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also available in delicious peanut butter. healthy never tasted so sweet. on the top of the show, we asked you why are you awake? producer john tower with our answers. >> we have a guy on twitter "i'm up because of a nightmare about an ex-boyfriend, a mouse and a dead cell phone woke me. not sure which is more terri terrifying." >> the phone is not an issue because it can't wake you up, the mouse is cleaning the floors, but the ex-boyfriend dreams is a bit more difficult. >> kurt says i'm up because it's bothering me that they don't give you a better weather podium. it's so wobbling. >> a lot of our viewers have

noticed that and that is the least of my concerns. that catwalk is held up by like six bolts, literally, and there's no weight limit on there and i don't eat dinner because i'm worried about it. great show, everyone. i'll see you back up by like six bolts. literally, six bolts. "morning joe" is starting right now. ♪ good morning. it's thursday, march 14th. welcome it to "morning joe." with us on the set msnbc contributor and managing editor of "morning joe" papal desk mike barnicle. best selling author and aaward winning journalist carl bernstein the co-author of the book your holiness john paul, ii." and katie kay. in nashville "morning joe's" resident theologian, jon meachem. the author of "thomas jefferson

the art of power." >> while everyone is getting the praise, i was in the boys choir in ridgewood, new jersey. >> what church? >> presbyterian. >> you can go now. >> you can go now. all right. we have a new pope. >> we do! >> i think that's where we start today. >> and that is -- and it's exciting. new pope from the americas. this hasn't happened in 1200 years. a pope outside of europe. and while he is conservative on many theological issues he is also been a champion of the poor, the dispossessed and a lot of people that are quite hopeful. >> well, much of what lies ahead for the catholic church now rests on the shoulders of pope francis. the former archbishop of buenos

aires was elected by the cardinals yesterday in a strong religion of changing die nam milks. he was selected on the fifth round of voting. at the secret conclave. his name announced for a crowd of over a hundred thousand people gathered in st. peters square. that was quite a sight, mike barnicle, to watch unfold. >> the theater, the theater of the church is unmatched, unparalleled when you consider the ramifications of what we all watched yesterday. hundreds of thousands of people in st. peters square and millions around the world watching this. everything in doubt until those doors opened. the theater of black smoke and white smoke. there was no red state, blue state, no chuck todd standing in front of a map announcing winners. >> not that we don't love that. >> i know, i know.

>> it's all go. >> not that there is anything wrong with that. >> until that door opened, we did not know who the next pope would be and the significance of the choice is overwhelming as well. the pope crosses the ocean to latin america. first time it's happened as you pointed out, joe. >> right. >> jesuit is pope. >> jesuit have been seen as outsiders of the church. the founder of the jesuit did not want them to become bishops because he wanted them to be outsiders. >> as part of their vow they seek no higher clerical office. not to become bishops or cardinals. once they become bishops or cardinals they are free from their jesuit ordination rights. the pope was asked would he accept the position. yes, he would accept the position. he chose the name francis.

there is francis xavier. francis of assisi. francis of assisi in the 13th century had a vision that jesus came to him and said to him, francis of assisi, rebuild my church. and in a sense, pope francis, that is his task and i think that is what he eluding to yesterday in the brief remarks he made. another significant factor that occurred yesterday was when he came out on the balance qon connco balcony, chose to begin with a moment of slept prayer. not a lecture but a moment of silent prayer. >> jon meachem, that was compelling for yesterday many in the crowds and many that follow the vatican. mike talks about the pageantry of the vatican and catholic church. yesterday when he went out standing above the crowds instead of blessing the crowds as popes have done for nearly

two centuries, he began his papacy to bless him and pray promise. not only was that a change from the past, he also -- the way he lived. in argentina, he is a matthew xxv. >> you have these men of god who represent and believe they are these successors of one of the most -- i think one of the oldest human institutions, the roman catholic church. they believe they stand on the rock of peter but they embody a gospel that is about the first shall be last and -- but they are, in fact, the first among

the princes of the church. >> jon, i want you to follow up on that point. but also there are a couple of moments, of course, and christ on ministry when he bathed the disciples and he said if you want to be first, you must be last. that's exactly what this pope did in 2001 "the new york times" reports when he went to buenos aires hospital and asked for water and then went around to aids patients and washed their feet. >> absolutely. that's what the celebration in two weeks is the commandment to love one another as i loved you. and i think the critical thing for the church now is can francis, who has taken this name of obedient, humble man who cares about the poor, who lived -- the saint who lived among the poor, who had been a

rich guy, the original francis had kind of a wasteful youth according to legend and had augustinian moment of version. will this pope be able to embody and enact a gospel that is about reversal. >> carl bernstein, you've written a book about a pope and a lot of talk leading up to this vote yesterday that the catholic church needed a bit of a turning of the pam, a look to the next generation. by age this isn't the next generation. it's new and digit by geography. from what you know about this man and from what you've studied, does he represent a new face, a new turning of the page for the catholic church? >> i think it's real continuity and extremely savvy choice by the cardinals who knew exactly what they wanted and probably what they are getting. remember, john paul, ii is someone whose commitment to the poor and to those who couldn't help themselves, the people he

called the other, the marginalized was every bit as great as any popes has been so there is real continuity. remember, the gospels themselves are about and catholic social teaching, it is caring for the poor, educating and taking care of the sick, community. so this continuity will go on, plus he has obvious humility which appeals to the cardinals. they knew that. and, at the same time, they knew they have a church in crisis that under great pressure and attack from within and from without. and the hope is that he is deal with this and, at the same time, the teachings of the church that these cardinals are of whom are "pointed by benedict and john paul, ii the teachings to regard to sex and gender and role of the priesthood, et cetera, he will be a fierce defender of these traditions, they believe.

and, at the same time, i would think that he knows that the role of women have to change, that the nuns of the church are one of the great assets of this church and he knows the nuns. he has worked with the nuns. might be a way forward to increasing the role of women, while, at the same time, not inhibiting the traditional priesthood. >> to be a defender of the catholic church but also to bring this church into the future, he is going to have to have his own version and this is the big question, of what john paul, ii brought to the table which was a certain ka ris -- charisma and galvanize young people. >> john paul, ii used to great effect and loved young people and is coming up in brazil next year. that is a huge event. everything we know about this new pope tells us that he will perform great acts and relate to

them. >> katie kay, what about the significance where he is from being from latin america? >> this is the continent in the world that has the largest number of catholics but is also seeing a declining catholic population. people are -- in latin america are flocking to pentecostal churches and that symbolizes the pope has to deal with trust in the church and have to address the sex abuse scandal and get catholics back into the pews and into churches. maybe part of the way he can do that in latin america is because he has worked with the poor and put poor people so much at the forefront of his own ministry. he said just a xulve years ago i live in a continent has seen huge economic growth. the poor have not benefited from the economic growth we have seen and maybe a message amongst

latin americans, at least, can help get the catholic churches full again. that is restoring faith, both in his own continent but of course here in north america and europe where it's declining very rapidly is central to this pope's mission. >> jon meacham, there have been challenges and will be challenges to this pope's selection from people inside and outside of the church because he is conservative theologically. "the wall street journal" writes this morning, as for the lament that pope francis is merely another catholic who believes in catholic doingmgma what do you think? that means they need to be less religious to survive in the modern world and strikes as a misreading of the appeal of christianity since its founding but there is no doubt -- i agree with that, by the way -- why do

you go to church if you want to be the same as secular elites? that said, he has, throughout his life, balanced two worlds. he grew up in latin america when, as you know and mike certainly remembers, and carl remembers, you had this liberation theology. the mixing of marxism and christianity which certainly was the rage for some time in the '60s and '70s and even '80s. he resisted that, but while dolg that, he also provided absolutely no comfort to the wealthy there. in fact, cited on the side of the dispossessed. so he has proven he can -- he can walk a fine line between two competing interests. >> absolutely. i think it's a critical point, i think, here that this is a john paul, ii culture of life

orthodox holy father. this is not someone who is sweeping in with some new theological vision. one of the most interesting things to me about catholicism is the consistency of that life. they are unlike american political parties, for instance, they actually do support life in most -- throughout the various stages. they are antiabortion but also antideath penalty. they are for caring for the poor. they care about people who after they were born. and so there is a kind of coherence to what john paul, ii preached and francis em bo embodies. >> i think one of the more interesting aspects of his pay

pa pas papacy is he is a jesuit and they are in the fight for catholic relief services around the globe and catholic charities around at home. again, i'm struck by the vision century when christ visited him and told to pposedly what he was told.uin this pope at the age of e76, it raises the question. the rules are the rus. those are the rules and will not ange under this poem. he not, all of a sudden, is going to have women up on the altar get that straight i'm sure to the disappointment of a great many americans. but, on the other hand, rebuilding the church and giving voice to what the church is

truly all about to caring for the poor, to addressing income, inequality. not only in latin america but throughout the world. growth of the church in terms of faith and spirit that this pope will bring to that faith, that, to me, is an interesting thing to watch. >> also the fact that as the pope said, the church is about the teachings of christ. including what this pope and his predecessors regarding as teachings that he is not going to give on in terms of what the role of priesthood and et cetera. at the same time, in the resume of the jesuits, john paul, ii deventstraighted them in the 1980s and through them out because they were too radical in his belief that they had gotten too close to the marxist and those advocating for the poor and he took them under his own

care and said out with the leadership and this new pope comes from that replaced leadership. so he knows how to move this fine line which these cardinals have very good at within the church between these competing factions and beliefs and, at the same time, the theology goes on unchange thissing. >> we are looking right now at what happened many decades ago in 1979 when pope john paul, ii brought so much excitement to new york. your father, well before he was pope, he talked about what a remarkable man he was and the joy he brought. and the moral clarity he brought on so many issues. >> we had a chance to meet him when he came to washington. and received communion. he had a certain charm and

