict between a lot of party leaders who are concerned about how this issue will affect the party's prospects and a lot of rank and file.

>> i looked at the data and the move really is with democrats and independents and not that dramatic with republicans. there is a 75-25 issue for republicans, meaning 3/4 of the republicans you poled are opposed and a quarter support it. that to me is interesting about this. it also seems to me, there is kind of an elite base disconnect here. the folks who make up and are in my twitter more conservatives and make up the elite conservatism or working full time as republican operatives. i think if you poled them or the cpac attendees, you may get higher support than if you poll your representative sample primary voters. >> i would agree. as a conservative libertarian working in washington, i care

about fiscal policy, but those young people who are experiencing politics for the first time are concerned about whether or not they are going to be employed and going to enjoy the same freedom in academic exposure they had that their parents may have had rather than a course of government saying it's legal or not legal. to me, it's more focused on what government is and how they are getting involved. >> i think there is this determined strategy with people within the movement particularly around the tea party to turn the attention from the movement from social issues to these fiscal issues and smaller government and taxes and things like that. it has been effective, but it's the same base. this idea that is a different base that swung on a bunch of evangelicals on issues they care deeply about, that's only nine years ago.

it's not like we have this new party. it's the same people. >> it seems like an underhanded ploy. >> i think it also reflects how the party operates and reflects that conservatives are okay with something their issue this is something they care about. gay marriage is their issue. we are okay with that. you don't need to have it. >> they are not okay on the other side of the issue. >> i don't think that's necessarily true and i want to jump back to the point you were making about the grass roots. it's not true to say they are overwhelmingly opposed, if you look at them, they have a larger share of republicans. again, if you look at new hampshire, it's a massive legislature. >> they have lockers. >> the number of people who are represented in the new hampshire

general court is minute compared to any you see anywhere else. those guys wouldn't have been able to get away with taking a pro same-sex marriage stance if that wasn't reflective of what you saw with the grass roots. >> what are matty said, for those who are urging cpac to go in, this is not intensity for them either. they are saying well, really leave the focus on the issues that matter. i don't know why it's a message that should sell to social conservatives. the argument is -- >> exactly. this issue is changing and demographically falling away from us, but if you were a posed and that's the issue that is important to you, you should want to fight on that. even at political cost. it's an interesting mirror. when you talk about it on the show, the head of it said the

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pass down something he will be grateful for. good arm. that's the power of german engineering. ♪ back to you. you made an interesting point. the intensity trade off. you believe in x, y, or z. one of the issues you argue over thanksgiving dinner and the polls. we confusion the two a lot in politics. it leads to a lot of confusion generally. if your issue is this issue, you can't be convinced to not care about the issue. that's what you care about. right on queue, president brian brown announce they will spend 500,000 to defeat republican who is support gay marriage and defeat any republican who votes in favor of same-sex marriage. they need to look no further

than what happened to gop senators in new york. we helped take out by repeatedly form them of betrayal on marriage. they are now oust office. we will not hesitate and do this in minnesota. i wonder what you make of that. will they play a big in politics and the calculations of elected officials. >> as long as the republican electorate are broken down the way they are, they will. a lot of social conservative acts and the debates of the late 80s and 90s, there was a push to get rid of the pro life plan. many similar arguments and types of people were -- the republican consultants were advocating that and saying theyor the wrong side of the issue and the polling changed somewhat. there is no serious push to do that anymore. the trajectory is different. >> it's a kind ofstasis in

abortion polling. there is not in rights. >> i think it's understandable for activists to look at the resident and think there might be hope. >> i would say on that i think there important differences. i am pro choice, but having an understanding of where the pro lifers are coming from, if you are talking about abortion that's a live and death issue. i don't think that pro lifers and social conservatives regard same-sex marriage in those terms. they do whatever it is they are going do is not the same as killing a human being. that will be regarded differently. that does have an impact. >> i am detecting a decline around gay marriage and some that are socially conservative. i want to talk about it. it's remarkable. the response to the president appearing on national television saying republicans for them to be like they are trying to

detract from the economy. >> or she flip flopping, but not saying he is wrong. >> there is inevitability and saying i am against gay marriage, but they can see it coming down the road. and i think they see it's happening some places and not changing the nature of society and they can't do much about it. while they are still a posed, they are not as avidly opposed as they used to be. that may be the opening. >> i want to talk about and zoom out to talk about coalition politics and the notion of purity. who is in and who is out and how do you make the decision? that applies in left politics and also in right politics. any kind of movement and ideological camp. there is a trade off between having a big tank coalition and those who might have different

views and you might be the local unit and not having people who are o poed to things you really don't believe in. i think this is playing on an interesting way the way the media is evolving. they have an interesting post critiquing the media and want to read that to you after this. ♪ ♪ we're lucky, it's not every day you find a companion as loyal as a subaru. love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. and these come together, one thing you can depend on is that these will come together. delicious and wholesome. some combinations were just meant to be. tomato soup from campbell's. it's amazing what soup can do.

