there's still a lot more we need to learn, but we know which direction it was and it's going to raise a lot of questions for u.s. counterterrorism authorities and the security in the future. >> michael isikoff, chief investigative correspondent. thanks so much, mike. thank you for watching. chris matthews picks things up right now. dzhokhar tsarnaev. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews with the latest developments in the manhunt for the boston bombing suspect. 24 hours ago, the fbi released video and photos of the two suspects as i'm speaking, authorities are carrying out a massive manhunt for one of those suspects. 19-year-old dzhokhar tsarnaev. he was born in the former soviet republic of kyrgyzstan.

his family is chechnyan. he became an american citizen last year on 9/11. authorities are searching house to house in the boston suburb of watertown where he's believed to be holed up. older brother, suspect number one was killed last night in a shootout with police. nbc news reports that at that shootout, 200 rounds were exchanged. and before that happened, he and his brother killed a security officer at m.i.t. held a man captive after carjacking him. and severely wounded another police officer. the older brother, tamerlan tsarnaev, was 26. nbc news learned he spent six months last year outside of the country. authorities are still piecing together where he went and what he did during that time. there are many questions tonight. joining me to help answer them is nbc investigative correspondent michael isikoff and former director of the national counterterrorism center michael leiter. and former fbi profiler clint van zandt. let me start with michael leiter. the other day, it seems like a year ago, two, three days ago

you, had this sense, professional instinct, if you will, that this killer, one of the two bombers, was a local. tell me how you came to that assessment. >> well, chris, my take -- >> he is a local. >> he is a local and he's got deep ties to boston. and my take was there's no doubt that the boston marathon is a worldwide known event, but unlike many of the targets, a lot of people really have used in the past, there's something specific to boston about it. there's something specific about the finish line and about patriots day and my take from that was that this is someone who knew the city, knew the region, knew what would be most terrorizing to boston. >> knew the heart of the city. >> absolutely. >> knew to hit the heart. clint van zandt, your sense now of where are we going? this has become sort of like the friday night bronco chase, if you will, in a very wide metaphor there. here we are in a chase of a person. this guy, dzhokhar tsarnaev is

being looked for. where are we at on that? how wide of a radius is being considered as a possible hideout? >> well, as you know, chris, they started with a 20-square-block area. law enforcement suggests they've been through about 80% of that. we are looking for a needle in a haystack. and look, we know his brother took a lot of hits in the gunfight with law enforcement last night before he was killed. you might suggest that this 19-year-old man we're looking for, he may have been hit, too. so he could have crawled under a building someplace. he could be barricaded inside of a house somewhere by himself, or holding a hostage, or he may, just may have been able to steal another car and our worst case scenario and get out of town. once law enforcement finishes this search of this 20 square block, then they have to regroup and figure out what cars have been stolen in the area that he might have used to get away from, or did we miss him and do we go back again? and, chris, i know we're going

into the weekend, but how long do you keep a city like this bottled up and tell everybody to stay inside? >> well, is there any way of tracking besides basically hard target, i mean, just searching block by block, inch by inch, going through trash can to trash can, every house that's up on bricks that has an open foundation, climb under there? is that all you can do? i guess dogs aren't going to help at this point, are they? >> well, dogs can help, of course. dogs -- we've got his clothing, we've got other things from the apartment where he lived as well as explosive devices. so that will all be used. look, somebody made the comment, i think, that there is more search dogs and bomb dogs in the area maybe than police officers right now. well, that's a lot of dogs. but they've got that capability and they'll be using that, too. this is the time when you've got this many resources, you do the most complete search you can, but our biggest fear right now is that we've either missed him or he's got away.

then this search is going to have to go much wider than we hoped it would go. >> clint, i'm always amazed when people, whether they are lee harvey oswald, or saddam hussein who commit hard crimes or wars or whatever and seem to have no exit plan. no plan to escape. this guy was going to sit around apparently and hang out with his hold crowd for the neighborhood and not plan on any escape, and now the time came last night to make an escape after their photos were put out there across the world in sort of an international apb, they decide to make a run for it. only at that time do they try to come up with some money. some scratch, if you will. they went out and grabbed a guy, took him to his atm machines. it seems like they'ir thinking it existed was technical. they didn't have a holistic notion of how they're going to get into this crime, get out of the crime so they could commit more crimes. what's your thinking in profiling? what do you sechbs is their thought about what would happen

after they committed this crime? >> yeah. we see a lot of guys, chris, put a lot of thinking into the front end. they develop these devices. that took them weeks and weeks to assemble all the parts and build every device to get the gun, the ammunition, to lay out the plans. all of that they were into. that was their thing. but the other end, chris, they had no idea that within three days the authorities could look at a million-plus pictures and come down to two pictures. you know what might have helped us a little bit, it's a terrible thing to say, but a number of the media ran with bad pictures. pictures, erroneous pictures, and these guys looked at the pictures on television, said, look, they've got the wrong people. we're safe. well, when the fbi came out and said, here's the two guys we're looking for, these two went into panic mode. they didn't know what to do. they knew that net was coming down on them. they knew they had to run. just like you say, chris, they had no plan to get out of town so they were making it up as they went. probably shot that first m.i.t.

