divisive rhetoric surrounding it be understood to provide an excuse for discrimination. reading those words today i know now even worse than providing an excuse for discrimination, the law, itself, is discriminatory. it should be overturned. in the op-ped he paints his support of doma. it seems strange to speak of signing a discriminatory law in order to prevent a more discriminatory law. as the first president to advocate for gay rights he was forced po play defense. a president far ahead of american sentiment on a third rail social issue like gay rights was vulnerable. he had not planned to make gays in the military a major first-term initiative but was maneuvered into it in '93. when he tried to change the military so gays could serve openly, he was forced to retreat to don't ask, don't tell, a bad compromise but a step forward. after losing that battle clinton was gun shy about pushing

america. clinton's adviser agay rights paints a white house deeply and passionately engaged on policy, forced to sign it or reveal himself a supporter of gay marriage at a time when most americans found that idea repelling. many advisers in the white house were afraid if clinton vetoed doma he would lose to dole in '96. clinton signed doma into law with no joy. it is recalled, there are no pictures of this occasion, no pens that were saved. of course, doma had a more negative impact on gay families than anticipated. by playing defense he kept us from getting worse on gay rights and preserved his place in the white house so we could have other accomplishments like a hate crime statute that included gays in an executive order. if american history has been a slow march toward expanding history, that march has not always been straight. obama wouldn't have been in position to repeal don't ask, don't tell. i suspect clinton did the best he could though he lost some

battles, he still helped the gay rights movement to reach this movement when they appear close to winning the war. as any sports fan knows, defense wins championship. for a man who never plays defense, just plows straight ahead every day. >> that's it. >> martin bashir. >> thank you. good afternoon, it's monday the 11th day of march. don't tell paul ryan that. he still thinks it's monday november the 5th and he and his mate mitt romney are about to win the presidential election. >> our businesses have created jobs every month for three years straight. nearly 6.4 million new jobs in all. >> we'd say we'd get rid of obama care and apply the savings to medicare. >> get rid of obama care. get rid of obama care. get rid of obama care. we're going to get rid of this medicare by repealing obama care. stop picking winners and losers. winners and losers. stop picking winners and losers.

>> are you saying as part of your budget you would assume the repeal of obama care? >> yes. >> that's not going to happen. >> we need our democrat colleagues to get serious. get serious. get serious. get serious. >> surely you can't be serious. >> yes. our budget does promote repealing obama care. >> surely you can't be serious. >> i want to explore the question as to whether there's the basis for a compromise here. i have to say, i don't hear it so far. >> i am serious. and don't call me shirley. we begin with the battle of the budgets with blueprints in both parties out this week setting tax and spending targets for the entire federal government. and the man with the republican plan, the former vp hopeful with an all-star role in this debt reduction drama, republican house budget chairman

congressman paul ryan. ryan will roll out his 2014 budget tuesday, a plan to wipe out the deficit in ten years, featuring bold, fresh ideas like repealing the affordable care act. >> are you saying that as part of your budget, you would repeal, you assume the repeal of obama care? >> yes. >> well, that's not going to happen. >> well, we believe it should. >> yes, you heard right. even fox news is skeptical about that one. but, okay, at least mr. ryan is sticking to his big guns about opposing the affordable care act. except, hang on. what about that $700 billion in obama care medicare cuts that ryan and romney campaigned so hard against in 2012? do you remember that? >> medicare should not be used as a piggy bank for obama care. medicare should be the promise made to our current seen wrnios

period, end of story. >> apparently aiming to anger just about everybody and make no sense whatsoever, ryan's budget also has a $770 billion cut to medicaid over the next ten years. along with the medicaid voucher program the democrats ran against and defeated in 2012. ryan admits his budget takes advantage of higher taxes that the president won as part of the debt ceiling deal and keeps the savings from the health care reform that it wants to overturn. confused? we are. so as long as ryan is picking and choosing winners and losers to get his budget down to a lean, mean machine, how about those prospects for a big deficit reduction grand bargain after the president hosted paul ryan for lunch on thursday? >> do you think that his so-called charm offensive is sincere? that he's really looking for compromises on issues that still seem like there's a big divide, or do you think it's more

