afternoon. chris matthews and "hardball" is right next. politically unbalanced. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews in philadelphia tonight. let me start with this. i've learned one thing about politicians over the years. they are who you think they are. it's always the same for me. i meet a politician i've been reading an, been watching on tv. i believe they're not the person i've read about and watched. then after i really get to know them, guess what, i discover they're precisely the person i thought they were by reading about them and watching an them on television. well case in point, mitt romney. were you really surprised to hear him talk about the 47% that are living off the rest of us? did that really sock yhock you hear him talk in private like an economic elitist? case in point, president obama,

did it stun you to hear him talk about those people in states like pennsylvania who cling to their gun and religion. case if point, mitch mcconnell. what did you really think when you heard him say the way he intends to get re-elected is to hammer anyone who might be talking about running against him? any newspaper that might cause him trouble along the way. does it surprise you, he, the senate republican leader who said his number one goal following president obama's inauguration was to destroy him? does it surprise you that he would be sitting there listening to an op researcher talk about a possible opponent, ashley judd, being emotionally unbalanced? tonight we learn from yet another type, yet another tape, rather, what it's like to be in a room with a big name politician and to learn firsthand, again, that they're pretty much the way you figured them. i love these tapes, by the way. i hope they're legal because i think they're great. i'm joined right now by nbc news political director chief white house correspondent, chuck todd, and the "huffington post's" howard fineman. you've got this louisville

background. tell me how the women of the state of kentucky will respond to this new nastiness from mitch mcconnell. what will they think of him talking about a woman they know of, the fact she's emotionally unbalanced and enjoying that information and how he might use it? how can this help this guy? >> oh, it doesn't help this guy. and i don't think it's just with women, chris. i think it's with all kentuckians and i lived and worked there for five years and i've kept in close touch with kentucky. this just reaffirms and deepens the image of mitch mcconnell as a ruthless, cold-blooded politician who will say and do anything to win election. that might not make him fundamentally different from lot of other people, but to kentuckians, that's always been a problem with mitch mcconnell. they both -- they sort of respect on one level his ruthlessness, but they don't like him personally, and it's

one reason why he's never won a runaway election in kentucky. he's always had to take the lowest road and always tried to bring everybody else in the campaign down to the lowest road. and this in a way functionally is the best example i can think of of it. >> let me go to chuck on this. i'd like to stick on this point, before we get to the legality of how this tape was done, because i'm not sure we have that answer. but chuck, mcconnell has been in office for a long time. i always figure an incumbent ought to be positive. let the other guy take the shots. the other woman take the shots. here he is coming in with 36%. going right on offense. >> well, it is, but if you follow mcconnell's history here, and i tell you, howard knows this really well, he's basking in the glory of the louisville cardinals today. >> i am, indeed. >> he knows his kentucky politics, his kentucky sports very well. the history of mitch mcconnell, this is how he rolls. he's a tough as nails politician. he runs tough campaigns. he's never been enormously popular in the state of

kentucky. even in his biggest victories. they've always just come where he slightly underperformed where a generic republican in kentucky should perform. so in many ways i think this is the way they determine what's their best shot at winning. >> yeah, jim bunning was an s.o.b. this guy isn't a very nice fellow here. let's take a look at the top of the audiotape. we're allowed to show it. where senator mitch mcconnell sets the tone, explains any opposition coming from anywhere will be stomped by his crowd quickly. >> this is the whac-a-mole period of the campaign when anybody sticks their head up, do them out. >> then a person identified in the "mother jones" transcript as the presenter describes the load, opposition research they've got on ashley judd. >> presenter, the first person we'll focus on, ashley judd.

