ere are a lot of places you could take your explorer for service, why do you bring it back to the ford dealership? they specifically work on fords. it seems to me like the best care. and it's equal or less money, so it's a value for me. get a free brake inspection and brake pads installed for just 49.95 after rebates when you use the ford service credit card. who doesn't enjoy value? good morning. i'm chris jansing. groining travelers may finally get congress to do something about the sequester. over the last five days, they have caused thousands of delays at airports all across the country, and right now staffing issues are delaying flights at jfk and at chicago's o'hare. expect more of this. here's what the faa says. as a result of employee furloughs due to sequestration the faa is implementing traffic management initiatives at airports and facilities around the country. travelers can expect to see a wide range of delays that will change throughout the day

depending on staffing and weather-related issues. senator harry reid wants to roll back the quester slightly using savings from the wars in iraq and afghanistan. senators amy klobuchar and john hoevner are introducing a bill to give the faa more flexibility to manage the cuts and senator kirsten gillibrand is working on a bill to reinstate air traffic controllers but cuts. the faa chief, michael huerta and senatorgy rockefeller met yesterday and there was also a lot of fingerpointing at a very contentious hearing. >> we told them that they should expect major impacts at facilities. >> everybody knew that. >> i want to bring in the "washington post" deputy national editor and patrick gavin. good morning. >> good morning. >> we've seen the sequester impacts sort trickling out but this, when people have to sit on

the plane and sit at the airport and get to where they warrant to go to late, could this be what's going to make rolling back the sequester either a priority, or will it make a difference for maybe just the airline portion of it? >> well, i mean, sure, it could be. you know, from the outset everyone warned that the sequester would be a big deal but the impact wouldn't be felt immediately, that it would take some time and here we are, some time out. seeing the effects of it, but so far the momentum has been towards fixing the immediate problems. you know, you saw this with meat inspectors and specific agencies in which voters and consumers feel. could it trigger some grand solution? it could. that certainly is what the white house would prefer, but so far i think we've seen the momentum being towards fixing the problem at hand. >> well, here's what jay carney had to say about that. >> congress has to act. now, if congress wants to address specifically the problems caused by the sequester with the faa, we would be open to looking at that, but that

would be a band-aid measure. >> so are we going to see, patrick, maybe some sort of band-aid measure? it looks like at least they are willing to discuss it at the white house. >> i do think you'll see a bit of a band-aid measure, not as you saw in that clip from jay carney, not what the white house would prefer. we have to remember that the whole idea of the sequester was put in motion with the idea of being that these cuts would be so drastic and so draconian that nobody would possibly accept them, and yet here we are accepting them, so the idea that programs what we're seeing now with the faa is going to spark a renewed interest in congress to work on devastating reduction or perhaps to increase revenue depending on what side you're on, i mean, if there wasn't a motivation to stop the jester in the first place, it's hard to see the motivation of doing sort of a grand bargain, so i think in the short term is what you're going to see in the very least are the band-aid measures which is not what the white house would prefer, but when you do have flight delays and things that do affect americans all over the country, it's sort of hard to ignore that.

>> it almost likes like there might be a number of other headlines. sequester to reduce fda food inspections. "the new york daily news," budget cuts for the navy sink fleet week, and in politico. even "sequester hits boston terror trial," talking about how furloughs are hitting the public defender's office in boston. the stories do keep coming, then i guess it becomes is one of them big enough to act? is there any impetus to act with everything else that's going on? >> well, this does seem like one of the sort of unintended consequences of this. i think like patrick said, the big hope was that all of these things would add up to nobody being able to withstand the sequester, and everyone agreeing that if you add up all the things that you just ticked off, not to mention all the others, that no one could live with that, and we'd have to hold hands and find some kind of solutions and instead what i think you're seeing is airlines are the eastiest ones to spot and they hit a lot of people and

that's true for things like meat inspections so what you're seeing is individual -- individual divisions and constituents coming and saying, please, please, spare us our sequester cut, and agencies trying to find work-around for that. now, who is going to say stop the madness in all of this when everyone is trying to lobby for their own interests? i think it's hard to say. >> i want to brick in congressman chris van hollen, the ranking democrat on the house budget committee. good to see you this morning. >> good to be with you, chris. >> i wonder what your reaction has been in your office. a friend of mine who got stuck having to get off a flight at l.a.x. and was like three hours late coming into new york said her pilot actually said on the intercom you can thank barack obama for this. other reporters have said that they have heard a lot of rumblings in the seats about people complaining about congress. what are you hearing from your constituents about flight delays? >> there's a lot of frustration as sequester begins to impact

