good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. we're awaiting right now maybe five minutes an important fbi briefing on the investigation into monday's bombings at the boston marathon. and we'll bring you that when it happens. investigators are expected to release images of two persons of interest in the case. two men seen carrying heavy bags near the sites of the bombings. meanwhile, today, the president and first lady attended an interfaith service. his message to boston was powerful and defiant. >> they sought to intimidate us, to terrorize us, to shake us from those values that deval described. the values that make us who we are as americans. well, it should be pretty clear by now that they picked the wrong city to do it. [ applause ] not here in boston.

>> the president also met with victims of the bomb blast and their families as well as volunteers and the hospital staff at massachusetts general hospital. we're going to have more on the emotional day in boston tonight. but first, we're following developments in the investigation, itself. authorities now tell nbc news they are focused on finding two men who were seen on camera near the site of the bombings. one was reportedly seen setting down a black bag. and then dashing away just before the bombs went off. i'm joined by former secretary of homeland security, tom ridge. former assistant agent in charge of the fbi nypd joint terrorism task force, don borelli, and james cavanaugh, retired special agent in charge for theatf, now an analyst for msnbc. we don't know will it was domestic, foreign, or perhaps an exchange student here.

we don't know what mix it might be. >> right. one of the challenges, need to know, journalists need to know, america wants to know, bostonians want to know. everybody is doing their very, very best. as the other individuals sharing this podium, this conversation with you today will tell you have to put together the pieces. it's incremental. it's labor intensive. we'll get there sooner or later. it's a very tough and challenging investigation. >> don borelli, why did it take hours and days decide to go public with pictures they've apparently had now for at least a day or two? >> well, chris, you always want to try to keep the element of surprise on your side. as soon as you release photos and you say, this is the person we're looking for, then obviously you've tipped your hand and that person knows. it gives them the opportunity to destroy evidence. it gives co-conspirators the opportunity to get away. so the police, law enforcement, always like to have the element of surprise. so at the point that they do release the photos, that's the point when authorities are asking the general public to please help out with this

investigation. >> let me offer you as civilian counterpoint, if those people are the people who did this crime, who laid the bombs there, did everything deliberately obviously, they're facing capital one charges. why wouldn't they have fled immediately? they could be at the seattle border, they could be in mexico, canada, out of the country, anywhere in the world after four days now. >> certainly they could. but we don't know that. we don't know who else was involved. and i think, you know, possibly that's a question better asked when they have the press conference to the fbi. i'm not privy to the inside information. so i'd rather not speculate on why or why not they didn't release the photos. >> okay. let me go back to governor. it seems to me homeland security, and i'm wondering what this does, if it's foreign or domestic. how's it change the equation? >> probably not much. the only change in the equation might be how the president and the country respond to it. the motive right now, it remains to be seen. the actors remain to be seen.

whether or not they're domestic, it's a grievance against the government, they'll be treated as a citizen and you'll get into the debate whether or not they're an enemy combatant. >> in terms of the -- what did you make, governor, you're a political guy, who did you make of the president's statement today? that the people who did this were trying to restrict our free open society? how do we know that? unless he knows something about the profile of these people? if it's a personal with a mental problem, they don't care about free and open societies, they're just monovalent. you know, if it's a domestic person, they may have a political attitude. if it's a foreign person, they may well be against a free and open society. >> well, you know, i think the president -- i'm going to give a little flexible, a little -- >> what do you think it meant? >> well, i'm not sure. i think you'd have to ask the president that. i think we've said all along, those we tie into the jihadist movement, those who are living in the medieval time who don't care for the modern world, that could very well be true. if it turnsous in is a domestic

terrorist that has a major grievance against the government, it may not belanguad the president is good at language, may not have used the right words. >> do you think, mr. borelli, the president was briefed beyond what we know? is it possible he did know there was a foreign involvement here and explain why he says the people who did this were trying to restrict a free and open society? >> absolutely, chris. the obligation of the fbi and joint terrorism task force and everybody involved is to keep the president informed. so certainly he -- i suspect he was briefed. >> let me ask you about the differences in dealing with what we're going to know so soon. let me ask you what you were beginning to explain there and i probably got in your way there, mr. borelli. that is this question of holding back information. weighing the advantages of public support versus the importance of keeping it secret. what are the advantages of public soeupport here? we may well be facing that in a matter of minutes. >> the obvious advantage of

public support, you have a force multiplier now of millions of people that will see the photograph of the individuals or individual being sought. and there's a high likelihood that someone will recognize that person and call in and tip off the fbi. you take that information and put it with what they already know and what they're gathering through physical evidence and electronic surveillance, whatever they're using in addition to photography. and that helps put the case together. >> so it's an old-fashioned wanted poster at that point. >> essentially it becomes like a wanted poster. america's most wanted type of situation. >> right. let me go to james cavanaugh, he was with atf. he's now with us as an nbc analyst. mr. cavanaugh, it's great having you back. i hate having you back, once again, because something bad happened. here we go again. again, the question, we in the media always want something when we can get it. that's the job we have. the job on the inside is the

jjo job -- they've been making this choice since tuesday. >> this is what commanders wrestle with all the time in these cases. i've done it many times. from eric rudolph to the sniper, to church fires, to major bombing incidents. you always wrestle with these kids. they' . they've got the bomb scenes 90% done. they know what the components are and are probably going to release this afternoon photographs of people that aey' extremely interested in. they're doing that because they don't have a way to otherwise identify those people. so if they do, before the sun sets on boston harbor, they will have the names of the people in those photographs. now, if that is the bombers, we'll see. but they will have those names fast because relatives, neighbors, friends, co-workers, associates, will call it in. >> governor, the question now we have on the record now, thanks to pete williams, we have the fact two men seen carrying heavy bags near the site of the

