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get happy. get geico. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more. olay ultra moisture body wash can with more moisturizers than seven bottles of the leading body wash. with ultra moisture your body wash is anything but basic. soft, smooth skin with olay. good morning from new york i'm chris hayes. the eurozone and cyprus overnight agreed to a $13 billion bailout deal one that would put much of the cost on the bank depositors. pope francis had his first meeting with the media. right now i'm joined by anthony

butler, roland frameeny and jacqueline and my friend father bill daly. great to have you here on this saturday morning. on wednesday cardinal jorge mario bergoglio of argentina was elected through a secret ballot to be the 266th pontiff of the roman catholic church. cardinal jorge mario bergoglio now pope francis is 76 years old, the first jesuit pope and the first pope from latin america a region of the world that along with africa has represent ad major source of growth for the catholic church. in 1910, 65% of all catholics resided in europe, 24% in latin america and caribbean. now the church looks radically different. in 2010, 24 catholics resided in

europe. the elevation of jorge mario bergoglio to the papacy represents an acknowledgement of the cardinals of the demographic power centers but other elements make it unclear what his election portends. he's a fierce advocate of the poor. his role as head of the jesuit order during the height of argentina's vicious, brutal wars which is estimated to kill up to 30,000 people spurred charges of silence and complicity. the catholic church's role in the developing world where it holds immense political power. how it holds that power will become part of francis' legacy. the question of reform clearing out the bureaucratic and moral rot that has dome define the vatican in many corners of the world. still unclear just how much will or power pope francis has to

take on that difficult task. so my first question, the place i want to start is, when someone runs for president of the united states, i have a good sense of like what that election is going to be about, there's a set of things that they will talk about and there's a set of things they won't talk about and then some surprising things like gaffes or some personal, you know, personal little sins or transgressions that might make their way in. when you come before the cardinal conclave you say brothers in christ, this is why you should elect me pope. what does that election turn on? i literally have no idea. >> well, you know in this case i don't know. there's so much this election could have turned on. one is you have a church that's in desperate need of reform. there were reports there was a $30 million apartment building that was bought that a gay bathhouse was part it. you need somebody to be good

administrator but put a different face on the church. you need somebody who can be compassionate. you need somebody who is not so much as a theologian. then you get up and say everything before the conclave and give your five minute spiel you have. >> first you have a numerical problem. in the presidential election you end up with two people. one on one side, one on the other. in a conclave you end up with 157 candidates because every single one of them is popular to the extent that he is prince of the church. they don't have to elect somebody from the cardinals as far as i know. they can decide to co-opt

somebody from outside if they want to. >> that's worth a dollar bet. on the off chance. >> in the first voting which was tuesday, tuesday night they actually had two or three votes for pope benedict xvi which was a tribute for him from one or two cardinals and then eventually it boils down -- it's a process elimination, really. the other thing about it is, of course, you don't campaign. >> right. >> whereas, you know, you campaign to death in an american election until everybody is absolutely exhausted. and it takes, you know, what a year and a half. this thing takes four days and you don't campaign. there's a saying in rome that says that if you enter the conclave a pope you come out a cardinal. >> right. meaning it is incredibly, you do

not cultivate -- if you're seen as having campaigning for wanting the job that's a strike against you. >> the rules also matter. going into the last conclave pope john paul ii changed the rules. a group favoring a candidate who couldn't get two-thirds of the majority would win. benedict changed the rule back. you couldn't count if you got a guy that has 5% plus one. you had to settle on someone with twhoirds. >> you had to wait until you got to that two-thirds threshold. >> you don't make any speeches or anything of that nature. the whole thing literally is back room stuff. and you find you're being championed by somebody. >> also sistine chapel praying room stuff. we like to believe there's some room for the holy spirit. my mother never typed. she didn't go college. but we got her a computer and now she sends cute emails to us.

they are entitled mom because she doesn't know we can see. the mom e-mail she sent to my none practicing sister. we have a new pope he's an advocate for the poor. what we hope the pope was praying for introducing christ to the world. i hope he'll be a good administrator. i'm optimistic cautiously that the way he's tried to introduce christ to the world through the papacy, choosing francis i'm optimistic where he thinks the church needs to be in introducing the world to christ in his time. >> most catholics would agree. the pew center for public policy and region put out a poll this week right before the election of francis, when it asked american catholics what is the most pressing problem that the next pope needs to address and

34% said sex abuse crisis. this is beyond -- there are definitely administrative problems and then you have what is perceived by many catholics in the u.s. and abroad as a portland crisis. another 16% of the people polled of the catholics polled in that study also said, mentioned if you put them all together issues of modernization, abortion, contraception, lgbt rights, these are issues. you're looking at not just a geographic diversity which you mentioned at the opening of the program, but a diversity amongst catholics that you have people who are routinely usually always using contraception. you have gay and lesbian and bi-catholics who want to be embraced by their church. >> i agree. obviously that's where my politics come from. but it just seems to me that those politics are just never going to enter a papal conclave. it's a conclave happening within the confines of orthodoxy which is why -- just definitionally --

>> they are in there, for example. >> there is no one there who believes in legalized abortion, presumably maybe someone. my point being that i think part of the difficulty of interpreting the conclave and interpreting the choice is precisely that the lens through which it is retracted to us are the places in which these kind of political commitments and religious orthodoxy bump up each other. the issues that affect catholics in their public life and private life. but that has zero to do with the decision make in the conclave. someone is not getting up that's a pro marriage equality papal candidate. this is happening twin bound rice of orthodoxy. >> if you're talking about reproductive health and pope francis as a champion for the poor this is an area when you don't have access to contraception or abortion because your government has

prohibited one or the other or there's no access to it, this is an issue that most affects poor women and poor families. if you cannot control your fertility, interrupt your pregnancy and abort when you're in a crisis pregnancy situation the people that suffer the most is the poor. if this is a man that embraces the need of the poor needs to understand reproductive poor is part of that. >> this is the issue. he's not thinking about those kind of issues. he doesn't want to do this in the marxist kind of way. i want all these things. this is the church. it's 2013. >> this is the hierarchy. people like me are the church. >> we are. the question is people think are they going to do this stuff? i'm where your. i'm very clear where i am. but they are not thinking about this stuff. they don't care about it. when he said at the press release and said, you know, women are there to serve.

that's how women are involved. women are there to serve oh, my god like this is the worst line on earth and i got on twitter and talked about it. this is the moment. this is where they can't hear everyone else. they can't hear the outside world. it's about theology and/or though docksy but the world that they need to be in, they have not addressed yet. >> i want to talk about, to go back for a second to this question of reform in the vatican, the curia which is an institution and universe that's fascinating. that's why dan brown sells a lot of novels. i want to talk about that and then move out also to what this will look like in the rest world after we take this break. [ female announcer ] it balances you... it fills you with energy... and it gives you what you are looking for to live a more natural life. in a convenient two bar pack. this is nature valley. nature at its most delicious.

