investment objectives, risks, charges and expenses. read and consider it carefully before investing. risk includes possible loss of principal. that was the moment today when the eyes of the world were on the vatican. when cardinal jorge bergoglio walked out as pope francis i, leading the world's 1 billion cat licks. late today president obama released a statement saying, "michelle and i offer our warm wishes to his holiness pope francis. as a champion of the poor and the most vulnerable among us he carries forth the message of love and compassion that has inspired the world for more than

2,000 years." vice president biden will lead the u.s. delegation to the vatican for the formal ceremony making the pope's installation. pope francis is the first pope from the americas. he's the first to take his papal name from st. francis. the friar who more than 800 years ago took a vow of poverty and devoted his life to helping the poor and the sick. in fact, pope francis is known as a humble man of simple habits. the ap says he often rode the public bus to work, cooked his own meals, and often visited poor neighborhoods. francis is also the first pope to come from the jets with order, an order with a long tradition in work and civil rights in this country. this new pope has a unique ability to focus the world's attention on the sick and the

poor. the wrongs we inflict on each other and the rights we hold as human beings. let us pray for his success. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. hope for the pope. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. let me start tonight with the election of a new pope. it brings with it a great hope and not just for catholics. promises a progressive church. he's a jesuit. francis i is a jesuit from argentina. he's known for throwing off the trappings and the perks of power. living in a small apartment. taking the bus to work. the new pope has said things about capitalism and its failure to deliver economic justice that could drive the right wing nuts. he's the living illustration for what i've learned of the belief free markets need to be offset

by an active social justice toward those in need. this is the catholic church that looks out for the poor, that distances itself from power and wealth, that is skeptical that capitalism will raise all. that the poor can count on the wealth of the rich to trickle down to the people living in the barrios. big surprise in rome tonight. the cardinals picked a jesuit. someone from the americas. someone who identifies with the poor. and those who don't get a break from sharp-elbowed capitalism. i find this fascinating and enormously surprising. francis i. i like him already. we're going to have a big tussle here, by the way, later in this half hour by a pair of political heavyweights, robert gibbs for the dems and steve schmidt for the republicans. but let's start with the politics and drama of the stunning election in the vatican. my guests are mike barnicle and george weigel, nbc news vatican analyst. i want to start with mike. as a fellow american generalist and a catholic, what is your -- how surprised were you by picking this guy known for social justice and for humility

and for really looking out for the little people to use the phrase we often use? >> well, you know, chris, i was -- i was actually stunned by two things. and one i had forgotten. i had forgotten about the theater of the church. the explosion of people in st. peter's square. the universality of the church. the fact that not everyone in st. peter's square was catholic. and the fact that the curia, college of cardinals, selected a jesuit as our next pope to me was very surprising. and very encouraging, actually. despite the fact he's 76 years of age, a little older than i think a lot of american catholics expected the next pope to be in terms of age, he is a jesuit. and in terms of what the jesuits are and what they profess, the faith that they have, the faith that they preach, the faith that they practice, social justice. economic justice. not hiding from the realities of economic inequality. not only in argentina and latin america but around the world. specifically in the united

states. i think the pope's voice is going to be a strong one. he's going to put an oar in that water. he's going to be rowing against the current that exists right now. but he is the pope and his voice will be heard. i'm very encouraged by that aspect of his papacy. >> george, thanks for coming on. you're the expert. i really liked him immediately. that first impression, the guy, just little things. the way he was not taking instruction from the people who were choreographing him. he said, give me this now. do this now. he seemed to be calling the shots right from the get-go. maybe that's an overinterpretation, but it's the way i saw it tonight. >> no, i think that's right, chris. i spent an hour with cardinal bergoglio in buenos aires last may. the first thing that needs to be said about this man is that he's a true man of god. this is someone with a very deep and rich spiritual life. he is all that you are saying about his humility, his simplicity. i would not jump to any conclusions about his politics.