bombings. if this comes into vision now, pictures we've been looking at on the internet of people actually putting bombs down and leaving, they're more to the civilian eye than just people of interest. they look like they're the guys. that's the way people are going to look at it. the civil liberties aspect to this, if you put a picture out of a person saying, pretty much we think these people are involved, somehow, perpetrators, and somebody shoots them or chases them down, something, an accident happened, for example, the government is taking responsibility for this once they put the pictures out. >> i think they are. they have to. at the end of the day, there comes a point in time where obviously they could not identify these individuals with all the other potential pieces of information they had. so do they eat their lunch at a particular place? rent an apartment? do they socialize with a particular group? frankly it says to me they did everything they could to identify them. they couldn't. now we -- >> probably they arrived from somewhere else for the occasion and left. >> that's a possibility. there have been some terrorists

who hung around the neighborhood, overseas and elsewhere and there is that possibility that somebody in the community can recognize and identify them and give them a specific name. of course, the other problem is, 72 hours has elapsed. they may have gone -- >> mr. borelli, once you have a visual identification, not visual identification, but visual images of two people or a person, can you match them up electronically through digital analysis with known faces? again, going back to classic old-fashioned techniques. mugshots. do you have a database at the fbi? you can run these through and see which match? >> chris, there's a lot of technological advances from the old days of, you know, the mugshot photo book. certainly there's facial recognition software. all of those techniques, you know, advanced techniques will be used in this case. and i agree with the other comments made that it's not going to take long for somebody to recognize these people. >> yeah, there's an interesting

database, chris, ever since 2003, we've been taking photographs and digital fingerprints of people coming into this country under u.s. visit. i think there are over 80 million digital photographs there. i just don't know. maybe one of your guests will tell whether or not the fbi -- >> how many? >> 80 million. everybody who's come across at an airport internationally, we have fingerprints and a digital photograph. >> everyone who has gone internationally -- >> no, everybody who's come into the united states. >> as a visitor. >> as a visitor. under u.s. visit. we got their digital photograph and we have their -- a couple fingerpri fingerprints. >> wouldn't they match that up if they have these visual images? >> i don't know. we'll find out. >> this is fascinating stuff. i guess the question is, do you have -- let me go back to mr. borelli again, the fbi experience there. when this kind of thing goes on when we have the modern example on tv now, which will reach millions of people overnight, and computers by dawn, half the country will have seen this, i suspect, or more. do you get a lot of false positives of people saying,

yeah, maybe they'll call, they don't like a guy, he looks like the guy i don't like, call his name and get him some trouble. do you get mischief about that or people who are overenthused? >> you get both of the above. people who want to help and are earnest in their call-in, trying to do their best. you get pranksters. everything. this has gone into the calculous of when to release the photos and not, because it can be a distraction chasing down false leads. >> mr. cavanaugh, your thoughts about this. again, the whole question of what are we going to get if we show shethese images tonight, t government does, the public will help, i don't know who they are, but i saw them at the drugstore the other day. that guy came in to buy a coke. i saw this guy somewhere. how long do you suspect this will take to succeed? >> chris, we did it in the d.c. sniper. we ordered the warrant. i said if we don't catch him,

our police, until 8:00 in the morning, then chief and fbi and atf will go out and announce it. we'll give in-house agents 12, 15 hours to find them. if they don't, we're going to release it. so it will probably leak to the media. that was 4:00 p.m., the sniper command post. by 9:00 p.m., the tag was on a media that a witness spotted him at the rest stop. i think they're going to get quick calls. there will be false positives. that's normal in a big case. everything that's happening here is normal in a big case. all the agencies are doing the right thing, from the commissioner of police, ed davis, who's an icon in the police chief world, to every agency. this is the right thing to do. they've made a calllation and now they're going to take the logical steps. the key here, though, is 72 hours, we had the bombing. one of the main things happened yesterday and that was the media kerfuffle that there was an arrest made and people were identified. >> i understand. >> the bomber knows that. the bomber knows that. and so yesterday the bomber knew

the investigators had his picture. so there's some behavior yesterday from the bombers. we don't know what that is. they're not pegging off this today. they reacted and acted yesterday. so we're a little bit behind the bomber now. >> let me talk about above and beyond in the game of just the evolution of technology. i read on the front page of the "washington post" today, it was the left side bar and it said basically we will all have at the end of this investigation, fairly soon, every second of the time of the marathon. four or five hours. every second of that will be covered by cell phone or some sort of surveillance camerawork, video. every quarter inch or half inch will be covered as well. that they will be able to put together a kaleidoscopic puzzle, time and space for that location and period of time. it blows your mind. i mean, these people that did this, they didn't know what they

were up against. they weren't thinking about the potential of the good guys to find out what happened. your thoughts first, jim? >> well, you're exactly right. it's like behind you in these big cases, there's a silent worrying fan that starts and that state department agents across the globe, cia stations, homeland security, where governor ridge was in charge of, they all start worrying around and they're all supporting you with their databases and their information. in the command post, we have computerized lead tracking. atf and fbi developed those systems in the early '90s and we put them to work with great force. i mean, we track every lead. computerized lead tracking so we can capture that information and control the leads. and this digital age that's come upon us, chris, when i started as a policeman, we had rotary phones. i mean, you're talking about wanted posters. we had to go hand them out. >> i know. >> so now -- this digital phone technology, this surveillance

