may be tested. thanks so much for watching this afternoon. chris matthews and "hardball" is next. has gun safety lost? let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. let me start tonight with this. as is the entire answer to what happened in newtown, connecticut, going to be sorry about that, but we're not going to do anything about gun safety? nothing. wouldn't it have been smarter politics for the president to have gotten out front on gun safety right after the newtown horror? he knew what the problem was, what the solution had to be. the killer used an assault rifle. ban him. the killer used 30-round magazines. ban them. the killer was a nut. enforce background checks. why do we all need a study? why did the president think it was smart to use up time to give

the nra time? why didn't he strike while the iron was hot? why do i ask this all now? because right now looks very iffy that the congress is going to do anything. not a ban on assault rifles, not a ban on 30-round clips, not even tougher background checks. we all know why. it will take 60 votes in the senate to bring up a vote on gun safety. there's good reason to believe there aren't 60 votes to vote on gun safety. i ask, shouldn't the president have gotten out early and stayed out there until something got passed? let's get to it with former pennsylvania governor, ed rendell, u.s. congressman from maryland, elijah cummings. governor rendell, what do you think about all this time that's passed since newtown? who's been winning the fight? the nra or the gun safety folk? >> well, we were winning the fight for the first couple of months but the tide seems to have turned as the momentum was lost a little bit. i think, chris, the president's doing a pretty good job rekindling that momentum, and the key here, to me, still remains getting a vote on the floor. if we can get a vote on the

floor, we can win. i mean, you know, for example -- >> you know the numbers. it takes 60. 60 votes. >> right. >> in the senate. >> 6 o. we're going to be out on tuesday, mayor nutter and myself and gun control advocates. we're going to be out in front of senator toomey's office. we're going to ask toomey not to vote yes on any of these measures. we're going to say, the victims deserve a vote, senator. we're asking you to vote to end the filibuster. what's pat toomey going to do? if he's worried about the philadelphia suburbs for his re-election, he ought to vote to end the filibuster. there are republicans, congressmen, senators, all over the country who have to worry about that. and how can you tell the people of newtown or any other tragedy that they're not even going to get a vote? that's despicable. >> i get feeling he's involved in a same-sex political marriage with wayne lapierre. political marriage. i don't think he's going to -- i mean, i'm sorry, tick off wayne

lapierre. your thoughts, congressman, because i really worry now. i like at this 60 vote thing, this ultimatum for people like ted cruz down in texas. it's not going to hurt him. he could be mr. gun man down there. he could be jesse james in and texas is fine with him down there. 60 votes. you have to get all the democrats, five republicans and not loose any of the guys from out west in the democrat inbaert. >> chris, i do think it's going to be difficult, but i don't think it's impossible. i agree with governor. we need to get this to a vote. keep in mind the legislation that we have in the house on the house side, my bill, the gun trafficking bill, has bipartisan involvement. that's a good thing. and -- >> if they ever vote on it. mr. cummings, you know the business. it looks like the thsenate is n going to vote on anything on gun safety. it takes 60 votes. that means the house and boehner can hide like groundhogs. they don't have to come out

above the ground. they can hide down there and say the senate didn't vote, why should we? >> i think that would be a damn shame. as i said today at a press conference, we have a situation, if we cannot act now, chris, when we have 20 young children murdered, i mean, the question is, i think this needs to be a wake-up call. sandy hook should have been a wake-up call for all of us. for our society. we're going to allow this to happen. the thing that bothers me most is i know sandy hook presented to us what should have been a transformative moment. and if we fail, chris, it can only get worse. i hate to see what the new norm is with regard to gun safety. >> your gun trafficking provision was one that seemed like a given a month ago. now it's in peril. the "washington post" reported today "another provision that garnered bipartisan support, making gun trafficking a federal crime, could be gutted if republican lawmakers accept new

language being circulated by the national rifle association." after beaten back the prospects of an assault weapon back to zero, zero for a 30-round clip, zero of a ban on that, almost killed an idea of a stronger background checks, they're now going for their fourth target which we thought was untouchable which is you can't have secondhand sales to crooks basically and killers. where do you think you stand on that? what are your odds of getting a vote now? >> i still believe we'll get a vote on that. i got to tell you, the only people that should be against this is criminals and those who want to sell guns to criminals. and law enforcement is 100% behind it. the american people, most american people think we already have a gun trafficking law which we don't. and so hopefully -- i haven't given up, chris. and i refuse to give up because i believe that we have a duty to our children and to our society to do better. and i think we will. >> i agree. i'm with you, congressman.