police officer because they were trying to hijack or get a car on campus. they thought he might have been aware of them and they killed this guy in cold blood. just because. >> i would have gotten spooked, first monday night, a picture of what looked like to be the bomb between the curb and the storm fence and the curb, that's fast. let me go to michael isikoff for what he's been doing today. michael, this is a chase scene right now, a chase story. where are you at in reporting it? >> reporter: well first of all, physically where i'm at is right in front of the staging area where we've had a small army assemble all day. military convoys, trucks, buses of state troopers and police pouring in here. blackhawk helicopters flying above. it really does look like we're in the midst of a war zone here. or at least on the edge of a war zone. we thought that this army was

preparing for some sort of final confrontation or assault on the suspect. i mean, what this has turned out to, though, to be, is simply a massive manhunt. it now appears that there's no accomplice. it's just tsarnaev by himself eluding this massive police search. you know, it is pretty scary for the public and for law enforcement because a couple of details here, the latest word is they found something like seven ieds since last night. and the question raised, now, some of those were here in watertown in this sort of door-by-door search they're doing. others were at the house in cambridge. you know, we know additionally about the ieds that were hurled

at police when they had the confrontation late last night. so the question is, how many others are out there? so even if they get this guy, and whether they get him dead or alive, they still have to worry about whether the city is booby trapped with ieds that he's placed all around, and that makes it very difficult to reassure the public that they can go back safely and walk the streets. until they can account for and be sure that there are no more explosive improvised explosive devices on the streets of boston. >> that's a good call you made there. 200 rounds were fired last night in the shootout with the two guys. one of them was killed. seven ieds as you point out were thrown at somebody or the other. they were exposed. three killed on the day of the marathon, end up being dead. had a police officer killed last night. another one seriously wounded last night.

one suspect is dead right now. and the way it's going now, michael, they believe there's one suspect they're trying to find. and i guess the whole question here is -- >> reporter: just one guy, yeah. >> if you're chasing this person, maybe this is my mind's eye from thinking about these things, the first guy to find is in trouble. there's probably going to be more, because he will see them coming at him. the other guy won't know he's found him. he knows he's been found. he'll start shooting. this is the scariest thing in the world trying to capture somebody in this situation. >> there's absolutely no doubt the fbi, boston police, mass state police, are approaching this incredibly methodically and carefully. nothing could be a more dangerous situation. improvised explosive devices and you've got a young terrorist who may think he has absolutely nothing to lose and wants to take other people down. so part of the reason that there's a 20-square-block area, it's not going to take a long time because there are a lot of houses. they're going to do this so carefully and methodically. >> you can't walk in. >> no. >> you can't walk in on a guy

standing there with grenades. by the way, do we know if they're actually militarily made grenades or ied,s? >> improvised explosive devices like grenades. the point about them not just walking in, it's important to also note how the boston police and fbi have been very forceful, appropriately so with the media, saying do not film where we're operating. do not disclose what we're doing in our tactics. >> that shows how close you are. >> we're so careful not to do that, to keep these guys as safe as we can. >> clint, if you were one of the teams going door to door right now, how would you approach the possibility of that person being in a trash can, hiding under one of the houses up on a brick foundation? all the places you would hide in your own imagination. the person who finds him, first head he sees, will be shot at and probably killed. >> been there, done that. i've found guys hiding in closets. you open the panel to an attic and somebody is laying up there

in an attic ready to shoot you as your head comes up through that attic. these s.w.a.t. teams are good. they have mirrors and parascopes. the bottom line is, you have to go through the door and got to go in there and confront somebody. and just like we're saying, this guy has got the drop on you, unfortunately, and it's potentially not just handguns. it's explosives. remember, his brother had what has been described as a suicide, explosive vest, and he charged at police officers perhaps to blow himself up and take officers with him. this guy, if he has that, could have the same capability. >> let's go into your specialty of profiling. he's the younger son. he may well be more assimilated in this country, happier. according to words we've gotten lately, the reporting, even the night of the marathon killings, he went back and hung out with his pals. he fit in. he had a lot of friends. the older brother seems to be -- this is understandable, he came to the country that a later age at 16. it's harder to learn the language, english. harder to fit in.

