this morning my question. what does celtics legend bill russell think of baseball pioneer jackie robinson? plus, this week in voter suppression, the tar heel e dig, and march madness turns into april insanity. and first, a huge victory on the immigration issue comes in the form of a 10th grade english lesson. good morning. i'm melissa harris-perry. the associated press made news this week with a major

linguistic change to its style book. considered the industry standard for journalists. on tuesday the decision was made to banish the use of illegal when writing about, quote, people living in a country illegally. kathleen carol had this to say about the the change. the style book no longer sanctions the term illegal immigrant or the use of illegal to describe a person. instead it tells users that illegal should describe only an action, such as living in or going to a country illegally. i know that sounds like parsing a lot, but truly this move is no small thing, especially when it inspires this. >> to me it blows me away. that's how you describe somebody who comes here illegally. i don't understand why people are trying to carve up those words? the reason they say don't use

illegal alien, illegal immigrant, illegal anything. this is the way of doing some cheerleading. trying to push immigration reform in congress. the a.p. is pushing immigration reform in congress. i know conspiracy theorys are fun, but they are usually false. what the a.p.'s move reflects is a changing tide in the way journalists are thinking about immigration. now we have a long standing similar policy here at nbc news and msnbc which is to use the term undocumented immigrants or workers versus illegal immigrants or users. and that is that no person is illegal. it's not a term that can be conferred on the body. seeking sensible immigration reform policy, the associate press's move may lack the associated compromise or presidential bill signing, but make no mistake, this shift is essential. language matters.

when we frame ideas using certain words, those words convey meaning, intent, context. for example, "the new york times" recently led the obituary of a famed rocket scientist with this. she made a mean beef stroganoff, followed her husband from job to job and took eight years off of work to raise three children. all of that may be true. and a mean beef strganoff is a mean beef stroganoff, but she was a rocket scientist. and those words conveyed her career accomplishments was secondary to the personal ones. it's a mistake they could have avoided by consulting the a.p. style guide in the first place. the importance of language is nothing new. just ask the groups language has impacted in particular ways throughout history. as my colleague pointed out in a recent piece, language has vastly changed since the civil rights movement. the women's movement helped

change journalism standards to use the words miss, and gone is the narrow term homosexual as a descriptor for the lgbt community. when we apply the term illegal to a human being, we're saying their body can be just against the law just by being in a particular place. for example in the 1960s when four young men sat down at a lunch counter, they were denied service because they were not supposed to be in that place. they were illegal. but let's take it one step further. today the word immigrant in political discourse comes with the presumption that it refers exclusively to latinos. but the immigrant community includes individuals from

africa. there are more than 3 million black immigrants in the u.s. an estimated 400,000 are considered undocumented. so as we applaud the necessary and long overdue decision to drop the word illegal, now is the time for more change. let's expand our understanding even as we expand our vocabulary. at the table, joy reed, managing editor for the grio.com and jonathan rossa, an assistant professor of linguistics at the university of massachusetts. let me start with you. why does language matter? >> well, i think we have to talk about the situation on a couple of levels. first of all, it's important to remember the a.p. claimed this was accurate and neutral terminology. so no immigration case law.

no immigration lawyers. imgrant is defined in the nationalalty act as a person permitted for a permanent residence. so it's an oxymoron. it cannot exist. it's really important on a legal basis. it's not actually a legal term. so that's one thing. sill legality is not just mapped onto someone's immigration status. so we don't refer to people who have cancer as cancerous people. and so we have to remember that language does matter. p you look at people using bumper stickers that say illegal hunting permit, that's not just a metaphor. if you know how terrifying the raids are, literally people are being hunted.

>> right. and i know this is the moment when we get -- on the left, we got called political correctness police. we're saying language matters. but that able to frame something is all about language. is this person negro and therefore a place that is no place? or is this an african-american who has a space in time and history and culture. i think, i know we're going to get yelled at for being politically correct here. but it does seem like it matter. >> it does matter. illegal immigrant has been shortened to the majority of the legals. and because that slur has been thrown at people, illegals has become a definite slur. after a while there was a taint to it. we don't use homosexual. it has acquired a stigmatic

attitude. illegals is as much a slur as the "n" word that we call people of color. i think it's a good idea to walk away from anything that contains it. i don't think it's promoting immigration reform. it's promoting calling people human beings as opposed to attaching a slur to every group. it does, however, feel like maybe we're on a pathway towards it, right. as the language shifts, it's because we're recognizing that immigration reform is about human beings and families and woerkers, not about these illegals, these bodies we want to throw back over the borders. >> if anything, it shows we're on a path to recognizing the humanity of all people. one very important point that is often lost in the discussion only an immigration judge is authorized to determine whether

or not a person is in the country illegally. not a person, not a politician. no one has the right to make that distinction. and think about it. journalists, even writing about a serial killer or axe murder, we always say allege alleged. i also like to remind people when we use words like illegal, it's applied selectively. there are many people, not to single anyone out, kiefer sutherland, martha stewart, they all have criminal convictions. do we call them illegal? no. >> if someone steals your wallet, the stuff is illegal. if a person comes into this country and we associate illegal immigration with the farm production industry. does that mean the products of the labor illegal? are the employers illegal em employers in are you buying

illegal tomatoes? >> that's part of it. shifting this idea of where is the legal stan standard who is breaking the law here. >> that's right. it's very particular groups. it's stereotypes about language and race and the discussion is interesting. the issues are only a matter of political correctness when they don't apply to your and your family. >> that is so true. assuming someone's family is involved, then we need the make a change. the other piece that the a.p. was maintaining is this is accurate language to use. when conservative and political forces were advocating the use of this. so this operates as a flag of conservative ideology, similar the way undocumented operates as a flag of progressive ideology.

so for the a.p. to claim they're unbiased is baffling. >> stay right there. we'll stay on this issue and an expansion of the concept of immigrant all together. creating tens of thousands of new businesses, and we're just getting started. to grow or start your business visit thenewny.com ♪ the middle of this special moment and i need to run off to the bathroom. ♪ i'm fed up with always having to put my bladder's needs ahead of my daughter. ♪