other places like the food and drug administration. look, the solution here is to replace the sequester, to have a piece of legislation that achieves the same amount of deficit reduction over a period of time but in a targeted way, and i've actually tried four times just this career to get a vote on a proposal that would replace the sequester in its entirety so that we're not going at this in a band-aid fashion. if you fix one problem, you're just going to have another one pop up until we deal with the underlying cause, the underlying disease here. let's treat the underlying disease, not the symptoms alone as they pop up. >> so if jay carney is indicating the president might be willing to look at just this. are you against any type of any band-aid approach? >> i'm not against doling with the impacts of the sequester, but what i'm saying is every week there's going to be another thing that pops up so rather than, you know, rushing to fix the problem, you know, three days after it pops up, let's try and deal with the underlying cause. i mean, that's what you would do

if you were, you know, going to the doctor to try to treat an illness. you try to get at the bottom of the issue. we have a very concrete proposal to do that, and all we're asking for, chris, is a vote on that proposal. if our colleagues want to say no, if they want to say they prefer to keep the sequester in place, that's the choice they can make, but we've given them an option, an alternative that says let's do this deficit reduction, but by targeted cuts, for example, to excessive crop subsidies, by getting rid of some tax breaks, that combination of cuts and revenue can address the same deficit reduction without all this disruption. >> well, where are we congressman with the budget because there's a house plan. there's a senate plan. the president put out his plan, but are you involved in, are there substantive discussionesors about where to go next, how to reconcile all these different ideas? >> well, i'm glad you asked that, because we now have a house budget. i don't agree with the house

budget, but we have a house budget and a senate democratic budget. the next step in the process, what we call regular order, is to go to conference so we have a conversation about how to iron out the differences, try and have a negotiation, but right now the speaker of the house has refused to send conferees to that conversation. i mean, and you can't work this out if you don't have people at the table which is why yesterday i submitted a -- a bill calling upon the speaker simply to appoint conferees to get that conversation going. i mean, the american people rightfully expect us to try and work out these differences, but if you're going to block the next step in the process in working out the differences, it's -- we can't get there, so let's -- let's go in right now and finalize a budget. >> let me ask you about another headline that's out there today. this morning, nbc news has confirmed that lawmakers are talking about the possibility of exempting, both lawmakers and staff members, from participating in obama care,

from joining the health care exchanges. do you think members of congress and their staff should get insurance from those exchanges? was it written into the bill that way? >> yeah. i saw that report. i'm not part of those conversations, chris. i don't think that members of congress or their staff should get any kind of special treatment under the law. i mean, everybody should essentially be treated like any other americans under the affordable care act and the affordable care act, i think, is going to help over time bring down health care costs and certainly expand access to affordable care. everybody should be treated the same. >> congressman chris van hollen, always good to see you. >> good to see you, thanks. >> patrick, it is a little complicated, although you could argue this is an optics issue for the democrats. bottom line though is their rules, and are they a little different for lawmakers and staffers joining these exchanges than they are for regular people? lay it out for us.

>> i mean, they are not different rules, and i think that just the fact that the story is kind of out there, because it does create such bad optics for lawmakers on capitol hill if they are going to exempt themselves from it. what's at issue here is when you have a federal employer the size -- the employer the size of the federal government joining into these health exchanges, what's at issue here is how is the government going to pay for the health insurance for a lot of these staffers, for a lot of these lawmakers without the premiums being raised because if their premiums go up and costs go up you'll see what's being described in the piece at a brain drain, not necessarily a lot of lawmakers and staffers decide this is not a line work i can afford and they will leave capitol hill. i think the federal government is smartly going to realize they have to find a way to -- to find the money to cover these folks because i don't think that the optics of congressmen exempting from a law that they themselves passed or at least a majority of them is going to sell very well across the country. >> and john boehner's spokesman