he said he had no friends. he didn't understand america. what happens to the younger kid when he's no longer led around apparently by the older kid? the older son? clint? >> yeah, and that -- >> he's not a military man. he's not a military guy. >> no. he's not. no. and day one, trying to get my arms around this thing as far as motive. what would be the motive, you know, why would you attack? you know, i couldn't see a right wing nut doing it. i couldn't see, you know, we've seen a mcveigh type doing it. it didn't make sense. and on this particular case it looks like, it looks like from the reporting we're hearing on nbc and other places that the older brother, as you suggest, didn't fit in, didn't feel good. now, that's one of the key ways to radicalize someone is find someone who's disaffected, doesn't like their way of life, doesn't like the way life is is going for them and offer them something else. he may have been offered that in his six-month trip back to russia. and realize he is the influence

on his younger brother. the father is not there. 26-year-old, 19-year-old. he influenced the younger brother to pull together. what was the motive? it may be something as terribly simply as trying to draw attention to the chechnyan/russia conflict and felt this was the way to step up and get the world to look at that. >> i suggest he's hiding under -- as far away from anybody else as he can hoping this thing is going to pass over him. last thought, go ahead. michael isikoff? go ahead. >> reporter: that six-month trip to russia really does leap out. that is going to be a major focus of u.s. intelligence agencies. who did he meet with? who did he associate with? was he trained there? was he encouraged and taking directions from anybody over there? because that's a pretty big gap and it's right after that trip

that he sets up that youtube account filled with radical jihadi postings. so it's a pretty good indication that that was -- that's where he was radicalized. >> let's get back, when we come back after this break, we're going to find out, if we can, what help we're going to get from putin. because putin has put out the word he believes that the chechnyan rebels are tied in with al qaeda. clint van zandt and michael leiter stay with us. much more, including former new york mayor, of course, rudy giuliani. he's going to join us here. now what we're learning about the background of the two suspected bombers, as i said. the two brothers. this is "hardball." ♪

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and withdrawals at chase atms. all for one flat monthly fee so there's zero confusion. get rid of prepaid problems. get chase liquid. we're back and we're expecting a news conference now within the hour with the latest on the manhunt for that suspect in the boston marathon bombing.

nbc's katy tur is standing by live in watertown. katy, thanks for joining us. give us a sense, i'm going up to boston this weekend to visit my son up there. and i'm just wondering, how locked down -- it looks like a ghost town behind you there. >> reporter: oh, it depends on what's happening into tonight and tomorrow. if they still haven't found this guy, you could see the city in much of the same lockdown you're seeing today. it would be surprising for it to go on for two days. it would be hard for people to sit inside their house for this long of a period. people here in watertown have been in their houses since last night. if they have tried to leave, the cops have seen them leave, they've been ordered to go back inside. of course, that's not completely enforceable. there are not enough police officers to do that. people are actually heeding that warning. it speaks to the nervousness around this area. it speaks to the respect they have for law enforcement. for them to do their jobs. as you said, chris, though, there's about a 5:30 press conference that we're hoping. last time they said they were going to have a press conference was at 12:30. they said they'd have it probably in an hour.

hopefully this 5:30 time is going to be accurate. we do expect some news to come out of the press conference. we are hearing now that the armed robbery that everybody suspected the suspects were involved in at the convenience store, that was not them. and the timeline, it seems that there was a call for a carjacking around 10:30 last night, and an mbta police officer spotted the car near wat watertown. that's when it seems like they were able to identify these two guys were their bombing suspects. now, there are numerous pieces of evidence that they are looking at in the shootout scene. that's right down the street from where i am. you might remember the shootout scene, the youtube video we've been playing all day long with the massive amount of gunfire and explosions. they said they found evidence of homemade explosives including pipe bombs, another pressure cooker, as well as 200 spent rounds. of course, that's not surprising at all because we did hear so much of that in that video. they do also say the cambridge scene, the norfolk street

cambridge scene where they believe the suspects live, that is clear. they were going to do a controlled detonation there, but they did not have to. they did not find an explosive in there. they're not saying exactly what they did find in there. as of now, it's been pretty calm here for the past few hours. we haven't seen much activity for a number of hours now. the only thing we've seen is cars going back and forth. we did see the national guard here. national guard helicopters circling earlier today. we were wondering what that could have been about. we find out they were carrying supplies and acting as transport bringing state, local and federal officials back and forth. the national guard is here. they're basically handling logistics, crowd control, blocking off streets. the people you're seeing go door to door to look for the suspects -- >> yes. >> reporter: -- are heavily armed local, state officials. carrying heavy artillery, wearing bulletproof vests. they look much like s.w.a.t. teams. the national guard when you're seeing them are generally just here to help, to do logistics.