basically refer to her as sort of the oppo research situation where there's a -- >> you have the emotionally imbalanced part, howard, back to you. tell me what this says about voters. they're going to know about it tomorrow morning and tonight. >> well, i think mitch mrk come, as he said, was pursuing the whac-a-mole -- >> explain. >> just like in that arcade game, you take out your big rubber mallet and hit an opposing target over the head with it to make them go back in their hole. that's what mitch mcconnell's operating theory has always been. they were preemptively trying to do this to anybody who might dare to run against mitch mcconnell last year in his senate re-election race. >> now it's ashley judd who has pulled out of the race. let's watch what he says. >> don't forget, chris, i reported in the "huffington post" a number of weeks ago that she had been telling some other

people that she was in. but at the end she changed her mind. i think one reason might have been, even though if she didn't know exactly what was being said behind closed doors, she knew the kind of race it was going to be publicly and in terms of putting her own family through it, in terms of the type of the campaign it was going to be, i think she may have decided for, among other reasons, that it really wasn't worth the personal trauma that might have resulted. >> well, here she is. here's the presenter. i guess the opp researcher presenting the dirtties, scott, saying what he has to say here. i want chuck to respond to this. >> she's clearly, this sounds extreme, but she is emotionally unbalanced. i mean, it's been documented. >> ashley judd replied with a statement that reads, "this is yet another example of the politics of personal destruction that embody mitch mcconnell and are pervasive if washington,

d.c. we expected nothing less of mitch mcconnell and his camp than to take a personal struggle such as depression which many americans cope with on a daily basis and turn it into a laughing matter." i think this is devastating. because, hucchuck, the fact shed this two decades ago. she had those 40-some days in treatment. it isn't like the eagleton thing where it's a press disclosure, an expose. she publicly explained that she'd had this illness. all these years later they're bringing it back and pretending it's in the present tense. she is emotionally unbalanced. >> i tell you what mcconnell aides will say. i've asked them questions about this today. folks that were in that room. their defenses of this is, we were doing nothing different than any campaign does in preparing against an opponent. you gather all the information you potentially have that potentially might be a negative that you wouldn't -- that it wouldn't be fair to judge them unless they made the strategic decision to then use it

publicly. and that their defense on this is, they did not make the decision to go with this line of attack. because i'm with you, chris. i think that this is -- this type of attack is a double-edged sword and would alienate voters and not think that this was a below the belt charge and that -- let's say -- let's war game the campaign. they decide to go with this, they try to bring this up in some way or the other, then they own the idea that they're not se sympathetic to folks that have depression issues. >> chuck, they've lost their virginity. >> i agree. you're right. i'm just telling -- >> any opponent can attack him for this. >> i'm just telling you what their defense of getting caught on tape saying this -- >> i understand. >> -- is it a reminder. >> things have changed about emotional disease. i remember we -- i when through it with eagleton. and lee atwater would laugh on the other side about guy being

hooked up on jumper cables. yuck, yuck, yuck. you can't talk like that anymore. >> chris, that's why when you asked me the question about how this would play among women, that's why i said it wasn't just women, it was everybody in kentucky for precisely reason that you say. the world is changing. the world has changed on immigration, the world has changed on gun control, the world is changing on this kind of thing as well. and if allison grimes, for example, decides to get in this race in kentucky as a young woman, or even if ben chandler decides to run, they can point out the way mitch mcconnell's people and mitch mcconnell, himself, were talking about this thing. and the whac-a-mole image which is so vivid could come back to hurt mitch mcconnell because it crystalizes the way a lot of people in the state think about it. >> who wants bludo representing his state?

some thug guy pounding these things down. let's go to the question. tricky question. this legality question, how we get these tapes in our hands. there wasn't much of a question about how we got the tape of the president, clinging to guns and religion. that hurt him a bit. there was, of course, the mitch mcconnell, a put-away punch for him. this one, what's the state of the art in terms of our ability to play the tape? we were given permission to do it. what are the standards now in the media and the law about these tapes? >> well, if we didn't -- we didn't ask for the tape to be made. we didn't have anything to do with it. this is another news organization that did this. so, you know, assuming we're not being gratuitous about it, when talking about the story writ at large, we feel comfortable dealing with some parts of this tape. not the entire thing. not certain parts of the tape. but chris, i think that we got to remember here, there's a chance this really is a crime. that this tape was made

