their kids will have a better life. they are not in the beltway calculating what impact and effect will happen. all they want is a better world for other people's children since they've lost their own. and that is what motivated them and had them motivate a nation. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. human shields? let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. let me start with this. "80% of life," woody allen once said, "is showing up." i've been watching this compelling capitol hill invasion of family, relatives and friends of those killed in newtown, connecticut. and we'll know soon if this will be the difference between action on gun safety and doing nothing. and when we do, we'll have a new

estimate of what happens when regular people get out there and lobby congress. right there, where it works. what's different, of course, is is these people are the ones most personally and permanently affected by the ability of the wrong people getting their hands on guns. i remember the old argument. guns don't kill people, people do. and that's where senator pat toomey is right. a wider, stronger background check covering all commercial purchasers of guns is not really about what kinds of guns are out there, and what could be sold, it's about the people out there and who shouldn't have their hands on any gun. and this is where the battle for better background checks stands. right now. can the supporters of gun safety

get 50 votes in the senate on the background check, itself? can they get 60 votes to clear a filibuster? can they get the one vote, the speaker of the house, to schedule the vote in the house? can they get 218 votes in the house to actually pass it? then, of course, get the signature of the president to make it law? so these are the numbers. 50. 60. one. 218. and one. five gates to pass through for us to have a stronger background check to become part of the law. pia carusone is former chief of staff to congresswoman gabby giffords and now runs the group, americans for responsible solutions. and nia malika henderson is a political reporter for the "washington post." it just struck me this afternoon to hear rush limbaugh refers to the people who have come to capitol hill and are wonderfully moving around the hill right now with their wonderful green ribbons, he calls them human shields. in other words, they're just sort of props. >> well, i don't know that we can take seriously anything rush limbaugh said recently. >> you have to take it seriously because he has a bunch of naybobs and dittoheads out there who do. >> that's fair enough. the victims of newtown, it's

impossible to call them shields. they are the faces of this tragedy. and they're the ones out there telling lawmakers to do something about it and to show the courage and do the right thing. >> do you think it's working? >> yeah. >> tell me how. >> we've had a great week. you know, last week the washington press was writing the obituary of the background check. fair and square, they were saying it's dead. this week we have one of the most conservative republicans in the senate agreeing to a deal. i mean, the momentum is with us, so whether it's the work of the victims of gun violence -- >> you have two republicans. how many do you need? >> we'd like a strong showing. >> can you get 50? 60? >> i think so. we have a shot. we're appealing to their morals. if that doesn't work, we'll appeal to their political -- >> you have 52 democrats. you need seven republicans, to

be blunt about, it to clear a filibuster. >> yes, we cleared the filibuster. >> to begin the debate. >> exactly. but we're not looking for 60. we're looking for a lot more than that. >> i'm worried about getting the 60, not getting a lot more than that. you're so frisky about this. you're already talking about more than 60. >> we're headed to the house. the house is goal. >> i think there are pickups you can look at. mark kirk -- >> he's already on my list. i counted him. >> you counted him. susan collins. maybe even john mccain you have. harry reid released a video that looked at five republicans already been on record to being open to background checks. i think, you know, there is optimism. i think she's right the pendulum swing began this week. i mean, we -- >> i agree that's a movement. the more excitement, the better. >> over the last 20 years the nra dominated this debate. now i think we're at the beginning -- >> got to win the senate, got to beat the next filibuster attempt. there's going to be another filibuster. you have to get boehner to have the nerve, the guts, whatever you want to call it, to bring it up in the house and get the 218 in the house and allow him to break the hastert rule. you're not going to have a majority of republicans. you're going to have to get some republicans to add up to the democrat total.