>> great. thank you so much, katy tur. we'll probably be back to you tonight. law enforcement officials say the tsarnaev officials are from russia, lived in krygyzstan. chechnya has been a breeding ground for terrorists. it's not clear what the motive of the boston bombers is. david ignacias is with us. let me start with richard sh, t sense, we followed the wars as americans, not even involved in it. is it nationalistic? is it islamist? bl what is the state of the separatist movement right now? >> it's hard no know if the groups were directly motivated by the chechen separatist movement. they were part, or appear to be inspired by more of an al qaeda affiliate mentality. that's according to some of the internet websites that they were looking at and the tweets that would have been put out. so it's possible that they were

inspired by the war in afghanistan. it's possible that they were inspired by what happened in iraq. the -- we don't tknow exactly what the motivation might have been. if you listen to the radio chatter when you're in afghanistan, sometimes you hear arabic, sometimes you hear chechen dialects that are being spoken. so there are chechens who are involved in a variety of fights around the world. and at this stage, according to intelligence officials i've spoken to, we don't know exactly what part of the world conflict motivated them, or how high up it went. were these guys lone wolves? self-inspired? did they have a little bit of help from an organization? at this stage we don't really know because the older brother who is the one presumably in charge, all the officials i've spoken to think it was the older brother who was the leader, the younger brother still on the run here, was much more of the follower. the older brother went to russia. did he meet with groups?

did he get a little help? or was this something totally of his own device? and for what reason? was it for chechen nationalism? or one of the other conflicts that specifically the united states and nato are involved in? >> thank you. hang in there. david ignacias joins us. years ago people would prophesize, after the cold war, if would become a fight. breakaway. republic cas in the south. the whole notion of the old part of the soviet union and us the same enemy and be allies in the fight against islamist terrorism. is this what's happening? or too small to imagine making a general case? >> that may well return, chris, certainly in the years after september 11th, 2001, the russians and the united states made common cause in fighting against islamic radicalism. the russians were fighting a very tough, bloody war in che

chechnya to suppress an independence movement there that's been percolating for several hundred years. the russians said to the united states, we are fighting the same fight, let's share intelligence. there was a lot of intelligence that was shared. in recent years, there's been more u.s. criticism of the tactics that president putin and the russians have used in chechnya. but certainly there is a joint theme of islamist radicalism fed through al qaeda and al qaeda affiliate groups. the chechens were drawn to the fight in afghanistan, worked with al qaeda. i'm told the chechens are now joining the al qaeda affiliate in syria. chechens are tough mountain fighters. they're very valuable to these groups. one theme that you saw in osama bin laden's own writings was this idea that all of the jihadist groups that were working together in the tribal

areas of pakistan, al qaeda, theth taliban, and other groups including the chechens, including the uzbek nationalist groups were beginning to develop common understandings and a kind of loose alliance. so that's another concern. >> do you have a thought on this, roger? what do you make? putin, i said before the break putin was pushing out the word that chechen nationalist was really an islamist front. now i assume he'll take advantage of this and say, i was right. >> he'll certainly try. let's be clear. the administration does not want to get into this fight. does not want to get it sucked into chechnya in any way. i think the point here is for that the obama administration, it is to cooperate with putin. there are four-party counterterrorism talks that happen between our intelligence service, their intelligence service, same with the fbi and

sfb. that exchange at the tactical level is going to go on. politically, the administration is going to be careful they don't get caught in a tidal wave. >> let me go to richard engel for another thought. >> the worry is what happens next. look at the al qaeda web forums all day, they are celebrating what is going on in boston. they are talking about how much this is costing the city of boston, how americans are, quote, living in fear, how the city is under siege. they are absolutely thrilled by the images that have been on american televisions today. and there is a concern that this could lead to a copycat. someone who could be self-inspired and with a very small amount of expertise and small amount of money can have a very big impact. >> are they claiming any role? or any solidarity with the action or simply in the result? >> solidarity, certainly. there's been one chechen group that denied involvement and a group that claimed responsibility in the past. al qaeda in the islamist maghreb