released statement saying, quote, the speaker would like to see a resolution of this problem along with the other nightmares created by washington democrats' health law which is why he supports full repeal. in the meantime, it's democrats' problem to solve. any way, anything gets done here. >> something will have to get done because the law obviously is going to go into effect so we'll see whether they are able to. as patrick said, the real conundrum is that either potentially premiums could go up for federal employees, congressional employees, or if the employer were to subsidize their premiums then that's the government subsidizing the premiums and that's a bind that they are in. if they opt out, democrats and republicans will have to do it together. i don't think democrats can be the only ones seeing saying they want out of obama care for themselves. >> we did see, and i don't know if we saw an internal problem in the gop, eric cantor, the majority leader, pulled back a bill that he had to make changes to the health care law. >> yeah, he did, and this is

part of two problems that the republican party is seeing. one, you know, democrats have this issue as well as sort of keeping your caucus in line and keeping them on the same page. i think republicans are having a hard time doing on the issue of observing abe. two, i think republicans are having a hard time figuring out how to sort of address observing abe. obviously they -- a lot of them are swept into office that they would chip away at it and have not been terribly successful. there are parts of the bill such as keeping your children on your insurance plan that is very popular, and then the other question is if you drop parts of it what are you going to repraise it with, and that's a lot of what you saw yesterday from the republican caucus, are we replacing one big government program with another republican program which didn't sit well with a lot of republicans. >> thank you both. >> thanks a lot. president obama is in texas today and has a very busy schedule. this morning he'll attend the bush library dedication along with the first lady and the four other living presidents. he'll speak a little over an

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there's a lot of new stuff coming to light today in the boston marathon investigation. the sarnaiev brothers' parents spoke to the press in russia just a short time ago. the father says he plans to leave for the u.s. today, although he doesn't yet have a ticket. the mother meantime is contradicting authorities saying her son dzhokhar, currently in a boston hospital is not writing or speaking and says investigators have not started questioning him and complained she's being kept from seeing him. meantime, not just the fbi but the cia put tamerlan tsarnaev's name on a terrorist watch list raising new questions about

interagency communication and potentially missed opportunities. secretary of state john kerry gave the strongest suggestion yet that tamerlan's trip to russia could have included some kind of training. >> we just had a young person who went to russia and chechnya who blew people up in boston, so he didn't stay where he went, but he learned something where he went, and he came back with a willingness to kill people. >> also new, investigators told members of congress the two bombs that went off at the marathon were detonated with the kind of remote device used to control a toy car, and the suspect's mother also says authorities have asked her about misha, a mystery friend of tamerlan whose uncle says brainwashed his nephew. i want to bring in democratic congressman adam schiff of california who sits on the democratic select committee on intelligence. good to see you. >> good morning. >> there was an intelligence committee briefing held late yesterday. did you get some important questions answered there. >>?

>> we did. we got a very good time line of the nature of the investigation while it was proceeding and, of course, what they are doing now to track down all the leads, both here as well as in chechnya and dagestan, and i, you know, i have to take issue with some of the early reports that somehow the fbi dropped the ball or the agencies weren't talking to each other. that really doesn't seem to be the case. i mean, we're just beginning this investigation, but i haven't seen evidence yet that there was some big glaring piece that was missed. the fbi did receive this as well as the cia, this nearly identical or identical inquiry from russia. the fbi followed up on it and were not able to substantiate the russian claim and went back to the russians and said tell us more, give us more to go on and the russians didn't respond so i'm not sure that we can conclude credit that we're stovepiping or some of the other problems we saw pre- 9/11. >> let's talk about some of the specifics, and i'll let you answer some of the criticism with the knowledge that you've gotten about exactly what happened, particularly about this trip.

so he shows up at the airport in 2012. customs officers notice that he's on this list, and apparently that triggered an e-mail to the customs agent who was actually assigned to this case in the joint terrorism task force in boston, but then that agent reportedly told officials that he gets hundreds, hundreds of these kinds of e-mails, doesn't remember that one in particular. does it make you stand back and say systemically there might be something wrong because if somebody is getting hundreds of these in a given day what purpose does it serve? >> well, that's a good question, and i don't think we can give a definitive answer yet, but the reality is we get probably 10,000 to 20,000 leads like we get from the russian government. now, they are followed up and i think it's -- it's encouraging that in this case that lead wasn't dropped. the fbi went out and interviewed him and did a background check in terms of online sources. they weren't able to find anything, and one of the

