this morning my question, did you hear about the little tv spot that caused all the fuss? plus, some crazy lady's plan to take people's children. and the un-flipping-believable way that it all spiralled out of control. yep, this is a conversation that we in nerd land welcome, so here we go. good morning. i'm melissa harris-perry. yes, that melissa harris-perry. the melissa harris-perry who has

heard from many of you about a promo by me running on this network. haven't seen it? well, here it is. >> we have never invested in much in public education as we should have. your kid is yours and totally your responsible. we haven't had a very collective notion of these are our children. so part of it is we have to breakthrough the private idea that kids belong to their parents and recognize that kids belong to whole communities. once it's everybody's responsibility and not just the households, then we start making better investments. so what i thought was a relatively benign statement about the need to invest more resources into the public education system has caused quite a conservative motion. as we trace the fish tail back that has garnered thousands of responses in the form of tv segments, e-mails, tweets and phone calls started as a short item on a conservative blog's

weekend traffic. it wasn't enough for sarah palin to find the spot un-flipping-believable. conservative host rush limbaugh, glenn beck and several on fox news devoted considerable air time to this 30-second ad run by and for another cable news network. >> do your children belong to you or do they belong to the government? now according to nbc news cable operation it's not you. >> according to msnbc your kids belong to the community. >> msnbc melissa harris-perry say kids don't actually belong to you. >> she claims that, quote, the community owns your children. >> what this is she's passing the buck. >> the nuclear family hads always been under attack by communists. by leftists. >> this is the intellectual love

child of the great society. everyone but no one is responsible. my own inbox overfloweth. even though my lean forward spot has been at the center of the storm it's not ian about me. i doubt the angriest doubt i personally want to take their children into my household. i assure my 11-year-old would not take kindly to me adopting 11 siblings for her. rather than felt hurt or angry, i felt curious about what is causing this very strong reaction and what this is exactly about in terms of this lean forward ad. i've done a bunch of them. why did this one get so many tongues wagging?

>> we have to breakthrough the idea that kids belong to their parents or kids belong to their families. >> i stand by that statement. families have first and primary care for their children it's a great deal of difference between policy and practice. only in extreme circumstances should instances remove them from families. but i believe our children are not our private property. they are not just extensions of ourselves. they are independent individual beings. they are the son and daughter ov lifelonging for itself. and though they are with you, they belong not to you. this is an argument of which reasonable people can disagree. and one more influential in

poetry thean policy and remote philosophical debate rarely drives news cycles unless, unless it's the core philosophical issue of our entire history. the balance between individual rights and collective responsibilities. this isn't about me wanting to take your kids, and this isn't about whether children are property. this is about whether we as a society expressing our collective whether through our public institutions including our government have a right to inhinge on individual freedoms in order to advance a common good. and that is exactly the fight that we have been having for a couple hundred years. even in the last election when underneath the layers of a we built this was the question of who we are as americans. are we a loosely affiliated group of individuals or are we a people tied to one another, the collective responsibility to care for our young, our elderly, our poor, even our infrastructure? it's an old question, but one that gained renewed meaning

after the financial collapse of 2007 left many asking whether the invisible hand of the market was enough or whether we need the joined hands of a ro bust social safety net to catch us when we fall. so this debate is not about me, but it is about us. it is about all of our major issues currently on our political agenda. what is a budget debate is not a conversation about finding the balance between rights and responsibilities. our ability to do our very best for our our children and the imperative that we use some of the resources to support children whose households have less than ours. the need to preserve the promise of the american dream for future generations because our kids who will inherit our nation belong to all of us. and we have a collective responsibility to them.

i hit a nerve with a 30-second promotional ad and the nerve that i hit is connected to the central nervous system of our democracy and the synopsises of engagement is the electric cold current that forges our more perfect union. rather than lash out at the offense, allow me to welcome the debate. with me at the table this morning, matt welch one of my favorite libertarian sparring partners and editor in chief ot "reason" magazine. and mya wylie. matt, i want to start with you because it feels to me like this is a negative/positive freedom. a libertarian versus big state question. where do you fall on? >> well, i know you're not going to steal my daughter because you didn't do it when you hads the chance. my problem with what your statement was was that from my perspective the premise of it was wrong. right? we don't lack for spending mur

on public education in this country. we spend three times as much per capital per student as we did in 1970 with the same results we had in 1970. so we already have a social contract where we said everywhere every kid has a the right to public education. that exists and yet public education is not performing. so a that is what we need to con front. not some notion that it's our overly private sense of our children that we have to somehow breakthrough. no, we've broken through that, actually, but what we haven't done is translate that to better education. >> it's interesting. we're going to get into education more concretely in the second hour. i do want to in part put a finger on what you just said. we have already broken through that. that is the part that i thought would be noncontroversial. i thought there was in fact on the left and the right the sense that look, kids are a part of our collective responsibility. no child left behind. it is -- it really has been surprising to me to discover

that the sort of angle of the debate this week wasn't about public education funding which to me is debatable. but instead whether or not we do have a private owner ship stake in our kids. >> one is the attack on what you said was taken grossly out of context by those on the attack and weren't talking about what you were talking about which is a debate about are we funding enough for public education or are we not, which is a legislate conversation. so i think we should acknowledge that was not either fair or intellectually very legislate. legitimate. but i do think you're raising an underlying point that what is the context? and we have seen it shifting. we have also seen arguments about the fact that it should shift, which is what you're pointing to. so, for example, in mississippi, where there have been tremendous end roads in changing the