cameras. remember the london train bombings? the cct cameras in greater london. the metropolitan police were able to capture the suicide bombers on the video. you're going to see digital america, digital world in action overnight. it's going to be amazing. we're going to have developments in the next few days here. i hope they're positive. >> it's unbelievable. >> it's unbelievable. >> it's also good on the good guys side. mr. borelli, the same question to you about this potential. i know as recently as the 1980s, we syndicated columnists were using western union. you tell that to a kid today, they think you were riding around on a horse. the fact is western union was still the way you filed a column in the '80s. let me ask you about this potential to cover every second and every inch of the crime scene. >> yeah, absolutely. i mean, i live in new york city. i don't think i could walk three blocks without being followed by a different camera every ten feet. ten you take that. if i'm on my cell phone, you've

got all the cell phone traffic going up to the various towers it's pinging on. you get layers. visual, the cell phone technology. so you take and now you add to that with the marathon. all of the people that are out taking pictures with their iphones and the media cameras. i mean, i agree with the assessment there's not going to be much uncovered. then the other thing, you know, for example, license plate readers. if they're able to find out, you know, where this person went and they got in a car, you know, now you've got the license plate. i mean, the technology is amazing. it can be very helpful. >> don't speed on connecticut avenue in washington. we got our little system there. if you go over the speed limit, you're on camera. anyway, it seems to me the buckaroos out there who say i don't want a national i.d. card, it's going to invade my privacy, governor, are crazy. the government is so potentially beyond them in recognizing their movements, their identity. i remember when mohammed atta was killed, a killer of 9/11, if

you will. we were looking at him going to an atm, a cvs store, right? we had his day figured out. it took a while. i guess now. mr. borelli, today mohammed atta i would assume would be under greater surveillance. you'd have his movements much more quickly. how fast this is moving. >> exactly. technology has just really enhanced law enforcement, but the other thing to keep in mind, chris, you know, technology, the bad guys have access to technology, too. so there's -- >> what do they got? >> well, i mean, they're sending encrypted messages and things like that. some of these are so complicated that the government has a hard time, you know, cracking the code. so, you know, it can -- technology can work against us as well. >> yeah. there's some discussion. i don't know if it's true. put it there, governor, and everybody, that one of these guys was walking around talking on his cell phone while carrying his bags around.

so i think they might be a bit behind the curb here, luxury. that's more guidance to where they were. and, anyway, i do think we're going to have a heck of a story. it's worth watching, sticking around for a few moments. although they're delaying this to get this right, this is probably the most important fbi briefing in history since the lindbergh case. they're coming out -- here we have mike barnicle is here. mike, where are you, mike? you're at boston. give us a bit, if you can, while we have a moment with you -- >> one minute warning. >> oh, one-minute warning. michael, where are you right now? >> i'm in boston, chris. >> you're watching this as well as i'm watching it. any sense of what you're hearing up there? >> no. i am eagerly awaiting as you are, as many americans are to see what information we're going to find out from the fbi right about now. >> okay. we just got the word through my ear there is ricin in those letters in washington, to the various public officials. so we know there's a violent intent there which follows what you and i were talking about the

other day, this pattern of villainy. if you will. a bombing. 9/11. you had the anthrax in those cases. now you have the ricin. >> deja vu. i remember vividly as you do. you had the 9/11 bombings. you had the anthrax. >> tom daschle and to tom brokaw. >> brokaw, daschle, for the first couple months -- >> we never found theory or purpose to the whole thing. >> we did not. we never found any connection for the time being and for the past ten years no one has been able to discover any connection between the 9/11 horror and the an anthrax. i think they're two separate incidents. >> mr. cavanaugh, i just think, jim, this is the negative part of our world where people who want to hook in and get into this story, here's your chance. there's a national turmoil. join it in some way. your thoughts. >> that's exactly right. you know, chris, when you were talking an the digital world and the video, a lot of this video is in the hands of citizens. that's a sweeping change in our

lifetimes. it's not in the hands of the government. it's in the hands of every marath marathon runner. they submit it. that's really powerful to have citizens holding their own pictures and putting them in there digitally. i think it's going to be the wave of the future. >> you know, if you're on tv or a political figure, you go in public, everybody has a camera because everybody has a cell phone. >> exactly. >> everybody has a -- they want a picture. here we go. this is the big story. here's this special agent in charge. >> good afternoon. my name is richard delauriers, special agent in charge of the fbi's boston division. since monday's bombings, the fbi and law enforcement partners have been working around the clock and are fully committed to investigating the matter, this matter to bring those responsible to justice. our collective law enforcement team has pursued thousands of leads and tips.

as i said two days ago, we are working methodically and with a sense of urgency to identify those responsible for the bombings. within the last day or so through that careful process, we initially developed a single person of interest. not knowing if the individual was acting alone or in concert with others, we obviously worked with extreme purpose to make that determination. the entire force of the federal government, the fbi in boston, around the world, as well as our partners in the boston police, atf, massachusetts state police, and more than 30 agencies of the boston joint terrorism task force have set about to ensure all responsible for the bombings will be brought to justice. more importantly, it was done to ensure the future safety of the city of boston, the commonwealth of massachusetts, and the country. indeed, through that process, the fbi developed a second suspect. today we are enlisting the public's help to identify the two suspects. after a very detailed analysis,

photo, video and other evidence, we are releasing photos of these two suspects. they are identified as suspect 1 and suspect 2. they appear to be associated. suspect 1 is wearing a dark hat. suspect 2 is wearing a white hat. suspect 2 set down a backpack at the site of the second explosion just in front of the forum restaurant. we strongly encourage those who were at the forum restaurant who have not contacted us yet to do so. as you can see from one of the images, suspects 1 and 2 appear to be walkinging ing ting toge the marathon crowd on boylston street in the direction of the finish line. that image was captured as they walked on boylston in the vicinity of the intersection with gloucester street. as you can see, the quality of the photos is quite good, but we will continue to work on developing additional images to improve their identification value.

