and fabulous, and worthy of staunch defending. but for passing on some motherly advice to young women to find a nice boy who is worthy of their affection, this is leap too far. this is the radical insult to womanhood. oh, how feminism has fallen. okay. that does it for "the cycle." martin, it's all yours. thank you, s.e. good afternoon. it's tuesday april the 2nd. for the nra, happiness is a warm gun in every schoolhouse in america. >> a tough new stance on gun control from connecticut lawmakers. >> they're about to pass the nation's toughest gun control bill. >> selected and designated armed school personnel. >> we will fight and keep fighting for gun safety legislation. and i will fight for that legislation until i die. >> one district attorney says they are all under attack. >> both have been shot multiple times. shell casings scattered near the

victims. >> it is our brave law enforcement officers and first responders to find themselves on the wrong end of a gun barrel. >> the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. >> breaking news out of north korea. an announcement that it is stepping up the enrichment of uranium. >> the latest threat against south korea. >> as a new and frightening dimension. >> the target here reads, kill the united states. we begin with renewed efforts on gun reform coming from both sides of this contentious issue. the president is preparing to travel to colorado on wednesday and connecticut on monday to push for legislation including expanded background checks. as both states make real progress in stepping up gun

safety measures. and on the other hand, the national rifle association mounted their latest effort to further their now well-known narrative that everything but guns are the problem. in this case, new recommendations from the nra's school shield program and a pitch for the nra to train school personnel to carry firearms. yes, the head of the task force, former congressman asa hutchinson said today that a whole range of weaponry could be appropriate. >> everything from a side arm to shotgun to ar-15 in the car of a school officer. the presence of an armed security personnel in a school adds a layer of security and diminishes response time that is beneficial to the overall security. >> yes, you were hearing him then. their report emphasized that anyone carrying a firearm in a

school should undergo a thorough background check. despite the nra's clear opposition to expanded background checks in general. mark matioli, the father of a boy killed at newtown, was at the press conference, saying he supports solutions for safer schools. >> this is recommendations for solutions. real solutions that will make our kids safer. and that's what we need. >> now, making our kids safer is something that all of us can agree on, but while the nra maintains only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun, others are working to prevent the bad guy from getting a gun in the first place. at a press conference today, maryland congressman elijah cummings called for curbs on straw purchases and gun trafficking that allow criminals to get their hands on deadly weapons. >> the only two groups that should oppose this bill, criminals and people who want to buy guns for criminals.

>> so why is the nra circulating proposed revisions to legislation, watering down anti-trafficking measures? why are five senators vowing to filibuster any gun reforms at all? and why are republican lawmakers pushing back against broader background checks. why? >> we do need to strengthen the background check system, but universal background checks, i think, is a bridge too far for most of us. >> i'd vote against it. this idea of private individuals transferring their weapons and having to go through a background check makes no sense. >> well, something makes no sense. i want to bring in our guests now. milwaukee chief of police, edward flynn, joins us. and msnbc political analyst, professor michael eric dyson is here with me in new york. chief flynn, thank you, sir, for joining us. as a law enforcement professional charged with maintaining the peace of the nation, is it your view that more guns will lead to improved

law and order in this country? >> well, i read the nra's report, and it looks to me to be a cynical but clever diversion from the important discussion you alluded to in the introduction. you know, if we follow the logic of their report, it's a little bit like if the cdc was run by the nra, they would oppose flu vaccines in favor of building as many hospitals as possible. this is what this nra report does. it doesn't talk about costs, and it cynically expects local government to go to the department of homeland security for funding that quite simply does not the exist. >> but sir -- >> it's really, as i say, cynical diversion from the real issues. >> but sir, you lead the good guys with guns. is that all that's necessary for more people to have guns as the nra propose in order to resolve the issue of gun violence in this country? >> certainly not. i mean, police officers have a

very important role to play in schools and one of them is security as well as working with young students and getting them to the right start in life. let's just follow the logic here. there's 278 schools in milwaukee. i spend $2 million a year providing 28 officers to work with school security on school safety issues. now, if you do the math, we're talking $20 million for milwaukee to provide an armed police officer in every school. it's lunacy. we're not going to get a $20 million grant from homeland security. chicago isn't going to get a $200 million grant. this is a way of moving the discussion away from the important issue which is keeping firearms out of the hands of the dangerous and the criminal. and the nra's stated position is to oppose any attempt for us to close the gun show loophole and the private sale loophole. 9 92% of the guns seized from criminals in milwaukee were