questions i've asked is were there things out there that we would have seen at the time had we done a more thorough check? we don't know the answer to that question yet, but we do know that the fbi did proceed on it. they did investigate it. there are people who are frankly of much greater suspicion than these brothers were at the time, that is, we had much greater reason to be concerned about others, you know, many hundreds, many thousands of oh, and the reality is we just don't have the resources to surveil everyone we get information on. >> and i assume never will. >> probably won't, given the extraordinary number of leads that we get. we have to prioritize and here the intelligence agencies did prioritize. this wasn't someone that they investigated and found reason to suspect that they had become radicalized. had that been the case, they would have been elevated to a neck stage. they would have been put on a no-fly list, but they didn't have that information, so it's

hard to say that they -- that they made some error in judgment or they weren't talking to each other. the reality is they looked, but they didn't find a reason to elevate his status in terms of his being a suspect or not being able to fly. >> and yet he was there for over six months, a part of the ca caucasus region where radicalization has grown. i spoke to your colleague peter king yesterday on this program, and he said there had to be a higher level of training, other than people just putting bombs together in a kitchen or in a house. what can you tell us about tamerlan tsarnaev's time in russia, and how concerned are you that that might hold some important keys? >> well, it may hold some important keys, burr i really think that my colleague may be rushing to judgment on this. the reality is we don't know. we don't know yet what contacts he had yet.

we do know that the bombs were relatively unsophisticated and the devices used to detonate them were relatively unsophisticated, that the ingredients were not very expensive, and it's entirely possible that these two put these bombs together on their own using online sources. now, it may be that the older brother was further radicalized, or it may be that he received some kind of assistance or training, but so far we don't have evidence of that, and i don't think we should leap to that conclusion. we may find, and this may be even more troubling, that they were completely self-radicalized in the united states, that that's where the real radicalization took place. that is almost a more difficult problem to deal with than someone who travels to a foreign country and gets radicalized or at least we may have something that may tip us off. >> congressman, thank you so much for coming on the program. >> you bet. >> this morning the fire is out on board two fuel barges in mobile, alabama, but, boy, the pictures out of there devastating. it was rocked by seven

explosions throughout the night. three people were hurt in the initial blast. investigators say they don't know what started the fire. the crippled carnival cruise ship "triumph" is undergoing repairs just across from these barges. that cruise ship had to be evacuated. time for the your business entrepreneur of the week. ryan, son of well known artist charles arnaldi, was inspired by his fathers of paint-stained paper scraps collecting them to use them as wrapping paper. now with a collection of his own design he founded wrap and sells his products across the country. for more batch "your business" sundays morning at 7:30 on msnbc. we've all had those moments. when you lost the thing you can't believe you lost. when what you just bought, just broke. or when you have a little trouble

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four for just ten bucks. to politics now where mark sanford debated a cardboard cutout of nancy pelosi. the former south carolina governor and congressional candidate said he had to do it because his opponent, elizabeth colbert bush, won't. in a tweet sanford said pelosi is colbert bush's biggest benefactor. speaking of nancy pelosi, a any gallup poll show she's got the biggest disapproval rating of all congressional leaders beating out john boehner and hair e reid and mitch mcconnell, not that any is popular. >> and bill clinton is where you

can find the former president on twitter. he has a new handle after stephen colbert signed him up. former picture tweeting congressman anthony weiner can't say for more there are not anymore dirty pictures of him. he admitted it's not 20 or 100, but it was more than one person. he says he'll decide soon if he'll run for new york city mayor. but someone who is running for new york city mayor announced by rap. remember. jimmy mcmillan? ♪ i'm jimmy mcmillan, 2013. i'm running for mayor. come and run with me. >> you remember him. he got a lot of attention when he ran for governor of new york in 2010. taxes are too damn high. we'll be right back. a bad dream, be ready. for the times you need to double-check the temperature on the thermometer, be ready. for high fever, nothing works faster or lasts longer. be ready with children's motrin.