political theater to at least appear to be reaching out? >> i think the answer to that question will be determined based on how he conducts himself in the coming weeks and months. >> i see. so it's mr. ryan who will be watching to give a gold star or a demerit to the president of the united states. meanwhile, as the president prepares to meet with house republicans on wednesday, there are no signs of any of homthem giving one inch on added revenue. more on this, congressman keith ellison, democrat of minnesota joins us now. good afternoon, sir. >> thank you, psir. >> thanks for joining us. we know vice president ryan likes to wax fantastical about his political position and marathon achievements and running times. now it seems he's balancing the budget with all kinds of mythical math, including eliminating the affordable care act, which as chris wallace likes to say, is not going to happen. didn't we just have an election, sir? or am i dreaming?

>> well, the supreme court said it was legal that congress passed it and that people of the united states said that the guy whose signature is on the affordable care act is the winner of the election. so why we're doing this retread is a little difficult to understand. but, of course, we do understand. paul ryan represents a point of view that wants to shrink government to the size when you can drown it in the bathtub. he does not believe government has any role in making sure that the american people have access to health care. and he's an extreme free marketeer. to that extent, at least he's honest, at least he's being consistent with what he's always maintained. >> but what mr. ryan is proposing is no new revenues, no cuts in pentagon spending, but big changes to medicare and medicaid, plus massive cuts to social programs. how is that a balanced approach? and doesn't mr. ryan behave as

if he's still fighting the presidential election? does he not realize that the president won because he offered a balanced approach? it was not one that would simply lay the burden on the poor. >> i think that paul ryan is not fighting for the next election. he's fighting for the next generation. >> he's fighting for the last election. >> well, you know, martin, i think that paul ryan and people who are like him have a very austere vision of what this country should look like, and it includes great privileges for the most well-to-do and desperation and despair for the overwhelming majority. you know, look, three quarters of all americans don't have a college degree. the average income is about $56,000. what does his budget do for those folks in that category? nothing. it takes from them. it increases the expenses that they incur. it takes away important

government services that they depend on, and it makes life harder for them. for the very, very well-to-do, his budget is going to be, you know, more privileges for the people who already have plenty. and so i guess my position is, we are in a defining moment of american history where the american people need to step up and argue for a budget that's going to help the 100%, not just the 1%. >> congressman -- >> because his budget is a 1% budget. >> congressman, did it not strike you as utterly disingenuous for mr. ryan to rail against the president wanting to raise taxes during the fiscal cliff fight? but now he says, i'm quoting him, we don't have to do things because of the new baseline, meaning i'm going to exploit the president's leadership even though i opposed everything he proposed. >> absolutely, but i think that -- >> it's comedic, sir. it's not even subtle. it's ridiculous. >> i agree, martin.

i think it is, but i guess when i read this budget, you know, i just see them projecting a vision for this country. now, you know, on the other hand, you know, we have a budget with the progressive caucus called the back to work budget. the linchpin of our budget is not deficit reduction but job creation. we, our back to work budget puts 7 million people back to work next year by doing things that the country desperately needs like invest in infrastructure and support police, fire and public works employees. we've lost 600,000 public employees, and the people need -- we need teachers. we need folks fixing the roads. we need law enforcement. and so that's what the back to work budget does, but for the folks watching this show, i guess what i want to say is, these people are projecting a vision of america and so is the president, the democrats and the progressive caucus, and the american people got to make a

choice about which way they want to go. we should understand that rich countries have poor people. and poor countries have rich people. and the way that the ryan budget will work its way on our country is we're going to have a country with a tiny elite minority with a vast ocean of desperate people with no health care. and i think we need to know that. we're heading toward a vision, if ryan had his way, of senior citizens being in conditions they were in before we had medicare, medicaid and social security. which is extreme difficulty. older people used to be the poorest people in america. now they're not because americans stepped forward and did something about it. >> congressman keith ellison, thank you, sir, for joining us. >> thank you, martin. >> thank you, sir. next, strike three. maybe jeb bush should have read the new book on immigration that he's selling. stay with us. >> who's the hottest florida politician right now?

