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all your important legal matters in just minutes. protect your family... and launch your dreams. at legalzoom.com we put the law on your side. thank you all very much for a terrific conversation this thank youu for joining us. stay with nbc news for pope france that starts tuesday on "today." matt lauer will the live from

rome. if it's sunday, it's "meet the press." \ s i'm craig melvin you're watching msnbc news, the 34r5is for politics. >> i'm sorry about this incident. >> two ohio teenagers found guilty of rape that the prosecution says the case is far from over. >> the gop of old has grown stale and moss covered. >> defend the constitution. liberty is under assault from every direction. >> the face of the republican party needs to be the face of every american. >> we don't need a new idea. there is an idea. the idea's called america.

being called the new faces of the gop, but will these new faces be enough to bring the grand back to the old party? [ speaking in foreign languag ] language ]. >> and the new pope gives his first blessing to sunday crowds at st. peter's square. one will the new pontiff mean for the 21st century catholic church? >> you can never feel by looking at what it's like to be in a battle like that. >> and ten years after the u.s.-led invasion of iraq, we look back and ahead with some of the journalists who brought us those incredible stories and images live from the battlefield. topping our political headlines. first, though, today it's all about the budget. maryland democrat incongressman argues republicans are not the only ones proposing a balanced

budget. >> our projections show that the budget we will submit will actually balance. it will balance at the same time the republicans budget balanced last year, which is out in the future around 2040. >> meanwhile, republican congressman paul ryan defended his budget as a document of vision. >> our budget encapsulates what we think is the right way to go. fundamental tax reform for economic growth. patient center care rhee placing obama care. a responsible balanced budget. >> meanwhile, abc this week, house speaker john boehner says although they disagree, he trusts president obama. >> the president and i, as i've made very clear, have a very good relationship. we're open with each other. we're honest with each other. but we're trying to bridge some big differences. >> so do up trust president obama? >> absolutely. >> absolutely? >> absolutely. >> absolutely. firearms, flip-flops and flights

to the middle east will all be part of what next week in washington will look like. lots to talk about. i want to get right to it. msnbc contributor goldie tailor of the goldie taylor project and david of the "the washington p." good to see all of you. good story with the republicans rank, when ohio senator rob portman, want co-sponsor of doma, defense of marriage act, snu ports same-sex marriage citing his gay son. house speaker john boehner asked about his own stance this morning on abc. take a listen. >> can you imagine yourself in a situation where you reversed your decision as portman has on gay marriage, if a child of yours you someone you loveed told you they were gay? >> i believe that marriage is the union of one man and one woman. it's what i grew up with. it's what i believe.

it's what my church teaches me. and i can't imagine that position would ever change. >> david, what kind of effect will portman's revelation have on the republican party, if any? >> i think, craig, it's interesting. you saw president obama last year move forward on proclaiming his support for gay marriage and he said recently when he reiterated that, that the country is moving. i think senator portman the position as well, affected by his own family is another reflection of that. that said, i'm not sure it's going to make the biggest difference among the republican party. even though they're talking about the republicans want, you know, to expand their base to encapsulate broader sex in america, younger voters overwhelmingly support gay marriage, the younger voters, i think it's going to be still al bit of a slow walk for the republican party to do so. may they're going to move quickly on issues like immigration. so it's a powerful, personal sentiment but not sure it will make a big difference. >> goldie, talk about the base

david mentioned there. how important is the protection of traditional marriage to the gop base at this point? >> i think it's really at the core. i think david is absolutely right about that. portman's coming out on this issue won't necessarily impact the gop, except they may be wine is portman in a little white. at the end of the day, i came to the same kind of personal evolution as portman did, so i aren't that about him, but you've got to look at portman's record, what else they in terns of not supporting lgbt people unless they adopt children, what he's done legislative there there in the senate. and that all, since he came out -- his son came out to him. so since then, he's continued the same kind of very, you know, unfortunate track prord on lgbt rights. >> this everybody rugs you alluded to, what are you talking about there? >> i had a child came out to me in her freshman year in college, and it took our family through

a -- i'm an evangelical, raised for a one man, one woman marriage, and it took some real soul searching on my part so that i could not only embrace my child, but embrace, you know, her individual right, you know, to live out this country's -- this country's promise. >> someone made a point me last night i think is worth sharing. the point essentially was, why should it take a congressman, or why should it take nip elected official having a gay child, or having a gay sister or gay brother? why should it take that to change their mind? if a congressman or any sort of elected official is supposed to be representing the interests of, you know, their constituents, why should it take that? >> that's the difference between the conversation you just had with goldie and what is incumbent upon a senator. goldie i think, is sharing a part of her life. very interesting. i didn't know that.

but goldie was ultimately talking about private policy of what she does with her family and the conversations they have. we expect something different from our politicians who are working on public policy. so it should make us skeptical, if the only way you get to somebody's dignity or respect as a public servant is by fey figut it's in your own broad interest or family. the republican party's got to find a way to respect people's rights even when they don't look like them i. want to play another piece of sound, switching gears, and talk about someone rnc chairman says on cbs this morning. him talking about changing the campaign calendar for 2016. take a listen, guys. >> what i would personal want to do is, i would set a beginning dade, maybe january 1st, and the then i would set a new end date for the primary season. maybe the end of april. no later than mid-may.

if you have your convention at the end of june or mid-july, you compress the primary process. >> even mitt romney's campaign has said have a such a long and -- battled members. really hurt him in the general election. what will shortening the primary process mean for republicans, david? >> well, craig, i think we all remember the primary process alluded to on the republican side. it wasn't the most glamorous of primaries. there was a lot of sort of misstatements i think, and i don't think the republican party was really proupd of itself, in the way they pick the candidate. although the establishment probably looked at mitt romney and eemerged the win perp had to spend a lot of money. couldn't spend it against obama until nominated in the nomination late in august, so that sort of was troubling for them, and the obama campaign spent a lot of money. didn't have toll worry about that. spent a lot of are money

attacking romney. republicans will maybe speed it up next go-round. >> shortening the primary process and limits debates is bad flus for cable news. >> i think it's baz news for cable news, but not voters. voters deserve to see as much of these candidates as possible, and if that means a more prolongs period with more debate so we can hear nem all of their machinations, that's important. it's also important, because a primary strengthens the candidate. getting to the general election without a very strong primary is like showing up to the super bowl without playing the first half of the season. i think it's really important. what the gop really has to do, start fielding better candidates. start fielding credibility kpndkpnd. embracing that. >> and all of you, thank you so much. appreciate it.