some democrats from rocky mountain, certain states are going to have a hard time with this. let's take a look at what rush limbaugh said. i find this pretty offensive. let's watch. >> it was the president who asked for this mother of a 6-year-old who died to do his speech. senator richard blumenthal, democrat, connecticut, is using sandy hook to raise money in his e-mails. they're trying to turn the newtown parents into a dozen cindy sheehans in a way. and it's what the democrats do, folks. they always try to hide their agendas behind women and children and most of all, victims. and so the newtown parents are human shields, in a sense. the newtown parents are out there to protect the democrats from any criticism and to shut it down. >> i like the way he does this. didn't you notice as a woman, he's assuming that men are putting you people up? >> oh, i know. >> you don't look put up to me. >> and i mean, certainly with

these families, this is what they want to do. they talk about wanting to be in this conversation to carry on the legacies of their dead 6 and 7-year-olds who they'll never see again. >> nobody put cindy sheehan up to anything. >> people came around to feeling the exact same thing, cindy sheehan about that war. it looks like these families have a similar affect. and they are a clarifying, i think, presence and voice and remind us why we are here. >> well said. "politico" reported today on those sandy hook families. in a story headline "victims turned lobbyists." they wrote "when a lobbyist for families of newtown shooting victims called the office of senator susan collins, to set up a meeting, the first was a standard d.c. offer, they'd get a meeting with her staff and a

quick simple hello from the senator, herself. they were told, the family's answer, not good enough. according to lobbyists the families have a rule against staff-only meetings. they won't do them. they insist on sitting down with senators, themselves." i know a lot of highly paid lobbyists would like this deal. usually you see them sitting next to some young kid trying to make their point. >> it's important as a former house chief of staff, i would say if a family member of a deceased came in looking for a meeting, we would take that. i think it's disrespectful to put it at the staff level. personally, out of respect, at least, if you disagree on the policy, show the respect to the family and meet face to face. >> wow. >> i think this has changed in some ways. i think initially for reasons you can imagine, the families weren't really out there as much. but this flood of activity that you see, they're on the air as well with ads i think sponsored by mayors against guns.

so i think they have been more effective than bloomberg's money because they -- >> i think it's a little too much professionalism with mike. i mean, mike is obviously, has many interests. >> that's right. >> they're good interests. >> he's been fighting this battle for a long time. >> earlier today west virginia senator joe manchin fought back against right-wing fears that more background checks would mean a national database of gun owners. here was his response. >> it's absolutely totally false, and anybody that's saying that is just basically skewering or lying to people. the law today, rick, is you cannot do a registry. if you go to a gun dealer today, he has to keep a record, or she has to keep a record. if it's used for a registration, it's against the law. in our bill, we make it a felony and 15 years of imprisonment. if people would go to manchin.senate.gov and read for themselves, pat toomey and i would not be involved in this bill if it infringed on anybody's rights. >> the arguments made by the second amendment people, not just hunters, real true second amendment people is, we don't want a national registry. they stay, if you register, they're going to collect. i'm not sure whatever has been

collected in history once it's been registered. their argument is the united states has a history. it's a faulty reality portrayed in texas schoolbooks. that's where ted cruz got it, somebody told me the other day. your thoughts. where do they get this idea if you try to buy a gun and buy a gun, somebody is going to write down a list and file that with the federal government? >> i don't know how someone would believe the federal government would go around, first of all being able to go around to all the ffls in this country and collect that data. >> ffl? >> licensed firearm dealer. collect the data and then eventually collect the guns. i don't know, but you know, the point is no one is talking about a registry. not republicans, not democrats. no serious -- >> let me ask you this as thinking like a law enforcement official. if there was a killing in town, with a particular kind of weapon, right, wouldn't you go to the local gun store like the first thing you do and see if anybody bought one of these recently?

and that's not -- is that a problem with the nra? you're not supposed to be able to use it as a policeman? a police guy trying to figure out who killed somebody. wouldn't you go to the store and see who bought it? >> the way it works currently if there is a gun used in a crime, there's a serial number on the gun. that serial number is traced back to the manufacturer then eventually to the store that sold it. >> okay. you don't have the serial number. can you go to the store that sells the kind of guns? do the nra people have a problem with that? the policemen doing their job? >> you'll have to ask them that question. >> i think you might know. >> i think you're conflating the nra with people who have these paranoid fantasies. i don't think everyone in the nra is thinking -- >> do they want them to throw

out the slip, the purchase slip the minute the person walks out the door? bought the gun for 78 bucks, we're going to keep that record for an hour and throw it out the window. >> that's their fear. right? if they have universal background checks that, you know, that that's essentially what would happen. national registry. >> i'm not talking about universal background checks. i'm talking about a guy who sells guns at a simple store and keeps a record of -- can a policeman come in and ask for that information? >> absolutely. >> yes. that's how crimes are solved. >> the 40% of guns sold on gun shows and on the internet, today, the answer is no. >> okay. let me ask you, why do you think the nra changed its goal line? i can imagine if this whole thing happened, say, 24 hours after the horror up in newtown, the nra said we have no problem with the background check, in fact, it ought to be fixed.

