human shields? let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. let me start with this. 80% of life once said is showing up. i've been watching this invasion of family, relatives, and friends are of those killed in newtown, connecticut. and we'll know soon if this will be the difference between action on gun safety and doing nothing. and when we do, we'll have a new estimate of what happens when regular people get out there and lobby congress. right there where it works.

what's different, of course, is that that's people are the ones most personally and permanently affected by the ability of the wrong people getting their hands on guns. i remember the old argument, guns don't kill people, people do. and that's where senator pat toomey is right. a wider, stronger background check on all commercial guns is not about what kind of guns are out there and what can be sold, it's about the people out there and who shouldn't have their hands on any gun. and this is where the battle for better background checks stands right now. can the supporters of gun safety get 50 votes in the senate on the background check itself? can they get 60 votes to clear a filibuster? can they get the one vote the speaker of the house scheduled to vote in the snous can they get 218 votes in the house to actually pass it and then get the signature of the president to make it law? so these are the numbers, 50, 60, 1, 218, and 1. five gates to pass through in order for us to have a stronger

background check to become part of the law. the former chief of staff to congresswoman gabby giffords now runs the group americans for responsible solutions and a political reporter for "the washington post." that you. it struck me this afternoon rush limbaugh refers to the people who come to capitol hill and a wonderfully moving around the hill with green shields. in other words, they're just sort of props. >> i don't know we can take seriously anything rush limbaugh says. >> you have to take it seriously he has a bunch of ditto heads out there who do. >> that's fair enough. the victims of newtown, it's impossible to call them shields. they are the faces of this tragedy and they are telling lawmakers to do something about it and to show the courage and do the right thing. >> do you think it's working? >> absolutely. >> tell me how. >> we've had a great week. last week the washington press was writing the obituary of the background check, fair and square. they were saying it's dead. and now this week we have one of

the most conservative republ republicans in the senate agreeing to a deal. i mean, the momentum is with us, so whether it's the work of the victims of gun violence, the tucson victims or newtown. >> how many do you need? >> we'd like a strong showing. >> can you get 50? >> 50? i think so. i do. i think we have a shot 0. we're appealing to their morals. if that doesn't work we'll appeal to their political -- >> so you have 53 democrats, you lose two of the 55. that means you need seven republicans, to be blunt about it, to clear a fill buster? >> well, yes. and we've cleared the filibuster. >> for the debate. >> exactly. we're looking for a lot more than that. we are. >> i'm just worried to getting to 60. >> xwref, yeah. >> you're so frisky about this. you're already talking about more than 60. >> the house is gold. >> i think there are l some pickups you can look at. mark kirk -- >> he's already on my list. >> susan collins, maybe even john mccain, harry reid release add video that looked at five

republicans who had already been on record to be open to background checks, so i think, you know, there is some optimism and i think she's right the pendulum swing began this week. >> i don't want to -- the more 0 excitement, the better. >> over the last 20 years the nra dominate this had debate and now i think we're at the beginning. >> you have to win the senate. you have to beat the next filibuster attempt. then you have to get boehner to have the nerve or the guts, whatever you want to call it, to bring it up in the house. then to the 218 to allow him to break the rule. you're going to have to get some republicans added to the democrats' total and some democrats from certain states will have a hard time with this. let's take a look at what rush limbaugh said. i find this offensive. let's watch. >> it was the president who asked for 0 this mother of a 6-year-old who died to do his speech senator richard blumenthal, democrat, connecticut, using sandy hook to raise money in his e-mails.

they're trying 0 to turn the newtown parents into a dozen cindy sheehans. in a way. and this is what the democrats do, folks. they always try to hide their agendas behind women and children and, most of all, victims. and so the newtown parents are human shields in a sense. the newtown parents are 0 out there to protect the democrats from any criticism and to shut it down. >> i like the way he does this, pia. he's assuming that men are putting you people up, as a woman. you don't look put up to me. >> certainly with these families. this is what they want to do. they talk about wanting to be in this conversation to carry on the legacies of their dead 6 and 7-year-olds who they'll never see again.

>> by the way, nobody put cindy sheehan up to anything. she lost her son to the war. >> and people came around to feeling the exact same thing about that war, and it looks like these families have a similar effect and they are clarifying, i think, voice and they are reminding us why we are here. >> on the sandy hook families in a headline, victims turn lobbyist. when a lobbyist for families of newtown shooting victims called the office of senator susan collins to set up a meeting, the first response from the office was a standard dc offer. they would get a meeting with her staff and perhaps a quick, simple hello from the senator herself. they were told the families' answer, not good enough. according to the lobbyists, the families have a rule now against staff only meetings. they won't do them. they insist on sitting down with the senators themselves. tell me about that. i know a lot of very highly paid lobbyists would like this deal. we want to see the senator himself. usually you see him sitting next to some kid trying to make their

point and they'll take a memo. >> it's important as a former house chief of staff. if a family member after deceased came in looking for a meeting, we would take that. i think it's disrespectful to put it at staff level. out of respect at least, even if you disagree on policy, show respect to the family and meet face-to-face. >> well. >> i think this is changing. initially for reasons that you can imagine the families won't really out there as much but this flood of activity that you see, they're on the air as well with ads, i think sponsored by mayors against guns. so i think they have been more effective than bloomberg's money because they -- >> i think it's a little too much professionalism with mike. mike has many interests and they're good interests -- >> and he's been fighting this battle for a long time. >> west virginia senator joe manchin fought back against the fear that more background checks would mean a national database of gun owners. here was his response.