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we're back talking about how the language of immigration can be problematic. so i want to expand on our idea of what even counts as an immigrant all together. joy, you and i were sitting on a panel yesterday in which you raised your hand and said, hey, i am a child of immigrants. >> i am a first generation

american. my father came from the congo. i would have never been born if they had not both immigrated to the country to go to the school. my father did not stay in the country. my father became a citizen. for us, immigration is my entire family. the only first generation americans are my generation of kids. all my uncles. most of my cousins were born in giana. we thought of immigration of what you do when you want to go to school in the u.s. most people would try to go to great britain, which is what she did initially. then a lot of them ended up here. most of my family is here. and there are a lot of instances of people who come as students and don't leave. there's a caribbean component, and they're significant, but they never get talked about. >> there's a way in which we frame immigration as the latino issue, so sense the 2012 election it's been okay. we see that latinos are a larger portion of the voting bloc.

now we have to get serious about immigration reform. it allows a bunch of immigrants to fly under the radar. but it also keeps us from building some coalitions that could exist between black and latino immigrants. and the fastest growing group of immigrants are asian. out west you see much more activism and visibility among the asian pacific islanders who are immigrants. latino is synonymous with immigrant. it's a very mixed bag. on one hand it has obvious benefits for the latino community in terms of our electoral power and representation, but there could be so much more. especially in this movement if we have everyone together as a coalition. most stereo types of what an immigrant looks like is wrong. talking about latinos, there was

a poll last year that said one out of three americans believe most hispanics are illegal immigrants. that is wildly wrong. >> and that perception ends up mattering. all immigrants are latino. and all latinos are illegal immigrants. >> and the latino community has felt this crisis acutely and in a terrible, terrible way because our public policies are enforcement policies are targeting latinos. so equating latino with immigrant is very intentional. this week a lawsuit was settled brought by 22 latino families who had been the victims of warrantless raids. armed agents surrounding and targeting latino neighborhoods, pre-dawn raids, breaking into people's homes. putting people in living rooms. interrogating them.

looking for undocumented immigrants. so there has been this particularly negative experience felt in the latino community. >> it allows for things like the sb 1070 and the entire capacity to profile is based on the way we use language to define what an immigrant is and what an immigrant body looks like. >> yeah. and one is the notion that immigration or illegal immigrant is a euphemism for latinos. it erases the history of immigration in the united states. any group being targeted at any moment in u.s. history has been called illegal. from the moment benjamin franklin was calling the germans stupid people. so that part of the history has been forgotten. but there's another component, which is the way we talk about latinos presume all of latino's

migration status is the same. but we have to remember. puerto ricans are born citizens of the united states. not by their own decision. in 1917 citizenship was imposed. >> but just second class citizenship. >> and then cubans. the cubans have never been called illegal. but also societal inclusion. they have access to right and resources. and we see that reflected in the political representation, labor. >> it's why marco rubio ends up as an odd poster boy for the gop. i don't mean that in a derogatory way. or poster man. for the gop immigration conversations because the cuban pathway is such a very different alleyway. >> it's kind of ironic. it's been about seven or eight u.s. senators in our history have been latino. >> it's so disproportional.

cubans, that's incredible. >> and they are illegal until they reach shore. they have a weird immigrant status. until they reach the land, they, too, would be classified as illegal immigrant. all the sudden we have a very religious connotation. in all the ways they were determined to be so deeply problematic. what happens when i say the word worker? wen we come back. my mother made the best toffee in the world. it's delicious. so now we've turned her toffee into a business. my goal was to take an idea and make it happen. i'm janet long and i formed my toffee company through legalzoom.

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it also has realistic measures for the number of guest workers needed to fuel the u.s. economy. the new bipartisan immigration bill will include a new visa for temporary year round low skilled foreign born workers. but the program will be capped at 200,000 per year and be subject to unemployment, job openings and employer demand, and not everyone is happy with the formula. five different contracting associations signed a statement this week that said a guest worker program that fails to provide a sufficient number of visas to meet market demand as the construction sector recovers will make it impossible to secure the border. translation, we need more of these workers. another critique of the agreement, concerns about how guest workers are treated once they arrive in the u.s. 15 walked off their job at mcdonald's on march 6th. they said they were subjected to

abuses like unpaid wages and retaliation. and while mcdonald's corporation ended if the relationship with that franchise, all 15 students plan to hold an international day of action on june 6th in their home countries. joining me from new orleans is the lead organizer for the natural guest worker alliance of the group helping to organize the strike. hi, jacob. nice to have you. >> thanks so much for having me on the show. zl we at nerd land were like, say what, as we were reading about this middle town pennsylvania mcdonald's. tell me how the abuses are related to this status. >> i think what happened in mcdonald's in pennsylvania really shows the risk of not having strong worker protections. those students were recruited from latin america and asia. they paid $3,000 to $4,000 each

to come to the united states on what they thought would be a cultural exchange visa. instead they found themselves captive workers, living in a labor camp and facing threats of deportation if they complained. those works went all the the way. they went on strike. they brought their complaints and over 100,000 signatures to the doorstep of the ceo donald thompson's house. now they're planning a global day of action to hold mcdonald's responsible. >> so i want to pull in ana here. but also how they're treated. this feels like maybe the place where labor and immigration may

be able to come to some level of gream. >> so i think the situation with the mcdonald's workers is really important. it shows we don't have immigration policy as everybody believes. we have a patchwork of policies that make no sense. these students came on a cultural exchange. no more cultural than working at a lousy job. there's truth to that. this is a program run by the state department. it has nothing to do with the department of labor. it doesn't have labor standards in it. it's just a cold war relic. it's part of the problem of the immigration program that we have. the programs are defined by workers come into the country in temporary status. not to do temporary jobs, but in temporary status. people are not contemporary. people have complete, full lives. so the worker complains, they

have a choice. of either going back home or becoming undocumented. those two conditions render these guest worker programs terrible. >> this is the thing. people do come and make lives. we were just looking at the number of people in the country in a status we call illegal or undocumented. 50% of them are people who have overstayed their visas. they initially cross the borders in a status of legal or undocumented. but they overstay so does that help to address that? >> well, thanks, melissa. for us the real bottom line on any guest worker program is there be strong, strong labor protections. and the labor protections really have to include protections from abusive employers who retaliate against workers when they blow the whistle on abuse.

