like thises regardless of the politics. >> oh holy god, help our senators. >> the bill has gotten past that 60 vote hurdle. >> gun control doesn't work. >> there are still people who don't think anything needs to happen just shocks me. >> what are we doing to impact on a gun owner's right if he only has a clip with ten rounds in it instead of 30 rounds in it? >> the president is once again using families of tragedy as props for his agenda. am i wrong? >> we're here because of what happened to us. >> this bill is a clear overreach. >> i, myself, bought extra guns, extra ammo in anticipation of all this nonsense. >> hydeia pendleton was me, and i was here. >> it's just got to end. ♪ i don't need to fight to prove i'm right ♪ >> it's a day of heated rhetoric in washington with the emotions

as high as the stakes. as gun safety comes to the floor of the senate. this is the opening legislative showdown in the push to curb gun violence in america. four months after the carnage that took the lives of 20 children in and 6 educators at sandy hook elementary school. today the ayes have it. yes, breaking threats of a filibuster, the senate voted early today to move forward with debate over gun legislation. 68-31. with more than a dozen republicans onboard. cheers to you. kelly ayotte, john mccain, jeff flake, and lindsey graham. congratulations. saxby chambliss, tom coburn, and susan collins. you had the courage to actually allow a debate on gun legislation. unfortunately, others were not so brave. as newtown families watch from the galleries, republicans,

including ted cruz, marco rubio, and mitch mcconnell, voted no. they were joined by red state democrats mark pryor and mark begich who voted against even allowing debate on solutions. while the defeat of a filibuster in today's vote is a big step, majority leader harry reid warned we are a long way from the finish line. >> i'm grateful to all republicans who joined with us to allow this debate to go forward. now, the hard work starts now. >> that is no understatement. some ten amendments are expected to come to the floor with opponents potentially pushing for days of debate on each one of them. senator lindsey graham, who voted to allow debate, tweeted afterward, "the gun control legislation can still be filibustered after today in the united states senate." graham, who appears to speak

with fork tongue, offering one of several alternative measures aimed at watering down legislation, and yet through all of this, and in a remarkable display of dignified courage, the families of newtown are maintaining the pressure. in their third day of meeting with lawmakers today, family members went as senator chris murphy read the names of newtown's murdered children and their careers. jillian soto, the sister of slain teacher victoria soto, said her grief will not be silenced. >> we're here to protect their legacy and we're here to honor them and demand something be done. demand our voices be heard and something gets done and we receive a vote. >> white house spokesman jay carney said the president called newtown families almost immediately after the vote. >> the president congratulated the families on this important step forward noting that the

bipartisan progress would not have been possible without their efforts. >> but he also emphasized that much work remains to be done. nbc's kristen welker joins us now from the white house. kristen, the white house released a photo of the president speaking with nicole hockley, mother of a little boy killed at sandy hook. what can you tell us about those calls and the president's reaction to the vote today? >> reporter: almost immediately after the procedural vote the president picked up the phone and called the family members who have been here all week long, the family members of the newtown victims. they've been going senator to senator urging them to pass these gun laws. so today was a procedural vote, as you point out, but the white house calling it an important first step. but they are being very cautious in their language, martin, because this is still very early on in this process. it is, again, just a procedural vote that sort of clears the way

for this legislation to move forward. there's another procedural vote, and there are going to be a lot of twists and turns along the way. a lot of debate along the way before the legislation is actually voted on. now, the white house has been sort of putting a full-court press on this. you heard the president speaking this week. the vice president, the first lady entered the fray and really delivered what was arguably her most emotional speech that we have ever heard her deliver in her hometown of chicago speaking out against gun violence. but, of course, on the other side you have the national rifle association, gun owners of americas who are putting a lot of money into this as well. but today's vote, if you speak with democrats, is encouraging because it was 68-32 with 16 republicans joining them to block this republican filibuster. so they are hoping that this will bode well in the future. but, again, martin, this is really just the first step in what will be a long process. the actual vote expected to happen sometime next week, but that's not a guarantee. martin? >> to your point, kristen, to

your point, the white house is keeping up the pressure. the splash page for the white house website, a call to action for gun safety supporters that speaks to how precarious this effort still is, doesn't it? >> reporter: oh, it absolutely is precarious, martin. so i expect that you are going to continue to see the administration press this issue. you heard the families of newtown say that they are going to stay engaged in this. because remember, even if this legislation does pass through the senate, it still has to make its way through the house. that is much tougher sledding. a lot of the members there up for re-election. and potentially are going to be more influenced by the efforts of the nra. so this is going to be a very long haul, but, again, you have the people here at the white house and, of course, the families really determined to continue to press this issue. martin? >> kristen welker, thank you so much. >> reporter: thanks.