>> thanks. >> thanks, greg. >> thank you. i want to turn that that developing story in steubenville, ohio, today a judge ruled two high school football players charged with raping a teenage girl are guilty. >> give the parents an opportunity to say anything. >> an emotional scene in juvenile court there, a 17-year-old trent mays and 16-year-old -- >> i'm sorry to put you guys through this. i'm sorry. >> an emotional scene there in juvenile court as 17-year-old trent mays and 16-year-old ma'lik richmond broke down in tears. family members sobbing there as well. each had a chance to address the

court and in a surprising move, richmond, you could see there, got up out of his chair, addressed the victim's family directly. nbc's ron allen is live outside of the courthouse for us in steubenville. ron, i understand the attorney general also made a big announcement directly after that ruling. what did he say? >> reporter: well, he said essentially that the investigation continues and that a grand jury will be convened to see who else might be held responsible for these crimes. it was a very, very emotional and powerful day in that courtroom. the first time ma'lik richmond and trent mays expressed any remorse or apologized for their crimes's they maintained think innocence right to the end, and i think it's fair to say that until this happened, they may not have realized the enormity of the crime. there was a lot of testimony during the course of this four-day trial that suggested that a lot of the young people involved, the victim herself, didn't realize that what was happening was essentially rape. and that it could be prosecuted so severely. the attorney general,

prosecutors, made the point that this is a very serious crime here in the state of ohio, and had these young boys been tristed as adults by the court system, they could be put in jail for a very long time. as it is, they are going to be held in juvenile detention for a year or two, and until they are 21 years old. they also have to register as juvenile sex offenders. it's a pretty stiff sentence they're handed down and it will fundamentally change their lives. their families very upset. the victim's family, we talked to their attorney a bit about all of this. she was, expressed mixed emotions about this. she was glad that the verdict had come down but this is a young girl, a 16-year-old girl who is very anxious to try, emphasize try, to get on with her life and having difficulty doing this, you might imagined. it happened among a group of school friends, know each other and have known each other most of their young lives. a very close-knit community.

a lot of commentary. people concerned about the text messages sent by the young people throughout that night. tens of thousands of them laced with profanity, laced with vulgarity. a lot of alcohol consumed. no parental supervision. all of that raised very serious questions through this community and many others beyond here watching this trial that exploded on social media across the nation. >> ron allen for us in steubenville, ohio. thank you, ron. a new pope prepares to take the chair of st. peter, but does this mean a new day for the catholic church? also, she was pretty coy with me yesterday on our air, but it turns out this utah mayor may be making another move towards national office after all. >> reporter: about 100 miles or so south of baghdad, and really a tremendous discovery of a huge supply of weapons. and ten years after the iraq war started, we assemble some of the people there to witness

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[ speaking in foreign languag ] language ]. another reminder this morning that this pope does not always follow the playbook. indeed this morning when pope francis addressed his first sunday morning crowd from the vatican balcony he strayed from a written speech and delivered off the cuff remarks about god's power to forgive. also deviating from tradition, he delivered those remarks only in italian, not multiple languages to a crowd of more than 150,000 in st. peter's square. pope francis did, however, tweet in english, and other languages

as well. is eminence writing, dear friends, i thank you from the heart, and i ask you to continue to the pray for me. nbc news contributor prr, live the vatican. thanks for sticking around and staying up late for us. i understand that he completely shocked some pastors earlier when he made an impromptu appearance from a side gate at the vatican. is this a man who has not yet fallen into the formality of the job or do you think we should continue to expect the unexpected from him? >> oh, that's a great way to put it, craig. continue to expect the unexpected. especially in regards to his personality. a man who's been a leader of his diocese in argentina for years and knows -- comfortable in his own skin. this is the way he is. i think he's -- he feels free to it be himself completely. he has confidence that that won't impede god's work through

him. so what we've gown see, i think that's how he's going to be as pope. >> talk to me a little about the reaction around the square earlier today. at pope francis' first sunday on the job, so to speak. >> you mentioned, the crowds were huge and the plaza started filling up very early. and that shows that right from the very beginning of his pontiupon pontificate when the he first came out, he has won over the hearts of the catholics here in rome and many non-catholics. a special audience, extra 5,000 journalists covering the stories here, many of whom are not catholics and not even christians and won over their hearts as well. i think what we're seeing in the personality of this pope is a great sincerity that's kind of combined with a sense of humor, and he doesn't -- he's not afraid. not afraid to say what he truly believes and thinks and that connects with people and shows

he knows how to listen and as well as expressing the truths of our faith and that's connecting with people's hearts. >> in recent day, a lot of talk about the fact pope francis is the first jesuit pope. in irony, some have said, typically jesuits take an oath not to strive for higher office. but he wasn't a typical jesuit anymore than a typical pope. is that a fair assessment? >> depends what you mean by typical jesuit. when i think of jesuits i think of the 500 years of religion that that religious order, an order of priests has tradition of sends missionaries to every corner of the world, to help people in every type of need, and also finding creative ways to be missionaries. to evangelize, and if that's your typical jesuit, i think this pope fits there. something else we've seen in his preaching, which kind of is associated with jesuit preaching in general is, he's not giving

real long homilies. a couple points. very clear, very personal. not giving long discourses. he's getting to the point quickly. a sign as well of the -- the capacity of the jesuit training, enabling a priest to kind of be brief but to be, have a lot of substance. we're seeing that a little bit. depends what you mean by a typical jesuit. one of the things he's already shown even from the moment he chose his name of francis, after st. francis, who was a -- st. francis of assisi,au apostle of peace and to the poor. a love for the poor and concern for social corruption and injustice, something that's typical of the jesuits for the last few decades. >> father john bertunic at the vatican. thanks very much. in about an hour, vice president biden, and the u.s. delegation, will arrive for the papal inauguration there in rome.

and keep it right here on msnbc all tuesday for all-day coverage of pope francis' installation mass coming up here. how the war in iraq changed the gop, plus -- >> the looters begin. employee a warehouse upwind. the fire threatens the hospital and a few small extinguishers are brought out. gunshots from the looters. >> we get a unique view of the iraq war. some of the people who brought us those stories from the battlefield. you're watching msnbc. a febreze experiment.

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we'll see. it will be up to my family and certainly utah. >> it's the big tease in politics. keeping options open. her answer yesterday when i talk to her, rising conservative star about a possible second attempt at taking the house seat she lost to jim matheson. we've learned she's reaching out already. hired former gop chair dave hansen to help explore options. she lost in november by a little less than 1 percentage point. more news from the political play grooup includingoverbial p of town at the same time. a president and vice president rarely leave country at the same time. on tuesday, president obama scheduled on a trip to the middle east, and vice president joe biden, i mentioned, arriving shortly in rome. expected to be at the vatican all day tuesday for the papal

inauguration. depending on flight times, there's a good possibility that the top dogs in washington will be gone simultaneously. kind of looks like the keys to the white house already got left to the kids. take a look at that. it was michelle obama, though, who suggested the fountains on the north and south lawns were d dyed green to mark st. patrick's day today. and an encore. watching barney frank take the broadway stage for a one-week appearances in a play, we've learned frank has another retirement plan up his had sleeve. the outspoken democrat just printed an opinion piece in the main sunday telegram, and if you read the fine print, you'll learn he will now be a regular contributor to "the telegram's" insight section. and more trouble for carnival cruise lines. a third ship, count three now,

finds itself in need of repairs. first. an iraqi came up, perfect english, an american hostage being held, she's at the hospital. make sure authorities know. >> a look back at some of the most monumental moments of the war are in iraq with journalists including the one you just saw there who helped cover it ten years ago. you're watching msnbc. the place for politics. i'm up next, but now i'm singing the heartburn blues. hold on, prilosec isn't for fast relief. cue up alka-seltzer. it stops heartburn fast. ♪ oh what a relief it is!