it has to include the freedom to change employers. and it has to include strong protections for the u.s. workers. the w visa has some of those protections but it would do nothing to protect the other guest workers in our country. there's over a million guest workers who come to the u.s. every year and all guest workers need the protection. that includes j1. it includes h2b. >> and you know, jacob. as you are -- even as you're describing them and giving us the alphabet soup, it's

underlining the point that we have a patchwork system here. i have to take a break. then we'll talk about how the patchwork impacts families and what difference it makes when we bring up which kinds of works we want in this country. we'll be right back. with the spark miles card from capital one, bjorn earns unlimited rewards for his small business. take these bags to room 12 please. [ garth ] bjorn's small business earns double miles on every purchase every day. produce delivery. [ bjorn ] just put it on my spark card. [ garth ] why settle for less? ahh, oh! [ garth ] great businesses deserve unlimited rewards. here's your wake up call. [ male announcer ] get the spark business card from capital one and earn unlimited rewards. choose double miles or 2% cash back on every purchase every day. what's in your wallet? [ crows ] now where's the snooze button? she was a picky eater. well now i'm her dietitian and last year, she wasn't eating so well.

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she pretty much lives in her favorite princess dress. and she's not exactly tidy.

even if she gets a stain she'll wear it for a week straight. so i use tide to get out those week old stains and downy to get it fresh and soft. since i'm the one who has to do the laundry. i do what any expert dad would do. i let her play sheriff. i got 20 minutes to life. you are free to go. [ dad ] tide and downy. great on their own, even better together. jonathan. i want to ask you about something that florida governor jeb bush wrote on his blog. family members of existing immigrants account for a large majority of new lawful entries into our country, crowding out most other who is would contribute greatly to economic growth. it feels like there's a distinction between low skilled immigrants versus high skills. there's a way to pin all the

interests against each other. >> yeah, completely. it's a hierarchy of desirability. it falls in line with a long standing approach. we see it in any immigration reform. remember with the help of the construction of the transcontinental railroad. we get the chinese exclusion act of 1882. so we see a long history of ranking people. where the families should be ranked. defining certain forms of labor as skilled or unskilled. this is about immigration classeses and citizenship classes. even if you have citizenship, you can't leave it there. so it's not just a pathway to citizenship. we know they are full citizens legally but are not included in the society. but this is the politics of it. this hierarchy of desirability,

yeah. this is what you are battling out in the political realm. >> there is a question to try to make this points based. we would be rating them on the contributions to the economy. someone with more education with receive more points. that is what immigration systems around the world have become way to rate human beings. we want to bring them to our universities and keep the really smart ones. capital always seeks low price labor. we have a history of accelerated growth in the economy based on slavery followed by servitude. there is a time when the white alternative to slavery was servitude where you came to the country tied to one employer. that employer owned you.

now we want the labor. we just don't want to be responsible for your kids' education. >> so what we're trying to do is to separate people from their labor. we're trying to extract the labor without dealing with the full humanity. >> that's right. that's exactly what our members say when we ask them what is this condition that they're in. people will say again and again, this feels like servitude. we're bound to one employer. we can't face jobs. if we do we face all the harsh realities of enforcement. so you are really forced to choose between having no job or being in a situation where you are working without being paid overtime. without being paid minimum wage or becoming undoumed. facing arrest, deportation and even jail. >> and this fear is part of what then shapes the way that whole

communities respond to things like work issues and to criminal justice systems rein even to domestic violence. all of this is embedded in the human experience. it gets embedded in the culture. and i want to add the family visa system. to many people following immigration reform. maybe casually. the idea of allowing in more people who are highly skilled or have ph.d.s, that sounds like a good idea. but the number one problem with that is if we switch to that type of system, just think about it. all around the world in asia, in africa, certainly the middle east, huge parts of the caribbean, women do not have the same tuptds as men. we would be having a much more male based system if we switch over to emp fa sizing skills. and secondly that has never been what we're about. imgrants thrive on the network of cousins and extended family

and grandparents. marco rubio is the perform example of that. his father was a bartender. his mother worked as a hotel maid. they brought over his grandparents and uncles. that's why he may be a presidential contender. the family sets us apart, but it works. that's what this country is about. >> that's the immigrant dream. you can come with nothing and provide something for your children. that's what this is about. joy is staying with us for more. coming up later in the show, we're doing the scandal watch party. but before that my letter is next. and it's going to tennessee.

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law magers in tennessee are pushing a bill that would take money away from the state's poorest families if their children fail to make the grade in school. if students perform poorly or if the caretakers meet certain requirements, then the tenants payments would be reduced up to 30%. his aim is to help children use education to break the cycle of poverty. sounds nice in theory. that's not what the law does in practice. in my letter this week i would like to let the sponsors of this bill know what it is really about. dear stacey campfield. it's me, melissa. now you said that your bill is really not about placing the family burden on the shoulders of children but instead an incentive to hold parents

accountable. you would exempt parents to attend the parent teacher conferences or arrange tutoring or enroll their child in summer school. now certainly no one disagrees that every child deserves to have a parent who is an involved participant in his or her education. but your bill is only concerned with struggling kids whose parents are poor. senator campfield, you went so far to tell us that parents who allow their kids to fail in school are guilty of child abuse. those are strong words, senator. but i have to wonder if your passion far pa trenal involvement is as profound as your choice of words, why wouldn't you pursue legislation to penalize all parents of children with a poor academic record? how about a tax penalty who share their pa trenal responsibilities. bad di the doctor has to pay more on his tax bill. no, the fact is that your bill

is just about the latest in a well worn policy practice of subjecting the choices of poor parents. at the same time, those parents receiving cash assistance also must work or participate in work-related activities. and all of this while stretching $2,000 in maximum assets required to qualify. so prodding parents to get more involved is really a callous disregard for the fact that parental involvement while ideal is not a luxury all parents can afford. to be unable to afford child care and transportation and far from breaking the cycle of poverty, your legislation would only sink families further below

the line. a single mother with two children receives $185 a month in cash payments. your reduction would cut the payment to less than $130 a month. those coming from niece households like financial and health care instability. poor people don't hold a monopoly on bad parenting. nor is a poor child who struggles in school an indicator that they have a parent who don't care. even the most exceptional parents may not be enough to push them through the significant structural barriers imposed by a life in poverty. bad parenting is not a barrier to success for rich people.