further, on fbi.gov, we have photos of the suspects. the photos and videos are posted for the public and media to use, review and publicize. for clarity, these images should be the only one, i emphasize, the only ones that the public should view to assist us. other photos should not be deemed credible and unnecessarily divert the public's attention in the wrong direction and create undue work for vital law enforcement resources. for more than 100 years, the fbi has relied upon the public to be its eyes and ears. with the media's help, in an instant, these images will be delivered directly into the hands of millions around the world. we know the public will play a critical role in identifying and locating these individuals. somebody out there knows these individuals as friends, neighbors, co-workers, or family members of the suspects. though it may be difficult, the nation is counting on those with information to come forward and provide it to us.

no bit of information, no matter how small or seemingly unconsequential, is too small for us to see. each piece moves us forward toward justice. it is extremely important to contact us with any information regarding the identities of suspect 1, suspect 2, and their location. we consider them to be armed and extremely dangerous. no one should approach them. no one should attempt to apprehend them except law enforcement. let me reiterate that caution. do not take any action on your own. if you see these men, contact law enforcement. if you know anything about the bombings or the men pictured here, please call the telephone listed on the photo arrays. that's 1-800-call-fbi. again, that's 1-800-225-5324. all calls will be kept confidential. we have also established a website for tips that directly relates to the bombing.

please contact us at bostonmarathontips.fbi.gov. again, that website is bostonmarathontips.fbi.gov. the photos can be viewed on our website, fbi.gov. it is important to emphasize the images from monday are indelible and the horror of that day will remain with us forever. this further underscores our obligation to investigate this crime judicious lly in order to bring those responsible for justice. the victims and the survivors deserve nothing more. nothing less, excuse me. as to monday's victims, the fbi's committed to ensuring victims receive the rights they are entitled to and the assistance they need to cope with the crime. treating victims with respect and providing them with assistance benefits and help and assistance will better our cases. our resources include an office of victim assistance at fbi headquarters and victim

specialists nationwide. these highly trained professionals can assist victims and coordinate with other agencies to provide victims with support, information and resources necessary to effectively meet their needs. our victim specialist team continues to work around the clock to bring assistance to the victims of this heinous act. identifying and locating those responsible is now our highest priority. no other details of the investigation will be released at this time because this is our focus now. it continues to be an ongoing active investigation. review these photographs and contact us at 1-800-call-fbi or www.bostonmarathontips.fbi.gov immediately. thank you very much. karen? >> i was wondering if there should be arrest, what intentional charges? >> i wouldn't want to comment on that, karen, right now. i would allow u.s. attorney ortiz to comment on that aspect.

next question, please? yes, yes? >> are both suspects seen planting these devices at the finish line of the boston marathon? >> no. the only one who was observed planting what we believe to be the device is suspect number 2 with the white cap. >> what time did they put those devices down? >> i don't have the precise time in front of me. it was shortly before the bomb blast went off. within minutes. >> mr. deslauriers, are these the sole people of interest to the fbi at this point in the investigation? >> at this time, these are people of interest to the fbi. yes? yes? >> do you have any information on what they did after the explosions? any indication they were around watching? do you have any video of them walking away? >> suspect number 2 with the white cap on proceeded west on boylston street and that's all

we know right now. >> sir, can you address the -- today in newspapers all over the country, including "new york post" that identified two men as potential suspects. i'm just wondering what it does to your investigation when things like this get out and these guys are -- >> i think i addressed that -- thank you -- i think i addressed that question in my statement, the only photos that should be officially relied upon in this investigation are those you see before you today. >> they're armed and dangerous. do you stand by your earlier statement there is no additional danger to the public? >> i do stand by that statement right now. there is no additional danger we are aware of right now. >> thank you. >> again, the photos are available at fbi.gov. >> there we go. there we go. don bo rrkborelli. you're a former fbi agent. we know two suspects.

one with the white hat was seen planting a backpack near the bombing. we know that person proceeded west on boylston street. we know there was another suspect there, they're the only people of interest in the case. what else do we know? they look like two young men in their 20s, i'd say, based upon their stride. what else do we know? >> well, you're seeing these pictures as well as i am. i mean, i'm sure that there's other information that the fbi has that's not released to the press conference. but obviously the big key that they don't have is a name, a date of birth, a social security number, a positive i.d. you know, what we call it in law enforcement. you want a positive i.d. so that's the information they're looking to obtain with the help of the public. >> why didn't they blow up the pictures of their faces and give us a closer look at them? they're both wearing baseball caps which helped to disguise themselves. why did they not go in tight, give us a blowup picture for use in identifying them? if you know them, you know things about them. the way they walk, who they are. various matters of their loat