>> it's absolute ly, totally false, and anybody who is saying that is basically scaring or lying to people. the law today, rick, is you cannot do a registry. if you go to a gun dealer today, he has to keep a record or she has to keep a record. if it's used for a registration, it's against the law. in our bill, wre make it a felony tan 15 years of imprisonment. if people will just go to manchin.govern and read for themselves. i would not be involved in this bill if it infringed on anyone's rights. >> the argument made by the second amendment people, not just hunters -- >> us. >> we don't want a national registry because then they say if you register, then they're going to collect. i'm not sure whatever has been collected in history has been registered but their argument is the united states has a record. it's portrayed in texas schoolbooks. that's where ted cruz got it,

someone told me. your thoughts -- you try to buy a gun and you buy a gun, that someone is going to write down a list and file that with the federal government. >> i don't know how someone would believe the federal government would be able to go around to all of licensed firearm dealers. no one is talking about a registration. >> coming up, the empire strikes back. the right wing sends out this warning to the gop. give up on gay marriage and we can give up on you. the rnc approved a resolution just today opposing gay marriage. plus, consider this number, 326. that's the number of provisions legislators around the country have introduced adding to the burden of someone deciding to have an abortion. concerns of giving up trying to get the courts to stop abortion. they're coming up with other ways to make it harder. and john stewart points out that rand paul has a point when he says republicans have been champions of voting rights for

african-americans as long as you forget about the last 50 years. finally, let me finish tonight with the war going on in the republican party between the traditional conservatives and the libertarians. and this is "hardball," the place for politics. with the spark miles card from capital one, bjorn earns unlimited rewards for his small business. take these bags to room 12 please. [ garth ] bjorn's small business earns double miles on every purchase every day. produce delivery. [ bjorn ] just put it on my spark card. [ garth ] why settle for less? ahh, oh! [ garth ] great businesses deserve unlimited rewards. here's your wake up call.

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welcome back to "hardball." the republican party a few weeks ago released what we are calling an autopsy report citing the need to be more tolerant. that was a word and inclusive another word. that's not what the cultural right wants to hear and they began fighting back hard. rick santorum said the gop's support of gay marriage would be suicidal. the family research council told supporters to stop donating until the party got its act together on this issue. today it seems the rnc listened. they passed a resolution

declaring the national republican committee confirms its support for marriage as the union of one man and one woman and the optimum environment in which to raise healthy children and to be further resolved weigh implore the u.s. supreme court to uphold the sanctity of marriage in the ruling on california's prop 8 and federal defense of marriage act. this civil war within the gop 0 obviously is raging right now but can a party vehemently against gay marriage win where a majority of people across the board support gay marriage. a republican national committeeman from texas and gregory angelo of the log cabin republicans. gentlemen, this is an amazing thing to watch right the now because you have these couple of strains in the republican party which are real, traditional and valid. you have the libertarian strain which goes back to barry goldwater, live and let live. at the end of his life pro-gay

rights, live and let live. and then the religious cultural right which has given the party all its votes in the last 20 or 30 years starting with the prayer issue back in '61. let me ask you, dr. robin armstrong, let me ask you. what is the strongest strain in your history is it libertarianism orthodox cultural values? >> i think it's a combination of both. >> that combination ain't working right now. >> well, i'll tell what you we're talking about in our party is having a big tent. we allow everyone in. actually we're the tolerant party. we allow people who are pro-choice in our party. we allow people to come in who are in favor of homosexual marriage. mr. angelo is a log cabin republ republican. he is a republican, a strong republican. all we're saying is, listen, we affirm marriage is between one man and one woman. we believe that. we're not going to compromise that value. that is what we believe.

>> never? you're never going to compromise? let me get this straight, do doctor. let me get this straight. you want to get your phrasing here. are you ever, ever going to be open to the door of changing that position, or is it permanent with your party? >> i am saying right now that we -- >> right now -- >> we are not going to compromise. >> right now? >> we're not going to compromise that vool you and we do not plan on compromising that ever in the future. >> you think it's a permanent value of your party. >> but what i am say iing is, wt i'm saying is if we agree with someone on 80% of issues and we disagree on 20% of issues, they are still welcome in our party. we will still accept them in our par party. we're not going to throw away the 20%. we don't have to have 100% puri purity. our party and our platform upholds the fact that marriage is between one man and one woman and that's where we stand. >> would you be for a party that was 80% for your economic views buts was against civil rights for african-americans? that 20%, would that be enough

to stop you from joining the party? >> well, absolutely not, but i do not -- >> that wouldn't stop you from joining the republican party? you would join a party that didn't believe in civil is rights for african-americans? because you agree with them on economic issues? >> what you're trying to do is you're trying to equate the issue -- >> i'm only asking the question because i'm going to ask the same question to gregory. >> i am telling you that republicans led the civil rights movement. abraham lincoln was a republi n republican. so i don't accept the premise of your question. i believe wholeheartedly that most americans today agree that marriage is between one man and one woman and republican party will stand on that platform. >> well, let me just go through the latest polling. 53%, sir, do believe and support same sex marriage. 42% oppose. in your party, perhaps in your world politically, 66% of republicans do oppose. but you just threw out a line that's not true. most americans support same sex marriage now, sir.