education formula for a state that has one of the lowest performing public school systems in part that reform was to try to ensure that funds were going to the its who needed them the most. now mississippi has slashed the budget for the reformulation about how it spends. so it does have impacts on whether we're all taken care of each other's children. >> it's interesting that you bring up mississippi in part. as i am trying to think through the response, it's a place where i felt some sense of agreement with people on the other side of the reproductive choice argument. right? so people who have a position on pro-life typically also understand that the child is separate from the parent, right? it's for me that child begins with birth and for them child begins with conception. but they're based on the idea

that the child does not belong to you. in the first part of 2013 we've seen states post 694 new provisions to address unborn children. i was shocked the right would say to me your kid is to dispose of as you want. >> they need to recognize that there is a community responsibility for handling children or having public policy that affects children. kids and parenthood is kind of a sensitive topic. >> it is. no doubt. so when you say we have to get over the notion, people say hold on. this country accepts those not allowed to home school their

kids. they have a private notion of it. we have acknowledged as a country that you should be able to do that. >> i want to get into the policy questions of hows and education and we're going to stay on the top ib of sclektive responsibles. i want to listen to somebody else who said something different than this. my not so much ideological twin, collin powell. >> where the family is broken up not up to the task, the rest of us should step up to friend. kids who need responsible adults to show them the way. tens of thousands of our neighbors have stepped forward. they are a gift to us all. we are all responsible for them. 1942.

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for the last 40 years a bipartisan congress has kept low income families from becoming homeless. the section 8 voucher program offers a subsidy for families with children living below the poverty line. the elderly and people with disabilities who are able to afford housing without help. it's a policy decision that puts into action our collective understanding that every american has a right to safe, affordable place to call home. for the most part that policy has had solid support from both

sides in congress. ing in now. after congress dropped the meet cleaver of sequestration on march 1 hacking away on domestic spending, families like those will soon be the ones feeling the cuts. they will e limb that housing assistance for up to 140,000 families. this human cost is detail in a new report from the center on budget priorities. he joins us here today at the table along with lisa cook, assistant professor of economics and relations at michigan state university. greg, i want to start with you because you wrote passionately about this. >> well, we are just moving in the wrong direction. if you think about the people receiving housing vouchers, the

average income is $12,500 a year. half are people with disabilities or seniors. the other half are families with children. only device did we not renew the vouchers, did we cut them down. thouz voipers have not come back. if we go in this direction, $140,000, 140,000 lost we cannot count on them coming back any time soon. even though the demand for them is rising. so this is about expanding eligibility. even at this moment one in four receive them. we were looking at how it will create a funding shortfall. you can see the little cuts and then there's a huge cut that happens when sequestration hits and all the sudden you see a big dramatic drop.

yeah. there's the drop that happened with the short fall. we could make an ethical or moral about about the need to help people without needs find housing. but what is the economic cost? is this homelessness is the first thing we should be concerned about. we should be concerned about the economy. so what we have is housing recovery. we have housing starts increasing. we have housing starts increasing. we want to keep this going. this is still a fragile recovery. one more knock, this could be death by a million cuts. >> so matt, i know that section 8 is exactly the kind of sort of market intervention by the

government. that will create a lot that you don't need to be creating. >> let's pull the focus back here and talk about them as a whole. barack obama's first was #$.6 trillion. so we have spent a lot more money as a government. so every government program, military, everything has been goosed for the last ten years. when you cut this much and have these terrible outcomes, you have to ask what we did do with that money before? you're competing for different things. that money is not going to section 8. so everyone needs to look around. why is the cost of government going through the roof? >> yeah, you're definitely not going to get me to support it.

like, yeah, let's get rid of it. that's the kind of giveaway that is problematic. the one thing i wonder about is the way that you foorm youlated that. you said there's a zero sum gain which also assumes a fixed pie. the other possibility is you can ask wealthier people to pay a fairer share. >> that's right. of course part of that increase in spending matt is talking about went to try to re-energize the economy to the tune of over $700 billion, which the exact same thing that george bush did. so there's no question that there are times when we must spend, we should spend. we also have to look at what we're spending on. the reality is we've also been cutting rev new. if we don't think about how we have corporations who are getting public dollars to make private profit are also often paying very little to nothing in

taxes, so they're not part of investing in our children's future collectively the way the rest of us are. >> and also while i agree that we need to look at how money is spent, obviously, there's still the issue of these 140,000 families. and this is already starting to take effect. i'm not trying to pick on northerly. >> go for it. >> they have given vouchers to 700 families on the waying list. they said, hold on. we need those back. and that's not just new orleans. that's happening in a lot of places. normally say i have a voucher and then i get a good job so i don't need it anymore. they're not giving them out. san diego said no more voichers until 2014. 30,000 people are on the waiting list. so ultimately -- and they're writing people who have vouchers now saying you're good, but by the end of the year you may not have it.

and all of these things by doug rice who did a phenomenal job, they suggest they will drive families to neighborhoods with higher crime, lower performing schools and less access to jobs. >> and the impact then on children is a lifetime impact. so children in deep poverty in their young years end up having lifetime -- 70% likelihood that they will also live in poverty. there is another side that we will continue to talk about. that's the piece at the top. before we go to break, it feels like a good time to mention it. my book is now out in paperback. just saying. up next. we're going to continue to talk about the housing issue and how you may still lose your house. [ male announcer ] it's simple physics... a body at rest tends to stay at rest... while a body in motion tends to stay in motion.