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so the word reform has been

floating around a lot of the coverage and i think there's a lot of ways to think about reform. there's reform in the context on these doctrinal questions or what the church does on its policy on birth control in the developing world or in the developed world, right. but then reform very specific, reform of the vatican, the curia, the institutional heart of the church. i'm having a very difficult time like actually understanding what that word means, what it forces. here's the "new york times" saying headline snub over reformers choice seen before pope's anointing. while the workings of the conclave are secret, cardinal jorge mario bergoglio won the papacy according to comments from cardinals, vatican experts and leaks to the italian newspapers in part because they snubbed cardinal scola. he was tasked by ratzinger to clean up the bank and ran head

long into another cardinal that administers the curia. >> this whole business about the split within the italian -- it was the largest voting group the italians. my informants say the exact opposite which is the italians got together in the end and realized that in order to, as it were, take the papacy back -- >> after a long reign -- >> of two for end eeigners. it extends to the italian politics in order to be able to come up with a candidate who was scola. they were so sure they actually had scola that i think it was published that when the white smoke came up, the italian conference of bishops put out a

press release -- >> is this true? >> it's true. >> which said we thank god for the choice of cardinal scola. the curtains open up and out comes jorge mario bergoglio. there was a big oops factor. they put out exactly the same press release having changed -- that somewhere along the line they thought they had it. and in order to have had it, they would have had to actually form some kind of an alliance because the big thing was not so much that the vatican, that they should still control -- i mean we're talking now in sort of basic political terms which i mean with respect to you and the holy ghost, you know, when it comes down to it there is a fundamental issue of power here.

and this was where the fundamental issue of power was played out which was the italians going to keep the vatican or are they not. >> it's proof that god has a sense of humor that we're to figure out the human side of the church by disentangling italian politics. >> absolutely. >> but you see the point is that there's a great deal of money involved in all of this. there's also a great deal of control. for example, and i don't want to go on and on. >> please. this is why you are here. i find the vatican fascinating. when they talk about reform there were these scandal, the pope's private butler leaked letters that seemed to be way of blowing whistle an things people were doing. >> when pope benedict left the holy office, i can still never call it whatever it's called these days, he left in charge of

the scandal of the whole sex scandal. >> exactly. >> a very bright young man who was actually, you know, basically his man there. what happened to him last six months ago was that he ended up as the co-agitator bishop in malta. that's not a promotion. >> it's a big demotion. >> even though he was maltese and he was delighted. >> as you. >> i was born there. the point is that this was done to man who the pope had put there. >> right. the point being the power of the last pope over, actually his ability and we talked the last time about president barack obama and the senate. the president actually can't just do whatever he wants. there's institutional reasons, there's power held in the senate

and the filibuster that he just doesn't get -- that's an example of the limitations and power of the last pope. >> yes. this is the kind of thing. when he turned around and started finding things like butlers leaking messages and all that kind of thing that in my opinion where he gave up who needs this at my age. >> i want to talk about what then is the meaning and purpose of what kind of reform should there be of this institution? >> look. every pope goes into saying he's going to reform. and every pope kind of fiddles around with the ends of it. the only problem it's been around for several hundred years, and it is essentially an italian structure. >> right. i want to quote what the new pope says about poverty and the priority he's placed on that and talk about what that looks like right after this break. that sta, it yellows over time. when it comes to your smile, if you're not whitening, you're yellowing.

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so we're talking about the new pope and one of the striking things is the pope's age particularly given the fact that the pope that he's succeeding was rather advanced in age, the pope before him was rather young which was a large part why he had such a defining effect on people's perception of the church and church itself and he had many years to get to know. he was able to sort of establish this relationship. >> he was very talented at presenting. >> he was extremely gifted and charismatic. the longevity was part of it. michael brendan dougherty writing about this, basically making the case essentially kind of, this is punting by the cardinals, this is a caretaker custodial nature. besides his lack of knowledge of the ins and outs of the vatican there is almost no evidence of him taking a tough line with

anyone in his own diocese. my question is does that seem to be the case? can we expect big things from a man at this age who seems like he's lived a life that's quite far from the vatican in many ways and quite small and humble, is this someone we can expect major transformations especially on things you talked about? >> we can always hope. as catholics we pray for a miracle. there's no reason to believe he couldn't. we know that when vatican ii was called no one aspected pope john xxiii to do it. >> tell me about john xxiii. that's the counter example to whatever lower expectation there's are. >> it's a counter example. you call everyone in and say we will look at this. the church in the modern world.

