toviaz can cause blurred vision, dizziness, drowsiness and decreased sweating. do not drive, operate machinery or do unsafe tasks until you know how toviaz affects you. the most common side effects are dry mouth and constipation. talk to your doctor about toviaz. this sunday just how big of a threat is this sunday just how big of a threat is north korea? what should president obama do about it? a new, unprecedented round of high anxiety over north korea. the threats from a new, young, and largely unknown dictator have washington unnerved. >> we take those threats seriously. we have to take those threats seriously. >> a special discussion this morning with senator lindsey graham, republican of south carolina. and perspective from former ambassador and governor bill richardson. his deep experience dealing with the north koreans. former under secretary of

defense, michele flournoy, and nbc news chief foreign affairs correspondent andrea mitchell. plus, presidential politics. all eyes on hillary clinton after two high-profile speeches this week fuel speculation about another run for the white house. and the obama agenda, new jobs numbers undermine confidence in economic recovery. and a new budget compromise from the president. is it nearly enough for a grand bargain? cnbc's jim cramer joins the conversation this morning. >> announcer: from nbc news in washington, the world's longest running television program, this is "meet the press" with david gregory. and good sunday morning. battles at home and abroad for the president as congress returns monday from a two-week easter recess. it's shaping up to be a spring filled with debate on the budget, immigration and guns. and now overseas a brewing crisis in north korea as the president tries to defuse escalating tensions.

at the center of it all a young, untested leader, kim jong-un, who is making increasingly strident warnings about an imminent war with south korea and the u.s. apparently upset about new, tougher u.n. sanctions and recent joint south korean military exercises. the escalating rhetoric has u.s. officials quite unnerved. defense secretary hagel announcing this weekend a decision to postpone a long scheduled missile test to avoid making an already tense situation even worse. secretary of state kerry left yesterday for the middle east, but he'll be traveling on to seoul and beijing later in the week hoping to get north korea's closest ally, china, help in dealing with this crisis. that's where i want to begin this morning. joining me republican senator from south carolina, lindsey graham. senator, with welcome back to the program. you're just back from visiting the middle east, and back to the u.s., and i want to ask you about syria as well in just a couple of minutes. let me start with north korea and what we're dealing with. a couple of headlines in the magazines caught my attention in "the economist" and in "the

week" magazine. is kim crazy? korean roulette. this war of words escalation, are we heading to a conflict with north korea? >> i think what bothers me the most the tolerance in south korea for this kind of provocation is greatly -- they're not going to put up with this anymore. if there were a south korean naval vessel sunk this year, anytime soon, or a shelling by north korea, i think the new president of south korea would be compelled to act. i think the north koreans are overplaying their hands. this administration is acting responsibly. i'm glad we're not doing the ballistic missile test. have the b-2s where they can see them. i'm glad we're telling our allies, south korea and japan, we literally have your back. and the north koreans need to understand if they attack an american interest or an ally of this country they're going to pay a heavy price. >> let's talk about u.s. interests and they're quite real in the region. look at the map, first of all, to give our viewers some perspective. you've got japan. you have guam, where we had missile batteries placed, moving to north korea and south korea. and, of course,

in the south and the southern part of that peninsula you have over 28,000 u.s. troops. so the danger is real, some kind of conflict, if it breaks out between the north and the south, we are literally right there in the middle. >> we're in the middle. i'm glad we're there with our allies. but the big difference to me the politics in south korea are changing by the day regarding north korea. so if there's some provocation, it won't be business as usual by south korea. i could can see a major war happening if the north koreans overplay their hand this time, because south korea, the united states, the whole region is fed up with this guy. >> but what happens if there is some kind of conflict between the north and the south? that becomes a conflict with the united states. doesn't it? >> the north loses and the south wins with our help, that's what happens. >> and what about the rest of the region? you're talking about japan? talking more nuclear weapons? >> japan and south korea have not gone nuclear unlike the middle east, because they trust us. as long as south korea and japan trust us to be in the fight,

they won't go down the nuclear road. it's important they always believe we have their back, and it's important north korea knows what happens if they engage anybody in the region associated with us, including our own troops, they lose. >> before i ask you a little bit more about the u.s. response, who is kim jong-un? we put together some facts. people have some sense of him. his father kim jong-il ran the country. so his is his son. we don't know his actual age. he's about 29 years old. he came to power in december 2011. educated in the west. i know from talking to people at the white house one of the big fears is miscalculation here. we don't really talk to the north. >> if you sold this as a movie script, i don't think anybody would buy it. a 30-year-old guy whose father was born out of a mountain, who had nine holes in one the first time he played golf. this is a surrealplace. they're afraid of reunification. they don't want a democratic korea next to china, so they're propping up this crazy regime, and they could determine the fate of north korea better than anybody on the planet.