let's get right to our panel. with us from washington is msnbc political analyst and soon to be msnbc host, karen finney. and democratic strategist, julian epstein, former counsel for the house judiciary committee. karen, it's certainly reassuring as kristen just said we had 68 votes to allow debate on gun legislation. >> right. >> but how much of a bellwether is that vote when it comes to the vote ahead on the actual legislation? >> well, i think as was saying, it shows how tough it's going to be. we know they have called for weeks of debate. that is what i was hearing earlier today. part of the strategy on that, and julian knows this process better than i, will be to attach amendments that could ultimately kill the overall bill but also to try to wear down the folks, like the folks from sandy hook, to try to, you know, wear down the sort of attention that's being paid to the issue. pew has a study just out today that shows a majority of americans really are paying attention to this issue. but i think, you know, the

longer the debate goes on, i think some are hoping the less focus and attention it will get from the public. >> right. and julian, compromise aside, this is far from a kumbaya moment for the congress. i mean, the nra wants it that way after an earlier statement which was perceived by them as a bit of a hedge. they released another much harsher one. let me read this to you, julian. "the nra is unequivocally opposed to s-649. in addition the nra will oppose any amendments offered to s-649 that restrict fundamental second amendment freedoms. this includes the misguided "compromise" proposal drafted by senators joe manchin, pat toomey, and chuck schumer. votes on all anti-gun amendments or proposals will be considered in nra's future candidate evaluations." if that is not a warning shot across the bows, i don't know

what is, julian. >> i wouldn't use kumbaya. i think that's exactly what the gun merchants, aka, the nra are trying to do here. they have a three-prong strategy. the first thing they'll try to do as karen alluded to is load this up with poison pill amendments as they did in 1999 after columbine with the so-called dingell amendment to make it unacceptable to the gun violence advocates. that's their first strategy. if in the event they're unable to do that, they still have a procedural vote at the end of the process that gives a minority, that gives 40 senators the right to veto what the majority has passed. they still have to get cloture for final passage so they have that as plan "b." i think part of this -- and plan "c" is certainly to make this so difficult even to get the crumbs of legislation, even to get something like background checks, which as we know, as important as they are, would not have stopped what happened in newtown. what they really want to do is

intimidate the rest of the democratic leaders and the think the majority of the public from even asking or thinking about things like the assault weapons ban or clips. they're trying to move the conversation. >> yep. >> so i think we have a long way to go. it's good we broke the initial filibuster, but they are playing a very vicious came to try to kill this legislation. >> karen, opponents of background checks argue we just need to enforce the laws in place. even as no less than al qaeda touts how weak that system is. take a look at a video of american-born al qaeda spokesman adam gaddan. this is a video from 2011 posted as an item on buzzfeed. take a look. >> in the west you've got a lot at your disposal. let's take america as an example. america is absolutely awash with easily obtainable firearms. you can go down to a gun show at the local convention center and come away with a fully automatic assault rifle without a background check, and most

likely without having to show an identification card. so what are you waiting for? >> karen, that is utterly chilling. and yet that's the same gun show loophole that some are fighting to protect. >> right. that's exactly right. that's when, you know -- i feel like when wayne lapierre talks about, you know, wanting everybody to have a gun, i want you to think about that image of that al qaeda member talking about how easy it is to go get a gun. one correction, as i understand it, it's not fully automatic weapons. semiautomatic weapons you still can get at gun shows. the point is if you have someone from al qaeda saying, hey, it's really easy in the u.s. to go get a gun, shouldn't we kind of pay attention to that? >> i would point out on that, martin, this is not the first time that's happened. we knew al qaeda was talking about how easy it was to get guns in the united states in the plait late 1990s. given that, what the president ought to do and gun safety