bought legally under the current law. >> professor dyson, the nra keeps telling us that every aspekts aspek aspect of our life should be accompanied by a gun. the teacher should have a gun, the dentist should have a gun, presumably, the doctor. you're a sociologist. what does that tell you about our culture if every aspect of it should be soaked in firearms? >> it is an addiction to the fantasy that guns provide the fantasy of a security that can never be secured by the possession of a firearm because so many people in the possession of a firearm have died. and the people who are ostensibly committed to securing our children have sometimes made tragic mistakes with those firearms. the chief has been extraordinarily eloquent about this. nra stands for no reason allowed it seems to be, martin, because there's no rational process, as the chief has indicated here,

that leads from one premise to the next conclusion. i think the reality is that arming our teachers with guns, the zero tolerance policies in schools have already disproportionately disadvantaged black and latino students. what do you think would happen with guns in the possession of teachers and other people placed there? we know that the urban demographic would be targeted. though most of the shooting that's been done in terms of mass killings have come from broader mainstream communities. it doesn't add up and it doesn't address the situation on the ground. >> chief flynn, we've been watching the alarming case in texas as i'm sure you have, where we're learning a county d.a. was shot 20 times in his home. this was a guy who knew he was at risk, said he was carrying a gun to walk his dog, and yet the bad guy got him. does this not refute completely the theory a good man with a gun was the only answer, and that appears to be the only answer that the nra has. >> i think it's highly likely

whoever murdered him came by the gun through lawful processes and that's one of the great frustrations in law enforcement. we don't have time for ideology working the city streets. and our concern is right now that over 40% of firearms are bought without a background check. where do you think the mentally ill who are dangerous, the ones that are dangerous, where do you think they get their firearms? the criminals don't have to steal their firearms. they can buy them legally through private sales and gun shows. it's an awful problem for us. >> what's your reaction, what's your reaction, chief? chief, what's your reaction when senator lindsey graham says background checks were never passed? waste of time. >> first of all, we know one thing about congress, nobody there is going to get a profile in courage award any time soon. my frustration with congress is the following. it would be one thing if they were afraid to pass this law because they were doing important work, but they're not getting anything else done

either. this is a national problem. and only 1% of people are likely to fail their background checks anyway. this is not going to keep hands out of the hands of the law-abidi law-abiding. but it's absolute lunacy to continue the -- to continue the situation we have now where any criminal can buy a gun in this country, or anyone with delusions of grandeur and delusions of mass murder can buy a high capacity, high power firearm and commit murder. the murderer in newtown got off 150 rounds in 5 minutes. if there had been a police officer standing at the door, he may well have been dead in the first 30 seconds. we've got to prevent the wrong people from getting firearms and it's extremely frustrating for us in law enforcement to see the continued cowardace, dithering, to the firearms we're seeing in congress. >> we've gotten a picture of newtown shooter adam lanza.

a package of gun safety measures is on track to pass in connecticut this week. it bans high capacity clips, assault weapons, even forces some dangerous gun criminals to register. the nra's mr. hutchinson called it totally inadequate at protecting schools. is this something you'd like to see? >> i mean, obviously this kind of ban is extremely critical because it takes out of the hands, as the chief has indicated, of people who are out to do harm to our children and other members of our society. like law enforcement officials, the d.a. who was killed and others. and he was the second. so the reality is that as the chief has indicated, we're not going to stop law-abiding citizens from, you know, expertly and efficiently and safety and legally dispatching their desire to be a hunter. the reality is for those people, mentally ill on the one hand, and those who are criminally

inclined, those people will have a more severe test to meet. if we say we're committed to our children and concerned about their future, it makes sense to have these bans in place. the only reason it doesn't make sense is for those who have been captivated by the extraordinary blitzkrieg that the nra has done on politicians and as the chief has indicated, not only would they not get a profile in courage, they wouldn't even get a robert f. kennedy award. >> i'm reminded of george orwell in 1994 who said ignorance is strength. chief edward flynn, professor michael eric dyson. thank you both. next, the kingdom is beginning to terrify the world. stay with us. [ female announcer ] girls don't talk about pads, but they do talk about always infinity. [ woman ] i feel like i'm barely wearing anything! [ female announcer ] the only pad made from a revolutionary material. it absorbs up to 55% more. [ woman ] amazing. [ female announcer ] it's incredible protection, you'll barely feel it. always infinity. tell us what you think.