>> well, you know, i'll tell you, i believe it depends on how the wording is phrased, how the poll is phrased. >> the people said, yes, they favor it. let me go to gregory here. how do you like being in a political party who figures you're a 20% problem? that your issues that matter to you don't count in the big 180%, as if that's always the same 80%, but if you're gay and you care about equality of marriage it would seem to me that's a lot bigger than 20%. >> sure. well, this was pointed out perhaps no clearer than the letter that came out addressed to the rnc, a lot of social conservatives signed it and pointed to log cabin republicans saying proof that the republican party is open and is acknowledging the fact log cabin republicans exist here. we're not a part of the party because of its stance and so-called traditional marriage. we're part of the party in spite of that. >> i know.

does it bother you when you hear a gentleman like mr. armstrong, a party chair or committeeman say they think this is essential to the party's belief, that this is something that isn't going to change in the foreseeable future? it's essential is. how can it be -- how can opposition to same sex marriage be essential to being a republican? >> you are asking the wrong guy. i think that you can be republican and you can be supportive of marriage equality for gay and lesbian individuals. the fact the republican party's pla platform in 2012 stated that marriage is between one man and one woman did not stop senator portman from evolving on this issue. did not stop -- >> is it going to let the party evolve, though? will the party evolve? >> regardless of what the platform says. you have republicans around the country who are coming out in support of the freedom to marry. it doesn't matter what a piece of paper says, what a platform says. more and more republicans are understanding the importance of becoming more welcoming. >> you believe that -- let me go back to dr. armstrong. do you believe that the party is going in the same direction it

seems to me a lot of people are upset about even the possibility that your party might go toward support for same sex and ba basically put up that resolution today saying the party as a whole has said it's not going to happen. but is there not the a libertarian strain led by rand paul and people like that who definitely are going in another direction? they're going in a different direction. >> and we welcome them in our party. and they are welcome in our party. they are a part of the republican party. i think this is an illustration of how intolerant democrats are. how intolerant liberals are and how tolerant the republican party is of other viewpoints. you don't have to agree with me on 100% of viewpoints. >> let me ask you about the position of the party, this idea of percentages, i think, is helpful. it misses the main point. i think there are a lot of republicans in the country that rick santorum were the nominee and he won the iowa kcaucuses. he can win them again next time. they would say, sorry, this is

where i get off the bus. i don't think your party is able to be, what will be, will be, if you have a nominee like this guy. let's go back and look at contraception, the whole weird thing he did about bestiality and homosexuality, the way he treats people who are gay. would you, gregory? would you support rick san knee? >> it would be extremely difficult to support rick santorum. >> can you imagine saying that on national television? are you saying you could support him? >> everyone can evolve. >> you really believe in evolution is this. >> of course. we leave no stone unturned. we meet with everybody and some of the most social conservatives are the people most interested in finding out more about the work we're doing in this organization. >> thank you, dr. armstrong. marco rubio will be a guest this sunday on "meet the press" pushing next week's immigration

reform. he has a good bill. he will be joined by kirsten gillibrand. defenders of black americans aspirations and couldn't convince john stewart either. the sideshow with john stewart is up next. this is "hardball," the place for politics. using telemedical and mobile technologies, verizon innovators are connecting trauma surgeons to patients in the field. helping them get the attention they need, before they even reach the hospital. because the world's biggest challenges deserve even bigger solutions. powerful answers. verizon. aaah! aaaaah! theres a guy on the window! do something, dad! aaaah! aaaah!

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back to "hardball." now the sideshow. earlier this week i told you about rand paul's effort to reach out to minority voters by giving a speech at the historically black howard university in washington. not everyone would call his speech a smashing success. here is john stewart with a recap. >> we see horrible jim crowe and horrible racism that happened in the '30s, '40s, '50s.

it was all democrats. it wasn't republicans. >> right. but for the most part, those bigoted democrats, in the '30s, '40s, and '50s became republicans post the modern civil rights era because of it. you can't just yada-yada-yada. of the problem with this theory all that stands between the republicans and a plurality of the black vote is a history lesson is, well, enjoy. >> if i would have said who do you think the founders of the naacp are, do you think they were republicans or democrats? would everyone in here know they were all republicans? >> yes. >> all right. you know more than i know. i don't mean that to be insulting. i don't know what you know. i'm trying to find out what the connection is. >> calm down, everybody. just calm down. red team, start the car. remove the vanilla bean from the hot chocolate. red team. >> anyway, the senator also got stuck at one point trying to convince the audience he did, in fact, support the civil rights

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