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group even though it was picked up and a daily news reporter copped to the fact that they had jokingly said what are you guys hoping to find? through a weird game of telephone they had this piece. this prompted red state's eric erickson, calling for media to return to basic reporting. certainly part is because of the general media has a bias against conservatives to make it harder to take views serious leechlt they are trying to high lie controversies and we have forgotten the basics of reporting. as i learned in grade school as who, what, where, why, and how. we need to establish a base line that allows us to highlight the truly outrageous. i do think that there is this kind of person who has been in

the adult media his whole life. the connection to principals and a world view and advocate and what outcomes you you want to see and at the same time you don't want to say the wrong thing or think simple propaganda who disseminates false information. as someone who works in conservative media, this is back and forth. >> one of the important things you remember in liberal media is you are not a publicist for your side. where your leanings are important is what kind of questions you ask. what sort of things that it might naturally come to you to be skeptical about. >> what stories you pursue. i think that is a fundamentally different thing than inventing things or becoming an opposition research. >> it does seem to me and now at the risk of sounding biased, there is an a symmetry here with

the talking post memo or on the right. the outlets seem more committed. i have seen that with a bunch of new iterations. there is things like that that have announced themselves with an intention of being that, but the incentive structure of what gets you clicks and fund-raising pushes people. >> let me jump in here as someone who works with blogs online and that's my brief and the history of how these things grew out. online media was very activist on the left and the right. you started seeing more transition into it becoming more reporting. i think that happened earlier on the left than on the right. partly because who was president? where was the stuff to cover?

now you ary seeing right of center. >> because there was such -- >> toughington post had an incentive earlier to get to the point of reporting because their stuff would be taken more credibly during the bush years. now when i look at what is coming out of the daily caller, some things are hit and miss. not to sort of sit here and give jim a big wet kiss, but i think jim is right. the approach that he has and thinks needs to be demonstrated has been instituted pretty successfully. and i think there two. i think there stories that they break that are legitimately well-sourced. >> i want to read this and i don't know why he is going to work. this encapsulates what is

problematic. there true believers from either party that have gimmicky solutions out there. i linike to think i'm one of th. the mainstream medias and he made sure everyone knew that. that makes sure everyone is in line. if you think it's war, no shortcut is too much. >> i think it's important that not every conservative outlet is bright bart. everything they run is stupid. >> for got picked up on the places. let us know. >> for did get picked up other places. that's true. nobody should pay attention. i think the national review is doing good original reporting right now. he is a reporter and doing outstanding work and getting paid attention to not just by other conservatives, but the media as a whole. part of the problem for the right trying to develop them is

they haven't realized in some case that is when you do bad reporting, it's not just not useful, but this is a problem from the daily caller. you are doing good work, but there is a lot of bad work coming out. that interferes. sometimes you go there and there will be things that are basically well-reported. practice are. >> i would add that that can be true with the "huffington post" also. it's true. >> a lot of times too. >> the journalism though at times. >> there is a difference there. let's say cheap shots. >> from the perfective of looking at mainstream media, there is plenty that they overblow and turn into stories.

>> the national deficit for instance. mattie said that doesn't matter. more on the conservative media after the break. dad, i'd put that down. ah. 4g, huh? verizon 4g lte. 700 megahertz spectrum, end-to-end, pure lte build. the most consistent speeds indoors or out. and, obviously, astonishing throughput. obviously... you know how fast our home wifi is? yeah. this is basically just as fast. oh. and verizon's got more fast lte coverage than all other networks combined. so it's better. yes. oh, why didn't you just say that?

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marie callender's pot pies. it's time to savor. . you engaged in a fight or that brings up the question of purity and facts. i wanted to say this because this is the perfect trip. they had the line about the janitors who clean up after the folks who left capitol hill. this is good solid reporting and administer the staff of the u.s. senate and said is that true? he said no, there is a bit of a cushion that we used ahead of time. they are not getting a pay cut. he was wrong about that. his wrongness, i can say that on air. he's wrong. there facts of the matter that are the case. there is some way of having fidelity to that. that's different from friends of hamas. >> i don't feel like the

integrity and purity. it's okay. they are saying someone who is ideological can't be a journalist. >> i don't believe that at all. >> exactly. people think there is a dichotomy that needs to be balanced. we need to focus on what's happening and how people are talking to their audiences. if we are talking -- what's your twitter feed going to say now that you said the president is wrong? >> people will be mad about it. >> people are reactionary rather than being thoughtful and empty of what the entire context is going to be. >> it has to do with whether or not you view yourself as empowered or disempowered. i have been more tolerant of this kind of thing now that we're not in the bush years. >> i think in the bush years i fell like i was in a bunker and our country was doing horrifying things that were killing hundreds of thousands of people

and i didn't have much tolerance for the ka patienceness and liberal discourse. i understand that a bunker mentality produces instincts that are much more focused on winning a war than engaging in this kind of activity of fact finding. >> what's interesting about this is i will not totally blast them because i think there the occasional things that they have to make a job of reporting. whether it's like the clint eastwood signing on to the supreme court and anti-prop 8. >> a true fact about the world? >> it was an important story and it got picked up because they did a good job. they do things like that that are totally commendable. you have strategy and tactics. i think it is very easy for people to be so focused on the tactics they lose sight of the