he's been very critical of the government in argentina. he is also a jesuit who is something of a contradiction within the jesuit order. he was the provincial of the jesuits in argentina. he was a man of what i would call dynamic orthodoxsy. that did not sit too well with many of his more left leaning colleagues. he was sent off to teach chemistry at a jesuit high school in northern argentina. from which he was rescued by john paul ii. and that's the next thing that needs to be said here. this is a j.p. ii guy. this is a man very much formed by the pontificate of john paul ii who loved him to pieces. i think we're going to see a little bit more of that in this pontificate as it goes forward. the name francis is obviously very suggestive of a church of real compassion for the

underdog. which doesn't necessarily translate into any particular political or economic program. but does suggest that this guy is going to take a little bit of the baroque gilding off of the papacy. >> michael, back to you. first of all, let's start with the notion here that the encyclical of looking out for -- skepticism towards capitalism. when i read that in his brief life description here, i was taken with the fact that he -- i know he may not be a dorothy day catholic. but he may well be someone who does have that usual church suspicion of capitalism. a lot of our popes have had that suspicion through the 20th century. they're not ayn rand people. they don't buy the marketplaces, the great arbiter of what's good in the world. >> you know, off of the -- and we've only known the pope now in terms of him being pope, what, two hours. but he is remindful, at least to me, of an argentinian virgin of

cardinal o'malley from boston. >> yeah. >> he's filled with humility. i agree with george. i think we don't want to misread or misinterpret or interpret too early his politics. but the fact is that he does stand for social justice. he is a jesuit. and we have not -- and he stands on behalf of victims. victims of all sorts of things. victims of economic injustice. victims of social inequality. victims of racial inequality. and even sexual inequality. he has, i think, addressed that in part. not, i think, many american catholics hoping for a more progressive view of catholicism are going to be disappointed. but we're going to let this play out. we're going to hear this man speak. i was greatly encouraged by one small thing that happened this afternoon. in that he asked for silent prayer. he didn't stand and issue his own prayer. he asked for silent prayer. we had the millions of people

there in st. peter's square and perhaps around the world watching invoking their own silent prayer. >> let me go to george on the jesuits. i'm a jesuit trained guy with the holy cross. i love the guys of georgetown, the priests over there that are still there. we're losing a lot of jesuits. we don't have as many as we used to have. they're thoughtful. they're intellectual. they're deeply religious. but they sort of are in their own ways fascinating people. and -- because they chose this life. >> yeah. chris, a couple of things. first, let's just go back a second to something mike said. one of the other things that cardinal bergoglio has steadfastly resisted is the creeping left-wing authoritarianism of the kirchner government in argentina. i tried to send him a book as a gift after i came back from meeting him last may. the book came back a month later "addressee unknown." i sent the book to him through a private source.

he then sent me a note saying, i'm sorry for the inconvenience. but i'm sure you understand. >> what did you make of that? >> which, indeed, i did. well, his mail was being intercepted by the government, obviously. on the point of his jesuit background, this is a classic, old school jesuit. a man of serious intellectual discipline and capacity. a man of real spiritual discipline. we've talked about already what a humble guy he is. how simply he lives. he used to take the tram to work in buenos aires. rubbing elbows with the folks. that's who he is. there's no put-on about that. so i think there's going to be a real simplification of papal style here. and that's no bad thing in a church close to 65% of which now lives in the global south.

that's a pope that those people can relate to. his first big public test will come this summer when he goes to brazil for world youth day. i think he'll be a smashing success there. it'll be an enormous celebration of catholicism in latin america. but let's also remember, this is a guy of the western hemisphere. the papacy has crossed the atlantic. that's a threshold point for the catholic church, and it's something that all of us, i think, on both sides of the rio grande can take a lot of satisfaction in. >> mike, let's talk about the politics of moving to our hemisphere. to the americas. first pope obviously in 2,000 years from the americas. an italian father. definitely a latino. he comes from that part of the world. i was thinking in this country if you're puerto rican or cuban or mexican-american or come here from guatemala or colombia like so many do, you must be thinking pretty big about yourself right now that you've got somebody like you with a spanish background, spanish accent, in

fact, you've got somebody like you from that part of the world as the leader of the entire biggest church in the world. >> sure. and there's another element, too, chris, in addition to that that you just pointed out. it is this, i think. if you view the church as a corporation, and part of the church is a corporation, and if you view the college of cardinals or the curia as the board of directors, and in a sense they are the board of directors, they selected a guy from one of the growth industries in that corporation, latin america. i mean, the huge burgeoning catholic population. the growth of the catholic church in latin america, places like africa and the philippines. far outpaces the growth rather than the deterioration in growth of catholicism in places like europe and north america because of what's happened in the united states over the last 10 or 12 years. so it's progress in terms of moving the product forward. in terms of growing the product. >> i've got the word the vice president is going to be sent over. not the president. that's too bad. joe biden will be a perfect emissary for the country as well as the president. thank you, all.