charisma that only a good polish man could bring. >> he was a geo political genius. speaking of that, jon meacham -- he also helped bring down the soviet union. jon meacham, i want to go back to what carl said from the beginning. a very astute choice that the college of cardinals made because, yes, they got a man from the new world who was old. they got a man who believed in church docket rin but instead of 52 or 53 or 60-year-old pope that would be there for 20 years, they selected a man who was 76. he seems like a transitional pope. but in the best sense of the word, he could be an extraordinarily important historic figure in the 2,000

year history of this church. >> he absolutely could. remember, john 23rd was thought to be a transitional figure and he was. i think what is interesting to watch here is the balance that francis strikes between two of the missions of the church. one is looking upward which is sacramental and repeating commandment in do this in remembrance of me and reaching out and embodying and enacting that gospel of caring for the less fortunate. it will be a very interesting dynamic because you also have a church that has been, we have to note, under enormous and justified fire for not protecting its own children, for protecting its priests at the price of in terms of sexual abuse at the price of the flock, and you have here a pope who

said when my brothers looked for a cardinal, they looked for a pope, they went to the ends of the earth. which reminded me, john paul, ii when he stepped out said that you have called a pope from a far country. so it may be that you have someone coming in to rome who, you know, if i were a corrupt and bureaucrat, i wouldn't be particularly sleeping well right now. >> and also, i mean, two other elements here. the jesuit calling for the spirit of renewal. spirit of renewal. that is big with the jesuits and outsider from argentina can he manage the internal politics of the vatican? >> well, how do you bring transparency to that and a certain amount needed so that you prevent what we have seen when you have secrecy and you have tradition, there's a lot of great things that are so beautiful about the catholic church that i love so much.

but that secrecy and that lack of transparency, obviously, led to some clear problems and divisions that will stay with this church for years to come unless they figure out how to fix that. katie? >> you wonder. somebody who has made a point of being outside of the vatican for so long. he was the runner-up when pope benedict was chosen and reports from inside that conclave said actually don't choose me. don't choose me as the next pope. he left and went back to alternat argentina. one cardinal went back to buenos aires and said outside the system. maybe he can come in cooking his own meals and living in otherwise own apartment and not using a chauffeur because he pref

preferred to take the bus. maybe because of that and the pomp and circumstance we have seen over the last couple of weeks and maybe it takes somebody from the outside to say, this is an organization that needs to have the windows opened on that secrecy and needs reform and needs change. >> let's hope. coming up on "morning joe," microsoft bill gates will be with us and former congressman barney frank will be here and "hardball's" chris matthews. up next, president obama meets face-to-face for the house republicans since 2011 first. first, a check on the forecast. >> a nice tease. the spring weather with us the last three or four days on the eastern seaboard is gone this morning. grab the winter clothes. chilly. the windchill values in the teens now across pennsylvania, much of new york state and now the cold air is sweeping right into boston, hartford, providence and philly and d.c.

a cold day and at least we will have some sunshine. snow on the map coming down from minneapolis and rochester. careful driving on the roads there and snow work toward the quad cities and chicago may see snowflakes. winter forecast for many areas of the great lakes and northeast. snow showers in the northeast this morning too. you may see some of those if you look out the window in southeastern connecticut and southern rhode island right now. so the highs today much cooler than yesterday. upper 30s to low 40s. typically, we should be near 50 this time of year, so this is unusually cold. as i mentioned yesterday, the whole southern half of the country is enjoying very beautiful weather. still a little chilly in atlanta but it's sunny and nice afternoon. gorgeous from kansas city to texas. as we go throughout the next couple of days through st. paddy's day the march weather pattern is here to stay and a couple of storms from canada and rain and snow mixes from the midwest, great lakes and into the northeast. the first one friday, saturday, another one right behind it so

southern half of the country, thumb's half. northern half of the country, we are waiting for april. you're watching "morning joe." we are brewed by starbucks. ♪ take me to that other place teach me ♪ [ nyquil bottle ] hey tylenol, you know we're kinda like twins. [ tylenol bottle ] we are? yeah we both relieve coughs, sneezing, aches, fevers. and i relieve nasal congestion. overachiever. [ female announcer ] tylenol® cold multi-symptom nighttime relieves nasal congestion. nyquil® cold and flu doesn't.

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no. ♪ what's in your wallet? you got any mustard in there? ♪ ♪ all right. it is 26 past of the hour, willie. let's take a look at the morning papers. we start from our parade of papers. "houston chronicle." is benjamthe new government wil reportedly focus more on domestic issues rather than negotiations with the palestinians. the orlando sentinel. florida lieutenant government jennifer carroll resigned over

alleged ties to a company she once represented which is now suspected of being an illegal gambling front. >> that's not a good day. >> rated more than a dozen gaming centers arresting 57 people and also believed to be connected to the 300 million dollar operation. governor rick scott said carol made the right decision for the state and her family. "wall street journal." regulators are looking into gold fixing in one of the largest trading markets in london. no formal investigation has been launched but the smaller silver market is also being looked at. >> do you have any stories about tacos? >> i love the taco market. taco futures. >> the new york daily news reports taco bell sold more than 375 million doritos locos tacos last year. more than a million per day. easily the company's biggest

hit. they use a taco shell made from doritos taco chips. they had to hire 15,000 new employees. doritos created jobs. >> created because of these dorito tacos? what did fdr say? doritos create jobs! >> mike allen sent me this yesterday. >> the content of them. >> we are not done with this story. let us show a little bit of restrain. >> have you heard about the next -- >> no. >> the cool ranch dorito. >> that is disgusting! what is wrong with you two? >> even the incoming pope mentioned doritos locos yesterday and big gulp. >> 15,000 jobs created. >> maybe i was just dreaming. is mike allen doing politico?

he sent me a story. it might have been in my dreams about -- >> can you do this when there is not a red light on top of the camera? we are going to willie geist in "field of dreams." we are not in rehearsal! >> when did we go on today? >> seriously. i have to ask you to hold on and let willie do the next segment and we will talk about your dreams later. >> take this up in the break. joining us is now the executive editor jim. >> i'm sorry to disappoint mika i'm not mike today. >> wait a minute. >> no, no, let's work this out in the break. >> you had to be there. >> jim, talk business here. the president met yesterday with house republicans for the first time since 2011 face-to-face. the headline in politico, house republicans meet the new, same old president obama. according to some members who were there the meeting yielded little in the way of compromise. the president signaled he would

only move on entitlements if republicans agreed to new tax increases. we have heard this before. however, the white house put a positive smpin on the meeting calling it a good substantive exchange and called it a good conversation. the president admitted more with abc news there is more to be done. >> ultimately it may be that the differences are just too wide. if their position is we can't do any revenue or we can only do revenue if we gut medicare or gut social security or medicaid. if that is the position we probably will not be able to get a deal. >> if your piece up on politico read conflicting reports, some say it was more of the same from the president and others say it was a step in the right direction for him to come up to the hill and visit bus. anything come out of this meeting yesterday and the ones that will follow today and the rest of the week? >> i would just replay that clip over and over and over again and that tells you everything you need to know about the next year. the president wants tax

increases and he does not want to do a bill with big changes in entitlement reforms. republicans don't want tax increases and they want to do some big changes on entitlements. so there's not really a middle ground to be had. you talk to people on the hill in leadership and they say no chance of a grand bargain because the two sides are too far apart. i think no doubt that the president going up to the hill, over time, can help, having these relationships, can at least maybe build trust over time to get deals, maybe not on the budget but on immigration which is important. i think the fact that dennis mcdonough come in as chief of staff and spending a lot of time on the phone with lindsey graham and mccain and others are helping relationships with senate behind the scenes so things the white house are doing i think can help them on other pieces of legislation and other debates. it's just on the budget, the two sides philosophically too far apart and neither have an incentive any more like last year. >> you say too far apart.

i have to disagree. by the way, we have a banner down below that comes from politico story, meet the new obama same as the old obama, that is just -- i know that people said that to you. that's just not true. the president is coming to the hill. republicans are talking to the president. now, the president said to george stephanopoulos if the president doesn't raise taxes we have no deal. john boehner said to reporters on the other side, if the president wants taxes, we are not going to have a deal. if he is going to hold it hostage. we have all seen this before. this is preliminary and they are negotiating and i think, carl, what is important is -- and jim, i'd love to get your take after carl talks here -- what is preside important here is the president is not just talking to the leaders, he is giving individual members a chance to talk to him and you can get five, six

republicans, saxby chambliss and if the deal is big enough, le s lindsay graham you can get five, six deals and get a deal out of the -- >> i think that report is over simplified and not on the money. >> my goodness! >> no. i believe people -- >> not like that. >> i believe people said this to jim and others. but i think the real fact is that obama is a pragmatist. he wants revenue and so far republicans won't give on revenue. if they give on revenue to some extent, obama as much or more than anybody in that town wants entitlement reform in terms of medicare and social security. knows it has to be done for the long-term health of those programs, cut down the percentage of gdp that they represent. it's basic to what he believes. and to think that this game is

over, it's only beginning. we have got until september to come up with something. it could happen and it really depends on the republicans willingness to embrace some revenue. >> the thing is, willie, if you go back to what the president said in 2005 and 2006 and 2007 and 2008, the president really did talk all the time about needing to reform medicare, medicaid, social security. it's what he ran on. >> exactly. >> i think if the president is practicing mat ti pragmatic, if the deal is big enough we will glad close loopholes because we believe the country's long-term debt crisis will destroy us. if the deal is big enough i think the deal will be done. >> the president is floated out means testing and changed for social security to get the conversation started. on the other side of that, jim, speaker boehner said it

yesterday, we just gave you $600 billion in tax increases. don't make it sound like we haven't given it all on this. we just did about two months ago. >> i guess i'll keep the tension moving and challenge carl on this. you've got -- you guys are talking about a congress that you wish you had versus a congress that you actually have. the house of representatives, the republicans in congress are not going to do another tax increase. they just increased taxes in their own minds in december. the idea that house republican who is so much more conservative than the president, who are anti-tax by nature, are going to vote a second time for a tax increase going into the midterm elections, that is a tough, tough -- and i would argue -- impossible sale. could you get tom colburn and others --

