an express cardmember you can expect some help. but what you might not expect, is you can get all this with a prepaid card. spends like cash. feels like membership. good morning. i hope you have been checking in this week as we launch may new program on msnbc week nature at 8:00. i'm leaving "up ""in good hands. steve kornacki will be the new host next saturday, april 13. i will definitely be watching and you should, too. the staff and i selected some of our favorite "up" moments. in february of last year as the uprising in syria was intensifying the possibility of an all-out civil war seemed to be growing portion more real by the day. we asked should the united states intervene and if so how.

today the violence in syria continues. natu with the death toll mounting the questions we wrestle with in this discussion are even more urgent today. right now joining me today we have ann marie slaughter, professor of politics at princeton university. author of "between two worlds escape from tyranny growing up in the shadow of saddam." her father served as saddam's personal pilot. elise jordan returning to the program. former communications director in the bush security council. for the first time my friend and colleague jaeremy cahill. he just got back from reporting in yemen and has the cover story on the something scene's current issue. you definitely want to check that out. let's start with syria. continuing to endure shelling by

president assad's regime. close to 200 people have been kill in just the last two days. satellite picture if friday of homes where the syrian military had been shelling pipeline has exploded. this week the united nations issued a report saying syrian president assad must be held accountable for massacring his own people. and some of the stuff documented the report is just appalling. torturing children to mass executions. the report coincided with a ming in tunisia where hillary clinton said it could topple assad. president obama was asked about the situation in syria. >> we are going to continue to keep the pressure up and look for every tool available to prevent the slaughter of innocents in syria. it is for we not be bystanders during these extraordinary events. >> still the international community seems to be at a loss over what to do next. one of our panelists has a suggestion. ann marie slaughter wrote an

op-ed on thursday, how to fault butchering in syria. she writes -- simply arming the opposition in many ways the easiest option would bring about exactly the scenario of the world she feared most. roxy war that would spill over along sectarian lines. there is an alternative. friends of syria some 70 countries scheduled to meet in tunis today should establish no kill zones now to protect all syrians regardless of create ethnicity or political allegiance. ann marie, maybe we should start on this idea for, first of all dash article in "the new york times" today about the sort of complexities you are quoted in. essentially it is a long article. it has the -- one byline and reported by 15 other people that says that basically what a -- total mess, what a complete -- amount of 10 and con mikt and conflagration that can be

unleashed here. particularly compared to libya which was less strategically -- less approximate to the powder kegs of the middle eastern region. i want to ask you what i thought was a contradiction in that op-ed. you say up top, don't -- arming the rebels which, again, is -- john mccain and lindsey graham if figure -- all you have is a hammer and looks like a mail, every time something happens, they want to bomb it or send arms to the rebels. her saying send arms to the rebels. if you paragraph down and talk about creating this no-kill zone, it sounds like what you are say week should get arms to the rebels. i'm confused what is the -- what's the path forward? >> i am saying you should get some arms to some rebels. the difference is if you -- if you simply arm the rebels full stop, you are -- really turn when was a political opposition against the government into a

sectarian civil war. what i'm saying won't save homes because i'm talking about creating no-kill zones near the borders in cities that aren't outer loop under attack. and -- to do that, you would have to have some arms but many fewer because those are cities that are currently under attack. that those zones would a, protect those cities but could also gradually spread and that they would be zones where there is in revenge killings. so this is -- good refugees en. >> i no. er in not. i doubt very many people can get the to them but they are at least protecting those places that are not now under attack in many place they are places where the opposition already controls much of the territory. but one of the key things is within those zones, there is month killing revenge killing, or the government's killing. part of what you are doing is letting the minorities know it is possible to have a majority -- have the opposition in power and not have revenge

kill. >> you about -- you know, one -- i read your op-ed. one of the issues i have when you use the phrase opposition is there is not any one single group. in of those groups are fighting each other. the painful reality is as horrifying as the images are we are seeing come out of syria and the incredible brutality of the regime that this is a civil war. and the united states getting involved in any way in the civil war, i think returns us to a very, very dangerous precedent. yes, you watch this and want to do something about it because it is horrifying to watch human suffering. but we immediate less u.s. military involvement in the middle east, you know, entirely and the other thing is -- >> no, i know you are not. but -- but what you are proposing with the no kill zones would eventually necessitate some military presence. no fly zones are not just simply no fly zones. they turned into regime change in libya and the fact is that the u.s. is dangerously coming back to a period where regime change is the name of the game. it is a slippery slope.

from when you -- >> let's imagine right now that he uses chemical weapons and wipes out a city like this. are we going to do nothing? really? nothing? >> are all sorts of indications will's no intent on the part of the assad government to use chemical weapons. >> of course not because then we would come in. >> this is a proxy war. you have russia, china, i'm ran on one side. the united states and britain on the other side. >> no. that's what -- >> you are proposing putting in a force -- >> involve i have already on the ground. >> of course. they are both proxy forces for the u.s. at this point p. >> that's ridiculous. >> they did it in libya. >> can i ask this? >> you are absolutely -- this is exactly what assad wanted. you had people demonstrating for ten months, peace reply in these cities. not sectarian. demonstrating against a regime that started when he was torturing kids for -- complaining. this is the same kind of protest

we saw in tunis and egypt. we saw it in libya. he said these are terrorists. he started firing gradually, soldiers defected and started protecting the protesters. and, of course, if you -- that's what he wants. he says this is a sectarian civil war. you are playing exactly into this. i'm saying there are demonstrations all over syria. >> civil war. >> yes, i'm denying it. >> there's armed -- >> will is -- >> it has become a civil war. >> it is becoming a civil war. you still have soldiers defecting the try to protect innocent protesters. that's what this is. >> so you have soldiers defecting and at the same time have you the army shooting at the very soldiers. >> let me just -- let me just leave it -- so folks are -- >> that's a civil war. >> lay the groundwork of how this escalation is happening. it did start with their there are children that -- teenagers that wrote -- people didn't have to follow the regime. the phrase that had sort of resonated throughout the region and were detained and tortured.

that started the first real kind of bout of uprising and looked like the arab spring. tremendous violence repression. it led to arming on the part of the dissidents and protesters. that's now spread into something that -- this question is at the core of what american policy is going forward. i want to bring you in because -- last time when you were here at the table and talking -- we were talking about libya. you are someone -- iraqi and you both sort of have seen the arab spring unfold and also the organization you work for is largely about the -- sort of violence and destruction. upon women. you are disposed to be skeptical of military solutions. i'm curious what you make of the syrian situation from that perch. >> i would argue that it is an extension of the arab spring. it is the arab spring. part of it. the fact the arabs and sunnis makes it more complex just like in iraq.