we'll up our game regarding china. >> i want to ask you about syria before we get more perspective on north korea. you met with opposition forces in syria. >> yes. >> you have been talking about more actively helping them, getting the u.s. more involved. do you have a different view about that now? >> a bit. the syrian opposition council replaced the syrian national council. they want more assistance. i think we should give them more assistance, but there's two things that drive my thinking on syria. the king of jordan is going to be a casualty. the worst is yet to come regarding syria if we don't fix this soon. jordan is being overrun by syrian refugees. and before i would arm the rebels, i want a commitment by them that they will allow an international force to secure the 17 chemical weapon sites, enough weapons to kill millions of people, and commit to destroying those weapons. in the new syria they will reject owning chemical weapons. if they would do those two things, i told them, i think there would be more involvement by the congress, there would be more willingness by the congress to help them.

they have to commit to destroying those weapons, allowing us and the international community to control those weapons. i don't know what they're going to say, but if they publicly made those two statements, i think it would be easier for congress to help them, and the radical elements in the syrian three army are growing by the day. the worst is yet to come. we could lose to the king of jordan. this could be the nightmare in the making with the chemical weapons following into radical islamists. the number on the ground is growing every day this war goes on. >> let me gelt more perspective on north korea, our lead story this morning. as i mentioned to andrea mitchell here, governor, you've got a lot of experience with north korea. what is going on here? >> i think kim jong-un is playing to three audiences, and this is why he's doing these provocative acts. by the way, andrea was with me on one of the eight trips i did. first, he's playing to the north korean generals. they run the show. the military.

he's playing to the korean workers party. the leadership there. secondly, he's playing to his own people. he got burned by that missile test that failed, and he feels he has the buttress his domestic standing, and i think the third thing he's doing, he's testing the new south korean president. every year -- every five years or so when a new south korean president comes in, north korea does a provocative act. so the issue is, what do we do about it? i think what we've done in terms of the military posture, the stealth activity makes sense. but i think eventually there's going to have to be some diplomacy and the six-party talks i don't think are working. i think china has to be the key. we have to really get them to lean on north korea. but i think a new diplomatic track is needed. some out of the box diplomacy involving the u.n., the world bank, some special envoy outside of government, because i think we need to get to this new young

leader who i don't think is skull -- calming the show, but nonetheless, because it's a deity, because he is nominally in charge, is probably the key player there. >> michele flournoy, secretary of defense hagel underlining how serious this issue is when he talked about the threat. >> they have nuclear capacity now. they have missile delivery capacity now. and so as they have ratcheted up their bellicose, dangerous rhetoric and some of the actions they've taken the last few weeks present a real and clear danger. >> two things going on there. one, kind of ratcheting up the escalation in words which the administration wanted to tamp down, but kim jong-un is saying look, i'm not talking about losing my nuclear weapons.

i won't even get into those discussions. so from a diplomatic point of view, what do you do? >> we have to convince this new, young, inexperienced leader he's playing a losing hand. that the only way out of the box to get the economic development he wants, to get the progress that he wants is to ratchet back the rhetoric, come back into compliance with the international obligations that north korea has and to get serious about trying to implement some of the commitments he's made at the negotiating table in the past. i think in the meantime the u.s. has been right to focus on bolstering deterrents, bolstering defense, standing shoulder to shoulder with our ally, south korea. >> i would only add this -- i think the goal should not just be to calm him down, to cool the rhetoric down. the goal has to be how do we get north korea back to the negotiating table on nuclear proliferation, on

denuclearization? they have to do it, because that whole asian area is a tinderbox and we have enormous interest. we have 30,000 american troops. they've got hundreds of missiles. they've got maybe up to five to six nuclear weapons. they've got a belligerent leadership. it's in our national interests to try to diplomatically diffuse the situation. i think secretary kerry is the kind of person that can come up with that. >> andrea, a more basic question. it's very hard to explain to your children how north korea can exist this way in the 21st century, and yet we continue with belligerent leadership, with a starving population, with a country completely isolated from the rest of the world. how is had this possible? >> the question for your children and all children, for all of us, who are really children in watching this because it is so inexplicable.