advocates ought to do is start turning up the rhetoric. the republicans used to accuse democrats of being soft on crime and soft on terrorism. what republicans are doing by obstructing just simple common sense legislation like background checks is they, in fact, have become the party of the soft on crime. they have become the party of soft on terrorism. i think that's exactly the language the president ought to start using for the gun safety obstructionists. >> julian epstein, karen finney, thank you both for your contribution today. thank you. >> thank you. next, boehner and the boys just don't know how to say yes. yes. yes. they just can't. stay with us. the united nations general assembly has overwhelmingly passed its first treaty regulating the multibillion dollar international arms trade. >> i cannot believe the u.s. voted for this thing. thankfully some have opposed this measure. that's right. the nra has now officially joined what i like to call the axis of freedom. [ female announcer ] are you really getting salon quality...

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just a short time ago, house speaker john boehner offered his response to the president's budget. although it wasn't so much a response, more like that tired old album, the greatest hits of the gop talking points. for instance, maybe you'll remember this golden oldie. >> it's just not serious. again, i don't think that's a serious effort. again, it's not serious. it's time for us to get serious. >> mr. boehner even concluded his news conference with one of this broadcast's all-time favorites. and one that we didn't even need to mash together because the speaker did it for us. >> i've watched leaders before i got here for 20 years kick this

can down the road, kick it down the road, kick it down the road. >> ah, the classics. they never die, do they? joining us now is jared bernstein, a senior fellow at the center on budget and policy priorities and dr. james peterson, associate professor at lehigh university. both are msnbc contributors. jared, i want you to get serious and not kick the can down the road when i ask you for an answer to this question. the president's budget involves major concessions for progressives. what is the president expecting in return from republicans? >> i will be serious, and there will be no can kicking. he's expecting a compromise on the revenue side of the equation. you know, they talk about a grand bargain in this town here in d.c. really when you get right down to it, that means the president and democrats offer cuts to social insurance to the republicans and in turn they

agree to new revenues. and the president's budget has $580 billion over 10 years in precisely that. you have to remember, talking about speaker boehner, it wasn't long ago that he was offering $400 billion in tax revenues in a deal with the president, but he has very much backed off that. and as you played in your little sn snippets there, does not seem to be willing to only to the table in the spirit of compromise. >> right. jared, i mean, speaker boehner sounds like he'd rather eat horse manure than offer any kind of revenues. >> well, so this has been the main factor that has been enforcing gridlock and i'd even say dysfunctional politics every fiscal trap. this governing by crisis. when you get right down to it, it really is a function -- it's not a pox on both their houses, especially after the president's budget. there is is one side that has consistently stonewalled on a balanced plan, including revenues in the deal. the president has crossed rivers

that even democrats obviously are pretty unhappy with here. and republicans haven't budged. >> brilliantly, jared, on your blog, which i read this morning. >> thank you. >> professor peterson, i want to play for you something that a key gop congressman, the man who's in charge of their house re-election efforts. listen to what he said an the social security debate. >> his budget really lays out kind of a shocking attack on seniors, if you will. once again, you're trying to balance this budget on the backs of seniors and i just think it's not the right way to go. >> professor, that sounds remarkable coming from him. but what is your position? do you agree with that, congressman? >> well, listen, what he's doing here, martin, is he's previewing the republican strategy in 2014. which is this is why the american people despise politics. it's this kind of backfighting and this sort of instant reversal form of political maneuvering that smacks of

opportunism. he's already trying to chastise the president for the president making a concession to his party. at the end of the day, the people need to remember the purpose of social security. social security was put in place because our seniors and people with disabilities were doomed to a life of poverty without support in social safety net. now as we try to talk about things like chain cpi, we lose the absolute meaning of it. what's interesting here is that walden is probably talking more about the means testing in medicare, that $170,000 per year litmus test as to whether or not you would need to have increased cost for your medicare benefits. >> right. >> more than he's talking about necessarily the chain cpi. really, chain cpi. we need to remember the history of social security here and really dismiss this kind of political maneuvering on the right. >> you've just done that, sir. jared, how does a republican congressman who voted for the paul ryan budget seriously attack the president's budget for what it does to seniors? how does he do that?