why do they push for this gun hole loophole? it has nothing to do with anything. if a guy or woman wants to buy a gun, they'll find a store to buy it at. why do they want to protect these gun show things which is the big issue here? >> you're right, 199 9 wayne lapierre said -- >> why don't they smartly draw the line at actual gun control which is -- you shouldn't be stopped from buying a certain kind of gun? >> they're absolutists. this is way they've grown their organization. this is how they've remained relevant of being extremists. >> they don't look like good guys in suburbs now. they don't look good. they may win. they're not going to look good. >> that's where this battle is ultimately going to be run. if you look at toomey, that's the signal he sends. >> why would they want to look bad as an organization? aarp, any lobbying group wants to eventually be popular with most people because there's a lot less money. being successful, people like you. why aren't they smart? >> they're competing for membership with the gun owners of america, with gun owners of america that are on the right. right? they're looking to move themselves to the right. >> everybody has to be the most ferocious. >> it's worked so far. >> i think there's a good shot at this and if they lose this, big move. big move for the country. thank you very much, pia, and nia malika henderson. coming up the empire strikes back. the white house sends out this warning to the gop, give in on gay marriage, we give up on you. the rnc approved a resolution today, today, opposing gay marriage. they're worth it, aren't they? plus consider this number. 694. the number of provisions

legislators around the country introduced adding to the burden of someone deciding to have an abortion. conservatives have given up on getting the courts to stop abortion but coming up with ways to make it harder. jon stewart points out rand paul has a find, actually has a point when he says republicans have been champions of voting rights for african-americans as long as you forget about the last 50 years. finally let me finish with the civil war in the republican party between the traditional conservatives out there on issues like abortion and same-sex marriage and the libertarians who go the other way. and this is "hardball," the place for politics. by building custom security solutions that integrate video, access control, fire and intrusion protection. all backed up with world-class monitoring centers, thousands of qualified technicians, and a personal passion to help protect your business. when your business is optimized like that, there's no stopping you. we are tyco integrated security. and we are sharper. that make kids happy. and even fewer that make moms happy too.

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welcome back to "hardball." the republican party a few weeks

ago released what we're calling an autopsy report citing the need to be more tolerant. that was a word, and inclusive, another word. that's not what the cultural right in the party wants to hear. they began fighting back. hard. rick santorum said the gop supporting gay marriage would be suicidal. the family research council tony perkins told supporters to stop donating until the party got its act together on this issue. then today it seems like the rnc listened. conservatives passed a resolution today declaring "the republican national committee affirms its support for marriage as a union of one man and one woman. as the opt much environment in which to raise healthy children for the future of america. and be it further resolved the republican national committee implores the u.s. supreme court to uphold the sanctity of marriage in its rulings on california's prop 8 and the federal defense of marriage act."

well, this civil war within the gop obviously is raging right now. but can a party vehemently against gay marriage win in a country where a majority of people across the board support gay marriage? robin armstrong, republican national committeeman from texas, gregory angelo executive director of the log cabin republicans. gentlemen, this is sort of an amazing thing to watch right now because you've got these couple of strains in republican party which are real, traditional and valid. you've got the libertarian strain which goes back to barry goldwater, live and let live. at the end of his life he was pro gay rights, pro abortion rights, basically live and let live. you have the strong church part of the party. the religious cultural right which has given the party all its votes in the last 20 or 30

years starting with the prayer issue back in '61. let me ask you, dr. robin armstrong, thank you for joining. let me ask you, which is the strongest strain in your history? is it libertarianism or sort of orthodox cultural values? >> i think it's a combination of both. >> well, that combination ain't working right now. >> we're talking about, i'll i'll tell you what we're talking about in our party is having a big tent. we allow everyone in. we are very -- actually we're the tolerant party. we allow, you know, people who are pro-choice in our party. we allow people to come in who are in favor of homosexual marriage. i know mr. angelo is a log cabin republican. he is a republican, a strong republican.