let me go to governor. explain this to the people who don't really get states like pennsylvania. sort of a purple state. more of a democratic state when it comes to president. but it's purple. how can you have a 90% support for something like stronger background checks and have a guy like toomey, who is rational, he's a conservative guy, but he's rational. why would he rationally think, i got to worry more about 30%, 40% who are gun people, second amendment people, year round, rather than 90% of people who are part-time gun safety people? how about answering the question? >> yeah, but it's irrational because pat toomey is not going to lose that 30% to any democrat. he doesn't have to worry about that. most of that 30% believes in ba background checks. gosh, the nra for years stood with me and said we need tougher law enforcement. a gun trafficking bill is is tougher law enforcement. it's federal penalties for straw purchasers. it's exactly what wie need. where are they now?

they're frauds. pat toomey if he's smart, i still believe he is, chris, he's going to say, people of pennsylvania, people of nra, are for background checks. why would he take the risk? >> where's the club for growth? >> the club for growth is out of this issue. think it's out of this issue. >> let me go to something the public seems to agree on. mr. cummings, you've taken a moderate approach to this, center left, or centrist anyway. here's wayne lapierre's answer to school safety. here's what he said. unfortunately, for people who are for gun safety, this seems to getting more attention and support than the stuff the polls say should pass. >> the only way to stop a monster from killing our kids is to be personally involved and invested in a plan of absolute protection. the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.

i call on congress today to act immediately to appropriate whatever is necessary to put armed police officers in every single school in this nation. and to do it now. >> the nra today, asa hutchinson, echoed lapierre's argument is the only way to stop gun violence is with more guns. he announced an nra funded plan for, quote, school safety. here's asa hutchinson. >> we also have prepared for the first time that i'm aware of a model training program for selected and designated armed school personnel. now, this is probably the one item that catches everybody's attention. >> and it should. in the "washington post"/abc poll shows there is considerable support for armed guards in schools. this is one of those interesting polls. more typical of politics. 50% support armed guards in school. 48% oppose. plc

mr. cummings, what do you think an that? i drove by a local public school in d.c. this morning. there was a squad car poout. i understand why that squad car is parked there. is that a good thing or not, the police there good school time? >> i think putting more guns, putting guns in schools i don't think is necessarily a good idea. on the other hand, if local jurisdictions want to protect their children that way, fine. the question is, are we creating a false sense of security, number one? number two, who can afford it? i mean, we're cutting back on everything. we're even cutting back on teachers. >> what's wrong with a squad car, the cop, the policeman, he's inside, he's got his handgun, he may have more firepower in the car if something goes wrong? or better yet if a nut goes by, a bad guy goes by, he sees that car, i think i'll go somewhere else. why would have a guy go in there with a gun if he sees a policeman there with a gun? >> keep in mind, chris, you're talking about schools. we're having problems with gun

safety in shopping malls, movies, all sorts of places. like i said, if folk wanted to do that, fine. i don't want that to be a distraction because if that's going to resolve our issues. there are a lot more issues than that. and so hopefully, you know, they'll go forward with their plan, but i got to tell you, most jurisdictions probably won't be able to afford to have the guard anyway. >> well, greg sergeant of the "washington post" reports today that democrats hope to pressure senator john mccain into supporting expanded background checks and it turns out mccain did voice support for expanded background checks back when he ran in 2000. remember the moderate mccain running for president against w.? let's watch john mccain, the gun safety man. >> i'm john mccain, with some straight talk. convicted felons have been able to buy and sell thousands of guns at gun shows because of a loophole in the law. many were later used if crimes. that's wrong. >> governor, can we win this