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images from earlier today. carnival "legend" cruise ship docking in florida. the latest carnival cruise to have trouble it's a sea. remember last month, more than 4,000 passengers were stuck on the carnival "triumph" eight days with no working toilets nap it luckily did not happen on "the legend" but passengers were held up thanks to a glitch in the ship's propulsion system. i'm craig melvin. a look at other top stories. in india, five men in police

custody for allegedly gang raping a swiss tourist this weekend. plips say the 39-year-old victim was traveling wig her husband when she was attacked. right now back here, police in pennsylvania are still trying to figure what caused that deadly bus crash yesterday. the bus was carrying a college women's lacrosse team when it veered off the road, hit a tree. the driver, the team's pregnant coach and her unborn child all killed. a mass is clanned on campus tonight. and it's not only the irish celebrating st. patrick's day today. the duke and duchess of cambridge got in on the action. will and kate went to a parade and the duchess gave the soldiers shamrocks as well. ten years ago this week, the united states and its allies launched its shock and awe attack on iraq. the early days of the war saw success with touster of stape a

hussein, but violence in iraq continues. we talk with a few of the many journalists embedded with u.s. troops in iraq and kept americans in the know about what was happening there. i want to bring in nbc news correspondent kerry sanders, who was embedded in iraq from kabul, afghanistan. mike taibbi also embedded in iraq and also in kabul for us tonight, former cbs news correspondent kimberly dozier now with the associate press, she was seriously wounded. her camera crew killed while they were covering the war. good to see all of you. >> good to be here. >> hello. >> let me start with you. the neiman foundation back in the summer of 2003 called embedding a success saying in part, embedding allowed far greater access to the battlefield than the press endured in more than two decades and dampened the long hostilitity between the pentagon and the press.

highway dp being embedded affect your ability to cover the war? >> you know, i'd add to that statement that it was also law, and the true new complexion to all of this. we weren't just there able to be exactly with. i was with the 28, with the marines, it wasn't just i was with them as they were working but with them with a live camera and microphone literally crawling in the dirt up on a sand berm, putting my microphone out as a young marine would have his weapon out trained on the enemy here. i kind of like didn't to this -- if you wanted to get a picture of the whole war, you weren't going to get it from me. imagine you wanted a disruption how i looked, all i could give you, a description of the tip of my finger. you wouldn't know what kerry sanders looked like. but if you had all the different reporters weighs in with different parts of it you might be able to piece it together. that's what we doing. little snapshots from locations so people at home could piece it together and get an overall picture how the war was proeging

on the battlefield. >> mike, you spent a good chunk of time with one specific unit'sthe 3rd infantry. what wases that experience like? >> well, i think that the 3rd infantry, the characterization of them being the tip of the sword was accurate and with other campaigns. i hooked up after our colleague david bloom died away from kuwait. great reporting at that point came to an end when 3rd i.d. settled in, saddam's old palace. i joined them then. one of the things i remember of that notion talking about, being right in the middle of a unit involved in the war, you get to see all the things they go through and all the ways the war impacts them. we did a long story on a critical incidentful stress bebriefing session. 14 guys in one squad, through the horrific aspects. a terrible incident at checkpoint at the end, opened

fire on somebody they thought just jumped the checkpoint. a family who panicked. and the father and the daughter were killed and the mother survived, and came out and stars and stripes gave a photograph saying, why? what happened? these guys were so devastated by it. they sue prelsed it to a point, but in this long three-hour session talked how it seared into them and they'd never forget and they'd raised them to figure they came up with a translator making it clear everybody coming through the checkpoint exactly what was happening. to be that close to a unit as they go through that, acknowledge that, confront it, tells you something about the cost of war not being embedded would not allow you to tell. >> kimberly, protecting, about 140 journalists killed. the iraq war, from 2003 to 2009, were you badly wounded. colleagues, paul douglas, james brolin killed and, of course, as mike alluded to, we lost david

bloom there died traveling in the iraqi desert. how did you deal with the constant danger? with the constant fear? >> well, you know, i would say one of the ironic things was towards the end of my time there, we were hit, in my particular case in 2006, we had started going out with the troops occasionally, because early on -- because its would lead to a good story from their point of view, but we tried to balance it spending time with iraqis. we'd drive to mosul up north. weez drive out to fallujah on the highway. but it got more and more dangerous. kidnapping became a threat. insurgents started targeting us. so we started embedding with troops towards the end of my time there because it was the safest way, ironically, to try to see what was going on outside the walls of our hotel rooms. that's how we ended up in our case on memorial day in 2006

with a foot patrol that was doing the kind of patrols that would later lead to some security in baghdad, face to face with the people. they wanted to be out talking to the people on that street, asking them who planted a roadside bomb the day before. unfortunately, someone knew we coming and we walked into an ambush. car bomber waiting until we were close enough and command detonated it through us. you always news that kind of risk was there. the nigh before any shoot, you always talked with your team. you relied on everyone's instincts. we didn't see this one coming. there were other times when we all said, no. we're not going to go there. not tomorrow. somebody feels badly. someone's -- you know, senses going off. not today. but there were times, you talked to troops the same way. they're instincts telling them, don't go out today, but they would have to take that patrol. have to do that mission and walk into it.

it's just always with you, and it becomes part of the job. >> kerry sanders, you were one of the first reporters to tell us that a female u.s. soldier, jessica lynch, had been rescued from an iraqi hospital. take a look, take a listen. >> inside that saddam hospital, which i need to note is also an iraqi military headquarters, 19-year-old jessica lynch. she was inside and the authorities, the military knew she was in there, because somebody inside the hospital had written a hand. written note say that she here. that she's alive, and they even gave the room number where she was. >> kerry, tell us how all of that came about. >> it was really strange. first of all, we were in this area near nasiriyah, and somebody stopped and told me that there was an american woman who was being held, a soldier, held and tortured, they said, inside that hospital. and so not exactly sure why they came up and talked to me as

opposed to those who were in uniform around me. maybe i was non-threatening, but they came up to me, told me what was going on. i passed the information on. as it turned out, there she was. we're not sure about the whole torture thing but at the end of the day, her rescue took place. the young woman from west virginia, in the army, took a wrong turn and wound up being wounded and being taken to that hospital, and then eventually the rescue. bought very tense early days of the war, because here we had a woman who was being held at the time, believed to being held prisoner. unclear whether you call somebody who is being treated at hospital a the prisoner, but at that moment, she was a prisoner who was wounded. >> mike taibbi, how much did the military try to exercise over embeddeds like you?

>> depends how much of a, success you had, or whatever the team has had with the command. with the command center. it they tend to trust you. they're going to tell you more. they're not going to turn down any kwe69 you come to them with but if they trust you, they'll let you know. the briefings, tell you what they're going to do. you have a choice, kim was saying, whether you think, your instincts tell you it's a safe thing to do. harp on two things. i think they're fairly significant. one what kim said about being embedded was the safest way, least dangerous way to cover the wars. that's true because of a reason that has to do whip where we are. this is the internet age. when i cut my teeth in the '70s, go to a checkpoint, american television written ot wind screen and shout american television, all sides needed us to tell their story. now they -- >> a passport. >> if they want to make a point, get their story told, they have the internet. make a point, they can and have

beheaded, executed somebody on camera. they don't need us. our only real value to the insurgents on either side, hostages. increasing the danger on us exponentially and kerry talks be a the fact, potential for live coverage. we saw and heard a lot of that in the beginning of this war. think about it. a terrible loss in iraq, over 4,000 losses's men and women. terrible tragedy. on the third day of gettysburg, pickett's trarg, 6,000 casualties in three hours. imagine if live television, on the spot realtime reporting was available then, what the public would have known about that war, what opportunity to react in the a day of way? it's a whole different ball game. >> kimberly, i'm -- >> the one thing you have to be -- >> i was going to say, i want to endy were you. you're on the intelligence beat for the a.p. quickly what has the mill -- what has the press, for that matter as well, what have we learned from some of the intelligence failures in the iraq war?