>> right. it's real jujitsu and you have to remember -- >> come on, jared, you have to be less polite. that's not jujitsu. >> it's disingenuous. >> it's other words i won't say right now. >> okay. >> during the campaign, mitt romney and representative ryan attacked the president's medicare cuts and paul ryan, of course, pockets those very same cuts in his budget and, of course, you've got republicans calling for precisely the kind of entitlement concessions that the president is offering on the big social insurance programs. and actually there's an interesting dynamic as this stuff plays out. i mean, just this afternoon you have cantor and ryan, i believe, some others -- no, cantor and boehner -- who are kind of backing away from this guy and some conservatives are saying, he's a liberal because he sounds like bernie sanders or something. you know, he's defending social security. >> unbelievable. >> so it's just a very big mess,

james is right about that. >> boehner now has members of his own conference who disagree with him on chain cpi, background checks, and on immigration. should we be concerned that ultimately the budget, guns and immigration, comes down to speaker boehner's leadership and managerial skills? >> oh my god. we should be concerned because at the end of the day, martin, speaker boehner cannot corral the tea party caucus in his own party. even though he's the leader, he's kind of a leader in name only. he actually cannot create the kind of consensus amongst republicans in the house that's required to address these very, very real situations and challenges that we're faced with. this is why you've seen the president try to maneuver around him. speak more with senators. have invy stationatiitation din other folk. at the end of the day boehner is leader in name only. he has no juice really with the tea party caucus. this is although why you get people like walden and all this sort of mixed messaging from the

party because their leadership does not represent the sort of radical right wing of particularly the house of representatives. >> and it proves all their claims of balance were utterly hollow from the start. jared bernstein -- >> it's all politics, martin. >> absolutely. thank you, gentlemen. coming up, the president's secret weapon and the love of his life. stay with us. his budget, in your eyes in the house of representatives, dead on arrival? >> of course. but i think they probably understand that.  [ male announcer ] it's simple physics...

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more than half way. >> this is dead on arrival. >> how do you see this meeting us halfway? >> barack obama. the time is now. the time is now. >> it's a comprehensive immigration bill. >> i'm optimistic we're going to get to done. >> i turned havana into atlanta. i got white house clearance. >> what about sandals? they don't have a brutal dictator and don't imprison people for speaking out. >> i'm about to show you something you're not accustom to seeing. >> as nra members, as a-rated members, this bill done allow government infringement. >> they start heckling you and i guess start calling you a murderer and terrorist. >> you can go down to a gun show. >> of course gun owners are okay with background checks. they've already got their guns. >> so what are you waiting for? >> the game changer is what happened with those beautiful babies. >> a lot of politicians sadly taking advantage of the horrific tragedy that happened in newtown. >> grace mcdonnell, age 77. >> victoria soto. >> i don't know that i've ever

seen a time where it has been so deeply felt. a small number of people having such a huge impact. >> i, myself, bought extra guns, extra ammo in anticipation of all this nonsense. >> what does it take for us to change what we are seeing unfold? >> my child is gone. >> hydeia pendleton was me, and i was her. >> newtown, connecticut, deserves a vote. they all deserve a vote. >> let's get right to our panel. joining me here in the studio is joy reid, managing editor of the grio.com. jimmy williams is an msnbc contributor. and, of course, the great dane ma milbank is a columnist for the "washington post." joy, we saw a little bit there of the first lady speaking in chicago. about hydeia pendleton, the teenager who was shot by a gun after performing the president's inauguration. it was a rare speech because first ladies generally don't get involved in such a high-temperature issue. >> yeah. no, and you know, i've seen michelle obama on a couple other