>> it is an offshoot of the shiite sect. a minority sect within the country of syria. >> associated with shias somehow not exclusively. it does bring more complexities to the situation. brings a civil war element of it. in iraq, i think that -- the idea this we are all iraqis never stopped existing. i think -- i would argue that the -- idea that everyone is a syrian and is against an oppressive regime is not -- definitely is highlight. the banner where everyone is demonstrating. that's one thing. i tend to agree that america should just leave it alone and i don't think that's your argument. >> no, i don't. i'm not. >> i do think that america should leave this alone. it is a very, very complex but i do agree that turkey's intervention, qatar's other arab neighbor and in a way that's

protecting the civilian population. >> let me clarify one thing. one thing this i -- i appreciate your passion on this. i do think you are operating from a position of sincerity and concern and i am, too. what i'm saying. i think that -- what there is no room for in the discourse is being against the assad regime and slaughter that's taking place there. i have been very clear on this. that's a murderous, brutal regime. you also can be very concerned about the potential for blowback and instability and increase in instability and violence caused by outside intervention. >> what about this -- >> are you opposed to the idea that the turks would enable the free syrian army on their border to establish a safe zone? >> who is the free syrian army? >> soldiers that have defected -- >> because they will not -- okay. improper posing -- >> you don't know they are. yet, you are say week -- >> i'm just say -- are you really opposed given what's

happening the turks originally said -- >> the answer is yes. >> establish their own buffer zone but they cross the border that's war with turkey. you are saying it is not okay if they armed people that defected from an army because they won't with fire on their own people to establish -- >> you are oversimplifying who the free syrian army are. look what happened. you were supportive of intervention in libya. >> i was. >> look what happened to libya. >> i think it is better than qaddafi. >> wait. i'm sorry to cut you off. i want to continue that this. let's take a break and come back. [ jackie ] it's just so frustrating... ♪ the middle of this special moment and i need to run off to the bathroom. ♪ i'm fed up with always having to put my bladder's needs ahead of my daughter. ♪ so today, i'm finally talking to my doctor about overactive bladder symptoms. [ female announcer ] know that gotta go feeling? ask your doctor about prescription toviaz.

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we are in the midst of a discussion about syria. i'm glad we are having this discussion. i think the -- we played a clip from president obama about we can't just be bystanders. that was the tag line. that gets the central core issue

here. core argument about american foreign policy and american -- vision of america within i would say broadly the center left in the post iraq era and one that extends back from the balkans and place you have been reporting. which is about what that phrase means on the ground. right? and the -- efficacy of using the implements of violence when we are talking about arms. that's what we are talking about. and as a -- as a means to protecting civilians to humanitarian intervention. elise, you are someone that is -- was in the bush administration and -- and i'm curious what you make of that, someone that's not necessarily within this sort of center left coalition of this but how you see it. >> i'm just very cautious about ever advocating for this because we are not necessarily that great at it. with syria, i think that there still are a lot of diplomatic measures we can use such as the opposition as to do a better job of telling them you will have a place in post-assad syria and telling the military yes, you

are going to have a place if you defect and also i think the business community in syria that, hey, this -- you know, you are going to be opened up to a world, this going to be a positive for you, getting them behind this. >> i want to ask you about yemen since we are in the region anyway. you just got back from there. there's some similarity insofar as, again, it is a nonviolent revolt against the regime. brutally repressed and shot down in the streets. they began to arm and became then a violent essentially -- the presidential palace was shelled. right? and -- how has it played out after that? i think at the point the presidential palace was shelled and the president came to the u.s. if i'm not mistaken for medical treatment, the story dropped off the map. some some ways it bears analogies to what's happening in syria. i'm curious to what's happening there now. >> none of these done trees are identical in the way that this sort of uprising in the arab world has taken place. yemen just had a transition of

power to -- actually one of the vice presidents, they had an election where only one person was on the ballot and you can either vote yes or no. i guess if you want to say that that's -- i remember that und under -- name and address, your children's name. look, i think part of the problem -- similarity with yemen is more bahrain. the united states has more military interest in bahrain that have guided the policy. the fleet is base willed and i think the u.s. took a very different position on bahrain than did it on other countries because of u.s. military interests. in yemen, u.s. counterterrorism officials said for a long time that the premier counter thrift threat or premier terrorist threat to the united states egr states was very slow to call for the departure. the obama administration did say he needed to step down.

but while the brutality was being unleash order the protesters, let's remember, the military is back funded and armed and trained about i the united states. particularly the guard forces and counterterrorism forces. at a time when the bureautality was being unleashed on nonviolent protesters, u.s. officials were saying our relationship with yemen has never been better and last september. when the counterterrorism units started turning on their own people the ones funded and trained by the u.s., obama administration smartly pulled out those trainers. but the reality is that u.s. counterterrorism's obsession with yemen trumped concern for human rights. and it is -- >> if you go back you will see pretty soon after the demonstrations started diplomatically secretary clinton started calling for a change and ultimately -- the united states was actively working with other countries to get him out of

power and in the end, we brokered a deal with egypt to get get him out. >> actually the fact is while he's not the president of yemen, his nephew is the head of the counter terrorism unit. vice president is now the president. and the -- he said very clearly the vice president who is now president, said clearly the counterterrorism relationship with the u.s. will continue. if you look at u.s. military funding of yemen -- dramatically more than any civilian funding on the ground. usa fund sing a tiny portion of the military funding the u.s. gives to yemen. >> a debate about the left? >> no. it is not -- well, yes. >> are you saying -- are you saying we should -- that's a good thing? >> i'm saying -- month, i'm saying the united states has become so obsessed with aqap, a group of maybe 700 to a thousand -- >> al qaeda/arabian peninsula. >> and completely showered counter trurm funding on solid

regime, that money has been takeen and turned on its own people. the u.s. was complicit in the violent crackdown of the regime against the protesters because did it not cut him off when he started to be brutal. it continued. >> that's not true. we helped get him out. you are absolutely right. there is a debate constantly. >> do you want a cookie for that? they were supporting him at that time height of his brutality. >> it is a pact that america supports it. >> absolutely. >> a fact that america contributes and military support to the middle east more than -- above and beyond anything else. unless there is a shift in america support of them -- engagement in the middle east, shift money from the military to development creating jobs, that's what it is all about. i don't see how it is -- i mean, agree with you. america always supported the middle east. the engagement in syria is -- very complex one. there's -- sunni shiah in it, hezbollah in it.

there is iraq. america has to show support but nothing engagement. >> you are watching "the best of up." there is more right after this. we've all had those moments. when you lost the thing you can't believe you lost. when what you just bought, just broke. or when you have a little trouble a long way from home... as an american express cardmember you can expect some help. but what you might not expect, is you can get all this with a prepaid card. spends like cash. feels like membership.

