for your generosity. mother and laura, you know how i feel. connie introduced the world leaders with whom i had the privilege to serve, your good friends and i'm honored to have you here in the promised land. i want to welcome the members of congress, mr. speaker, appreciate you coming and the diplomatic corps, i know you'll all be happy to hear that this speech is a lot shorter than the state of the union. i thank the governors, governor of our own home state and other governors, mayors, state and local officials who have joined us. i welcome members of my cabinet, the white house staff and administration, especially vice president dick cheney. from the day i asked dick to run with me, he served with loyalty, principle and strength. proud to call you friend.

history is going to show that i served with great people. a talented, dedicated, intelligent team of men and women who love our nation as much as i do. i want to thank the people who made this project a success. president gerald turner runs a fantastic university. >> a university with active trustees, dedicated faculty and a student body that is awesome. i want to thank david fehr yoe, allen lowe at the professional archives administration who have taken on a major task and i am confident you all will handle

it. i appreciate the architects, landscapers and designers, especially bob stern, michael van valkenberg and dan murphy. i want to thank the folks of manhattan construction. as well as all the workers who built a fine facility that will stand the test of time. i thank the fantastic team at the george w. bush center, headed by mark langdale and jim glassman and my long-time pal, donny evans. much to the delight, much to the delight of the folks who worked on this project, we have raised enough money to pay our bills. >> we have -- we have over 300,000 contributors from all 50 states, and laura and i thank you from the bottom of our hearts.

this is the first time in american history that parents have seen their son's presidential library. mother, i promise to keep my area clean. barbara bush taught me to live life to the fullest, to laugh a lot and to speak my mind. a trait that sometimes got us both into trouble. dad taught me how to be a president. before that, he showed me how to be a man. and 41, it is awesome that you are here today. >> i welcome, i welcome my dear brothers and sister, as well as in-laws, cousins, nephews, nieces, uncles -- all of you for joining us. our family has meant more to me than anything, and i thank you for making it so. not so long ago, this campus was

home to a beautiful west texan named laura welch. when she earned her degree in library science, i'm not sure this day is exactly what she had in mind. she's been a source of strength and support and inspiration ever since we met in the o'neill's back yard in midland, texas. when the joys of the presidency was watching laura serve as first lady. the american people rightly love her. and so do i. laura is going to be even bet anywhere her next role -- grandmother. it was a joy, i can't tell you what a joy it was to hold little mila and i am really happy that mila's mother and father, jenna and henry, could make it here today. thank you all for coming. so if you don't have anything to

do in the morning, tune in to the "today"ed "today show," jenna is a correspondent, thereby continuing the warm relations the bush family has with the national press. and i'm really proud of barbara who is with us for her incredible work to serve others and to save lives. today marks a major milestone in a journey that began 20 years ago. when i announced my campaign for governor of texas. some of you were there that day. i mean a lot of you were there that day. i picture you looking a little younger. you probably picture me with a little less gray hair. in politics you learn who your real friends are. and our friends have stood with us every step of the way. and today's the day to give you

a proper thanks. and democracy, the purpose of public office is not to fulfill personal ambition. elected officials must serve a cause greater than themselves. the political winds blow left and right, polls rise and fall. supporters come and go. but in the end, leaders are defined by the convictions they hold. and my deepest conviction, the guiding principle of the administration, is that the united states of america must strive to expand the reach of freedom. i believe that freedom is a gift from god. and the hope of every human heart. freedom inspired our founders and preserved our union through civil war and secured the promise of civil rights.

freedom sustains dissidents bound by chains. believers huddled in underground churches. and voters who risk their lives to cast their ballots. freedom unleashes creativity, rewards innovation and replaces poverty with prosperity. and ultimately freedom lights the path to peace. freedom brings responsibility. independence from the state does not mean isolation from each other. a free society thrives when neighbors help neighbors and the strong protect the weak and public policies promote private compassion. as president, i tried to act on these principles every day. it wasn't always easy and it certainly wasn't always popular. one of the benefits of freedom is that people can disagree. it's fair to say i created plenty of opportunities to exercise that right. but when future generations come

to this library and study this administration, they're going to find out that we stayed true to our convictions. that we raised standards in schools and lowering taxes for everybody. that we liberated nations from dictatorship and freed people from aids. and when our freedom came under attack, we made the tough decisions required to keep the american people safe. those same principles define the mission of the presidential center. i'm retired from politics, happily so, i might add. but not from public service. we'll use our influence to help more children start life with a quality education. to help more americans find jobs and economic opportunity.