clothing, et cetera. if you don't know them, you'd be better off looking at a close-up of their face. why do you do that, do you think? >> can't really tell for sure although the special agent in charge rick deslauriers mentioned they're working to improve the quality of the photographs. perhaps later on today they'll have improved imagery available online on fbi.gov. so i know that, you know, obviously they -- now that they've essentially said, look, we want your help, and they've opened this up to the public, i expect that they're going to give themselves the best opportunities to succeed and that is to give the best photographs available. >> mr. cavanaugh, this is a bombing case. now we have two people, they call them suspects, so we can. two suspects in a bombing case. one of them dropping the package, the backpack which they believe contained one of the bombs. and we have pictures of them doing it. certainly the one with the white hat, the second suspect, we'll call him. boy, this is a lot of information. >> chris, you're exactly right. you know i worked bombing cases for 40 years, and special agent

in charge gave a lot of information here. look what he told us. these two guys were seen prior to this video communicating with each other. so, you know, they suspect they knew each other. they were walking side by side, or they were talking. they then come out in this feed. the second guy with his backpack is carrying a device that looks just about exactly like the device that was placed next to the trash can that was shown on nightly news last night. >> in front of the forum restaurant. right there. >> it kind of looks just like it. it's covered by some kind of white towel or white garbage bag. he likely, the second guy, just dropped that thing over the fence that you see right there on the loop. now, what the agent in charge also said is important. he said we're not showing a video of, or we don't have a video -- i'm not sure which one he said -- of the first guy placing the bomb. that may be true. but as a bomb investigator, when i look at that video, i can tell you beyond any shadow of a

doubt, i can take that backpack from a post-blast investigation that's been done in the last three days and can tell you that backpack was put at the scene of the bomb. it's very unique looking. it has white markings on it. you can see the marks on it. the size of it. atf agents, fbi agents, boston bomb squad put that together. state police. no problem. that backpack is put together enough of the remnants of it to identify it that it looks just like the backpack that that number one man is walking on. whether or not they have a video of it, that's why they're sure of it. that's why they're sure these are the guys they want to talk to. >> he's carrying it rather lightly. not conspicuous. we talked about the wakt of the bomb, what it would have to be with the nails and shrapnel and bbs and powder, itself, and the size of the pressure cooker. the 6 liter pressure cooker. yet they're carrying it along rather lightly. i wouldn't think people would recognize they're up to any trouble. >> if these are the bombers, i mean, you're looking at bombers at work. if these are the bombers.

you're looking at them at work. it's fascinating really. i think it's a great break in the case. it's going to be great for -- >> okay. i'm looking now, gentlemen, mr. borelli, i don't know if you have access, but i'm looking at prints in color. i got to tell you, let me -- governor, you're here with me. this guy in the white cap, this is is one accused or seen dropping the package there. the backpack where you said right in front of the forum restaurant there between the storm fence and the curb, itself. he now, in this other close-up, is quite identifiable. look at him there. >> that's a good profile. >> without giving any description, let the police do that. i think if you knew this fellow, you would know him and you would spot him. if you're watching television right now, you will know this guy when you see these pictures online. they're all online in color. by the way, he's wearing the baseball hat backwards the way young people tend to do. he's carrying -- he does seem to be carrying it with some weight on it right now. sounds like he's toting it. black pants, black jacket.

white cap. a hood. which is not over his head. in fact, you know, we were hearing all this stuff, governor, and gentlemen. we were hearing this kind of description. baseball cap with hood two days ago. whatever was getting out, the smoke led to the fire here. we know that some people had some of this evidence consistent with the fbi evidence they're presenting to us right now. let me, mr. borelli, again, don, tell me why do you think we were getting pieces of this picture earlier? and it was pushed back on by the bureau? at that point? there's some acute accusations of bad reporting. apparently so, but we're also getting evidence now that was consistent, at least, in i incompleteness with what's coming out now. >> i'm not entirely sure about that, chris. i, like you, heard media reports that they were looking for somebody with a baseball hat turned backward and carrying the backpack and so forth. >> with the hood as well. >> with the hood. >> the sweatshirt hood. >> with what we've seen today.

in essence, at that point, you know, they did tip their hand to a certain extent, but, you know, was that done -- i can't say if that was done intentionally or what, because i'm not privy to the information that the fbi gave to the media and when they gave it. obviously yesterday turned into a bit of a circus with, you know, the announcement of arrests and then retractment attend so forth. it's hard for me to answer that question not knowing what was released officially by the fbi and when. >> also, gentlemen, we're seeing in this picture i'm looking at, i can hold it up, i don't know if you've seen it. you can actually see the young man with the white baseball cap and the hood behind him, the sweatshirt hood, on the phone. so you see a lot here. and now they know he was on the phone right there. he's got his hand up to his ear. so he's talking to somebody while he's doing this. jim cavanaugh, your thoughts about this. i mean, i don't want to judge. i'm not an expert. i have a lot of things going

through my head about what might be going on here. but is there any way to know whether this is serious business? organized, al qaeda type? international? domestic? or renegade group? what are we calling them, rogue groups? i don't know how to read the language here what we're looking at. >> yeah. we don't know from that and don't know if that's a real phone call or fake phone call, like he feels somebody is watching him when he's about to place the device so he kind of acts like he's making a call then, you know, i'm putting down my bag while i make the call. it could be that as well. but if it is a call, i guarantee you law enforcement will sweep that cell tower to the best of their ability and do whatever they got to do. imagine, chris, i mean, put yourself -- if i was commanding this case, here's where my mind wants to be. these guys are watching it. these guys are watching it. unless they're in the woods hiding, or they've already -- if they're international citizens, they've already left the country, they're watching this on all the media. they're watching themselves be identified.