>> if we were talking about raising rates, jim -- >> but you whether you call it a rate increase or whether you get rid of a deduction, somebody has to pay higher taxes so you get revenue, right? >>. >> i understand. the conversations that i've had with the republicans since we got our brains beaten out echo what bill crystal said after november which is, why do we want to continue to be seen as the party that protects billionaire, hedge fund brokers that usually give money to democrats to pay 16% taxes? if you go to people that, like me for my wing of the republican party, the populous wing of the republican party, the guys and the women that got elected in 1994, guess what? when i hear people are paying 16% taxes, i resent them. i think they should pay at least 30% taxes. and you know what? there are a lot of conservative republicans that feel like i do. if you're talking about raising

tax rates, i'm with you. hell, no. if you're talking about getting some loopholes closed on interest and on billionaires paying 16% taxes, jim, i think there may be a deal -- >> every republican we have on the show say they are for closing loopholes. >> and am i naive on this front? again, if the entitlement cuts are big enough. >> can i ask a question? >> we are all pounding on jim. let jim finish. >> i'm not going to pound on him. i'm going to ask him a question. can i ask you a question? >> we don't do that here. pound on him or you don't get the floor. >> how many members, percentage wise, in congress, on the republican side, were elected specifically on the platform of no new taxes, make the government smaller, thus, no deal ever? >> almost every republican in the house would say that they were elected on that precise platform and i would say the vast majority actually ran on that precise platform. so the idea of getting those --

yes, in theory tax reform and getting new revenue sounds great and each sounds easy. until you get into the specifics. any loophole worth closing that generates enough revenue to actually then offset it with entitlement cuts is extremely difficult to do. you have to start getting into charitable dedeductions and mortgage tax dedeductions. you can't get rid of a loophole for a billionaire that drives a private plane. a drop in the bucket and doesn't give you real revenue you need to get any sort of big entitlement reform on the back end to get republicans to the table and why it's difficult. sure it's not impossible but a lot harder today than i think it would have been last year. >> for instance if you do it warren buffett is talking about and set a 30% minimum tax rate which may not happen but if you do that 120 billion, 130 billion in revenue and ain't nothing. you're right, mike. republicans believe that you don't raise taxes and that is how they got elected like

democrats believe 16.5 trillion later we don't have a spending program and there aren't really big problems with medicare. if you listen to house leadership. democratic leadership. >> i found the story that i e-mailed to all of you at 2:28 yesterday and such a mockery in terms of what one fast food chain is doing to avoid litigation i'm putting it at the top of next hour in the news segment. willie? >> we just elected a pope. and now talk about fast food. >> the great part about this show we can have a spirited debate with jim and then go out for tacos. >> take care. >> thanks, jim. >> see you later. >> the new world taco. coming up, the new england patriots. >> this is awful! >> bad deal? >> awful! >> what idiots! what are they doing? >> tom brady loses his top receiver to peyton manning and the broncos. that is next in sports. ♪ alright, let's go. ♪ shimmy, shimmy chocolate.

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. time for a quick dose of sports. miami heat remain on fire. last night they had a chance to do something only three other teams in nba history ever had done and that is to win 20 consecutive games. second quarter against the sixers, lebron i. >> there he goes. >> where is the defense there? coast-to-coast. heat up six. sixers hang around.

less than 90 seconds left in the game, jrue holiday ties the game at 91 making his way through the defense. heat up one. lebron can't get it to go but misses the follow but d-wade tips it in. heat slip pass the sixers. they win 98-94. 1972 lakers hold the record at unthinkable 33 consecutive wins. >> i know we are out of nba but i tell you what the knicks stink. they stink! they keep losing. >> i don't know that they stink, but it doesn't matter because the heat are so much better than everyone else in the east, no one else is coming out of that conference any way. >> how about the nfl? you can weigh in on this one. >> terrible. >> tom brady's favorite target the last several years will be catching passes from a different future hall of famer next season. wes welker the wide receiver is headed to denver broncos after he agreed to two-year deal worth

$12 million. patriots say they could afford to pay their best receiver $6 million a year, so peyton manning is smiling last night. he now has the best trio of receivers in the nfl. nfl a second will try to keep up with wes welker as well as along with eric decker and demaryius thomas. >> they see this wildly admired guy going able to go for 25 cents and couldn't come up with another quarter. >> and tom brady loves that guy. they picked up danny amendola. >> who has missed so many games in the past year. how the gun lobbying is even powerful than the gun makers themselves. paul barret will join us next on that. [ male announcer ] when it comes to the financial obstacles

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♪ 48 past of the hour. look at the sunrise over washington, d.c. wake up, everyone. welcome to "morning joe." here with us now is assistant managing editor of bloomberg business week, paul barrett. the author of glock. the rise of america's gun. now out in paperback. paul has written a cover story for the latest issue of bloomberg business week entitled who is afraid of the nra? gun makers, that's who. let's start right there, paul. talk about the power of the nra and that is influenced in a way where perhaps you wouldn't first expect. >> yeah, one of the myths that has cropped up in our current round of debate about gun control is the nra goes to such extremes it's carrying water for the industries and if anything

the opposite is true. this is a unique situation where the lobbying organization actually calls the shots in the industry that benefits is very much subservient to that lobbying industry and complicated reasons for that. >> how do they wheel that power? >> they pewheel the power in a couple of ways. the threat to potentially organize consumer boycotts of any gun company that gets out of line is so tremendous that the gun companies stay in line. secondly the nra are coming four guns, they coming for tomorrow is the gun industry's biggest selling point and that is what drives gun owners back to the gun stores so the gun industry is willing to stand down. >> >> are you suggesting if you're the gun maker of smith or glock or whichever one it is and you have a different issue on gun control going through congress at the moment, background checks, controls on magazines, you can't get those

out there? it seems to me implausible if you're a company that makes guns and you want to see something happening in congress right now, you're not going to make smur that opinion is known? >> it may seem plausible to but that is the case. in 2000 when we had our last serious round of gun control debate near the end of the clinton administration smith and wesson did that. they tried to step out, make basically a big compromise with the clinton administration. the nra opposed this. the company was almost destroyed in the space of six months. the ownership of the company changed. the company apologized. it retracted a settlement it had reached with the clinton administration and accepted back into the fold. this may sound implausible but the gun industry is unique and american gun politics is unique. >> how did we miss this story? it seems to me i don't recall reading any sustained stories

about, you know, the pressure. >> you, obviously, haven't been following me for the last 15 years. >> wow. >> the nra is an organization, a lobbying organization almost unlike any other in washington. it gets its power from gun owners, not from the industry itself. >> and from a unique strategy, no exaggerate radiatiion. >> they try it to marble opinion on that basis. this is an industry that is off the wall. >> all right. jon, real quick. >> i think leach folks wonder why there is not a strategy the one undertaken against the tobacco companies. would you explain why on the liability question? >> sure. the strategy was tried and it failed. immediately in the wake of the litigation against the tobacco industry, the very same lawyers joined up with a different group of government and state and local officials and also with

the clinton and sued the gun industry. two things happen. the legal theory didn't work as well because unlike cigarettes used by the victim in the case of a gun a third party. a criminal, insane person, a suicide who steps in the middle and that breaks the chain of causation. second and more important the nra stepped in and managed to get enacted at the state and federal level laws that extinguished those stories. >> who is afraid of the nra, the cover story of bloomberg business week. great to have you on the show. more "morning joe" when we come back. all stations come over to mission a for a final go. this is for real this time. step seven point two one two. verify and lock. command is locked. five seconds. three, two, one. standing by for capture.

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top of the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." mike barnicle is still with us. >> he won't go away! >> along with caty kay in washington and joining us is wretch stengel. columnist for "the new york times" and former rome bureau chief for the paper, frank bruni. >> i didn't know that. >> two years in a row. >> what have you not done? >> in washington host of msnbc "hardball" and author of jack kennedy elusive hero, chris matthews and along with the post, e.j. dion. >> we have so many good catholics here. except for -- let me restate that. we have so many catholics here! e.j., let's start with you. i know that this is an interesting selection for you. because this is a pope who does focus on the poor, has focused

on the poor for years. but is probably not quite as progressive on some social issues as you'd like. talk about the new world pope. >> well, you know, there are a lot of ghendimensions here and t on the role of women in the church and rights of gays and not see much change here. but to elude something that cardinal barnicle said early in the show there weren't a lot of blue state cardinals in that conclave. so you weren't going to get somebody out of this round that was going to make a lot of change in that area, although i think room for him. on the poor, he has been very strong. he is not left wing. he was critical of the theological thinking and line of thought was condemned by pope benedict when he was cardinal but he is on the side of the

poor powerfully. he is called the unjust distribution in the world that cries out to the heavens. but other dimensions here. the vatican reform. the vatican is in enormous need of reform. i think a lot of people across, you know, left and right, if those lines are appropriate, believe that the vatican needs reform. i've heard two completely different lines of thought on francis. one is that as an outsider, he may be the guy to do it. i've also heard that he got some votes from cardinals inside the curiae because they dant think he was going -- they didn't think he was the guy to push that. lastly let chris talk about the scandal. the other thing is decentralization of church power. there has been steady centralization of that in the vatican. i know one in the church said it

was significant that he went out there and referred to himself first as the bishop of rome and perhaps he will be someone who wants to pull back a little bit on rome and centralization. we will see. >> chris matthews, there is a lot of symbolism and, obviously, in the church and mike was just saying nobody does it better than the catholic church, but if you love symbolism and historic moments like this, the first new world pope ever selected, you had to love the first thing he did, which was instead of imparting his blessing on the people, he asked the people for their blessings and for their prayers. it was a show of humility that "the new york times" had a couple of stories that showed actually won over some skeptics in the crowd fairly quickly because of that humility. >> all great leaders and one told me had three great qualities in every culture and one is motivate. why are they there? one is passion what makes them

laugh and cry and third is the ability to act on the spot and show the lights are on in someone's home. he wasn't taking choreograph instruction on those around him and in attendance. he was giving them instructions minute-by-minute up there on the balcony. i like to see that. i don't want to see a prisoner of the vatican. i think what we have seen in the election and basing it on small evidence so far. a bob casey from pennsylvania papacy. someone who is conservative on issues like abortion and very much so. but also a liberal in terms of economics. in pennsylvania, if you're familiar with that point of view politically. they are conservative and economically liberal. so i think you're seeing that. usually when you deal with cultural liberals who are conservative.