to help more countries overcome poverty and disease. to help more people in every part of the world. we'll work to empower women around the world to transform their countries. stand behind the courageous men and women who have stepped forward to wear the uniform of the united states. to defend our flag. and our freedoms here at home. ultimately, the success of a nation depends on the character of its citizens. as president, i had the privilege to see that character up close. i saw it in the first responders, who charged up the stairs into the flames. to save people's lives from burning towers. i saw in the virginia tech professor, who barricaded his classroom door with his body, until his students escaped to safety. i saw it in the people of new orleans who made home-made boats to rescue their neighbors from the floods. i saw it in the service members,

who laid down their lives to keep our country safe and to make other nations free. franklin roosevelt once described the dedication of a library as an act of faith. i dedicate this library with unshakeable faith in the future of our country. as the honor of a lifetime to lead a country as brave and as noble as the united states. whatever challenges come before us, i will always believe our nation's best days lie ahead. god bless.

[ cheers and applause ] please stand for the national anthem, benediction and the retirement of colors. ♪ oh say can you see ♪ by the dawn's early light ♪ what so proudly we hailed ♪ at the twilight's last

gleaming ♪ ♪ whose broad stripes and bright stars ♪ ♪ through the perilous fight ♪ over ramparts we watched ♪ were so gallantly streaming ♪ and the rockets' red glare ♪ the bombs bursting in air ♪ gave proof through the night ♪ that our flag was still there ♪ ♪ oh say does that star-spangled banner yet wave ♪ ♪ over the land of the free ♪ and the home of the brave

captain stanley w. fournier, united states navy, will deliver the benediction. may we pray together. gracious god, today we acknowledge you work in the affairs of humankind and nations. our prayer is that we as a people will listen carefully, response appropriately, and live each day acutely aware of the need for your guidance. you grace us with men and women who lead, prompted by the power

of personal conviction to help shape our national conscience, and provide examples of extraordinary leadership. today, we gather to celebrate a marvelous occasion, establishing in this physical place, a living reflection on our national history. president bush and this presidential library establish his legacy. not only of stone and mortar, but of heart and soul. and serve as reminders that there are words that resonate in our national consciousness, words like "justice" "freedom" "liberty" "opportunity" "sacrifice." ideals not merely of our own making but of your creation as you implant in each of your clirld, these intrinsic values. grant this day, that the george w. bush presidential center will

forever help inform our national dialogue for good, and will always remind us that our nation and world's best hope for an incurably optimistic future requires nothing less than our very best human efforts. yet ultimately rest in your providence caver. we acknowledge that this spirit of freedom and opportunity we celebrate today is often in need of vigilant care, so we remember those who have married the ultimate sacrifice. and those who this very hour stand in harm's way, that you would assure them of your presence, our prayers, and the anticipation of a lasting peace. now we give thanks for all of those present today, who have in the past provided faithful national stewardship and grant to our leaders today, especially president obama, the gifts of wisdom, strength, and the encouragement of your care.

endow president bush, mrs. bush and their entire family with your blessings, and our eternal goodwill. and may you bless our nation and all of your creation. amen. >> thank you, stanley. ♪ ♪ we've been watching our msnbc special live coverage of the dedication snrm for the new george w. bush presidential center. i'm chris matthews, in dallas on campus of smu, southern methodist university. moments ago, we heard the former president himself, as well as

his father, george herbert walker bush, former presidents clinton and carter and president obama. president george w. bush said he made the decisions he did to make country safe, the moments that defined his presidency, 9/11 and katrina. the word he said mother than any other was freedom. repeating that over and over. the one word he did not utter was iraq. never heard it today. the president getting emotional as he wrapped up his speech. joining me here in dallas is david gregory, moderator of nbc's "meet the press." chuck todd, nbc's political director and host of msnbc's "the daily rundown." politico's jonathan martin. wane slater, senior political writer for "dallas morning news." and the author. book "bush's brain." and joining us is michael reagan and michael beschloss, you will hear from all of them now.

david, this was quite a day. i didn't expect it would go so well, but i think it has. >> i think it has gone well. there's an enormous amount of politeness at an event like this. we've talked about it. there is a common bond between these former presidents and current president, as president obama said. they're more like a support group than a club. because it reflects the fact that politics is one thing, governing and the presidency is hard. i think having covered president bush for eight years i'm willing to go out on a limb and say that i do believe he worries less about being loved, than most politicians. i think he has resigned himself to the fact that he will forever be controversial president, because he made very difficult decisions, very controversial decisions, he went very big in his response to 9/11. you say we didn't hear about iraq, iraq is not a separate part of the exhibit within this. it's all part of the response to terrorism. that's what was the basis of