that was like to me the most important piece of vatican ii. how will the church engage with the world. if you have a church that is trying to push away, how do you get the church to engage. what has happened under benedict, the liturgy has been rolled back. half the people don't know what to say during the mass. it's very confusing. >> that's a case for continuity over change. >> i hate it. but i think the thing that vatican ii it opened up this whole thing. i remember being a kid and the guitars. everybody remembers what happened with vatican ii. we could have had something different with birth control. the pill just came out. charlie kern was a great theologian who is now very ill. we need to think about birth control, we need to think about

giving women the right have birth control. this is a time when protestant women can use the pill but in the catholic church they say no that's part of moral theology, we don't want to stop procreation. the church could have turned one way and perhaps some of these other things could have gone on a little bit more progressively but they didn't. >> one of the presidents of argentina, i forget which that was in a tussle with an archbishop said he's from the middle ages. we have to expect the phone kope catholic. i watched a lot of the msnbc coverage and chris matthews explaining for teaming crowds what the new pope needed to do. the answer was become the archbishop of canterbury. that's not the program for the

future. i don't understand why many catholics who dissent on these questions want to see a pope go there. for me the question of how the pope presents christ to the world, and how christ in our time is to be understood is taught to us by his choice of the name francis, the world's popular sane, a saint of simplicity, of radical devotion of christ's love to the poor and stripping away simplicity of the gospel. for a jesuit priest to announce that there must be 150 oscar-winning speeches prepared. what do i wear? what name will i choose? he gave that some thought beforehand. so for me i think that there's a great reason to be optimistic about that simplicity that he hopes to bring to the world. no pope will satisfy everyone's desire for administrative skill or reform or liturgical

theology. >> i hope simplicity doesn't mean he can present a simple face to the world but it needs be a nuanced way whether he's dealing with the curia and worldwide affairs. everybody said he was simple. when he says france sis he meant francis xavier. you can go out and engage people wherever you are in the world. he's saying francis in simplicity. that's fine. it has to be this other move he's going to make because he's a worldwide leader. why do we care about the pope? the pope is over a country. it's a little bitty country but it's a country. he'll be dealing with a lot of worldwide leaders so we need him more than simplicity and words about poverty in order to bring the church forward however that might happen. >> the question of bringing the church forward and we talked

about this before, father, this question of when you talk about what political advice do you dispense to the church or where should the church go. i mean there's a question, i think sometimes people can conflate these two issues. where are your moral commitment, where are your points of dissent with official doctrine. what should the church do to become relevant or to grow? that's entirely distinct questions. i think sometimes they get conflated. if the church gets more liberal on these issues of reproductive choice that's the church's renewal but the religions that are growing around the world are the most conservative, the most fundamentalist and the most like strict. catholics point this out all the time. look at main tine protestism. they have no prohibition on

abortion control. protestantism isn't thriving or growing faith in america. >> chris, it's not about being relevant or popular as far as i'm concerned it's about doing what's right. it's doing what's morally right. there's a major moral case from catholic teaching for change. going back to the birth control question and the birth control commission that was organized by pope john xxiii as part of vatican ii. ate huge question and i as a woman would never say access to birth control is not important and a right that we're entitled to. now in the age of aids and having new hiv infections every year at a time we're how many years into this, it's devastated countries all over the world particularly in africa and in the past ten years we've seen who has been most affected married women who are faithful to their husbands. this is where the current teaching of the hierarchy and condemns comes from and people think when we're talking about

birth control in the catholic church being prohibitive the main concern is the pill. yes that's a big concern but we're talking about people protecting themselves from contracting hiv. >> father stick around. i want to have you respond to that and talk about new pope right after this. alright, bring the model in on the set! work the camera... work it! those hands. oooh la la! what's your secret? dawn? [ female announcer ] dawn hand renewal with olay beauty improves the look and feel of hands in 5 uses. love it, or get double your money back.

father bill, you mentioned christina, the argentina president in response to a battle over marriage equality in argentina in which the cardinal in a letter days before the bill legalized it said let's not be nai seven it's an attempt to destroy god's plan.

if the question here isn't this question of the imbedding of the modern world or these kind of doctrinal questions, if it's about what the face the church presents to the world, what do you want to see happen with this papacy? >> part of the face that the church presents to the world, though, does come on these questions and it seems to me not all of us are on dissent on those. even the vast majority of practicing catholics we've seen the polls in the united states who might be using artificial birth control. chris matthews once said on this network in his decades of going to the church he has never heard from the pulpit about the church's teaching about artificial birth control. reality is the church does offer something different on birth control which is something hat the world thinks about human sexuality and reprodiscussion and marriage. the church has been too weak to

proclaim. the reality is the media focus on the church on pelvic issues. the lived experience of the church i think is more reflected in what chris experiences. it's not what people hear in parishes. priest don't like to talk about it. my experience of talking about it with people they are grateful for the challenge. they don't walk away and say you are correct. they are willing to say that the modern world as we've been putting it doesn't have a monopoly in thinking intelligently and profoundly about human sexuality and gender relation the whole bag of them. what i would like to see we get away from why can't the vatican bank operate credit card machines. do we need the pope's butlers these intrigues that's a distraction from the church presenting with any credibility and clarity and consistency a church people can be proud of.

people can live with these doctrinal questions but things that are not controversial, that when a bishop behaves irresponsibly there will be some consequence of that. that's not at that right or left issue, so my hope is that people will be able to say in the vatican there's a pope that continues what been dict's program was bringing greater integrity and clarity to that process. we talked a bit during the break how that struggle in the vatican is going on. >> i live in philadelphia. we're the first city in the country that actually convicted a diocesian administrator for moving around priests. this is one of those interesting cases where we can think about what the church tells you what to do visa a vis what the law

says. what we've got, mahony is over there reporting. they paid out $10 million. >> cardinal mahony from los angeles who oversaw a diocese in which there were several priests who serially -- >> yeah. i lived in l.a. for a long time so i can tell you that this broke up my parish that was there in l.a. so when you have this, you have boston. i can't wait if he really does set down cardinal law one thing this pope has done well. >> on these issues of the papacy, outside of the doctrinal questions, do i think that kind of accountability and what that means for a renaissance of the church or to reconnect catholics here. we'll talk about the church in latin america. as if knitting and tangled history. stick around.