occasions speak to kids about herself as a kid growing up in chicago. and the fact that she really does believe that but for the grace of god and parents that had her in sports and had her in activities, and good grades and just, you know, having a family that supported her, she understands in reality that she could have been hydeia pendleton. she could have been any of these kids that are victims of gun violence. she feels it so personally. that speech was really impa impactful. it was real. it was michelle obama not as a first lady, not just as a mom but a girl from the south side of chicago who grew up and made good. that's what this is about. this is about real people that are just showing that one individual can change the world because you know what, any one of us could have been that little girl. >> any one of our children. >> any one of our kids could have been hydeia and that's what she got across. >> she really did. jimmy, the first lady really did bring it home. take a listen to more of what she said. >> right now, my husband is fighting as hard as he can and engaging as many people as he

can to pass common sense reforms to protect our children from gun violence. and these reforms deserve a vote in congress. >> jimmy, the first lady gets attacked for everything. you name it. the easter egg roll, the oscars cameo, rush limbaugh attacked her once for shopping at target. what are the guys going to do if she starts speaking up on guns? >> they'll stay stupid things like rush limbaugh said. wait, that happens every single day. is set that aside. that's the norm of the republican right. listen, i like history. i remember when hillary clinton made the comment when she was, you know, castigated for not sort of doing this traditional first lady role. and her comment was, what do you want me to do, stay in the white house and bake cookies? i'm paraphrasing. you know, i don't remember the professional right saying a word to laura bush when she would talk about reading and about

illiteracy rates in the country. she got a free pass. by the way, laura bush was a fabulous first lady. >> yes. >> they attacked hillary clinton. now they're attacking michelle obama for shopping at target, for empathizing with african-american people in this country whose children with being shot on the streets everyboevery single day. that's a problem. that's a problem that she has empathy. here's the problem with rush limbaugh and his types. they don't know what empathy is. >> jimmy, you anticipated me as always. you're a bright fellow. i'm going to come to him in a moment. da dana, is there any legitimate reason for conservatives to fear the first lady? it seems to me she's becoming increasingly formidable, and you can see them quaking at the knees when she stands up. >> well, martin, she's been part of a, i think, a very strong effort the last week or so by the administration, by these gun control advocates to really put personal faces on this. i was just on the hill today with the families of the dead

from newtown. they really turned things around up there on the hill. and i think people have started to realize that they need to bring all assets to bear in this battle. and that's part of what michelle obama has been doing. so i don't believe republicans fear her, in particular, over others, but i think everybody is now going to be making this a central issue and putting real faces on this gun debate. that's why you see at least temporarily the gun lobby again back on its heels. >> right. joy, it's no surprise that rush limbaugh marked the first lady's moving tribute to hydeia pendleton. that would be expected. in the middle as he choked on his own bile, he had a nervous breakdown. take a listen. >> so when i hear the president say, if i had a son he'd look just like trayvon, i know what he's doing. when i hear a first lady compare herself to a murdered teenager, i know what she's doing.

and it -- it's a disservice. it's a disservice to the country. i love the country so much. i hate -- i literally -- i'm literally depressed over what's happening to it. i'm -- i'm really mad at how easy it apparently is to turn rationality upsidedown and to the point it doesn't exist. >> joy, i know that you're not a psychiatrist, but how is it a disservice to the country, as he says, to highlight the murder of our children? >> right. you know, there's an old movie called "an imitation of life. "that what you just showed is an imitation of right. he's doing a good approximation of being a human being. what is the first lady's job? the role of sister, mom, aunt, friend, right? when something happens that pains the conscience of the

country, you'd think it's the first lady's job. she's not a legislator, she can't pass bills. she's not the president of the united states. she's there as our proxy, closest to the president, say, you know what, i can speak for the rest of you. what is more pressing for every mom in this country, every dad, every human being with a heart. i understand rush limbaugh may be excluded from what i just said. than to protect our children by death from shooting? >> he says that's a disservice to the country. it's a disservices to the country. >> it's a disservice to the country if you think the purpose of this country is to serve gun manufacturers, to serve industry over human beings. that's the only way it could be a disservice. >> you know, dana, it got so bad on mr. limbaugh's show today that one of his own listeners called up and criticized him for mocking the death of his child. but what do they really expect? i mean, do they think this bag of poisonous waste would have a heart? i mean, do they really expect that? listen to him twice in a week, it becomes apparent the man lacks some very, very essential