the fashionab ablable thing fro suburbs is to be physically conservative and socially liberal. this is a bob casey pope. he believes in helping the poor but being tough on moral issues. so i think it's fascinating to me. not moral issues. sexual moral issues. by the way, i agree with frank bruni when he talks. everything you said is true. looking for men who are willing to gave up, gay or straight, give up sex for life is rare. limiting your pool of potential priest, cardinals and popes to that small group of people is going to get you in trouble because it ain't going to happen and what we are learning. >> add to that, chris matthews, and, frank, throw it to you, secrecy, that surrounds the traditions of the catholic church is a recipe for disaster. while it's beautiful to watch the symbolism unfolding at the vatican as we watch this incredible transition that you only see once or twice or maybe three times in a lifetime, as we

have, there is a lot of work ahead and some serious changes that need to happen blocked by tradition that may make it impossible. >> blocked by a tradition that is perfectly symbolized by the conclave. they lock themselves away. we have no idea what happens until sometimes years later, if ever. even now when we talk about the now pope francis, former cardinal bergoglio and runner up in the last conclave we have no information of that. it is a powerful metaphor for the catholic church's addiction that is a bigger problem with the child sexual abuse crisis and unclear that can change. >> rick stengel, we have the new issue of "time." let's unveil it. it, of course, has wes welker on the cover -- the new hope. >> wes? >> new world pope. >> new world pope. as a lot of folks have been

saying this morning, he's an insider and an outsider. he is from south america but of italian heritage and orthodox issues and he is an interesting choice. the citation of st. francis is something that appeals to a lot of people. he's on the side of the poor but, as you know from your own knowledge of the jesuits he is also citing francis xavier who was an evangelist in asia. >> that's good. jon meacham, you are not. but it is fascinating as you look at what this man has done in his own life. the choices he's made after becoming allegedly runner-up instead of staying inside the vatican as another argentinean cardinal did, he went back home and said that he would wither if he was not with his people. >> right.

and he renounced living in the grand palace for cardinals in be buenos aires and he cooks for himself. the food i'm told in the vatican when guys -- it's so bad and forces them to try to get somebody quickly. >> it will be interesting to see how this pope i want grates into the vatican culture. i remember when i covered the vatican and traveled around with john paul, ii we would sit in the plane and watch sumptuous meals up to the plane and how they lived. here a guy who is humble and lives a live of kind of poverty. how he fits in will be interesting. >> cardinal o'connor said after they were going back to the residents, francis hopped in the same bus as the other cardinals rather than have some special

transportation which is another lovely example of his humility. >> monsignor dionne, every pope brings a personality to the papacy. francis has not been pope for 24 hours so we don't know how this is going to play out but we do know about him thus far is he's a jesuit. he is truly invested in the aspect of social justice. the catholic church, one of the finer aspects of the catholic church, catholic relief services around the world and catholic charities here at home, this hope, we can assume, is not going to change doctrine according to "the new york times" but we do know he was struck clearly by st. francis. he chose pope francis. the first time that name has been employed in the papacy. we do know that francis of assisi in the 13th century had a

vision of jesus who came to him and said rebuild my church, it is falling into ruins. so what are the possibilities, e.j., that this is a transitional pope who might be far stronger in the renewal of the church and bringing the church back to people in a way that it hasn't been brought back to people in quite some time? >> well, i like that hopeful note. i just want to point out rick stengel pointed out to us miracle that happened in the conclave, bad food, finding bad food in italy is a miracle. it takes a lot of work. but i think his identity is a jesuit, it's important to know that not all jesuits are liberal and there were some conflicts within the jesuits where he was very decidedly on the conservative side. i know some jesuits here in america yesterday who weren't overjoyed by a first jesuit as

you might expect but choosing the name st. francis and his lifestyle and what he said about the poor, i think that does point in the direction that mike -- that mike talked about and that, you know, francis was someone who is both humble in his own personal aspect but totally devoted to the marginalized. my favorite st. francis quote is prayer the gospel always, if necessary use words. it's a real challenge to a pope to have your patron saint, if you will, tell you that words don't matter as much as deed. >> i also think, chris matthews, the challenge will be to connect with young people around the world. would you agree? >> yeah, and i think they do that pretty well with it, but the big event when they go around the world and they have the big assembles, hundreds of thousands of people show up in places like buenos aires and rio and mexico city they are very good at that but getting people to go to church with enthusiasm

and even when their parents have been prodding them to go to church until they are 18 and go to college is pretty tough. i mean, it's so ironic. sometimes kids decide to go and keep going and even other kids choose to go and not to and it's in your brain soup whether you want to go to church or willing to go. to hear something in terms of the sermon that relates to you and your life and the way you have to make decisions is the tough one. i go back to something i said the other day about sermons. i've been going since i was born and i don't remember any. >> that's the problem! >> that's not a good sign, chris! >> it's not a good sign. i know they make an evident but -- you know, mika, some are so elevated. >> it's a little tough. i'm not going to lie to you. >> i don't know what they are talking about. >> and that, i think, is, you know, from the top down, they have to it really think about how to generate the message and the traditions and the doctrines

of the church which i understand why they want to stick to them but you to communicate them as well. >> i was struck by that and only a few moments of hearing him speak to go on, but when he came out on to that balcony last my and looked down at this huge crowd and a moment i thought he looks overwhelmed and unprepared for this. with a twinkle in his eye and very soft smile, he said, you know, brothers and sisters, good evening. the cardinals had to go to the end of the world it seems to find the new pope. he had a sense of humor and he had a sense of connection with that crowd and a warmth and a humility, obviously, as you've all said about asking them to pray for him. it struck me he had the ability like we saw in john paul, ii and reaching out to it people just in his manner and i think that is important when he goes and talks to rio and young catholics and tries to get all of the young latin americans who are

leaving the church and tries to get them back into the church and his work with poor people i think will make a difference in latin america. what i wonder is how he reaches out to catholics here who are split in north america between liberal catholics and more conservative catholics as chris was saying the pope of philadelphia. how do you think he manages that and how does he get catholics in america back into church? >> i think he has to be what he is, which is a very good social justice guy. and i think that will appeal to liberals. liberals don't expect any dramatic changes. they do want the mess cleaned up. the hypocrisy of the church. they have a set of rule on behavior and live by it, generally live by it. not perfection but generally live by it. if they don't live by it, they are hypocrites and what a lot of catholics who have stopped going to church believe. they say one thing and instruct in one way and don't act that way. it is hone rrrendous.

collection money going out to pay legal fees and legal settlements to cover up more. every settlement is a cover-up and they have to keep doing that. it drives irish, polish, italian catholics crazy. drives them crazy. >> frank, you were talking about how you would have these sumptuous meals taken up to the front of the vatican. >> i always notice the food. >> yeah, but, you know, i took my family around the vatican this past year. this past last summer. and was struck by all of the gold there. and just kept thinking of jesus, the humbled servient who talked about servant leadership and who washed others feet and said the first shall be last and the last first. who the only offering he ever gave praise to was the penny by the poor widow. i'm just wondering, as we talk

about hypocrisy if having a pope who focuses much on the poor as francis has is not just as important as cleaning up other messes that have to be cleaned up in the catholic church. because there has always been such a disconnect between the wealth of the vatican and the message of jesus christ. >> apparently, it's not a sin to be wealthy. >> i think one of the things that the cardinals accomplished by choosing this pope is a change of a conversation. we have eluded to it in our talk this morning. there has been loofs discussion of the hypocrisy and there is a whole other part of the church which is about the needy and poor. that is the soul of the church. i think one of the important things about this election is let's talk about that aspect of the church work and that is less controversial and that is more back in line with what jesus

taught and let's bore in on that. >> that is the soul of the church if you go through your red letter edition you have jesus obsessing on the poor and feeding the hungry and bringing hope to the hope. . you don't see the obsession on sexual morality which i'm not saying the church shouldn't take care of that. it is horrific what the catholic church has done. if that is cleaned up there is another part of the church hasn't been addressed, pa pock r hypocrisy that hasn't been addressed. >> back to monsignor dionne. this pope, given his background as a jesuit, given who the

jesuits are and what the jesuit tradition is all about, he could sell some of those paintings in the vatican and pay off the bankrupt parrishishes in this country. given who this pope is, do you believe he could come to north america, he could go to west post, connecticut, in beverly hills, california, and wealthy catholics and remind them at the end of the day, we are all poor, all of us? >> that's a good sermon. you have to go to chris' church! i think that is probably right and he could do all of those. >> i would hate to be -- at the end of mass this morning going to shake the priest's hand but go ahead. >> the guy who didn't live in the big house but lived in the apartment, same is true, of sean