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w. bush library and museum. the quarter of a billion dollar facility sits on 23 acres of southern methodist university campus. it includes an exact replica of the oval office, a place where george bush made arguably the most controversial decision of his presidency, to go to war in iraq. >> my duty was to protect the homeland, and i made some very controversial decisions. >> have you rethought any of them? >> no, no, because we were successful in protecting the homeland. people are going to argue about whether such and such yielded information, and i'm telling you it did. >> nbc news presidential historian michael beschloss joins me and joined by wayne slater senior political writer for "the dallas morning news" and author of "bush's brain." michael, let me start with you. we saw what some of the inside of that museum looks for, the bullhorn and iconic image after 9/11. >> right. how much of this library and any library is about history, and

how much is about bunnishing an image in. >> it's usually the two side by side, and people who were in the presidential library business basically say that for about the first 30 or 40 years after the library opens, it's the period during which the family and the entourage are very much involved so they tend to want to see things that are favorable to the president, but when they are less involved or when they pass, that's when a loibry gets to be a lot more two-sided. for instance, the truman library, they refer to themselves as one of the early post-presidential family libraries. >> and it was interesting when i saw in your column that in the library there's a statue of the president's dog barney and miss beazley but limited references to dick cheney, karl rove and donald rumsfeld, three of the very controversial figures of his administration. are you interpreting anything from that? >> i'm interpreting that barney never gave him bad advice, not that karl and rumsfeld and

cheney did. this is an expression of the president of the united states. i know mrs. bush and the ex-president talk about this as a monument, not to him, but to all the people who were associated with every aspect of his administration, but the truth is it's george w. bush's name there, and so you have a statue of george w. bush and his father, which i think is particularly touching, and an historic sort of connection that i think is great. this library does not ignore the controversial aspects of this administration. it deals with katrina. it deals with the run up to the war, the decisions to go there, and it deals to some extent with the financial crisis, but these are all dealt with not so much as debates but as opportunities for the library to justify what the bush administration did. fundamentalitily this is a library that's a justification of the george bush administration. >> and it's almost as though, michael, and i'm just judging from the little bit that i've seen on television and the

interviews that he's been doing over the last couple of days that he's letting the museum speak for hi. this is a president who unlike other living presidents has decided he's going to stay out of the limelight. he's not going to talk policy. he is not going to start a huge foundation and start running around the world. he is happy -- in fact, he said he can't wait when this is over to go back home and paint and do what he's been doing. >> and that's genuine. he is painting. he's actually becoming a very good painter, learning a little bit more about golf, spending a lot of time with his friends and family and grand doubter. >> is it a missed opportunity to change people's opinions, people even who don't like maybe what bill clinton did or jimmy carter admire building houses, admire the clinton foundation. >> i think they do, but, for instance, jimmy carter has been called the best ex-president in history. he takes that as a rank insult because it's sort of like best restaurant in a hospital or something, you know, not something that you'd want to be if you were a good president. that has not particularly blown back on his presidential career

so i think george w. bush, if he wants history to remember him well actually it may be good for him to sort of step back and let the process work its will. >> how big of a challenge is it, you know, for the president, do you think, wayne, who has, even as george w. bush has not spoken of him, has said some not flattering things about his presidency? what do you think we'll hear from president obama today. that's a little tricky line he may be walking. >> look, this is the bush crowd. this is the bush house. obama will be i think if not effusive certainly gracious in his discussion of his predecessor. that's what's going to happen here today. this is george bush's day, and there's no reason for certainly the ex-presidents on the stage or the president of the united states to rain on that parade. >> all right. well, we're out of time, but i've got to ask you. are you expecting effusive or gracious? >> gracious. >> michael beschloss, always

great to see you. wayne slater, thank you very much. stay with msnbc because "hardball" host chris matthews will host special live coverage of today's dedication ceremony that begins at 11:00 eastern time. checking the news feed. new information in a deadly shooting we first told you about in illinois yesterday. police say the nephew of a smalltown mayor is accused of killing a grandmother, a young couple and their two small children in their home in manchester, illinois. before running away, police say rick smith took an injured 6-year-old girl out of home and handed her to a neighbor. he was killed hours later after a chase and a shootout with police. we have no word on a motive. this morning the search continues for survivors. more than 24 hours after a building collapse killed almost 200 people in bangladesh. one day before the collapse, police had apparently ordered the garment factory evacuated because of deep cracks in the walls, but those warnings were ignored, and 2,000 workers were kept on site. a fast moving line of intense storms spawned two