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republicans in the house of representatives and democrats in the senate release their competing proposals last month for the 2014 federal budget. we wanted to highlight a third plan, one that presented a much more robust, progressive vision for government. they wanted to demonstrate visually in a way that demonstrates what we strive to do on this program, just how distorted washington's idea of compromise has become. here is how we did it. this week republicans and democrats in congress released competing proposals for the fiscal year 2014's federal budget. headlines about would plans in particular. one released by republican congressman paul ryan and another released by senator patty murray, chair of the senate budget committee. the ryan budge set like previous it rations of the particular

product, conservative wish list. turned medicare into a voucher program and make medicaid a block program. the murray budget by contrast is a much more cautious proposal. one to one ratio of spending cuts and new tax revenue. with the coverage focusing on these plans, there is a third proposal, one that constitutes a much stronger liberal weight to the unbending conservatism of the ryan budget. that is the budget propose bid the congressional progressive caucus which would add $2 trillion in new spending to create jobs and pay for it by raising taxes on the wealthy and corporations. the entire discussion about budgeting has been anchored on the right by all the attention the ryan budget has gotten. even though it is billed it is a dem contractic alternative this is for, murray budget is in some ways closer to the ryan plan when you take the progressive proposal into account. check this out. the ryan budget would cut nondefense discretion airin funding, education transportation and social services by 16% over ten years according to the citizens for tax justice. at the other end of the

spectrum, progressive caucus budget which would increase that spending by nearly 28%. you may expect that murray's center left democratic budget would fall somewhere around halfway between the two where you would see the red line or slightly towards the progressive end of the spectrum. look at where it falls. murray budget, which cuts a little less than 1% of nondefense discretionary funding, falls not halfway but closer to the rye plan. same true of other mandatory spending which includes aid for the poor and unemployed. ryan plan would cut those programs by 16%, progressive's budget would increase spending by nearly 44%. where is the murray plan? >> murray budge quote increase that spending by just 1.5%. again, much closer do the ryan end of the spectrum. ryan budge quote add no new revenues while the progressive would increase by 14%. murray plan. increase in revenue by just 2.3% which falls closer to the ryan end of the scale. speci thank you for making that graph work. i want to set that up because it

seems to me that the -- what's been most plus traiting with the budget conversation since 2010 is the way the conversation has been anchored and i thought that was -- this is nothing against patty murray who i think is quite good senator and murray budge set not a bad document. it is to show what the parameters of the debate are right now and in which the ryan budget is a full day story. granted that's the house majority caucus and paul ryan was a -- vp candidate and keith ellison was not on the ticket. the congressional progressive caucus simply does not have the same power in the house that the tea party caucus has. they are in the minority. at the same time, it does seem to me like there are a real actual cost. cost in terms of what kind of budget we are going to get because the center of gravity is so far over towards the ryan budget and, in fact, when the ryan budget came out and then i will shut up, when the ryan budget came out there was sense in which it was he's doubling down and ignoring the election results. he is not -- they are going to

repeal the affordable care act. from his perspective doubling down and keeping things anchored there is probably a pretty successful strategy in terms of dragging over the kind of median line we drew there on the graph. >> well, it is strange. i mean, because -- what strikes me, though about this go-around -- first off, the -- real problem starts with this notion of deficit and debt hysteria which i think is something that goes across the political spectrum far too much than it should in washington. and i think part of that is because that's what's the establishment in many respects has decided is the -- primary problem as opposed to ongoing lack of employment in this country. that's still the crisis we are dealing with. yet, for a long time, the story has been the debt and deficit. part of the responsibility for that, obviously, not all of it, really is the president's because for an extended period in 2010, 2011, we heard the same sort of silly rhetoric about the

family has to tighten their belt and government has to, too. no economist believes is the prescription. >> not no economist. if it were the case -- >> well, mine this is a wide agreement we need some type of stimulus here on get out of this mo morass. more attention is being paid to the cpc's budget. this year than in the past. nobody talked about the people's budget last year as far as i can tell. >> right. >> i wanted to say someone did a google search of the ryan budget after it was released 52,000 hits. someone did -- same person did the google search of the back-to-work and it had seven hits. it hasn't gotten the attention it deserves. it is a very serious budget we worked out. reduces -- it puts 7 million people to work right away.

infrastructure. addresses the primary problem facing the economy. which is -- lack of employment and long-term unemployment for very large fraction of our people. it gets down to primary balance by 2015 and gets the budget deficit down to 1.7% gdp by 2016. >> let me show that. this is also the interesting thing about the cpc budget even in the contours of the question about producing long-term deficit it does a better job than the patty murray budget. this is the -- this is the -- how it would reduce deficit. it will do that more than the murray budget. green line there. blue one. ryan budget, of course, if you can find the $6 trillion, tax loopholes, says he can. this is debt as a share of gdp. you see the same thing. budget comes in underneath the murray budget over time in terms of reducing debt. >> problem with the progressive

budget is that -- one of the really great things about it is it is incredibly specific about what taxes it wants to raise which we haven't seen in almost any other budget. unfortunately they are all tax those are guaranteed to turn republicans into scream iing dervishes. taxes on big oil. >> bring it. >> taxing millionaires at 49%. >> billionaire. >> billionaires, sorry. this is everything republicans will never, ever agree to. we saw that in the fiscal cliff. my question is what's the plan to make them agree? >> congresswoman, i want to get you on this. >> you know -- >> what's the plan to make them agr agree? you have a witty personality. if you don't mind my saying. the question is -- can you -- through your personality bring the republican house over? >> i think what's bad this whole conversation and what's happened the last week is that the american public doesn't care whose budget it is. you have ryan's budget and murray's budget and cpc. the american public says, can

you just solve this problem. the american public wants, number one, congress to do no harm. that's a big ask giving what congress has done in recent years. right? the problem i see with the rye ain't budget it hurts the recovery this we are starting to make in our country. and it closes so-called loopholes or tax credits that are for. mortgage interest deduction, middle classful lease rely on. with all due respect neither of the other budgets were formed in collaboration with folks across the aisle either. three budgets all put out in their own silos with no real conversation with the parties together, which means, frankly, none of them are real. none of this is really going to happen. >> this is, i think, now we are -- >> i want to respond to heidi's question because what's really even more fantastical than the notion republicans would accept the financial -- >> can we throw out the taxes, by the way? >> you are going to cut -- you are going to reverse the affordable care act and cut

medicare this way. we are talking in terms of medicare, talking about a program that even a majority of tea partiers do not want touched. that is if a are more notion than the idea that somehow we are going to go back to traditional that we had in this country for the vast majority. >> let me interject. not just traditional tax base. there is a bunch of new taxes. carbon tax and financial transaction tax. >> we are never going to get close to the marginal tax rates we had 30 years ago. the question as to whether or not these budgets are fantastical is also, i think, look, we have the sequester now. there's really no -- weir we have de facto budget. beer seeing competing measures for what the government should do at this point. and the ryan budget basically says that the government should just go away. [ male announcer ] ok, here's the way the system works.

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good morning, everybody. because of escalating threats from north korea, the u.s. has postponed an upcoming test of an intercontinental ballistic missile. a pentagon official says chuck hagel does not want the launch to be misinterpreted and heighten current tensions with north korea. top military officer is putting off a scheduled trip to washington for talks later this month. he says he can't be away from south korea and the ongoing threats from the north. on the road in turkey today, secretary of state john kerry says nuclear talks with iran will continue despite yesterday's discussions that brought no agreement. back in the states, the son of noted author evangelist wick warren has taken his own life. a statement from warren's church says matthew warren suffered a longuality with mental ill must and was suicidal for much of his life. those are your headlines. we have so much more news coming up in the next hour.