it is a cartoon leadership. it has to be done through china. i think the new chinese president, she is the only leverage that we have. there have been some promising signs and conversations according to tom donilon, according to secretary kerry. i'll be with him on this trip next weekend. we'll be on sunday morning in china. and the whole hope is that he is finally and the new leadership, but this is a critical time, is trying to prepare to exert maximum pressure, because as bill richardson and senator graham and michele flournoy have said, no one knows really what is motivating him, except trying to serious his leadership. who is the puppeteer? the military more than likely. is he going to do something irrational or will there be a miscalculation? i've been there a couple of times, to pyongyang with bill richardson, and the proximity, 800,000 forward deployed north korean troops, and the south koreans and the americans, senator graham is absolutely

right. we would obliterate north korea. you have 35 million people living within miles. >> how dangerous -- you once said that north korea was as dangerous as iraq the last decade. do you still think they're that dangerous? >> crazy people and nuclear weapons, those who proliferate throughout the world are incredibly dangerous. that's why we need to stop syria from getting chemical weapons. the one thing i'm trying to stress is the politics in south korea are strained. there will be no more tolerance for sinking south korean naval vessels or killing civilians by north korea. they need to understand that. that's my biggest fear, guys, that if there's a provocation, south korea is not going to take it anymore, and the reason they don't have nuclear weapons and japan doesn't, is because they trust us. and so i appreciate what this administration is doing, staying with our allies. >> michele, what do you do with the south koreans right now from a military point of view to tell them to trust the united states, as the senator says, and not act too rashly?

>> i think we hold them as close as possible. we do as much as we can to rae reassure them. the fact that we have gone ahead with these annual exercises that we sent b-2 bombers, a sign of our extended deterrence, strategic deterrence to south korea, all that have is incredibly important. we've also done extensive planning with them on how to deal with various scenarios of provocation and how we would respond together as an alliance so that they don't feel that they have to lash out unilaterally by themselves. >> a quick question about diplomacy. it's great to say negotiate with the north, but bill clinton's white house tried to. george w. bush has tried to. they got the deal on blowing up their yongbyon reactor. now they're restarting the reactor. he seems to take the grain, take the fuel, take the money, and then go right ahead and break agreements or at least this regime does. so diplomacy is really a big challenge with this regime. >> a big challenge but we have to do it. what's the alternative?

i think we have to recognize probably the longer range threat is the spread of nuclear materials. you don't want north korea selling enriched uranium to iran. they did it to syria, pakistan. that's -- and i remember asking the north korean leader. are you guys exporting nuclear materiels? he said, maybe. if you continue sanctions we've to get foreign exchange. now, you know, that's pretty devastating. so, look, i think diplomacy has been tried. i think president clinton probably was the most successful getting an agreement done. president bush, i think, started to negotiate with him. they're very difficult but i think we need a new negotiating track, and i think the keep is -- the key is going to be the united states and china. south korea is a major player, but i think for domestic reasons they have to be. >> i have a couple seconds left with you, senator graham, and i want to turn domestically to talk about immigration and the

budget. start with the budget. do you think that the president's framework that he announced, including change cpi, a gradual way to cut social security benefits, is a good-faith effort on his part? do you think he can actually win some new revenues as a budget deal by doing it? >> there are nuggets of his budget that i think are optimistic. it's overall a bad plan for the economy, but when you look at cpi, we're beginning to set the stage for the grand bargain. change cpi. harmonize, adjust medicare with social security. means testing for both programs. in return flatten the tax code, generate about $600 billion of revenue. and if you look at these changes over 30 years, this $4 trillion to $5 trillion in savings. i'm looking at the biggest spending cut in history by reforms entithtsments, saving entitlements and the president showing a little bit of leg here. this is encouraging. his overall budget is not going to make it but he has made a step forward to the entitlement reform process that would allow a guy like me to talk about flattening the tax code.

also generating more revenue. >> do you think a grand bargain is possible by july? >> i think if you do immigration and the grand bargain this year will dominate the 21st century, yes. the key to the grand bargain is can we solve immigration? if we can in a bipartisan fashion fix a broken immigration system to regain our lost sovereignty, control who comes to the country, who gets a job, a robust temporary worker program and as to republicans the politics of self-deportation are behind us. mitt romney is a good man. he ran, in many ways, a good campaign, but it was impractical a solution, quite frankly, it was offensive. every corner of the republican party from libertarians, the rnc, house republicans and the rank and file republican party member is now understanding there has to be an earned pathway to citizenship. that gives us leverage on immigration with our democratic friends. >> i want to follow that on a second, but i want to follow up -- you're purting a new revenue, as a republican, on the table? >> if we do substantial entitlement reform that will save $4 trillion to $5

trillion over a window -- >> what the president is talking about in your view substantial? >> this is a step in the right direction, but harmonizing the age for retirement, means testing both programs, cpi adjustments gets you pretty much where you need to go. >> the republican leader of the senate there yet? >> well, i can tell you this, that the republican party would benefit as well as the democratic party from saving the american economy from becoming greece. if the president will lead on this, and he showed some leadership, no democrat will get to his right. nobody's going to adjust the age for retirement if the president doesn't embrace it. nobody is going to adjust cpi if the president doesn't embrace it, so he's showing some signs of leadership that's been lacking. i'm encouraged and that puts the burden on us to do the same thing. i think we will. >> on immigration, what stands in the way of a deal? >> we've got an agreement between labor and business about the request worker program, but we're revisiting that. we're hoping to get this thing done in the next couple of weeks is the guest worker program. high skill and low skill labor. how can you access it in an affordable fashion?