it's your job to encourage achievement with policy that supports, not policy that shames. sincerely, melissa. ♪ [ male announcer ] book ahead and save up to 20 percent at doubletree.com, so you can sit back, relax and enjoy. doubletree by hilton. where the little things mean everything. woman: what do you mean, homeowners insurance doesn't cover floods? [ heart rate increases ] man: a few inches of water caused all this? [ heart rate increases ] woman #2: but i don't even live near the water. what you don't know about flood insurance may shock you -- including the fact that a preferred risk policy starts as low as $129 a year. for an agent, call the number that appears on your screen.

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here we go again. i keep hoping we can retire this brand but once again this weekend has warranted this weekend's voter suppression. this week in voter suppression, the tar heel edition because republican lawmakers in north carolina in the house and senate are pushing several bills to radically change the way people vote in the state. in north carolina lawmakers are proposing seven ways to restrict the right to vote. surprise, surprise, the changes would slash early voting days,

getting rid of same day registration, creating new restrictions on student voting and the trusty standby of voter i.d. bill is moving quickly from the state house of representatives. what's it's something to do with the state's evolving importance. joining me is arnie burman and heather mcgee. so, okay, whoa, north carolina. so walk me through a couple of them. talk to me about the felon piece. >> sure. well, they did seven different voting restrictions, as you mentioned. in north carolina, felons when they get out of jail get their voting rights back. now they have to weight five years, receive nans approval and have two people who can vouch for their good character. it was required of people back in the jim crowe area.

we're going to back to character tests, grandfather clauses, all the things that we thought we moved beyond are coming back to north carolina. >> and the other one, the mental incompetence one they introduced. >> they're saying anyone judged to be incompetent cannot cast a ballot. so it's a slippery slope. who is judged to be incompetent? why? we know mentally ill people have a constitutional right to vote. even if they have voting rights, north carolina is going to add new penalties to prevent them from casting a ballot. >> and one more. basically your students will lose a tax break if you vote. >> parent who is have a $2,500 tax credit for child dependency will lose the tax credit if their kids register to vote

where they go to school. they're saying no, you're going to be penalized financially for doing that. what we're saying to students is question don't want you to participate. >> because students tend to vote blue. seven in one week. not only do they win, right. no chapel hill in the ncaa brackets. but they win the voter suppression championship. but this in advance of the decision around section five feels like they're trying to shof in as quickly as they can. >> well, there's a larger context that we need to be aware of. this is a state where one billionaire has lost the state. there are a lot of websites about this. art pope exposed. he is someone who inherited his dollar's daddy stores. spent what for him was not a lot of money buying the state's

elections, and this is the first election cycle where we have had an art pope party. he has attacked every part of the state's social fiber. from the integrated schools which were a model for the nation in create creating middle class and income schools. he was part of stacking the school district to get that recalled. he is trying to push the idea that there should be a quadrupling of the state tax on groceries so they can afford to lower corporate and income tax on the wealthy. it's this incredible redistribution, an incredible attack on what makes a state great in north carolina, which had been really aggressive investing in the people and education and having good democracy. >> that's part of what distresses me. part of it is i went to college in north carolina, and i love

it. she was a democratic governor who despite the takeover of the folk she was vetoing and vetoing. now it looks like they can just run over the electorate. >> and the republicans haven't had this much control for 100 years. art pope is now deputy budget director for the new governor. that's like mitt romney appointing coke for the budget committee. he has funded all these campaigns. the legislators themselves are uncomfortable with what they're passing, they don't believe hay can win in 2014 or 2016. so let's prevent the constituencies that will be hurt by the laws, minorities, young people, the elderly, from being able to cast a ballot.

that was the first thing. let's jgerrymander the maps. >> so given that north carolina is at least for the moment still covered under section five, what protections are available? >> there are protections on section five. there is a clause that says all elections shall be free. and the requirement that people have to pay for an i.d. -- >> poll tax. >> exactly. it's a poll tax. they have to pay for an i.d. the republicans are saying, well, they have to swear that they have financial hardship. it's vague. it doesn't say what financial hardship is. i'm broke. i live paycheck to paycheck. i make a minimum wage. it's a day's wage for me to spend the money to get a new i.d., there's no standard.

it's really probably not going to be constitutional, we hope, under the state's own laws. >> but don't folk who is have signed this open themselves up to perjury. they are feeling again like the times you saw in ohio like voting may get you locked up. the central contention has been that the south has changed. you look at north carolina and virginia that just passed a strict voter i.d. law. hau can you conclude that the south is changing so rapidly that the bill is no longer needed when the very type of voting restrictions are being resurrected in different forms. >> it's not so much the south has changed but the north and midwest has caught on. thank you. and heather will come back next. we will keep our eyes on this

week in voter suppression. coming up next, the final four frenzy and why this time around she's got game. plus, one sports legend on the legacy of another. bill russell is going to talk with me live about jackie rob robins robinson. more nerd land at the top of the hour. from capital one, bjorn earns unlimited rewards for his small business. take these bags to room 12 please. [ garth ] bjorn's small business earns double miles on every purchase every day. produce delivery. [ bjorn ] just put it on my spark card. [ garth ] why settle for less? ahh, oh! [ garth ] great businesses deserve unlimited rewards. here's your wake up call. [ male announcer ] get the spark business card from capital one and earn unlimited rewards. choose double miles or 2% cash back on every purchase every day. what's in your wallet? [ crows ] now where's the snooze button?