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what i'm holding in my hand is a detailed list of the abusive practices of 11 big banks that led to million home fore dloe sures. this is a joint investigation between the comp controllers office and the federal reserve. it shows the extent of the errors and wrong doings that were features, not bugs f the closings. the numbers are staggering. more than 1,000 members of the military with completed foreclosures, which means they were convicted from their homes in violation of federal law. the banks agreed not to go after foreclosure. more than 250,000 people who worked out a plan and had their homes taken by the banks anyway. and then there are the 679 people whose loans were not in

default. who never missed a mortgage payment. 53 pk of those people lost their homes. yesterday checks went in the million to the first of 4 million people settlement for the banks. with with the vast majority receiving $300 each, it will be cold comfort after the loss of their homes. mercedes is the deputy mayor of housing to the los angeles mayor, the general manage of the los angeles housing department and former department of housing and urban development assistant secretary for community planning and development. talk about this. it feels like it's a lust rative that the banks have, that there's not one standard. >> i think that's true there wasn't one standard. we all thought there was an industry standard and somewhere

there was something like a clipboard, and everyone is following the same script. but we're finding it wasn't engineered to hold the scale of problem that this was. >> let me ask you this, and this is a tough one that may get me into trouble. but is part of what is going on that it's time for us to rethink the id logical impairtive towards homeowner ship as equivalent to the american dream and invest in rental housing and low-income housing. is it time for us to rethink that a little bit? >> there's no question dm my mind. i can tell you for sure the administration always felt that we need something more. homeowner ship is a wonderful thing. but we're a city of renters. over 60% of us rent.

the american dream is about making sure that your children do better than you do. if you can get your kids into college and provide for them, that is what is important. although a wonderful thing it should work for everybody and we should make sure the products that we use t decent rate long-term investment is what we're doing, not what led us to very bad products and has a lot of families making difficult decisions. zbr i think that balance between the decisions that homeowners and families are making trying to get into homes versus the products being offered, how should we see the balance in terms of where the fault lies? >> it lies in so many different

places. the first is with the banks who inadequately informed the individual who is took out the mortgages. . the other fault is with the regulators who were not watching this and creating policy to see that it wasn't happening. individuals have to -- we have to become more financially educated about these products and ask for more, demand more. as you were saying before the big, big problem is going to be 10 to 15 years for now we're going to have a generation of kids. multily 140,000 times two. each of the kids in a new high crime area. now where are the costs going to go up? they're going to go up in

prisons, in homeless shelters, this a general problem. you pay now and pay little or you pay later and you pay a lot and you don't get the outcome you want. >> let me ask you one last question. the sequestration is going to hit localities. you're in los angeles. what is it going to mean for housing decisions being made in l.a.? >> this is going to have a devastating impact on the city of los angeles. we have been working on the homeless issue. we have a difficult problem here. and at the moment we have over 400 vouchers, not unlike what was sed about new orleans that are formally homeless folks, both veterans and families looking for housing now. those will be the first in and last hout. these are the folks that will lose the opportunity to find housing. it's really critical. >> thank you to mercedes marquette in los angeles. i'm going to get the rest of the panel back in on this topic as soon as we come back.

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with a prepaid card. spends like cash. feels like membership. those families that have been victims of illegal foreclosures, will you be giving them the information in your possession about how the banks illegally foreclosed against them? mr. ashton? >> i think that's a decision that we're still considering. we haven't made a final final decision yet. >> so you have made a decision to protect the banks, but not a decision to tell the families who were illegally foreclosed against? >> i saw you wanting to jump in on exactly this issue before the break. >> there's so much to say on this issue. i don't know where to start. but the important thing about this conversation is we do need a balanced housing policy and in

my cities it's cheaper to own a home and to pay a mortgage than to pay rent. at the same time you can grow assets. you can grow wealth to help you invest in your children. and the important thing about that particularly for communities of color, this voucher issue, you know, a lot of people of color with this voucher have a hard time finding a landlord who will rent to them. so we have to be honest about that. the mobility issue is big and important, but we can't assume it just because a person has the voucher they will be able to make use of the voucher. some of the cuts are for getting the assistance to find the place to take the voucher. and the support systems are cut as well. >> it's such an important point that you made. on one hand there's an imperative to homeownership. oh, we have to do away with that. for african-american communities, the evaporation of wealth since 2008. and the all the wealth that was in their homes.

how are they going to rebuild it? how do they regrow it? >> that's an essential question. so what we know about homeowner ship and being in homes, not just purchasing a home, is that students, children in those homes have the opportunity to study quietly. study in dedicated spaces, for example, just on a simple level. so again what we're thinking about is either we pay now or we pay later. this is going to have devastating effects. if we're asking how to rebuild wealth, we have to consider homeownership and a lot of other things. back to financial education. maybe we need to learn to diversify our assets a lot more. and some of them are not performing the way they did ten years ago. >> and that child investment piece, when you were talking about things that go wrong when you end up in these

circumstances, you talk about led poisoning. >> yeah. definitely one of the -- a lot of programs are being cut. and one of the programs is to minimize exposure to led for children in older units. so that's one of the things being cut. so that's going to be a problem. but on this issue of the foreclosure report and the big banks, they are horrible numbers. i can't think that anybody is really shocked that this is the bank's behavior. six banks still control 73% of the banking the assets. so i really think we need to take on the big banks directly. on tuesday u.s. bank is having an annual shareholders meeting. they're in idaho because last year activists took over the meeting. so they're going to ohio.

but the activists are coming from ohio. and citizens from dpoo. so these are people coming together from far and wide to help the neighbors with the issues. house as a government policy is well intentioned, cleaning up trying to create the dpakt opposite of what you want. with over insent vise homeowner ship and drive up the cost. look around the country where housing is cheapest compared to what it should be. or what we think of as normal. texas has very cheap housing. they don't say we're going to pass this law for affordable housing. they don't care that much. they don't have all the sort of government things that add to the costs of it. >> we have to go because there's commercials paying for the show and all that, but there are really market distortions that

occur as a variety of reasons. but when you have low-income folk who is are priced out, the economic supports, right, for example, the city of new york without low-income housing programs for the government, all of the people who work to may the city runs. >> and those programs help create the middle class. there are fixes we need. >> thanks to greg and lisa. matt and maya will stick around. they'll be back later in the program. up next, community outreach gone wrong. it's my letter to senator rand paul. [ male announcer ] when you take shortcuts,