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when the president meets with senate republicans thursday, they already have one legislative goal that may well be in sight. the "l.a. times" is reporting a bipartisan group of senators is close to a deal on immigration reform and the path to citizenship. undocumented workers would need to register with the department of homeland security, pay federal income taxes, as well as a fine. still unresolved, however, are issues like how long a worker would need to wait for a green

card, and then, of course, there's the gop insistence that we're not spending enough on enhanced border security. for more, let's bring in lily gilvaletta, a hispanic marketing expert. and in washington, democratic strategist julian epstein. welcome to you, both. julian, i have to put this to you, and you have some experience of this kind of negotiation. what happens in the senate, whatever happens in the senate, the president meets with house republicans wednesday. is there a majority of republican votes in the house that are willing to support any kind of path to citizenship? >> i think at the end of the day, as a matter of political necessity, the house republicans will pass this. you'll get a lot that vote against it, but i think you will get this passed. i think we're getting close to this being a done deal at this point. the irony to me, martin, is this is almost exactly the same debate that we've been having since 2005 right after bush 43 was elected. but at that time, the extremist wing of the republican party,

and until recently, forbid the republicans from moving on the path to citizenship. >> right. >> now they realize with mitt romney getting 28% of the hispanic vote, bush got 41%, this is kamikaze politics. and there is an important lesson for this for the republican party. if they let policy be dictated to them by the extremist wing or the kamikaze wing of the republican party, not only will they do the brand considerable damage, as they have for the last eight years with the hispanic community, but they'll accomplish nothing from a policy point of view because republicans now, at the end of the day, are probably going to get the same bill they would have gotten in 2005, but they've just flogged themselves for eight years now by resisting this in an unreasonable way. >> lily, there are a lot of conservatives out there as you know that still believe that immigrants are living off welfare and government handouts and government largess. something john mccain found out about at a town hall last month. do you think telling these people, again, the truth, which apparently this deal does, will have any effect?

>> you know, i go back to the numbers. i love numbers. and when we look at who makes up the illegal population, half of them came to this country legally and were documented. i came here with a student visa, suitcase and pocket translator. after earning my degree in the united states, really had a way to stay and get a job as a student that graduated in the united states. that would have made me an illegal immigrant. there are many of those out there which is nonsense. you cannot throw one big definition to all immigrants because we are not all the same. and that's why reform needs to happen and it's an overhaul. because patching it here and there is not going to cut it. >> julian, let's talk jeb bush for a moment. he's not had a good last few days, as you know. first it was his flip-flops on a path to citizenship. he was both for it and against it like a one-man episode of "cross fire." on sunday, he was asked about his brother's legacy as president, and this is fabulous.

here is jeb bush's response. >> do you think that there is any bush baggage? do you think that would be a problem? >> no. i don't think there's any bush baggage at all. i love my brother. i'm proud of his accomplishments. i love my dad. i am proud to be a bush. >> julian, that is a point on wish jeb bush absolutely needs to flip-flop. what will voters say to a candidate who says he's proud of george w. bush's accomplishments? even though most conservatives are not proud of them? >> well, i would quote the words of a famous florida governor who just the other day said, what are you smoking? in an interview that occurred subsequently. i mean, the idea that the country, that he does not have bush baggage, when the country is climbing out of two very unpopular wars and the worst recession since last depression, is laughable. you, the only response is, what are you smoking? i think, you know, john kennedy