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is often handed down from generation to generation because it offers a superior level of protection and because usaa's commitment to serve the military, veterans, and their families is without equal. begin your legacy. get an auto-insurance quote. usaa. we know what it means to serve. welcome back. i'm melissa harris-perry. six years ago almost to the date now former nbc host don imus referred to mostly african-american rutgers university basketball team as nappy headed hos. the team's long time coach just led them to a runner up finish in the ncaa tournament the day before and now this. she defended her girls in a 15-minute speech describing her

love for them. fast forward to this week and to this video. video of the rutgers men coach cursing them with homophobic slurs. this decision got him fired this wednesday after the tape was made public and the school's athletic director and assistant coach followed him out the door. and some faculty want the university's president gone, too. a leg break suffered by kevin ware in the game against duke. the inspiring win was then sullied when reports emerged special edition t-shirts that adidas made for the team were going on sale to the public,

profits going to adidas. the shirts have been discontinued due to a logo bill kevin ware, meanwhile, would have received zero of the sales. meanwhile, the amazing athletes on louisville's women team also made a final four with a tremendous, crazy, wild upset over the tournament favorite baylor. their game happened on the same day. how many of y'all saw it? the louisville men's game on cbs racked up a 9.4 overnight rating. the women eas game which ran on espn 2. that earned a 0.9 rating. let me propose this instead. let's take a closer look at women's basketball as a model for the ncaa. joining me here are espn columnist jamell hill. former university of south

carolina women's basketball coach susan and olympic gold medal swimmer donna, also live from my hometown. and we have the star forward guard honored as one of the five players. thank you so much for being here. is there anything to this idea of let's make the men's game look like the women's game? absolutely. it's one that's very exciting and more traditional. >> and not only what's happening on the court, right? which is one part of it. there's also the piece of when we look at them as student athletes, women in the ncaa, the tournament teams are graduating a much higher percentage of their students.

they have less of a racial gap between black and white women who are finishing and other students of color. >> well, they're not there in college with the entire mindset on becoming a professional. obviously you can play overseas. but clearly the monetary gain is not the same as it would be for men. when you look at young boys that play sports, the number one goal they have is i want to be an nfl player. i want to be an nba player. women understand that my professional time, my time as an athlete is very limited. i need to make the most of this education. men's college basketball at this point stinks. it stinks. we felt like the women's tournament would be better. i get the upsets are a big part of the game and i understand that.

we have much bigger stars in the women's game. she has lil wayne wearing her jersey. i'm saying this is where the star power is right now. and i think people need to recognize just the growth of the game overall and what these young women have to offer. >> now you are part of that star power in the women's gain right now. you also have a personal story where you made a lot of unconventional choices as a star athlet athlete. >> yes. i started off going to connecticut and chose to stay home with my family an move to delaware. i played volleyball for a year. and took a break from basketball. i ended up falling in love with

the sport. we were able to get that attention now. i want to talk to you about the love for the game. both the men and women's games is the sense that young people are playing a way that is different than professionals. it's starting to feel a little different for the men's game. is this where the real love for the game now exists? >> the women's game definitely has the passion behind it and the players just absolutely love the game. we love our teammates. we stay around our entire collegiate career. the men generally stay for a year and then head to the pros because they have the incentive of leaving for the money. i do think you see a bit more passionate play behind it.

we have beening to for so long. we've been playing for four years. it is a different feel when you watch the women versus the men. more of us need to be watching it. on the other hand. the fact that they don't have as much professional opportunities leaves us with the purity of the game itself. >> i think the american public loves pure sport. it's a question of marking and being center stage. espn is promoting more games. but if you look at outside the game. will is a final four for women. you don't read about it. you do read about the best player in the game, this is

great public tis but not great for the game. what is the role of the university for the student athlete? we have seen the abuses go on and on when coaches are protected because of the money on the other end. and the schools need the money. it never goes back to the athlete. our athletes do better outside the game. they don't see it as an end in the itself. they see it as a steppingstone to all kinds of profession. at least women still hold true more for women. i think part of it is when you look at men's coaches, often they are the highest paid person. and you know, part of the reason

we took the two rutgers examples next to each other, it's a little bit unfair. i'm sure there are mean abusive women coaches as well. but the fact that you can see the difference on the sense of comradery, part of it is because there's less profit. >> that should not be the focus. college sports have been extremely beneficial. if you look at four of five women that are in fortune 500 companies and senior executive positions competed in college athletics. but the responsibility of the university is to provide equal opportunity in education. and that's not happening necessarily. >> yeah, when we come back we're going to see more on this. i want to talk to you more about elena's story.

my niece who herself went onto play college basketball for a time. i will never forget the first time she saw a men's game and she said to us, boys play basketball, too? and i thought, yes, this is exactly what i want. more when we come back. new car! hey! [squeals] ♪ [ewh!] [baby crying] the great thing about a subaru is you don't have to put up with that new car smell for long. introducing the versatile, all-new subaru forester. love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. do we hano.a mower? a trimmer? no. we got nothing. we just bought our first house, we're on a budget. we're not ready for spring. well let's get you ready. very nice. you see these various colors. we got workshops every saturday.