all we're saying is, listen, we affirm marriage is between one man and one woman. we believe that. we're not going to compromise that value. that is what we believe. but -- >> ever. you're never going to compromise? no, let me get this straight. doctor, let me get this straight. >> sure. >> i want to get your phrasing here. are you ever, ever going to be open to the door of changing that position, or is it permanent with your party? >> i am saying right now that we -- >> right now. >> -- are not going to compromise -- >> right now. >> we're not going to compromise that value and we do not plan on compromising that value in the future. ever.

>> so you think it's a permanent value? >> but -- but what i am saying is, what i'm saying is, if we agreed with someone on 80% of issues, and we disagree on 20% of issues, they're still welcome in our party. we will still accept them in our party. we're not going to throw away the 20%. we don't have to have 100% purity. our party, and our platform, uphold the fact that marriage is between one man and one woman and that's where we stand. >> would you be against a group that's against civil rights for african-americans, that 20%, would that be enough to stop out from joining the party? >> absolutely not. >> would it stop you from joining the republican party? you would join a party that didn't believe in civil rights for african-americans? >> what you're trying to do is trying to equate the issue of homosexual marriage. >> i'm only asking the question because i'm going to ask the same question to gregory. >> i am telling you that republicans led the civil rights movement. abraham lincoln was a republican. so i don't accept the premise of your question. i believe wholeheartedly that most americans, today, agree that marriage is between one man and one woman. republican party will stand on that platform. >> well, let me just go through the latest polling. 53%, sir, do believe, they support same-sex marriage. 42% oppose. in your party, perhaps in your world, politically, 66% of republicans do oppose. but you just threw out a line there that's not true. most americans support same-sex marriage now, sir. >> well, you know, i'll tell you, i believe that it depends on how the wording is phrased, how the poll is phrased. >> how is this question, do you favor or oppose allowing same-sex marriages? people said, yes, they favor it.

let me go over to gregory here. how do you like being in a political party that figures you're just the 20% problem? your issues matter a lot to you, i assume, don't count in the big 80%. as if that's the same 80%. if you're gay and care about equality of marriage, that's a lot bigger than 20%. >> this was pointed out perhaps no clearer than in the letter that came out yesterday addressed to the rnc. a lot pointed specifically to log cabin republicans saying proof the republican party is open and a big tent party is acknowledging the fact log cabin republicans exist here. we're not a part of the party because of its stance on so-called traditional marriage. in fact, we're part of the party in spite of that. >> i know. >> we agree -- >> does it bother you when you hear a gentleman like mr. armstrong, a party chair or committeeman say this is essential to the party's belief, this is something that isn't going to change in the foreseeable future? isn't going to change? is essential? how can opposition to same-sex marriage be essential to being a republican?

>> you're asking the wrong guy. you can be a republican and be supportive for marriage equality for gay individuals. the party platform in 2012 stated marriage is between one man and one woman did not stop senator portman from evolving on this issue. >> is it going to let the party evolve, though? will the party ever evolve? >> the party is evolving regardless of what the platform says. right now you have congressmen, you have republicans around the country coming out across the country for the freedom to marry. more and more republicans are understanding the importance of becoming more welcome and accepting of gay individuals. >> you believe everything -- let me go back to dr. armstrong. do you believe the party is going in the same direction? seems to me there's a lot of people in the party upset about the possibility your party might go toward support for same sex and basically put out the resolution today saying the party as a whole has said it's not going to happen. is there not a libertarian strain out there in your party led by rand paul and people like that who definitely are going in another direction? they're going in a different direction. they're not differing with you. they're heading someone. >> we welcome them in our party they are far of the republican party. i think this is an illustration of how intolerant democrats are, how intolerant liberals are of other viewpoints. you don't have to agree with me on 100% of viewpoints to be part of this party. >> let me ask you about the ruling percentage of this party.