so this is what you got to think about they're doing and in their mind, how are they going to react to this? so it's very important what transpires in the hours overnight. >> do they get any advantage -- i want to get back to mr. borelli. do they get any advantage with turning themselves in at this point? at this point when people bad or good, they're bad obviously if they're the people that did this, they know they did it. they know they're being pursued. they know it's a hot pursuit. they know all the technology is now working against them. is there any advantage of them turning themselves in at this point? maybe i'm just an idealist. i think it would be better for everybody if they did. >> i agree with you, chris. i mean, i think that that would be the ideal situation. but highly unlikely at this point. you know, that's probably a question that would be addressed by the u.s. attorney's office. i think -- i think certainly it's safe to say that would be taken as a consideration if they turned themselves in. but these guys are looking at some very serious charges. they used a weapon of mass destruction that killed american

citizens. >> i assume they're facing life, at least, up in massachusetts. at least life. i don't think they have capital punishment up there. life imprisonment. it's a federal crime. >> it's a federal. >> how does this fit under the federal statutes? >> this could be considered wmd under title 18. if my memory serves me right, 23, 32-a, the use of a destructive device. whether these guys are affiliated with any kind of a foreign power or domestic group or just two guys that acted alone, they still are looking apt charges under the federal terrorism statute. and i believe, you know, could carry the death penalty, potentially. i'd have to go back to the code books. >> we have the governor here. >> it sure does. >> these guys are facing capital punishment. >> yes. >> federal crime of terrorism, chris, passed after the murrah bombing in the '90s. somebody uses a bomb to coerce a civilian population clearly

would fit. if they're international citizens, terrorism transcending national boundaries. plenty of statutes. there's a whole bunch of atf bombing statutes. you can't even make a bomb in the u.s. without it being a federal crime. so just making a bomb, having a bomb, components to the bomb. there's plenty of laws to cover it. so the trick here is really catching them. it's all that stuff the u.s. attorneys can handle for us. >> you don't suspect they would turn themselves in then at this point? >> i'm like you. i always think if you really believe in whatever crazy cause you have, if you really believe in it, why not surrender and try to get your platform like, you know, khalid shaikh mohammed? all this talking in the court, wro you know? go get your platform. they won't do it. i think they'll go into fight or flight. they'll either barricade or they'll flee. we'll see that transpire. >> let me go to mike barnicle with your thoughts about this. mike, boy is this moving fast. this is a fast-moving investigation.

>> i tell you, chris, what i find fascinating. in this interconnected digital age that we live in, are they so unaware that they didn't realize that they would be filmed multiple times? and as to the site of the drop, the two devices, the drop, was it the first time they had been at that site? had they not been there before to check it out to see where they would drop things, where they would put the two devices? was this their first time? because the multiple shots we have of them, i assume the fbi probably has more and of course they have sim skimmed materialsm the lord & taylor department store across the street. in terms of profiling the two individuals, this is a fascinating trail they are leading us on here. >> what do you mean by the fact we've got all these various shots of them? that they're walking around? >> yeah. are they that -- were they that unaware of the sophistication of society around them?

multiple cameras in every city. boston being no different. >> i'm with them in that sense because i had no idea that lord & taylor was this aggressive in its photography. i mean, i thought they were watching behind the counter when the clerk wasn't there, the floor walker. they're taking pictures across the street. who knows how many blocks lord & taylor covers. it is -- they have a high-level shot. by the way, people tell me technically this is a very good shot they got. it's from off the roof of lord & taylor from across the street. that's a long way to follow a shoplifter if that's what the purpose of the surveillance was. you're right, though. the cops were ahead of the bad guys there. >> was this their first time at the site? that's sort of an interesting question. >> i was wondering that -- go ahead. go ahead. >> chris, mike makes a good point. i think, you know, he's kind b when he says unaware or dumb of the digital technology. that's one possibility. they're too clever by half. the second one, though, they're far from far away. that could be domestically. they're from far away.

they live in the mountains somewhere in the west. or they're international citizens who just came in for this purpose. and the only thing they came in for, they had money and knowledge. that's all they need to perpetrate these two bombs. money and knowledge. because they could acquire the materials easily. then they feel safe because they're going back to western europe, for example, if they're radicals or maybe they're from the far west of the u.s. they may have security because they're not from new england. that's a possibility. or so unaware, as mike says, so just, you know, toeltally unawa they're going to be filmed by everybody that they did it. nobody in the whole world can get away. nobody can get away. you can't get away hiding in the in the mountains of tora bora, pakistan. eric rudolph in the mountains in appalachia. we're going to find you. >> the one thing about the justice of the lord when he created us all, we're all good at one or two things. i assume these are laboratory geeks that probably put together the bomb and that's their strength. their strength isn't

international geographgeography. they're probably people who figured out how to bomb. that's one thing they know how to do. >> an interesting dialogue we've been having. i appreciate listening in on the conversation, chris. the commercial surveillance tapes and gentlemen in law enforcement know better than i, oftentimes they'll keep them for x. number of days or weeks. it would be interesting to find out whether or not had they done like previous terrorists have done, did they survey the place two days before? everybody knew where the finish line was. i suspect they have gone back to see if one or two of these lookalikes were in the area a couple days -- >> if it was their first trip to this, maybe they looked for a crowd. a bunch of people there, right behind that storm fence. i thought if you're just a killer looking to kill people, you go there and put the bomb where there are a lot of people bunched together from front of the forum. >> if they flew in a couple weeks ago and thought they could