fight with archaeology like that? digging up old tapes from the -- the sacred scrolls, if you will? >> but, you know, i think representative cummings hit on a very important point. we can't let that nra bill be a distraction. we can't let people say, well, i voted to do something about gun safety, i voted to make our schools safer. first of all, it doesn't work. in columbine, one of the worst tragedies in the history of this country, there was an armed guard on the school grounds. it didn't help a bit because those armed guards who carry pistols, maybe a glock, are going to be outgunned by these mad men all the time because we don't do anything about assault rifles or high capacity magazines. look, the fight isn't over. it isn't over. and we can win this if we can get it to the floor. we have to put their feet to the fire. we have to go to pat meehan, fitzpatrick, runyon -- >> if you get toomey tomorrow, we're going to ring that bell

for you, governor. if you get fpat toomey to turn out to cloture tomorrow, we'll announce it first thing. >> there are people like me all over the country. we're not giving up. we're not giving up. i know the representative is not giving up. we're going to force these guys to sign discharge positions, force these guys to vote against filibuster. i believe we still have a chance. >> just don't endorse him if he does do it, okay, governor? >> please don't. >> i don't think you'll do that no matter what he does. you'll hit him with the rubber hose before you'll do that. thank you. >> absolutely. >> thank you, governor rendell and congressman elijah cummings. i respect tremendously what you're trying to. coming up, should the president of the united states be out there? not bloomberg, not biden. libya was over there. newtown is here. no time to lead from behind. republicans from three states pushing bills to eliminate sex ed for teens. republicans are making it harder for some women to have abortion

in the united states, making it more likely for teens to get pregnant. what's causing the north korean leader to rattle his guns? finally, let me finish tonight with how the country needs a leader on gun safety. i'm on that rant tonight. this is "hardball." the place for politics. men are ? yeah? then how'd i get this... [ voice of dennis ] ...safe driving bonus check? every six months without an accident, allstate sends a check. silence. are you in good hands? a talking car. but i'll tell you what impresses me. a talking train. this ge locomotive can tell you exactly where it is, what it's carrying, while using less fuel. delivering whatever the world needs, when it needs it. ♪ after all, what's the point of talking if you don't have something important to say? ♪

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welcome back to "hardball." president obama won a resounding victory over mitt romney last november ushering in a second term with a promise was always there to tackle the issues important to the country. lately i keep feeling his absence. the president's absence. i don't see him demanding debate over the gun issue, don't see him on the front pages or leading the evening news. well, his lack of engagement certainly isn't helping that fight. stephanie cutter served in the obama white house and was the deputy campaign manager for his relations campaign. i told her a minute ago today, i think like a lot of people in the campaign did fantastic work. when you win, everybody did fantastic work. and sam stein is the political editor and white house correspondent. he is really tough. this guy is a solid, tough journalist. i don't think you lean forward enough but that's all right. let's talk about the president's role.

you and i can -- you're a publicity person. you understand communications. there are times when the president's on the front page. i was working for tipp for those years and would say i don't have to be on the front page every day. we know when you're there. lately, three or four months, the president has not been out there. bloomberg i bloomberg's been out there, biden's been out there. why hasn't the president been consistently charges since newtown on guns? >> chris, i think he has. >> out front. >> out front. you saw last thursday the event he did at the white house. >> every day i get up and read the papers. stephanie, i read the papers every day. >> we can't control what people put on their front pages. it did make some front pages last week. he's talked about gun safety and curbing gun violence since newtown tragedy. he's travel ing to colorado tomorrow, traveling to connecticut next week. >> why do i, who has an appetite for obama, who would like to see him out front being our nation's

leader, but the actual leader on big left/right fights like gun safety. as he calculated he is too left, he's not the right guy to do gun safety? biden is a better guy because he's a regular guy, a street guy, not a big liberal in his image. why did he put biden out front? >> i think he put biden out front in terms of coming up with o proposal so that in-depth look should have been done. >> sam, you didn't have to have an in-depth study to know the problem was assault weaponens. the guy used assault weapons to kill those kids. you didn't need an in-depth study to find out 30-round clips for a problem. you didn't have to go digging for a mon or two to find out we need better background checks when a nut was doing the shooting. everything was handed to him in the first headline of what to do. he comes back months later with exactly what he should have started with and common sense could have told him to do it. wayne lapierre racing money,