criticism of president bush. in office and it will continue out of office. what he said today, chris, was, respect the fact that i'm a man of conviction, that i did the best i could and that i'm content to realize you may never do what i would have done. but at least come through here, see the information i dealt with and try to understand how i had to deal with a changing world, a changing country and felt the need to change the government. that's a message i took away from him as he addressed the crowd today. >> i agree as well. chuck, i think also, it was what you might call on basis, a soft sell today. he wasn't trying to change the minds of anybody who watched today. >> that's been the whole purpose of the library. i'm still struck and you know, people may go through it and say, okay, president bush is not presenting both sides of the argument. but simply confronting the fact that he knows that two of his big decisions were very controversial. how he handled katrina and iraq. and he makes them a centerpiece.

>> explain the katrina controversy. >> how he handled it. when should the federal government have gotten involved. how of course, a lot of it was bedside manner. i've always thought it was less about when did the federal money, to ship all this stuff, it was frankly -- >> it was a missed opportunity. >> it was exactly sort and it changed the way this president and frankly president bush from then on, how i think how all presidents will react to any natural disaster. it's almost sometimes you're wondering, z, is it too much? but nobody ever wants to look like they're not doing enough. >> so in a way, he painted the portrait of what president obama and governor christie had to do. get on the ground and be there. >> maybe overdo it, call christie 500 times if you have to. but it is sort of you got to admire the fact that he puts it out there and he sort of acknowledging go in there and i made these decisions, you don't like them, they're unpopular, but here's why i made them and

puts it out there. it's different from what you see. >> let's talk about the president right now. jonathan, in many ways we all talk about this. in fact we did earlier today, how each presidency is is a function of the one who came before. if one president isn't too intellectual, we go with a more intellectual one. if one's too slick, we go to less slick, jimmy carter. so in a way, the president had to talk to his prepredecessor, in a 180, had to define him. >> what i think is the political take-away from today is what president obama said about immigration reform. president obama -- used a ceremonial event that is filled with pomp and history and he got down for a couple of sentences -- >> for a little bit. >> and made a sale about, immigration reform and took his hat off and said, if they do get it done, president bush will get some of the credit.

>> how does that help obama? >> because it's heeasier sell f the house. >> these presidents are so different, what's so fascinating that what stood out from the obama speech is where they actually have something in common. i think putting aside everything up on the stage, the big news from today is barbara bush. it was not only her comments this morning on the "today show," it was not only about her son, jeb not running, it was about dynasties in general. >> do you think that jeb wanted his mother to say, we've had enough of the bushes? >> of course not. >> he wants to keep the option open. >> apparently his reaction to another network, priceless, asked about his mom's comments. >> it reminds me of when richard nixon had to deal with when ike eisenhower said give me to weeks and i'll think of something that scott did for me. wayne slater, you're part of the home team, ha do you think? >> if i can follow the step back

as americans. you watched bill clinton make speech, a lot about clinton. but anyway, a wonderfully -- gracious speech. and i could remember being on the airplane, as we all were, day after day in 2000, where george bush would end every single speech with when i take the oath of office and put my hand on the bible, i pledge to return integrity and honor to the white house. here we are, in this marvelous succession process in which in this great country, where the line of succession is able to find those things, i think honestly in most cases, that are good, to be said. the other thing is -- >> they don't explain the daisy chain that led them there. they don't explain why they're there because the other guy misbehave and can take credit for it and run against it. >> what's interesting is that you have obama in between two dynasties, clinton and the bush dynasty. >> we have ron reagan joining us, ron, you weren't there between trisha and susan ford,

you could have come trooping out there, it would have been great. ron? >> well, i couldn't make it all the way to texas. >> didn't you get the invitation? that's too bad, i think you would have fit ryan right in with lynda bird and lucy baines. obviously your dad was the missing great man here. easily, the great man of this group. >> well i'm sure he would have enjoyed being there, if he could have been. but of course that's not, not possible. it's interesting to watch these things. this is as i think bill clinton or maybe it was barack obama mentioned, a very, very small club. of former presidents here. and george w. bush belongs to an even smaller club, if you will, since the beginning of the 20th century, if i've got my history right and michael might correct me, there have only been half a dozen presidents, a half a dozen since the beginning of the 20th century who have been elected to and served out two full

consecutive terms. george w. bush is in some pretty august company there, franklin roosevelt, ronald reagan, eisenhower, woodrow wilson, people like that. you feel the history in this moment. but it must be said as well, that these libraries certainly starting with president nixon also serve as a venue to rehabilitate the presidents. and this president of course has a lot to rehabilitate. so we will see how that, how that plays out in the library. i haven't visited it myself. so i can't comment. >> well they all have their own personalities, your dad's library is so debonair, so movie cowboy western. it fits him so perfectly. the nixon library has the morton quality, the harry truman library has the stoic midwestern thing going. they all represent very well the presidents. we'll take a station break and come back for more. looking at this interesting historic day. rahhhhhh!