o'malley in boston, the guy who takes public transit, this is a guy who clearly understands it may be personal humility but he understands the symbolic power of doing stuff like that. i think when i read this about him, i said, this could be very useful for the church. but i still think he does need to take some steps on issues like the role of women in the church as well the scandal. he could actually appoint women to the college of cardinals. there is no rule that he couldn't. that would be a powerful gesture. the third largest religious denomination in the united states is former catholics and they have left for a variety of reasons. some for the scandal. some because they stopped believing. but maybe also are women who are the most loyal people in the church who said, wait a minute, we just can't stay in an institution that hasn't been able to adjust at all. and i think he could still, even as a conservative and

traditionalist take steps in that direction. >> chris matthews, final thoughts. >> i think that's where i'm at too. my aunt eleanor began teaching people we used to call retarded kids, special education back in 1944. she is still identify and i talked to her last week. she is city alive. since 1944 teaching kids with special needs and the great scene at the end of a movie the nuns eating a good meal and priests feasting. they say nuns die happy and priests die unhappy. i don't know why it is but maybe the different level of investment. the nuns give everything and when you give everything, we are taught you are totally invested. it's something has to be redistributed there. the nuns have hung in there and they are good people and generally moderate to liberal people on economic issues. not that they are all democrats but a lot of them are. i think they really do care

about social and economic justice and those are important things to me, those who are laughing now and they may not be to some of the prides in the room but they are important to some catholics like e.j. and he i. >> i hope the nuns will protect you, chris. good luck. >> good luck, chris. >> thank you. >> i went to pensacola catholic high school and what chris said about nuns giving their all and investing their all and investing in their lives not only the children they taught but also sister margaret, sister barbara, all of the sisters that i saw, they lived -- >> they whipped you into shape. >> they really did. they made a great difference in my life but they didn't have a valid poverty but they danny have much and you know what? they didn't care because they were true to the ministry. >> and at pensacola catholic high school, who did you listen to? >> i left hand to sister

margaret. i was scared not to. she was wonderful. >> e.j. and chris matthews, thank you. chris, see you on "hardball" at 7:00 on msnbc tonight. still ahead on "morning joe," microsoft bill gates says if congress was a business, it probably would have failed by now. he joins us later in the show. it's okay. we will just bail it out. up next, former congressman barney frank is here. you're watching "morning joe," brewed by starbucks. morning, brian! love your passat! um. listen, gary. i bought the last one. nice try. says right here you can get one for $199 a month. you can't believe the lame-stream media, gary. they're all gone. maybe i'll get one. [ male announcer ] now everyone's going to want one.

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the differences are just too wide. if their position is we can't do any revenue or only do revenue if we gut medicare or gut social

security or gut medicaid, if that is the position, then we are probably not going to be able to get a deal. >> wow. >> all right. 26 past of the hour. joining us now former democratic congressman from massachusetts, barney frank. great to have you on the show. >> thank you. >> thanks for coming back. frank bruni and rick stengel is still bus. >> barney has quotes from your dad. >> he does. i can't read his writing put it's from strategic vision. impressive. should i he read it? i don't know. >> i can tell you. we have talked about it. you know. we do see america's military spending is essential and a responsible way to reduce a did he and can do it at no loss to security area we start s subsidizing. your father has a good insight saying in that quote after their

empirs crumbled, europe decided to leave the task of maintaining global security to america so they could use their resources to build their safety net. that is the best summary of that central point that comes from a guy who they can't accuse of being an isolationist or unaware of the national implications. >> we have been talking about this a long time after the sequestration story hit. we heard hpeople saying there i a hollow force and we couldn't slash this much spending. then you dig into the numbers and find out that the pentagon was going up and up and up. so it's with a hallowed force because we are going to continue even under the sequester. >> to defend the military, some of the people who are from the military, mostly conservative, not all, then decided to use the

jobs argument because they couldn't -- i just saw a piece that is coming out and says the sequester has now completed the victory in america because when it was the stimulus, many conservatives said federal spending doesn't do anything for jobs but when it's defense, all of a sudden, this is the new deal and it's the wpa. so now everybody agreed. the second point is when you talk about hallowed out, briefly, leon panetta, a good guy and i admired by him hymn but overdoes the job he is pointed to. he said we could not hallow out the military again. he said we have done that after world war ii and cold war and vietnam war. now the colder war ended before bill clinton became president and who was bill clinton's budget director? leon panetta. leon is apparently now cop to hollow out the military and i

think budget director panetta was better on this. >> so, frank, we had a politico report and we worked jim over pretty tough when jim was saying that politico headline was house republicans meet the new obama, same as the old obama and said we will never get a deal because the president is insisting on more tax revenue. john boehner is insisting on no tax revenue and wants big entitlement cuts over the next generation. i'm still hopeful. i think it says something that the president went to the hill and that the republicans were actually respectful. >> absolutely. you want them to talk to each other. one of the big problems during this presidency is nobody is talking to each other. i think where there is conversation, there is hope. but to get back to what you said about taxes, if there is no give on revenue having laid down the lines that the obama administration has, if republicans won't give it all on loopholes a anything. >> but they will. >> if they do, then i think we are in business, because, you

know, then i think there is something to talk about. >> i don't mean to speak for the entire party but, barney, i mean, you know better than anybody how it goes. you get somebody in front of the camera. you're in front of the camera and you're a first turn or second turn democrat from massachusetts, barney are you giving on entitlements? you say no. you ask me is a first or second-term republican? no, we just gave them tax increases. we are not doing it again. but then you get the cameras off and people say, okay i'll give you this, you give me that. taking care of the long-term debt is so important. >> i'm closer to you now than when you were a first or second-term republican. >> you like him more. >> he didn't say that. >> personally i always liked him. i would be asked by a reporter in the midst of a negotiation will you do this or that? i'd have to ask the reporters, how many votes do you have in the senate? i can't negotiate with you when you can't give me anything in return. but i do think i'm more

pessimistic for this reason, joe. i think the most important dynamic in american politics is the debate in the republican party whether you maintain the tea party kind of purism or whether you move. it's cargo versus ran paul. i think them to be in a compromising mode. i'm afraid now that the tea party wing has fought back harder and i think it may take another lelection. >> there is a force in primaries. >> it troubles me. one of the things i've always say if you're in the party leadership you better have 100% safe seat because if you're a party leader, you've got to take decisions that make people angry and i learned that myself when i was chairman of the financial service committee and we worked on the financial reform and i think it was both highly successful and wildly unpopular and i had the toughest fight in my life in 30 years.

mitch mcconnell concern about his primary in kentucky is one of the down sides. >> caty, you look at the tea party and what motivates a lot of people that got into the tea party. and it's the same divide that we had in '94 half of us came in obsessed on the debt. the other half came in obsessed on tax cuts. tom colburn is like me. i think the debt is high enough if you live in new york or connecticut or urban, the more urb urb urban centric states. i think they will strike a deal. what do you hear? >> yeah. i think -- what is new right is the tax cut of obsession and the pledge that was signed back in 2008 by the tea party members who came in then. and that is what kind of gummed up the system in a way for a

while. back room negotiations thaw were talking about, joe, that united kingdom do off camera, you can't do if you sign that pledge. if your single focus of being in congress to say i'm not raising taxes ever, you can't then do the kinds of deals that you're suggesting need to be done to close loopholes in order to address the long-term debt. can i ask the congressman a question? he's the perfect person to answer something i've been thinking about. we have had the ninth day in a row of the markets rising and dow reaching market highs. i thought the markets would turn on washington and say we don't think they can get their act together and turn on the country and see interest rates go up. actually it seems to me the markets have voted that congress is irrelevant. >> barney -- >> that -- >> katty was asking we heard the sequester and all of its dysfunction in washington was causing rebellion for the market and keep going up and sends a signal that actually washington doesn't matter.

>> no. it is a fairly small percentage of cuts in the budget evenly distributed is not all that disruptive. i want to say one point in your favor and i'm still pessimistic and a couple of months you had conservatives say we cannot sustain these defense cuts. it does turn out with the new republican party support for debt reduction has trumped military spending and i think we have the makings of a bipartisan wings coalition. i think military spending is going to come down to a realistic point and that is an important element in getting the deficit under control. defense cuts and we have had >> that's a great example, rick. over the past couple of months tax increases and defense cuts we heard the republicans would not support tax increases and we because more republicans are heard they would never support obsessed or enough are obsessed about long-term debt to go ahead and put some of these other issues to the side. >> but if you're obsessed by that and concerned by it, you have to go to the places where the money is. medicare and medicaid and

sdraei want to ask the congressman a last question. my bias is that reporters, because they don't understand economics or really understand the way congress works, place too much emphasis on personal relations on the president has got to have people over to the white house and they have to all go out to dinner and lbj used to put his arm around people. is that exaggerated or a legitimate concern? >> grossly exaggerated. i was there 32 years and had presently relationships with people i never could work things out. lbj would put his arm around people and say i know you have a dam important to you and i don't mean it's able to put it forward if this happens. i think the personal is greatly exaggerate rated. put it this way. bad relations can make things worse and good personal relations can make things better. if people dislike each other that can make it worse. i think we are talking about things that are too profound.

one other thing i have to say with the tea party. not just debt. tlrge people whom i disagree and opposed to the role of the government and for some people the debt is a way to make cuts in programs they never would have voted for in the first place and didn't like. you know who said that? dave stockman in his book. he said i came to washington and found all of these programs i thought were hoisted on the people by the liberals and turned out popular in our district. the notion to cut taxes to starve the beast goes back to that. an element they he want to not just reduce the yet but do it in a way that reduces government programs. that's another reason why taxes are not neutral as to how you reduce the debt. cutting programs does both reducing the debt and cutting medicare and social security. >> the great challenge, of course, is taking care of the long-term debt. we talk about this around the table all the time. you can cut discretionary but it

won't take care of your long-term debt. that is 12%, 13% of the budget. we have to reformed medicare and medicaid and social security. defense is in there as well. if you do all of those things, not only do you take care of long-term debt and if you do it with a long enough lead time you can do it without hurting people 54, 55, 56. >> one thing. yes, it's important to reform medicare and medicaid. as part of a reform of medical care in america, i would not have voted for something which puts some constraints on medicare and medicaid and left the rest of the medical center unprotected. so had had to be reform of the medical care system the single biggest thing. >> that is our greatest challenge. >> former congressman barney frank, thank you so much. great to see you and thanks for being a piece of strategic vision to the table. >> thank you. on tomorrow's show reverend

al sharpton will join us and ann leery will be here with her new book. coming up on "morning joe," the world according to dick cheney. awe new documentary profiles the former vice president and we will talk to the director of that film straight ahead. ♪ i wonder how much there is to know ♪ [ male announcer ] you are a business pro. executor of efficiency. you can spot an amateur from a mile away... while going shoeless and metal-free in seconds. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle...and go. you can even take a full-size or above, and still pay the mid-size price. now this...will work. [ male announcer ] just like you, business pro. just like you. go national. go like a pro. but at xerox we've embraced a new role. working behind the scenes

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up next a new documentary tackles one of the most polarizing figures in politics. >> tell me what terrorist attacks you would have let go forward because you don't want to be a mean and nasty fellow. are you going to trade the lives of a number of people because you want to preserve your -- your honor, or are you going to do your job, do what is required first and foremost your responsibility to safeguard the united states of america and the lives of its citizens? >> director and producer "the world according to dick cheney" r.j. cutler is here. we will be right back.