tornadoes and knocked out power to more than 30,000 people just outside of new orleans. officials in kenner say the storms damaged at least 20 homes, although to one was hurt. you're not going to believe this. high school prom season is here, and parents are digging deeper. cnbc's mandy drury is here with what's moving your money. boy, it's a lot more expensive to go to the prom than it was when i went. >> hitting an average now, chris, of $1,131 per family, according to a new visa survey representing an increase of 5% over last year. in fact, visa is even launching today a new free smartphone app that's going to help you be able to plan every budget and every aspect of the prom, so anyway, these are some of the interesting findings, chris, from that visa prom survey. some interesting regional disparities. for the second year in a row the northeast led the nation in spending. the midwest, that had the least and an average of $722, but one

troubling statistic is that parents who fell in the lower income brackets, that's classified by visa as less than $50,000 a year, plan to spend more than the national average at $1,245 while parents who make over that amount will spend an average of $1,129. additionally, single parents plan to spend $1,563, almost double the amount that married parents plan to spend. >> wow. >> so it's some incredibly interesting statistics come out of that survey. >> cnbc's mandy drury, thank you so much. >> thank you. we all know the feeling, waiting forever in a doctor's waiting room. well, surprisingly that comes in sixth in "consumer reports" survey of top patient complaints. the number one gripe, unclear explanation of a problem. test results not communicated fast enough was nearly as high. americans also complain about billing disputes that are hard to resolve, difficulty getting a quick appointment when sick, and rushed office appointments.

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a bombshell and a bush family feud over whether former florida governor jeb should try to become the third bush president. >> wouldn't you like to see your son jeb run? >> he's by far the best qualified man, but, no. i really don't. i think it's a great country. there are a lot of great families, and it's not just four families or whatever. there are other people out there that are very qualified, and we've had enough bushes. >> but former president george w. bush says his brother should run and would be, quote, a marvelous candidate. jeb bush will be at today's dedication of the george w. bush presidential center. so will hillary clinton. of course, also a potential 2016 contender. clinton was in dallas last night giving her first paid speech since stepping down as secretary of state. at the same time the former governor jeb bush spoke in dallas as well about immigration

and education. let me bring in new msnbc host karen finney who also served as deputy press secretary to then first lady hillary clinton and worked on her successful u.s. senate bid, and republican strategist john fiery. good to see both of you. >> good morning. >> watching the faces of the two other generations of barbara bush was interesting, and we all gasped and it takes a lot to get our attention and you've got to wonder if jeb is wishing she never said that. >> that's a good point. barbara bush is known to speak her mind, and obviously she's been through it and wants her family to take a break from all the spotlight, but i do think that jeb bush could be a very good president. i think he would help expand the republican base. he has great message on upward mobility and cares about issues that are important for this country, like education and immigration and health care, and i think he'd be a great candidate, but obviously mrs. bush has other thoughts for her son.

>> i think i can say realistically the media would love it because the matchup everybody would love to see, karen, is bush/clinton. >> yeah. >> here's how former president george w. bush describes that. >> your brother versus hillary clinton? >> well, it would be a fantastic photo. >> is that -- is that how you describe it, karen, a fantastic photo? >> sure, why not. you really have to give it to barbara bush for just being so blunt and so honest. there's something very freeing about being a former first lady. i think it's also something this applies to hillary, and that is if hillary runs, if jeb runs, they both have to try to step away from their last names and be seen as individuals in their own right with their own accomplishments. i mean, both of them obviously have that, but there's something -- it's part of why when hillary ran for senate the first time it was hillary,

right. we were trying to very intentionally make it about her and her ideas, and similarly, you know, i had this idea that if jeb ran he'd have to be like sort of just jeb and try to step away from bush. again, just so that people would see him for his own man. >> well, i think that's been written about both of them, hasn't it? john, step away from the bush, step away from the clinton. >> yeah. >> is that a problem for either or both? >> well, it's both a problem and an opportunity. >> yeah. >> obviously if you have the last name, you have a huge financial network. you have people that have heard of you. they know what you're about, and people like familiarity. that's why so many politician's sons and daughters become politicians themselves. that being said to be president your own person, the biggest legacy both of these candidates is iraq. jeb bush's brother got him into iraq and hillary clinton voted for iraq, so how do you dance around that, and then as you said, they can't just talk about