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lecture at howard university. i feel a little possessive of it and pay careful attention to senator rand paul's address. dear senator rand paul, it's me, melissa. apparently you had trepidation about your visit to the land of the bison this week. you said some thought you were brave or crazy to speak on campus? it strikes me the mission of a university to give students an opportunity to st hear viewpoints and interact with political leaders and to address the major characters of the day. it's just part of howard's mission. maybe you were nervous because you know your ideology stands opposed to the impals that gave birth to howard in the first place. howard university was established by the federal government. congress recognized our nation's responsibility to offer educational opportunities for the generations born into

freedom. so congress in an act of responsibility towards young people established howard and later authorized appropriation for the construction, development, improvement and main nans. you left that story out of your fascinating revisionist history. this moment was a gem, though. >> i think african-americans understood republicans did championcitizenship and voting rights. but they became impatient. >> okay. so your theory is african-american voters lft the republican party because they didn't get enough free stuff. after democratic president lyndon johnson signed the civil rights act and the voting rights act passed by the democrats in congress and after those acts

established a frame work from black citizens to exercise and enjoy equal protections. it was white dixiecrats who left the party. those who refused to support civil rights gain was clear the best party was the republican party. so large majority voters become republican voters because they opposed civil rights. we know about opposition to civil rights legislation, don't you? even though you said i've never been against the civil rights act ever. but in 2010 during an interview with the courier journal you said you do not support bans on discrimination by privately owned businesses, and that would mean those students from another

historically black college would have had to live with the private decision to deny them a place to sit at that lunch counter. maybe republicans like you don't count that as opposition to the republicans rights act but i bet many howard students do. >> i i don't mean that to be insulting. i'm trying to find out what the connection is. so, senator paul, i hope you enjoyed your time at howard and the republican ft and engaged audience that you encountered. if you want to do better with african-american voters, we don't need you to explain our history. hey, we're willing to listen, sincerely, melissa. [ jackie ] it's just so frustrating...

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i'm up next, but now i'm singing the heartburn blues. hold on, prilosec isn't for fast relief. cue up alka-seltzer. it stops heartburn fast.

>> when it comes to collective responsibility, my next guest is a true team player. he first made headlines in 2009 when he announced his support for same-sex marriage. it grew louder as he used the big game at another platform to spread his message of equality. just a few weeks ago he took his support one step further to the supreme court as it heard arguments on proposition 8. >> we're not only strengthening the family units and the communities by marriage equality. we're strengthening schools. we're allowing kids to stand up taller and be more confident and happier people. we're strengthening america, and

we're also strengthening locker rooms all across the country. no matter what sport it is, you can play. >> i got to say, it sounds like batman thinks we have a collective responsibility to make the world better for all of our kids and i'm proud to have bren don here at the table. good morning. >> thank you, melissa. i don't know why the power outage happened. thanks for playing ch i want to ask specifically on this question, why this issue. if this isn't your issue, if you yourself are not gay, why does this matter? >> last night i had the pleasure to see 42. in that movie the "n" word was thrown around so much. my daughter doesn't know anything about the "n" word. a homophobic slur, my daughter does not know. and she does not associate gay

with anything negative. so it's such an important issue. it's bigger than lgbt rights. it's about civil rights. is so we're headed to a place of equality. i have to do my part as an ally. and this is the way that i'm doing it. >> one of the things that can happen is the press attention becomes you. aren't you a great guy that you're standing up as the ally. i felt it together, too. but how do we make sure to keep the attention on the communities for whom we are serving as an ally? >> i'm not going to ask for permission. i will ask for an apology if i go overboard. while the issue is so present we

have to do as much as we can. if you go back seven months, look at all the change. in four states legislation has changed in one way or another. we've had so many delegates for the republican party that have come over. over 120 former and current and we've made so much progress so we're stri striking while it's hot. we're going to look back on this issue sooner or later like we look back at race schism. >> why are professional sports such an important space? >> well, we feel that we're a lit bit behind. we're trying to influence the kids and the children. ultimately they will be running the country in the future. i'm not going to say we should wait for the people to die who don't believe in inequality. we want to go influence the kids because they ultimately are the ones who will make the

difference. >> i think of little league sports as being such an important part of teaching values and discipline. >> yeah, in sports we're behind. if you can play, you play. let's go out there and teach an inclusive sports environment, a team environment, and let's work together to push onto social issues as well. >> i'm a big fan of team sports. we know it makes a big difference for kids. brendan, thank you for joining us in nerd land. appreciate it. coming up next, the actual message in my lean forward spot that seemed to get missed. plus, the first lady returns home to her community. how first lady michelle obama is changing the gun debate. ♪ roundup

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welcome back. i'm melissa harris-perry. we've been talking about the controversy that erupted over a promo ad i shot for the network in which i talk about the community involvement in the line of our children. somewhere along the line the main intent of the statement, in fact the very first line got lost. >> we have never invested as much in public education as we should have. so that's it. that was this thing i was going for. my main point is we need to invest more into our public education. but all things considered at least i'm still here and able to give my response. getting more hate mail than me this week, even though she's no

longer with us is margaret thatcher. chef not remembered fondly by all. and in part because of her campaign to privatize britain's industries. and across the pond, president reagan was taking similar steps. both have in large part set the stage that my promo ad was di bued upon. both leaders saw the countries as nations at risk. and so their answer was reper nation via competition. it manifested in the policy of school choice. but the lasting impulse to seek