wrote a very important book when he was running for president "while england slept." i think we're beginning to see the death of political books as springboard for running for presidency. rick perry wrote a book calling social security a ponzi scheme. mitt romney wrote a book talking about massachusetts being model for health care reform. those all came back to bit him. bush on question of immigration had more positions than a game of twister. what we are seeing in his flip-flop on immigration, just to parlay it back, is this kind of cognitive dissidence the republican party is experiencing right now. one minute, oh, no, we can't be for a path to citizenship because it's bad for base politics, we can't get elected in primaries. the next moment, that kind of kamikaze politics is really bad for the general election. this is the modern day republican party who can't figure out whether or not the inmates are in charge of the asylum and why the party has major brand problems right now. >> lili, you read jeb bush's book. >> i'm almost done. 80% there. >> right. and your reaction to it, briefly? >> you know, what's interesting, he points out six very practical

points on how to go about immigration reform. so it's like the first half of it is very promising. then when we get into the extreme rule of law and trying to go back into, you know what, we just cannot reward criminal actions, then it's when it goes back into calling of us immigrants criminals. there's good things here, and back to what's happening now. unless we go back to the core values of this country and rekindle our immigrant spirit, it's not going to get fixed. may be good things here. fantastic eight may have another one. republicans, democrats, let's just do it. we cannot be afraid of an extreme right base that will then take us back to the dark ages. everything broke since ellis island. we're trying to fix it. >> lili gil valetta, julian epstein. thanks very much. stay with us. we have much more ahead. >> i don't think there's any bush baggage at all. i love my brother. i'm proud of his accomplishments. >> fool me once, shame on --

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our fastest way to return your car. just note your mileage and zap ! you're outta there ! we'll e-mail your receipt in a flash, too. it's just another way you'll be traveling at the speed of hertz. we are less than 24 hours until the catholic church will begin its traditional and somewhat mysterious process for selecting a new pope. 115 cardinal electors will begin their deliberations under the magnificent frescos of the sistine chapel. and after a tsunami of scandals ranging from child sexual abuse to financial corruption, this could be the opportunity that the catholic church needs to reinvigorate its ministry and restore its reputation. joining us now from the vatican is my colleague, chris jansing, host of msnbc's "jansing & company." chris, good to see you. it's tough to get any access as you know to any of the cardinals because they vowed not to talk to the press.

it would appear roman cardinals are reportedly considering an outsider while the so-called reformers may rally around an italian card know by the name of angelo scola. is there not a temptation, in your view, to consider a cardinal perhaps from the african continent? >> reporter: interesting, martin, your use of the word temptation when we're talking about a group of cardinals. what's happening in rome is absolutely fas thcinatfascinati. 2 1/2 months ago when pope benedict stepped down, if you asked people about the possibility of a pope from africa, you would have heard talk about a cardinal from ghana, another from kenya. now they're barely talked about. you have 67 of 115 of the cardinals never voted in a conclave before. they were appointed by pope benedict. many don't know each other. some of them have been cardinals less than a year. the last couple weeks has been a

chance for them to get to know each other, to talk to each other. you can feel the ground shifting beneath you. this is an absolutely open conclave, but i think people are being surprised right now that groups are coalescing around the italian you mentioned, scola. if you can believe it, martin, three north americans including two from the united states. >> now, we know that we should look for white smoke emerging from the chimney to announce a decision, but how long do you think this process is likely to take? >> reporter: that's the $6 million question, but there is some consensus among vote can watchers, and it is this. friday, friday they think will be the time when some of the people who came out early but were voted on just as sort of a, you know, vote to give them a little bit of a pat on the back, they go back and consider more seriously and then some of the others get whittled away.