illegally. this is the way the law is. >> what would that be? >> if nobody in that room -- >> what would that crime be? >> it's a federal crime. if nobody in that room -- it is a federal crime to tape somebody and release the -- without anybody's permission in that room. >> okay. >> unless -- now, if somebody in that room is the leaker and knew, you know, it would have been perfectly legal for them to record that and not tell anybody else about the recording, in the state of kentucky that's legal, it would have been legal. if nobody in that room knew they were being recorded, then a crime, then this broke a federal law and that's why the mcconnell campaign has asked the fbi to look into this. they are confident, i've talked to every aide i could find, that was in that room, they are confident it is nobody among their staff that is a mole or anything like that. >> can i also add, chris -- >> this afternoon senator mcconnell, we have to get this point of view here. >> right. >> i know that's politics. he talked about that -- also stuck strictly to his talking

points. a reporter asked him a question. he ignored the question. here's his spiel. >> right. >> as you know last month my wife's ethnicity was attacked by a left-wing group in kentucky and apparently they also bugged my headquarter ps. so i think that pretty well sums up way the political left is operating in kentucky. >> is it fair game for you to question someone's mental health or their religious sensibilities in a strategy session like that? >> yeah, as i indicated, last month they were attacking my wife's ethnicity, and apparently also unbeknownst to us at the time, they were bugging our headquarters. quite a nixonian move. this is what you get from the political left in america these days. >> mcconnell's reference to an attack on his wife stems from a tweet by the liberal group, progress kentucky, the tweet implies that his wife's asian heritage may have something to do with kentucky jobs moving to china. the liberal group

apologies and removed the tweets. saying "we've always said the left would stop at nothing to attack senator mcconnell but nixonian tactics to bug campaign headquarters is above and beyond." "as the story makes clear, we were recently provided the tape by a source who wished to be anonymous. we weren't involved in the making of the tape but published the story on the tape due to its obvious newsworthiness. it's our understanding the tape was not a product of a watergate-style bugging operation. we cannot comment beyond it." howard, the logic of this is, and it fits much within the logic of all these tapings. someone taped it for perhaps innocent reasons and decided two months later, this was in february, now it's april, that they had some sort of ax to grind. if it was a professional bugging, some little bug stuck in a lamp or something or in the wall somewhere, why wouldn't they have used it immediately if they had done it on purpose? just to hurt somebody? it doesn't seem logical to hold

it for two months. howard? >> i think that's a good question, chris. and i talked to david corn today, and he stressed, again, that this was not, to his understanding -- he did a lot of reporting on this, himself. all he can say is it was not a watergate-style bugging operation. i'm sure he's right about that. what else is involved, i do not know. but what i would say is this. that mitch mcconnell has been around for a long, long time. democrats have tried to take him out again and again. they've come tantalizingly close but have failed. and what mcconnell has succeeded in doing in kentucky is bringing everybody into his style of play. in other words, the mayhem that we're seeing here a year and a half before election day is the kind of environment that he knows how to operate in, that he's helped create in the state of kentucky in modern times.

not that politics was innocent before. but this is rough, tough stuff. this is the environment that he knows how to play in and knows how to win in. and it -- i suppose it's ironic to many people that he would be complaining about nixonian tactics. but this is the world that he knows. >> as they say -- yeah, chuck? >> he has no evidence, you know, he made this accusation. >> that's true. >> they have no evidence, the mcconnell campaign has no evidence that there's anybody did any bugging and, in fact, i have -- i talked to an aide who admitted that they had their headquarters, when they found out about this yesterday, they hired a security firm, they swept the campaign headquarters and they found no bug. >> they're probably better not to have found one because it reminded me of the 1986 episode involving karl rove when he's alleged to have bugged his own office. >> pretty sure that's a movie. >> called in the fbi. >> you know what i think? i think that mitch mcconnell runs well, to use a kentucky term, in the mud.