requirements to be part of the normal human race. >> well, rush is having a very difficult time these days. i think, perhaps, martin, you want to send him a box of chocolates to cheer him up here a little bit. i don't -- what he does not seem to be aware of, i mean, he's upset about the situation as it exists now, which means the people he'd like to see in charge are not in charge. he doesn't seem to have a sense of self-awareness, though, in terms of the fact that he actually is largely responsible for creating this situation for developing a republican party that is so extreme that it can't be trusted with power by the people in the presidency and majority in the senate and is finding it increasingly untenable to hold on to its house majority. so a lot of this has to do with where rush limbaugh has taken the party. i'm sorry that he's so upset now. but he kind of brought it on himself. >> he did. jimmy williams, joy reid, and the great dana milbank.

thank you all. >> thank you. coming up, north korea makes new pronouncements on their ability to strike. when will the world respond? stay with us. [ buzzer ] hot dog? i'm buying. i'll use my capital one venture card with double miles you can actually use to fly any airline anytime. ♪ what are you doing? i'm saving one for later. my body keeps it warm. it's like a little hot dog steamer in there. go ahead, touch my chest. no. ♪ what's in your wallet? you got any mustard in there? ♪

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moments ago the president warned north korea to tamp down on its increasingly belligerent war talk after the country warned of its powerful striking means today. >> now is the time for north korea to end the kind of belligerent approach that they've been taking and to try to lower temperatures. nobody wants to see a conflict on the korean peninsula. >> analysts believe as many as five intermediate range missiles, each with about 1,200 kilograms payload, are ready to

launch. u.s. officials believe these missiles which they call musudan have a maximum range of about 2,100 miles, meaning they could not reach the u.s. mainland or hawaii. for more, we're joined by nbc's jim maceda, who's live for us in seoul. jim, we keep hearing terms like missiles will be fired any time soon. what are you able to give us, or are you able to give us anything more specific in terms of what north korea may be planning and when? >> reporter: hi, martin. well, i think you've been hearing imminent and word like any time soon over the past couple of days. and that's because the signals coming out of pyongyang as well as south korean intelligence suggested a six-day window from april 10th, that's the date by which foreigners had to leave the north or were recommended to leave the north initially, and april 15th, which as you've

said, already in your lead, is a huge national holiday and a perfect moment for a person like kim to define himself by firing off a missile or multiple missiles. so we're in that window, and it did look imminent earlier today. one missile was fueled, raised vertically in a firing position only to be hours later lowered again. and other missiles, there could be or five others, have been now regularly loaded on to their launchers and then moved back to their hangars. and martin, this is just vintage north korean shell game. with a few missiles which may not even be loaded, by the way, kim's managed to tie up a fleet of south korean and u.s. destroyers, surveillance planes, patriot anti-missile batteries. not only here but in japan. the whole world is talking about kim jong-un and north korea. in fact, one analyst today pointed out that kim doesn't even have to fire a missile or

missiles. he's already made his point. look at us, look at what we've been talking about for the past two or three days. back to you. >> absolutely right. nbc's jim maceda in seoul. thanks so much, jim. next, the american people have spoken, and they're all for a path to citizenship. stay with us. i don't like to golf. i love to golf. ♪ [ grunts ] yowza! that's why i eat belvita at breakfast. it's made with delicious ingredients and carefully baked to release steady energy that lasts... we are golfing now, buddy! [ grunts ] ...all morning long. i got it! for the win! uno mas! getting closer! belvita breakfast biscuits -- steady energy to do what i do all morning long.

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new polling released today by nbc news and the "wall street journal" makes it crystal clear that the american people are positive about immigration reform and they wan it by wide margins. 64% of americans say they support a pathway to citizenship for the 11 million undocumented individuals currently living in the united states. just 34% said they are opposed. moreover, 69% say that

undocumented immigrants should be able to apply immediately for citizenship or after a wait of five years. just 14% say they should never be allowed to apply. and by a margin of 18 percentage points, americans believe that immigration strengthens rather than weakens the country. and, yet, we are forced to wait and wait and wait for congress to act. why? because lawmakers seem incapable of doing what a majority of the people in this country want them to do. let's bring in victoria de francesco soto, a contributor for nbc and nbc latino. and maria theresa kumar. maria theresa, doesn't the poll speak for itself and do you