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plus, my local scottrade office is there to help. because they know i don't trade like everybody. i trade like me. i'm with scottrade. (announcer) scottrade. voted "best investment services company." topic we keep returning to, the elections approach, we learned about one software ceo in florida who was telling his employees their jobs may be on the line. reported last week on an e-mail obtained by software solutions of practice based software firm to his 1300 employees asking them to vote for romney and suggesting their jobs pit be at stake if romney doesn't win. we have now obtained another e-mail from allen, long-time supporter of donor republican campaigns, going further than just asking for votes.

this one dated day before the scheduled start of the republican national convention, allen told his employers, quote, i'm encouraging everyone to go to the romney for president website and contribute as much as you can to his campaign for president. up to the maximum of $2,500 per person. i'm also encouraging to you contact all of your friends and relatives and ask them to support romney and go to the polls and vote on election day. asg, like many companies, is still struggling even after four years. we need to elect a fiscally conservative president and vice president and stop this ridiculous government spending. believe romney and ryan can put us back on the path to sanity that even then it is not going to be painfulless for our count country. help asg and yourself by contributing to the romney campaign. third e-mail we obtained five weeks after asking his employees to contribute as much as $2500 to the romney campaign, allen asked them to defer, quote, some or all of their salaries until december to help the company make a $15 million interest

payment. allen noted many asg employees already had been on a four-day workweek for several years. in a statement, asg software solutions is a privately held company and reserves the right to be honest and forthright with all employees about the future. all communications are intended to be informative, not coercive. we championed open communications and on monday, employees will be ebb couraged to provide feedback in a confidential forum. just for context earlier this year allen publicly touted his use of the company's private jet. gulf stream g-550 costs more than $50 million. special advertisement section, configured with 17 seats, gulf stream becomes an airborne hotel, restaurant and conference room. that's where i live 250 day as year, allen says. of course, as we discussed last week allen isn't alone. westgate resort ceo dave seagal, shut down his business if romney

didn't win. suggesting they vote republican all the way down the ballot and on a teleconference in june mitt romney himself told business owners they should be telling their employees how to vote. >> i hope you make it very clear to your employees what you believe is in the best interest of your enterprise and, therefore, their job and their future in the upcoming elections. and whether you agree with me or you agree with president obama or whatever your political view, i hope you passed those along to your employees. nothing illegal about you talking to your employees what you believe is best for the proceeds. that will figure into their voting decision. >> and will post all of those e-mails and their statements.

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hey. whassup. guten tag. greetings earthlings. what's crackalackin? it's great we express ourselves differently. if we were all the same, life would be boring. so get to know people who aren't like you. you'll appreciate what makes us different. the more you know. one of the first segments we

did remains favorite to this day. we discovered the different news outlets transcribed the speech differently. unlike other news outreceipts the official associated press dropped the letter g from the word complaining and grumbling. mark smith the ap reporter, said the president did make a point of dropping the gs. we asked the pan fell they agreed and if this interpretation would have used for a president that isn't black. all right. joining karen hunter and ezra klein at our table, george mcquarter, lecturer at columbia university. oregon state representative jefferson smith, also recently declared a candidate through the mayoral race. jefferson, here is the thing. we agreed to have you on the show before your declaration. you can stay here you about don't get boring. okay? >> i will try really hard.

>> my heart sank when i got t announce. >> mine, too. >> the president last might was talking to the congressional black caucus and this comes amidst a lot of news about his relationship to the congress am black caucus, african-american basis specifically. there's polling out. i will look at this poll and we will get his clip. polling out showing that the amount that the support among african-americans was strongly favorable in april, 83%. it is down to 58% in september. this is the president -- what he had to say last might to the congressional blacks caucus. >> i don't know about you, cbc, but the future rewards of those that press on with a push and firm determination, i'm going to press on for jobs. i'm going to press on for equality. i'm going to press on for the sake of our children. i'm going to press on for the

sake of all those families that are struggling now. i don't have time to feel sorry for myself. i don't have time to complain. i'm going to press on. i expect all of you to march with me and press on. take off your bedroom slippers. put on your marching shoes. shake it off. stop complaining. stop grumbling and stop crying. we are going to press on. we have work to do. cbc. >> so, john, i wanted to show you -- one of our producers, todd, highlighted had last night. i wanted to show this to you. i thought it was great catch. this is the verbiage, text of that address, as reported by politico. do we have the politico one first? this is him. there it is. you see it. you have to stop complaining, grumbling, crying, we are going to proceeds. this is work we have to do. this is how the ap transcribed

the same section. shake it off. what's your takeaway from this different kind of interpretive trance christia transcript? >> barack obama won the election for president partly on the basis of the fact he can switch into that dialect. can you imagine somebody who wasn't in trying to get away with the beautiful yes, we can line. you have to say yes, we can. with that inplex and that mlk -- >> i think it is inherently racist to do something like that and i think that -- for to you sit here and defend it as p it is cool, you know, when you know what they were doing, to me is almost offensive. >> no. the dropped "g" means it is black english which is --

>> which is what. >> the youth lingo. it is not improper english. it is a different kind of english. america, including non-black america, loves that way of speaking. the america of hip hop, et cetera. when he drops his gs and uses that inflection all of it is a black english package and makes him sound genuine and makes him sound warm and makes people listen. i wish he would talk more that way while he's on the trail. >> one thing i love about this president is he does the right things at that time right time. he knew who his audience was. that's what he -- he does. but for them the do that in a publication, you know what that is. it is not acceptable on any level. i think journalism class, i tell my students to fix people's grammar because you don't want them to sound ignorant. for them to do that it is cold and i don't like it. >> i don't think it looks that ignore an today. i understand when you were saying if it were, say, 1950, 1960. but that dialect -- >> have you been watching what's

going on? chris looked at me and you. >> no, no. look. >> i don't think a little bit of lead leaving off a "g" is going to let people think had is a an unlettered thug after all. >> certain places. >> you think that's -- i actually -- so i hi -- i see -- >> that's interesting. >> well, here -- >> politician now. you have to be careful. >> i think it sounded real. >> here is what i think is as if mating. so much of the -- centrality of the appeal is precisely, i think, ability as you stated to actually speak in a variety of sort of american tones. mine, he can -- he can speak in different tones and doesn't sound like that when he is in front of congress. he does mop sound like in iowa. i mean -- but he does sound like that in front of the cbc. the question is

journalistically, to press you on this point, does it not get a more accurate flavor of the speech if you do not have the video to transcribe it in the way they did? >> hide the coates. that's a genuine question. switches. >> i personally believe to do that undermines the power of the -- this man is probably one of the most intel gentleman presidents we had. >> ever. >> since jimmy carter. now i will get him in trouble. to do that, you know, it is -- something is very ignore an about putting -- like tom sawyer and huckleberry finn-ish. when we have a black president, which we never had before, we should be super sensitive to that. >> that there is a certain baggage that comes with that. >> we have month pride in our native dialect. i just realize -- native to our people. >> it is not your native dialect. i never heard you speak like

that. >> dialect most black american people and should be a badge of prize. instead -- >> why don't we do the whole show in that dialect so we can get a flavor for it? >> we are talking about code switching. there is formal, informal. white, mostly black. you can do both. we are in a rather formal context and most of us are not black. so this is not the context. that does not mean when you do it you are doing something wrong. i wish we had more pride in the dialect. black people 100 years ago tended to do more than we do now. goods he can do that. >> because this man is being judge today often based on his race, i think to do something like that in print just -- furthers -- you know, puts him in that -- in that place. i think that it is not really proper. as a journalist, former journalist, i don't ascribe to being a journalist because i'm sad the way journal its silver medal -- >> thanks a lot. it was great to have you on our show.