george weigel, as always, great to have you on msnbc at this time, of course, you are the best. mike barnicle, as always, we think very similarly, therefore brilliantly. back to politics. republicans say they learned the lesson of the 2012 election. so why are they talking about repealing obama care? why are they issues budgets that are more regressive than last year's loser? why are they refusing to confirm president obama's nominees? why do they vote unanimously against any gun control including background checks? in short, why are they doing exactly the things that got them clobbered in november? could it be that they care more about tearing obama down than getting themselves up? plus, the butler did it. or the bartender. actually the man who made the infamous romney 47% tape has come forward. he's going to show himself tonight on ed schultz. he's going to be ed schultz's guest tonight. we're going to talk to ed about that and the surprising reason the bartender made the tape. i don't think it's that surprising. whether he realized he was holding on to political dine night. i think all of those are true. anyway. the senate panel heard grim and disturbing testimony about

prevalence of sexual assaults in our own u.s. military. this is bad stuff. the thousands of cases, only a tiny percentage actually acted on. senator kirsten gillibrand says it's time to change that. she joins us later on "hardball" right here. let me finish tonight, a big surprise the vatican, a pope committed to social justice. that's "hardball," the place for politics. a kite, a breeze, a dunk of grilled cheese. catches and throws, and spaghettio's. a wand, some wings, soup with good things. sidewalks and doodles and wholesome noodles. puddles and pails and yes, puppy dog tails. for a lunch like this, there's a hug and a kiss. because that's what happy kids are made of. campbell's. it's amazing what soup can do.

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welcome back to hardball. the differences between president obama and republicans shows no sign of snare rowing. zero republicans voted to advance the seemingly easiest piece of gun legislation, a background check, zero. no new taxes under any circumstances. yesterday paul reid offered a budget that zeroes out the president's health care plan. texas senator ted cruz even proposed a plan to defund obama care himself. with polls showing the president's approval rating dropping, a "washington post" poll put it at 50%, 5 points from a month ago, republicans have decided to stick to their own playbook, obstruct everywhere, hope some of the mud that covers them sticks to the president. steve schmidt is former senior adviser to the mccain/palin '08 presidential campaign and senior strategist on the bush/cheney '04 presidential campaign. robert gibbs was senior adviser for president obama's 2012

re-election campaign and served as white house press secretary. of course, both are now msnbc colleagues. in fact, analysts as well. thank you. steve, i want to start by throwing some dirt ball at you. i don't know how you're going to catch this one. >> yes. >> as we've all watched for the last two or three months now since the horror at newtown, connecticut, where all those 6 and 7-year-old kids were slaughtered, basically, we've all watched to see what the government's going to do about that. and now we learn the republican senators, to a man, to a woman, i suppose, have voted against not only they're not going to do assault rifles, not going to do the magazines limiting them to ten rounds or whatever, they're not even going to cast one single republican senate vote for stronger background checks. how can your party be completely against gun safety? >> well, it's an issue that i think a lot of democrats also, chris, are toeing the nra line on. you know, my personal view is

that if i was [ inaudible ] i would vote for background checks. i think it's fair to say the national rifle association may be the most powerful group in washington. those republican senators i think are making votes based on their political vulnerabilities or their perceived vulnerabilities in a republican primary. they don't want to lose the "a" rating. they don't want to come under attack from the gun lobby. >> what is that about, robert gibbs? who's the boss? like on the tv show. who's the boss? is la pierre the boss or the republican party its own boss? >> i think you've got republican congressmen that are far more concerned about a primary challenge than they are anybody -- >> these are august u.s. senators, in for six-year terms. they're supposed to be the guys in robes that think deliberately, big picture. they won't touch anything on gun safety. >> i think, look, this is going to be an interesting issue because -- i think it has been for a while. the public supports this at 92%.