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dick cheney unquestionably is the most powerful vice president in history. he changed the course of history in a way that no vice president has. >> he did not want to be flexible. he just felt you had to get in the face of the terrorists or the potential threats and use extreme measures. >> almost any man can stand up under adversity. but if you want to really know a man's character, give him power. >> i wanted to spend all of their time trying to do -- be loved by everybody, probably aren't doing much. if you're not prepared to have critics and to be subject to criticism, then, you know, you're in the wrong line of work. if you want to be loved, go be a movie star. >> that's a clever.

the director and producer of the documentary is us now, r.j. cutler. good sound bite. >> a great sound bite. >> thank you for being here. tell me. once said deck cheney had changed since he knew him working in the bush administration. talk about how much he was changed by 9/11. >> it seems to be, as bob woodward says in our film the hinge of history for deck cheney. it was the event that altered or kind of -- his world view and turned him into the man we kind of understand him as somebody who is singularly obsessed with making certain that no matter what, america was not attacked on its soil again. >> this was not going to happen again. that is what drove him. >> that is, as he says in our film, became his duty and in the context of that, nothing else mattered. he speaks in the film about the

fact that honor itself doesn't matter in the face of duty which is a pretty startling thing to hear him satisfy. >> wow. >> you interviewed him last june. did he find it ironic that a lot of the same people that had attacked him unmercifully while he was vice president had adopted many of his policies? >> we didn't speak about that, but he -- you know, as you know, he has redefined the vice presidency in the wake of his time in office as much as he redefined it as he was in office. he has been an active critic of the obama administration and also feels that to the extent that -- that his policies have been adopted, he hasn't been given proper credit for it. so he -- you know, he continues to have an ax to grind and much to say. >> it would be hard, mike barnicle, for a lot of those people to give him credit for adopting his policies because while he was doing it, they were claiming he was shredding the

institutio constitution. now they are doing it, they are keeping america safe. a heavy burden people carry when their job carry when their job is to protect this country. be it democrats or republicans. >> the flip side of that with the former vice president, i wonder what was your sense in talking to him and interviewing him, did you get any sense of regret from him over the fact that, you know, we had this disaster called iraq spawned in part by deceit. any sense of regret over that? >> strikingly none at all. in fact, i think he is more certain of the rightness of his policies and his actions today than ever before and no sense really that in spite of the fact that the world changed dramatically around him while he was in office, his own view of the world did not change at all. and so no sense that he regrets that. nothing to apologize for. he says many times in the film that -- and notably at the end

if he had it all to do over again, he would do it all the same way and in a minute. again, that's very striking. >> the motivation for him saying that is what? that we weren't attacked after 9/11? >> that's the justification. he sees the effort in iraq as successful and he sees his policies and he sees his policies as successful and he sees his behavior, the actions that he took to ensure those policies became american policy as the right things to have done. >> i have to chide my colleague because as you know, no politician in history has ever expressed regret about anything. you can't ask him if they have any regret. >> i have never seen it. >> he didn't express regret. he did a complicated analysis of how history recalls the victors. >> doubling down is the usual

response. what is the most misunderstood thing about dick cheney for better or for worse? >> well, i'm not sure -- there isn't one way of seeing dick cheney as you know. he's such a polarizing figure. as we have shown this film around the country, it sparks strong reactions from the left, strong reactions from the right, he is a figure who history will always, i think, examine because who he is and what he did has a lot to say about what we look for in our leaders and what succeeds and what makes a democracy work and not work. here's a man of conviction. conviction is a requirement for democracy to succeed. his conviction is so total and uncompromising that some would argue that it causes democracy to grind to a halt and can be destructive to a democracy. he's a really complicated man. he is also the single most, i think, impactful nonpresidential

politician this country has ever known. it's hard to say there are individual things that are misunderstood because people see in him vastly different things as you know. >> r.j. cutler, thank you so much. the word according to dick cheney. >> congratulations on "nashville." >> we're proud of that. thank you. >> the world according to dick cheney is on showtime tomorrow at 9:00 eastern and pacific time. thanks again. good to meet you. still ahead on "morning joe," we'll talk to bill gates in just a moment. we'll be right back. [ kitt ] you know what's impressive? a talking car. but i'll tell you what impresses me. a talking train. this ge locomotive can tell you exactly where it is, what it's carrying, while using less fuel.

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coming up next, pope francis comes from the new world. will he continue the church's old world ways? 1.2 billion catholics want to know. we'll discuss next on "morning joe." do we have a mower? no. a trimmer? no. we got nothing. we just bought our first house, we're on a budget. we're not ready for spring. well let's get you ready. very nice. you see these various colors. we got workshops every saturday. yes, maybe a little bit over here. this spring, take on more lawn for less.

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good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast. 5:00 a.m. on the west coast. you need to wake up. >> stay in bed. >> get out of bed now. you're late. >> pull the covers over your head. >> a live look at new york city. welcome back to "morning joe." we'll help you wake up. back on set, you will fall asleep now. here's mike barnicle and john meacham. >> it's exciting. new pope from the americas. this hasn't happened in 1,200 years. a pope outside of europe. and while he is conservative on many theological issues, he's also aggressively been a

champion of the dispossessed and there are a lot of people are quite hopeful. >> well, much of what lies ahead for the catholic church now rests on the shoulders of pope francis. the former archbishop of buenes arias. he's the first pope from latin america where more than 41% of the world's catholics live. he was selected on the fifth round of voting at the secret conclave. his name announced to a crowd of over 100,000 people gathered in st. peter's square. that was quite a sight to watch unfold. >> the theater of the church is unmatched. unparalleled when you consider the ramifications of what we all watched yesterday. hundreds of thousands of people in st. peter's square.

millions around the world watching this. everything in doubt until those doors opened. the theater of black smoke and white smoke. there was no red state, blue state, no chuck todd standing in front of a map announcing winners. >> not that we don't love that. >> i know. >> not that there's anything wrong with that. >> until that door opened, we did not know who the next pope would be and the significance of the choice is overwhelming as well. the pope crosses the ocean to latin america. first time it's happened as you pointed out, joe. and a jesuit. truly significant. a jesuit as pope. >> explain briefly if you will. jesuits for some time have been seen as outsiders of the church and in fact the founder of the jesuit order actually did not want jesuits to even become bishops because he wanted them to be outsiders. >> as part of their vows, jesuit take the vow to seek no higher

cleric office. once they become bishop or cardinals they're free from their jesuit rights but the incoming pope asked if he would accept the position, yes. he chose the name francis. there's francis exavier and francis assisi had a vision that jesus came to him and said to him, rebuild my church. and in a sense pope francis, that is his task. i think that's what he was alluded to yesterday in the brief remarks that he made. another significant factor that occurred yesterday was when he came out on the balcony. he chose to begin his papacy with a moment of silent prayer. not a lecture. a moment of silent prayer. >> i will tell you. that's what was most compelling about yesterday for many that were in the crowds and many that

follow the vatican. mike talks about the pageantry of the vatican and of the catholic church. but yesterday when he went out standing above the crowds and instead of blessing the crowds as popes have done for nearly two centuries, he began his papacy by asking them to bless him. to pray for him. and not only was that a change from the past, he also -- the way he lived in argentina. he is a matthew xxv christian so to speak who has been focused on the downtrodden for much of his ministry. >> absolutely. one of the interesting tensions always is you have these men of god who represent and believe they are these successors of one

of the most -- i think one of the oldest continuous human institutions, the roman catholic church. they believe they stand on the rock of peter and yet they embody a gospel that is about the first shall be last and they are in fact the first among the princes of the church. >> and jon, i want you to follow up on that point. but also there are a couple of moments of course when christ bathed the disciples and washed disciples feet and said if you want to be first, you must be last. that's exactly what this pope did in 2001 "the new york times" reports when he went to a buenos air aires hospital and asked for water and went around to aids patients and washed his feet. >> we'll celebrate that in about two weeks. it's about that. the commandment to love one another as i have loved you.