>> well, you know, the cia reformed thousa ed how it did i analytic process. the things that led to the conclusion than saddam hussein had weapons of mass destruction, created the whole system of red teaming, where you'd question yourself and question yourself and kquestion yourself and it's through that process that we were led to the raid that got osama bin laden. they questioned that information over and over and over again until they were sure, because they didn't want to make another mistake like iraq. one of the positive things that came out of that whole process in iraq, the hunt for the al qaeda leader apew abu czar ca-. have-o some would say, had the invasion

not taken place we wouldn't have had that. that's for another segment. >> thank you all for your work then and thanks for your work now as well. be safe, guys. we should note here as well that during the eight years of the war in iraq, as we mentioned in our conversation, more than 4,400 americans were killed. some 32,000 were wounded. that does not, of course, include the more than 100,000 civilian deaths as well. the financial costs of the war, it reached somewhere north of $800 billion. but most non-partisan experts suggest that by the time we're finished paying all the bills it will be closer to $2 trillion or $3 trillion. coming up, what the iraq war ten years ago means for the gop of today. this is msnbc. the place for politics. ♪ just one bite opens a world of delight... ♪ a flavor paradise of delicious fishes ♪

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my fellow citizens, at this hour, american and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm iraq, to free its people, and to defend the world from grave danger. >> reporter: and with those words, the iraq war ushered in a dramatic change in politics as we know it. let's go to our political war room right now. former democratic congressman, patrick murphy. he was the first iraq war veteran to serve in congress. republican strategist ron christie, former special assistant to president george w. bush. thanks to both of you. >> absolutely. >> and happy st. patrick's day. >> i was about to say. >> all three of us with green ties. >> the irish can't be upset with

us. ten years after the invasion, most americans are still very critical of the war in iraq. abc news/"washington post" poll, nearly six out of ten americans say that the war was not worth fighting. the poll also found similar sentiments over the war in afghanistan. as a veteran, as a congressman, how surprised are you about numbers like this? or are you surprised at all? >> i'm not surprised at all. i mean, we all know that the iraq war was the war of choice. it was an unnecessary war, and it was a war, really, on two false premises. one, that there were weapons of mass destruction, that our own intelligence said it was no, but our civilian administration championed faulty intelligence. and secondly, the fact that there was a connection with 9/11 in iraq, which there was none. now, those numbers -- i was surprised on the afghanistan number. that was the right war to bring bin laden to justice. we've done that now and it's time to bring our troops home. but the iraq war, absolutely not. that was absolutely my sentiment, even though i served there, and most americans. >> ron, much has justifiably

been made of the lost blood and the treasure that we've lost, but politically, there have been some ramifications, especially for your party. there's an op-ed in "the washington post," and it claims that the republicans lost their hold on the national security issue, in part because of the war in iraq. op-ed saying in part, quote, the republican's mismanagement of the war allowed democrats to reclaim an issue lost to them since the truman administration. suddenly, the gop wasn't viewed as unquestionably strong on national security. how long and what it's going to take for the gop to bounce back from the war in iraq, politically? >> i think it's going to take some time. ting there's no question, as patrick mentioned, there was certainly the sense in the administration, i was working in the white house that day, that we believe that there was a connection with 9/11. we believe that there was a connection with the weapons of mass destruction of stephen hadl hadley, one of our former national security advisers came out and said, that was wrong. we made a mistake. there's absolutely no question that the republicans now have lost really the stronghold that we've had for decades, of, we are the party for national

defense. but one thing i would counter with is, it shouldn't be a republican or a democratic issue. it should be americans standing united. so it shouldn't be the democrats are better at this or the republicans. it's, the civilian leadership making the best choices to put our men and women in uniform in harm's way. >> especially, craig, i want to highlight that. there's a quote that i used to try to follow, that politics should stop at the water's edge. >> yeah. >> we're all americans. and we saw that spirit on 9/11. the problem is, and i'm not saying you or -- but there were folks within the administration, i would say, specifically dick cheney -- >> and paul wolfowitz as well. >> and paul wolfowitz, those guys knew that they were basically getting intelligence that our own cia said was wrong and they manipulated and championed that faulty intelligence to sell it to some in the administration, but also to the american public. >> i want to play what paul wolfowitz said this morning on cnn. take a listen and we'll talk about it on the other side. take a listen. this was a few hours ago. >> bottom line. would, given what you know today, would you have done it

again? >> i certainly would have done it differently, particularly with respect to our counterinsurgency strategy. let's be clear about that. >> was the miscalculation of the insurgency the greatest of the mistakes we made in iraq? >> no, no, it was the reckless arrogance of people like that gentleman right there, the one who said after the highest ranking general in the army, general shinseki, who lost his foot in vietnam, who testified in congress, before we go to iraq, we'll need several hundred thousand foot, it was that general right there who said, the general is widely off the mark, and we were discounting him. so we had about as half as many troops as we needed. which is one of the reasons why i lost 19 men there who never made it home. >> we just didn't have enough boots on the ground from the beginning? >> no. besides from it not being the right war, if we're going to commit our troops, we should give them enough troops that they need and the equipment.

when roadside bombs are blown up every day -- >> and then you had secretary of defense donald rumsfeld saying, you go to war with the army that you have. >> that's right, craig. and this is what ticks most americans off, whether you're a democrat or a republican. these guys are making these knucklehead decisions, have no skin in the game. when it was their generation serving war, none of them served. paul wolfowitz didn't serve in vietnam. george bush didn't. dick cheney said, well, i had better things to do during vietnam. he got four deferments. you had to send my generation's sons and daughters into war without the right equipment, without enough troops, and based on faulty intelligence. it's immoral, it's reckless, and it's wrong. >> the only thing i would say to that, of course, it wasn't just the bush administration making that determination, it was our allies in france, it was our allies in britain. we had a coalition of the willing who actually went over to iraq and said, this was the right war to fight at this time. i agree with you. i have serious reservations about whether we should have gone in there or not. and you are going to go into

war, you have to damn well sure you have all the equipment that you need. were mistakes made? absolutely. but will this ultimately tarnish the gop? no. >> we'll have to leave it there. lots more coming up. congressman patrick murphy, republican strategist, ron christie, thanks to both of you, for being here. and folks, don't forget to watch the msnbc special "hubris" hosted by rachel maddow. it airs this friday right here on msnbc. the vice president is on his way to rome. he's going to be attending the pope's installation mass. and what else. also, the head of the gop gets ready to tell us what went wrong in 2012. the autopsy is finished. we'll get a preview from the rnc's main spokesman. this is msnbc, the place for politics. [ male announcer ] when it comes to the financial obstacles military families face, we understand. our financial advice is geared specifically to current and former military members and their families.

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for politics. and we start with lessons learned. >> we have to develop the best technology, with the best minds and train volunteers and candidates with the modern tools to succeed. >> the rnc chief getting ready to give his 2012 autopsy. we'll get a preview. also, as president obama heads to israel, is peace in the middle east top of mind for him or is this simply a mission to mend fences? >> now, you know, back home in kentucky, if you get your tail whipped, you don't whine about it. you stand up and you punch back. >> and as the senate minority leader takes a fighting stance in the race to keep his seat, we now learn there are more than just two dogs in this fight. first, though, the nra now setting its sights on the united nations. according to the "washington post," the gun group requires a u.n. treaty that would require member nations to monitor some

weapons. the nra is concerned that civilian firearms could fall under those regulations. ten years after the start of the iraq war, robert gates says challenges still remain. >> it's too soon to tell whether it was a huge strategic miscalculation that destabilized the entire region, in part by strengthening iran, or whether it was the first break in decades of authoritarianism in the arab world. >> and wisconsin governor, scott walker, is he or isn't he running for president in 2016? this is him early on "meet the press". >> you're going to iowa. would you like to be a nominee of the republican party? >> i've been to michigan, i've been to illinois, i've been to other places. i'm perfectly satisfied being governor of wisconsin. right now we're keeping an eye on rome where joe biden and a delegation of u.s. leaders are