he's the kind of horse that wants it to rain the night before the kentucky derby so he can slosh through it. >> excellent reference, chris. >> by the way, everything he said about watergaets, nixon, everything else is a smoke screen. the issue is the word spoken in that room. he has not denied a word of it. thank you, chuck todd, thank you, howard fineman. coming up, rare good news for the gun safety side. actually good news. democrats now think they may be able to at least get to first base, at least get to debate this issue on the floor. we're going to speak to a sister, by the way, tonight, of a teacher who was murdered in newtown, connecticut, who traveled to washington to talk to the president last night. also, rick santorum says the republican party will never, never give in on gay marriage. the conservative heritage foundation, by the way, is coming up for new reasons for republicans to oppose immigration reform. we'll see. we'll see. is the republican party stuck in the mud, to use my expression? stephen colbert lands an interview with bill clinton. this is going to be fun. >> here are the rules. if you start filibustering, i will cut you off.

because we all know i could ask you how you're doing and 15 minutes later you're talking about microloans to sumatra. >> ka bare got clinton to open up a twitter account sort of. these people knocking on doors on capitol hill, the families of the victims, could actually do some good. and this is "hardball," the place for politics. all your important legal matters in just minutes. protect your family... and launch your dreams. at legalzoom.com we put the law on your side. and launch your dreams. the people of bp made a commitment to the gulf., and every day since, we've worked hard to keep it. today, the beaches and gulf

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welcome back to "hardball." one day after the president's soulful speech up in connecticut when he urged congress to allow the victims of newtown to get a

vote on background checks, the vice president put more pressure on republicans. >> now it's time for every man and woman in the senate to stand up and say, aye or nay, i'm for or i'm against. the tragedy the that traumatized the nation and caught the attention of the entire world, after all the thinking, debate and discussion, with overwhelming majorities of the american people, thinking the proposals the president put forward make absolute sense, the climax of this tragedy could be we're not even going to get a vote? >> on thursday we will get the first big test on whether any heway can be head on background checks in the senate. senate majority leader harry reid said today he would submit a bill this week, that's thursday. if republicans allow that bill to proceed at least to a debate, that would get us to first base, of course. there's still a long way to go. republicans could still block a move to actually vote on the bill, itself. 14 republican senators including minority leader mitch mcconnell have threatened to block a

debate on gun legislation. even a debate. it became clear today the republican party is far from united on this issue. at least seven republican senators and there could be more oppose a fill buibuster to oppo- to block at least having a debate. in fact, the spokesman for senator tom coburn put it this way. "he will vote for the motion to proceed. eschewing this debate is a stupid party policy." will the republicans act like the stupid party on guns? blanche lincoln is a former democratic senator from arkansas. and sam stein is political editor at the "huffington post." i want to start with sam on the reporting here. it looks to me like there's a good chance they will have 60 votes, to at least begin debate two days from now. >> yeah, that's about right. from our count, we have about eight republican senators who are leaning very strongly to openly supporting the first cloture vote which would allow you to go to debate and amendment. harry reid may lose two members of his own caucus on that vote. max baucus and mark pryor are

noncommittal at this point. that gives gun control advocates a bit more time to craft the legislative language of the background check bill. like you said, it doesn't guarantee passage. they still have to close the debate period in order to get to actual vote on passage. >> senator, you were there, explain this to people out there, this cloture, this filibuster game now. you can filibuster a bill even before people start talking about it. then you can filibuster it again once you don't like the direction of the debate and might lead to passage, then you can filibuster to make sure there's no vote, is that right? >> almost every move they take requires 60 votes to be able to continue the process of moving forward. toward an ultimate not only debate then a vote on the actual bill. for the life of me i can't understand why with all that we have seen and experienced and the families that have been hurt that they would not want to have a debate on this issue.