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the church's history in latin america is tangled and complicated for a variety reasons. the church came to latin america, it was part of the official hierarchy that:ized and enslaefd the people of latin america and woven as fabric of life in latin america. and through the last decades of revolution in south america and coups and democratic moments and moments against austerity and the imf the church played this fascinating role at all levels of latin america. to that end i want to bring in blase bonpane.

the headline out of the conclave is the first latin american pope. we have a church that had this fascinating complicated role to the political institutions and social moments there at once in many ways a kind of reactionary sidearm of those in power and also at the same time often an ideology and an organizing principle and institution for people pushing against those in power. >> yes. we were assigned to guatemala in the wake of the vatican council and we were hearing things from the vatican we never heard before. enter into the hopes, desires, anxieties of people, wherever it takes you, and that led us to de-emphasize the sacramental ministry, to focus on labor, to focus on poverty, to focus on the immediate needs of the people because what became ultimately liberation theology with an immediate response to

imperial theology that you were talking about that has been with us since 325 a.d. and the council of nicea where there became one empire, one church and god help anyone that differs with either one. and that led to crusades, inquisitions, conqistadors and the idea was let's skip the council of nicea and go back to the days of jesus where he told us to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, visit those in prison, clothe the naked. so we feel that there was a great error in this imperial theology and it's still there. and words like curia come directly from the roman empire. it's a roman imperial word for governance. so this is an opposition dogma. it's very, very dangerous.

dogma divides. dogma makes people argue. dogma is nationalistic. we've had arguments on dogma that led to the separation of the greek church and the roman church over things that were absolutely ridiculous. the holy spirit proceed from the father and the son. the greek saying no it proceeds only from the father. that argument led to the separation of the two churches in 1054 and they are still separate over a dogmatic issue. >> it's a powerful force in latin america. and does provide this challenge. it begins to create tremendous conflict and tensions within the church, right, because there is -- it is viewed with some skepticism by the church hierarchy. >> exactly. think about it in two ways. i was thinking about the great

jesuit general who said we have move to with the people. and gutierrez who continues to outline this liberation theology. in the '70s and '80s you have people saying we'll be out here with the poor. we'll get involved with the government. ways in which different places in latin america, how the catholic church dealt with this is very different in other places. >> i wasn't in argentina where the accusations have come up against pope francis. but i was in guatemala where we had cardinal viego. as soon as some of us were deannounced by the military we were denounced by the cardinal. in fact when the military came and shot up our center in guatemala city the cardinal said they are communists and anti-christs. >> you were a priest. >> yes. >> you had this division. you have kind of right-wing

dictatorship throughout latin america aligned with the church hierarchy at the same time that nuns and priests and in sometimes even bishops are aligning themselves with leftists. >> so many were killed in guatemala. he turned around from being a conservative to identifying with poor. the poor converted. they just fought. a dear friend of mine became ready to speak up to the nation and for that he was murdered in this month of 1980. >> i was just thinking, what happened of course with the liberation theology as i understand it is it was identified rightly or wrongly with all the marxist movements.

>> jesus came before marx. marx is 19th-century. marx may have imitated jesus. but gentlemen just did not imitate marx. >> but the thing is, they are scared of marxism. >> the reason you have the military was partly because of what they perceived as a threat. >> absolutely. >> there's a consciousness which they shared with the church hierarchy. >> this is what the cia did. they condemned liberation theology when father roy discovered the cia torture manuals right in them is talking to the contras in nicaragua go after them. they are a threat. >> cardinal jorge mario bergoglio issued on behalf of

the church for its complicity. let's focus on that moment in history and we'll talk more about the church's role right after this. they don't? [ male announcer ] nope, but alka seltzer plus severe sinus does it treats your worst sinus symptoms, plus that annoying cough. [ breathes deeply ] ♪ oh, what a relief it is! [ angry gibberish ]

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i got some good advice get to mass after the homily. >> risk hearing things -- >> you don't like. >> that might undermine your faith. >> you wanted to jump in with something? >> this discussion we were having before break is another example of where the hierarchy lets politics and issues that are not -- let's politics get in the way of being a moral authority for people. i mean you have these situations in latin america in the '70s and '80s where the people, the body of the church was waiting for better leadership from its hierarchy and, again, going back to what's happening now with hiv and the strict restriction on condemns, again these are people

who would like to have one of the most effective tools to protect themselves and their partners from thif and the hierarchy refuses to allow it. it's unconscionable what's considered a moral authority in the world would not take the proper moral position. >> the sense of the people is entirely for birth control, entirely for reverence for people who are gay or of no religion or agnostic, entirely against condemning things like same sex marriage. i want to say something about silence. >> this is the points that i think, when we get to jorge mario bergoglio and we talk about what his legacy is in buenos aires. i want to set the table factually. there have been very intense charges about outright collaboration with the military that ruled that country from 1976 to 1983.

those have been denied and also i think persuasively a nobel prize winner and human rights activist has dome the defense of jorge mario bergoglio who said there were people in the church who were outright collaborationists, jorge mario bergoglio was not. but he was not outspoken defiance. >> silence is complicity. silence of the church is notorious. whether we look at pope um church xxii. the people were saying -- jchlt spe -- [ speaking foreign language ] >> one of the thing that

happened in argentina is that the government went after leftist dissidents by murdering them, torturing them and in a perverse twist when the death of those dissidents left orphan children they would take those children and give them to friend. regime. people were raised by people they thought were their mother and father who were cronies of the regime who murdered their mother and father. >> it was brought out and made an issue of it. >> when we come back i'll show you a snippet of it and then read the apology that cardinal jorge mario bergoglio offered. try running four. fortunately we've got ink. it gives us 5x the rewards on our internet, phone charges and cable, plus at office supply stores.

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we are talking about the church in latin america and specifically the first latin american pope. former cardinal from buenos aires. and his role as a cardinal in buenos aires during this horrible period in argentina history where there was murder and torture of dissidents. >> he was provincial of the jesuit order. prior to becoming archbishop. >> thank you very much. >> he had tremendous power. >> provincial is a person who over sees that regional area of the jesuit order. >> yes. >> jesuits have famously been aligned with many of the social justice moments in latin america. >> they've the wonderful jesuits that i knew in el salvador that got killed and i'll never forget

them and they were dedicated to an option for the poor. we live with an option for the rich. hugo chavez gave an option for poor because he was influenced by liberation theology. >> to give a taste at what we talk about the dirty words in argentina. she was taken and raised by an army colonel and his wife during the dirty wars. >> translator: i was born on january 31st and when i was 13 days old an army commander raided the house where we lived. they tell me colonel found me in a cradle under the kitchen table and took me to a police station. there were more babies there from other raids too. four months later a woman and a man came to choose me because the babies chose me and

registered me as their natural daughter. >> in 2012 cardinal jorge mario bergoglio issued a statement about the church's failure during this period of time. we know there's many deep wounds after the kidnapping seizing or disappearance of a loved one. we share everyone's pain and ask for the forgiveness of everyone we failed or didn't support as we should have. >> this was an imitation of what happened in chile and it was supported by our country. it was supported by henry kissinger, especially until such time as jimmy carter came along and took an interest in trying to stop the dirty war and the argentina invited him to thank him for helping them to end this horror. >> to your mind as a scholar of the church and a catholic, is there enough -- is there a clear conscience about the pope himself in this period of time?