getting together, starting his storming of the castle. i'm beginning to think wayne lapierre has the upper hand here. it scares me the united states senate may not vote on this. >> one of the reasons they did this so study period was so they could get all the stakeholders on the same page. they knew they weren't going to get the nra. for instance, the sportsmen, hunters, the police. >> the educators. >> that contributed. they failed to take into account on the hill you have a totally different drama playing out in which a lot of republican members and conservative democratic members aren't listening to the polls. >> they don't want to vote on this. >> they don't want to vote on this. >> let me go back to you, stephanie. >> let me make one point to you about the sfrvice president. >> 60 votes. how are you going to get 60 votes? harry reid couldn't get 40 for the assault weapons ban. the new standard is 60. they're 20-some short on gun safety. >> number one, the vice president is out in front of

this because he actually authored the last crime bill that passed congress. >> the '60s. >> no, '94. i'm sire. >> come on. he has a lot of credibility on this and sway in the senate on getting this done. number two, they're not 20 votes short on the background check. every day there's somebody else coming out for a national background check. >> how many votes -- >> everybody wants a bipartisan deal. they're continuing to work on it. >> how many do they got? >> the truth is right now they're probably 60 votes short if you look -- >> 16 short? >> they're short of 60 votes. >> how short? >> they need about five more people. they're going to work with tom coburn. we have a story going up tonight, tom coburn has been made the linchpin. >> i don't think they'll have a vote. >> i think they'll have a vote. >> up and down vote -- >> a tape right now of what you said. you say there will be a vote, i say there won't. >> you'll look at the vote and say, is this an effectual bill? >> i think this is going downhill. >> if we don't have a vote, look

at who is not voting for cloture. >> that's the problem, because -- >> is some of this for 2014? is there a calculation, obama, on issues like immigration, where maybe he's better off by losing these votes because he builds steam in getting back the house in 2014? >> it's not about obama in 2014. mark bpryor was talking about hs opposition to the assault weapons ban. >> he told bloomberg to bug off, too. >> for him he feels he's better protected by being an antagonist of gun policy. in that case, the white house is cognizant if they touch this piece of legislation, it could very well -- >> i think that is strategic. >> they've let the senate basically handle it. the house has their own thing as well. they basically said, do you thing, we're not going to bug you, we'll have something there in case something blows up. >> they can get 60 on immigration, can't they?

>> i don't know. >> i think so. i think so. >> i'm more bullish on immigration. >> there's a lot of momentum behind immigration. >> sam said the president may have strategically decided it's better that rubio and lindsey graham and the inside guys -- chuck schumer is so smart -- they fig wrure out how to get t coalition. remember what reagan said, it's amazing how much you can get done if you don't care whose name on it. maybe this one time he'll get credit historically but not out front. >> i think the administration is working to come up with a bill. you know, he speaks about this publicly. >> he hasn't -- stephanie, stephanie, he hasn't introduced a bill. >> he has a framework that's been out there. >> is he out front or hoping the senator will do it? >> look, i hope we want a bipartisan bill in the senate so it gets done. however that gets done -- >> you're not answering my question. you think the president should lead on the issue or let the senate? >> i think the fact the president is not doing an event every day doesn't mean --