think is strengthens the hands of the people assembling at the capitol for them to do their job? >> once again the american people is ahead of where they electors are and i think that's why it's so promising what i'm hearing from folks is that it looks like they're going to drop a bill either monday or tuesday and keep an open review on the senate side and the idea is to get as many republicans onboard as soon as possible on the senate side so they can go with the bill they passed between 70 and 75 votes so when it hits the o house it's going to be harder for the extreme right of the republican party to break up the bill. >> victoria, there's a lot of opposition to what the american people support. nbc's michael isikoff has a new report out today about the network of anti-immigrant groups plotting against immigration reform. groups like numbers usa, fair, the center for immigration studies. they were founded by an obscure petition from michigan. he's written that "for

european-american society to exist requires a european-american majority and a clear one at that." is this the fear that's really driving opposition to reform, victoria? because in fairness to the doctor, it sounds a bit ugly, doesn't it? >> it's very ugly, and it's also something that we've seen forever in terms of immigration. back in the late 1800s, we had similar arguments about keeping america very much a euro-centered country. but i really don't think that it is going to be an obstacle. first of all, because of the public opinion support, but more specifically, because of the broad-based public opinion support. it's not just democrats. it's not just independents. we also see republicans supporting immigration reform, especially when you put in the factor of paying backtaxes and paying fines. the other thing is when we've looked, when immigration reform has failed in the past, namely 2007, it wasn't because of groups like these. it was because labor and the chamber of commerce couldn't

come together. when it failed in 2001, or when it didn't go anywhere in 2001, it was because of 9/11. so these groups make a lot of noise, are very insulting, very hurting to the fabric of the u.s. society, but ultimately i don't see them as a road block. >> maria teresa, we've been told to expect the official release of the gang of 8 immigration proposal at any moment but told to expect progress on immigration reform before. do you think the obstructionists will succeed, yet again, in holding up progress on this deal? progress that the american people quite clearly want to see? >> well, this is what i'm hearing from folks on the hill. basically they're looking for 75 votes from the senators so they can send it over to the house. now, what the house is proposing is to cut up these pieces of legislation -- the immigration bill into seven bills so that folks have an opportunity to basically vote for what they like. now, here's the rub, martin. if they do that, one of the parts they're looking to

actually offset is one of the standalone bills, possibly attached to something less comfortable, is a pathway to citizenship for undocumenteds. and that's when groups such as the ones you're talking about, numbers usa, et cetera, really have a shot of really polarizing the right wing of the party to ensure that type of legislation does not pass. >> well, we look forward to hearing what they come up with in the days ahead. victoria defrancesco soto and maria teresa soto. >> thank you, martin. >> and we'll be right back. we make our coffee with it. but we rarely tap its true potential and just let it be itself. flowing freely into clean lakes, clear streams and along more fresh water coast line than any other state in the country. come realize water's true potential. dive in-to the waters of pure michigan. your trip begins at michigan.org.

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the cathedral next wednesday morning as the united kingdom honors its former prime minister. of course, margaret thatcher managed a feat that has so far eluded any american politician, becoming the first female leader of her country. some are suggesting that mrs. thatcher may be something of a role model for mrs. clinton if she decides to run in 2016. interestingly, despite shattering the glass ceiling, herself, mrs. thatcher did almost nothing to actively promote the rights of women. in fact, on one occasion she reportedly told an adviser "the feminists hate me, and i don't blame them, for i hate feminism. it is poison." but women's rights have become one of mrs. clinton's most important concerns. in fact, one of her first speeches following retirement from the state department was delivered to the women in the world summit. >> let's keep telling the world

over and over again that, yes, women's rights are human rights and human rights are women's rights. once and for all. >> once and for all. and for those who lionize mrs. thatcher, she had many admirable qualities. she was, as she said, a conviction politician. the so-called iron lady. she did more than survive in a man's world. she beat them at their own game. but doing better than men is something that women have been doing for a very long time. giving women proper credit and opportunity, that remains the greatest challenge. and that's something that hillary clinton already has over margaret thatcher. thanks so much for watching. chris matthews and "hardball" picks things up right now.