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it's just another way you'll be traveling at the speed of hertz. we have a look at some of the comments by the former presidents, interesting comments. >> thank you all very much. what a beautiful day in dallas. it's a great pleasure to be here. and to honor our oldest son. and this is very special for barbara and me. and thank you all for coming. and to all of those who made this marvelous museum possible, we thank you, especially and we're glad to be here. god bless america and thank you very much. >> i told president obama that this was the latest, grandest example of the eternal struggle

of former presidents to rewrite history. and i want to -- take my hat off to president bush, this is a beautiful library. >> first thing i found in that desk the day i took office was a letter from george. and one that demonstrated his compassion and his generosity. for he knew that i would come to learn what he had learned. that being president above all is a humbling job. there are moments where you make mistakes. >> the political winds blow left and right. polls rise and fall. supporters come and go. but in the end, leaders are defined by the convictions they hold. and my deepest conviction, the guiding principle of the administration, is that the united states of america must

strive to expand the reach of freedom. >> so we've just watched actually almost four decades of american history through the words of the presidents of those eras, starting with jimmy carter back in 1977. through to 2013. these are the presidents with exception of president reagan who passed away and we just heard from his son. it's been quite a panoply of words and an expression of the bipartisan spirit. everyone tried mightily not to go to the problem areas, not to talk about iraq. the word wasn't mentioned, not one time. it was the 800-pound gorilla in the room or elephant. it wasn't mentioned out of courtesy, i think. they didn't want to bring up the strongest irritant on one side of the political spectrum, perhaps embarrassment on the other. what, but nobody wants to talk about iraq on a day like today. but it was a spirit, i have to tell you, my fondest moment will be if i can watch it over and over again, would be the

chatting between the president, barack obama, and the grand sort of first mum, barbara bush. the tough cookie that she is, saying exactly what she thinks and him trying to pick up on some wisdom there. that conversation is a piece of work and i don't know anybody who wouldn't like to have well "mother jones" or somebody give us the recording of what was really going on there. because they have a way. don't they? let me go to michael beschloss, that is a charming scene. there's another picture of bill and hillary clinton. what did you make of that, michael? >> president obama talking to barbara bush? >> yeah. were you watching that? >> i sure was. and i agree with you totally, you know, these moments are the ones that these ceremonies are usually remembered for. not for the speeches. and you know, you were talking about the impact that these presidential libraries have on history. you're absolutely right. george bush says it's going to take 50 years, which i think is probably right, before historians begin to agree on

him. and the library begins to start that process. because the president moves from politics into history. but it's not the ceremony, it's not the exhibits, but documents and sources begin to open so that people can see a president in a different way. and if i might say, if there's one thing i think the bush people are probably hoping for, from scholars, maybe a half century from now, it would probably be that when they see that kind of stuff that george w. bush was seeing behind the scenes, that scholars might say it was a lot tougher than we thought to keep this nation safe for seven years after 2001 and george bush did that very well. that's, i think, what they're hoping for. >> well, let's hope, i think the way that would have to work, however, is not through documentary evidence or even or k archival work, as something that would happen in iraq. let's bring in alex, alex, i have to tell you as a political person like myself, you must have been watching hillary

clinton there. surrounded by the people that she might like to be like at some point. and yet, i kept thinking, she's lived through most of the history that those guys represent. she's been there as well as being a potential candidate to be president of the united states, perhaps 12 years from now. these are extraordinary decisions, there's one big one, i should say, that she has to make. is she content with being part of the history she's been through, first lady, secretary of state, senator from new york. all the way back to arkansas and the long history she had with her husband there. and then go almost replicating that going forward. this is an astounding leap of faith she's going to have to sma make it seems, no matter what anybody else says. >> to be thinking about the answers to those questions as we are talking about the legacy of george w. bush, you know, as president bush himself said no president wants to rush to war. he didn't want to be a war-time president. i think it really draws into sharp focus the challenges of the presidency.