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as we mentioned earlier, my guest delaware native was a star of a recrewing class copping out of high school this '08. and was offered a scholarship at the university of connecticut. but she couldn't stay away from home and returned after two days on campus. a big reason why is her closeness with her sister lizzie who as autism and cerebral palsy

and has been blind and deaf since birth. she went nearby to the university of delaware, where she embarked upon a historic four seasons, becoming the fifth leading scorer with 3,039 points. elena is squoining us from new orleans home of this year's women final four. so talk to me about that decision because it does feel to me like it was your choice of saying i am a student. i am an athlete. but i'm also a person. >> exactly. i think i chose to go to connecticut because it's basically a path that a lot of players have taken before me. and my family means so much to me. at that point in my life i wanted to be near my family while also exploring going to college, wokking on my academics

and also playing basketball. but i really just wanted to be around my family and do it my own way. that was really important to me. >> it feels like that is part of the story. they're kids. they're 18, 19, 20 years old. and a great profession for that and really terrific. and it's just a beautiful game to watch because of that. >> but it does go to the position you've been asking us to think about. the responsibility of universities. on the one hand, you have elena with the substance of character and presence of mind to make a decision that is good for her. isn't that part of what universities ought to be doing for all of our students? marly our student athletes is helping them to make those decisions? >> absolutely. whenny talk about elena making the decision, you can talk about

missy after the lix. she can't take the money. she wanted to be par of the experience. there's no value to put on education. and the networking around you with teammates to support you. now i'm in the old pioneer here. but i remember the the time in 1976 when basketball was first put in the olympics. abc was covering it. they thought this is really nice to cover the game against the soviet union. so they would cut away to the game and then another event and go back. >> it's basketball. you can't cut away. >> this is olympic medal. but the good thing is the american public called. it still took a long time until 1996. they helped fueled or jump start

the wnba. the thing that constitutes the success for the game is the more it comes up with the game. you wrote this week saying the whole idea of the nba or men's sports as the standard is itself problematic. it turns into a conversation about what women don't have, what women are not doing. let's just say women's basketball. it has experienced a tremendous amount of growth. i couldn't even match all the games being on television and espn has made a complete and serious investment for all the games and what they have done. they are just still a little bit past infancy, if you will.

and the men are jealous. they really swept this country in 1999. i remember i was chairman with the great team and the press said, oh, you're going to go to the big stadiums. nobody is going to be there. and they've been the model sport for women. >> this is an interesting point. i want to ask you, what women do have as tennessee opportunity in basketball on the back end of ncaas typically european play or overseas play. typically to this stay in delaware. it's great to have the opportunity for overseas play. what about wanting to stay in the country and near your support networks? >> we can play in that season over the summer. but basically you do go overseas

to play the rest of is season. so i'm not sure yet what i'm going to do. i'm going to see what offers i have. most people just accept it and do it. you know. i haven't decided yet what i'm going to do. i'm did he feel going to play from the wnba. then from there i'm going to see. not just the men's game nncaa men's bracket. >> he did. he did. he did. he did. >> he picked baylor. >> good, good. we are getting there. thank you to elena in new

orleans. i'm trying to get down there as quickly as possible. i'm so excited we are hosting the women's final four here. janelle is going to stick around. we have got a scandal watch party coming up. but first, when we come back, basketball legend bill russell is going to talk about the baseball lenld jackie robinson. we're all set to bundle your home and auto insurance together. i'll just press this, and you'll save on both. [bell dings] ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, llllet's get ready to bundlllllle... [ holding final syllable ] oh, yeah, sorry! let's get ready to bundle and save. now, that's progressive. oh, i think i broke my spleen!

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42, the story of an american legend opens on april 12th. it's a new film telling to story of how jackie robinson not only broke the color barrier with the brooklyn dodgers in 1947, but went onto hall of fame career once he got there. breaking the color barrier meant he was subjected to death threats, taunts and jeers, even while playing. here's a scene from 42 depicting a moment when the dodgers cap

pan demonstrated to the hecklers and to the family that he was indie part of the team. >> thank you. >> what are you thanking me for? >> i've got family up there from louisville. i need them to know what i am. >> number one, you playing ball or socializing? >> playing ball. >> play ball. >> playing ball. maybe tomorrow we'll all wear 42. that way they won't tell us apart. >> and that tomorrow is in fact today in major league baseball because they will all wear 42 jackie's honor again on april 15th, the anniversary of his debut.

janelle hill is still with me at the table and the legendary bill russell, winner of 11 championship rings with the boston celtics. the first african-american head coach in the nba. it's lovely to have you with us, mr. russell. >> thank you. >> now sometimes all we know about mr. robinson is that he was the first. >> i'm sorry. i couldn't hear you. >> what else do we need to know about jackie robinson? >> well, he's highly intelligent. and he was one of the few guys in the major leagues. and in the armed services he was a captain in the u.s. army. i was about 13, i think, when he broke into the may jr. leagues, and he was a real hero to all of

us. we recognized that he a man that played baseball. i had a good fortune of meeting him early in my professional careers. that was one of the few times i could harly speak i was so overcome with the honor of spending half a day with him. because when i was a kid, he was the hero. he conducts himself as a professional. >> mr. russell -- >> yes? >> so you just said that he was a hero to you. but i understand that mrs. robinson said that you were actually jackie's favorite. >> well, after jackie died rachel and called and said i would like for you to be a pal bearer. i was really surprised and said of course.

i would be honored to do that. i asked her why. she said you were his favorite athlete. and i was overwhelmed like that. and jackie was the first. and when i started my professional career i was not going to revisit from "a" to "b." i was going to go from "b" to "c." that's why i was determined to go further in babble than he did in baseball. one of my high school teammates was the first black manager in baseball, frankie robinson. and we were both determined to take what jackie laid out for

us. to proceed with it. one of the greatest honors i ever had was to be at his funeral because i had so much respect and regard for him. >> i want to bring in my other guest here, mr. russell. it feels to me like the language that mr. russell was using. that he was a gentleman. that he was stoic. that he was intelligent. that was critically important to him being the first. it's part of why he was the first. any historian or baseball will tell you that by no means was he the best player that he could find. he did have the qualities that allowed him the resiliency to withstand what he knew. so you have to have somebody with a mental resolve day in and

day out, much like mr. russell had playing with the celtics to understand the pressure of integration and the pressure of racism. >> it's also interesting about mr. obama, first lady obama, recently screened 42 at the white house and came away quite moved and feeling like rachel robinson, jackie robinson's widow was a model even for her. does that tell us something about what the president may be encountering? >> yeah, i think so. we've hard the cliche many times. behind every great man is a great woman. i've had the pleasure to interview rachel robinson as well. as a report r in the business, you're usually not star struck by athletes. that was one. but to see a torch pass from her and maybe coretta scott king.