>> let's get back to our reporter. it's always good to concede when you're wrong. i think you're going to get immigration reform. not necessarily a really good bill that's going to work, by the way. when you make everybody happy, the farm owners get happy, business guys are happy, the labor unions go along with it. in the end is doesn't work. it's just another phony bill. we don't need more phony bills. >> i think the broader question you're getting at is one of legislative policy and how the obama administration is doing it in the second materiterm. the first term there was emphasis on the inside game, especially health care retform. they realized they can't push congress. especially the 60 vote flesh hold in t threshold in the senate. >> last question. do you think rubio is playing this thing straight or playing it at the last minute to pull out and say i'm the enemy of the immigration bill, therefore becoming the leader of the right and winning the nomination for president? what's his game? >> i don't have any inside track

to marco rubio. forgive me for saying this, but slightly responsible. if he cuts a backroom zedeal, h will get killed. get close to a deal, go out there and see if you if can sell it to the fringes of his party. >> can you win on the republican side being open to legalization from the undocumented? >> it's interesting because the proponents of reform are really bullish, not when marco rubio got out in front but convinced the sean hannitys of the world, maybe we need a pathway to citizenship. if the sean hannitys of the world continue to say it through this process and don't turn it, i think rubio can make it out of this alive. >> the sean hannity test. >> marco rubio cuts a deal without talking to them first, he gets killed. >> my brother was in the navy. post debate, take it to the guy who's the at least intelligent guy on the ship. say, do you understand this order? if he did, he said, post it. that's the sean hannity rule.

thank you, stephanie cutter, sam stein. up next, more trouble for the republican party's rebranding effort. this is "hardball." the place for politics. zap technology.

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from capital one and earn unlimited rewards. choose 2% cash back or double miles on every purchase every day. told you i'd get half. what's in your wallet? ha! back to "hardball." now to the sideshow. first up, jon stewart went after egypt's president mohamed morsi for his government's recent detention of a popular political comedian with his own television show. for stewart the attack hit a little close to home. let's listen. >> is there anything else he may have done here, perhaps concerning the president, himself? >> this show mocked him when he was rewarded an honorary degree in pakistan and also took aim at the president's less than fluent english. >> that was my entire career for eight years. do you have any idea?

that's all i did. >> love that first amendment. anyway, next, more trouble for the whole republican party re-branding effort. last month cpac delivered a pr nightmare when a panel that asked conservatives, are you sick and tired of being called a racist and you know you're not one, was interrupted by an audience member who had a rather sympathetic view of the whole slavery thing. this time coming from georgia. april, if you didn't know it, marks that state's official confederate heritage and history month. a press release from the georgia division of the sons of confederate veterans says its goal is to clear up misen misconceptions about the old south. "so much is portrayed by hollywood that georgia and the south were evil, when in reality the south was the most peaceful, rural and christian part of america before war and reconstruction destroyed the

pastoral way of life down there." a guy named ray mcberry, told the news site the reality of what slavery was really like has been distorted. "the way that the slavery was in the old south is not in keeping with the way it has been port y portrayed." all i can so is "gone with the wind" was the most beloved movie about the south and vastly pro southern. until "django" came along, they were nostalgic about the antebellum south. what is causing north korea to be the big noise? one radio host last week explained. gay marriage. >> i don't know if anybody's -- i know they're not, they're just not putting this together. you've got this happening over here and this happening over here. could the two be connected? could our slide in immorality be what is unleashing this mad man over here in asia to punish us?

>> could your words be connected to a brain? why hadn't you thought of that? somehow something this crazy guy, this right winger, dictator over north korea has something to do with gay marriage? i didn't see the connection. by the way, if the idea of blaming gays for an international crisis sparks deja vu with you, remember this episode a few days after the terror attacks of 2011. this is jerry fallwell and pat robertson, pointing their fingers at who they really thought deserved blame. let's watch them. >> i really believe that the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the aclu, people for the american way, all of them who tried to secularize america, i point the finger in their face and say, you helped this happen. >> i totally concur. >> wow, i totally concur. finally, here's a video you've got to see.

jay leno and jimmy fallon poked fun at the rumors in the papers about their late night shows. let's take a look. ♪ tonight, tonight ♪ who's going to host tonight ♪ is it jimmy or jay ♪ tonight, tonight, where will they tape tonight ♪ ♪ in new york, will it stay in l.a. ♪ ♪ tonight, tonight, my ratings were all right ♪ ♪ 20 years and i'm still in first place ♪ ♪ tonight, tonight ♪ who cares who hosts tonight ♪