when you can't find a reasonable worker. if we're reasonable with 11 million, if we give them a pathway to citizenship that's earned and hard and fair, get in the back of the line, pay taxes, then the democratic party has to give us the guest worker program to help our economy. that's what we're arguing over. >> will marco rubio be there for you? >> marco rubio has been a game-changer in my party. he will be there only if the democrats will embrace a guest worker program and immigration system to replace the broken one and we gain our sovereignty back, securing our borders and having control of jobs. marco will be there. if we get the 11 million on our side it puts the pressure on the democrats to come up with a practice tick many guest worker program. a practical. marco has been indispensable. marco rubio will be there. >> one more political question before you go, and that is -- before i do that, let me get governor richardson's take on this, on the immigration fight, where you think it's going? >> i'm very pleased with the

work of the gang of eight. i'm pleased with this labor agreement between the afl-cio and the chamber of commerce. if they could get together, republicans and democrats can get together. but i have some significant worries, and i'm a hispanic-american. one, the path to citizenship. don't make it too burdensome. make it achievable. i've seen reports of this 13 years to get there. you know, let's be reasonable. >> the president wants it to be certain. right? >> yeah. and it not be conditional. number two, tying legalization -- the path to citizenship to border security, i was a border governor. you know, there has to be dramatic improvement in border security, but, tie, so many people coming in, and then you can legalize that is unacceptable. and, lastly, have some way -- have some way that the drop dead date as late as possible so as many of the 12 million that are here can get in. you know, i just think that this gang of eight work is important, and i hope it continues, but,

you know, it's also -- we have to recognize the humanity and the improvements on the economy of the millions of workers that are here and, also, the politics. >> let me get a final thought on this before we take a break. >> we're not being over run by canadians but people who live in poor and corrupt countries who come here to get work. i understand that. but you've got to regain our sovereignty, control our border, and there will be border security tied to a pathway to citizenship. there will be an earned pathway to citizenship. you're not going to break in the line. it will be available to everybody who works hard, pays a fine, passes a background check, but we are going to secure that border, and it will be tied to pathway to citizenship or there will be no deal. >> we'll talk after this break about presidential politics, waiting for hillary clinton. if she's the nominee can republicans beat her? >> i think after eight years of barack obama if things don't change the next democrat running for president will be in trouble. she will be a formidable candidate. i think her time as secretary of state is mixed. benghazi is yet to be told completely.

anybody underestimates her on the republican side would do so at peril. anybody can be beat in this country. >> all right, senator graham. thank you as always. good to have you here. we're going to come back after a break and joining me will be politico's maggie haberman who vote a viewer's guide to hillary clinton's future this week as well as our friend republican strategist mike murphy, and andrea will stick around. michele flournoy, bill richardson, thank you very much for being here. gy. where's it going to come from? ♪ that's why right here, in australia, chevron is building one of the biggest natural gas projects in the world. enough power for a city the size of singapore for 50 years. what's it going to do to the planet? natural gas is the cleanest conventional fuel there is. we've got to be smart about this. it's a smart way to go. ♪

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you can follow me all week lock on twitter @davidgregory. this morning i have some of my top reads of the week, include be president obama's election 2012 campaign manager jim messina. how he hopes to keep supporters mobilized in support of the president's second term agenda. in case you missed it, the

president's club will be reconvening later this month for the first time since 2009 when george w. bush's presidential library opens in dallas, texas. president obama will join four of his predecessors for the gathering. we will be there as well. our political roundtable is here. up next, we'll talk presidential politics as the hillary watch begins. ♪ no two people have the same financial goals. pnc works with you to understand yours and help plan for your retirement. visit a branch or call now for your personal retirement review.

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let's learn from the wisdom of every mother and father who teaches their daughters there is no limit on how big she can dream and how much she can achieve. this truly is the unfinished business of the 21st century, and it is the work we are called to do. i look forward to being your partner in all the days and years ahead. >> time to talk presidential politics now. 2016 is really not that far away. with us on our political roundtable mike murphy, politico senior political reporter maggie haberman and sticking around with us former governor of new mexico bill richardson and our own andrea mitchell. andrea, you were at that speech. the unfinished business of the 21st century, does that include electing the first female president who is hillary clinton? >> that was certainly the feeling in the room, and this was filled to the rafters at lincoln center. this was the second of two

speeches last week, and she was in both venues in her comfort zone. these are people, the women in the world summit, tina brown summit on friday. vital voices on tuesday which hillary clinton founded back 14 years ago. but in both places she was really surrounded by the love and affection of her base, of her supporters. tuesday night, interestingly, joe biden was on the stage, and he gave a rip roaring, crowd pleasing speech. she was more constrained, praising her longtime partner in all of this, but, boy, she let it rip on friday. there was no misunderstanding. if she decides she's running, she has everyone around her, james carville joining her superpac this week. the strongest signal yet. >> maggie haberman, you wrote something really interesting in politico, the viewer's guide to her intentions and the various benchmarks. i'll put it up on the screen. pay attention to these things. her business choices, cautious versus candor, the company she keeps, where her book tour takes her.