they're talking about potentially a mass for the new pope on tuesday, st. joseph's day. most of the people i talked to, i talked to three vatican insiders in the last hour. most of them say friday. nobody knows what's going to happen in there. this is the most wide open conclave, arguably, we have seen in modern times. >> wow. so there may well be a pope in time for easter. msnbc's chris jansing. chris, thanks so much. >> reporter: sure. stay with us. the day's top lines are coming up. we're here! we're going to the park! [ gina ] oh hey, dan! i really like your new jetta! and you want to buy one like mine because it's so safe, right? yeah... yeah... i know what you've heard -- iihs top safety pick for $159 a month -- but, i wish it was more dangerous, like a monster truck or dune buggy! you can't have the same car as me! [ male announcer ] now everyone's going to want one. let's get a jetta. [ male announcer ] volkswagen springtoberfest is here and there's no better time to get a jetta. that's the power of german engineering. right now lease one of

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party leadership i'm a brave maverick. >> i treat senator mccain with respect. i don't always get the same in return. >> rand paul filibuster was completely awesome. >> when i'm talking on others, then he's just an angry old man. >> completely awesome. >> former florida governor jeb bush. >> governor. >> governor. >> thanks, george. >> why have you changed? >> latinos. >> i haven't changed. i don't think there's bush baggage at all. i love my brother. ♪ call george bush the devil when you spoke at the u.n. ♪ >> i think history will be kind to george w. bush. >> who's the hottest florida politician right now? is it you or mark rco rubio? >> man, you are crack addicts. heroin addicts. is that better? >> they believe in something. >> working. >> they closed the white house to tours but the first lady can have a giant expensive party with adele. just seemed wrong. >> they meet, and everybody makes a big deal out of them

meeting and in the meantime our nation is going to hell. >> there will be more contentious debate and honest disagreement. >> wait a minute, i'm going to start being nice to the republican leaders. >> do you think his so-called charm offensive is sincere? >> the answer to that question will be determined based on how he conducts himself. >> still believe compromise is possible. >> he is moving in the right direction. i'm proud of him for doing it. >> big question is, what is the president up to? >> as part of your budget, you assume the repeal of obama care? >> yes. >> that's not going to happen. >> we can come together to do big things. >> we come from different perspectives. i ran against him in the last election. >> let's get right to our panel. we're joined by msnbc contributor jonathan capehart of the "washington post." steve kornacki, who, of course, is my colleague and co-host of "the cycle" and msnbc director james peterson, director at lehigh university. john, if i might start with you, the president appeared at the gridiron club dinner over the weekend, an annual event that important people in washington put on for charity, and then get up to make lighthearted fun of each other.

of course, the president hadn't been since 2011, so he joked about that. back then, he said, i addressed a number of topics, a dysfunctional congress, a looming budget crisis, complaints that i didn't spend enough time with the press. it's funny, it seems like it was just yesterday." so, jonathan, there's lots of truth spoken, and this one just goes to show how much the establishment in washington has fought this president tooth and nail on just about everything. >> on, yeah, just about everything. it was stunning to read the president's remarks and to realize, like, oh, wait a minute, yeah, nothing has changed. although, having said that, the dinner last week at the jefferson, the lunch between congressman paul ryan and chris van hollen of maryland, the president going to capitol hill tomorrow. these are all things that basically have never happened. and so hopefully, you know, when the president goes back to the gridiron dinner next year,

highly unlikely, if he goes back next year, that set piece that he said this go-round won't be true and that actually he and the republicans on capitol hill will actually have real accomplishments to point to look back on. >> right. i think you may be dreaming. steve, the president is meeting with congressional leaders, and there's a lot riding on it. in fact, in the "washington post" today, and i'm quoting, it says this. "this week could well reveal more than any period since the president was re-elected about whether the white house and congressional republicans can even begin to talk about working toward a landmark deal to brire in the nation's deficit or whether the efforts will, once again, fall short." could it be critical, absolutely critical for this second term? >> i don't think it's this week. i think what happened here is the white house now sort of recognizes they're in a month's long sort of a battle, sort of a game, whatever you want to call