>> i got to go, jay. >> do a good show. >> i will. and jay? >> yeah? >> thanks. >> makes me happy. makes me happy. two great guys. two very funny guys. up next, republicans aren't content with strict new laws against abortion. now they're after sex ed. they're going after sex ed. you're watching "hardball." the place for politics. switchgrass in argentina, change engineering in dubai, aluminum production in south africa, and the aerospace industry in the u.s.? at t. rowe price, we understand the connections of a complex, global economy. it's just one reason over 75% of our mutual funds beat their 10-year lipper average. t. rowe price. invest with confidence. request a prospectus or summary prospectus with investment information, risks, fees and expenses to read and consider carefully before investing.

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beating estimates. gm sale s roiz more than 6% thanks for demands of pickup trucks. factory orders up a stronger than expected 3% in february boosted by the aircraft industry. that's it from cnbc, first in business worldwide. now back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." some republican-led state legislatures have been pretty strict on abortion laws over the past several months. we've been covering that. now they're stepping up. gop lawmakers in texas, arkansas, north dakota. think of those states. texas, arkansas, north dakota, trying to restrict access to sex ed. sex education praograms, in particular those associated with planned parenthood. in north dakota, trying to block a $1.2 million federal grant that would provide sex ed counseling services to at-risk

teens. in arkansas lawmakers are considering a bill that would defund an hiv and std, sexually transmitted disease program, because planned parenthood administers. in texas republicans are proposing a bill that would stop planned parenthood from distributing sex ed materials from students. elizabeth nash tells the "huffington post," "for a couple years we've been dealing with attempts to defund planned parenthood but now we're seeing that potentially expand to these sex ed educational programs that give teens 9 information they need to prevent pregnancy." let me go to you, lauren. i do think women should get the first say on this to put it lightly. what do you think is going on with the old problem when men don't get pregnant, women do? women get pregnant when they want to get pregnant, they get pregnant when they don't want to get pregnant. sometimes when they don't want to get pregnant, they can live with that. sometime ths they get pregnant n

they don't want to, they're 15 years old. whatever the situation is, plan the parenthood plays the role of helping them deal with that, help them deal if it does happen or doesn't happen. they're there to make sure they make rational decision. why would any state legislature want to have them bug out at this point? >> because they don't back abortion and planned parenthood advocates abortion. that's why. in this case, in particular, however -- >> what do you mean advocates abortion? >> advocates it, means saying, here's a pamphlet, here's your choice. >> is that advocating it? >> it is making the information available. >> that's different. >> i don't know about that. i think if you are saying to someone, here is a choice and here is a choice, you're advocating both positions. >> you think they're handing them out like travel brochures? >> you don't know what they do. have you ever had an abortion? >> helping the person have the opportunity to make decisions is different than advocating. >> okay. if they're helping to make -- >> i thought they were distributing birth control device and birth control information so a young girl who

doesn't want to get pregnant won't. isn't that what they do? >> i think we were talking about sex education, right? >> sex education, avoiding getting pregnant. >> sex education is educating teens about, especially in this case, homeless kids, about what they can do and how they should do it. >> is it teaching them how to get pregnant or how not to get pregnant? >> i think it's teaching them how not to get pregnant, chris. >> you're on my page. >> absolutely, i think -- >> that's why they call it planned. >> it's planned parenthood. there's more to this than meets the eye. that's been the rub for a lot of conservatives, what you were just saying about the advocacy. whether or not there is true advoca advocacy. whether or not there is in the process of educating you about contraception, for example, that the abortion piece is a part of that. that's where all of this boils down. look, states can do what they want to do with respect to planned parent funding, particularly for status funding planned parenthood. where i have a problem in this

particular case is the not affording a homeless child, a child who's in the system, the state-run juvenile system, for example, to have access to information that could protect their lives, that could be beneficial to them in some way. you have it in parochial schools, sex education. you have it in public schools. sex education. >> what knowledge are they denying -- >> i'm not saying they are denying. what i'm saying, for hose who are tried to get at planned parenthood through cutting off funding of sex education programs, that opens a door i don't think we need to open up. there's one thing to say we don't like your promoting abortion, advocating abortion. there's something very different to say we don't want to inform a child who's on the street, living on street who doesn't have access to an educational facility. >> or to parents. >> or to parents. or to some structure. >> i want to get back to you, because you're a woman. a girl is 15 or 16 years old,