solutions to our public sector problems with the private market. and it is with that backdrop that my as for more public investment in public education was meant. when i see there's a collective problem i think there's a collective solution. matt welch is with us. maya wylie, founder and president of the center of social inclusion. she's na wright, president and ceo of united way and lisa cook and michigan state university. so we come back to you, matt. early in the show you said, that's just not right. we have not failed to invest. make your claim. >> we spend on average since 1970 about three times as much. >> as we did previously? >> as we did previously. that's a graph that goes like this. the achievement graph goes like this. it says to me the question is not are we investing enough? it's how is the money being

invested and why isn't it working? >> when i look at dollars spent per student, it's down in most states since 2008. you're talking about a longer trend line that you say is going up like this. when i look at per state spending, those red lines are the amount down that it is. the only ones on the plus side are tennessee to north dakota. and that's since 2008. >> does that measure stimulus and federal money? >> so as far as i understand these are, in fact, all dollars spent per student in these localities. now that drop is recent over the longer trend line that you're suggesting. let me ask you this. is it possible that we are missing some of the dollars that we are spending because we're not really spending them on education. we're spending them on free and

reduced lunches. we're spending them on things that other kids already come to school with. they're getting invested in poverty alleviation resources. >> they're also getting invested in administration, famously. it's not necessarily going straight to teachers. teachers claim they haven't seen their budgets go up by three times. so it hasn't been spent wisely in the classroom. >> you are asking a really important question, melissa. when we're looking at education spending, charter schools, one of the big innovations to help us crack the achievement issues is charter schools. there's some really, really good charter schools. there's some really, really bad charter schools. in texas the administrative costs are are twice the

administrative costs of public schools. we saw in in mississippi as well. low income schools that were predominantly black had higher administrative costs. if you look under that you can see what they're talking about. they are trying to supplement a lot of needs from being in high poverty communities. and you can't solve schools and educational achievement if you're not looking at what kind of investments we're making in families and communities. >> i would agree that certainly we have to think about how we are spending the money but i would also think about the level. i guess i'm the only person who teaches at a public university here. and it seems to me that i am not getting what actually the university needs and what the students need. so because of the $1.1 trillion college problem and because of the recession, we have less tools to deal with the

tremendous demand that has grown in public schools and public universities. so, yes, relative to our pay, the administrator's pay is going up. i'm not saying much more, because i don't want to get in trouble. we're going to leave it at that. but certainly the demand is come coming to our side. we cannot meet this overwhelming demand. we have to be able to provide better value for money. and we have to educate all of our children as much as we can. either collectively or individually but the dollars have to come from the federal government, i think. >> and another really important issue the the profound disparity in the allocation of resources. new york state was the subject of a major lawsuit from the campaign for fiscal equity, which really laid out very concretely that lower income communities were not getting their fair share of what was

supposed to be allocated pure pupil. and it was a deliberate act. so even in the decline or the increase or whatever it may be in the most challenged communities, they're not getting their fair share. >> and this is a historic wrong. so this is also, i guess, part of my concern about the sort of long time line. so i had a student who wrote a brilliant thesis about inequi inequities in the public school system and was looking at numbers in the city of new orleans, in the state of louisiana in 1930s and '40s where # $3 was spent for white child and $17 per black child and these schools had sort of 27 students per cheech r teacher in white schools but 42 per teacher in black schools. but it does dig a whole quite deep that even when you start putting resources in, it doesn't get us to a space.

>> my kids are in the public school system in new york. and the elementary school that my 9-year-old is in is predominantly free lunch. there's going to be 150 languages in the school. it's highly deverse. it's diverse non-white. and it's low income. and the thing that i see in that school -- but that school is in a district that's a high wealth district. so even though it's a low -- the population of the school but for my kids and a few others are low income, it's benefitting from a district that is able to provide additional resources to the school. so i see it every day in my kids' classroom. i recognize the difference in the school that's by way four blocks away from my house as well with the same student population in a different district, and districts are not supposed to have meaning in a new york city school system, but it still does. there's no wealth in that district. so we can't separate these

things. the costs of educating the kids are not the same. >> but even that you can have a relatively poor public school system wen a wealthy district, i wonder about the question of school choice and parental choice for kids. part of how it happens is wealthy families started opting out of the school systems, right? even the white flight that we saw from schools and then just the wealth flight, right? from these schools. so on one hand i want people to have choice. who doesn't want parents to be able to do the best for their kids. but i worry about what is left behind. >> yes. the way i look at it is this. i just moved from washington, d.c. to brooklyn, new york. i moved -- >> we're not neighbors. because ps-58 is a damn good school and they have a french emersion class for kindergarten. it's perfect for my daughters. that ain't a cheap neighborhood precisely because of the school.

i can't just miranda rulely justify a system in which i have that choice and the mobility to move, but people who don't have the means to do that are sentenced to their neighborhood school. i can't justify that system. and the the achievement is yet to be seen. it's about a wash of schools of choice. but parental satisfaction is much higher. that says to me that it means something. >> we are going to stay on this conversation. i encourage everyone at home to engage in the conversation with us on our website. and anyone in the market for a lovely, slightly used pink sweater? i have put on ebay the sweater i wore when reporting the lean forward spot. all proceeds will go to the childrens defense fund. go bid on the sweater. stay right there. after the break, where president george w. bush and i agree. [ male announcer ] in your lifetime,