>> you know. i just think it is wrong. and -- >> that was -- this is the -- fascinating. we are going to be right back and talk about a bunch of other issues right after the break. you are watching "the best of up." ♪ [ male announcer ] how could a luminous protein in jellyfish, impact life expectancy in the u.s., real estate in hong kong, and the optics industry in germany? at t. rowe price, we understand the connections of a complex, global economy. it's just one reason over 75% of our mutual funds beat their 10-year lipper average. t. rowe price. invest with confidence. request a prospectus or summary prospectus with investment information, risks, fees and expenses to read and consider carefully before investing. a regular guy with an irregular heartbeat. the usual, bob? not today. [ male announcer ] bob has afib: atrial fibrillation not caused by a heart valve problem,

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at the complicated and for legacy of hugo chavez? on tuesday night after word broke venezuela's president of 14 years, hugo chavez, died, it didn't take long for the condemnations to roll in from right-wing commentators, pundits and twitterers. russ human rights violator extraordinaire. latest in the long line, strong men that have been tad bad man who demonized america. arguing with someone that took exception to his celebration of chavez's death by saying i have no respect for hitlers. do you? all of that instant condemnation made me wonder how we go about evaluating leaders from other countries and what it bus americans and that makes us citizens of the world's lone superpower. in 2003 gallup asked people if they knew the name of a current russian president.

40% volunteered correctly the name putin. over 70% knew it was pit del castro you about only 6% correctly named the prime minister of canada. if the average american citizen knows of a world leader, the odds are it is because he has been cast as a villain in our national drama. many of the people we cost in that role are truly monstrous. saddam hussein comes to mind. what kind of knowledge is it to know simply and only that someone somewhere is a bad guy. there are two different kinds of understanding one might have of a foreign leader of the nation, one is a body of knowledge about a country and its politics. the institutions that constrain or define political life and history and culture and various strains of myth that shape what happens there. and then there is a determination about whether said leader is good or bad that resembles in its own strange way movie critics' judgment. thumbs up or thumbs down. and it occurred to me in the wake of chavez's death when it comes to leaders of the rest of the world we are most of us

critics who haven't even seen the movie. i couldn't tell you a lot about russian politics. how election works, federalized the system is, basics of the constitutional structure. i knew putin is a repressive thug. in other words, i know relatively very little about russia except i do know whether i approve much its leader. when you stop and think about it, that's a bit odd. remember, a few years back, when i was -- spent a week in turkey and talked to a wide range of folks i met about the russian president. he led the democratic nation for 11 years and is a populist of sorts who many your bane liberal turks i met compare to bush to his highly religious and conservative base. it seemed to me both unprecedented and transformative for a nation witnessed three military coups. as a trip wrapped up i remember thinking at some point i was somehow failing because i was

than able to come up with a simple judgment. where do i stand on that? thumbs up or down. i felt the same way after spending a week in china where the complexities of the chinese state managed to shatter almost every category of analysis i had going in. i got back from china and people asked what i thought. my response was it is complicated. to say another country or country's leadership record is complicated is not to issue an apology for wrongdoing. we shouldn't simply be neutral in the face of beatings and disappearances and state repression and bullying. but condemnation and outrage are no substitute for knowledge about the world and other countries' politics tangled and complicate just like our own. i can't help but think there is a relationship between our tendency to know nothing about a country other than if they are bad or not and we spend more money on defense than the next 13 countries combined. if all we see are hitlers, we will forever be at war. rather than render a final judgment on chavez as legacy and explore where he lies in the contested ground between villain

and in saint. joining me today are michael moynihan, cultural news editor for "newsweek" and daily beast. greg granden, history professor, "empire workshop." er in hernandez, author of "who is stop the drums." queens college. where does chavez lie? i think the first question that i think a lot of people want to litigate. i think rightly so is on this line between absolute authoritarian, totalitarian state with the secret service and people, i don't know what our most shining example of liberal democracy is scan i didn't i have a yeah, something like that, if those are the polls, i think that where chavez -- what should we call

what chavez was? political system that -- he helped shape in venezuela which was quite different upon his exit than when he went in, including what the actual constitution was and term limits, et cetera, the number of houses in the legislature which were is rung from two to one. what should we -- what do we call that? how should we think about what that is? >> i would say it is -- work in progress. so -- as you mentioned, takes -- 1999, swept into office on a wave of severe discould be tent with the prior 40 years of government. democracy, two-party democracy. where the revenues of oil were not distributed, even assemblance with equality. and when you -- the process he called tour of democracy essentially became a revolution and eventually over time became a socialist revolution. at heart of it, there were would questions p who controls it and

to what uses are the revenues of industry going to go. in an oil country which venezuela is, sometimes sort of -- don't really have a sense of what that means but internalize what an oil country is, those questions shape the rest of the political environment. and what chavez did when he came into office was to say, well, the oil industry which at that time had gone through process of reprivatization after the -- nationalization in 1976, should actually be -- should come back into the service of the ve venezue venezuelan people. he did that by strengthening opec and renewed alliances with opec nations like iran and libya. >> also naturalized the oil industry. >> renationalized it. then the other question was, well, then now that we have sort of the new control of our industry, created a tremendous battle internally, what do we do with those revenues now coming in. and that's where you see the rise of social programs and then really with the new

consciousness about what should an oil industry do which is basically to provide for its sit sense you also see a centralization of power. you see -- obviously oil is part of that. once you control oil receive knew, in a country that's -- entirely dependent or largely dpeen dent on that oil receive knew you have a lot more power. general factual matter. also the consolidation of -- i mean, expanded the mum of his people on the court. he -- passed laws that -- could give fines to opposition maid yeah. i mean, there are -- michael -- >> often did it. >> you -- you wrote quite -- critical piece. yeah. you are not a fan of him. and -- i thought it was interesting, though, greg wrote a piece that was, i think, quite complicated and critical. but you both have paragraphs in your pieces. you say that -- you say he was a strong man. this term. you say he was not a dictator but he was no democrat. >> month democrat. >> sure. look, words mean things.