derise -- is there some moral threshold that he crossed? >> i think this is definitely on his part a sin of mission rather than comission. his whole history when and he was provincial, he treated the jesuits. other jesuits were saying this guy is strict and have two jesuits turn up with these things -- >> explain that story. >> this is a story that's been the one where we have two jesuits who have been work with the poor, in the slums he told them not to do it. they continued to do it anyway. he lifts his hands this is how it's been described and they turn up beaten up and taken in by the regime. >> there's allegations that the most serious allegations which have been denied he essentially turned them over. he says himself basically he warned them for their own safety they needed to stop the work they were doing. >> he did what the cardinal did in quote. he simply denounced them in such

a way that the military get the message not intending to have them killed but they were picked up by death squads. he made them in disrepute as priests and that's a message that military could take them over. >> what's interesting this week the story has come out, he's in germany. i don't want to talk about this any more. i think much like benedict being in the hitler youth this will be the thing that hangs over him a little bit. >> the question is is this a cloud over his papacy? you mentioned about pope piu sms pius xxii. the point of him being silent about the jewish population in europe all the comments came out later and pope pius xxii was already dead. it was a matter of his reputation and, indeed, not his

actual papacy. in this particular case this is happening in real-time. in other words, you know, is this going to be the problem that the elephant in the vatican that won't go away. >> we've seen the same thing in the pedophilia scandal, silence. >> silence as opposed to moral courage and moral witness. basically what you see from an institution that you would desire the kind of courage and fortitude and risk taking that would come with devotional fervor, you see instead cowarding, complicity, calculation of interest, institutional navigation. >> conformity -- what did our bishops said about guantanamo, the drones, perpetual war. silence. >> this is the problem. it's a theological issue. you can't say i'm against the health care plan and not speak

out against the horrors that's happening. this is where people don't want to list. the people in argentina have shown a very mixed reaction to this pope. >> it now goes beyond argentina in the sense you now have him representing -- what's going to happen any time he shows up anywhere. will he be facing, you know, crowds saying -- >> the vatican answered very rapidly today. >> they did. clearly this is something -- because look when you follow twitter after the conclave no one knows who this guy is. who are we kidding. there's this new person. what now about him? first thing is are simple, humble takes the bus. second thing was possibly complicit in the atrocities of the dirty wars. >> it's possible to be a conservative populist. >> the other big issue that faces the church is the fact that actually church membership is declining quite rapidly across latin america and while

evangelical denominations are rising. in brazil from 1940 on the number of catholics has decreased by over 90%. in 1940 to just over 60% in 2010. number of vaevangelicals rose. what you see in brazil is kind of a quasi-evangelical moments. big singing numbers and guitars and showmanship that has come to typify mega churches here in the united states. >> you go from doctrinal churches to unity of fruit of the spirit which represents islam, judaism. peace, joy, love, goodness, endurance, courage. these things make a spiritual

person by their fruits you should know them. we can be doctrinally perfect and be a devil. what good is it to focus on -- >> i'm not sure -- again i'm skeptical of an argument that there's something dock in the trialal to the account of this switch from catholicism to a sociological southwest. >> you have pentecostals who say you don't have to poor. we'll get you a job. we'll mobilize you. it comes with a spiritual message. they have been able to bust apart what's happening in the catholic church and latin america. these evangelicals are moving up and they show sympathy for their people. they are not telling their people they can't use birth control. all these things have made the

catholic church very vulnerable in latin america. >> don't think we should under estimate the impact of the continued rigidity and restrictions on contraception and the shame around applied to whom have abortions. very famously in brazil in 2009 there was a 9-year-old girl who was raped repeatedly by her stepfather, became pregnant with twins and her mother asked for there to be an abortion. in brazil there are only two circumstance in which you can have an abortion legally and the doctors found that this put her life at risk because she was 9 years old. the hierarchy there insisted they could have had a cesarean. they needed to save the lives of her two unborn children. but the worst part in some ways i think for catholics is that the church, the hierarchy there ex-communicated the little girl's mother and the doctor who performed the surgery but didn't

ex-communicate the father to raped her repeatedly. >> that's the message. >> the story you just told me -- >> and what people need to do in good conscience i think i would be hard pressed to find a person who would say except in the brazilian catholic hierarchy who would say having an abortion for a 9-year-old girl is -- >> women have been oppressed and this abortion thing is one of the major oppressions. in brazil, in past decades one could shoot his wife. you could kill your wife. >> kind of like in texas, unfortunately. >> don't know. >> anthony butler from the university of pennsylvania, jacqueline, thanks for joining

us. how new york mayor mike bloomberg brought the naacp and big soda together. that's next. [ male announcer ] how do you make america's favorite recipes? just begin with america's favorite soups. bring out chicken broccoli alfredo. or best-ever meatloaf. go to campbellskitchen.com for recipes, plus a valuable coupon. campbell's. it's amazing what soup can do. i honestly loved smoking, and i honestly didn't think i would ever quit. [ male announcer ] along with support, chantix (varenicline) is proven to help people quit smoking. it reduces the urge to smoke. it put me at ease that you could smoke on the first week. [ male announcer ] some people had changes in behavior, thinking or mood, hostility, agitation, depressed mood and suicidal thoughts or actions while taking or after stopping chantix. if you notice any of these stop taking chantix and call your doctor right away. tell your doctor about any history of depression or other mental health problems, which could get worse while taking chantix. don't take chantix if you've had a serious allergic