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the federal government can spend money, and we can help set standards. and we can insist upon accountability. but the truth of the matter is our schools will flourish when citizens join in the noble cause of making sure no child is left behind. >> that is president george w. bush sounding no child left behind and sounding like me in the lean forward commercial. no, not really. maybe a little bit this the sense that i can't help but to agree with him there. we all have a stake in making sure no child in the country is left out or left behind when it comes to education. i want to ask you about how then

organizations like united way and others in the non-profit sector fill the gap when parents can't. >> united way supports over 1,000 nonprofits. they are on the front lines in communities where the schools are failing. they stand in the gap. they're providing the after school services, the support for families, the financial empowerment, affordable housing, stability. all of those things that families and children need in order to be successful in school. and so without that safety net that's created by this incredibly important industry and sector, our children will not be successful in school. all of those things impact the outcome. >> make an argument for me. i could be a supporter of things like united way or a nonprofit and say as many conservatives do that is exactly what civil society should do. government should not be in the business of that. individuals should make a choice about donating some portion of their income or the sale of their pink sweaters to plaks

like united way. >> the public sector absolutely has to invest in educational infrastructure and all the things that we need. we do need the collective resources of the entire community in order to support really important social supports for families. it's absolutely imperative. when you talk about the historical underpinning of the disparities and investment. the black children got 17 and the chit children got $63. we have to understand and appreciate that our educational system is based on an inequity and disparity. it was built to ensure that we had a working class. they deny need a certain level of education. we wanted people to be able to be on the assembly lines, et cetera. now we have a knowledge based economy. we need everyone to have have the maximum opportunity to reach their full potential in order

for all of us to be successful. it impacts the gdp and business sector. everybody has to lean in to get the job done. >> so the problem with a collective good, though, a public good, is that there is always an individual incentive. there's always an individual incentive not to be the one person paying in so you can still get the collective good. what are the incentives for individuals and households to make sure that they're not supporting the public schools. >> so i will go back to what i was talking about earlier. you're going to pay one way or the other. the question is how smartly you're investing your money. let's say you don't invest in public education or nonprofits that help to support public education. so what is the outcome? what are these folks doing rather than getting educated? they're going to prison. and we're losing out not just on

gdp now but gdp in the future, well being in the future, and gdp isn't everything. but thelt and other desirable outcomes for the society will lose out. all of these will lose out if we don't say that we're going to contribute at some point. for me it is an investment question. are you going to do it now or are you going to do it later? >>. >> this is where we have to talk about race. if we recognize that we're an us, then it doesn't matter that eight, you know, that half of all 18-year-olds and under are black, latino, asian, native american, right? so when one of the things that we're seeing is, well people will make decisions about investing if we went to a pure private strategy, what they would say is i will invest in my neighborhood's school, so that's me taking care of my neighbor's kids. but most of our neighbors look like us, which means we're not

being recognized. a friend of mine once said to me i know what a high education costs. i was like, you do? i'm going to use that. he said, well, it's $15,000 a year. i said, well how do you know? he said because that's what the private school down the road is charging. i wen, good point. our kids are getting 8,000. so we can't say money doesn't matter when we know for moeks getting high levels of quality education they're paying a lot of money for it. the question is how to make sure that as we become more and more diverse ands living separately that we are making it beyond community. that's the model. we'll take care of who we know and who we know are people who tend to look like us so our resources are not being shared. >> but we don't live in the private charity model. we live a much more private

model on the higher education and higher education also works better. that's pretty widely acknowledged. you get a lot of k-through 12 people who can't cope. we're talking about the straw man of, you know, we're not sufficiently deciding to fund education. we kind of a are. kra, where i'm from, 40% of all money has to go to education, k through 12. that's just by law. another thing is kids are getting ensnared in the criminal justice system in the country. there has not been any political will to say that is wrong. we are creating 2 million prisoners here. and they're being locked up for things they should not be locked up. >> we're going to talk about that later in the show. the first lady showed

extraordinary empathy about guns. the gun piece and the drug war piece are interlocking for so many. but up next i got a little story about a little community activist who could help an 8-year-old turn back a bad bill. # i was cooking dinner for my family. boom. heart attack. the doctor recommends bayer aspirin to keep this from happening to me again. it's working. [ male announcer ] be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. it can happen to anyone. talk to your doctor. ♪ the middle of this special moment and i need to run off to the bathroom. ♪ i'm fed up with always having to put my bladder's needs ahead of my daughter. ♪

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families for parents or caretakers of recipients whose children fail to maintain story progress in school. the good news is he withdrew the bill on thursday. i would love to take credit and say our letter made all the difference but it looks like the credit may go to 8-year-old amaira. amira along with her confronted him about the bill on thursday. after she handed him a petition signed by 2500 opponents of the bill, amira was not done. she followed him down the hall asking why do you want to cut benefits for people? campfield walked away saying repeatedly he didn't think children should be used as political props. but little amira is not a prop. she's a constituent. someone to whom he and his fellow lawmakers have a responsibility. while she may be too young to vote, she's certainly old enough to have a voice, and she used it

during the state senator's entire walk to the chamber. she said i'm worried about the lights being cut off. he said. that won't happen if you have a decent parent that can show up to two conferences. that's the answer he gave to an 8-year-old girl, with his back turned as he was walking away from her. the answer he gave to a child indicating fear of the lights being cut off. thanks for making my point, mr. campfield because it seems that you're suggesting if you're a child and you're poor and you are not lucky enough to have a desent parent, no one should care what happened to you. but at least the kids won't have to worry about the lights getting turned off. if they don't make the grade. up next, how michelle obama has changed the gun control debate. switchgrass in argentina,