endorsed it. they go on to say, if touyou wa to be a lone wolf, here is how you do it and encourage people how to make their own bombs and things like that. there is certainly an endorsement but no specific organization that i've seen has claimed ownership of this attack and these specific -- these brothers. >> thanks, as always. richard engel for nbc news. former new york mayor rudy giuliani is with us right now. mr. mayor, thank you for joining us. your expertise is that of leading a city and as a former prosecutor and looking at this as a person who has to keep a city together, like boston is today. under reasonable watch, reasonable curfew restrictions. but they can't go on forever. how do you look at the situation in boston? we see almost a ghost town up there. >> well, i think they were right to do what they did coming out of what happened last night. i mean, they don't know where they're going to find this guy. they have no idea what they're going to face when they find him. what kind of shooting is going to take place. what kind of incendiary devices

he has. i don't think they want to see any more innocent people killed. so i think that argues for the curfew they put in effect. i also think they wanted to cut off a lot of avenues of escape by closing down rapid transit, closing down buses. closing down amtrak. you give him only one escape route and that's by automobile. gives you a better chance of catching him. you're right. you can't do this forever. i would say if it doesn't work by the end of today, going into tomorrow, you obviously can't keep this up. but i think it made sense given what they were facing to try to do this today. >> you know, you and i are about the same age. i think about how we come upon this these things. americans, if you were going for the usual suspects to use a police phrase the other day, no one i know would have said chechnya. what struck new york on 9/11 was a group called al qaeda which few people were aware of. these are not ricochets entirely. there are people on the other side of the world that don't

like our foreign policy, in the middle east who don't like our culture in any way. to them we're the enemy. doesn't it stun you, mr. mayor, people from a breakaway or rebellious former soviet union have come and killed anonymously people they don't even know but know them as fellow inhabitants of america, just as a slaughter? and we don't have a front with chechnya. we don't have a beef with them. or them with us. that just, to me, is like -- i almost feel like i don't know anything to say at this point sometimes. >> it was a total shocker to me. i went through about ten different scenarios yesterday who it could be, from, you know, islamic radicals to right-wing crazies, to just isolated people who were just nuts. i never would have thought of chechnya. the fact is, if anything, we're seen as somewhat sympathetic with the chechnyans and overcritical of the russians. maybe we're right or wrong. that's the way it's seen. i was in russia a day after the

attacks in beslan, you know, that really were a tremendous shock to the russian people. and some of the russian officials including some of the people in their security apparatus, they were lobbying me very heavily back then that we don't take them seriously enough, we don't realize how heavily connected they are through afghanistan, particularly the effort in afghanistan, you know, with the russians, how well integrated they are into the entire islamic extremist effort. this is a thing they've been trying to pitch to us now going back to the early days of the bush administration. and i think -- listening to your conversation, i don't think we should take the bait. i mean, i think that the reality is we shouldn't let these two whatever they are, maniacs, you know, start making decisions for us about our geopolitical positioning. >> and certainly not about the community, live in this country. i tell you, my new hero who is that uncle. did you love him? he was out of the movies. i love this country.

these are a bunch of losers. you know? let's watch him now. i want you to share this moment. this is one of the sort of silver linings of a horrible case. let's listen. >> i say, dzhokhar, if you're alive, turn yourself in and ask for forgiveness. put a shame, put a shame on our family, he put a shame on the entire chechen ethnicity. >> and you in new york know the importance of people getting along. i mean, one great thing about this, besides him, and he is my new hero, is the interfaith program, mass -- it wasn't a mass, it was a religious ceremony. the sberd inter part of it, people getting together. islamic, jewish, christian, catholic, getting together and holding arms. that's a good thing. the scary thing, mr. mayor, what happened to you in new york in the /11 and it's still happening here again in boston which is this mass assault on people you don't even know anonymously

trying to kill a lot of people that had nothing to do with the situation you're angry about. just to do what? and these guys didn't even take credit for it. they didn't even put the word out. hey, we did it. >> this may be a hard time to make this point, but chris, really, the remarkable thing is it hasn't happened anywhere near as frequently as we thought it would happen since september 11th. you have this, you have major hasan, a couple other incidents that were stopped. the reality is, you go from bush to obama and the efforts have been really excellent in preventing these things. far more victories than defeats. and, you know, they can't be right all the time. so i know the reaction now is to kind of overreact a bit, but they've kept us pretty darn safe. and the reality is, people in this country do not face as the greatest risk to them terrorism. there are far more risks that we face that are much greater than terrorism. so let's not overdo it. let's have a sensible response but let's not get people all

upset about terrorism. they're not going to die of terrorists. they're going to die of something else. and resiliency is a great defense to terrorism. you know, resiliency meaning we can handle -- >> the israelis have taught us that. >> and the british after the attack back in 2005. boy, they went right back to work the next day. they didn't let the terrorists bother them one bit. so we got to be careful. we've got to react. we've got to do sensible things. the same time, we have to put this in perspective. >> you know, i think one of best things you did during the 9/11 aftermath was the way you briefed. i think people need to be briefed and you did a great job. you're doing it now. people need to know what's going on. that's a calming effect here's what we know about anthrax. here's what we know now. here's what we don't know. people need to be talked to as equals. thank you, mr. mayor. thanks for coming. we're awaiting the news conference. just one suspect. they're looking for one guy right now. block to block. we'll be back in just a moment. change makes people nervous.