you showed people on the front here saying he is a dictator, like hitler. no, he is not. good god, you can go to venezuela and be in the opposition. you can read -- you can see these newspapers. that said, it is a very tough business. all you maid to do is look at human rights watch. committee for protect journalists and all these places, freedom has not rightly order -- the organization saying oh, you know, we -- despise socialism. regardless of what he is doing with -- the right way of redistributing wealth, that's fine. whether or not this is -- produced in authoritarian country or country tendencies is a different issue. i mean, when i was in -- venezuela in -- march, this is a people of cameramen that had never been found we were in the office and the newspaper. chavez was on the tv. something -- no support would ever allow the united states. when the government requires all

radio and television stations to carry a message from the president which can last up to eight hours. existed prayer to chavez but mostly used for emergencies and such. so -- the -- journalists started flipping the channel. every one was chavez. this is a very bizarre thing for people in the united states. and -- in that type of thing, it is, ballot boxes are not stuffed p. >> right. >> and you can verify these elections for sure. but you know, prior to -- the election is when you say -- well, subpoena exactly a western democracy here when the airways are dominated. >> just to poe back to this question of the media, again, the -- what happened -- what people think happens, actually happens on the ground. the fact is the state -- controls about 5% of the radio tv stations. 70% private hands. maybe -- 25 in the hands of the community stations that sprouted up. ratings overwhelmingly in the this private or cable. cable -- cable stations don't

have to. especially the broadcast. >> poor communities. >> that said going back to the question about how do we explain this and it is complicate asked think about the complexity, one of the ways to think historically. what you have in venezuela is think collapse of the old would party system. exclusive system and it was founded on corruption and exclusion. didn't incorporate the interests or the participation or meet the basic needs or the majority of the population. particularly durg the last ten decades of that system which implodes. he emerge prosecutors representing a very broad coalition. and it wasn't anything -- could striken different shapes at different types. it was not focused. and -- because he -- quickly established rhetorical longevity and electoral, again, hay won, i think -- won four electrics himself. five if you count the recall p

14 out of 15 elections. by wide margins. while greatly expanding the electora electorate. he actually didn't confront the kind of pockets of privilege of the old regime and corruption of the old regime and why didn't he do that? one, oil money to allow him to play -- >> right. >> this is venezuela exceptionalism. other countries that had this breakdown -- >> oil revenue. >> would have -- the -- a rising political coalition would have been forced to choose between the old political class and new social movements and the military, chavez because of his own skills didn't have to. setting aside his own personal motivations of whether he was a good or bad person, venezuela mitt be the most democratic country in the hemisphere because of the social movements that support him which he never repressed. there is something -- >> come on. that's a statement saying the social movement that support him

which he never did -- why would you repress? how democratic country is isn't whether -- >> month. if you look at the history of latin america p. there is a histo history. chavez is the only one who didn't turn within a couple of years. >> i see what you are saying. >> the other thing is -- so -- if he had created -- presided over a -- consolidated state we have had something like the pre in mexico. [ male announcer ] how do you measure happiness?

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most of what we determine about our presidents derive prosecutors speeches. those moments suggest we are

really getting a sense of how they think and feel about the world. in essence, speeches help create a public persona, character. with that in mind i sat down with a group of fiction writers, folks that decree eight characters for a living, to help dissect and maybe better understand the characters that's been created of president barack obama. >> we worship an awesome guy in the blue states ask don't like federal agents poking around in our libraries in the red states. we coach little league in the blue states and, yes, we have gay friends in the red states. patriots that oppose the war in iraq and patriots that support it the war in iraq. we are one people. all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes. all of us defending the united states of america. >> with that keynote speech delivered july 27, 2004. then u.s. senate candidate from illinois, barack obama, announced his arrival.

most exciting young political persona in american life. he was the stranger who came to down life would never be the same. perhaps more than any other national political figure in recent memory barack obama used speeches and rhetorical set pieces to define his character tell his story and propel political events. the convention speech comes to mind and as does his incredible philadelphia speep on race. in the next few weeks president obama dlirs two huge speeches. anything ration speech and state of the union address and in these speeches barack obama tells a story of a country. about voters and continuing to tell the story of barack obama. story not about him as a human being but as a character he and the people around him have consciously constructed. if that sounds overly cynical no one is more aware of the distance between the man barack obama and the public image of same than the president himself. earlier this year he told michael lewis of "vanity fair" one of the things that you realize fairly quickly in this job is that there is character people see called barack obama. that's not you.

whether it is good, bad, it is not you. i learned that on the campaign. given barack obama's remarkable gift and storytelling, impending of the drama of his presidency, we thought it would be lightening to invite experts in storytelling. joining me, ayana mathis. "the tenth of december." action fiction director. columbia school of the arts. pulitzer prize winning author michael shavin, "telegraph." it is good to have you all here. michael, about a third of the way in your book, barack obama shows up as a character. i want to start off with you about how you thought about writing the character of barack obama because you were doing something similar to, i think, what barack obama and his speech

writers have to do. >> i mean, i actually think what you -- what i -- get out of that quote that you read from the article is that it is -- there is an attempt to the part of both barack obama and his speech writers and people who are in charge of the way he presented the media to create a narrative and create a character. here's not actually the character barack obama i think barack obama was talking about in that quote. the narrative to me is written by some much larger collective entity that incorporates both, you know, right wing commentary and left wing the way he is perceived by ordinary people and things that other people write about him and say about him and the ways in which he is depicted are just as for to creating that character of barack obama as whatever he may say or do about himself. for me i felt that i was entitled to incorporate that character, barack obama, as i understood him. very much in the way that the

fiction -- have a crossover appearance from, you know, where -- i say captain kirk will appear. you know, i mean, it is -- in a way it is a -- a little bit like a kind of fan fiction in the sense that it is this vast collective storytelling and enterprise. >> i think it is a really good point because i think we all write our own barack obama fan fiction. in a certain level. we all are creating -- there is -- will is something about him as a figure that is both, you know, probably more words written about him than any political figure of probably since lincoln, i would guess. maybe pdr. particularly in terms of ratio of times spent on earth or in office to those words. and yet at the same time they are seeing something that -- always mysterious about him. >> even though we know so much about him. >> absolutely. he is -- if -- it is really this question of creating a narrative of yourself. it is. i think you are right. it is a combination of -- public

perception and all these things. also his own perception of himself. and it is very interesting, too, i think, i was sort of thinking about him and kind of contrasting him with bush, second bush. and the ways in which bark bsac obama's narrative of himself is sort of believable in a certain kind of way. i think sort of george bush kind of wanted us to sort of see him as this deeply authoritative figure we will not negotiate with terrorists. all these kind of things. i always felt there was this strange gap. i didn't quite completely believe him. he was sort of saying these words. i didn't actually believe what he wanted me to think about the character he was creating of himself. with barack obama, i have kind of completely believed. we will talk about it the ways. i very much believe his croatian of himself. >> that believability is a fascinating aspect because if you read a story, a draft of

which, read a back and forth of you with your editor, fascinating, you write a story. i don't believe this, right. the question that -- that question is, is that the author's problem or the reader's problem. >> author's problem. >> we all agree. it is interesting because for me that writing thing is about revision. so what happens with revision. in my experience you go closer and closer to the difficult truths and that you couldn't just blurt out. it took 15 drafts to get to this there is another side to this character. that might -- one of the interesting things about public discourse is it is very short and it is usually pretty much made to order. quick. in what we do you go a time, lot of revisions and my thing is you always kind of seek down into a quieter, more truthful place where the -- fundamental motion increased empathy and -- by way of detail.