if something the public supports 92% can't get through congress i think it does give you a sense of the real structural problems that we have in terms of gridlock. something that is -- >> but they don't -- let me go back to steve. your party doesn't even want to catch the nuts. i mean, it's one thing to say everybody has a right to own a gun. and can be completely pure about it. the second amendment means carry anything you want if you can carry it. but the idea that people have a right to buy a gun if they've got problems. they're criminals, they're wife-beaters, they've got mental, emotional problems that are clearly on the books. they've been ordered by courts to do things like spend time inside. and they still can call up and say, give me the best gun you got with the most rounds and the fastest i can shoot. i mean, why would a republican want to have that position? everybody that wants a gun should get one under any circumstance no matter what the condition of their head or their emotions or their criminal record? >> there are -- there are millions and millions of republican voters out there, chris, who don't share that position. people who support the second

amendment believe you have a right to keep and bear arms. that's constitutionally prescribed. that doesn't mean that the government doesn't have the ability to regulate at some level the purchase of guns and make sure that guns don't wind up in the hands of people who shouldn't have guns. so i think when you see the republican senators make the vote that they made, they're not just on the wrong side of public opinion, they're on the wrong side of public opinion when you just look at nra members and you just look at republican voters. so this is speaking to the power of the lobby in washington, d.c. and it's another example of which there are many out there of political timidity. >> today one guy who doesn't have any timidity, i wish he had a little more, texas senator ted cruz. he offered a plan just not only to get rid of it, make sure it doesn't get any care, obama care, he wants it defunded, certified as the law of the land. let's listen to senator cruz make his case to eliminate the president's health care plan. >> in my view, obama care should be repealed in its entirety.

and that was the very first bill i introduced in the u.s. senate. but at a minimum, in my judgment, obama care should not be funded and implemented at a time when our economy is gasping for breath. >> in other words, don't get rid of the military. just don't spend a nickel on it. their guy is basically saying in this sort of strange orwellian way, we're going to get rid of it by just not funding it. it's the minimum we can do. that guy has -- well, he's just something else. >> let's make sure that we don't use ted cruz as a barometer for much in washington. he reminds me of the japanese soldier that we found on the philippines years after world war ii ended still in his cave ready to go to war. the courts decided the issue of health care. the election decided the issue of health care. it's the law of the land. and i think it is -- like i said, let's not use him as a barometer on this. because i think the same people in the republican party

understand that although they may not like it, it's the law of the land and it's going to move forward. >> steve, where are you on this? do you think it's a settled deal? i think it is. i'd like to think it is. >> it is a settled deal. look, i'm not an obama care supporter. i think most republicans are not. i think that there will have to be reforms to it as time goes on. but the problem with what ted cruz is doing, although it might be good politics for ted cruz and his standing in the faction of the republican party that he represents, is it keeps us permanently looking backwards on an issue that robert just described that's been settled by the supreme court, that's been settled by the last election. so the issue going forward is how do we project a message that the american people will find appealing. how do we get back on track after having lost the popular vote in five out of the last six elections. when you keep focused on the past the way that ted cruz is doing, it keeps you from moving forward. it's just bad politics.

>> just to give you a chance to take something, take a popular position, taxes. it seems to me that your party has made it very hard for the president, they've dug in on taxes. their position is they have already given at the office, in other words, they gave the 1%, that's it. by the way, here's mitch mcconnell talking on that one. here he is. >> there is no revenue solution to that, i would say to you. it has to be done by making the eligibility for entitlements fit the demographics of america today and tomorrow. the only way to straighten america out is to fix the entitlement issue. >> well, today president obama said that kind of inflexibility, refuse to even look at taxes, could scotch any deal. let's listen to the president respond to that. >> ultimately it may be that the differences are just too wide. if their position is we can't do any revenue or we can only do revenue if we gut medicare or gut social security or gut medicaid, if that's the position, then we're probably