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there's increasing

apprehension over north korea. as that nation announced immediate plans to re-open a nuclear power plant that was moth balled several years ago. in 2008, north korea even destroyed one of the cooling towers at the yongbeyong complex as a gesture of goodwill toward international disarmament talks. today the situation is very different. talks have stalled and there's a lot more anxiety than goodwill. earlier today, united nations secretary general ban ki-moon, a south korean, himself, issued a plea to north korea saying the situation had already gone too far. and reminding that nation's secretive government that nuclear threats are not a game. moments from now, secretary of state john kerry will meet with the south creekorean foreign minister to discuss the process, as the united states sends a second destroyer into nearby waters. we're joined by p.j. crowley,

fo now a professor at george washington university. and here in new york, jonathan alter for "the bloomberg news." the nuclear plant that today announced its ground re-opening. what possible purpose would there be for reactivating that plant aside from developing a nuclear weapon? >> well, the other factor would be it's putting back on the table an operation for which it had been rewarded in the past. the moth balling, as you say, of yeongbeyong came as the united states under the bush administration took north korea off the terrorism list. so putting this plant back in play in the north korean psychology, you know, would be saying, well maybe they'll come back and offer something to turn it off again. i think we should be cautious about that. obviously former secretary of defense bob gates famously said we shouldn't buy the same horse more than once. >> indeed. john, is it possible that any of this nuclear weaponry could

escape from north korea, perhaps to iran? a recent piece in the "wall street journal" observed, and i'm quoting, "north korea has already demonstrated its willingness to engage in illicit nuclear proliferation by selling a nuclear reactor to syria. if the price is right, the north korea has every reason to make a deal." the story also mentions a report which based an iranian physicist at the february 12th nuclear test by north korea. should we be worried? i sense we should be. >> i think it's worrisome. it's important not to overreact to this. there are a lot of reasons why it would be really stupid for north korea to do this. they would be completely isolated in the world, an whatever few nations like china they have any kind of relations with, would end if they really got into proliferation business this way of sending material to iran. but edward j. epstein's point in

that piece was a provocative and interesting thing to think about. we've all looked at the iranian situation as such we would have warning when they would reach a level of enriched uranium that would pose an immediate threat. it takes four to six months for them to go the final step -- >> right. >> -- toward weaponizing their program. with the transfer of nuclear materials from north korea, there could be no warning. we could wake up one day and find that suddenly iran, they have nuclear weapons that they've gotten from north korea. so even though i don't think it's a likely possibility, it's certainly something that needs to be discussed. >> p.j., secretary of state kerry is speaking with the south korean foreign minister as i said in a matter of moments. here he is talking earlier about what the united states would like to on north korea. take a listen. >> we will con to do what is necessary to defend our nation and the region together with our al

allies, but our preference is not to brandish threats at each other. it is to get to the table and negotiate a peaceful resolution. >> p.j., he says the goal is a peaceful resolution in which north korea gives up its weapons program. but that's not going to happen. is it? because north korea, as it says, will neverive up its nuclear weapons. that's just not on the table. >> it is not on the table, martin. and i think north korea has looked at events in recent years around the world, and those regimes that have given up their nuclear program, the ultimate survival weapon, no longer exist. saddam hussein, hmoammar gadhaf are both gone. a fundamental problem for us is a deal on the table, normalized relations, international assistance, in return for giving up your nuclear weapons is not a deal that north korea is going to accept. for the time being, north korea needs to be contained, managed, work through the cycles of provocation and then eventually

i think centrifugal force will take care of its own and eventually north korea will implode from its own continue dictions. south korea, you have a new south korean president in place. you have a south korean policy that says if north korea takes a pot shot at us, we're going to fire back. in the last two or three years, you've had a sinking and shelling of an island. if you have exchange of fire with south korea and south korea pushes back on the new leader, that's a dynamic that could go in any direction. >> john, we learned the united states dispatched its second destroyer to the region in as many days. now we enter american air power in the form of b-2s, b-52s, and 26,000 soldiers in south korea. is this the administration offering a serious warning to kim jong-un? >> yeah, it's force projection in the region. this is what our military is for. for this kind of thing. to show that, you know, there are consequences to certain