just say it. i know you know it. don't be afraid. we will get it if you say it. at times -- the president has muff -- knocks it out of the park you see the gap between the creation and the man vanish. it is not storytelling as much as just -- >> authenticity. >> truth expressed efficiently. who can resist that? >> this is a question of authenticity. in what is so difficult about being a politician, i have seen this from covering politicians, precisely that you are trying to artificially protect himself at that time. that is your job. because if you are up into yourself is and show things about yourself that aren't awesome. >> speak for yourself. >> like that's the process. >> getting back to the dnc speech, first one in 2004, you know, i watched it again last night since we were coming on. >> you just watch it. >> no. but the -- pretty much the first

thing he does after he makes the necessary thanks to this person and that person, he starts with the story of his grandparents. >> >> from either side. one of the things that i -- felt like i didn't even remember for when i watched again, i saw, he basically says on my father's side and on my mother's side i come from a very hard working people like you. and -- it made me think that the story that barack obama has probably had been telling and had to be telling since he was a kid was i'm like you. you know. >> there's a -- a great clip of a -- very similar moment in the philadelphia speech. the story of barack obama is largely -- subtext of the story a story about race and the american racial history. also, story about being able to speak in and hear in different voices which makes him distinction than other politicians.

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what makes it so powerful is he seems to almost be like a figure with race. right? high's inhabited both worlds and now has the gift of prophecy because he has been in both worlds and channels that. this is xan example of him doing that at his most effective. the -- remarkable speech he gave after the jeremiah wright thing blew up and on the campaign trail. the real moment in political life where a speech saved a -- politician's -- they were in trouble and they had to mack a really good speech. they made a good enough speech they were no longer in trouble. this -- this is a small section. take a look. >> like other predominantly black churches across the country trendy embodies the black community in its entirety. the church contains in full the kindness and cruelty, the fierce intelligence, and the shocking ignorance. the struggles and successes, the

laugh and, yes, the bitterness and biases that make up the black experience in america. this helps explain, perhaps, my relationship with reverend wright. as imperfect as he may be he has been like family to me. i can no more disown him than i can disown the black community. i can no more disown him than i can disown my white grandmother. a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sagryfiesed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world but a woman who -- once confessed her fear of black men that pass her by on the street. and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe. >> one of the things i think barack obama knows well is he can speak in different language,

different -- registers, and particularly through different racial prisms. and i think it is someone that sometimes tries my hand at fiction that there's -- there is an uncomfortability we have with that. saying speaking as a white man which is like i'm going to write dialogue in the voice of this black woman. is this going to be overly mannered or is it going to be stereotypical? i wonder your thinking is about that. having to write, obviously, writing characters across different racial divides like -- channeling those voices and how well he's able to do it specifically. >> he is able to do it, i think, incredibly well because of it -- and his sort of -- point in history and -- kind of who he is right now, i -- i have a lot of friends that are biracial. we have gotten to this very interesting place in our history where people are coming of age, who are very much drawing on two completely different kinds of experiences. we are also so far post-civil rights. and we have gotten to this moment where those people are not necessarily living as

pariahs anymore. race is deeply cop plex and continues to be in this country. but -- certainly i think biracial people are much more separated out and they were much more stigmatized. we have gotten to this point where they are not but that they are still kind of one foot in one in the other world. one of the amazing things about barack obama is how well and how much he speaks to that and how much he sort of inhabits that role. >> a along with my writing students, they will try something like this. they will try people from -- forget race -- they are not from the south. they write a southerner, their idea of whatever that is. my writing advice to them all the time slyke -- this is a terrible southerner. you can get to know some southe southerners. get a different idea. >> is that the only solution? is that the only solution to channeling? is it -- is it possible to

create a convincing southerner or a convincing african-american woman from the '50s if you are of white 28-year-old -- >> i think -- what i thought was it is not -- his channeling character but what he is doing is saying to the listener i trust you deeply. i will be as honest as i can and tell you the weirdest marginal truths and because you are -- as smart as i am, you are going the lean forward. i think for me in fiction that's a really for principle to assume the best of your reader and don't puppeteer. i think trying to just do affect, regional voice is the form of rig to evade the real stuff. whereas what he is doing is saying all right, i know you dear read are just as smart and compassionate as i am, i dare. >> did you i think that's what made -- that speech to me is single most for speech i have seen in may entire life because it was the only time i have ever watched audition saying things that i -- i would never have expected of authors to say in a way i never --

>> that gets -- that i totally agree. it was like the things you might imagine him saying to a therapist. period. to his wife. and the -- >> to people whom he trust. >> right. right. i thought you were sharing a special thing. >> that gets -- that gets to this question. basked in construction. i want to explore this because dash i have watched this depressing thing happen with politicians who i really liked in the beginning because they were authentic and got less authentic. they also became more successful. and so i want to ask your thoughts about like when they can work. you are getting an elevated hopeful vision of this which is that trust and authenticity are a voice and register of -- that both work from the poetic stand point and also from political standpoint but seems like there is a real divergence of politics. day by day? don't compromise. new vidal sassoon pro series from the original salon genius. starts vibrant, stays vibrant.

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hey there. i'm alex witt. here is what's happening. u.s.s poe owning a missile

test. an official says the defense secretary does not want to test the heighten the stand-off with north korea. china, new strain of bird flu inspected at least 18 people and killed six more. authorities slaughtered 26,000 chickens. the strain has been transmitted from birds to people. back in this country, a philadelphia fire fighter's dead after battling a pyre at a fabric store and fireman died. another fire fighter was hurt trying to save the fire captain little the navy is has commissioned a new warship honoring the victims of the september 11 attacks. the u.s.s. arlington is in memory of the people killed at pentagon. i left question before the break the fact that it does seem to me that a lot of politics

is -- not this elevated notion of trust and inty misy. i have seen politicians who go from the process of getting consultants, you know, that get them away from autsz enadvertisety. part of authenticity is weakness and vulnerability. weakness and vulnerability are an extremely dangerous thing that play with if you are a politici politician. >> i mean, it is tricky. authenticity might only really make sense if you put tonight quotations. when we go through our every day lives, there is always a certain amount of performance involved in what -- you are talking about that obama is such a master of certain switching registerors seeming comfortable of going back and forth between different contradictions. we all do that. all the time. if we are talking to people in positions of authority and talking to children. we change and speak to -- by doing that we change the person we are to a certain degree. it is -- you say -- obama or george bush that -- second one

had -- these moments where he has seem incredibly authentic or where he -- he -- he would come across as a real person who was out there chopping the brush away his ran zblch high -- ranch. >> you know, it is -- there is -- there is always an aspect in every speaker action you are having with every other people that a part of it that -- i think it is -- what happens in the speech like that philadelphia speech where you feel like it is something that got worn away and you are seeing through to some -- true thing. you are talking about. >> one thing i'm struck by reading different speech cess that -- as a -- ocd self-editor is how often really cliches will show up. and -- to me that's something that i -- i think if you just took even a mediocre speech and

took the comfort words, then -- suddenly will aren't enough words. you have to substitute in. maybe those will be more truthful. they are markers for insincerity and for -- sort of an agenda. >> word frankly, for instance. >> this friendlier catch phrase as you just almost don't even read in this speech anymore. but i think what you notice in that clip was that there was enough -- there was literally not a single one. originality and expression. incredible that -- i got -- goosebumps. the -- quickness with which a certain rhetorical -- came home and at tend of it, wow, that was -- that was fascinating. here's something -- hard to talk about. but language is power. and -- you can -- you see it. >> you said -- that -- i mean, obviously the -- he had -- gave that speech after the reverend wright stuff blew up.