make a quick out, their photo will be on -- everyone has taken advantage of the digital technology and compared them. >> let's do good things for america. mr. borelli, you with with the fbi. where do people go to call in an i.d. if they've got one? >> go to fbi.gov. i believe there's an 800 number. i guess i'm just seeing it on my screen now. >> here it is right now. bottom of our screen in red. white on red. the 800 number. call-fbi. that's pretty easy to remember. 800-call-fbi. >> or your local fbi office will take the information as well. whatever state you live in. >> i'll tell you, again, i'll go back to that picture of the fellow. i'm sure by the time we come back on at 7:00, we're going to have close-ups of these fellows. i shouldn't call them fellows. that's too friendly. the two young guys. according to fbi agent deslauriers who said they have evidence of the guy -- i don't think we have seen the picture of them doing it -- but have evidence of the young person with the white hat and carrying

the backpack putting it down at the site there in front of the forum restaurant, we've been watching since we got the first shot of that bag. i guess it was from local statements or from lord & taylor monday night. we've been looking at that spot now since monday night. here it is thursday night. we're getting the pictures of according to the fbi the person who put it there. so we're getting a lot of information. i want to go back to mr. cavanaugh. we're going to be taking a break soon. let's clear up now, what do we no, if you're looking at this case, are you checking airlines? based upon physical descriptions? are they making judgments about the ethnic background of these people? i assume they're doing it all at this point. >> like governor ridge said with the airport technology, when he was the homeland security secretary, they did a great job. we always loved having him in law enforcement. he was very strong on that stuff. you know, what this also tells us that we didn't know before this press conference, we have a federal crime of conspiracy. that's up of the most powerful

federal laws. if two or more people conspire to commit a crime against the united states. that can add in additional co-conspirat co-conspirators. if he was talking to somebody on the phone, like al qaeda always use handlers like that, we're about to drop it, there could be other conspirators. it could have been a foreign call. it could be a fake call. two conspirators. federal speconspiracy charges. there could be accomplices helping afterward and before. maybe they surveilled this before. preincident indicators. maybe they come out and walk the route. so this is a whole lot of developments for agents and police that are going to help them crack this case and get to the bottom of this and the main thing, you know, like the ceo of netscape said the main thing is trying to keep the main thing the main thing. the main thing is no more bombs. >> what you know about this bomb, jim, is it possible that this could have been put together on site? that it didn't have to be carried on an airport? that the type of bomb with the pressure cooker and the battery

pack and the circuit board, all that information we have about how it was packed with nails and bbs, could that have been done with a simple instruction book without ever bringing anything by aircraft? >> absolutely, chris. you could have come in here on an airplane with just cash and desire and hatred and that could have been from any point in the u.s. or around the world. nothing else. cash, desire, hatred, knowledge, that's all you need. you could put these bombs together in a day, day and a half, two days. buy a backpack, buy a pressure cooker, buy your materials, put it together. you might have practiced it at a place where you came from, detonated it. that's why they may feel secure like mike barnicle pointed out and may feel secure. they feel like they're coming in, a couple of ghosts. come in, buy the materials and slip out. but they can't. they're going to be captured. you're exactly right. that's a great point. you know, we like to think about bomb makers in some kind of bomb factory that looks like this big laboratory. and a lot of times it's just,

you know, the kitchen table. >> governor, this is what is disturbing. the other side has brains, too. >> absolutely. >> go ahead. >> we've been talking about -- >> there's an allister mcqueen aspect where they go and use our airplane pilot training here. we saw it all use our airplane, our commercial airplane routes, on schedule. they used everything that was ours to kill us. >> we talk an the 21st century digital world. part of that is very much the internet. and sadly, horribly, regrettably, but the instructions can be found on the internet to build one of these. it's not that unusual or unique. >> by the way, also the idea they could come in with a set of memorized instructions. doesn't take any paper to do this. >> absolutely. i remember i think it was in 2003 or 2004 working with the fbi to send out a notification to local law enforcement about pressure cooker because they were using them in pakistan, afghanistan and elsewhere. these gentlemen probably remember it. >> let's take this from the top.

we started quarter after 5:00 tonight. mr. borelli, they decided after a day or two, we know from the fleeting, bad reporting, incomplete reporting the last few days, guy, cap turned backwards. both the same age it looks like from the pictures carrying black backpacks which match up with the backpack we've been watching since monday evening late sitting in front of the storm fence in front of the forum restaurant near the curb. an old polaroid. seeing it in develop in front of us. what's next, when they put out this universal apb, all points bulletin they put out 45 minutes ago, where are we going from here? are they sitting at some command center, a situation room waiting for the calls to come in. >> yeah, absolutely, chris. this thing is being run out of a joint operation center. we used to call it -- it's a jock and has all the

representatives, all the participating agencies. their command presence. this is the nerve center. then what you'll have is you'll have basically just an army of investigators ready to take leads. so phone call comes in. it will and is it priority one, two, or three, and team one, handle this. the next team comes in. you go. it's going to be teams coming in, talking to people, getting additional information bringing it back and it will be triaged and put back through the system and it's going to be going 24/7 until we get these guys. >> to be blunt and not to be into political profiling but when you look at a picture that we're looking at now, are there people that can look at that picture, study it and decide whether a fellow like that is from yemen or other parts like that, can they figure it out by looking at a picture? >> i've never met anybody that

can just say, you know, look at the picture and say -- >> experts. is there any way to study and face and say we have a pretty good bet that that fella -- we can do that with dna. we can find out where our dna came from. can they do that with a face? >> you know, i honestly don't know. i've never had experience using anybody with that expertise in an investigation. i can't comment. >> jim, do you know anything about that? we have the pictures. that's what we have right now. i wonder what they can do with those pictures. >> i've never seen -- if there was some discipline, i presume it would be in the academic world, dchl na world that you described. but this will move way faster than that. the way the world is, that's pretty hard to discern. i think you asked what result we could see next. i think overnight you can see barricaded suspects. you could see barricaded suspects overnight or you could see it not necessarily happening in the boston area. don't get confined that it's in