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the administration was pushing congress hard on gun control situation h this week. joe biden sat in for an interview on "morning joe" here on msnbc. the most compelling voice on guns this week belonged to first lady michelle obama who traveled to her hometown on wednesday to speak before a chicago business and community leaders. what followed was a passion not plea, not just about guns but children and one in particular. hydea was shot and killed in a chicago park about a week after performing at president obama's inauguration in january. >> and her mother did everything she could for her daughter. she enrolled her in every activity you could imagine. cheerleading, majorettes, the praised dance ministry, anything

to keep her off the streets and keep her busy. and as i visited with the pe pendelton family, i couldn't get over how familiar they felt to me. because what i realized was hidya's family was just like my family. she was me. and i was her. but i got to grow up. her family did everything right. but she didn't didn't have a chance. >> with this this morning is maya whooi lee. and university lisa cook. also with us in chicago is dennis johnson, a student at chicago state university and a member of the black youth project. hi, dennis. >> hello. how you doing? >> i'm so please that had you joined us this morning. can you start by telling me

about the role of guns in your own life? >> the role of guns here in chicago. they are pretty available. everywhere you go you can find a gun depending on what neighborhood you are in. and they are cheap. i don't know one black engineer or creator of guns. so the supply here in chicago's low-income community seems to be unlimited. >> i saw the video that you made for the black youth project. >> yes, ma'am. >> where you talk about the experience of your own brother being shot. talk about that. >> a couple of years ago, my oldest brother got shot seven times outside the green line in chicago. and his shooting woke me up. it was as if someone threw water on my face that it was time to take action and use knowledge.

and there was retaliation. but i decided there should be another way that we should take. so that's what incident is about. it's not just my brother. there's plenty of other brothers and sisters out there going through the same situation. >> i want to ask you about something the first lady said. she was also talking about the boys who have been arrested for her shooting. she said what if instead of roaming around with guns the boys had access to a computer lab or community center or decent basketball courts. maybe everything would have turned out differently. how do you respond to that? >> i respond to that with this. violence will never cease until we find a way to make money out of peace. that's how i would respond to that. we can bring as much as we want. because you can bring basketball games. what are they going to do when they get older?

you can have after-school programs. how do you deal with the post-traumatic stress. you can take them off the streets but they still have to go back home. >> absolutely. so let me pull out from my table. i feel like you have given us a lot to talk about. i was moved by the empathy the first lady had for her and the young men accused of the shooting. how do we intervene. if we're doing all the right things but the family next door is not, that can impact your child. >> it can and it will and it does, obviously. we ber veen by again taking that collective approach. what the young man just talked about is our young people have to have hope. they have to have aspirations. they have to see what they can achieve. that there's a path for prosperi prosperity. that they have a future. when our young people don't have

that, and don't have the opportunities and the skills to get there, then they start to lose hope. life becomes not so meaningful. those are things we have to tackle head on. how we give our children aspirations. how we show them the way and give them the tools and skills to achieve it. it's in our churches. it's in our homes. the in our schools. >> and can i just say, i hate to keep looking at everything through the lens of an economist, but that's who i am. i think this young man is onto something. he is dead right. until we have the data to estimate the costliness of gun violence what has been battled by the nra, we are not going to be able to realize the actual cost of gun violence.

let me tell you a story and my students who know this should turn off the television. i was a lobot -- in a public hospital. we had to get blood from everybody. so a lot of my time we spent in the emergency room. the most costly incident was a gunshot wound. that's not a stabbing victim. that's not the victim of a fistfight. but they were going to possibly die, more than a 50% probability that they were going to die. but there were so many resources at the hospital. and we can't calculate it because it's only the cdc now that can calculate statistics about deaths for gun violence. we vice president had the data. once we get the data and do the math it's going to be a

different ball game. when he's talking about some sort of dividend from peace the only way we're going to do it is when we have the data. >> what does that dividend from peace look like for you? we were saying young people can imagine a different future. what does the future look like for you? >> the north side of chicago. where you're able to walk and not have to worry about the police pulling you over, asking you where you're going or the people of the opposite race crossing the street or even the same race. where you're comfortable. where you don't have to keep looking behind you. where you can take a deep breath. enyou took the deep breath because it was a good day. not because you made it home. >> i asked can you envision a different world. oh, yeah, up the street. the other side of town. >> the neighborhood that has received public investment.

the neighborhood that has jobs. the neighborhood in which people have the ability to find and get work that pays their bills through the end of the month. and there's good research to show where we see the level of violence is correlation to high levels of poverty. economic and political exclusion and disinvestment. so the biggest tragedy in what the first lady's narrative is the suggestion that if they had made a mistake that it would somehow be their fault if she was killed. going back to your narrative of reason we all responsible for all of the nation's children, we would think what are we doing to create the conditions in communities that support children being able to grow into adulthood, and will we care if

the children do not look like our children. >> i'm so sorry. dennis, you blew my whole mind. that was an incredibly insightful answer. i really appreciate you joining us from chicago today. >> yes, ma'am. and listen, folks, we're going to talk about newtown when we come back. more on that. sir charles' single miles card left him blacked out. he's coming to us from home. that's gotta be traveling. now instead of covering the final four, he's stuck covering fourth graders. brick! bobby is 1 for 36. mikey? he keeps taking these low-percentage shots. and julio? i don't know what julio's doing. next time get the capital one venture card and fly any airline any time. what's in your wallet? can you get me mr. baldwin's autograph? get lost, kid. aaah! aaaaah! theres a guy on the window! do something, dad! aaaah! aaaah!

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the 14 republican senators who threatened to filibuster the vote got a social media message from the daughter of the late principal of sandy hook elementary. she sent this to senate minority leader mitch mcconnell's press conference. hey, here is a pic of my mom and sister on her wedding day. i don't get that at my wedding in july. this to senator pat roberts. my mom one gunned down at sandy hook. alison the baby there would will never know her grandma. going through the list of senators threatening to filibuster. calling them one by one. i will be heard. and the message got through. the the senate dodged the effort, agreeing 68-31 to allow the bill to proceed. what will happen when it goes to the republican led house. all right, newtown on the other

side of this. if that's one side, the other side is this mass killing. it did feel like one of the tings newtown did is move us to a gun control debate. because they were young. they were in school. they have families who have done everything right. is this where we finally get legislation? >> this is going to be a hard battle. i think the problem is that the national rifle association is spending a lot of gun manufacturer money to make sure gun manufacturers still make money. the reality is the nra is no longer representing members because most members support the legislation. >> background checks are not a controversial issue. and it's -- there's bipartisan support. wrour not saying to people you can't own guns. you're not saying you don't trust them. you're saying the one that used