this idea of percentages is helpful. it misses the same point. if rick santorum were the nominee of the party, he won iowa caucuses last year, he could win them again next year, next time. if he were the nominee, he'd say, sorry, this is where i get off the bus. whatever, you know, what will be, will be. if you got a nominee like this guy who says, let's go back and look at contraception. the weird thing he did equating bestiality and homosexuality. whole way he talks about people who are gay. i don't see how you could cheer him as a nominee for president. would you, gregory? would you support rick santorum? would you support him as nominee? >> it would be extremely difficult for me to support rick santorum. >> are you saying you could support him? >> everybody can evolve. i'd encourage rick santorum to

evolve on this issue. >> you really believe in evolution? >> of course i believe in evolution. we leave no stone unturned at lob cabin republicans. some of the most rock ribbed social conservatives are the people most interested in finding out more about the work we're doing in this organization. one thing i point out to dr. armstrong i think is really important -- >> do you ever get to meet the people who write your party platform? >> last year before i was executive director, log cabin was involved. >> what was your role in drafting the one man, one woman thing? >> we were obviously there talking against it. >> it didn't work? >> no, we were definitely a voice there. those voices are growing. it's important for dr. armstrong to realize. >> let me ask him if he thinks it's growing. is the movement in your party toward belief in the appropriateness of same-sex marriage? is there a movement in that

direction in your polling? >> i don't see that there's a movement in that direction amongst folks who are solid conservatives. i don't see that there's a movement in that direction. what i see is that we're saying, listen, our tone on this needs to be we are accepting of all people who agree with us on 80% of the issues but there are some issues we don't compromise. >> dr. armstrong, you did not -- >> i do believe -- >> the rnc does not do that. >> we're in no way against people at all. >> having this resolution, the rnc, a completely unnecessary resolution, simply stating you're restating the party's position and having another resolution. going into the fact marriage is between one man and one woman are best to raise children, that's completely unnecessary and that is a fantastic way to give democrats fodder to attack republicans. it's a great way to make the 2014 election all about this. it's a great way to make the 2016 election all about this. >> i believe it is the height of arrogance for us to think that we can change 6,000 years of history. i believe that marriage, definition of marriage is between one man and one woman.

we're not against people, but we are for a one man, one woman marriage. >> i want to win. >> that's how this party wins. >> can i state my view? there's something extraordinarily awkward of the language, between one man and one woman. say a man and a woman. go with the indefinite article. all you have to say is a man and a woman. why do they say it that way? weird defensiveness and oddness of talking like this. this isn't normal english. you don't have to say one man and one woman or one guy and one guy. >> i don't think it's strange at all. >> why do you say one man and one woman? why do you say one? >> as opposed to two men and one woman. i think it's important. it's important. >> doctor, you know english as well as i do. what's wrong with saying a man and a woman? >> there is a concern, there is a concern that if you legalize this marriage, then the definition will be open to all

sorts of -- >> you're not listening. what's wrong with just saying a man and a woman in what's wrong with saying a man and a woman? what's wrong with saying a woman? >> what's wrong with saying one man and one woman? >> it's weird. thank you. >> just doesn't happen. >> it's the polygamy argument. you're right. that's what it is. it's an elbow against you guys in another direction. thank you, dr. armstrong. thank you, gregory, for coming here. a programming note, by the way, senator marco rubio will be a guest this sunday on "meet the press." he's got a good bill, by the way. he'll be joined by senators kirsten gillibrand of new york and mike lee of utah. there's an interesting combo. rand paul couldn't convince howard university students that republicans are defenders of black americans' aspirations and couldn't convince jon stewart, either. the sideshow with jon stewart is coming up next. this is "hardball," the place for politics. but with advair, i'm breathing better. so now i can help make this a great block party. ♪ [ male announcer ] advair is clinically proven to help significantly improve lung function. unlike most copd medications, advair contains both an anti-inflammatory

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it's your bank account that might explode. so get allstate. [ dennis ] good hands. good home. make sure you have the right home protection. talk to an allstate agent. ha! back to "hardball." now to the sideshow. earlier this week i told you about rand paul's effort to reach out to minority voters by giving a speech at the historically black howard university here in washington. well, not everyone would call his speech a smashing success. here's jon stewart with a recap. >> we see horrible jim crow and horrible racism that happened in the '30s, '40s, '50s. it was all democrats. it wasn't republicans.