behaviors in the world if you're disrupting world peace. >> yet, every day we've had an escalation in the rhetoric and actions from north korea. >> the really disturbing thing right now is that we're in unchartered waters with both leaders on the korean peninsula. we don't really know anything about how either one of them, since they're both new in power, will react to fast-moving and possibly very complicated events. and it's that uncertainty i think is unsettling policymakers right now. they're not on firm terrain in knowing how this might play out. >> let's hope it's a peaceful playout. p.j. crowley and jonathan alter, gentlemen, thank you so much. >> thanks, martin. >> thanks, martin zblmp. coming up, why do cads and scoundrels get so many second chances? stay with us. he has a great number of followers out there just like me. other little old ladies.

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today we learned disturbing new details in the murder of a texas district attorney. search warrants just released show mike mclelland was shot 20 times in his home this weekend. his wife, cynthia, was killed with just a single shot. their deaths come just two months after an assistant dvm a d.a. was shot to death in a parking lot near the courthouse. authorities have not named any suspects in this case, but federal sources tell nbc news possible theories include a white supremacist group, a drug cartel, or a lone gunman holding a deadly grudge. of course, we'll continue to follow this story and bring you new details as they break. stay with us. the day's top lines are coming up. [ kitt ] you know what's impressive?

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from an easter chocolate fix, and an april fool on fox, to ben carson's foot in mouth. here are today's top lines. spring break. >> i hope you all had a blessed easter. >> i'll meet you at the top of the coconut tree. >> chocolate bunnies and chocolate eggs and chocolate hams. >> okay. get off my lawn. i need a drink. >> you know what, he's been under a lot of stress lately. >> upset the daughters went on vacation, shawn? >> of course, we have to pay for the security which is the right thing to do. not one -- >> i'm sorry. >> he's went on two spring break vacations. >> that is insane. >> i'm glad i've been promoted to scientist in chief. given my grades in physics, i'm not sure it's deserving. >> house republicans have voted to repeal obama care 39 times. >> republican party's finished anyway. whether it's official or not. they're never going to win another election. >> one more and they get free

health care for life. just kidding. they get that now. >> seriously, that's illegal in egypt? because of insulting the president and islam for a ja jailable offense here? fox news go bye-bye. >> the announcement today on april 1st hosting the 8:00 p.m. show on the fox news channel would be -- >> caution. you're about to enter the no spin zone. >> that was their april 1st announcement. scott brown, news anchor. >> the joke's on us. >> i totally thought that was a real thing for a second. >> there's no freedom of speech for african-american conservatives in america. >> you mean, i created them. god created them. i'm not the creator. >> dr. ben carson put his size 12 foot in his mouth. >> a black president. a black governor. we have a supreme court justice. race is always an issue in our country, but i think quite frankly we're handling it. >> you're friends with o.j. simpson but you're calling dr. carson a monster. and you're friends with o.j.

>> we'll let mr. hannity figure out race relations in america. let's turn to a different kind of scandal and bring in ken vogel, chief investigative reporter at "politico." sabiis so breen sabrina. and lilly, co-founder of excel alliance. lily, mark sanford of south carolina is the latest episode of a scandal tarred american politician. he resigned his governorship as you know four years ago after turning the phrase hiking the appalachian trail into a sexual euphemism. today he's poised to win his party's nomination for his old congressional seat. how did he do it? mow how to they all do it? >> just as brands do it when they come out of a scandal, good pl and good brand management. eventually if you let the dust settle and come back around admitting to the fault, we're willing to accept it and forgive it. >> that seems unusual to me. because in europe we're much less forgiving.

i think it's one of the great characteristics of this nation that americans are willing to forgive. >> absolutely. if we look back at the history with bill clinton which is a very recent loud story in the media, he left office with a 65% approval rating. so obviously beyond his lapse and marital affair, his performance when it came to peace and prosperity and the economy of the nation outweighed the issue that we had behind closed doors. >> of course. you're referring there to monica lewinsky. sabrina, one of the things that may have helped mr. sanford is how quickly he confessed. he leaves on his trip june 18th. it's quickly discovered he's missing. six days later not only there a scandal, but also a public confession. how big a factor do you think that was? >> i think it's actually very important, and it's a theme that he's coming back to actually if you watch some of the political ads that are running right now in south carolina. you'll see that he looks, you know, squarely in the camera and says we all make mistakes and he's clearly asking for some