it's amazing. >> why do you think, i mean, you're political, you know why they would do this. how do they benefit from having it on their permanent record that they opposed any debate or any voting on anything to do with gun safety in the wake of what happened in newtown, in connecticut? >> well, because there's a real effort out there. i mean, there's a lot of money being spent out in, you know, marginal states. states like my home state of arkansas. it's very different than when i voted for an assault weapons ban in 1994. 1994 was completely different. you didn't have the kind of resources that, you know, these groups have. i mean, i've worked with the nra before. my husband's a lifetime member. you know, i've got some friends there. but i knew that the assault weapons ban in '94 was the right thing to do. it was just a ban on domestic production. but the fact is is they've got real legs on the ground out

there. and it's really tough. it's way different. and their mediums are so different now. they've got everything. from, you knows, the money in resources for television, but you've got twitter, you've got facebook, you've got all of these different things whereas before most of it was postcard campaigns and some television ads. so it's tough against candidates in those areas. >> these are the real hardliners of the hardliners. they're opposed to even the idea having a debate. empb talking about it. this morning congressman peter king, by the way, he supports expanding gun background checks. he was asked what his republican colleagues were r afraid of. it's an interesting response. he supports background checks. here's peter king. >> even if i did not support that legislation, i would say let this come to a debate. this is an issue which has grabbed hold of the american people. it's an issue which i think has to be resolved. even if it doesn't go down the way i want it to, i think the american people are entitled to a debate. and to me, to use senate rules to block a debate on an issue of this importance is just wrong.

to cut it off almost makes it as if these senators are afraid of something. i don't know what they're afraid of. if they are so sure of their position, let it come to a debate. >> well, johnny is not afraid. this morning he said background checks deserved a vote. let's watch him from georgia. >> i'll speak for myself on that question. there's no ambivalence on the gun issue. i think everybody knows what the issues are. we have not seen the final draft of the legislation that was produced, i understand, last night. but i think it deserves a vote up or down. >> i think that's a great question, sam, what are they afraid of? i want to go to sam stein. what are they afraid of? i'll get to you, senator. what are they afraid of, these senators? why would they want to have a vote to prevent a vote? >> it's a good question. what's ended up happening is there's a ton of misinformation put out there. boogeyman of sorts mind colleagues on the hill quoted republicans today saying the proposed background check legislation could be an unconstitutional infringement on

second amendment rights. well, if that's the case, what of the current system that already exists? is that unconstitutional? i hear no one saying we should get rid of that. that's one thing that's not worthy. the other thing is as the senator noted, the dialogue changed so dramatically not just from 1994 but from 2004. we were going through old clips today of george w. bush when the assault weapons ban was set to lapse in 2004, saying he supported it. during his 2000 and 2004 campaigns, his program was for instantaneous background checks. can you imagine a republican today saying they want instantaneous backgrounds checks? i think the dialogue has changed. think the republican party has changed. of all the contributing factors i think redistricting is a real contributor to that. >> okay. senator, your thoughts about why they would oppose a vote on a vote. >> well, i think basically there's a small part of their constituency of their supporters that are not rational about this issue. but when it comes to, you know, what you have to do to be able to get your voice in there, i

used to go to the nra meetings. you know, there were some people in there that didn't want to listen to me and that, you know, were going to not agree with me, but there were rational people in those meetings that understood that, you know, even then, i mean, we had one of the shootings in jonesboro, arkansas, back then. you know, they knew that something had to be done and we had to take reasonable steps. so i think there are people out there, but it's hard to get to them. >> i think fathers teach their kids how to use guns very responsibly. i think every family does that. they all do. which is to teach a kid not to aim and to hold it at a certain way, to carry it in a certain way. not to carry it loaded. this gun safety thing is part of your family training. i don't understand why they're against it being par of ot of o country. thank you, senator. >> thank you. >> it's great to have you on. thanks very much, sam. up next, stephen colbert's big interview with bill clinton. this is going to be fun. this is "hardball," the place for politics. [ male announcer ] i've seen incredible things.

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ha! back to "hardball." now to the sideshow. first, clinton and colbert come together. stephen colbert interviewed bill clinton at a clinton global initiative event this weekend. colbert kicked it off with some ground rules. >> here are the rules. if you start filibustering, i will cut you off. because we all know i could ask you how you're doing and 15 minutes later you're talking about microloans to sumatra. second, we are miles away politically from each other, so if i find myself agreeing with you because of the famed clinton charisma, i will continue the

interview staring into a hand mirror. because you are the medusa of political persuasiveness. do you understand? >> i do. >> okay. >> i don't think clinton liked that too much based upon his face. that out of the way, rules out of the way, colbert broke the news he started a twitter account for the former president. >> president clinton was taken. william jefferson clinton was taken. but pres billy jeff was available. would you like to break into the 21st century right now and send your first tweet? 140 characters or less. >> just spent -- >> just spent -- >> amazing time with colbert.