>> right. but for the most part, those bigoted democrats of the '30s, '40s and '50s became republicans post the modern civil rights era. because of it. so you can't just yadda, yadda, yadda the last 60 republican years. the problem with this theory that all that stands between the republicans and a plurality of the black vote is a history lesson is, well, enjoy. >> if i would have said who do you think the founders of the naacp are, do you think they were republicans or democrats? would everybody in here know they were all republicans? >> yes. >> all right. all right. you know more than i know. i don't mean that to be insulting. i don't know what you know.

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the u.s. will defend its ally if north korea laurnches a missile at south korea. a tornado hit the east coast dumping heavy rain and sleet. the annual fleet week in six cities is the latest casualties of the sequester cuts. the navy will cut back on a number of ships participating in the celebration. back to "hardball." back to "hardball."

in recent weeks, weave reported on states that have adopted some of the strictest abortion laws in the country. alabama, arkansas, kansas, north dakota. today virginia joined the list. this morning. the state board of health voted to approve new regulations that would require abortion clinics to comply with hospital-style building codes. this would require costly construction for many clinics. the elective, actually the executive director of planned parenthood in virginia said, these are "onerous and unnecessary architectural requirements. they could cause some of the state's 20 abortion providers to close." there's more restrictive legislation in the pipeline. today an institute that is a well respected pro choice research group came out with a report showing during the first few months of 2012, state legislators introduced 326 provisions that would restrict abortion access.

326. there it is. these republican dominated state legislator realized they can't make abortion illegal before the courts so try to make it impossible. joining me is the managing editor of the grio. and elizabeth nash. let me ask you, i just met you, elizabeth. tell me about this pattern of bold red states with bold red legislatures which are both houses if they have two houses. all republicans. most he all hardline conservatives and a hardline or very conservative governor. they basically have the power to do what they want. what are the different patterns of what they're doing to make abortion illegal or impossible? >> it's almost to say what pattern is out there because there are so many different bills we're seeing. they're trying to limit access to health care coverage for abortion. they're establishing more of these clinic regulations that only apply to abortion clinics. they're taking on issues like requiring ultrasounds before an abortion. and now we're even seeing them move toward banning abortion. so not only -- >> how do they do that under the

law? >> well, we've seen two legislatures this year ban abortion at 12 weeks in arkansas and 6 weeks in north dakota. and that totally flies in the face of what roe and casey stand for. all of the supreme court decisions around abortion. they're enacting these laws. >> basically they're closing the window? >> well, yeah, they're saying you can't have an abortion before a certain timeframe. when you're talking about six weeks, that's essentially a complete abortion ban. >> most women don't know they're pregnant at that point. republican-run states have become the laboratories for restricting abortions. north dakota recently passed the heartbeat bill which bans abortions after six weeks. arkansas passed a law banning abortions of 12 weeks as you said. arizona bans abortions after 18 weeks.

all the rest of the states in yellow ban abortions after 20 weeks. of the 16 states with the most restrictive abortion laws, 14 of the 16 have republican governors. all this is happening while the public increasingly supports broader rights. it's almost like the issue of background checks on gun. we have a very strong pro-choice country. yet when you go to the red states where they control the whole game, they're pushing this thing. why do you think this is going on after all these years of roe v. wade? 40 years of roe v. wade. >> we just celebrated the 40th anniversary of roe. what we saw in 2010 were these elections at the state level where very conservative candidates became lawmakers. this tea party movement. and right when they became lawmakers, right in 2011, we started to see these abortion restrictions really take off. they have just gone after the social issue like nobody's business.

>> joy, get in here. i think this is a classic geographic situation we have in our country. their attitude is, yeah, have your abortions in new york, massachusetts, go ahead. back here, back here we're going to have our own law and effectively get around the supreme court. i think this is -- my hunch maybe because i'm an optimist, within a year or two we're going to get to the supreme court and wipe this stuff away, they're going to clean the brush away. >> that's not what they were betting on. when i was growing up, the right to life movement, the persuasion model of rolling back abortion, public protests to persuade people to their point of view. what they're doing now, building a berlin wall around red states where they squeeze abortion out of existence. they make it that the regulations, these people are against regulations by the government, use regulations and legislative tricks to make it almost impossible to obtain an abortion though they technically don't ban it. i think one of the strategies these guys are pursuing is they're going right up to the limits.