expected to touch down within minutes, all of them there to attend the papal inauguration on tuesday. peter alexander is monitoring from the white house for us. and he joins us live with details. peter, who else is going to be joining the vice president for this historic trip? >> reporter: this is the first catholic vice president of the united states. he is joined on this trip by some other leading catholics in america. among them, nancy pelosi, the house minority leader, the president of georgetown university here in washington, d.c., also the governor of the state of new mexico, susanna martinez. and while joe biden will be heading off to rome for the installation of pope francis i, he'll return just in time for the president to head off to israel and the middle east, where he will go to an area, obviously, that sees the convergence of three of the world's religions, judaism, christianity, and islam, making stops both in israel, where he will visit with benjamin netanyahu, as well as seeing the grave site of theodore hersel,

the father of hedonism. then he will have meetings with the president of the palestinian authority, mahmoud abbas. >> peter alexander from the white house for us on this sunday. thank you. over the last month, five members of the republican party, including ari fleischer have set out cross-country to gather information about what went wrong during the 2012 election and how the rnc can improve going forward. their findings will be unveiled tomorrow. here's rnc chair, reince priebus, on cbs this morning, talking about the one thing that they are already working on, the number of gop primary -- >> it hurt, because there was no way to control it. if you have nine candidates and nine out of ten raise their hand and say, i'm going to take any two-hour block offered, well, then you have a debate every three days and you're the only show in town. so while we were playing footsie debating each other 23 times, what was the other side doing? they were spending potentially

hundreds of millions of dollars on data, technology, voter outreach. they're actually getting the job done. >> joining me now with more, sean spicer, communications director for the rnc. sean, it's good to see you. >> thank you, craig. good afternoon. happy st. patrick's day. >> happy st. patrick's day to you as well. good to see you in your green. you guys had a task force to speak with people all over the country, in order to try to figure out how the rnc could improve. what was the most common gripe that you found, that people had in the wake of the 2012 election? >> well, as you pointed out, we spoke to 51,000 people throughout the country, and frankly, there was no common theme, there was no magic bullet that said, if you did this, you would have won. i think what we found was there was a lot of things, there's a messaging piece, a mechanics piece, a datas piece, a ground game operations piece, all of which we have to work on to be a better party and to grow. so we're going to look at -- we recognized all of those areas are problems and we're going to

present a series of solutions tomorrow morning on how the party can address each of them and grow. >> you said messaging there was one of the problems. but we heard from a number of folks, including senator marco rubio last week at cpac, and he says that messaging is not a major problem. >> well, i think what we can all agree upon and i think what senator rubio is talking about is that the principles of our party are strong, are sound. the way in which we communicate them sometimes isn't. i think as chairman frpriebus points out, we get caught up in the math war. that balanced budgets are good and deficits don't make sense. but we forget to connect those policies to why people should actually care about them, in terms of they lead to greater economic growth and more jobs and things like that. and i think sometimes we forget in our messaging to connect to, frankly, the heart, if you will. why people actually think you

care about what you're doing because it connects to them in some way. that's an area i think we have to do better. there are some messengers that do better than others. but that is definitely an area that we need to look at our policies and say, how do we communicate them in a way that might be more welcoming, more optimistic, and more positive. >> one major initiative that the rnc is planning to launch coming up for tomorrow's report is this technological initiative. i know you've hired a chief of staff, whose main priority is to get the rnc up to snuff with your competitors. what specific ways are you planning to enhance your data infrastructure? >> that's a great question. i think you've got a give credit where credit is due. the obama campaign did a fabulous job of utilizing data, data analytics, social scientists, and things like that. we've god tot to do the same th frankly, craig. that means hiring a chief technology officer, bringing in some of the best and brightest minds not just from in d.c. and in politics, but from silicon valley and other places in the

tech world who can apply what they know in this industry to politics. it's an area that we have to do better in, and that the chairman is committed to, both in data, digital, and areas of technology. we've got to do better in all of those areas. >> here's the thing. as i hear you talk about some of these things, i remember conversations that i had with you, that i had with reince priebus and some other folks, you know, six, seven months ago and some of the same things were being said. the gap in the ground game, the technological gap. why weren't you able to fix some of these things sooner? >> well, i think the foremost reason is there. frankly, we were comparing ourselves to ourselves. we looked at '08 and '04, and when it comes to something like the ground game, we did do better, not only in '08, but better than '08 and '04 combined. we thought, hey, that's fantastic. the problem is, the obama campaign was doing even better than that. we had continued to measure our own progress against ourselves. and frankly, that's, as we look back now, we say, that was a bad

benchmark. and so what we've got to do is, while we made strides, there's no question we made more voter contacts than in the history of the party. we did a better job in terms of door knocking and voter contacts, it wasn't enough and it wasn't as good as it can be. so i think sometimes you can say to yourself, yeah, we improved, we did better, but it wasn't good enough. and that's like any team that may score more runs than ever before. but if your opponent scores more than that, than, frankly, that's not good enough. and that's where we are right now. >> sean spicer of the rnc giving us a preview, of sorts, of that autopsy set to come out tomorrow. thank you, sir. i appreciate your time. >> thank you, craig. so how successful could the rnc's new plan be? and what's next for technology and campaigns in general? joining me now is mikko mele, who revolutionized the way political campaigns are run when he was working for then presidential candidate howard dean back in 2003 and incorporated the internet and social media into the race in a whole new way. good to see you, nikko. >> happy st. patrick's day from

boston, craig. >> where's your green, sir? >> i know! well, i'm italian, so. >> we just heard sean spicer a few moments ago there say that this major initiative that the gop is taking up in the wake of their 2012 losses is going to be technology. they were way behind the obama campaign in 2012, in terms of digital outreach and voter mining. how major of an undertaking is this going to be for the gop? >> i think it's pretty significant. there's no doubt that obama had a decisive advantage on the technological front, in 2012, a significant one, even in 2008, but at the same time, 24 months is an eternity in technology. and let's not forget that in 2004, after bush defeated kerry, everyone was trumpeting the republican's microtargeting data advantage. so while i think that the obama campaign and the democratic party has a decisive advantage right now, it's not buy any

stretch of the imagination an impossible one to overcome. >> nikko, in the simplest of terms here, for folks watching at home, especially, explain to all of us what the dnc has been able to do with technology, that the rnc has not been able to do. >> sure. that's a great question. i would say that it kind of boils down to three buckets. the first bucket is actually not so much about technology, and more about culture and organization. the dnc and the obama campaign has a very fast-moving culture, a very relatively flat organizational structure. they're able to make decisions very quickly on twitter speed, not on tv speed. not on traditional political campaign speed. and they're also able to just rapidly test enormous volumes of messages on the internet to figure out what's working. it was not uncommon for the obama campaign to test the subject line of an e-mail 10, 20, 30 times to figure out what

subject line was going to have the best response. that's less about -- well, that's equal parts technology as it is culture and organization. a relatively flat orb chart and the about to quickly make decisions based on data. the second bucket of things they were doing was about infrastructure, about data collection, about the ability to run these, what they call these a/b tests, where you test two subject lines or two messages and figure out which one performs best. and the data targeting was are quite exceptional, its ability to track undecided voters in every key county, every key precinct, and it was also about combining both online and offline. so that all the data that's being collected from all the different channels in the campaign could all be collated in one place, quickly, efficiently, relatively error free, produce reports that then the senior campaign staff, the campaign manager, could make

very critical decisions on a day-by-day, hour-by-hour, even a necessary minute by minute. >> i love when we can geek it up here on the weekends. >> well, i love the nerd life. >> thank you for your insights, sir, i appreciate that. thanks again. >> thank you. up next, a reality check on the president's trip to the middle east. how much can he really accomplish toward peace? plus, rand paul won the straw poll at cpac last night and it could say a little bit more than you might think about the gop. this is msnbc, the place for politics. i have a cold, and i took nyquil,