i think the critical thing for the church now is can francis who has taken this name of an obedient, humble man that cares about the poor and lived -- the saint who lived among the poor. had been a rich guy. the original francis had a wasteful youth according to legend and had a moment of conversion. will in fact this pope be able to embody and enact a gospel that's about reversal? >> carl bernstein, you have written a book about a pope. there was a lot of talk about this decision yesterday, this vote yesterday, that the catholic church needed a turning of the page. a look to the next generation. it's new and different by geography. from what you know about this man, from what you have studied, does he represent a new face, a new turning of the page for the

cathol catholic church? >> it's a savvy choice by the cardinals who knew exactly what they wanted and probably what they're getting. remember, john paul ii also is someone whose commitment to the poor and those who couldn't help themselves and people he called the other, the marginalized, was every bit as great as any pope has been. there's real continuity. the gospels themselves are about and catholic social teaching, the great contribution of the church to the world, catholic social teaching is caring for the poor, educating, taking care of the sick, community, so this continuity will go on plus he has obvious humility which appeals to the cardinals. they knew that. and at the same time they knew they had a church in crisis that's under great pressure and attack from within and from without. and the hope is that he can deal with this and at the same time

the teachings of the church that these cardinals all of whom are appointed by benedict and john paul ii, the teachings in regard to sex and regard to gender, the role of the priesthood, et cetera, he will be a fierce defender of these traditions they believe and at the same time i would think that he knows that the role of women have to change. that the nuns of the church are one of the great assets of this church and he knows the nuns. he has worked with the nuns. it might be a way forward to increasing the role of women while at the same time not inhibiting the traditional priesthood. >> in order to be a defender of the traditions of the catholic church but also bring this church into the future, he's going to have to have his own version and this is the big question of what pope john paul ii brought to the table which was a certain charisma, a certain ability to galvanize young people and that remains to

be seen. >> the world youth day which john paul ii used to great effect and loved young people coming up in brazil next year. that will be a huge event and everything we know about this new pope tells us that he will perform great acts and relates to them. >> what about the significance of where he is from being from latin america? >> this is the continent in the world that has the largest number of catholics but also seeing a declining catholic population. people in latin america are flocking to pentecostal churches. this pope is going to have to deal with issues of governance, the trust in the church. he's going to have to address the sex abuse scandal. he's also got to get catholics back into the pews, back into churches and maybe part of the way he can do that in latin america is because he has worked with the poor and poor people so

much at the forefront of his own ministry. he said a couple years ago i live in a continent that's seen huge economic growth but also massive growth in inequality. the poor of latin america have not benefited from the economic growth that we've seen and maybe that's a message amongst latin americans can help get the catholic churches full again. that's restoring faith both in his own continent but also here in north america and in europe where it's declining very rapidly is going to be central to this pope's mission. >> of course jon meacham, there have been challenges and there will be challenges to this pope selection from people inside and outside of the church because he is conservative theologically. "the wall street journal" writes this morning as for lament that pope francis is merely another catholic that believes in cathol catholic dogma, what did you

expect? they think religion needs to be less religious to survive in the modern world. this strikes us as a misreading of the appeal of christianity since its founding. i agree with that by the way. why do you go to church if you want to be the same as secular elites? that said, he has throughout his life balanced two worlds. he grew up in latin america when as you know and mike certainly remembers, you had this liberation theology and mixing of marxism and christianity which was the rage in the '60s and '70s and '80s and he resisted that. while doing that he also provided absolutely no comfort to the wealthy there. and in fact sided on the side of

the dispossessed. so he's proven he can walk a fine line between two competing interests. >> absolutely. i think it's a critical point here that this is a john paul ii culture of life orthodox holy father. this is not someone who is sweeping in with some new theological vision. one of the most interesting things to me about catholicism is in fact the intellectual consistency of that culture of life. they are unlike american political parties for instance they actually do support life in most throughout the various stages. they are anti-abortion. they are also anti-death penalty. they are for caring for the poor. they care about people who actually after they were born and so there's a kind of

coherence to what john paul ii preached and what francis embodies so the question will be one of emphasis of degree and not of kind in terms of change. >> you know, jon, one of the more interesting aspects of his papacy i think to many people is the fact that he is a jesuit and jesuits are in forefront of the catholic fight for social justice throughout the world. catholic relief services around the globe, catholic charities here at home and i'm struck by the vision that according to legend francis xavier had in the 13th century when christ visited him and told him to rebuild my church it is falling into ruin. that is supposedly what he was told and now this pope at the age of 76 it raises the question and as you pointed out, the rules are the rules. we'll set doctrine to one side. those are rules. those aren't going to change

under this pope. he's not all of a sudden going to have women up on the alter and things like that. that won't occur. we should get that straight to the disappointment of a great many americans. on the other hand, rebuilding the church, giving voice to what the church is truly all about, caring for the poor, addressing income inequality not only in latin america but throughout the world, the growth of the church in terms of faith and the spirit that this pope will bring to that faith. that to me is going to be an interesting thing to watch. >> there's also the fact that as the pope said that the church is about the teachings of christ including what this pope and his predecessors regard as these teachings that he is not going to give on in terms of what the liturgy is and role of priesthood, et cetera. at the same time, in his resume and in the resume of the jesuit,

remember that he took their leadership. he threw them out because they were too radical in his belief that she had gotten too close to the marksixist and this new pop comes from that replaced leadership. he knows how to move the fine line which cardinals are good at between the competing factions and beliefs and theology goes on unchanging. >> coming up on "morning joe," he's being described as a protege of pope john paul ii. >> are we talk about mike barnicle? >> not you, mike. wow. will the new pope francis pick up where he left off? we'll talk to a woman who was a none for 20 years with mother theresa before leaving the church just ahead.

and next microsoft's bill gates joins us. here's bill karins with a check on the forecast. >> good morning to you, mika. spring break down in the south. florida is not feeling like it this morning. many areas are cold. that sun is already up. it will do its thing. plenty nice this afternoon. right now in orlando, it's 44. 54 in miami. ch it still looks and feels like winter from the great lakes to the eastern seaboard. as i said, the sun goes to work. it will do it's thing down in florida getting you up to upper 60s and low 70s. not beach weather but we'll watch the cold air from chicago all of the way to the northeast. the western half of the country is incredibly warm and beautiful. phoenix could have their first 90-degree day of this new year. that starts your warm weather season and l.a. is still beautiful. still rainy in seattle. what's next? a little clipper low is going to come down. weak clipper storms come down from alberta clipper in canadian. they don't have a lot of moisture to work with. they'll produce enough light snow for travel trouble on friday from minneapolis to wisconsin and saturday morning

up through the great lakes. looks to weaken by the time it gets to the east coast. not expecting a lot of impacts in new england as far as snow. the gray coloring shows you one to three inches. only alleges bit of three to six there central portions of minnesota and wisconsin. i have my eyes on possibility of a bigger storm for the great lakes and northeast come tuesday, wednesday of next week. we'll wait for that in the details coming in the days ahead. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. thank you orville and wilbur... ...amelia... neil and buzz: for teaching us that you can't create the future... by clinging to the past. and with that: you're history. instead of looking behind... delta is looking beyond. 80 thousand of us investing billions... in everything from the best experiences below...

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welcome back to "morning joe." it's 22 past the hour. beautiful day in washington. here with us now from capitol hill, we have the co-chair of the bill and melinda gates foundation, bill gates, co-fo d co-founder of microsoft. mike barnicle and rick stengel are still with us. >> mr. gates, great to have you here. you are of course -- we look behind you and see the capitol behind you. how do we measure the performance of the men and women who work in that building behind you and how important is it to start applying best practices to not only our governing body there but also to people who decide what the rules of the game are for you? >> well, i think those people are working hard but right now the uncertainty about the budget

means that the government is particularly inefficient. that means when you want to make a plan that's going to take multiple years, you don't know if you have the money, if you want to try to hire someone from the private sector. you're going to have a hard time because of those uncertainties. so the lack of direction is making these programs less effective than they would normally be. >> is it particularly frustrating for you and other people in the high tech industry that we can't even allow people from other countries to come to this nation and help grow our businesses here if they have certain skills that some of our people don't have? >> that's certainly been an issue. and there is up in the senate a bipartisan agreement on how this program could be expanded significantly and allow the

people who come from overseas and get educated here and get offered high paying jobs that create other jobs around them, those people could be welcomed to the country. the issue is tied to the broader immigration problem which is tougher so this high skills piece, i think, if that was by itself, you would have quick agreement but right now it won't -- it's not planned to be pushed through except as part of large immigration bill. there isn't the same bipartisan agreement at this point. >> last time you were here you talked about using metrics to measure success. >> the private sector is the best at coming up with measures that count and constantly making sure they are making progress and looking at anyone else who is doing a similar thing and if

they're making more progress learning from them. at that lesson can apply to government programs. in foreign aid where we have very limited dollars and so much need, the idea of okay which vaccine should be gotten out to people, which country is doing a good job delivering that vaccine, how do we get those numbers and make sure that we learn from the very, very best. that has really been in the last ten years the aid is focused on that. before that it was very much this country is against the soviet union. they're our friend. we won't be that picky about how they spend the money. now it's less about the cold war and more about the humanitarian benefit and the stability that leads to far better national security environment that people are healthy, population growth is less, country is stable, you

won't have unrest that causes gigantic military costs. this business-like thinking is something that our foundation is trying to pioneer and trying to partner with others and set an example. it's the only way we'll succeed with polio ratification. if we are driven to find the best approach. >> let's talk about that. there's a goal that you have to eradicate polio by the year 2018. how do metrics play into that? >> well, the magic here is you have to get 90% of the kids to have these vaccine drops and so you have to hire vaccinateors and make sure map is right about where they go. it's 9 million a year for the next year to get this done. no more polio. you won't have to spend money. when i was on the hill yesterday i was asking for 150 million allocated to really get it done to go up to 200 million.

so that's an extra 50 million which normally for something of such great import would be simple. it's a tiny thing. with the budget uncertainty even something as important as that will take a lot of very hard work so the u.s. in total would be the second biggest donor after our foundation. it's a plan that's very measurement orientated. this is the thing i spend most of my time on now. >> you mentioned a word that we hear over and over and over again from people that arrive here from the world of business and it's uncertainty. we hear uncertainty, uncertainty, uncertainty. can you give us some specific examples of how this uncertainty impacts not only your global fund, but the business that you help form, microsoft. how does it impact it on a daily or weekly basis? >> well, for microsoft

government related revenues aren't gigantic enough that the budget uncertainty is a big problem for them. as you get out into things like foreign aid or companies that are, you know, say defense suppliers, the idea of what should i be doing, will this program go forward? what do i say to my people about building up capacity? it can't go on like this. even by government standards it's fairly unprecedented to have budgets that could go down by so much and even the accounting of how you're supposed to quickly cut programs, does that mean is it okay to just defer building maintenance? is it really allowed to do these furloughs? the system wasn't designed for the cuts to be done this way. so hopefully we'll get back to a more normal budget process.