it, and the real end point here is there's going to be this seven month continuing resolution that funds the government. that's the time frame this is going to play out over. the hope from the white house's standpoint is they can reach this grand bargain obama has been looking for for a few years sometime over the course of the next few years. public pressure will mount over the sequester, pressure within the republican party about the defense cuts will mount maybe. what he really needs is an acknowledgement from republicans, at some point, maybe the meetings can bring it about. i don't know what's behind this. acknowledgement from republicans, they like to say obama will not be serious about the spending problem, will not talk about entitlements or take his own party. acknowledgement from republicans he has put a plan out there. he's actually taken on entitlements. >> isn't that their failure? >> exactly which i think suggests there's probably something else sort of in the water so to speak in the republican party. you know, this is a party that would not compromise with president obama in the last congress and so far nothing has

really changed. they're going to compromise with him on taxes, spending, on the safety net. >> the republican capacity to blame the president for everything and anything seems to have no limit. professor, that's true. even among republicans, you might otherwise suspect of being above that kind of thing. for example, former florida governor jeb bush. take a listen. >> what do you mean when you say he divided the country? >> i think basic part of his campaign was that those who were successful weren't paying their fair show even though we have incredibly high taxes for high-income americans. he, i think he ran a campaign of them and us, and it was quite effective. that somehow the republicans don't care about the large number of people. >> now, professor, former governor bush says that we had, quote, incredibly high taxes on the wealthy. which i'm not sure the public agreed with him on that one. he's also overlooking the fact most americans blamed his own brother, george w. bush, for

state of the economy on election day last year. those are the statistics. so isn't this just another example of a republican failing to face reality an why his party continues to lose presidential elections? >> you know, we've come to expect a little bit more from jeb bush because he's been a more moderate republican in the public sphere. once you enter into the fray of republican presidential politics, it makes some of these potential candidates go a little kra crazy as we saw last year. how can you make the comments in the context of the 47% being the defining phraseology of the republican presidential candidacy and the republican presidential process? i mean, if you want to talk about divisive politics, look at obstructionism in the congress right now. so i think a reality check in order here, but those of us who cover these things and pay attention to it know unfortunately once you enter into the presidential realm for some of these republican

candidates, things get a little bit haywire with reality. >> john, following up on what professor peterson just said there, he's right, isn't he? it wasn't the president who said the 47% of the nation are takers? it wasn't the president who went around describing the nation divided between moochers and those who actually make things in this nation, was it? >> right, no. it wasn't at all. that was all come from, you know, governor bush's party. you know, to pick up on what professor peterson was just saying, yeah, when republicans get into the national political fray, they tend to go, as you said, crazy. i think it's the problem of the primary process. someone who is a fantastic primary candidate in the republican party will be a disaster on the national stage and vice versa. someone like chris christie or others who people would love to see run in a national campaign. i would love to see chris christie get into the presidential campaign, because quite frankly, i'm not sure he can make it through the republican primary process

because he's not nearly as right wing as the republican primary voters are. >> steve, going back to that jeb bush comment, it was the president that divided the nation. >> right. exactly. i think, take his comments and, now, what is he? he's a politician who potentially wants to run for the republican nomination in 2016. so he reflects in a lot of ways the attitudes of the republican party. that's what he's expressing. i think what we can see, since the election, if you look at where the republican party has e involved since november, there's been movement on immigration, a little movement, there might be, on guns. i think where they're really drawing the absolute hard line they drew for the last four years is on the question of taxes, the question of the safety net and basic size and scope of the federal government. they're still married to the exact same posture, exact same rhetoric they ran on last year and they've tried to govern on for last number of years. until that changes, a guy like a jeb bush can't sit down and say anything but what he said in that interview. >> wow. and they did lose the election. >> and they lost. right. >> thank you, jonathan capehart,

steve kornacki, and professor james peterson. coming up, lean in. lean out. the facebook c.o.o. with equal parts likes and dislikes. stay with us. >> i'm not suggesting women aren't ambitious. plenty of women are as ambitious as men. what i'm saying unequivocally and unapologetically, the data is clear when it comes to ambition to lead, to be the leader of whatever you're doing, men, boys outnumber girls and women. today is gonna be an important day for us. you ready? we wanna be our brother's keeper. what's number two we wanna do? bring it up to 90 decatherms. how bout ya, joe? let's go ahead and bring it online. attention on site, attention on site. now starting unit nine. some of the world's cleanest gas turbines are now powering some of america's biggest cities.