not going to be able to get a deal. >> so is that -- speaking for the president -- let me go back to steve. i said i would give you the first shot here. if the deal is you got to raise revenues up to a trillion dollars through reform or whatever, is there not going to be a deal? because republicans don't look like they're going to go for it. >> look, i think there's been a number of senators that said they are open to a grand bargain if -- fundamentally what everyone agrees an inherently uncompetitive tax code that makes the country uncompetitive, that's the drag on the economy. the top rates are now 39%. i'm not sure how much higher people want them to go. why think that 40 cents on the dollar isn't your fair share? when mitch mcconnell is talking about the demographic realities of the country, he's correct. we need to reform these programs in order for them to stay. any time the republicans talk about reform and the president

responds in the context of this is gutting the programs, i don't think that that creates an environment where you can have a commonsense debate on these issues. >> i agree with you on that. when the president came back and whipped back at you guys and said i'm not going to gut these programs, like saying i'm not going to touch them. anyway, thank you. steve schmidt, i noticed -- you're in the higher economic brackets. i noticed that new sensitivity to the 39% i hadn't seen from you before. the south carolina republican lawmaker who says expanding medicaid is a good idea, then voted against it because it's good politics to "oppose the black guy in the white house." [ male announcer ] when it comes to the financial obstacles

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winning elections. the piece points out whenever a political office opens up in massachusetts, connecticut, new jersey, new york, or pretty much anyplace within a 300-mile radius of boston, some kennedy somewhere either actively considers running for it or is assumes to be interested. a pattern has begun for the romney family. massachusetts, mitt romney served as governor. when john kerry vacated his senate seat, some said ann romney might be a good choice. the "boston herald" reported mitt's son tag was considering tossing his name in. neither took the plunge. over to michigan. mitt romney's father george served as governor in the '60s. we found out last week carl levin won't run for 20 election. "roll call" reported scott romney was considering a bid for the seat a few days later. scott romney announced it wasn't the right time. the latest the buzz about that michigan seat? ron that romney mcdaniel, mitt

romney's niece, she told "the detroit news" she's "looking at a republican run for the seat." she would of course be following in the footsteps of her grandmother, lenore romney, who ran for senate in michigan in 1970. next, minnesota state senate judiciary committee cleared the way yesterday for a marriage equality bill to get a full vote in the senate out there. leading up to that point there was heated debate between lawmakers on both sides of the issue. the most awkward goes to republican given gruhaggen, opponent of gay marriage. >> i have a friend, kevin peterson, stand up and say hi. the interesting thing about kevin is he was active in the gay lifestyle for about ten years and then he left it, got married, and he now has three children. thank you. [ it is tough to see how that speech would do anything to sway

votes. gruenhaggen made a failed attempt at banning same-sex marriage through an amendment last year. south kaerl's republican-led state house voted yesterday to reject a proposed expansion of medicaid. here's something to note. in january one of the republican lawmakers chris crawford talked to a local newspaper. "represent chris crawford, republican from florence and emergency room doctor, supports the expansion but expected the republican caucus to vote as a bloc against the medicaid expanse. "politics are going to overwhelm the policy. it is good politics to pose the black guy in the white house right now, especially for the republican party." he's on the record with that one. any guesses which way crawford went in yesterday's note? despite the benefits of expanding medicaid to hospitals and patients crawford went with as he described it, good politics, voted against it. right now we know the answer to one of the biggest mysteries of the 2012 election. it was the bartender. the bartender who recorded mitt romney's infamous 47% comments.

he's come forward now. he's ed schultz's guest tonight. ed joins us next. you're watching "hardball." le a] you are a business pro. executor of efficiency. you can spot an amateur from a mile away... while going shoeless and metal-free in seconds. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle...and go. you can even take a full-size or above, and still pay the mid-size price. now this...will work. [ male announcer ] just like you, business pro. just like you. go national. go like a pro.