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we're waiting right now for officials in massachusetts to give us the latest on the manhunt. there's one suspect they're going after now. just one suspect. right now wnbc's jonathan dienst is with us from new york. i understand you have a lot to brief us on in terms of the travel, in terms of the weaponry found at the site the other night. whatever you've got, we need it. >> we're told there are seven improvised explosive devices that have been recovered from the vehicle where they were allegedly throwing out the bombs at the police officers, to some of the devices that were found including one of those pressure cooker bombs that the older brother heaved toward the police officers and was opening fire during that wild and insane shootout that was taking place overnight. and the search continues for

this suspect. they're doing it literally in a grid house-by-house, location-by-location in and around the area where he was last seen. have the whole area cordoned off. why is it taking so much time? because it is a significant area they're recovering. they remain hopeful that they will track him down, but we've got no indication that they have a sight on him at this hour. >> tell me about the older brother's travel to russia. >> yeah, it was back in january he flew out of new york's kennedy airport, flew to moscow, and was about a six-month delay. he did not return back to the united states until july. so from january to july 2012, the brother was overseas. now, the father says he visited him. the father's overseas in russia. says he visited him during that time, but the fbi and law enforcement officials want to know did he go and meet with someone who may have helped radicalize him? did he undergo or receive any weapons training? any visit to a terror camp? we have seen these in past terror plots here in new york, in the zazi plot, shizad in the

times square case. that question is open. it's happened before. they want to run that down and they're now going over all of his past movements. they're tracking his cell phones. to see who else he was in contact with. who he was in communication with. so, yes, the search is on for the younger brother who remains on the loose and considered armed and dangerous. but they want to know if they had any contacts with anyone here or overseas. and to find out if anyone else was helping them. >> did they have any reason to believe it was part of a larger operation besides the travel? >> we do not have that at this time, and we have to stress, there's to evidence at this time that that travel was for terror training. we do not -- they are looking into whether there's anything nefarious about that six-month trip. the documents show the younger brother never left the u.s. they came here seeking asylum back in what was it, 2003, 2002? >> yes. >> and the younger brother became a citizen on september 11th, 2012.

so -- and never left, at least according to these documents -- via air, out of this country. to show how they were not on the radar screen at all, it wasn't until this morning these documents show that the bulletins, the no-fly list warnings that this person may pose a security risk to the united states, was put on them. so it shows that fbi and law enforcement were playing catchup after that terrible bombing that we saw outside the marathon. >> let me go to something that's maybe sentimental on my part, but the sense of the different personalities of two brothers. the older brother said he didn't like americanss didn't understand them. the younger brother apparently socialized even the night of the bombing. maybe that's a bit strange, but he did. he had become very much assimilated, as i said, as part of our country to the point where he became a citizen. why would someone who went out and went to the trouble -- it is trouble to become a united

states citizen -- want to destroy his place in our country? >> yeah, it's a mystery to me. really, you know, this family came seeking a better life, claiming asylum, and, you know, only time will tell in terms of why these brothers, if they in fact, carried out the attacks as alleged by law enforcement, if they did this, why they did this. what's on their computers? did they self-radicalize? did the older brother influence this younger brother and turn toward hate and anger and rage toward the u.s.? and if so, why? look, the older brother, michael isikoff was reporting earl wherer today about the youtube page the older brother created that has al qaeda videos and some anti-western teachings on it that we've seen in other terror-related plots. so how they became radicalized, how they became so anti-u.s., remains a mystery at this point. >> what amazes me, as a civilian

watching this, is how much hell two young guys can do. now, whether they were trained or not, they knew how to put a bomb together because they admitted being the bombers last night when they picked up that guy to use his atm and get the $800 out of it. they did self-identify themselves as the terrorists, as the people who committed the bombing. to do all this damage, reach 96 countries participating in the boston marathon, to reach the world with this explosion so that putin is involved, our president is involved, and everyone in the world is involved in this. just two guys with no military background. to me, it's extraordinary and it reminds me of 9/11 in this sense. the amazing ability to leverage very little in terms of money, what, 9/11 was like $150,000. get them trained over here. get them to use our planes over here. get them to use our i.d. cards and phony, i think foolishly distributed driver's licenses. everything over here this time may well be from local stores. this frightening ability to