strategy. when i'm looking at this, i pick stories that are geared towards left of center folks and right of center folks. i do it all day long. what is common is the stories that tend to come out about handling them are much more focused on the strategy and the reporting and the facts because that moves the ball forward. this is kind of lobbing shots back and forth over the net. >> i also think the acorn thing ruined a lot of media. it was this gross underhanded i'm sure you disagree about this, but it worked. it totally worked and got this. acorn doesn't exist development largely thanks to that. i continuing sent everyone chasing down the rabbit hole. what will be the next big under cover sting operation? >> i think some of that and the bunker mentality led them into a

place where they are misfiring because of this. if you are only really reading conservative media outlets, you don't understand when they're working and not. it worked with acorn and i think the mainstream media picked up a significant amount. >> jon stewart took the entire line and went after acorn. >> you saw in the campaign, republicans obsessing about the benghazi attack and not understanding that this was not breaking through as a whole. >> from the american spectator magazine, thank you, i enjoyed that. >> you should know from the news week ahead. coming up next. my mother made the best toffee in the world.

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violence against women act. congress sent president obama a bill that would expand vawa. eric can'tor he oo oor held up . house speaker john boehner finally caved this week and let the bill come to the floor for a vote with provisions intact. 87 republicans, just over a third of the gop caucus, joined 199 democrats in passing the bill. so what should you know for the week coming up? the supreme court is considering a case that could have wide ramifications for consumers when it comes to the routine arbitration agreement most of us blindly agree to in nearly all aspects of daily life that involves terms of agreement and other fine print. at issue is whether corporations, in this case american express, can prevent merchants from seeking damages through litigation as part of their credit card contracts. you should know that the merchants, backed by the obama administration, say a ruling in favor of american express would

prevent consumers and small businesses from banding together to pursue antitrust claims. the u.s. government is planning to push forward with a full prosecution and trial against private bradley manning, not offered a plea deal, pled guilty to 10 of the 22 faces he's charges he's facing for leaking documents to wikileaks. military prosecutors intend to try manning on a number of much more serious charges including aiding the enemy and violating the espionage act which carries a life in prison and no chance of parole. manning said before the court, quote, i wanted everyone wanted to know no everyone in iraq needs to be penalized. you should know that after 1,008 days in prison and more to come it's harder and harder view what the government is doing to

bradley manning as anything other than a punitive demonstration for others who might be tempted to expose the government's embarrassing secrets. finally you should know as people change their institutions change with them. some of the dame danish muslims and muslim groups that helped ignite outrage on cartoons of muhammad in 2006 are recanting and coming to defense of one of the virulent and viral critics, anti-islam writer lars hedegaard was shot at. copenhagen society regrets its role in whipping up outrage over the cartoon and said political and religious violence is totally unacceptable. you should know they are right. let's find out what my guests think they will know for the week coming up beginning with you, brian stevenson. >> talking a lot about voting rights case and today is the anniversary of the historic march from selma to montgomery. 6 million people have lost the right to vote because of a criminal conviction. we permanently people from

voting even after they paid their debt to society and violated no other laws. it's dramatic, has a huge impact in florida, 1.5 million people, half a million african-americans, state like virginia, a quarter million african-americans lost their rights to vote. this is a civil rights issue. 30% of all black men have permanently lost the right to vote. it's a critical issue if we're going to be honest about voting rights. >> you show know on march 27th our nation's temporary federal budget will expire, another hyped fiscal deadline for sure so it's an opportunity. a plan that would be wildly popular with the american public and would also reduce deficits which we know is at the top of washington's agenda list right now so here it is. make strategic cuts to the military. we're talking about cutting waste and actually tailoring our forces to 21st century threats. then deal with health care costs. i'm not talking about cutting benefits. i'm talking about changing the

way we pay for health care, from fee-for-service to pay for performance, and then close tax loopholes. no reason that anybody should get a tax deduction for buying a second or third home and buying a yacht and calling it a home. finally spend more on education. spend more on infrastructure investment and roads and bridges and schools across this country to give the economy the boost that it needs right now. >> david? >> you should know that the best way to understand the sequestration is not to think back to clinton and gingrich which, of course, everyone is going to tell, the clinton/gingrich showdown. think back to a most recent example california. what's happened in california is they were basically forced into a sequestration because they had big budget deficits. governor jerry brown essentially allowed the cuts to go forward in order to then make the case for tax increases. they now have a surplus and he is one of the most popular governors in that state in recent history. >> roberto? >> you should know that attorney general eric holder will be making an announcement on the

colorado and washington marijuana laws, and he says he's going to consider the quote, unquote international ramifications so we should be looking for what he says about the 60,000 dead in mexico, the other thousands of dead in colombia, the failure of a $1 trillion drug war since 1971 and its international ramifications denounced by presidents throughout the heems feamispher >> i'd like to thank all my guests. thank you all and thank you for joining us. back next week saturday and sunday at 8:00 eastern time. coming up next is melissa harris-perry. wall street profits are up and bank profits are back to near record territory and the trial for the bp oil spill is under way. that and women's history month here on "mhp." we'll see you back here next weekend. [ male announcer ] research suggests cell health

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