>> sound good? >> is -- question -- is he sane? >> is he sane? >> he is cool. >> you got some more left. anything else? you don't have to. >> no, no, i'm done. >> you're done? >> he could run for president tomorrow morning. anyway, there's a good chance colbert still has a stake in that new twitter feed, though. the head of it reads, "i am president william jefferson billy jeff rodham clinton. stephen colbert is my bff." recent tweets from that account include "now that i'm no longer president, i've been downgraded to air force seven." up next, conservatives seem to think the way back to power is to keep on alienating gays. that's smart, and that's ahead. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. [ male announcer ] you are a business pro.

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i'm bertha coombs with your

cnbc market wrap. the dow gains 59 points to close at a fresh all-time high. the s&p adds 5. the nasdaq is up 15. one stock missing out on today's rally, jcpenney. shares sliding 12% after the retailer said former ceo mike alman will return to lead the company. as for economic data, wholesale inventories posted their biggest decline in over a year in february, as petroleum stocks fell. economists had expected a gain. that's it from cnbc. we're first in business worldwide. now back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." in the fast 30 days, of course, we've seen a tidal wave of democrats publicly supporting same-sex marriage. republicans, however, have been largely well resisted to change on the subject. no matter what the demographics of the 2012 election told them. and rick santorum, winner of the

2012 iowa caucuses eventually, and clarion of the cultural right told "the des moines register" today in effect the more things change the more the gop will stay the same. "the republican party is not going to change on this issue. in my opinion, it would be suicidal if it did." santorum may run again. that kind of talk is the catnip to republican primary voters but may not play well beyond the party's shrinking base. michael steele is the former chair of the republican national committee. and michael feldman was an adviser to vice president al gore. let's go to these -- let's go to this question. michael, if you were still chair of the republican national committee, what would you say about the issue of marriage equality? that's the phrase people use today. they usually say marriage equality. >> yeah. no, i think probably what i would advocate is what a lot of us hope the supreme court does. and that is let this be resolved in the states, in the communities where people live. they decide for themselves. you know, where they come down

on this issue. it should no t be, i think, a federal issue. should not be something that's handed down from the federal government for given the intrinsic nature of it, the value that people ascribe to marriage. and certainly the evolution on this subject. i think as a party, we should recognize the changing winds, the prevailing winds, but that doesn't necessarily mean, chris, that we step back from something that many of us fundamentally believe within the party. so it's going to be a delicate balancing act. there's no doubt about that. i think -- >> i don't think he can get away with that. let me just challenge you on the consistency there. >> sure. >> how do you get away with not taking a position on doma, how do you avoid taking a position on whether people who are married out in california, for example, legally, or any other of the states who have legal marriage, can not have the benefits of marriage? how do you deny them those benefits if they're married? >> it's not a question of denying anybody anything in that respect. the federal government at the

appropriate time will make the decision to do whatever resolution with respect to federal benefits it deems necessary. but the states should be empowered, as tenth amendment allows, for them to make their decision on these issues. >> i don't see -- let me go back to mike on this. i know you're a democrat, but i think it's hard for your party not to dump on the republicans if they come out against doing something, the unequainequality someone living in california, anywhere else, since they live together, take responsibility for children together in many cases not to have the normal benefits of survivor benefits, hospital visits, all the things, tax questions, all to their advantage, but they can't take advantage to it under the law unless you do something about it. >> look, absolutely all that is true. leaving it up to the states won't do. in 10 or 15 years, chris, we're going to be looking back and this and wondering what we're all talking about. this is the civil rights issue of our time, marriage equality is. short term, the republican party, there's a battle for the heart and soul of the republican party taking place. what rick santorum said the other day is the opening for the