the past, they have to talk about the future and what they want to do with the future, an they have to prove themselves to be the candidates of the future and not of back to the future. >> well, i think the other thing that you can say for sure about them, karen, money will not be a problem. >> right. >> they both have -- with the family name comes a certain infrastructure, and maybe debts that are owed, political debts, so there is that. >> yes. >> but is one or the other a much better campaigner? >> oh, come on, chris. of course i have to say hillary is a better campaigner. >> don't -- do you put them both in the top tier though? it would not be a matchup, you would think, where people would say, particularly people on the campaign team, i wish you knew him or her in person because they are so much more interesting. >> well, yeah. >> they are much funnier, they are much nicer. >> i think america has gotten, you know, a very good opportunity to get to know hillary, not just obviously as first lady and not just from her

senate campaigns, but obviously because the democratic primary went on so long in 2008 and that meant that more exposure to more democratic party voters and more places, and one of the things that has been a hallmark of the way she campaigns, and it was something that we used to have to build time in for, is she will stand on a rope line and talk to people for as long as she possibly can, and people really appreciate that, and i think it's that person-to-person contact that really makes a difference with voters. i haven't seen jeb bush campaign, but i know that hillary has stamina like nobody i've ever seen before, and i think, you know, also going to the other point, i think part of the question after this obama presidency will be where do i want to go from here, and i think if it does end up being, you know, a jeb bush or hillary clinton, the question people have to ask is do we feel more comfortable with the idea that we might get another bush kind of legacy or do we feel -- do we entrust the future to hillary clinton who, you know, most recently has done such a stellar job as our secretary of state, and i think people still fee

good about the clinton legacy. >> i wonder if given the fact that both of them are so talked about, so buzzed in their own parties and there's so much goodwill right now, but they haven't been in elected office very recently, and so, you know, if you're up there is it easier to fall when you've already been put on the pedestal by your party, john? >> well, you know, i do think for jeb bush he will have a better time in the republican primary because he's such a well-established name. i think hillary clinton is obviously the front-runner for the democrats. the big question in 2016, what's the issue set? how is obama care being implemented, another terrorist attack, are we at war? what are the things that people care about, and, you know, how does jeb bush appeal to this growing hispanic vote? can he make inroads? can he do better than mitt romney? i mean, these are all questions that are really -- we don't know the answers to those questions. i do know that both hillary and

jeb are very smart political operators and very smart policy so i think that either one will do a good job in the white house. >> john, giving a thumb's up not just to jeb bush but also to hillary clinton, karen finney, i know who she prefers. thanks to both of you. >> thanks. >> and by the way, welcome to msnbc. that's going to wrap up this hour of "jansing & company." i'm chris jansing. chris matthews picks up our coverage after the break. we'll have full coverage of the dedication of the bush presidential library.

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hello, everybody of i'm chris mat thousand, and we're live in dallas, it'sias, for msnbc's special coverage of the george w. bush presidential center dedication. here's a live look actually at the center itself located at southern methodist university, a great university.

president obama and former presidents jimmy carter, george herbert walker bush, bill clinton, they are all attending and are expected to speak at today's ceremony. there t will also be a reunion of sorts between president bush and his former vice president dick cheney, and we're expecting to see former secretary of state condoleezza rice, call rove, former governor jeb bush and many other high-profile guests. the facility was created by robert a.m. stern architects including a library museum archives, a public policy institute, the bush foundation and a 15-acre park. actually sits on 23 acres at smu which is former first lady laura bush's alma mater. the site was chosen in 2008, and they broke ground here in 2010. the former president was said -- has said it will be a place, to quote, lay out facts about his eight years in office, not to defend his tenure, he said, attentive face challenges and

controversy before it even began starting with the contested election of the year 2000 which had to be decided by the u.s. supreme court. >> our country has been through a long and trying period, with the outcome of the presidential election not finalized for longer than any of us could ever imagine. >> it was an eight-year tenure, of course, the bush presidency, that almost immediately faced unimaginable tragedy and gave the president a big job of healing the country which was certainly grieving. >> i can hear you. the rest of the world hears you. and the people -- [ cheers and applause ] -- and the people who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon. >> that was, of course, his great moment, but that resilience soon led to war, first with the u.s.-led invasion of afghanistan in 2001.