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hello, i'm betty nguyen. jodi arias faced aggressive questioning on the stand today about gaps in her memory on the day her boyfriend was killed in 2008. arias is charged with first degree murder. she says it was self-defense. a barge struck a gas pipeline earlier off the coast of new orleans, sparking a massive the blaze that you see here. four people were injured. florida's lieutenant governor has resigned amid a probe of a former client. jennifer carroll's pr firm represent a charity which authorities say was a front for illegal gambling. now it's back to "hardball."

there are 47% of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. all right? there are 47% who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe that government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe they're entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you name it. and so my job is not to worry about those people. i'll never convince them that they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives. >> welcome back to "hardball." with those words mitt romney pretty much sealed his image as the candidate of the top 1% in this country and the callous he showed for those comments, 47% did more than anybody else is, most believe, to derail his presidential campaign. the comments were taped at a florida fund-raiser last may. until now, until tonight, one thing has remained a mystery, who shot the video and what was the motivation for releasing it?

tonight we find out. my colleague ed schultz has an exclusive interview with the man herein the tape. turns out he was a barn tender at the party. i thought he was one of the caterers. he he ultimately decided to release the tape because he wanted to hear what the candidate for president was willing to say behind closed doors. take a look. >> i simply wanted his words to go out and everybody could make a judgment based on his words and his words alone. the guy was running for the presidency. and these were his core beliefs. and i think, you know, everybody can judge whether, you know, that's appropriate or not, or they believe the same things he does. but i felt that an obligation to expose the things that he was saying. >> ed, thank you for joining us. good luck tonight. i think a lot of people will be watching. i just want to ask you, next time somebody has a fund-raiser at some swank hotel or something, they're going to clear that room of anything that looks like a recording device. this thing looks like it was set up on a table, behind some flowers.

was it covered up so people couldn't see it? it looks like, ifi do notice, it's all framed by stuff around it. where was it, do you know? >> chris, it was just about 20 yards from mitt romney. it was sitting right on the table. and it was not an effort to do anything politically, it was just a worker, a wage earner, who said, hey, i'm going to be kind of close to one of two guys who's going to be president of the united states, i want to get this on tape just so i have it as a souvenir. and so he started recording it. when he found out what was unfolding, you know, he was totally at odds with what was being said. and thought that it didn't match up with anything mitt romney was saying out in public. and he thought it was a serious injustice that was going to be done on the american people. and he thought that he had to bring it forward. he tells that story tonight. he talks about the anguish that he went through in deciding what to do with it, how to do it, how he used the social network, and how all of a sudden he was cast in the thick of it when the

president of the united states used that material in the second and most crucial debate. it's really an amazing story. >> ed, your interview with him, you asked him why he decided to release the take. let's take a listen to his response. >> how big a decision was it for you to release the tape and to go through all of this? >> it was -- it was -- it was tough. and i debated for a little while. and, you know, but in the end i -- i really felt like it had to be put out. i felt i owed it to the people that couldn't afford to be there themselves to hear what he really thought. >> you know, you and i are intuitive guys. we try to figure out these things. from the first day you probably figured it was somebody -- wasn't one of the people paid 10,000 bucks to go in there. they weren't going to screw the guy they were applauding. it was a worker. one of the caterers. had a point of view, perhaps, but definitely had the access to do it. nobody else would want to do it. what do you think the atmospherics were like between the workers as you refer to them as, appropriately so, and the fat cats?

was there a sense of oh, my god, these people are sucking this up? they're loving this stuff? they love that 47% attitude. >> what's interesting, he was not the only one in the room with a camera. in fact, there was no restriction whatsoever. it was in a private home. people were taking pictures. people were doing what they do with their cameras. he just set it right there on the counter there and let it do all the work. then he realized what he had. that's when, of course, the story started to unfold and personally it is quite a journey for the guy. you know, he could have gone obviously on "60 minutes." they've been after him. every news magazine in the country's been after him. but this is a pure guy. he didn't sell himself out. he wasn't trying to get a bang for a buck. he didn't want to inject himself into the election cycle. he knew what he had. but he knew he had to get the story out to the american people because he thought there were some serious discrepancies in mitt romney and what he was all about. and he will tell the story tonight on what really tripped his trigger as to why he had to do this and what he thought was the serious, serious injustice being played out.