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the last time i was there as a senator, i still had the option of wandering through the old city in jerusalem. that option, i think, becomes a lot trickier once you're actually president. >> that was president obama speaking to israel's channel 2 about his upcoming trip to the middle east. mr. obama will leave on tuesday. it's his first trip to israel, as he mentioned there, his first trip as president. the president hopes to offer support to the middle east peace process. we want to take a reality check on what president obama can realistically accomplish on this trip, and even throughout the rest of his second term as well. joining me now from jerusalem, mark regev, the chief spokesman for israeli prime minister, benjamin netanyahu, and here in new york, a msnbc contributor and she was raised in east jerusalem. good to have both of you. mark, i'm going to start with you. the president has not even left

yet, and there's already some criticism of the trip. "the new york times" reports earlier this week, quote, israeli officials have voiced mild disappointment that the president is not addressing the knesset. is that going to be an issue for the israeli government and what are the expectations for the trip? >> no, i don't think so. th i think that came from a few members of the knesset, but as a whole we are really looking forward to the president coming, we welcome his visit and will be rolling out the red carpet. this is a good chance to show the world the very special relationship that exists between the united states and jerusalem. we're allies and friends and we're going to showcase that this week. as well as discussing a few important issues. we've got to deal with the crisis in syria. talk about stopping the iranians from getting a nuclear weapon. but we're looking forward to

this week and expecting very good meetings with the president. >> rula, what are palestinians saying about the president's trip? how do they feel? >> obviously, they want the united states and the president to be more involved in the issue. therm very well his speech in cairo in 2009 when he said the suffering of the palestinian or the persuasion of the palestinian is intolerable and we need to go back to the negotiation and nothing of that happened, nothing changed on the ground. actually, the prime minister just appointed neftali as the administers for housing and the infrastructure. so he would be building more settlements. the same issue that the president himself and the vice president asked israeli to freeze as a condition to restart negotiations and they never respected that. so i'm not sure we will accomplish anything on that front. i think they might -- the president wants to listen. he will listen to all parts and he will try to invite them to talk and to negotiate again, but i don't think he will -- anybody will listen to him from the israeli side. >> mark, how much of this visit

is simply a maintenance visit of sorts for president obama? how much of this is about laying the foundation for resuming the peace process? >> if it's possible to restart the peace process, no one will be more happy than israel. we have been calling for the last four years for restarting direct negotiations with the palestinians without any preconditions at all. we've suggested that leaders from both sides meet and talk and try to find solutions. because ultimately, that's the only way to move forward, by trying to bridge the gaps that exist. now, up until now, for the most part, the palestinians, for their own reasons, have chosen not to engage, to boycott the negotiating table. i hope that's about to change. and if the president comes with a message of peace and reconciliation, i can tell you israel is on board and i hope the palestinians will be too. >> what about, mark, and if i may, what about building in the areas that the palestinian are

asking you to stop building in, and what about the multiple things, the checkpoints and many other things that israel never wanted to implement, not even as a condition, as one of the reasons why that israel is a palestinian side in the agreement, one of the major things the israelis signed on that, actually, was to implement that and that was never implemented. >> mark, what's your response to that? >> you know, israelis and palestinians disagree on a whole range of issues. one of them is the one you just mentioned, the issue of settlements, but there are other issues too. we in israel are very disappointed that the palestinians deny our right to exist as a state. we've also got complaints. now, instead of being stuck in a negative framework of saying what the other side is doing wrong, i think that gets us nowhere. we have to say, what makes things better. and the first thing is to try to overcome those gaps in negotiations. instead of a negative dialogue

of confrontation, let's have a positive dialogue of reconciliation. and i say let's start peace talks now without preconditions, without piling up problems on the table, let's discuss candidly what separates us. that's the only way we're going to move forward. that's, i think, the message that has to be to get this peace process back on track. >> i do want to turn to perception in this country for just a moment here as well. rula, there's this new gallup poll that shows that american's support for israel matches an all-time high. there's the numbers right there. the poll shows that 64% support the israelis while 12% support the palestinians. to what do you attribute the surge and sympathy, so to speak? >> well, if you make that same poll in europe, it would be the other way around, simply because the palestinian point -- i think i am the only, the only palestinian tv host or analyst that's invited in the media. the only one. i think the only narrative that we heard in america over and over is an israeli narrative or

pro-israeli narrative. congress is 100% pro-israeli. the audience here, only that point of view. security, security, security, and they don't hear actually the other side, what the palestinian are going through. and i want to say, mark, one of the things that we all remember is the prime minister that was killed by a settler. and he used to say, i am making peace. this is his last words. "i'm not talking about anymore about it, i am making peace." the key word here is "making," doing peace, implementing accords and not talking more and more. we all know what we have to do. but i don't think this government, who ran on a platform, the israeli government, bibi netanyahu, ran on a platform, no negotiation, no recognition of anything that the palestinians are actually offering. >> 20 seconds to respond and wrap things up for us, mark. >> listen, my prime minister has just been re-elected and he's just put together a new government, and that government will be meeting president obama when he arrives here on

wednesday. this government wants peace. we are ready for historic reconciliation with the palestinians and i say, let's not waste time. let's immediately start peace talks with the palestinians. we can make life better for both palestinians and israelis. we can build a better middle east together. i'm not ignoring the problems. we have to deal with the issues very seriously in negotiations. we want to make sure that peace is a safe peace, a secure peace, a peace where people don't have to live in fear. but let's start negotiating today. >> mark regrev and rula jebreal, thank you both for your insights. palin versus rove. and a little bit later, why rand paul and his push for policy change could be good for the gop. you're watching msnbc, the place for politics. hey, it's sara. i'm going pro. i've been using crest pro-health for a week. my dentist said it was gonna help transform my mouth. [ male announcer ] go pro. for a clean that's up to four times better, try these crest pro-health products together. [ sara ] i've been using crest pro-health.

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back to -- they can head on back to the great lonestar state and put their name on some ballot. >> sarah palin there, not tina fey, the real sarah palin, taking a dig at republican political guru karl rove, the man george w. bush called the architect. shot back today saying, quote, if i did run for office and win, i would serve out my term and i wouldn't leave office midterm. palin, of course, resigned from office two years into her four-year term as governor of alaska. more on the top stories after the break, including a guilty verdict in the steubenville ohio teenage rape trial, but more charges could be coming in that case. and also, coming up, new insight on the race for the senate in kentucky. we've got some unique reporting on why one possible candidate may not be as popular as you might think. you're watching msnbc, the application. carfirmation. only hertz gives you a carfirmation.