followed by shock and awe as you just heard in iraq in 2003 precipitated by bush's infamous 16 words. here they are. >> the british government has learned that saddam hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from africa. our intelligence sources tell us that he has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes suitable for nuclear weapons production. saddam hussein has not credibly explained these activities. he clearly has much to hide. >> but despite the conflicts overseas, the controversial policies surrounding the war on terror, the disastrous aftermath of the hurricane katrina and the crash of the financial system president bush has held tightly to the belief that history would remember him fondly. >> i never thought about my

critics. i thought about just laying out for the american people the events that began the 21st century, and let them understand what it's like to make a decision, talk about the different events that took place, talk about some of the successes and some of the failures, because ultimately history will judge. >> and maybe that's the part of the reason why he's mostly stayed out of public life. the spotlight certainly these past four-plus years but today the former president and new grandfather, of course, will try to write another chapter of his legacy. and one of the enduring aspects of george w. bush's legacy, of course, will be his unwavering leadership in the wake of the september 11th, 2001 attacks. the images of him with that bullhorn, as we just saw on ground zero, will forever live in the american psyche. joining us right now as america's mayor as he's been called for all these years, rudy giuliani, former mayor of new

york city, during the 9/11 attacks and former presidential candidate as well. mr. mayor, thank you so much for joining us. you know, i have to ask you about the bushes. there's a comment this morning from mrs. bush which is really kind of reminds me of eisenhower talking about vice president nixon, unfortunately, back in 1960. she said we've had enough bushes. you know, she's a candid woman, i'll tell you, what a mother to have, but i remember once asking her a question. i said you look pro-choice, and she said i'm not telling you what i am. this time she told us. what do you make of her comment that we've had enough bushes? >> i love her. i love her for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is when i ran for mayor in 1989 and i was an underdog she helped persuade president bush to come and do a fund-raiser for me and she's been my heroine ever since. she probably wants to spare her son from people who run for president and if they get elect what had they go through.

from the history of the country it's great service. from the point of view of a mother and wife, she figures he could lead his life more peacefully if he doesn't become the president of the united states. >> but she's married to a guy -- thank you. that was the "god bless america" chorus. her husband thought being president was the honor of his life, he fought for it, waited for it and got it and i think george w. bush loved most of it until perhaps near the ending. why would she not want her son, supposedly the smart one in the family, to have that honor? >> who knows. it could have been an off-the-cuff comment. it could even have been a humorous comment knowing her. look, jeb is going to make a de -- jeb would be an excellent president. i've worked with jeb quite a bit, supported him when he ran for governor, supported me when i ran for governor. known jeb actually longer than i've known president bush, and

he would make an excellent president of the united states if he decides to run. you know how much goes into that, all the personal part that goes into it, so who knows what he's going to do. >> yeah, i do. let me ask you before you go, want to ask you one question about the nature of the republican president. i think you ran a great campaign and very much a hawk with the war and with the whole national security agenda. you fit in with that and didn't fit in with some of the social policies. is the party bigger now than it was when you tried to run, could a guy like christie win sometime and could someone like you win next time or is it getting more narrow? >> all of that depends on how much we want to win. bill clinton is a product of the democratic party correcting itself after several failed candidates, you know, tried to defeat rage ray, tried to defeat george bush, democratic party decided to broaden and decided to move more to the center. that's what has to happen in my party. we have to decide that, you know, we have to -- we have to

be a little more reasonable on a couple of issues to have a broader reach, and the social issues are critical because they cut off a lot of the big states where the big electoral votes are. >> yeah. so you think you're growing or shrinking? >> pardon me? >> you think you're growing or shrinking as a part right now in. >> i think right now we're in a decision-making period. i don't think we know where we'll be until about a year from now. >> okay. >> it will depend a lot on the reaction of this president, and his performance, how republicans react to it, where we are a year from now probably -- will probably determine that. i would think -- i would think having been shut out of the presidency for so long we'd start to get more practical. >> okay. great to hear from you, mayor giuliani and a big day for you remembering all the good work that you've done as mayor of new york. thanks for coming on this big day. joining us here in dallas is david gregory, moderator of nbc's "meet the press" and