may not have good parents. >> or they're gone. >> she may think you only get pregnant 1 out of 100 times. she may have all kinds of ideas. is it better to have someone come in she can talk with, say, you know, the odds are pretty good at your age of having a baby if you have sex a lot. you're going to get a baby and that's going to happen. if you don't want a baby, don't act like you're the not going to get one because you're going to get one. >> i think republicans what they need to do is choose. they need to choose, is abortion more important or contraception more important to them as an issue, right? right now you can't have it vote bo both ways in this society. they're trying to have it both ways if this society. i'm not saying that -- i'm not stating a position either way, but i think that you have to understand from a political point of view -- >> and common sense, too. >> -- that you can. >> as a political party, i think that's a very good division there. as a political party, you have to be able to advocate, you know -- you can be still

pro-life, but advocate for responsible behavior, advocate for -- >> if you're pro-life, you would technically be for contraception. >> yeah. >> i'm wondering -- let's go back to the reboot. is republican party smart to have this once again -- but actually being known as the party that doesn't like sex ed? you think that's a healthy position to be in? >> i think all of this coming on the heels of the reboot, again, further exacerbates the problem. >> they didn't get the message. >> it makes people look mean spirited. republicans look mean spirited. you're taking something away from kids who are homeless. >> it seems like the scarlet letter to me. just seems like they're looking for somebody, whoa, look at her, she did it. >> if your problem is with planned parenthood, then make that the central argument. and why you have this issue of planned parenthood. don't nickel and dime, don't cut and slice two programs that have

nothing to do with abortion. >> in other words, they're really against planned parenthood because it's involved with abortion, not because it's involved with sex ed. >> you talked about the culture issue, you're losing on gay marriage, right? >> he's free at last here, by the way. >> free. that's right. you're out. >> it's all good. >> there is no -- >> you're on the same page. the republican party has to choose about being responsible, or be ignoring that and be antiabortion or something. >> bill clinton said it, right, safe, legal. >> i'm with him. i'm with hillary clinton. she said it, too. safe, legal, rare. thank you, lauren ashburn, a good moderate i think conservative. somewhere near the middle. thank you, michael steele. >> we'll never know. up next, why washington could be driving us into a bigger economic crisis than the one we just endured. former reagan budget director david stockman is coming here. coming to talk about lots here. this guy's got some radical

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we're back. david stockton, the great david stockton once served as ronald reagan's budget director. today he has harsh lessons to deliver to both democrats and republicans. in his big knew book "the great deformation: the corruption of capitalism in america" everyone from president franklin roosevelt to modern era lead rs like reagan, bush and obama are criticized heavily for helping direct the country's economy. looking at washington today, stockton sees a rogue central bank. too much wall street influence. and two political parties at a standstill. all this he arguing is leading to an even bigger fiscal crisis. we're dpoing to forget about the armageddon. this show is about the next couple weeks and months.

i'm not thinking a million years from now but i got to ask you about this. first of all, i think this whole fiscal cliff, this whole thing between the two parties is hopeless. why would a republican member of congress, why would they want to raise taxes so they get the joy of screwing people on medicare? that's -- why should a democrat screw the people who depend on him who are living on medicare and social security to get the rich to pay more taxes? neither one of these things seem to work for me politically. why is the president pushing it? >> well, i don't know. it's not going to happen. it's a problem of our divided government. >> would you vote for either one of these -- if you were a republican would you vote to raise taxes on your voters so you could screw the people who voted for the other side and make sure they never voted for you? would you do that? >> yes, i would. it's mandatory for public interest. but it's not going to happen now. you can't make giant mistakes because they're almost impossible to correct. that was the lesson in 1981 with that over the top tax bill. we spent a decade trying to --