>> rick? >> bill, good morning. as you know we did a story recently about efforts to eradicate polio and your efforts which i commend you for. one of the things we discovered, which i think you know as well, is that in places like pakistan and afghanistan, there is a resurgence of polio in small pockets where people are prevented from giving the injections and where basically folks like the taliban feel like this is a western plot to infiltrate their country. is that frustrating to you? >> well, yes. the insecurities are a real challenge. the access to kids is better this year than it was last year. actually last year pakistan polio cases were down. only place they were up was nigeria. only three countries now. you're right. the violence means that sometimes you get access and sometimes you don't.

in many areas you can work with whoever the local power broker is there and you get letters of passage. so for example in afghanistan where there are several hundred thousand children we didn't have access to, now we have access to all but 30,000, which means we'll be quite successful up there. but the violence is the new element that's really concerning us. vaccinators have been killed in both nigeria and pakistan so it's impressive that health workers continue to work on this. we believe the plan can succeed. anything we can do to up the security to make it clear this is beneficial for all children to get muslim voices behind us which a lot of them are speaking up in a fantastic way, that's why it still hangs in the balance whether this disease will be eradicated. >> really quickly. as we end here, you were, i guess, at a politico interview and you suggested that on some

days even though our system works better than great britain's system, you say on some days you almost wish the president had a little bit more power in the system because that way people could vote up or down parties. do you think one of the problems that we've had over the past decade is just how divided our government is and how divided our country is? >> absolutely. it's a concern. our system has worked so fantastically over hundreds of years. we're better than anyone else's system including the u.k. and so i hope that the self-correction where we'll elect people more in the middle or who are more focused on getting things done, you know, that that kind of thing emerges but right now it does feel a little bit dysfunctional and not only is that a concern for the u.s., the whole world looks to us as the leader. they want us to do things well and set an example and to be

able to keep being generous and have a model of excellence even in things like health care where we have had such challenges. so it's definitely got to be concerning and do you see signs that people are moving back toward a pragmatic look at solving budget issues. >> let's hope so. >> bill gates, thank you very much. good to see you. good to have you on the show again. coming up, reformers. >> congratulations by the way. you got an entire episode without attacking apple. >> i did not attack apple. i didn't try to pit him against apple like i did last time. >> that was uncomfortable. >> reformers versus romans. with lingering divisions inside the catholic church, how will pope francis steer a global ministry faced with significant challenges. "morning joe" is back in a moment. [ both ] we're foodies.

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♪ all right. as we take a look at the vatican. joining us now from phoenix, former nun and author of an

"unquenchable thirst" and a fellow in the studies program. welcome to the show. very good to have you both with us. mary johnson, i have been following you a little bit in the media. it's been fascinating about some of the things you've been saying about challenges in the church on a moral level. what are your hopes, first of all, with the new pope? >> my hopes are that this new pope might take a look at the catholics who have felt marginalized recently. gay and lesbian catholics, divorced catholics, catholics who see their home, their spiritual home in the church but don't feel entirely welcome and may be made to feel more at home. especially women. women need to be known as real potential leaders in the church and given the opportunity to make their voices heard and to

change things for the better. >> let me pose the same question to mary and say are your hopes in sync with mary johnson's? >> well, here's what i think. i think it's important to realize that pope francis is going to show us what it means to be catholic. that means to move beyond the labels of conservative or liberal or progressive or traditionalist and to really incorporate the gospel of jesus christ. that's what this man is about. you couldn't watch the ceremony yesterday and think about power. i think the word was service. humility. i think that's what he's going to draw out of all of us and bring us together in that way. reaching out to the left in terms of social justice. reaching out to the right you might say in terms of the moral teaching of the church. really he person is what it meae

catholic. >> bringing in the next generation, doesn't that mean dressing the problems that the church confronted along the way whether it becomes confronting sex scandals or just more transparency in the process so people feel more connected with the church. >> well, sure. i think when i think of this pope three things come to mind. compassion which everyone has spoken about. compassion for the poor but clarity of vision and sense of being about god's agenda and than it's not his agenda. it's god's agenda and third thing is his courage. i think that's what you're talking about here. he's not afraid to speak the truth whether it's the truth about children needing a mother and a father to be raised by a mother and a father or the truth that we need to be compassionate to the poor and make sure our monetary policies are really about providing justice for all.

he's not afraid to speak the truth and i think it's up to the rest of the challenge for the rest of us to open our ears and eyes and to hear perhaps beyond the labels and to just look for that essence of what the church is about. what it means to be catholic. >> you know, mike, i love what chris matthews said earlier this morning that you have a pope that's kind of like a pennsylvania politician. culturally conservative but socially more progressive. more in tuned with the needs of the poor. i think for younger people in the church, i actually think that's a message that will resonate. >> look how his papacy began. he began with a moment of silent prayer. that is significant when you think about it. he didn't step out on the balcony. he asked for a moment of silent prayer. he chose the name francis.

patron saint francis of assisi. received a vision from jesus and jesus said we build my church. it has fallen into ruin. i think the pope thinks about this and to mary johnson's point, i would hope that he would be more inclusive or reach out to more people to bring catholics back into the church. >> mary johnson, i want to touch on a point that chris matthews brought up earlier. how realistic do you think the vow of celibacy is in the catholic church and what have you found? >> my experience is that people living the vow of celibacy are often very only. my experience is that an intimate relationship with another person where you're known, where you're loved for yourself is something which helps you to serve others. when i was a nun for 20 years, one of the reasons i wrote my memoir was that i wanted to

start an open discussion about what it feels like to live with a vow of celibacy trying your best but realizing that we all have human needs. human desires that one of the best things we can do for each other is to love each other well and that means relating on a very, very personal level. i think that in the eastern church now, this is the eastern right of the catholic church. these are catholics who acknowledge the pope as their spiritual leader. they've always had a tradition of married clergy. one of the sisters who took vows with me was the daughter of a croatian priest who was legitimately married in the church. there's no theological reason why catholic priests shouldn't be married. st. peter was married. i think that the vow of celibacy is something which studies have shown only 50% of priests are observing at any given moment. we set ourselves up for failure and setting ourselves up for an

ideal that's too hard to reach. >> mary hasson, would you agree? >> i would challenge that. the gospel standard is a high bar. we are challenged to live and we're given the grace to respond to the call that god has on each of our lives. so for those who are called to the priesthood, there's a call to that celibacy. but there are certain things that are rules of discipline and certain things that are unchangeable truth. so whereas the church will not be ordain women, john paul ii made that clear, there can be and indeed there are some married priests, and they serve the church well. i think again the real sense here is to keep our eye on service and that is what pope francis is about. when he stood there in front of that crowd and asked them to pray, that is that attitude of humility and service that says it's not about my agenda, it's

about god's agenda. what is god's plan here? i thought it was interesting yesterday's gospel was the gospel of john and it ended with jesus saying i have come not to do my will but the will of him who sent me. i think that's what the call is for each one of us. it's what is god asking of us? >> mary hasson and mary johnson, thank you both. coming up next, fast to do tries to take a healthier turn. is it too little and too late and what are they really doing? the evolution of the egg mcmuffin. >> did you hear about this? this is a disgrace. they are taking the yoke out of the egg mcmuffin. ♪

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cnbc. this morning it looks like we could go ten days in a row. got weekly jobless claims numbers pushing averages higher in the premarket. you have to go to 4:00 so see what actually happens. the s&p 500 is now within a whisper of hitting an all-time high. good bull run going on the averages. we'll see if it continues. taco bell is the big story. >> great. we love that. >> product innovation can add jobs. these locos tacos are so popular they sell a million a day. added 15,000 jobs last year. taco bell thinks. and today you can get the official cool ranch locos taco. >> you have to love this. mcdonald's going healthy.

>> introducing a new healthier option to the breakfast menu. it's the egg white delight mcmuffin. it will be made with a whole grain muffin, canadian bacon and white cheddar cheese clocking in at 260 calories opposed to the regular egg mcmuffin which has 300. there's not much of a difference there. >> i always ask them to get rid of the ham as another way to shave off another 10 or 15 calories. >> here's the deal. i'm sorry. i know they are trying to get -- >> was there a question there? >> i'm talking to michelle. i know there's an effort to get healthier options into mcdonald's. how do we not look at this as fast food chains preparing for litigation that's sure to come? >> i don't think so. if you don't think it's healthy, you don't have to eat there. >> exactly. >> the average consumer at a fast food restaurant is a guy in his 20s eating there three or

four times a month. no loyalty to burger king or mcdonald's and they have carrots ready to go for the happy meals but half the time parents don't ask for them. it's individual choices. don't like it. don't go there. >> i love that attitude. >> some people live in food deserts and have to drive 20 minutes to get healthy food and can't afford that. >> when's the last time you ate at mcdonald's? >> i ate there with my kids at the end of last year. >> michelle, this isn't fair. we have you in a box. you come in and we'll talk about it. you clearly have a different point of view. we should discuss. it's not about individual choice. i'll give you the last word next time. thanks, michelle. living with moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis

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>> elected the 266th pope today. pope francis the i. here are other names he could have selected. kim jong pope. nope. pope w. bush. number four, pope john paul van dam. number three, pope mike the situation sorrentino. sponge pope big hat and the number one rejected pope name francis ford poppola.

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