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bold makes sure you'll never have to ask him again. we replaced people with a machine.r, what? customers didn't like it. so why do banks do it? hello? hello?! if your bank doesn't let you talk to a real person 24/7, you need an ally. hello? ally bank. your money needs an ally. whether it's leaders in business or politics, in the year 2013 a major question remains. where are the women? among fortune 500 companies, just 21 have women at the helm. in congress, fewer than one in five seats are held by women. and in her new book "lean in"

facebook c.o.o. sheryl sandberg asks what's missing in women's will to power. >> i'm not suggesting women aren't ambitious. plenty of women are as ambitious as men. what i am saying unequivocally and unapologetically that the data is clear when it comes to ambition to lead, to be the leader of whatever you're doing, men, boys outnumber girls and women. >> for more on this i'm joined by angela rye, political strategist and principal of impact strategies. angela, sheryl sandberg says women have a tendency to internalize all the negative messages and start to discriminate against themselves by not reaching out for opportunities. but is it really fair to suggest women, themselves, are to blame when you have rampant workplace discrimination and appalling fact the woman earns 77 cents for every $1 a man makes? that has nothing to do with

women, does it? >> martin, it has a lot to do with equal opportunity or the lack thereof in this country. i think that when you just take a look at what's before the supreme court right now with the fisher case, and university of texas and the fact that affirmative action programs are absolutely on the line as being unconstitutional now. that is an open door that will be closed to students of color. so when you're talking about not only unequal earning, earning potential of women, or the fact that with hillary clinton in the 2008 election, she talked about shattering the glass ceiling. there is certainly an opportunity issue here, and part of it is not, or doesn't have anything to do with women or their ability or their ambition. it has to do with access and an open door. if there's no open door, i guess we are to build one and then walk through that. >> i guess. >> there are a lot of dynamics here, martin. >> right. we all remember in 2008 when then-senator obama told hillary

clinton, you're likable enough, and that touched a raw nerve for a lot of women. take a listen to sheryl sandberg on this particular topic. >> as women get more successful, they are less liked by men and women. as men get more successful, they are better liked. when we look at what happens, why more women don't lead, why we don't have a woman president, well, it's because you have to be liked to be promoted. >> now, angela, that's a valid point, but hillary clinton left the state department remarkably well liked and well respected round the world. so do you think this sexist dislike for women in power may, in fact, be changing following mrs. clinton's work at the state department? >> well, i don't think it's just limited to secretary clinton's work at the state department, but i do think that will certainly help. i think the likability factor applies to women and to men. i think what counts as a factor toward whether or not you're

liked may be different. is that fair? no. but i think it's the reality of the world. so what are we to do in changing that? secretary clinton went into the state department, drilled down, focused on her mission which was to ensure that the united states was well represented all over the world. and she focused on that with a laser focus. and i think that we have a lot to do in terms of ensuring that we're not only doing our work but we are making sure that the decisions that we make, particularly as women leaders, not only impact people in a way that makes sense but that the way in which we communicate them also makes sense. i think during the 2008 election, secretary clinton, then-presidential candidate clinton had other issues relative to the campaign that contributed to the likability factor. >> now, angela, our show wouldn't exist without the smart contributions of women like yourself. without karen finney, joy read,