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state judge delivered a major blow to new york city michael bloomberg's aggressive public health agenda this week overturning his ban on sales of sugary drinks over 16 ounce portions one day before it was set to take effect. in a press conference on monday mayor bloomberg brushed off the ruling. >> being the first to do something is never easy. when we began this process we knew we would face lawsuits. any time you adopt a groundbreaking policy, special interest will sue.

that's america. >> the ban isn't just opposed by special interests in this case the beverage industry is also opposed by a majority of new york city voters notably black voters who opposed the ban by 60% compared to 49% of white voters and 47% of hispanic voters. it's also posd by the naacp who filed a brief in support of the beverage industry's successful effort stop the ban. the coalition hat rose scrambled some of our normal categories and spot lights the extremely fraught politics of class and race in public health debates as organizations representing people of color have joined forces with the soda industry against progressive public health reformers. an ad produced by the beverage industry sponsored group new yorkers for beverage choices business owners worried about the impact the ban would have on their communities. >> i don't think this ban is helping to create any jobs. >> less people have less money coming in as far as payroll. >> so the kid you could have

hired just starting up you can't no longer hire him. >> these businesses provide a lifeline to a segment of our community that's desperate for employment. >> say know the beverage ban. >> joining us now is the president of naacp and president of council that specializes in food and nutrition. a latisha james. so this is a complicated tangled thing which is why i was excited to talk about it. right? there are these two elements that run through the history that is the back story to this moment, right? there is a long tradition in public health that goes back all the way to the 19th-century,

which is about things like sanitation or things like changing the habits of people, which have been remarkably successful in making people healthier and live longer and improving people's lives but have been shot through from the very beginning with all kinds of paternalistic racially loaded condescension. cleaning up the ghettos was getting the poor folks to stop acting the way they were acting. that's the subtext for public health. what's fascinating for me this is front and center in the soda ban. it's right there right on the surface. you got a billionaire whitmie mayor and he's coming in and telling you you can't get that

amount of soda because you'll be too fat and i don't want to you be too fat. there's a level people say who the heck are you? the institutional support of groups like the local naacp and i should make this distinction local chapter of the naacp that filed the brief in support of the challenge to the ban not the national version. there a "times" article talking about the alliance between some groups representing people of color and the soda industry and the implication was this is a quid prophysician quo. the soda industry has been funding these groups. i want to start off with you ben jealous as the head of the naacp. >> the tragedy here, right, everything you said would be true if this plan was well executed. but as the "new york times" said in their official editorial a few days ago it was ill

conceived from the beginning and ill executed. this mayor could have gone and we would have supported, we've been clear. we have national policy that supports the full range of tactics combat childhood obesity. the new york state conference of the naacp is very clear they would support a comprehensive ban. the mayor could have gone the new york state of ag for the power to ban it for every single vendor in the city and may have gotten it. may not. the judge went on the say there's no evidence he ever asked. this is the troubling part. this ban wouldn't have been a ban at all. it would have stopped it from the mom and pop shops, it wouldn't have stoiptd atpped it

7/eleven pop >> it was a huge loophole. >> oh, by the way 7/eleven says they are planning on opening 100 new stores in the city in the next five years and tissue here really san issue of trust. we talk to our folks. look we supported the mayor when he said take the soda out of schools. then he put in snapple. 12 ounces soft da has 39 grams of sugar, snapple has 40 in 11 1/2 ounces. we supported the mayor when he said build more parks then he cut p.e. and they just want policies that make sense from the get go. >> what is your reaction to the opposition to the soda ban? >> there's a key part in moving forth any legislation which is to bring people together to have conversations. parents, communities, community organizations, the civil rights organizations, kind of all need to be at the table to make sure that there's a united front on

these things that moms rising, there may or may not be issues with this particularly legislation. that's not our expertise but we support soda dance and health policies that help childhood obesity. something does need to be put in place. it's unfortunate there were issues with this legislation but we agree with the naacp will take its place. >> before we're all agreeing here too much -- >> it's love fest. >> look the political economy is clear. let's not fool ourselves. the initiative in new york was one initiative. it's silly to ban superize drinks and still have big gulp. they tried to impose a soda tax in california. that was defeated. there was discussion of a soda tax in the affordable care act and beverage industry went

bananas. in vermont they are trying it. in hawaii. in each place it's been beaten back often with the power of money from big soda which doesn't want to see this and grass root support often from groups that represent people of color. this is not unique to new york. >> let me just say this. we talk about interesting coalitions. i'm standing in opposition to the soda ban with a conservative liber libertyian. the mayor exceeded his authority and trespassed on the jurisdiction on the new york city council and clearly he did not consult with the new york state council or new york state legislature and clearly this entity, this agency, this administrative agency never consulted with new york city council. now, for me the issue is really about physical education. for me this issue really is

about what the first lady is doing the let's move campaign which i'm a part of. for me this issue is about public parks and playgrounds in communities of color and inner-city communities all throughout the city of new york which have not been renovated for years. . it talk about that. there's a little bit of a carrot and stick on this side of the equation and things you can do. there's the stick which is limiting the amount of sugar that people have. what we've seen i think is the balance of policy moving in the carrot direction particularly the let's move campaign. i think partly my thesis because the stick is really hard because the big soda and sugar industry have a bigger stick. more on that after this. >> and i agree. i have low testosterone. there, i said it.

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all your important legal matters in just minutes. protect your family... and launch your dreams. at legalzoom.com we put the law on your side. . remember that commercial for sunny delight when all the kids run in from outside playing.