forgiveness from the voters of south carolina. i suspect that they are looking beyond this. as lily anna suggested, people do see extramarital affairs as a sin, if you will, but they also are extremely forgiving and they've come to sort of expect them of their lawmakers, sadly enough. >> gosh, that's rather depressing. ken, how does his image problem redound on a gop with its own image crisis? because, you know, here's a man who literally left office, didn't tell anyone where he'd gone. he was actually invested with the responsibilities that came with the position he held. and he was cheating on his wife. i mean, how does that work for the gop at the moment? >> well, first of all, i think he handled it initially rather poorly, because there was some cover-up with his people saying he was on the appalachian trail. of course, he quickly came around and confessed. i afrgree with sabrina, his ads have been effective and made the request for forgiveness the

centerpiece of his rollout. it puts gop in a tough position and something where they would probably prefer to have a candidate who's less well known, a blank slate, who would carry the district. it looks like he's going run the republican primary. he could be in a tough spot against elizabeth, the sister of the "comedy central" comedian, who is running okay in polls in a republican district and might force republicans to come do mark sanford's defense, and put them in a tough position. >> sabrina, last week sanford wanted to make the point no one knew his opponents' skeletons. why his opponent missed so many meetings as a council member. the attack backfired horribly. let me play you a portion of it. here it comes. >> i suspect she would criticize him for not attending 20% of the council meetings or 30% in some years. >> unfortunately, my wife has twice had cancer, and my absence is because i was home taking care of her largely.

doing what i should have been. people knew where i was. i did my job just the same. i -- i still fulfilled my role. >> sabrina, i was home taking care of her, largely doing what i should have been. people knew where i was. you can use faith and grace as a shield, but it's difficult to use as a sword, isn't it? >> i think this was an uncomfortable moment for anyone watching. if gaffes kept people out of office, certainly joe biden wouldn't be the president today. the bigger thing he is running as a businessman, champion as educational freedom, self term limited politician. those are things that are appealing even though he has these personal flaws which i don't think any of us on the panel today would disagree with. >> indeed. lily, stanford has two big 30-second videos appearing in the last month. there was his video talking about the god of second chances

which was great and one more recently featuring a sweet elderly lady who once taught sanford and speaks glowingly of him. there we are watching her. does that kind of an ad, you were talking about pr, worked when you cheated on your wife? you deploy an elderly lady to fend your greatness and goodness? >> what he's doing is emphasizing or trying to draw on the principles that are important to the values of the party. one thing is the conservative faith base that is going to remember the god of second chances and also having a testimonial. it goes back almost to basic marketing of reminding them of the things that are so important to the core of the values of the party and replaying them in a way he humanizes them through his story. >> okay, ken, final question to you. what do you think of recent polls that show this to be a very tight race? where would you hedge your bets at the moment? >> i mean, it's a very republican district, martin. and certainly almost any other

republican nominee, any republican were they to win the nomination today, would probably just crush any democratic nominee. >> exactly. >> sanford is a deeply, deeply flawed candidate, and he's done a really wonderful job of sort of reinventing himself and making a weakness into a strength. but that strength only goes for far, and in this district which is heavily evangelical, i think there are going to be voters who hold that against him or sit on their hands and not come out to vote for him who would have voted for any other republican candidate. >> i wanted to add to what ken is saying. i wouldn't be surprised if the poll numbers are slightly inflated. i do think considering the composition of the voters in south carolina, i'd be surprised there's quite so much enthusiasm for a man who does have this sordid past. >> sabrina, ken, lily. thank you all. coming up, hillary clinton set to share the stage with joe

biden. a preview of things to come? day with us. today they have the big easter egg roll, the easter egg hunt on the white house lawn in washington. and i don't know, i mean, first of all, it's the day after. and, you know, michelle obama is all about being healthy, so this year they hid only the egg whites. [ male announcer ] need help keeping your digestive balance in sync? try align. it's the number one ge recommended probiotic that helps maintain digestive balance. ♪ stay in the groove with align. ♪ need help keeping your digestive balance in sync? try align. it's a probiotic that fortifies your digestive system with healthy bacteria 24/7. because your insides set the tone. stay in the groove with align.