and the challenges of maintaining a legacy. bill clinton was up there and you got a sense that he might end up up speaking longer than george w. bush. this guy loves returning to the national spotlight. but hillary is a different person quite obviously and she's a different kind of political animal and i think there were probably a lot of lessons, at least thought about, if not learned today. i thought it was phenomenal that we heard the word "awesome" more than we heard the word out of "iraq." the closest woo he got to an acknowledgement of mistakes made during the bush administration was when president obama echoed that presidents do make mistakes. i thought this was an interesting kind of weird moment in terms of the american presidency. all of these presidents up there, not acknowledging what was, i mean -- the thing that defined george w. bush's legacy and changed america's trajectory, which of course is the wars in the middle east. >> let's bring in joy reid, you

haven't been on, can't wait to hear what you have to say about today. why be anything else today but positive. your thoughts? >> you said a moment ago, chris, the word "courtesy." and the other word that i wrote down just in response to this was "generosity." these were very obvious generous presentations, i think it's extraordinary that approximately one-nibt of t one-ninth of the men who have ever been president were standing on the stage together. that in itself is very extraordinary. this is the warmest glow that will ever be shined on the bush presidency. everyone was there to be generous. i think it's the wont of most people to be decent in a moment like this. whether or not you disagreed with his policies or with him. this is the moment he wants to burnish his legacy. the problem for bush obviously comes after today. it comes when a more cold-eyed assessment of him begins that is

what history is there to do. historians have been very harsh on the bush presidency. the siena college poll in 2006. two-thirds of historians judging it to be a failure. but that's not what people are going to do today. today george w. bush gets to bask in the glow of being a former president. >> just do offer an opinion here, i've been holding them back -- i think if this president, george w. bush, was happy with the way iraq turned out, you would have seen a lot more prominence of dick cheney today. >> that's true. >> dick cheney was not hardly mentioned, except in a throw-away line. because i think this president has really thought through and deliberated the decisions that led us into war with iraq and i'm not sure he's told us his full thinking of that subject yet. and i hope to get that as part of the historic record. just getting now to breaking news. in regards syria. of course and defense secretary chuck hagel spoke a few moments ago during his overseas trip to abu dhabi. he said that the united states has determined now, big

business, that the syrian regime has used chemical weapons in its civil war. specifically the chemical agent sarin. let's listen. >> the u.s. intelligence community assesses with some degree of varying confidence, that the syrian regime has used chemical weapons on a small scale in syria. >> well hagel couldn't say that the apparent use of chemical weapons crosses the a line set down by president obama. secretary of state john kerry told reporters at the capital today that there are two instances he knows of where the u.s. believes syria used chemical weapons. kerry added there will be a letter coming from senator john mccain's office, that will confirm that. but it won't specify how many times the weapons were used, chuck todd is with me now. this is is a big development. >> it is. the president has said, use the chemical weapons as a red line. >> does that mean we go in?

>> not yet. let me read you part of a letter thats white house has sent to congress on this issue. let me read part of it. it says this assessment is based in part on physiological samples. our standard of evidence must build on these intelligence assessments as we seek to establish credible and corroborated facts. for example, the chain of custody is not clear, so we cannot confirm how the exposure occurred and what conditions. precisely because the president takes the issue so seriously, we have an obligation to fully investigate any and all evidence of chemical weapons used in syria. we're currently pressing for a comprehensive united nations investigation that can credibly evaluate the evidence and establish what took place. you see what the president is calling for here. it's an establishment, basically getting the u.n. to confirm, getting the international body to confirm our own intelligence reports before the action. it's not said here. but it's implied before any action will be taking place about the red line.

so they want this white house wants some u.n.-backing up here. and i think before this debate starts about what is crossing the red line mean. what would that mean, is it u.s. troops, a way of securing, that's never been made clear exactly what it is that the united states would do. is it sending in troops to secure the chemical weapons? is it figuring out how to take them away. taking out assad? none of that is clear and at this point, what the white house is saying is we're not going to rush to judgment. let's get a second, let's get an international body to confirm what our intelligence is saying. >> this is really, where the tire hits the road, you've got israel insisting through netanyahu, the prime minister, that there was use of chemical weapons. and then you've got the administration saying through hagen and kerry. we're going to prove it ourself before we move any further and now we're going to a third party. >> we've proven it some and then the caveats, we don't know the chain of custody. we know it's been used, we believe it's the syrian regime that's used it.