>> romney was asked about that 47% comment on fox earlier this month. let's take a look at what he said then so many months later. let's watch. >> it was a very unfortunate statement that i made. it's not what i meant. i didn't express myself as i wished i would have. you know, when you speak in private, you don't spend as much time thinking about how something could be twisted and distorted and can come out wrong and be used. but, you know, i did, and it was very harmful. what i said is not what i believe. >> wow. >> it's not right wing, left wing, upper class, rich screwing people. it's political confidence. that guy should never have been president of the united states. first of all, everything he said there was not true. what did he mean to say, 46%? what was this error he committed? he deliberately -- in fact, listening to the tape again, ed, i know you listened to it again. i just is clear how he thought about it. how he meant this is my crowd. these are the people that are going to vote for me. this other crowd -- i need you more than ever because this

other crowd of people who depend on some of these programs aren't going to vote for me. so i need you even more. it was a pitch is what it was. >> there's no question about it. that interview, that clip that you just played was the turning point. that was the tipping point. that's when this man decided that he was going to go public. and he chose my venue, "the ed show," because we advocate for workers. we've been doing that since the day -- >> i was going to ask you about your trade craft and how you got this get. it's just he came to you and he said this is my guy, you know, as simple as that? >> chris, as you well know we all work on interviews. some you get, some you don't. i met this man during the inauguration. he knew who i was. he saw our show in freeport, illinois. he knew what we were all about, what we were fighting for. we were the show that was out there as many others telling the story about income inequality and how workers in this country are getting shafted by the people who were sitting in that room. it was mitt romney's story that motivated him to do this. >> do you realize covering politics the way we do that --

that it depends if it's on tape or not? i was thinking of nixon's comments about jewish people and everything else wasn't on tape he would still be president for eight years. if that george allen hasn't said macaca to that kid with the cell phone he would still be the senator. if obama hadn't said what he should have never said to the rich people in san francisco about clinging to guns and religion he would have been better off. it's fascinating how new technology, as you say, the social networking is really democratizing things for both sides. >> he wanted to make sure it was organic. he wanted to make sure the american people knew he wasn't going to be profiting off this. that this was a real deal, that people needed to know, and he wanted to go in the grassroots and let it grow from there. the big thing, i am -- i was so struck by the nobility of this man and the character of this man and how -- how untarnished -- how unvarnished he was. he was not tarnished politically in any way, shape or form. and he talks about that tonight. this was not a get moment.

this was something he fell into. and it evolved into a political game changer. i don't think fundraisers are ever going to be the same again. >> no, i don't understand. i think the secrecy, the privacy, is gone. anyway. i hope everyone sticks around after my show tonight and watches your show. ed schultz with the big get tonight. we'll be watching your exclusive interview as i said tonight at 8:00 on "the ed show." up next, disturbing testimony on capitol hill about the prevalence of sexual assault including rape in the u.s. military between people in the uniforms. do you believe it? both serving their country. one raping the other. this is "hardball," the place for politics. i'm here in your home, having a pretty spectacular tuesday. ♪ but i don't notice the loose rug at the top of your stairs. and that's about to become an issue for me. ♪ and if you got the wrong home insurance coverage, my medical bills could get expensive.

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service and during my first assignment. that was 1988. i was 18 years old. >> i removed myself from training and immediately sought out the assistance from an army chaplain who told me, among other things, that the rape was god's will. >> during my tour on the "uss frank cable" i was raped by a superior noncommissioned officer. >> we're back. that was disturbing and emotional testimony earlier today at the united states senate armed service subcommittee hearing on sexual assault in the military. many may think that only women are the victims of sexual assault in the military, but often men are as well, as we just heard. as you saw in that clip, some 3,000 sexual assault cases were reported in 2011. but the defense department estimates the number of actual incidents is six times that, closer to 19,000. now defense secretary chuck hagel is ordering a review of

rules to give commanders the authority to overturn sexual assault convictions by military juries. kirsten gillibrand and anu bhagwadi. and uses perhaps, people under him or under her, as sexual opportunities that they can exploit because of their command situation, is this something that is new? or is it just newly understood? >> it's not new, that's for sure. chris, we have the greatest military in the world and i'm grateful for the courage of those who served. but in these instances, we're talking about predators. they're criminals who are targeting their victims and we're talking about 19,000 sexual assaults and rapes each year. more than half against men. and of that, only 2,400 are actually reported. of that, only 240 go to trial. of that, only about 190 are actually convicted. so you're talking about 1 in 100 convictions for these kinds of crimes.