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outbreak of belligerence from north korea. >> reporter: there's no doubt the administration thinks this is incredibly serious. part of their strategy, martin, right now, is to reassure its allies in the region. secretary of state john kerry, as you just mentioned, will be traveling to seoul. in addition to that, the united states beefed up its presence in the area, just this afternoon announcing it has sent a second missile carrier to the region. so really trying to make a show of force alongside its alleys in the region. south korea and japan. the president has been in contact with the leaders in those countries as well. part of the administration strategy, martin, also involves reiterating the fact that north korea has used this type of bluster in the past. but i have been speaking to experts in the region who say this moment feels different in part because of who the leader of north korea is. kim jong-un, a young man, took over after his father died. and as one expert said to me, his father seemed to know where

the line was and didn't seem prepared to cross it. that is not the case with kim jong-un. he seems to be more unpredictable. that is part of why this current moment feels so unpredictable and dangerous. the united states watching this quite closely and taking this bluster from north korea quite seriously. martin? >> kristen, isn't it also the case we are dealing with two newly appointed leaders in both north korea and south korea? it's very hard to imagine how they're going to respond because we haven't seen them in these positions previously. >> reporter: right. that's a great point, actually. you're absolutely right. there is a new leader in south korea as well. and there is a sense that she will be more inclined to take action. she's preparing to do that. you see the united states making this show of force with south korea, beefing up its presence in the region. to make sure that this situation doesn't escalate beyond control. one of the this administration's largest concerns right now, martin, is there will be a

miscalculation on either side. that that could ultimately lead this situation to ratchet up a level and to really cause it to become a military conflict. of course, the united states doesn't want to see that. doesn't want this to happen. so they are trying to make sure it doesn't by both reassuring their alleys aallies and rampin their pressure in the region. >> kristen welker. next, hillary clinton steps back into the fray with whispers of 2016. stay with us. ♪ you know my heart burns for you... ♪ i'm up next, but now i'm singing the heartburn blues. hold on, prilosec isn't for fast relief. cue up alka-seltzer. it stops heartburn fast. ♪ oh what a relief it is!

i got to tell you, the -- you guys in the press are incorrigible and i was literally inaugurated four days ago and you're talking about elections four years from now. >> yeah. >> well, it is a bit difficult to avoid discussing hillary

clinton in 2016 when she keeps shows up at places with her possible primary and general election opponents. tonight, the former secretary of state and current vice president will both speak at a ceremony at the kennedy center honoring female leaders around the world. later this month, mrs. clinton is scheduled to appear with jeb bush in dallas at the dedication at the george w. bush presidential center. the day after both give separate speeches in the same city. joining us now is ryan grim, washington bureau chief for "the huffington post" and dana milbank, political columnist for the "washington post." welcome to you both. dana, i keep hearing people say if mrs. clinton wants it, it's hers. but isn't that what people were saying in 2008? >> yes. i was about to say exactly this time -- >> you were saying it. >> at exactly this time eight years ago, we were all saying it's hers to lose, nothing could happen. there was really nothing else on the horizon.

yes, there was this rookie senator named obama who had aspirations, but he didn't have the clinton machine behind him. so, you know what, whatever we say now people have to discount it greatly, but she is, again, in the very strong position and what she doesn't have working against her this time is that vote on the iraq war. that is not part of the dynamic now. she's very closely attached both to this popular president and to the even more popular previous president. >> of course. ryan, how do you rate mrs. clinton strictly as a campaigner? she's never really beaten a tough opponent. back in 2006, she spent the most money of any senate candidate that year to win re-election to a seat that was essentially gift wrapped for her. that left her with no fund-raising advantage over her opponents for the presidency two years later. >> right. the evidence so far is that she's a terrible campaigner. i mean, her presidential

campaign, you know -- >> you're not mincing words today, are you, ryan? >> i mean, maybe she'll proof that she's a better campaigner this time around, but you're right. so far she's done a really lousy job out on the campaign trail. what did she spend, $20 million to $25 million? out in iowa? you know, she does better over the course of her career when she's not in the spotlight as much. she was extremely popular as first lady. she's been extremely popular as secretary of state. and that, but when she's in the news every single day, there's something happens where she's less popular. so it would almost be best way for her to run her campaign in modern day would be to go to the convention, win it and then run the last two months up until election day. that's not possible. so she's going to have to, you know, she's going to have to show that, you know, she's become a better campaigner. it's going to be a, you know, multi-year process. >> but just to give her credit, ryan, you're saying that she's a