she's going to write a book this week talking about her time at the state department. the muzzle on the big dog, that being the former president, and her appearance. discuss. >> i'll work backwards, actually, starting with appearance, which maureen dowd hit on today in "the new york times" and it's absolutely right. you are seeing sort of a new hair style on hillary clinton. i got a lot of pushback on talk ing about that, but the reality is hillary clinton has dealt with this kind of thing for years. she has turned it into a joke, number one. number two, her book, they announced a book deal this week. where you see that tour take her i think is going to be very interesting. we saw a lot of presidential candidates this past cycle use book tours as sort of a masquerade for something else. she doesn't have to do that, but this is an easy pay for her to do a rollout and she did that with living history. and then lastly, i think, and there were others, but i think most important in terms of company she keeps, the mark penn factor gets talked about a lot. he ran her 2008 campaign. that campaign was very mismanaged by all accounts. i think the question is -- and that falls to her at the end of the day. did she learn from 2008? can she make different choices this time?

>> can she get david plouffe to run the campaign? who ran obama's campaign. right. as you step back, strengths and weaknesses. what do you see? . first, a laugh, do you think dolan jer might rob a bank? she's putting on highly produced videos, it's a perfect time to flip on gay marriage. if she's not running, somebody is there. maybe she will join that campaign because it's definitely going forward, i believe. now strength and weaknesses. if you read the d.c. press, it's all inevitable. well, ice haven't seen her this inevitable since the beginning of 2007, when she couldn't lose either. she's an incredibly strong candidate the particularly within the primary, and the crystal ball is foggy. on the one hand, it's kind of looking backwards. on the other hand, it's historic. she has a base, and she's been to the college of losing for president which is a very rare college. you learn a lot. so i think she is clearly the front-runner but i'm making no predictions. >> governor, you have run against her for president back

in 2008, and there is something going on about this era of inevitability. it's not just in the democratic circles. maureen dowd quoting james carville saying the following about hillary clinton -- she's gone to hell and back trying to be president, he's quoted as saying. she's paid her dues, to say the least. the old cliche is the democrats fall in love and republicans fall in line, but now republicans want a lot of people to run and they want to fall in love. and democrats don't want to fight. they just want to get behind hillary and go on from there, says someone who is obviously in her corner. how do you see it? >> well, first, she doesn't confide in me. so that's number one. number two, i think the odds of her running are about 100% to zero. i think she will. she's a formidable candidate. and i disagree with senator graham. she was a good secretary of state. she logged almost a million miles, you know, enormous challenges. she was a good senator. she can now run as somebody who is out of the shadow of the president. the first woman president. she's got activists all over the

country with her. she also has -- and now that i'm out of government -- i talk to a the lot of republicans. and -- and they like her. they like her strong performance. and i think you are going to see a formidable candidate. it's still too early, you know, anything can happen. but she's a major player. >> hillary clinton, i mean, andrea mitchell -- which we talk about her record as secretary of state, what senator graham alluded to, a mixed record on benghazi, in other aspects of her tenure. look, she still has to deal with the left on her support of the iraq war. she obviously rehabilitated herself in that respect in terms of certainly being seen as tough enough. what does she say? what is the most potent argument against her both within the party and by republicans? >> i have a question as to the

management sometime, because will she have learned the lessons from '08 as maggie has laid them out? what kind of campaign will she run? campaigns have changed dramatically since she ran. look, as you said, the david plouffe run campaign for obama. is she on top of all these technical and polling advantages which is really light years from what she did in '08 and did unsuccessfully. >> for all her strengths, she's in a bad position because the superwoman costume will be put on her and then spend four years lifting up locomotives and a o'malley or cuomo pops up and gets the endorsement of the boston left-handed mill writes, here is the narrative when you're the early front-runner, it's bad. >> there are generations of women -- i speak to the young women at the conference at both the tuesday and friday conferences.

the young women, and women -- my 9a-year-old mother next week -- god bless her, they want to see a woman in their lifetime. and this is a real aspiration and that is considering the demographics of our country, most voters are women. >> if you look at the demographic coalition that president obama put together, and we were talking about this on election night. now you can't count all of those and take them for granted, but that is the kind of coalition that if she does it right could be delivered right to hillary clinton to take into 2016. >> absolutely. it's hard for me to point to a state he got that she wouldn't get. >> hispanics, women, young people. >> exactly, and i think there is that sense of unfinished business that women voters do feel about her, about the country post-barack obama. i think there's two things. i think, you know, how do you be the future as opposed to the past? that's a real issue for her. that's more of a general election issue. in 2007 we knew barack obama existed. we just didn't think he was running.