and now we have the first lady of the united states? it's incredible right there. what should young people take away from jackie robinson's story today? it was not so much the struggle as ambition. and jackie was very much into that. she was at the jackie robinson foundation. and they have provided thousands of scholarships for kids to get into college because it's very

porn. one of the phrases i like to use is that it is far more important to understand than to be understood. and so with an education, you take up and understand what the situation is. so you don't have to combat it. jackie was -- like i said the role model for kids of my age. that was 100 years ago. to know that the door is open. how to walk through it. i want to tell you how over the moon i have been since you agreed to join us and talk about jackie -- as rachel calls him jack robinson here. also thank you to jamell hill

with me. stay with us. st scandal watch party is coming. kerry washington if you're out there, get on your twitter. we're going to talk about you. [ male announcer ] pearls. hairbands. and now hot pink toes. seems tough for a tough dog like duke. but when it has to do with gwen, he's putty in her hands. for a love this strong, duke's family only feeds him iams. compared to other leading brands, it has 50% more animal protein... ...to help keep his body as strong as a love that can endure any fashion trend. iams. keep love strong. now you can keep love fun with new shakeables meaty treats. bjorn earns unlimited rewards for his small business. take these bags to room 12 please. [ garth ] bjorn's small business earns double miles on every purchase every day. produce delivery. [ bjorn ] just put it on my spark card. [ garth ] why settle for less? ahh, oh! [ garth ] great businesses deserve unlimited rewards. here's your wake up call. [ male announcer ] get the spark business card from capital one and earn unlimited rewards. choose double miles

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bob will retire when he's 153, which would be fine if bob were a vampire. but he's not. ♪ he's an architect with two kids and a mortgage. luckily, he found someone who gave him a fresh perspective on his portfolio. and with some planning and effort, hopefully bob can retire at a more appropriate age.

it's not rocket science. it's just common sense. from td ameritrade. picture the scene. a governor telling his staff he's going on an appalachian hiking trip. cut to the airplane. we see the governor getting out of his car. in the backseat we see his hiking gear left behind. flash to the governor giving the ticket agent his destination. surprise, it's not the appalachian trail. it's argentina. now flash to the governor in a romantic rendezvous with a mysterious woman. flash, the governor getting busted by a reporter. flash, the governor admitting to lying about his whereabouting and being unfaithful to his wife. sounds like a setup out of the show "scandal", that is if it weren't the real life beginning to a story still unfolding. there was disgraced former south

carolina governor mark sanford on tuesday. his mistress turned fiance by his side accepting the nomination for a seat in congress. next month he will vie for the south carolina house seat that he used to hold in the general election against democrat elizabeth colbert-busch. but the primary victory that set him up for a comeback was made possible by the scandal that tainted his political career. during the primaries he cast himself as a central character of a morality play. voters should not be focused on mark sanford's betrayal of his marriage vows. rather they should focus on his betrayal of the public trust. while sanford was off chasing love in argentina, he abandoned his post as south carolina's chief executive for four days. he was part of the largest ethics fine in south carolina history for letting taxpayers

foot the bill. given all of that, the victories in next month's election would make the truth almost as strange as scandal fiction. up next, why nothing is strange about scandal success. we are all about olivia pope. how would she fix it? when we come back. i've always had to keep my eye on her... but, i didn't always watch out for myself. with so much noise about health care... i tuned it all out. with unitedhealthcare, i get information that matters... my individual health profile. not random statistics. they even reward me for addressing my health risks.

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we're putting the wonder back into air travel, one innovation at a time. the new american is arriving. everybody break out your red wine and white hats. for one hour on thursday nights the world stops. for me and the legion of scandal fans as we immerse ourself in the world of professional problem solveer olivia pope. she's an imperfect woman with perfect style, and she also happens to be the first african-american female lead character on a network drama to captivate the american viewing audiences since theresa graves premiered in 1974. with me are a few of my fellow fanatics.

joining them is the associate editor at racaliscious.com. >> right on. [ laughter ] okay. so listen. we had kerry washington on just moments before scandal launched in part because i suspected this was going to be a big deal moment. why do you love it? what do you love about scandal? >> scandal is a mess of a show. which is why i love it. it's kerry washington being an imperfect black woman and in a culture where we are demanding to be perfect at all times. a good example would be the first lady. whenever she's doing anything she's too this. she's too that. she's not enough of this. her politics are not right. they're this. and for one hour we're allowed to walk into a world that is

powerful and wonderful and amazing and have very problematic things going on in her life. >> she can clean up a crime scene in a white dress. but then she's a complete mess in a lot of other ways. >> i think it's called scandal. did we really expect a moral representation on television? when i think of story telling, right, we have to allow our characters to have their own dreams, desires and flaws. she is fully in grasp of the lip quiver. what is that? how can she do that? >> exactly. and she's the center of every room that she's in. and she is -- she is not supposed to be perfection or this heroine.

she's supposed to be. >> i want to play you just a couple of my favorite scandal moments and get you both to respond. this feels like it happened so often. particularly to black women in power. they walk in to fix, she and her associate who works for her, who is a young woman, and then this happens. >> hi. you must be olivia pope. >> i'm olivia pope. >> just that moment. you must be olivia pope. >> no, no, no. over here. >> i can totally relate to that. when i did my interview with to get into college, the woman who came to interview me sat in a restaurant next to me, literally next to me for almost 30 minutes. i said, i'm just going to sit here until that lady figures out that i'm the person she's here to interview for this ivy league college. we all understand the idea that

you condition be the person that i've heard about. it has to be your white colleague. so it has the little moments. it's a great part of reality tv. you have the black women always throwing shoes at each other, cat fighting. the long suffering mom and wife and all the burdens on her back and she's super strong and she never breaks down. she has all kinds of problems. the romantic problem is ridiculous. how do you even like this man? the president of the united states is a fool. >> he is horrible! >> yes. >> you almost want to scream. it's sort of what you do with your girlfriends in a bad relationship. what is wrong with you? you can also relate to the things you deal with in real life. >> a moment for me, of course, we're talking about a black woman. but race is sometimes incidental. but there is a great moment when she's having an affair with the

president. that's not really a spoiler alert at this point. and they have a fight at one point where she says this. >> sometimes i have no words. >> we are together. that's all that matters. st thomas jefferson about all of this. that was an exquisite moment in prime time television. they take my thinking tank off. but it's true. when we -- it was so great that she put that moment in there "a", that we just said it. of course that's the sub text. you have the white president who has all the power in the world. there are always power dynamics going on in any relationship. specifically when he's married. so she's a mistress.