the boston area. it could wind up being in any city in america or any city in the world. somebody in london could call in and say this guys lives in the flat down the street from me. >> i agree. we saw that on 9/11 where the fellows came from germany, people came from germany and i'm not going to say the comment i got about the guy's iq but he said, i think they were from germany. these guys were not from germany and any useful sense of that world. i think commonsense sometimes does play in that. these guys were not from germany once they were training to fly planes in the air. >> see something, say something, governor ridge and everybody, another thing america needs to remember is, you know, take cover. there may be another. never think there's only one of these things. if you respond like the police and fire in boston, if you're helping or -- that's great reencouragement but if you're

not obligated or you're not doing that, take cover. there may be another. don't ever assume there may be another. >> looking at the pictures again, we keep showing them not just as a public service but people tuning in and wondering about the case and now they are seeing these pictures, this is what we call news. finally after intrigue and growing national interest, we see people described as the two suspects. in fact, richard deslauriers said, these are the suspects. there are no other persons of interest. look at these two pictures for helping us in tracking these people down. can they determine things like age of the people? what can they do looking at these pictures visually in determining who they -- graduate students or people in their early 20s, ways to find them on registrars and things like that, registries? >> sure, chris. there are experts that can look at these people and roughly give

an age estimate and things like that. but i think as mr. cavanaugh pointed out, by the time they do that, i'm in firm plef that the belief that these guys will be caught. i don't think we'll have to go to more exotic means to figure out who these guys are. it's kind of done the old-fashion way, like an america's most wanted type of thing where somebody will identify these guys and realize that, you know, it's not just everybody in america that's helping out. i mean, we've got a lot of allies overseas. i mean, a lot of really good friends that have lended great assistance to us in investigations, certainly ones that i've worked on. >> okay. >> so we've got a lot of help around the world. >> you're on a plane and one of these guys is next to you. what do you do? right now, you're waiting for a

train at amtrack and you look at the guy behind you and it's him. what do you do? >> i think you take the advice of the fbi and you don't engage them. you keep eyes on and you make sure you do an eyes on, pass a note or make sure that some -- >> you don't tackle the guy? i'm dead serious because i don't want people doing that. >> if he decides to make a move, i might do that. >> well, you're a former football player. >> i want some advice because this is not a kidding matter. don, tell me what you would do if you were a civilian and you saw one of these guys, especially the one guy we keep showing who are. >> i think you would pass a note to the flight attendant to radio to say you think you have one of those guys on board so when the plane lands they have a tactical team ready to go. they will probably let the person get off, you know, kind of go about their normal business and then as soon as it's safe, there will be a tactical operation to take custody. >> when they say presumed extremely dangerous, how quickly do they throw a tag like that on a suspect, extremely dangerous?

does that mean because they are suspected of bombing and killing three people and maiming perhaps over 100 people, is it because of the conditions of their souls or what they have done? >> it's because what they have done. they have constructed two weapons of mass destruction and have maimed hundreds of people. that's why they are armed and dangerous. beyond that, they could have weapons. who knows. side arms, who only knows. at least we know they are capable of making bombs. if they can make a pressure cooker bomb, they can probably easily know how to make smaller bombs are that concealable, like pipe bombs, so extremely dangerous. >> here's what we know. it was an extremely effective and very cogent briefing. two suspects, two young men we can see from the pictures, one

wearing a white baseball cap worn backwards with a hood on the back not over his head, carrying backpacks, black pa backpacks and basically walking along there -- it looks like a shots of them there near the crime scene. what we know about them is not much beyond what they look leak. and that's what we're looking at here. these are visual images. there you see it right there. the backpack matching the description of somewhat 20-pound pressure cooker containing the nails and the bbs and the blasting powder all matching up with the bag that's been on the curb there in front of forum restaurant. we've been watching since monday. they want to publicize these pictures. they are asking you, we are watching television, imagine if you knew any of these people, if you think you know somebody, call the fbi. we've got the number there. 800-call-fbi. it's easy to remember.

800-call-fbi. you don't need any more numbers than that. if you're in doubt, call t it's our duty tonight as part of this. this is a bad crime. these are bad people in terms of what they've done. last word from everybody, governor, this is great work so far. >> i think everybody should be commended for the extraordinary work they have done. they have put a very complex piece of puzzle together. i think you should listen to the fbi, if you're on the train, plane, don't do anything. don't tackle them. you see something, say something, let the fbi -- let law enforcement handle it. >> let me go to don borelli. what do they do if they see one of these two people? >> just what everybody else said. don't try to take the matter into your own hands. call the local police and let them handle if you want -- if all you can remember is 911,

call 911 and let the local police handle it. it will get in the right hands. don't worry about it. jim cavanaugh, last question to you. do bombers tend to be cowardly people, people who crawl under the ground or are they dangerous when they meet you? >> they are very dangerous now because they are desperate men, cold-blooded killers. you can see they are on a mission of mass murder. they are going to be desperate and -- >> and face murder one and they know it. >> and also the video is great because you can see their gait, the way they walk, very dangerous. call the fbi, call the local police, call 911, like mr. borelli said. these guys will be found tonight, in the next 24 hours where they are and we'll see something transpire. >> maybe we've help. more coming up as the reverend al sharpton