and now what they're saying is we want the full-fledged investigation by the united nations. other people are going do say is that buying time? but i think at this point when you consider what the action would mean, us inserting ourselves into a civil war, no matter what, having an international body supporting your finding, is probably a lot more helpful. >> howard fineman, does this mean we take the first step, do you think towards a no-fly situation? a no-fly zone. >> chris, let's step back and realize that this news is breaking, it precisely the time we're talking about the decisions that george w. bush faithfully had to make during his presidency. a lot of presidents think he made in the wrong direction, as regards iraq. i mean you couldn't come up with a more excruciating example of the challenges that presidents face in exactly what's at issue, behind all the happy talk at this pageantry of the bush presidency. as you said, the word "iraq" was

never mentioned, and yet, george bush in his speech, i think gave a philosophical defense, if not by name, but by philosophy, of why he thought it was justified to go to iraq and change the regime there. now this president, president obama, is faced in some respects with a similar kind of situation. again, the middle east, again an authoritarian regime, again, weapons of mass destruction. again the vision of freedom in the region. and change in the middle east. how does this president respond when faced in some respects with the sort of cousin of the decision that george w. bush was faced with a decade ago? it's an amazing, but in some ways very appropriate on this day, reminder of the world that we live in and the challenges that presidents face. it's just amazing, really. >> yes, howard, but i don't think we're talking about an invasion and occupation. >> i'm not saying, no, exactly. of course not. that's my point.

i think it's a different situation. i think that the response -- >> also we're talking about a president who doesn't -- >> okay. i think there's a big difference, i think we have a president who doesn't want to invade. and in george w. bush we had one who did. >> that's my point. >> thank you. let's go to david gregory, your thoughts on this big development at the white house. >> chris, as i've talked to republicans over the past couple of weeks, about this very issue, this is what they think is the key element. chemical weapons that the assad regime has. if there's going to be any kind of international force marshalled short, short of u.s. boots on the ground and that's critically important, because even republican hawks acknowledge that that is not going to happen. but can there be some international action. and as chuck referred to, perhaps the united nations under those auspices that it starts. that can try to secure the weapons. even if assad is still in power. i think that's an area of the

story that will have to be watched very closely. president obama is now on record saying there is a red line here. and the evidence may be discussed and is going to be analyzed as to whether they've crossed that red line. but now president obama is getting closer to facing the very difficult choice of how the u.s. can and should influence the end game in syria. and so i think that's what's immediately pressing here. and yes, the parallels are quite striking. but the lessons of iraq are going to be playing out here in the very moments that we digest all of this. as lawmakers and the administration go through this information. >> there will be two key players here, chris, russia and china. and you involve the u.n., that's one thing. they've been the ones, particularly russia, preventing a full-fledged international push to get rid of assad. does, can the united states bring enough evidence, because i've also talked to someone who said it's a nuxtd investigation, or if we find an even harder

evidence, can this evidence convince putin give it up. stop, it's time to get rid of your ally here in assad, help us do this. again, you know, this president, president obama is not going to move without some international community behind him. we saw how libya worked. it isn't going to be unilateral in this case. so the question now, use this as an attempt to finally get the russians on board with this. >> is it your sense, based on the letter that the president is concerned about whether it was in fact the regime of assad. that used the chemical weapons? >> they want to be 100% sure. >> who else could have used it? >> did somebody steal those weapons? did somebody steal it and it was used in some other way. do they know for sure that it was assad, they just, again, they had the phrase, they haven't established the chain of custody. they believe the syrian regime did it. they believe it was on assad's side. they do not believe that somehow the rebels in this case, are using it.

but they just, they, this is one of those, they got to have all eyes dotted and ts crossed before they do anything. >> let's go to ayman mohyeldin, who is in new york, thanks for joining us. is this the same kind of gas that assad's father used back in the bad old days? >> well you know, that's a good question. but it's very difficult to ascertain that right now because we simply don't know the nature of the chemicals that were used. obviously the syrian regime has a host of weapons as we understand, including nerve gas, mustard gas, sarin gas. and in the past we've heard from syrian rebels say the regime used the concentrated teargas. nonetheless, it didn't necessarily cause the mass killings that we've seen used previously, including in places like iraq. so it's still a little bit early. i think it will depend on the intelligence assessment by the united states and other

countries. >> is there a sense that assad knows that if he did resort, this is speculation, but close to what we think is happening. did he know in resorting to chemical weapons, that he would bring an international response? >> there's no doubt that the u.s. has made very clear that the u.s. of chemical weapons would be a game-changer, crossing the red line. and also to some extent the russians have said that using chemical weapons would be a game-changer. the question though, is did the assad regime use these weapons through the chain of command? or was this some rogue element within the military or some of the militias that have close access to the military, get their hands on chemical weapons and use it? and that's still not yet clear. we know that the syrian government in the past publicly has said it would not use chemical weapons on its own people, that it would not resort to that type of weaponry, unless it was attacked by foreign powers. and the important thing is, the delivery system. how were these chemical weapons delivered. was this a one-off?