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i would like to apologize to you people. i had no intentions to do anything like that. and i'm sorry to put you guys through this. and i would just like to -- i'm sorry. i didn't want -- >> lots of emotions, as you can see there, in a steubenville, ohio, courtroom today. a judge ruled that two high school football players accused of raping a 16-year-old girl are guilty. the football players broke down in tears upon hearing that verdict. they are 16 and 17 years old. they could be in juvenile jail until they turn 21. i'm craig melvin. good sunday to you. here's a quick look at some of the other top stories making news right now. will the sequester hold up your travel plans? we could find out tomorrow. the faa is expected to make a

final decision on closing air traffic control towers. the closures were proposed as part of the mandatory sequester spending cuts. the jodi arias is set to start up again tomorrow. the 32-year-old arizona woman is accused of stabbing and shooting her ex-boyfriend, travis alexander, back in 2008. arias admits that she killed hill, but says it was self-defense. and the germans, they do love themselves some david hasselhoff. the hoff there made an appearance in berlin earlier today. he was part of a protest to stop a real estate developer from tearing down part of the berlin wall. still a rock star in germany. back here, kentucky senator rand paul basked in the spotlight at cpac last night, after weighing the conservative group's straw poll. but what do we make of the win? what should we make of the win at cpac? our own ari melber is taking us behind the story on this sunday afternoon. what does it mean, good sir? >> i think the big news out of

cpac was named rand paul, that's certainly true. the junior republican from kentucky won the straw poll. i don't think that means paul is about to win the entire gop. remember, past winners include forgotten candidates like phil gramm and steve forbes and id l ideologues like gary bauer and ron paul, rand's father. on the basic level of short-term politics, that's probably bad for the gop. paul's a tough sell on policy and style. he opposes civil rights act, federal disability protections, and the neocon belief in an expansionist foreign policy. and that's why party leaders like john mccain and lindsey graham are already pushing back on paul's rise. and it's why mitch mcconnell, who leads the senate caucus, originally backed paul's primary opponent in their home state of kentucky. on the level of policy debate, however, i think paul could be good for the gop. the party now has lost the popular vote in five of the last

six elections, and yet most of its leaders still say their only problem is messaging, not substance. and that was a big theme at cpac this weekend. so while republicans started two wars that exploded the deficit, today, most of their budget proposals still are proposing the same foreign policy. now, paul is pushing the for actual policy change. he wants to reduce the military footprint and oversee the government's power to kill drones, to kill with drones, i should say. now, is that really libertarian or is that really liberal? i don't think it matters that much. i think it's a good debate over policy, not marketing that is overdue for this gop. craig? >> ari melber, thank you so much. i want to bring in the rest of our political brain trust, if you will. and don't forget, this weekend we started a new project, it's something that we're calling the biggest brain. that's why we've invited all of these bigheaded people. we'll have our brain trust in a second. i'm going to keep score here of who makes the best points.

there's really no rhyme or reason to it, really no way to quantify it. but in the end, we'll qualify someone biggest brain and you'll have 60 or 70 seconds to share what's on your brain at the end of the broadcast. biggest brain, we start with the brain trust, robert. i know you spent some time at cpac, right? is that right? >> i was at cpac all three days and had breakfast with rand paul earlier this week. >> let's talk about that. and for folks who don't know our regular cast of characters, we have perry bacon at the top of your screen, and ari melber, an msnbc contributor, also a writer for the nation. you mentioned rand paul, ari just talked about rand paul. everyone's talking about rand paul. you wrote a piece that i read, and i want to put up a full-screen quote from it. you talk about basically what a lot of folks have indicated, that rand paul's big fight, quote, it is nothing less than a fight for the soul of the gop on foreign policy. how at odds with his party is rand paul on foreign policy, robert?

>> perhaps not as at odds with the party as many suspect. one reason rand paul is having his moment this week, at cpac, with his filibuster of john brennan's nomination is he thinks the party, like much of the country, is becoming war weary, and they're perhaps open to an argument about a less interventionist foreign policy. so that's why i think rand paul is capturing the imagination of many conservative activists. >> perry bacon, what do you make of the rand paul -- it wasn't just a moment, obviously, with the filibuster, but that moment really lasted into cpac. he was the cpac star. he won the straw poll. lots of folks walking around in the stand with rand signs. >> i think the important thing to remember is he didn't just -- he articulated something really interesting on foreign policy, and took on president obama in a 13-hour filibuster. if you want to get republicans to get energized about you, one of the ways to do it is take a strong, principled stand against the president. and this is one of the more principled stand against the

president, as opposed to political ones that we've seen in the past four years, and that was a really important moment. i would say the thing about rand paul, his foreign policy views may be less controversial than we think they are. his domestic policy views may be more controversial than most parts of the republican party. he put out -- in a speech to cpac, he talked about how he wants to balance the federal budget in five years. that's half the time paul ryan wants the balance the budget in. that will call for a lot of cuts. he wants to eliminate the department of education, that was something the republicans were opposed to in 2000s and got away from under george w. bush. so rand paul's views are much more conservative than even a paul ryan. and that's something we could learn more about and could be more controversial. >> ari, perry mentioned and you mentioned it as well in your behind the story. i think a lot of folks, especially after the filibuster, and even during this past week, with his popularity at cpac, a lot of folks have kind of forgotten some of the kookier things that rand paul has suggested, and we're not just

talking about the fed here. >> no. i think he is basically the outer, outer edge of the senate caucus. what we're seeing then is a question about what cpac wants. cpac doesn't automatically mean the most conservative, although it can. and i think the real question for a lot of liberals was, is this genuine? and there's been a lot of debate, especially on the internet -- >> when you say "this"? >> is rand paul's dispute over drones and the filibuster, was it genuine? and i think i disagree with perry, if i understood him right, in that the big key difference on the partisanship here is that ron paul split the republican party as well. ron paul was famously controversial among republicans. they wanted to get him out of the debate. so this entire family legacy has not always been a boon to the gop. and that's, to me, why it's different. you can go benghazi. you could do the straight, run-of-the-mill, angry, anti-obama thing. and i understand that liberals are frustrated with all of the crap opposition to obama and the birth certificate opposition, but i think we have to be careful in lump everything around there -- perry wasn't

doing that, but a lot of other people have, because the drone question has been raised not only by liberals like ron wyden, but on friday, the bipartisan, unanimous appeals court in washington said, no, get out of town to the obama secrecy argument. not to entire program, but the secrecy. i think this thing is blowing up in a way that's important. >> we're going to take a quick break. robert, at some point, i'll ask you to characterize cpac for me. after the break, why the head-to-head matchup of mcconnell versus judd may not be the only story to tell in the bluegrass state. this is msnbc. with the spark cash card from capital one... boris earns unlimited rewards for his small business. can i get the smith contract, please? thank you. that's three new paper shredders. [ boris ] put 'em on my spark card. [ garth ] boris' small business earns 2% cash back on every purchase every day. great businesses deserve unlimited rewards. read back the chicken's testimony, please. "buk, buk, bukka!" [ male announcer ] get the spark business card from capital one and earn unlimited rewards. choose 2% cash back or double miles