the legal limits and testing how far they can eat into roe before the other side, the pro-choice side, takes them to court. they're almost daring the pro-choice side to take them to court because i think a lot of people in the antiabortion world believe it they can get a case to the supreme court, this court would actually overturn roe. if they can get roe overturned it goes back to the states and state-by-state they can ban it. >> let me go back to this piecemeal approach. if all you're doing is saying to a young woman or older woman who wants an abortion, wants the option, living in a place like north dakota, know they're going to have a make a long car ride to go somewhere where you can, to a clinic in another state, they're not really stopping people from having abortions. they're simply putting more miles on their car. to be blunt about it, they're really making it a little more difficult. i don't think in many cases they're really stopping a person from having an abortion. they're simply punishing them. do vaginal stuff, screenings, questions and all this so-called counseling.

it's not to change anybody's mind. it's to bother them. >> it's to make it almost impossible, to make it too much trouble to do it so they can force people that -- >> you don't think it's going to stop people from having an abortion by this stuff? let me go back to you, the expert. how do they stop you? when you get money together, i'm not saying everybody is rich, but you do whatever it took if you didn't want to have a baby. >> there's that. wealthier women have those resources. >> wealthier. who is unable to get some money together to get in a car, a bus ride, to get out of the state to have an abortion? >> it costs $450 for your average first trimester abortion. you have to arrange for childcare. >> that's planned parenthood. >> you have to arrange for childcare. 60% of women having abortions already have kids. if you're working a low-end minimum-wage job, can you take -- >> i don't want to be too tough here. you have a good argument here. you would still choose to have a baby rather than do that? you'd say that's easier? >> well, when you can't come up with the money and time off of work at that moment when you're

pregnant, your other option is to have a baby. >> and chris -- >> you think that's what happens, you think? >> i think that is what happens. >> i don't think they necessarily have to go -- at this point they're not trying to persuade the women anymore. they're stopping the doctors. goal is to shut down the clinics to make it actually physically impossible. the regulations don't target the women except for the vaginal probes. they're targeting the clinics, themselves, and the doctors. they're making it hard to operate a business of a clinic. there are some states that have one abortion clinics. kansas or mississippi. they're making it so it's physically impossible. so you have to literally leave the state. they're going to make it as hard as possible and build these berlin walls where they can say, in kansas we stopped abortion. >> my hunch is what they want to do is humiliate people, make people feel bad. they want to win what they think is the moral argument by making it. anyway. the expert. thank you. i'm learning all the time. thank you, elizabeth, for coming. the number one place to find the facts out about this whole question of abortion. anyway, thanks, joy reid. have a nice weekend. >> you, too. up next "hardball" goes hollywood. the great dennis quaid joins us. this guy has been in so many great movies. this is "hardball," the place for politics. [ female announcer ] birdhouse plans. nacho pans.

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catch this. we here at "hardball" love polls. here's one reason why you might want to be careful when you hear some surprising number. the "huffington post" and ugov asked people what they thought after the public affairs act of 1975. when told that president obama opposed it, 39% of republicans disagreed. compared to just 3% of democrats. when told the republicans in

congress opposed it, that's republicans, the numbers were reversed. this time only 4% of republicans disagreed, while 28% of democrats disagreed. as you may have figured out by now, there's no such thing as the 1975 public affairs act. bottom line, people will answer questions on subjects they know nothing about. but keep in mind the next time, that in mind the next time you hear a poll result. especially if it's got anything to do about obama, the other guys hate it. we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] you are a business pro. omnipotent of opportunity. you know how to mix business... with business. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle. and go. you can even take a full-size or above.