>> when have we gone back, mike murphy. he told people it's hard to believe the country goes back and not forward generationally. >> right. it's going to be a trick because we're going to want to relitigate a lot of stuff. we'll hear the word benghazi 3.2 million times. instead of 1.4 million. >> how about iraq? >> it is tricky. while she is so strong in the primary, in a general election we make the mistake of identity politics. i used to run the campaign for my old friend christine todd whitman of new jersey. we won twice. moderate republican female candidate. we never carried in the exit polls the female vote. so people make a mistake about gender voting. it's more complicated than that. any democrat is going to have the presidential year, not the off year, but the presidential year demographic advantages they have. >> bill richardson, what about the vice president of the united states, joe biden, who, if you wake up in the morning, you know he's running. when i had him here last may, here was the question i asked. >> who's more likely to run for

president in 2016? you or second clinton? >> i think we may run as a team. i'm only joking, obviously. i don't know whether i'm going to run and hillary doesn't know if she's going to run. >> there's a lot of truth in humor, mr. vice president. >> and the rich laugh. the difficulty here, you're not likely to see the kind of primary fight that you saw between obama and clinton, are you? wouldn't biden be very careful about doing that? >> i think biden would run. he's always wanted to be president. he's been a good vice president. he was key in that whole economic agreement that was made. he's done a lot of foreign policy. he's in very good physical shape. so i don't think there's going to be an age issue. and he has ambition. he has the fire in the belly. when you run for president, you have to realize it's about four years of your life every day in a different spot. and biden has that sort of eye of the tiger. i don't think he would defer to secretary clinton.

the relationship is very good. but, you know, when you run for president, you have to just do it. >> i'm fond of him as a republican, just his personality. i think he's a patriot, but he is the atomic clock of second finance. and i don't think that's going to change. i don't think he'll win a democratic primary. >> i don't know that he can run if she's running. if she's a declared candidate, they have the same base, a lot of the same donors, and he is beloved within the party and look how he pushed the envelope with you, david, on gay marriage, and forced the president into that situation. he's really been on the cutting edge of violence against women. he has everything going for him except that hillary clinton -- >> he's not a star. >> let me get to a star in the democratic party. pamela harris, the attorney general of california, and the president underlined that this week by pointing out -- here she is speaking at the convention, by the way, and i believe we have the exact

quote of what the president said in a speech this week paying tribute to her, making a point you have to be careful to, first of all, say she is brilliant and she is dedicated and she is tough, and she is exactly what you'd want in anybody who is administering the law and making sure that everybody is getting a fair shot. but what he really wanted to say she also happens to be the best looking attorney general in the country and had to apologize for that, maggie. >> should have stopped. what you have to say, you have to be careful what to say. women candidates, women elected officials tend to be judged more based on appearance than not. obama has these awkward moments. he does personally like her. >> they've been friends for a long time. >> and michelle obama has been part of that friendship. he also says these awkward things about men and nobody complains. he said that about his interior secretary. he said and look at that good-looking guy in the front row. we found the tape of him doing that friday. >> i'm sorry.

. people at the white house would be on fire. i think he read a biden speech by mistake. should he have apologized? >> i think he did. i think it's political correct insanity but there's a business of blowing this stuff out of proportion which is much harder on republicans and democrats. >> you know, maybe i'm a neanderthal, but i thought that the president's comment was harmless. it was a political speech. he talked about her accomplishments, he talked about her competence. and then he threw in that line. up know, you're at a political event. what? are you going to read her resume? political correctness has reached a point where it's out of control. am i going to be criticized for instance if i say that a movie star like scarlett johansson is beautiful? are they going to go after me? probably. >> check twitter. we'll get back to you. all right. we're going to get a break in here. i want to come back and actually switch gears and talk

about the economy and jobs. a bad report came out on friday as the president is pushing a new budget framework. we have cnbc's mr. "mad money" himself jim cramer joining the conversation right after this short break. etes... your doctor will say get smart about your weight. that's why there's glucerna hunger smart shakes. they have carb steady, with carbs that digest slowly to help minimize blood sugar spikes. [ male announcer ] glucerna hunger smart. a smart way to help manage hunger and diabetes. tens of thousands of dollars in hidden fees on their 401(k)s?! go to e-trade and roll over your old 401(k)s to a new e-trade retirement account. none of them charge annual fees and all of them offer low cost investments. e-trade. less for us. more for you.