leverage minimal amounts of money, hardly any people, in the last case 20-some, in this case, 2, to wreak such hell. >> and you look and you wonder if pete williams has done an extraordinary job reporting this, is correct, that they got spooked because this police officer stumbled upon them as they were, perhaps, trying to rob that 7-eleven and that's what triggered this. what if, what were they planning to do be the bombs and guns if they didn't encounter that police officer and shoot him and kill him at pointblank range in his vehicle and sparked the wild night last night? were they planning something else? were they planning their grand finale? who knows. you bring this point up. look how many plots new york city has faced since 9/11 in expensive car bomb plots and targeting the brooklyn bridge and how close we have come time and again. sometimes law enforcement has just done great work in terms of tracking these plots before they happen. other times it's sheer luck.

but you look on the time that they got through in boston, look what's happening to that city. look what happened to those poor people. >> right. already. the economic cost, by the way. let me just say that -- it was reported earlier as a robbery of that 7 7-eleven, it was other criminals involved in that. that wasn't them. we're going to have to talk more about that. what do you have more on that? i don't think that's -- >> i think that has gone back and forth. i will check that again. it's been a long 24 hours, chris. >> the last we got was it was another group of criminals involved in that. not them. >> right. >> it's pretty sad we have that much going on on the negative side of our planet, one little place. anyway, thank you, jonathan dienst for joining us with that information. as we wait for the news brifing, could come in any moment, let's bring in roger cressey. former naval investigative agent, robert mcfadden, former atf special agent in charge, james cavanaugh. robert mcfadden, we haven't had you on yet. thank you for joining us right now about this manhunt, down to one suspect.

of course, he's apparently quite desperate. he should be. he has, perhaps, weaponry, may have bombs, ieds. certainly the first people that catch him are going to have a real frightening situation on his hands based on this desperation. your thought ls? >> absolutely. as it's been said before, it's the goal right now if he could be captured, captured alive, come in for interrogation. absolute priority is officer safety and public safety. every officer has to get home tonight safely. you know, so you have the area cordoned off. they'll probably expand that and then do re-searches of the area, too. but, you know, we all know that the best of the s.w.a.t. from boston pd and the fbi are on the case right now. >> yeah. looks like it. let me go to james cavanaugh. sir, you've been great the last few days. what is your latest info or analysis right now, what we're watching here, with so much information about the material, what they had? they had so much armed up with,

yet they looked like they were going to nestle themselves back into society. only when they saw their pictures on the tv last night did they begin what looked to be an escape attempt. >> right, chris. they didn't know whether to fight or flight, so they chose both. and, you know, your point of how did these two guys, you know, disrupt the city and the nation and geopolitical relations ad s the mayor mentioned? because of the self-deprecating virus that osama bin laden released on the world. the suicide cult of death where these guys get in it. they get radicalized to the point that they will sacrifice their lives. and that's what the suicide mechanism was for 9/11. and it's the suicide mechanism of core al qaeda. and they've tried to launch that on to the affiliated groups around the world. when they get those guys, then they can wreak that havoc.

that's what you're seeing here. at least the older brother, blue hat, i think was deeply radicalized. mike isikoff reported when he came back from russia, right after that he started all these radical postings. i think that's the virus. how does two guys do it, how does the virus do it to the human body when it's a microscopic thing? we killed bin laden but not the virus he launched on the world. >> do you have any idea, james, as you're speaking about this, we've heard of attempts to try to recruit people. in the old cold war you'd find somebody with an emotional problem, financial problem, sex problem, if you will, and work that and work that until they got the guy recruited to do easy stuff, then got him to do hard stuff. then they got their guy completely under control. these recruitments, you get on the internet at night, like we all do. we surf, we look around for stuff that's interesting to us. how do you recruit a person on the internet? how do you turn them from being a person with a religious bent, a background bent, into a warrior is. >> well, what happens -- >> on the internet?