maybe what's miss sing someone's butt is in the fire. >> exactly. >> that's what it is. if you had to give a speech like your life -- >> to save your career. >> i think that -- the way that cause as problem at least for me watching obama is that speech set the bar so high. >> so true. >> every subsequent speech. >> they don't -- mutual fund of them. you know, partly i think because of the extreme circumstances that he found himself in when he made that speech. keep waiting for -- you know, i think dashes especially in the run-up to the last election you would hear people talking about why doesn't he tell this story. why doesn't he communicate the -- you know, this is -- >> has become a cliche. he needs to marshal those storytelling abilities. there becomes the kind of very knee-jerk frustration with barack obama because he is not telling the right story.

diaz taught me about the storyteller in chief a year that barack obama's -- incredible storyteller himself. president can have all the vision of the world, orator, courage, foresight. making choices and bold, progressive plan for his nation. none of these things will matter if he can't couch his position in the idiom of the story. i think there's -- tendency particularly with people that work with words like -- writerses and journalists to overestimate the power of that a little bit and to get -- bang on about how barack obama isn't marshalling that. >> i think it misplace it is agency a lot, too. he's not really in control. whoever is telling, like i said, it is this collective storytelling. he's just one. >> i want to talk about empathy, something you mentioned. moral imagination. part of the project or political leader is to try to expand that and part of the project of a writer as well. we will talk about this after the break. with the spark miles card from capital one,

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i want to play a bit after speech from barack obama after the gabby gifford shooting which was a really -- remarkable speech. he talks about expanding our moral imagination. take a look. >> let's use this occasion to expand our moral imaginations. to listen to each other more carefully. to sharpen our instincts for empathy. and remind ourselves of all of the ways that our hopes and dreams are bound together. after all, after all, that's what most of us do when we lose somebody in our family. especially if the loss is

unexpected. we are shaken out of our routines. we are forced to look inward. all of us, we should do everything we can do to make sure this country lives up to our children's expectations. >> to me that was a real quintessential barack obama moment. one is this idea of empathy. it is the theme of the reaching people across artificial distinctions and also people frustrated bus he didn't talk about gun control. not picking a fight because that's not -- that is not his -- his picking fights. it is getting will you and what -- all of you do in some ways is trying to get people out of their own heads and in a the heads of our people. right? is that how you see yourself? the project you are engaged as a writer? >> i think that's absolutely the case.

you know, you sort of go -- deeper and deeper, my method, inside of the sort of psyche of the character in order to make them more and more real. one of the things that i think is interesting about barack obama, that's the point you just made, he didn't pick a fight or go on about gun control, is that his -- his stance seems to me often reminds me of martin luther king's stance which is wear all impoverished by this series of events, in this case by gabby giffords. we are all sort of as a nation, all of us are deeply impoverished by this horrible state in which woe find ourselves. so it is not -- it is an interesting sort of tech neck and an interesting way to sort of garner empathy among people that are listening to you because it doesn't point fingers. it doesn't say you are wrong or right. look here. all of us are together. and we are all worse off because of x, y, z. which i think is, as an incredible technique both used

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you're watching the final episode of up with chris hayes. as up enters a new era, i wanted to leave you with final thoughts, tell you a little bit about the incredibly talented new host you'll see sitting here next weekend. before you play that segment, i hope you'll join me tomorrow night at 8:00 p.m. for all in with chris hayes right here on msnbc. until then, thanks for getting up. what should you know coming up. today is my final day hosting up. you should know that this job has been an absolute joy and an honor to hold down. it's the best job in tv. maybe the best job in the world. you should know that i have learned so much over the past 18

months of sitting at this table because of the incredible guests we've had on. senators, to people looking for work, walmart workers to ex-gang members, journalists and akey viss, historians and philosophers, and farmers and rappers, all of these people who share their expertise and perspectives and experiences. i've learned as well because of you, the viewers who have built a community around this show that models precisely the royaling dispew tashs respectful informed conversation that is what the public's fear should be. thank you for your commitment to this show and for allowing me to learn from you. >> if you're a fan of this show, one of the crazy diehards i need from the west coast who set the alarm like a maniac. i have very good news. the first set of good news is that you may have heard that salon politics editor, steve kornacki will be taking over for

me. steve will be hosting the show right here at this desk the same format, time slot and spirit. steve is a fantastic analyst and reporter, razor sharp, curious and deeply kind and good-natured. i think he's an absolute perfect fit. when i was asked to host live coverage on the saturday night of the main caucus and i would characterize my knowledge of main republican politics as fairly limited. but somehow we booked steve who appeared to know every single pol it igs in the state, what races they won and lost and how the various local political disputes were playing out and affecting the landscape of the presidential race. if you crave deep knowledge, you'll love steve. also, another bit of good news for uppers, jonathan larson, the executive producer, who has been my partner is going to stay with up with steve so the high standards he's brought to the show will remain. you should watch it on saturday, april 13th. the second bit of good news, if

you enjoy this show and format and curiosity and openness, we're going to preserve those essential features weeknights at 8:00 p.m. we'll go deep on topics, bring you new fresh voices and collectively thinking through the news with rigor and passion. we'll follow stories as they arc across the week and intervene in the national conversation about politics, policy and culture. i'm still going to be me and we're going to have a lot of fun and cause some trouble. all this is to stay you're now going to have nine hours of television to watch every week at least. and finally, you should know the way tv is produced and presented has this nasty tendency to reproduce about the broader structure of the american society and economy that i'm committed to fighting against. every weekend you watch this show, you see my name and my face. what you don't see are the dozens of people who work onset, in the makeup room and control room an the brilliant, funny staff of up, who breathe life

into this show every weekend. if you en swroi this show, you're enjoying their work as much as mine. everything we touch in our lives, the shirts on our backs, the keyboard you type on and coffee you drink is produced by a chain of human beings we never met. to those who have done that with vig who and joy and brilliance, here at up, thank you. of the dr. a man fresh out of the shower. nailed it. proof. febreze car vent clips keep your car fresh. breathe happy. was a record collection. no. there was that fuzzy stuff on the gouda. [ both ] ugh! when it came to our plants... we were so confused. how much is too much water? too little? until we got miracle-gro moisture control. it does what basic soils don't by absorbing more water, so it's there when plants need it. yeah, they're bigger and more beautiful. guaranteed. in pots. in the ground. in a ukulele. are you kidding me? that was my idea.

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