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and look at quaid's upcoming film "at any price." a movie about a money-hungry farmer. i thought all farmers were good, trying to dominate out of the market. take a look at this clip. it's pretty rip. it's pretty rough. a successful farmer, henry wipple tries to buy a dead farmer's land at the guy's funeral. >> i know your dad owned 200 acres that he rented out. >> what are you getting at? >> well, seeing as how you look down on the big city of st. louis, i know it's going to be a terrible hassle for you to oversee that property and i just wanted to let you know that i'm prepared to take it off your hands. >> get out of here. >> you don't have to decide now. when the time is right, you can have time to talk it over. >> i said go away. you're sick. you're stingy kind of people. elizabeth can't deal with this.

and i don't ever want it come back it iowa again. >> going price is 8,000 an acre. where do we sign? >> there's the devil for you. wow. rural america can be just as cutthroat as corporate america. dennis quaid, the director ramin, thank you, ramin, thank you, dennis. a face i've been watching all my life. you didn't know i was out there watching. >> you, too. >> thank you. let me ask you about this -- it's almost like roller derby. the job of the farmer is to screw other farmer to get more land. >> this is not your typical farm film for sure. wall street has come to the heartland of america. the only thing missing are the skyscrapers. the family farm is disappearing in this country and it's become -- it's pitting neighbor against neighbor because the motto is expand or die, get it big or get out. henry wipple is involved in this

system and has been corrupted by it in a sense. and it's -- he -- the character is based loosely on chasing the american dream and becoming corrupt by that and it's a weight that he gives this exterior of a very sure confident person but there's a lot of self-loathing that goes on inside him. >> ramin, what is this about the american -- the farmer, it's like the small single screen movie theater has a hard time, right? >> yeah. >> everything has to be a multiplex. >> is that going on in iowa in places like where you're shooting? >> definitely. the farm is not 100 acres anymore. it's 5, 10,000 acres. it's a big business. >> what's the economy at scale? >> it's like any economy at scale. it's like walmart. >> what walmart is doing to main street? >> exactly. the bigger you are, the more deals you can negotiate, the more people you can put into the fda to get what you want and that keeps adding pressures and

pressures and pressures to people. >> let me ask you about how the farmer is going to like this. it shows the midwest. are they going to see themselves and say, there are sharks out there? >> well, the majority of the people in the midwest are really great people and people that we met. this particular character, henry wipple, the herman family whose property we shot on have seen the film and they were glad that they were not portrayed as rude. >> they like this. >> farming is a big multinational global business now. >> let's take a look at -- there's a little violence in this movie so we've got to go to the topic of du jour. how many movies have you been in where there's violence. i don't think of you that way. >> excuse me? >> i don't think of you in violent films. >> i've been in a few, action where i've carried a gun or whatever. >> the last of the die hard movie, i'm sure it is the last -- >> i hope so.

>> the violence level, you know, it's something. i just saw the one about the white house -- the fall of olympus. i don't mind comic book stuff but when it's sadistic and guys get blown away and you see the whole thing, what do you think, mr. director? >> you know, i would agree with you. it's not my style or my taste. >> do you think it teaches kids how to behave? campbell brown used to be in our business. she thinks it is. >> what i think it is really strange is you can graduate high school without taking a class in media. the phone, internet, how it can impact you. i don't know how you can graduate without taking a class in media. >> how it impacts the truth? >> yes, and how it makes you think about things you weren't thinking about before, impacts you. >> that's a sophisticated answer. >> we tried. >> i've got to do a little praising of this guy. "far from heaven" with julianne moore was amazing. >> thank you.

>> like our government -- this guy add marriage that wasn't real. and it's horrendous, that situation. >> what a situation to be in. >> you're married to julianne moore and you're not interested. >> right. >> "breaking away," i don't think there's a person watching this show that doesn't consider it one of their personal experiences in life. why do you think that grabbed everyone, the working class kids against the swells in college. >> that was another midwestern story, really, and it was directed by an englishman and written by a chek immigrant. >> really? >> it had a freshness to it. it was a very special time. >> the name of the new movie? >> "at any price." roger ebert said it was his best performance. >> and what a great man he was. >> god bless him. he was the best. >> the best performance by dennis quaid. >> we're going to see it. i wish you see it, too. this weekend, right here. great time to see it. dennis quaid and ramin. when we finish, the gop heading in opposite directions. it's a civil war going on out there and we like to watch it. you're watching "hardball," the

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let me finish tonight with this. it's stunning what's happening to the republican party right now. they seem to be coming apart. look at how the religious conservatives are demanding that the party double down on their fight against gay marriage, how and the libertarian wing going hard against gun control. standing hard against any