this is the stereo type that he is playing with. and then what comes back is the amazing scene in the garden. she says i feel owned by you. i feel control by you. he said you own me. you control me. i'm basically a slif to you and our love. and there are homes that the only happen because it's shanda's show. this is another one that only black women can write for each other. >> it's our second date. >> we live together. i've watched you pressed your hair. this is not our second date. >> i have watched you press your hair. in that moment it conveys all the intimacy in the world.

oh, he watched her press her hair. oh, they're tight. >> or they should have been tight. and you're talking someone who shaves her hair. but at the same time, that's how i express intimasbintimacy with partners. i shaved your hair at one point. no, we're not anymore. that's what she was saying in that scene. yes, you have seen this but i'm still not in love with you. that doesn't mean i'm still beholden to you as your lover. i love you. thank you so fumuch for the goo times and great relationship. >> my favorite couple on the show is cyrus and james. cyrus is the gay republican chief of staff. >> the dick cheney. >> he is the dick cheney. and yet the fact that they are the same-sex couple is not ever

really the point. >> we're talking about a really bizarre world. two people who have done everything for the president. that is clearly only in hollywo hollywood. i don't know if you guys remember this, but this is sort of like a pet issue for us. we are trying to get into the conversation a job program, and this is where the worlds collide for me. in his big state of the union, this republican president put out a public jobs program for you. i was like, that is only in hollywood. >> the choice of it are all very interesting along the lines. it wouldn't be in any way to barack obama and these choices they need to make it republican.

>> she said it. she said she wouldn't have wanted to play the role had the president been black. both because she would not have wanted to have this idea that somehow she and president obama were in a scandalous relationship. right? >> right. i feel the same thing. she wouldn't have done the show if it weren't for shanda rimes. i watched her since princess diaries 2. and the fact that she created two hit shows. in a sense, it's not just olivia pope. it's also shanda rimes. it's so powerful to me. >> i am so appreciative i don't know. i could lose my job after this. it's not on an nbc network. i needed a moment with some red wine and my girlfriends. i just appreciate her. so thanks to my lady panel joy, heather, janet.

when we come back we're talking about our foot soldiers. cheers, everybody. do we have a mower? no. a trimmer? no. we got nothing. we just bought our first house, we're on a budget. we're not ready for spring. well let's get you ready. very nice. you see these various colors. we got workshops every saturday. yes, maybe a little bit over here. this spring, take on more lawn for less. not bad for our first spring. more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot. black friday is back but not for long. right now get bonnie 4 and 5 inch herbs and vegetables, 5 for $10. ♪ the middle of this special moment and i need to run off to the bathroom. ♪ i'm fed up with always having to put my bladder's needs ahead of my daughter. ♪ so today, i'm finally talking to my doctor

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our foot soldier this week, dr. malcolm woodland, is a clinical psychologist who hails from the washington, d.c., area known as ward 8. a community plagued by health concerns and abysmally low school graduation rates and one of the highest unemployment rates in the nation. for the past 15 years, dr. malcolm has been researching ways to positively impact his neighborhood, and he decided to empower young men through the art of medicine. in part because he knows that these statistics are horrifying. less than 3% of practicing doctors in the united states are black men. and less than half of a percent of students entering the nation's medical school in 2012

were black men. according to the justice department, for every black male physician, there are about 50 african-american men incarcerated at the federal, state, or local level. to change these trends and his community, malcolm founded young doctors d.c., assembling a team of doctors and teachers to work with him for five months with these -- with five ninth grade students chosen after a rigorous application process. starting in early july, these five young men will live on howard university's campus and take classes taught by doctoral students in the department of psychology. they'll also get a chance to shadow university doctors as they make their rounds. one the school year gints again, the young men will continue their training on weekends. this program lasts for all four years of high school with the young men returning to howard university each and every summer. in addition, young doctors d.c.

provides the participating students with a stipend as many of them would otherwise be working to help bring in income for their families. malcolm sees the participants of young doctors d.c. as ambassadors who will continue to come back into the community and to hold health fairs and provide medical possibilities for the people with whom they live. under the supervision of his team, the boys will provide free blood pressure readings as well as information on avoiding diabetes and a host of preventable illnesses. as a resident of ward 8, malcolm is familiar with concerns in the neighborhood buts he's also familiar with its strengths. he sees each block as a makeshift family, and he's counting on the young men he teaches to come back home and help care for those families. for caring about a community's health and by empowering its youth, dr. malcolm woodland is our foot soldier of the week, and to find out more about him and about young doctors d.c., check out our page at

mhpshow.com. and that is our show for today. thanks to you at home for watching. i'm going to see you again tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m. eastern. we're going to be getting into the latest on the atlanta cheating scandal and put the very idea of testing to the test. right now it's time for a preview of weekends with alex witt. >> hello to you. i think that's a conversation that might need a little more of that red wine you have poured. you can save some for me, my friend. serious thoughts. we're having new there's from north korea. will kim jong-un be forced to take military action just to save face. that oil spill in arkansas, it's no longer leaking but might it have an impact on whether the keystone pipeline gets the go-ahead. and comedian lizz winstead talks about her unique use of twitter. and one of the most appalling effects of the sequester next. i? yes! one phillips' colon health probiotic cap each day helps defend against these digestive issues... with three strains of good bacteria. [ phillips' lady ] live the regular life. phillips'.

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