better practitioner than she is campaigner? >> i think that's -- i think that's correct. i think you're right. and that speaks well to her and maybe it speaks poorly about the american political system. >> exactly. why -- isn't that the very reason why people would want to elect someone? because she's very good when she's given a task. >> right. unless there's some connection between managing campaign and managing a large white house. she did well as secretary of state. so, you know, if that management experience does translate to being president, then you can expect her to be a good president. >> dana, can you please assure us that we will not suffer more talk of benghazi should she run? that's a serious question. >> it comp henetence and effectiveness were in fact a requirement for leadership, we'd have to dismiss most of the congress. >> this is true. this is true. >> i'm not sure that's going to be the guiding factor here. you know what, i'm sure the

republicans should they get the opportunity to run against her in the general election are going to throw bengha drzi at h. this will become an obscure issue at that point. nothing like what the iraq war was like during the primary campaign against obama. so certainly they'll throw that at her. they'll throw whitewater at her. heck, they'll throw hillary care at her. i agree with ryan to a point. she has been getting better along the way. so, yeah, she doesn't give a great speech, and maybe she doesn't press the flesh as well as some other candidates do. she's been at this a long time now. and if the voters don't consider her to be too old when she runs again, she may be at her best as a campaigner. >> okay. final question to you, ryan, what about her potential opponent, the vice president? very briefly, if you can. >> well, i mean, he's wanted to be president his entire life, and, you know, this is his shot to do it. you know, he happens to be up against, you know, this most formidable opponent. so i think he's going to run

regardless because he's going to think, why not? this is my last shot. >> indeed. ryan grim, dana milbank, as ever, thank you so much, gentlemen. >> thanks, martin. >> and we'll be right back to clear the air. [ male announcer ] why is kellogg's crunchy nut so delicious? because every flake is double-toasted... splashed with sweet honey... and covered in rich double-roasted peanuts. mmm. [ hero ] yummy. [ male announcer ] kellogg's crunchy nut. it's super delicious! [ girl ]rumental ]cer ] when i started playing soccer, i wasn't so good. [ barks ] so me and sadie started practicing. we practiced a lot. now i've got some moves! [ crowd cheering ] spin kick! whoo-hoo! [ giggling ] [ announcer ] we know how important your dog is to your whole family. so help keep him strong and healthy... with the total care nutrition in purina dog chow. because you're not just a family.

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hello? hello?! if your bank doesn't let you talk to a real person 24/7, you need an ally. hello? ally bank. your money needs an ally. time now to clear the air. and those 35 teachers accused in the atlanta's school cheating scandal have until the end of today to turn themselves in to the authorities. several teachers walked into the county jail as early as 6:00 a.m. this morning where they were fingerprinted, photographed and given the opportunity to post bail. and this will, of course, will include former school superintendent dr. beverly hall who was once garlanded with awards and half a million dollars for her apparent success but now faces up to 45 years in prison if she's found guilty. this is just latest in a series

of scandals that have occurred not just here but around the world where teachers were rewarded or penalized on the performance of their students. some in the profession say cheating was inevitable, that this is a perverse incentive. and that's why performance-related pay does not make sense when it's applied to testing. in fact, an academic paper published ten years ago predicted almost exactly what appears to have happened in atlanta. "as incentives for high test scores increase, unscrupulous teachers may be more likely to engage in a range of illicit activities. including changing student responses on answer sheets. providing correct answers to students obtaining copies, and obtaining copies of an exam illegitimatery prior to the test date. it's worth reflecting on the human consequences of cheating.

because until recently, all of those accused of cheating in atlanta appear to have won. test scores went up. teachers got paid more money. everyone was winning. like bernie madoff and his ponzi scheme. like lance armstrong who kept winning the tour de france because he kept using performance-enhancing drugs. for a while, everyone was winning. but how does winning really feel when you know that it's been stolen? that it's a fraud? you have to keep it a secret. you can't share the truth of what you've done. it isolates you. and then it dominates you. in order to sustain the deceit, lying becomes the central part of your life. so before we rush to condemn those teachers in atlanta, maybe there's a lesson in this for all of us. that winning by cheating is actually the quickest route to losing. and we should learn it well