the gun to threaten his wife, maybe he shouldn't have one. that guy with a felon record, maybe not him. and the woman with psychosis, maybe she shouldn't have the gun. so it's not very controversial and it won't go a long way to protect the young children of this world. so it's not ian a mass i reform. it's an porimportant reform. it's critically important, and it's not representing even the interest of gun owners. >> if part of what we are trying to talk about is balancing our rights over and again for the common good, public safety is a common good, but we also have a second amendment that has been at every point understood to mean that we have an individual right to gun ownership. >> actually it hasn't been understood until 2008 when the supreme court affirmed it. a lot of people debated that. that's one reason why they get

up when we talk about new gun control legislation. constitutionally we have the ability to control guns. one thing lost in the president on down is it's easy to tap into emotion and tauz it that your opposition is obviously in favor of dead children. >> and no one thinks that. >> or is scared of the national rifle sorks, which is an organization that wouldn't have any power if there wasn't popular support for gun owner ship in the country. there is. that's the problem. not this one lobbying organization. so all of these things we're talking about. the assault weapons ban has been studied. it wouldn't have any effect on the incident that precipitated this conversation. that's also true of background checks. that is worthying about or

bringing into the conversation before you change the law. >> let me deal with the emotion piece for a moment. one of the newtown moms gave the white house weekly radio address. >> i've heard people say the tidal wave of anguish has receded. but not for us. to us it feels as if it happened just yesterday. and in the four months since we lost our loved ones thousands of other americans have died at the end of a gun. so i support matt's point that we don't want to take people in opposition and say clearly you want children to die. on the other hand the availability of guns in our country, one of the predictable outcomes is that children will die. >> absolutely. >> and so there are two things here. i think it's absolutely true to say there is no gun owner that i believe wants children to die.

i think people should be able to own guns if responsibly and with good limits because of the impact of guns. with rational limits. interest to life and the protection of it and interest to private gun owner ship. and the governor of colorado said we in passing similar legislation did so in a libertarian state because we looked at the statistics, the data and found it made a huge difference in the number of former felons. people who threatened people with violent acts, prevents them from getting weapons they were trying to get. it's no that it has no impact or there's no benefit to it. it doesn't solve all the problems. >> but the incremental change is important. and we should appreciate that. and yeah, there has been a real difference in having these different voices and different vases.

in new york city across the country there are 3,000 young black men killed every day. the same number of people killed in the world trade center. every year. 3,000. that has been happening year after year after year. now we have some movement because there are different communities that are speaking out. and that is very important. we have to take every step we can but appreciate it's not solving all the problems. but the other piece, he said, you know, we need to show a dividend for peace. he also said guns are everywhere. might be can get them. they are cheap, cheap, cheap. if the price gets too high, we'll have less young people and everybody else dead. you know, tax the heck out of cigarettes. less people smoke. there's an economic imperative to making sure that people don't

have access. >> thank you so much. he did start off by saying guns, that's easy and changing that answer can help to change those lives. thank you to my panel, matt, maya, sheena and lisa. algs thanks to everyone at home who has e-mailed and tweeted and messaged and other and tweeted messaged and other ways of supporting this show during the week. we have a lot more about making the case for community up on our website at mhpshow.com. visit us there and continue the conversation. we are not done. up next, the collectist we get excited about every week. our foot soldier! oh, he's a fighter alright.

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every week we choose a foot soldier, someone who answers the call to collective responsibility, and this week that foot soldier is tonia lewis taylor, a singer and former publicist who founded entertainers for education alliance, a nonprofit program in new york that aims to help high school students stay in school. she grew up in brooklyn saand ss

she cease a piece of herself in every kid in her community. she pursued her dream of becoming a singer performing backups for mariah carey and mary j. bridge. in 2004 while traveling to schools with kanye west, tonia says she became aware of the staggering dropout rate plaguing many cities. every year more than 1 million students fail to graduate from high school on time, and nationwide only about 75% of the students earn their high school diplomas. that number drops even lower among minority students in urban areas. tonia decided to combine her love of kids and her resources in the entertainment industry to try and change those statistics. the entertainers for education alliance launched his first program in 2006 and it helps connect high school students with college mentors. it sponsors marching bands and offers workshops on things like

bullying and healthy eating habits. the students also have a journalism program called teen connect. entertainers for education uses celebrity star power to encourage kids to stay in school because tonia believes students are inspired when they have a chance to connect with successful people who look like them and have a similar background. even though she has four kids of her own, she says as long as she has life and health, her mission will always be to help others. so for increasing educational opportunities for our youth and showing a strong concern for the community that she calls home, tonia lewis taylor is our foot soldier of the week. lead touk we'd like to thank yvette fearson. so find out more about tonia and entertainers for education alliance check out mhpshow.com.

thanks our show for today. i will see you tomorrow morning 10:00 a.m. eastern. why? because beyonce and j ze went to cuba and it is all the uproar. cuba's complicated. we're going to talk about that on tomorrow's program. but now it is time for a preview of weekends with alex witt. >> aren't you going to ask beyonce to be on your show again. >> i basically spend all my time asking beyonce to be on the show. >> it's an open invitation. thanks so much, melissa. a budget battle building on capitol hill. congressman keith ellison would be joining me. are these the paintings of a killer? they're bringing in thousands of dollars and they're stirring controversy in a high profile murder case going on right now. the future is now. a new report about tv and movie provider netflix might surprise you. are that many people really watching? those stories and a lot more over the next couple hours right after the break. stay with me. my mother made the best toffee in the world.

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