primary fight for 2016. he may be out of touch for the american people on this issue but not out of touch with the energy and the base of the republican party. and that fight is going to go on straight through the republican nominating process. i mean, michael knows better than i do that division within the republican party is real and what rick santorum is doing now is staking out ground early on the issue of gay marriage. >> i agree with that. >> the people in your party who are the crazeiests, the mourdock, the aikens. they are the emblems more and more of your party. you can't say these are my crazy aunts in the closet, don't open that door. the democrats are going to open that door. i know you're laughing. they're going to say, look who's in here, it's rick santorum. >> they're not crazy people. why is it that people cannot have a conviction that is genuine and real to them that even though you disagree with it, it doesn't mean that they're crazy -- >> because they're running for national office. let me ask you this. do you think it helps to have

these people in your party is. >> you mean to tell me everybody democrat you've come across in the democratic party is supportive of gay marriage? no. i don't think that's true. it's not reflective of the country. this is a 51%/52% issue. 48% of people out there at least in the last poll have not come around, have not evolved as you hoped the that they will. maybe they do, chris. look, i think we're -- >> michael, i mefr made the mistake of saying i'd represent an entire political party like you did. you were willing to go out there, i represent the republican -- i wouldn't represent all the democrats in this country in a million years. there are crooks out there. why would i want that job? >> you have to understand my chairmanship, i tried to embrace all those different views and say this is part in parcel of what makes us republicans. i didn't disparage my far right nor did i disparage those, you know, who are moderate. the view of the party should be one that embraces and allows this kind of discussion, this organic discussion. so i just reject out of hand this notion that, you know, i've

got to now get on board because democrats are tripping over themselves to get in front of the supreme court before they hear a case on gay marriage. there are fundamental issues with respect to this subject that are still very important to people out there. you don't just dismiss them because you think, you know, that's what we should be doing right now. >> okay. let me go back to mike, michael feldman. can your party cartoonize, the republican party continue to do it using the aikens, mourdocks, the rick santorums? >> honestly, if you look at the last presidential cycle, we didn't have to do much work in that area, okay? the primary process was very destructive. if you look at mitt romney's candidacy, by the time he became the nominee in his own right, he had to shift back to the center and take responsibility for a lot of what he had to say in the nomina nominating, to the nominating electorate to get the nomination. this is the same problem confronting the republican party as we head into 2016. some of these positions that they're going to have to stake out to get the nomination are going to cost them dearly as they tact back to the center and

win in a general election. they're not insignificant in the fall. they're actually quite significant. >> michael steele, my friend, do you like defending the bogs of sharron angle, for example, who believed in second amendment remedies? i think some of these people taking shots at prosecutors down in the southwest believe in second amendment. that's an absurd position. you can't defend that. >> i'm not in the position to defend somebody's views i happen to disagree with. what ainl saying is -- >> happen to agree with shooting public officials? happen to disagree with? >> chris, if i disagree with someone, that's not representative of the entire party. nor if i agree with them, is that representative of the entire party. i don't know why you want to continue to paint the party with one brush. because it fills some political agenda, maybe. >> no, i enjoy it. >> the party is much more vie ders. >> it's not a political agenda. it's a fact of personal enjoyment. i love pointing out the cartoon aspects. >> and you point out the cartoon aspects to your own detriment, i

think, in the long run because then you're not having a broad-based discussion any longer. you're becoming a cartoon of the cartoon. >> michael, michael, your problem is you have to defend too wide a swath of humanity. anyway, thank you, michael steele. and thank you, michael feldman. up next, we'll continue this. this is serious. family members of those killed in newtown shooting are here in washington pushing for gun safety. something we all agree with. we're going to talk to a sister of a teacher who died trying to save children's lives up there. and this is "hardball," the place for politics. [ mom ] with my little girl, every food is finger food.