w re back with the rountable we're back with the roundtable and jim cramer is here. great to have you in washington and to talk about the economy. let's look at the numbers here, the unemployment right now 7.6%, only 88,000 jobs created. you look at the context in terms of recent months, we have that chart as well. you know, you've got much fewer than we've seen. what's going on? >> this is stunning. stunning. i think a lot of it had to do with fear mong erg. remember, we had peggy noonan on. the president did make people feel everything is going to shut

down in the country because of the sequester. ceos were scared, the small business people held back, bankers would tell you that. only ben bernanke, fed chief, got this right. he seemed to understand that the country's hiring is really coming back down. >> but why? is it the sequester? >> yes. it was fear that the sequester would cause massive layoffs. go back in time. a month ago, what was the rhetoric of the white house? it was, look, this is a really big deal. everyone has to just stop and consider how bad this is going to be for the economy. the ceos have considered it and said, you know what, we have to hold back. >> right. so mats whatting with the consumer? we know that the housing market is doing better. we know the stock market is going gangbusters. you look at those three things, what's holding back the animal spirit of economic recovery? >> i think a lot of what we're worried about is just the sense that if we spend any money on commercial real estate, oil and gas had been going strong. that pulled back. these are the big projects. these are the things that put lots of people to work, and they're just not happening.

i've got to tell you, when you speak with the bankers in this country, they all want to lend, they say they want to lend, but they're afraid they'll lose money on every loan. the federal government is saying, we know that this kmip is anemic. this economy is anemic. the only thing that's really helping is overseas money. people don't want to have their money in europe. rich people don't want their money in europe. japan this week, are people pulling all their money out of the local markets and coming here, and that's got to be harnessed. >> and the debate about what the fed does now? the fed is not likely to change easing. it's going to keep its foot on the pedal here and make sure rates are low and that it's buying assets. >> there was a parlor game about when the federal reserve chief will end this because the economy is so strong. only the fed chief seems to know that it isn't. if president obama wants to do something that would please wall street, please main street, please small and large businessmen, this week, reappoint ben bernanke. say he is our guy because he gets that there's very bad unemployment in this country.

he's got a heart, too. bernanke is an amazing man. he does not get enough credit. >> what about the budget, mike murphy? is that a piece of it as well? you heard lindsey graham say he sees a grand bargain in our future. he's putting revenues on the table. how much of an effect does that have on the economy? >> i think jim's right. the psychology has been all wrong. the message of build a bunker is not how you change the psychology of a troubled economy. two things, i think. let the republicans keep pulling him right to spending cuts because that's the policy solution the country needs and i'll give him a little credit. he's read the clinton handbook and started to triangulate. a symbolic offer has begun. the more heat he takes on the left the closer he is to a real deal. that's a win for everybody. second, put the white house behind the keystone pipeline. no ambiguity. just go. those two messages that the president is going to become a fiscal center on energy policy. i think that would get the economy going fast. >> there is a mixed message. if they are too tight on spending cut side they reinforce the very problem as jim cramer has diagnosed it, at least in

terms of the sequester, having frozen things up, and also in that job number, and jobs numbers month to month, you know better than anyone, bounce around, but the participation rate is at historic lows which means people are giving up long-term unemployment. >> maggie, the other thing we know what the president wants is more spending. >> right. >> he'll talk about cuts but he wants more spending in infrastructure, to restore some of the education cuts. he wants to become a jobs president, let's not forget. >> yes, that's correct. >> we're talking hillary clinton, if she's coming off an obama administration where the jobless recovery is, in effect, taking place, that's not what she wants. >> not what she wants and actually goats a point that i wanted to make before. i think if the economy does not turn around, i don't agree that hillary clinton is 100% running. if the economy is not great in two years, two and a half years, it's much less likely that she runs. it's harder to sell herself on that. that is a tougher road for her. i agree in terms of what the president wants, absolutely. >> i think, david, if the president gets immigration reform, and it looks like it might happen sooner than later,

and he has come forth with a serious budget proposal angering his democratic base by saying, you know, we're ready to look at medicare and social security reductions and cuts, and then saying that he is somebody that wants to bring people together, he's going to have a very good year, and it's going to be a good year for democrats. i see -- i'm out in new mexico, the economy is getting a little better, slowly. there's more confidence, better housing, more investment. and then hopefully we look at an energy policy, which i think is desperately needed. >> that's what you're shaking your head about as well. not shaking, you're nodding. >> you want to put 60,000 people to work in this country in four weeks because these jobs are there, keystone pipeline. but this is a fossil fuels versus greens debate. why do i say the pipeline works? these pipelines have been the