was this a battalion, or you know, a more structured unit within the military that delivered this chemical weapon? i think the answers to those questions still have not been answered publicly. so to know whether or not the regime and whether or not specifically president bashar al assad gave an explicit order to use chemical weapons remains somewhat uncertain. i think that's going to be a very important test for the obama administration in determining or assessing what its next steps will be. >> thank you, hang on there let me go to alex wagner about the politics of this. having watched john mccain, having watched lindsay graham and the other hawks, if you will, they'll be glad to have that title, the way they approach this is, if there's a good percentage chance that this is a problem, we act. and i just wonder whether they will give obama the freedom to weigh the evidence before they begin to pressure him now. >> i, i don't know if i think the time may have passed, chris, let's keep in mind the context here there are estimated to have been 70,000 people who have been

killed in the last year in syria over this conflict. there's been a human toll that is staggering. you look at what, how cautious president obama has been in other conflicts in the middle east, libya egypt, being very, very, making concerted effort as to when to get in. a very considered effort. he's been using this time, in some ways you know, the red line is the red line. but that in some ways was buying some time for him to figure out how to get involved. we don't know where the arms, if we put arms in militants' hands, who do we put them in? there's so many questions around the plan regarding u.s. involvement in syria. i think at the same time, you look at the number of casualties here, and to do nothing i think is, is, is something that the president doesn't think he can do. in other words, this can't be a rwanda for him. the death toll alone, i think will, will push him into action. and especially now that we know or we believe that chemical weapons have been used. >> howard, your thoughts,

because you know, as well as i do. that this president is there largely because people didn't like iraq. >> right. >> they didn't like us getting involved in two countries, afghanistan and iraq. it looked like we were in that direction generally. and now he's sort of posed himself as the alternative to that policy. >> right, and that's why i was saying earlier, chris, you can't make up these moments in history. they happen in the most vivid and unexpected fashion. here, the unstated point in the ceremony today, the one at the bush library, that everybody was talking around and not dealing with directly, and even george bush dealt with only philosophically was the war in iraq. and you're right -- what put barack obama on the path to the presidency, was the speech that he gave in 2002 in chicago, saying that the war in iraq would be a mistake. he said it in advance. most fair-minded analyst was agree with him. now here's the president of the

united states, sitting on that platform, watching his predecessor try to justify obliquely, his own decision-making, his decision-making. meanwhile the president himself knows and he had been briefed this morning about this, there was news about this this morning, about syria and chemical weapons. the president sitting there thinking, what can i learn from george w. bush? what can i learn from the mistakes of the past? what can i learn from his presidency, as i go forward in this jangled and confused middle east? how much of american blood and treasure do we commit? how deeply do we get involved? what can i learn from bush, how do i deal with it going forward. and you're right, history has now presented barack obama with some very tough decisions that have been amplified and made more complex by the president who proceeded him. >> one thing we learn from history, it's a lot easier to get into a war than get out of one. let me go it a new

development. to everybody listening. we've got a senior, hot source here, confirmed senior law enforcement officials tell nbc news that the boston marathon bombers discussed coming to new york and for the purpose of detonating the balance of the explosives they had right there in times square. chuck? >> the question this is coming during interrogation of him. i think some of this information is coming after he's been read his miranda rights, toor what it's worth. we can set that aside. we know that is the case, these guys keep talking. there's been some confused reporting on this. initially he said oh, they were just headed to new york to party. now he says they were discussing the idea of doing something. >> taking the bombs with them. >> in times square, and remember, they did have all of these bombs with them. they were throwing bombs at the law enforcement during that shoot-out on thursday. >> i think that's the best argument that they were up to more trouble. let me go to jonathan dienst, who broke the story for nbc. how do you know this?

>> our best have understanding is that this was only aspirat n aspirational. based on the debriefing that they're doing of the surviving terror suspect, dzhokhar tsarnaev. that he was claim, first he claimed that they wanted to new york to party. but under continuing interrogation, it now appears that they did discuss aspiration about coming to new york to hit times square perhaps set off the rest of the explosions. but again, there's nothing to indicate they ever did any sort of scouting. it was on the fly conversation as described to us. and that there's nothing to indicate there was any specific threat to new york. at that time. and that this is coming out of the debriefings, the questioning that investigators had done of that suspect. yesterday, police commissioner kelly was quite clear that there was no threat to new york. and that his understanding, his best information yesterday was that it was sort of a social visit and that there was no talk about striking new york. now new information has come in