>> what happens is the people are disaffected. that doesn't mean they're poor or don't have any money. like mohamed atta was a professional person, engineer. these guys had an ability for employment or medical school. but they're disaffected with how their life is going. and what they reach out for, as all people do, as all people do across all the great religions of the world, they reach out often for religion. whether it's christianity, islam, or the jewish religion. whatever it is. but in these guys' cases, they don't get islam. they get al qaeda. >> yeah. >> and what happens is al qaeda has this process, this gentle persuasion where they believe that they are really -- they convince themselves. i mean, it's not brainwash. they convince themselves. once they start inculcating them, you know, khalid shaikh mohammed said it, that the most important thing to be a member of al qaeda was not whether you could speak a foreign language, military training, your ability to shoot a gun, or make a bomb.

the most important thing was your willingness for self-sacrifice. that's how you get in. and that's what they've built that cult on. now, in the last few years, it's diminished with -- diminished with -- because we diminished al qaeda and bin laden. so it's diminished but it's not gone away. >> let me go back to roger cressi because we don't want to generalize on here. i like to find patterns. it's easier if you can figure out what is going on and everything being phenomenal and chaotic, you'd like to think -- when people are willing to kill people by the numbers, lots of people, it's usually a deep religious thing, like the crusades, they are in the way of god and then they die, or the soviet cold war where you deeply believe in communism and the ends justify the means or you're

crazy. but normal people don't usually start out by killing people, putting a bomb or two bombs at a finish line of a marathon race. so you have to ask the question, what's the deep motivation if it's not religion or ideology or a combination of the two, then we're left with nothing to go on. >> right. >> that's where we are looking for a pattern. >> i've not bought into the theories just yet because i'm going to wait for the facts but you've seen political, individual disenfranchisement for a whole reason that have nothing to do with al qaeda. all we know is that the older brother went to moscow for six months, came back and started posting videos. when i did commentaries for a living, that wasn't enough to draw a conclusion. >> what does that tell you, somebody goes to russia and seems to be radicalized at least in the way that they speak on the internet? >> clearly something was going on.

here's a point we haven't talked about. these guys did the bombing and then assembled or already assembled multiple ied devices. they weren't looking to escape. >> that's right. >> they had a plan to kill more innocent. >> right. >> there was something much bigger here that -- >> you might think they lightly thought that they would get away with this and further actions. >> they were quote/unquote, normal. they had integrated into our society and yet something fundamentally changed. >> the older brother said i don't like any of these people. i don't understand them. that's a pretty strong statement. >> at the same time, he was a successful boxer. he did several other things. there were people who believed -- the boxing coach thought he was a great guy. so saying you don't like people is not enough to become a terrorist. >> we're going to bring in the news conference the minute it comes with the latest

development of the we never know for sure when these things are going to come. we expect it any minute now. we'll be right back after this. vo: from the classic lines to the elegant trim in each and every piece, bold will make your reality a dream.

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we're back and we're still waiting for that news conference by law enforcement officials up in boston in the latest developments for the manhunt for the one suspect in monday's bombing m the other suspect is dead. last night the bombing suspect shot and killed an m.i.t. police officer. before a shootout in watertown, massachusetts. sect seth is joining us.

what did you see? >> i actually received an alert from the m.i.t. alert system saying that there had been a shooting there so arrived there a little after 11:00 p.m. and the shooting was at 10:48 p.m. >> so what can you tell us? >> at that point, at that scene, there was not a lot going on anymore. i followed some state police, the massachusetts state police from there and eventually over to watertown where the second -- where the shootout with police had occurred. and at the time that i arrived, they had not yet secured a perimeter and as we quickly discovered, they believe and in fact it seems like may still believe that the younger brother was still in the area and a very small area and what was remarkable about that was how what essentially is a suburban residential area of watertown

was turned into a tactical s.w.a.t. staging ground. >> yeah. i've seen some pictures. yeah. did you follow along? you went from one scene to the other? >> yes. yeah. exactly. >> okay. seth, thanks for joining us. it's helpful. do we still have robert mcfadden on? we should go to roger cressey. you've been very careful here. i understand you're a professional. i think it's because of the way we talk on and off the camera that there's so many different possibilities, right? >> right. >> even in the case that we've gotten this far with one suspect dead, both claiming responsibility last night when they used that guy to get their atm money, what's interesting people find is the human part of this, even in a case of horrible villains in this case, they spared the life for the guy who got the money out of the bank for them. >> exactly. the motivation and choices that the brothers made doesn't fit a

pattern. >> they are not mad killers. >> they are murderers, but they made a specific choice to spare the life of the individual whose car they hijacked and stole his money. why, if they are on a large scale basis. there's a lot here -- >> can you imagine the story that guy will tell, the one atm that is closed? and then they went to another one and maxed out a heavy amount of money. $800. and then for some reason they didn't understand -- i'm sure they couldn't be convinced otherwise, you can't just go to another one. they are all connected. they tried that. and after those three events and having hijacked the guy's car at gunpoint, after going through a half hour with the guy, they decided to spare him. >> there's so many interesting steps in the activity of these individuals since the fbi news conference that reconstruct that law enforcement is going to be doing now, it's critical. >> i just hope we get the guy alive without