they run to the fridge. i got purple stuff in a got sunny delight. yeah. watch the black kid in the back. i want that purple stuff he's thinking. that's drink. they want -- they want drink. they want all them vitamins. sugar water purple. that's the ingredients, sugar, water. and of course purple. >> making very explicit some of the racial subtext of the conversation. >> what's wrong with grape juice. >> that happens around the soda bin. respond to what councilwoman james was just saying in terms of the issue being more exercise, the issue being sort of some of these broader issues and not specifically this soda

thing. >> sure. i think that the so at that, you know, we've seen studies that soda is really one of the leading causes of the obesity epidemic. there's numerous studies. public health people agree on this. the thing with physical activity while it's incredibly important, and it keeps kids fit, it helps them perform better in school, it's something we encourage in everyone, that's not going to make an impact on the obesity epidemic. there's studies that show physical activity levels really haven't changed all that much in the last three decades. while i totally agree with the councilwoman that we need to get physical activity, you know, in schools more frequently, it's not going to make a dent and we need to change the caloric intake. >> not all calories are equal and sugar and corn syrup and the

cellular sub straits lead to obe obesity. >> we would support the idea of a ban but you have to do it well. and i would really take issue with the message that physical education is not going change things. i mean we all remember being kids in school and having p. e. that's not the case for a lot of kids here in this city in harlem. it's not the case in baltimore. they took p.e. out of schools across the country. it's a big deal. we need have a real kitchen. they pulled kitchens out of these schools. kids have a deep freeze and microwave and processed foods. >> this is not an either or thing. we can back off the soda. there was a 40 state study that showed in states where they ban sodas and even junk food in schools there was an impact. in california just after a couple of years kids took in 158

less calories per day. that's huge. i don't think we should get into it's an either or thing. we need to figure out a way, the right way, i agree 100% to limit the sugar, sweetened beverages, especially in schools but across the board because we know that's the culprit. >> we need a common sense and reasonable approach to cushing obesity. this notion that obesity has not leveled off is not true. in the court decision, both sides, both the respondents as well as the plaintiffs acknowledge as an issue of fact that obesity levels in the city of new york have leveled off. two, they both acknowledge that the consumption of sugary drinks has been reduced. and so that was stated -- >> prior to the ban. >> prior to the ban. that was stated in court. we have to acknowledge and recognize nice obesity levels have leveled off and the consumption of sugary drinks have been reduced.

so what can we do to further that trend. that's the issue. again with the stick i just don't think is the appropriate approach. >> here's the subtext. january 11th, you received $1,000 from a political action committee of coca-cola. i want to put this in context. talking about new york politicians getting money from all sorts of groups. i want to put that in context. i'm saying like people gets lots of money. but the argument that's being made here, right, is that yes when you have a variety of options on the table, if the soda industry is sinking money into candidates or groups to say, yes, let's find the diagram where we agree which are things that don't threaten our interest like more physical activity or more parks as posed to the solutions that do threaten our interests that that's going skew the political system away from the kinds of policies like direct taxation on soda. >> let me say this.

$1,000 when one has raised half a million doesn't affect my right to free speech. two, the $1,000 came months after i came out about six or seven months air fare came out in opposition to the soda ban and i came out in opposition to the soda ban one because it was arbitrary and capricious. didn't apply to 7/eleven or starbuck starbucks. you can have one store next to one store where the ban is applied to one store another. you're setting up this unfair competitive advantage for some stores and it's going to have an adverse impact on moms and pops. >> nancy i want to get your respond and play this sound of the mayor being quite outspoken. believe me, mayor i've asked you on before. i know you're a busy man. got a place in bermuda.

never want to come. i'm serious. i'm saying if i have a place in bermuda i would go there as well. i want to play the mayor's sound and nancy i want to get your thoughts right after this.

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than a feather duster. swiffer gives cleaning a whole new meaning. and now swiffer dusters refills are available with the fresh scent of gain. nancy, you want to respond? >> first i want to go back to 2010, when then governor proposed in the executive boiudt a penny per ounce. >> paterson tried to do it on state level and a more comprehensive policy and not one with loopholes that people are objecting to in this one. >> exactly. i worked very closely as that as an advocate and i can tell you the industry was relentless. i even went in and i looked at their lobbying expenditures. from january to june the american beverage association spent $13 million in lobbying efforts in opposing the penny per ounce tax.

so i think i understand, you know, what's going on in mayor bloomberg's head. he's feeling like maybe he doesn't have a good chance of guesting things done in albany. he's looking at some increasingly alarming rates of obesity. some increasingly alarming rates of economic problems related to obesity. i think he's trying to begin some arm changing. when i was kid when you went to get a soda it was 8 ounces. now you go in and ask for a small or a medium and there's nothing smaller than 16 ounces. so i think that's what was going on in his head and from a public health perspective it makes sense. >> one of the things i've heard from both of you is objections to the specifics of the policy. do you think we need to find public policy that limits people's intake of calories from sugar and sweeteners. >> yes. yes. >> i'm so happy to hear that. >> look, we need a comprehensive

strategy. but when the mayor has the power under an mou with the department of ag that doesn't take an act of the legislature or governor it takes him humble enough to go albany and say can we do this. >> you're back on the details of the policy. >> no it's not the details about the policy. this is about organize. come talk to us. let's figure out how to do this together. less go ball club to other people who have the power that we need. rather than pitting each other against each other. >> a reasonable and sensible approach. i support a universal tax. i support a tax on alcohol, on cigarettes. >> like david paterson's proposal. >> yes. >> i'm sure -- i love david paterson the former governor paterson, but i also believe that under the leadership of governor cuomo we can get something done. two, we should really analyze

physical education. we should come up with a plan. again the department of education based on an audit that was done, in a study that was done by the women's city club we've failed in meeting state standards in physical education in our schools and we need that plan. it's critically important we want to have physical education, that we have a universal tax that applies to everyone and three that we renovate our parks and playgrounds all throughout the city of new york particularly in underserved communities. >> universal tax is the headline. i'm not saying others things are not important. but on the specific thing that i agree that's the policy that's the most fair, most comprehensive that doesn't do this weird thing. >> plus education. obviously education would go a long way in addressing. >> when we come back i want to play what the mayor said in reaction to opposition particularly along this very, very freighted line of race because there's disproportion nature amounts of diabetes and

obesity in the african-american compared to the white community particularly new york city and he had strong words for the local naacp which i want to play when we get back and i want to get your reactions. [ female announcer ] made just a little sweeter... because all these whole grains aren't healthy unless you actually eat them ♪ multigrain cheerios. also available in delicious peanut butter. healthy never tasted so sweet. with google now, it automatically knows when you need to leave for the airport,