here to new york. that, yes, perhaps they did discuss talk about the idea of coming to new york to strike at times square. aspirational at best, at most. >> david gregory, thanks for being with us. you have to study, not just the news you develop, you have to understand always the gravity of this. you know how new york, resonates, the very notion of coming to new york, to blow up anything is going to become a powder keg of a story now. >> well, it is because it just speaks to the larger plots. i don't know if jonathan is still with us. it's not clear to me, whether this information came at what point during the questioning. that will get sorted out. but look, this is part of what they initially wanted to as tags. which is what were the larger goals and as pete williams has been saying in his reporting from the very beginning, a key area for investigators who is who else was involved to help them develop not just the planning, but the expertise to be able to pull off a

larger-scale bombing or plan of maylem. i mean what's quite clear is they hadn't thought about the end game very clearly once the images were made public. and now this is, this is new information about their whether there were delusions of grandeur, whether they had the ability to pull it off. >> chuck, let's get back to you about mindset. it is obviously curious, did they have any plan? we don't know if they had any sort of future, forward-looking plan about how to get away with these bombings, it was almost like bonnie and clyde or something, we're going to wreak mayhem out there. do a lot of this stuff and somehow come to an end? >> i think a lot of this information also comes from that wild car chase and shooting. you got to remember they carjacked that one man. and a lot of this first generated because he was able to escape and call police. and during his debriefing he says he thought he heard the suspects talking about manhattan, about new york. but they were speaking in a

foreign language and he kept hearing manhattan, new york. and he relaid that to investigators. and that's what prompted them to do this conversation. one thing that needs to be clarified. as explained to me, this information was the result of the pre-miranda debriefings, so i don't know what the disconnect or the delay is in terms of information coming down or information sharing that at first the information here in new york was they were just coming here to party and now there was concern there was some sort of conversation where they may have contemplated wanting to come to new york. but again it was all talk. no indication that there was any sort of planning or scouting of new york city done. although we do know the younger brother was here in new york at least once. perhaps twice in the last year. one for a thanksgiving time visit where he's pictured in times square. and another for some sort of mock u.n. type seminar. so those are two trips that we

believe we know he took previously, but again important to stress, no specific threat to new york. as were you explaining, chris, any time new york comes up, the attempted car bombing in times square, the city has seen about 15 alleged plots and plots targeting the city since 9/11. so any time new york gets mentioned as a possible target, it's of great concern. >> you know, i have to wonder, this isn't meant to be comical, but how many days can you live in new york on $800? they were going to atm machines holding them up with people there as hostages, threatening their lives if they didn't give them their code numbers. but that may have been the only evidence we have of an ongoing plot. they were stealing money from people. to do what? do we know that? >> i don't know, you know the motive of the theft for money and it's also important to put into context, as david gregory was explaining, is this is the word of an accused terror suspect.

and this is what he is saying in his debriefings, and investigators now have to run around and run all of this down. to see if what he's telling them is true. he claims that they did not have any help from any overseas radicals or groups. they need to run that down. did they in fact discuss coming to new york? all you have is the carjacking victim who didn't understand the language he was hearing of the two suspects, but he thought he heard new york and manhattan and now they've done this debriefing where he claims yeah, we talked about wanting to come to new york to hopefully try something. but no specific plot and do you have to take these terror suspects at their word. if they say they want to do something, you have to treat everything they say very seriously, that's why we're seeing this massive investigation, not only here from boston to new york, to overseas and russia. >> well it's been quite a day, thank you very much, chuck. chuck, the president's got a lot on his plate today, foreign and domestic -- >> he's headed to waco right now for the memorial service for that tragedy. >> and the syrian question and

the ongoing story about domestic terrorism. david gregory thank you so much for joining us, moderator of "meet the press." we've got a lot of breaking news right here, stay with msnbc. for all the latest developments in syria and the boston bombings, they will be covered through the afternoon. i'm chris matthews, thank you for joining us for this very special coverage of the dedication of the george w. bush presidential center and thanks to all of our guests who been part of our coverage. i'll see you tonight for a special edition of "hardball" from this spot, live from the site of the library in dallas and we'll be back at 7:00 p.m. eastern. stay tuned for "andrea mitchell reports," her reports coming up now next here on misbs.

right now on "andrea mitchell reports," the president's' club. all the living presidents, current and past gathering in texas, dedicating the george w. bush presidential center. >> we also know something about george bush the leader. as we walk through this library obviously we're reminded of the incredible strength and resolve that came through that bullhorn as he stood amid the rubble and the ruins of ground zero. >> mr. president, let me say that i'm filled with admiration for you, and deep gratitude for you, about the great contributions you've made to the most needy people on earth. >> starting with my work with -- president george h.w. bush on the tsunami and the aftermath of katrina, people began to joke