k krystal ball. the producer of this segment. we don't have a broadcast. what else can we do practically to improve work circumstances for women? >> first of all, thank you for that compliment. that's major. i appreciate it. i think we continue to have this kind of dialogue, martin. we talk about the issues that impact working mothers. that, you know, for african-american women being the head of the household for some. and being a single mother. we talk about issues as it relates to women, as sheryl sandberg put it, who are trying to scale that corporate ladder and have other things they're thinking about like maybe wanting to be married one day. just having an open dialogue is certainly the first step, and i think you're doing a great job of that, martin. thank you. >> angela, you are, and we're grateful to you. thank you so much. >> thank you. next, the gun violence debate from a slightly different perspective. but first, hampton pearson has the cnbc market wrap. good afternoon, hampton. >> how you doing, martin? another day, another record close.

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[ angry gibberish ]

today, democrats in colorado are taking a historic step following the massacre at sandy hook elementary school. voting on three common sense measures to curb gun violence. two have passed, but if all three get to the desk of the state's democratic governor, john hickenlooper, colorado would become the second state of new york where lawmakers have enacted major gun law reforms since the tragedy in newtown. but, of course, lawmakers aren't the only ones who joined this fight. our next guest, a citizen journalist from philadelphia, has shown that anyone with a camera and access to the internet can enlist.

day in and day out, his widely acclaimed blog, guncrisis.org, gives you a street-level look at the scourge of gun violence. and how it shapes the lives of children, families and entire communities who remain locked in its deadly grip. so let's welcome jim macmillan, co-founder of guncrisis.org. and former photographer for the "philadelphia tadaily news." what motivated you of taking this step of a photographic archive of shootings? why did you do it? >> you know, since i moved to philadelphia close to 25 years ago, nearly 10,000 people have been shot to death. i got frustrated with the constant, but had the same frustration not knowing what to do that many of us suffer. the catalyst for this project was a workshop led by the center for journalism and trauma where i'm a fellow based in columbia. they held a workshop in philadelphia on best practices on reporting on youth violence. about a year and a half ago. a few months later it developed

into this. the only other thing i'd like to add, it's not just me. it's a team of award winning photographers. >> absolutely. i've looked at the pictures, jim. they really are tremendous. now, on average, one person in philadelphia has been killed by a gun every day for the last 25 years. one thing your blog does is show how this violence becomes part of the fabric of daily life for so many children. so i have to ask you, what happens to these kids? these children who have to live with this level of violence day in and day out? >> well, it's pretty difficult to summarize, but the problem of living with the violence is among many of the problems living in poor parts of cities like philadelphia. but we're aware that there is sometimes a cycle of traumaization to perpetration of crime, and we learned we can disrupt that with certain

therapies and other initiatives. >> what do you think, jim, is the best way to decrease the amount of shootings? decrease the level of violence? should we look at it as primarily a political issue? or do you see this as a public health issue that needs a broader strategy? >> well, i think it's all of the above. an amenable to anything that works. if you look at the availability of guns in terms of supply and demand, the gun rights debate or gun control debate is about limiting the supply of guns. our strategies are to focus on innovative solutions, innovative alternatives to reduce the demand for guns to make feel people less often like they need to carry a gun and less often likely need to pull the trigger. there are public health programs in philadelphia, in other cities that have shown double-digit reductions in gun violence from year to year, but they're small. they need more support. there are other innovations in criminalnolo

criminology in recent years. we need to focus on the most violent offenders and not lock up everybody in sight. and we've got an open source approach to anything that will work. i recently saw, read an article about a technology that might disable all weapons from firing in places that we agree are gun-free zones such as schools and shopping malls and so on. >> jim macmillan, thank you so much for joining us and thank you for doing what you can to draw attention to the terrible effects of gun violence in our country. thank you, sir. >> thank you so much. >> and we'll be right back. essi. my insurance company told me not to talk to people like you. you always do what they tell you? no... try it, and see what your good driving can save you. you don't even have to switch. unless you're scared. i'm not scared, it's... you know we can still see you. no, you can't. pretty sure we can... try snapshot today -- no pressure.

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