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[ announcer ] we know how important your dog is to your whole family. so help keep him strong and healthy with purina dog chow. because you're not just a family. you're a dog family. when you look at the numbers, the kids who are most obese and where a sugar ban or cup-size limitation would do the most good tends to be in poor neighborhoods, which in new york tends to be minority neighborhoods, not totally but tends to be and for the naacp and in all fairness it's the local chapter, it's not the national one, but for them to do this is just such an outright disgrace how they can look themselves in the mirror and know they are hurting therebily the life expeck tansy and the quality of life for the people that their supposed to serve. it's just such a disgrace. and the same thing's true for

the hispanic organization that sold their soul because a lot of hispanic kids are overweight as well. >> that's a clip from mayor bloomberg responding to types the soda ban. it's been nominated for the tone deaf olympics. tone deaf oscars are given out yearly. >> a few entries. >> that to me gets to the problem. there is -- look, there are two facts on table. there are disproportionate obesite rates. number of diabetes deaths per 1,000. in new york 31 per 100,000 in fwlooblgs. 15 of white. there's also strategy of marketing these kinds of sugars to in the same way that alcohol companies did the same thing and tobacco companies did the same thing. that's a fact. right there these disproportionate statistics. the fact that the politics of mayor bloomberg saying that in that way is not the most productive approach.

>> absolutely. he's kind of lightning the naacp state conference under the bus and not really pointing out the culprits, you know, the junk food is marketed to communities. they spend all this money lob jig. so, you know, now because of the way in which this policy was implemented or be inthe ended to be implemented the likely allies are at each other's throats. >> to go to ben's point about organizing is there a way through moms rising are there ways to produce actual grassroots support for a soda tax. >> it's called organizing. >> obesity levels leveling off and it's nowhere where it should be a lot of that is because of grassroots organizers, because of public education that's been going on and families. what we find when we talk to your members people in their homes are doing different things. >> and i think it's because of

policies. >> right. >> they work hand-in-hand. >> it's community organizing. dealing with food deserts in the city of new york. i join with the mayor of new york in addressing food deserts. it's policy of this administration. whenever you have a mega economic development in the city of new york where there's retail there's a cluster of fast food restaurants. we should limit fast food restaurants particularly in underserved communities and each and every economic development project that this mayor puts forth there was always retail and in every retail development there's a cluster of fast food development. >> look, our food justice, our childhood obesity program, i started about a month after i started on the job. a young man had died here in the city who was 12 years old of morbid obesity. we were outraged.

that was five years after this mayor who we supported in getting soda out of the school decided to put snapple in the schools. he has to come clean and listen to his constituents and say let's solve this together. our folks here at the naacp in new york want to help him push through a comprehensive policy. there's a way. >> the rest of us are playing checkers. >> here's the thing. the soda industry is building coalitions and are organizing. so if people want to see policies that i think are the right policies like the soda tax those folks can't decree it from god. it has to be built out of the same constituency work and grassroots communities from the ground up kind of organizing. all right. what do we know now that we didn't know last week? my answer right after this. ♪

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first a quick update on me

and up. thanks to your support and passion for the kind of programming we do here, i've been asked to host a new program here on msnbc we ceknights at 80 p.m. starting april 1st, and i really hope that you are join me there. but you should also know that up isn't going anywhere. it will continue with a new host, so please look for that announcement in the coming days. so you get the best of both worlds. and weekend programming at msnbc is only expanding and growing more ambitious with the one and only ed schultz coming to weekends. what do know now that we didn't know last week? we already knew she was unhappy for allowing so many backs complicit to settle cases out of court rather than take them to trial. >> every time there's a settlement and not a trial it means we didn't have the days and days and days of testimony

about what those financial institutions had been up to. so the question i really want to ask is how tough you are? how much leverage you really have in the settlements and tell me about the last few times you have taken the biggest financial institutions on wall street all the way to a trial. anybody? >> according to the l.a. times, since the mortgage melt jen down, they've been offering banks a no press release clause promising the fdic will make no mention of the settlements unless it has to. the government officials charged with regulating banks decided they are not too big to fail in criminal courts but in the court of public opinion.

the statement drafts drew for the research of two companies with ties to the industry. the projects environmental impact would be negligible. they are unlikely to have a substantial impact because the development will happen one way or another. thanks to inside climate news, we now know the conclusion was based on analyses by company companies in the report. we know too often the line between businesses and the regulating bodies are blurred. that does not mean that we should accept it. and discrimination based on sexual orientation is illegal in two dozen state where is the nfl teams play. he's calling on the league to investigate after a potential draft pick who attended the nfl combine revealed during team interviews he was asked about his sexual orientation and whether he liked girls. we know two other players who hoped to be drafted.

>> so two quick things, one, we can abolish the death penalty south of the mason dixon line and we can do it with o'malley, who many say can be the next president. this was not the case 20 years ago, we both know that. we can come to agreement on tough issues. but we can talk to uch other and figure out how to solve this from the bottom up. >> i learned a republican can reverse himself on same-sex marriage. senator rob portman announced he reveersed his feelings after finding out his son was gay. i have a tremendous amount of respect for him for doing that. >> sort of a fascinating moment, the power of personal empathy. the power of having someone in your life and also the

limitations. it would be nice to find more republican senators finding their child is poor or on medicaid. >> chris, i learn two things. one, i want to con grandchild late and salute senator gillibrand and two, thank the working family's party and women allies for passing a paid sick leave bill and in new york city, under the leadership of the working family's parties as i become the next mayor. >> the mayoral candidate refused to bring to vote for over 1,000 days for paid sick leave. she wants to leave the city, five paid sick days. i think they deserve it. i think it's at outrage. >> the anniversary of the new town shootings and nra is scared of moms and staffers throughout. mothers, moms rising, mother demand a plan.

they called the fairfax county police on us. >> on the moms. >> the nra scared of moms. who knew? >> my thanks to ben gellous of the naacp. # thank you for joining us today. tomorrow we'll have kyrste kyrsten sinema. plus, the iraq that we made. i'm really looking forward to the discussion. coming up next, it's the one and only melissa harris perry. but today joy reid is in for melissa. she will get into the incredible sexual assault case in steubenville, ohio. that is joy reid sitting in for melissa harris-perry. we'll see you right here tomorrow. thank you as always for getting up. [ male announcer ] how do you make america's favorite recipes?

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