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perry, i know you're a kentucky native and you've done some original reporting here as well. how popular is ashley judd with the democrats and mitch mcconnell with the republicans down there in your state? >> so the secret of this is that we've all been talking about mcconnell and judd and how exciting a race it is. people in kentucky are not excited about either one of the candidates as much as you would think they are. the higher-ups in the democratic party in kentucky view judd as being a little too liberal and worry that not only would she lose, but hurt senate candidates in the house senate down there. they've been touting another person, a secretary of state, her name is allison grimes, and they think she might be more of an electable candidate. and among republicans, mitch mcconnell has always in kentucky been more feared than loved, and his approval rating is pretty low, below 40% in polls, and there's a tea party republican, matthew bevin, who's been talking to the tea party groups down there and trying to get the kind of rand paul coalition behind him, and he's thinking

about challenging mcconnell in the primary. so judd versus mcconnell is anything but certain right now. >> here's the thing, perry. what about the $7 million that mitch mcconnell allegedly has in this war chest? this campaign war chest? >> $7 million is a lot of money, but when you're a candidate like mitch mcconnell and you're so well-known already, there are a lot of people who if a good -- if craig melvin ran in the republican primary down there and you had the right views, they'd rather have you -- mitch mcconnell has been a senator down there since 1984. he could spend every dollar -- >> perry, i love the idea of a craig melvin, but i just don't know where he stands. >> you know what, we're not playing this game. >> i could almost see the attack ad, where does craig melvin stand. >> robert costa, we'll come to you, you're the safest one right now. no question that the race itself down in kentucky has already gotten a little ugly, even though judd hasn't even said that she's in the race at all. this is mitch mcconnell taking a shot at a left-wing group at

cpac from a few days ago. he's talking about this questionable tweet about his wife. take a listen. >> don't tell me. don't tell me we're the party of intolerance where nearly two years before an election, some left-wing super pac is sending out racist tweets about my wife, for the supposed crime of being born in another country. >> what's he trying to do here, robert costa? >> i think he's not trying to do anything there except push back at those racist's tweet. any person in politics who uses someone's spouse and uses someone racial lineage or their heritage -- elaine cho, secretary of labor, it was just uncalled for. i think mcconnell was simply pushing back against that. i think mcconnell would actually like ashley judd to run. he could make the race about kentucky versus hollywood. judd, herself, actually is a tennessee resident. doesn't even live in kentucky,

though she has strong roots there. and i think mcconnell does fear a tea party primary. as much as he's confident in his financial stature within the campaign, with his war chest, if a tea party person runs, look, kentucky is the state that elected rand paul to the senate. he's a libertarian republican. he also just elected thomas massey, a libertarian congressman to the house. so he definitely knows that part of the party is moving in that direction. and just a quick note of what shows mcconnell's prowess. who did he hire to run his campaign? jesse benton, a top political strategist in kentucky who ran iran paul's senate campaign. >> what's your take? you've got to admit it would be a bit of an uphill climb for ashley judd. her position on coal, for instance, widely known. and in kentucky, the coal industry is responsible for at least 20,000 jobs. he apparently vacations in places like scotland. in kentucky -- >> you know what that means? >> what does that mean? >> i have no idea. >> but you know how they will -- how it will be perceived. she's a limousine liberal.

>> right. i don't think it matters where she vacations, the fact that she is a famous star will cut against her for those who want to make that out to be some kind of carpet bagger, which mr. costa alluded to. but at this point, i don't think either party has figured out at this juncture whether this works. republicans are making all this news because they want to scare her from entering, which means they do fear her. that's the first sign that there's a real fear here. because otherwise, they'd welcome her in. the water's warm. democrats, on the other hand, are concerned, because they don't necessarily have to care who wins the big race. they expect mcconnell to normally be re-elected. they're much more worried about coattails and whether she has reverse coattails and she's going to hurt these down-ballot dems. it's one of these places where people want to find a conventional wisdom. we don't know the answer. and i have to agree with robert that the attacks against mcconnell's wife are a double foul. obviously, the race is out of bounds, and on top of that, this whole idea that, you know, where she's from, the origins, and then going after family generally.

even if it was a legitimate with her policy stances, elaine cho is her own person and they should leave it to the side. >> and we should note, there have been a plethora of apologies. ashley judd apologized, the group apologized, but you're right, typically, families should definitely be off-limits. perry bacon, what part of kentucky are you from, just out of curiosity. >> i'm from louisville. >> that's not kentucky. i've been to kentucky. that's not kentucky. >> we're the ncaa champions! >> up next, who gets crowned the biggest brain, find out, only here on msnbc. introducing new febreze stick & refresh with command strips from 3m. designed to stick and eliminate odors anywhere. like this overflowing trashcan. to test it, we brought in the scott family. so what do you smell? beach house and you're looking out over the ocean. some place like, uh, hawaii in like a flower field. take your blindfolds off. aw man! [ screams ] [ laughs ] that smells good.

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as we mentioned a few minutes ago, we're starting a new experiment here on the weekend broadcast. we're going to let one of our regular brain truce tstees have moment. with us today, ari melber, perry bacon, and robert costa.

ari is disqualified for the biggest brain qualifications for a variety of reasons, which we can't get into on the air. robert, you are the runner-up this week. but perry bacon is the biggest brain this week for a variety of reasons. i did enjoy the original reporting on kentucky. i also enjoyed yours as well, robert costa, but you spent a lot of time at cpac, so you had a lot more to work with than perry bacon, i felt. so anyway, perry bacon, the floor is yours, good sir. take it away. >> thank you, craig. i'm sure you've heard about the core message of the book written by sheryl sandberg. the book is called "lean in." her basic is that for women needing to push their careers forward and advance, they have to lean into their career. but the book also has a profoundly important message for men, one that i wholeheartedly endorse. sandberg goes into great detail describing how much discrimination women face thattic mas it difficult for them to advance. we call women bossy or mean or

overly aggressive. male supervisors are eager to go to the bar with their male employees, but also worry about doing so with women. and the people the boss likes tend to be the people who get promoted. you also have the challenge of when a couple is married and they both work, it tends to be the man does very little housework and the women does all the housework, she does the child care, and she does the housework and this makes it harder for her to balance work and career. my message is "lean in" is a book written by a woman ceo and the audience is primarily women, but as men, we need to start reading this book and thinking about what we can do to make sure more of our wives, girlfriends, and daughters have a chance to run companies the way sheryl sandberg is. >> perry bacon, biggest brain on this sunday. what say you to that, robert cos costa? >> i think it's a great message from perry and from miss sandberg. the empowerment of women is always a positive thing and i think it's an interesting book, because facebook's been such a success story. and we know so much about mark

zuckerberg. i'm interested to learn more about her. >> ari, perry made an interesting point when he talked about guys going out for -- you know, folks going out for drinks. and there really does seem to be, in a lot of workplaces, still, a good ol' boy mentality when it comes to things like that. >> the bottom line is for men, certainly men in positions of power in the workplace is how do you relate to women. can you relate to them as colleagues. the notion of what perry alluded to, i'm not even going to go out with them, because i don't want it to be misconstrued is ultimately a protective instinct. you have to figure out how to relate to woman as not only an object of desire, or worried that people will see it that way, versus nothing. you have to find the middle ground. i know in the book, she also talks about seeking out mentors of either gender, because they won't come to you. having said all that, i'm always a little skeptical of the core

message being, hey, group that has challenges of a historical nature, work harder. you work that "60 minutes" interview, some of that was a little off. >> we don't want "60 minutes" here. stop bringing it up. >> craig, can i say something? >> of course. >> she addresses this. sandberg's message was to agree with ari and say the first thing we need are public policy changes. but secondary, you know, to her point, is that men and women need to change their behavior in case congress or the state governments don't do enough. so i think she says both rather than either/or, but ari is completely right. >> robert costa, characterize cpac for us in three words. go. >> i'll give you two, craig. today is about being brief. conservative woodstock. >> that's pretty good, robert costa. ari melber, perry bacon, and robert costa, thank you.

join me next saturday, 2:00 eastern and again on sunday, 3:00 eastern. we'll have the very 4rilatest political news, some analysis, and laugh and have a good time here. keep it right here. news updates throughout the evening and have yourselves a fantastic sunday night. you are -- you're a jerk. arrival. with hertz gold plus rewards, you skip the counters, the lines, and the paperwork. zap. it's our fastest and easiest way to get you into your car. it's just another way you'll be traveling at the speed of hertz. just begin with america's favorite soups. bring out chicken broccoli alfredo. or best-ever meatloaf. go to campbellskitchen.com for recipes, plus a valuable coupon. campbell's. it's amazing what soup can do.