creators, the largest creators of jobs in the last four years. you may hate fossil fuel. you may think it's ridiculous to be able toll have it soap that oil and gas are in charge of hiring in this country, but we've got tons of oil and gas in the wrong places. you put people to work on pipelines, 6 -- $60,000 is the minimum that you pay a pipeline worker, you put people to work all over this country. that's what needs to happen. >> the bottom line question before, jim, as well, are we out of recession? are we in the midst of a real robust recovery? >> we are in a profits recovery. you're going to start hearing companies report earnings beginning this week. many of the companies won't have great top line, won't do a lot of selling but because they're not hiring -- i'm doing a study right now of 30 stocks on the dow jones -- you are going to see negatives, literally they've done -- they had more people working four years ago than now. that's a big problem in the we need big business to bring the jobs back and one of the secrets we can do whip it is

that oil and gas, so cheap in this country that it pays to manufacture here, not in china, not in vietnam, not in thailand. bring the jobs back. the president has to help them. >> if the president can inoculate himself on the green and environmentalist movement, because john kerry, who has sterling credentials with that movement, is the one who not only has to make this decision. this is a state department decision even though it will obviously come out of the white house. so kerry, if he's the one making this decision, it's tough for him, will at least help the president with that part of the debate. >> unemployment thumbs so much better six months from now if they would say we have to make a bargain on fossil fuels. it's bad, we hate them, but we got to make that bargain. >> he's heading to a legacy of economic failure. we've been in this for five years. but if he wants to have a great second term, the price, which i think is a small price, is to do what most pragmatic politicians do. cut loose your basened go big. energy, big fiscal deal, a lot of painful medicare cuts. the bottom line, the fiscal --

the entitlement reform is not a bargaining chip. he has to address that. >> speaking of that, governor, he's meeting with republicans again this week. remember the last time a few weeks ago, he met with a group of republican senators. he'll do it again. he'll want to, no doubt, talk about the budget. talk about immigration which is a budding deal and about guns. do you think there's anything to what mike is saying? will he cut the base loose? >> no, he won't cut the base loose. i think the base really recognizes that the fiscal situation is a dominant issue in our country, and that we have got to find ways to not just reduce spending but deal with this entitlement reform. at the same time i think the president is going to move forward on an immigration bill which, you know, is economically a jobs driver. >> true. >> and so what we have here, i think, is a scenario where a grand bargain is possible. we reduce the deficit. i don't think the sequester, getting $85 billion out of the

economy has been at least out in the hinterlands that devastating. it is the federal workers who were great, et cetera. i think a grand bargain, a successful second term in the offing, now some foreign policy initiatives, latin america, mexico, north korea, iran, i just think he tackles those and he's going to have a very strong second term. >> maggie, the other thing coming to a head, of course, is the gun debate. >> uh-huh. >> it was interesting. i spoke to jim messina for press pass this week who ran his campaign, and he recognizes it would be a tough vote but he put both democrats and republicans on note for 2014. here's a portion of what he said. >> look, i understand there is real -- this is a tough political vote. i'm from montana. we're an organization that says we change the politics on the ground and say to members of congress, look, there's real support for these things and, david, there's a political price to be paid if you oppose it.

i understand tough political votes in washington but, look, if i was a member of congress, i would not want to go home to my district and in 2014 election, defend voting against 90% of my constituents. david, what issue do you and i work on where there's 90% support? >> he's finishing up saying what issue do you get 90% approval on? is this a 2014 issue, democrats and republicans, depending on how they vote here? >> i think it is absolutely and if the white house really wanted to move on this would have capitalized after newtown. there's a general feeling they missed their window. >> is it missing the window or going for too much? the assault weapons ban, magazine clip ban. >> they got out the old dianne feinstein and started playing that record, fast, one bullet, right the issue of the gun show loophole and background checks. they got greedy. when you win a big election, you get cocky and greedy. i think that's the mindset of the white house. the new chief of staff may be changing that.

i think they blew an opportunity. they are looking -- maggie is right. they have trouble in 2014 in the senate. it's a different electorate. a lot of republican states. people like max baucus. you're not going to hear that speech for baucus. and so they're looking for wedge votes. for 2014. so the debate may move back to politics. >> do you see it passing? >> at this stage they are at risk of not even getting the straw purchasing piece and the background check, which is so surprising and the american people are so far in front of the legislators. this is the fact of redistricting and the fact that these are congress people for life and they don't feel the pressure. >> all right. we'll take a break here, be back in just a moment. we're out of time for today. i know what you're thinking...

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we're out of tim we're out of time for today. thanks to each and every one of you for your perspective this morning. that is all for today.e we'll be back next week. if it's sunday, it's "meet the press." \ s 3 p. m. \ e

country.