>> reagan was wrong? >> he was wrong when we said we -- >> why at no tididn't you tell ? >> i told him that. >> you had to go to the wood shed and pretend he was right and you were wrong. >> we tried to do things that seemed reasonable but they didn't add up. when it was clear they weren't adding up by the summer of '81 he had to make a mid course correction. defense got totally out of control. the tax cut was a bidding war. >> i was there on the other side. i was right and you were wrong. at least publicly. was reagan there the whole time? >> yes. >> was he there the whole time? >> in the early '80s he obviously was. he had deep convictions. the tactics and the details -- >> he didn't suffer from alzheimer's before he left office? >> i do not think so at all. >> okay. >> but the lesson was don't make a giant mistake. here we are today with this huge deficit. we had an easy chance to do something on new year's day. i call it the new year's folly. >> when was this? >> this year. why didn't -- >> why didn't w. come in, a man

of limited ability and mentality show up in 2000. he gets in there by the supreme court. close election. fair enough. 50/50 vote. he got it. a coin toss would have been a better idea. he gets in there. we have a surplus thanks to bill clinton, right? he throws it away. >> because he got very bad advice by then the republican party was on this, you know, idea that -- >> i think george w. went in there because his old man tried to raise taxes. he was going to lower them, show he was better than his old man politically. >> you could get into all the psychology you want. but he had enormous number of republican advisers who said the tax cuts will stimulate the economy. frankly, greenspan was stimulating the economy with way too much money printing. >> okay. >> and we ended up where we were in 2007 and 2008. it is a huge disaster. now we're trying to solve the problem by doing more of the same. >> i think you're a free marketer. you're kind of an ayn rand kind of guy. >> no, no. >> you're close. here's my question. all movies we've seen, all the movies that have come out since

the big crash said we had to do something. hank paulson was a hero. he was a god. they bailed out the big rich banks. the big financial institutions. you say we didn't have to do that. >> yes. >> we should have left them sink or swim. explain. everybody watching this show wants to know why we spent all that federal money to bail out the rich guys. >> because i think it's a great urban legend. this meltdown was entirely in the vertical canyons of wall street. several of the investment banks which were not investment banks but glorified hedge funds had gone down. lehman had. bear had. there were two more. goldman and morgan stanley. aig was a holding company problem. insurance companies were -- >> why did they do it? why did the government get involved? >> because it was what i call in my book the blackberry panic. all the people under pallson running around looking in their blackberries what the stock prices were by the second. goldman was going down. morgan was going down. they grew up in the wall street bubble and couldn't imagine a world without goldman sachs.

>> is the republican party -- is your party run by the rich on wall street? >> look it, both parties -- >> i asked you a simple question. is your party run by the rich on wall street? >> the republican party is run by special interest groups and so is the democratic party. that's why the system is failing. >> different interest groups. thank you. the name of your book is -- a serious book. "the great deformation." david stockman. i'm going to get mr out of this guy off the show. when we return let me finish with how the country needs a leader on gun safety and a lot of other issues. we'll be right back. this is the place for politics. . but there are some things i've never seen before. this ge jet engine can understand 5,000 data samples per second. which is good for business. because planes use less fuel, spend less time on the ground and more time in the air. suddenly, faraway places don't seem so...far away. ♪

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let me finish tonight with this. i believe this is a presidentially led country. we elect the president to lead. when he does lead things can happen. when he doesn't things calm down. things stay the way they are. if you think our gun laws are good right now, that we're giving ourselves reasonable gun safety, don't worry, be happy. be glad things are calm. things are staying the way they are. because they are. do you hear me? nothing is going to change. the way things are headed right now the united states congress which represents the whole american people is not even going to vote on stronger background checks. something 9 out of 10 of us agree on. got it? nothing. nothing is going to get done. nothing is going to get even voted on. and this is a sad response, don't you think, to the horror of newtown? because nothing is worse to be ignored when you live, especially when you die. when lyndon jonden left washington in 1969 he said i want to live my last days where folks know when you're sick and care when you die. washington, can you hear me?

you care that all those kids died? do you