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real change begins. help this be the beginning of turning tragedy into transformation for us all. >> we're back. that was nicole who lost her son dylan in the sandy hook tragedy. this week hochukley and others e bringing the fight for tougher gun laws to washington. today they arrived on capitol hill to kick off a series of meetings with senate democrats or republicans hoping to persuade them or shame them into voting for gun safety legislation. jillian soto watched me now. she traveled from connecticut to washington last night with president obama as you can see in this photo. her sister victoria was a first grade teacher at sandy hook elementary who died trying to protect her students. this is a show, our show, "hardball," on televisions all over capitol hill. whatever you say here i hope reaches into those offices and into the hearts of those

senators. what would you like to say about the need for some kind of safety with regard to gun ownership. >> just that something needs to get done. nobody else needs to go through the pain that the sandy hook families are going through. we've gone through enough. and it's time now that we finally do something about it. and we get some change. you know, there's so many kids who have lost their life. in movie theaters, in schools and colleges. we don't need this any longer. it's time we do something about it. and any senator who doesn't want to hear what we have to say and still thinks there's something wrong -- not even they think something's wrong, but any senator who doesn't think that there's something wrong and thinks -- hears what we say and still thinks that it's okay, you know, come into my house. come and see what's going on at my house and see all the pain we're going through. i know firsthand what assault rifles do to a person when they're shot with them. i've seen the bullet holes. the body marks. what it does. something needs to get done. now is when we need to do it.

>> so when you think about the tragedy that cost the life of your sister who was a teacher, what are the elements? you mentioned assault rifles. is that what you think of as the worst -- the worst of this? these rapid firing rifles that allow a person to basically keep pulling the trigger and then be able to shoot up to 30 rounds? do you think about that? do you think about background checks? the kinds of people that are able to get guns easily? go through it, what you think of the elements that needs to be done. >> the elements that i think need to get done, i stand with obama and what president obama has said. i strongly support the assault rifle ban. i strongly support background checks. before sandy hook happened, before december 14th, i knew nothing about guns. i did not know that you couldn't -- that everybody had to go through a background check. i thought everyone had to. i never thought anybody could just receive a gun. you can go to your neighbor who had a gun and buy his gun and not have to go through a background check.

and that's wrong. because you have no idea what your neighbor does behind the closed doors. you have no idea what sick mind he could have. even if he has a criminal record and here you are selling him a gun. and you have no idea what he's going to do with it. and i also strongly support the magazine sizes. you know, in sandy hook, you know, the gunman had a 30-round magazine. you know, if he had a ten round magazine, he would have to stop and reload more times than he did. and it could have saved plenty of people's lives. it could have saved even one child's life. >> what do you say to the nra people? you're not informed about this now to know there's a lobby out there that basically says we don't want anything voted on even. what do you say to these professional people who get paid to lobby congress against doing anything? >> only thing i can say to them is think about it from our standpoint. think about it from my standpoint. i lost my sister. my older sister. i will never see her again.

the last time i saw her was thursday night when she came home late from school, and i'll never see her again because someone took an assault rifle into the elementary school that she taught at and murdered her. and 25 other people. any person who thinks nothing needs to get done needs to think about that. think about if it was your 6-year-old or your 7-year-old who was murdered, who was shot multiple times. would you still feel the same way and think nothing needs to get done? >> i wish you were a senator. thank you so much. i hope -- staffers, by the way, working for these senators and members of congress tell the boss in the back room when nobody's listening, you ought to vote for this. this is the one time you ought to ignore ideology and do the right thing. jillian soto, thank you so much for that wonderful expression of belief, and i believe truth. we'll be right back after this. >> thank you. by building custom security solutions that integrate video, access control, fire and intrusion protection.

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let me finish tonight with this. i think these people knocking on doors on capitol hill like the woman we just had on may do some good in the days ahead. i think they can help the contest for gun safety to get to first base. as we know, you can't score till you get on base. here's how it's going to work if it works. first base gets 60 votes in the senate to begin debate. that's on thursday. second base, 60 votes in the senate to close debate and bring up actual votes on, say, background checks. third base, pass background checks in the senate. home plate, bring enough for a vote in the house. okay. i ran out of bases. you see how tough this is going

to be. but it can be done. it all startsh