and what we're looking for in this hearing is we're looking for a way to make sure that justice is served. because we have to change the dynamics, we have did change the culture, we have to make it possible for men and women who are victims to actually report these cases so we can have conviction rates increase and have more accountability. >> thank you for joining us. give me a sense of what it's like, the atmosphere. is it injustice? is it just big-shot men lording it over women and covering up for bad, in fact criminal, behavior? i think military culture is about a generation behind where civilian culture is on issues of rape, sexual harassment, sexual assault in the workplace. when you have an insular system that isolates servicemembers from outside forms of redress that really intimidates the survivor, even i would say in a bigger way than even civilian victims, because you're often operating within your chain of commands. it's a hierarchal system in

which you're intimidated oftentimes by those who outrank you. the vast majority of these 19,000 victims are junior enlisted. just over half of them are male so it's not a women's issue. universally, we know victims feel they are not getting their fair shot at justice. they're either retaliated against by false diagnoses like personality disorders, drummed out of the military, while their senior perpetrator is promoted, given command, maybe transferred out of the unit without any form of -- >> why? can you give me the motive? explain it to the outside who haven't been in the military. why would they cover up -- i don't mean whistling at a girl or something that might be bad behavior, gross behavior, but not criminal. let's talk about criminal cases where somebody's physically assaulted or raped. why would anybody cover that up? physical assault is a criminal matter, it's a serious criminal matter, they put you in jails if you do it in civilian life. why do they cover up that part of it? that's what i don't get. >> that's a great question and i think that needs to be asked directly to the military. i saw it myself as a company commander where my senior

commanders swept these cases under the rug, rape cases, sexual assault cases, sexual harassment cases, routinely under the rug. i think it's self-protection, there's careerism in the officer ranks, there's a huge desire to protect oneself and move on. i love the marines, the military is a great military, but we have a serious problem with the treatment of women in particular. and also rape mythology, victim blaming, which we see throughout society as well, but in that insulated system where you really have nowhere to go, you can't quit your job, you're really stuck with the outcome the commander provides. >> let me get back to the senator about corrections. it's a culture, it's hard to deal with a culture, you set rules and teach people as they get trained -- first of all, i have to tell you, i don't get it. a rape is a rape. used to be a capital crime in part of the united states.

you don't kid around, cover up, you don't do business with them. why would anybody say that's the old boy and protect a person who's committed almost a capital crime? why would you protect a guy like that? >> one thing we're trying to change is there's this thing called a convening authority, be a general up the chain of command who has the decision-making authority to decide whether an allegation goes forward to an investigation and to a trial. and our view is that general, that commanding officer, isn't necessarily trained in rape, isn't trained in legal theory, isn't trained in prosecutorial discretion. so that convening authority is creating a, let's just say, it's a narrowing aspect where not enough cases are actually proceeding. and then, even worse than that we have an example of this, where the convening authority had the opportunity to look at a jury's verdict that had convicted this perpetrator and actually overturned it. not having reviewed the evidence. not having heard the testimony. just looking at some clemency letters. it's disgraceful if you can have a system where there's no accountability.

>> one last question. what percentage of men in the military or women are evil in this regard? 10%? 1 of 10? or worse than that? 1 of 100? >> i would say it's a very small percentage. the point is though that they're serial predators. you don't just rape once, you often rape several times, and the lack of accountability just encourages these serial predators. >> well said. thank you for that information. we're going to have to see something get done. senator, we trust you to get something done. kristen gillibrand from new york, thank you. i know you're a victim as well. when we return let me finish with a big surprise out of the vatican. a pope committed to social justice. this is going to be great, i think. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. ♪ right. but the most important feature of all is... the capital one purchase eraser. i can redeem the double miles i earned with my venture card to erase recent travel purchases. and with a few clicks, this mission never happened. uh, what's this button do?

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