>> david, you would think that your book "hubris" would have taught everything they need to know about this, but they have more reading to do. david corn, thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> my pleasure. >> up next, "hardball" with chris matthews. >> we're talking about going to new york and exploding their bombs in times square, we'll have that in a moment.

meanwhile, here in dallas, texas, for you as presidents teamed up to dedicate their presidents. today was a day of emotional good will for george bush, but the biggest moment, barbara bush making clear her assessment of a presidential run by son, jeb, in 2016. >> it is not just for families or whatever. there are other people out there that are very qualified. we have had enough bushes. >> we have had enough bushes, but we start with news in the boston marathon bombing case, pete williams joins us from washington, pete, this is big news in the sense it looks like we can at least understand vaguely what the suspects had vaguely in mind for their future? >> i think two vagus is correct here, chris, because what the authorities say, both the police commissioner in new york a and the mayor and the officials we've talked with is that this is -- remember, these are two

people that the fbi says really had no escape plan. they really didn't seem to know what they were going to do after the pictures were shown on thursday night. friday, they hijack an suv. and he says while they were driving around they say they suddenly came up with the idea in the car as they were driving perhaps going to times square and detonating some of the six or seven bombs that they had left in the car. they had one of their pressure cooker bombs and then a couple of pipe bombs. and then of course, they ended up throwing the pressure cooker bomb at the police when they stopped them in watertown. and whatever plans they had went completely out the window. one of them was dead, the other on the run. >> well, here is the police commissioner with mayor bloomberg this afternoon. >> we learned through the joint terrorist task force that the boston marathon bombers had

planned to travel to manhattan to deatonate the remaining bomb in times square. dzhokhar tsarnaev, said after the bombings they would go the new york city to party. however, subsequent questioning of dzhokhar revealed that he and his brother decided spontaneously on times square as a target. >> well, there we have it. it seems like -- pete, you're the expert, it didn't just come from the person who was hijacked and had to give his atm money across, but also it came from the interviews with dzhokhar. >> yes, that is the key to it. is the interview with the bombing suspect. and he says that he -- he says what the point is they came up with it on the spot. that when the police

commissioner says they planned, you know, the only planning was starting to talk about it right there in the car. >> well, let's talk about what we know about the miranda rights, as a civilian, it seems like it wouldn't change the person around. before we get to mike rogers, a critic, on the way it was handled before we -- given the condition the suspect is in right now, less likely to talk than before they're given them? >> it happens that way sometimes, but it also happens the other way. it has happened in terrorism cases, for example, the underwear bomber, was given the miranda warning, then resumed talking, blurting out everything, the way he was trained, names, dates, this has happened in other terrorism cases, as well. we know they were talking to

him. basically they had two sessions, we learned some of this from the police commissioner in new york. the first session didn't go so well. he was still coming out of it from his treatment. the second one went better. and then the judge comes in on monday and reads him his rights. now, of course, he has a lawyer and of course he has stopped talking. the question is will he resume again? sometimes in these cases they do, sometimes they don't. so we have to wait and see whether the lawyer says you know, it is in your best interest to keep talking. you could save yourself from the death penalty. >> i see, well, thank you so much. pete williams for that, as always. anyway, jim cavanaugh is an -- what do you make from this? they were still on the loose, still terrorists, still active, at the time one was picked up in bad condition. and then of course that would

allow the authorities to question him all they wanted before giving him the miranda rights. >> right, chris, exactly, they have been giving people miranda for almost four decades. it doesn't make them all shut up. but there was a public safety exception and the agents used it for two days. really what happened, the magistrate showed up at the hospital. and with him was the assistant u.s. attorney and federal public defenders. you know, if you cannot afford a lawyer, the guy who does that is the judge at your initial appearance. this was not an initial appearance in the federal court system. so here was i'm going to appoint you a lawyer and here is the lawyer standing next to you. so it is more than a miranda, a lawyer, he can't afford a lawyer, here is your lawyer. he is not going to talk after he has a lawyer. the lawyer is going to advise him not to. that is a miranda issue. as far as what pete said, he is

a little vague. two things can be right here. because look, these guys had a pressure cooker bomb, let's just take that bomb that they threw at the watertown police. they didn't buy the components for that bomb, chris. between the time their pictures were released on thursday night at 5:00, and the time they killed brian collier at the m.i.t. police, they didn't buy the components and likely didn't build it there. it was already built. so they already had this pressure cooker bomb, chris, they were not going to sell it on ebay. they were going to detonate it somewhere, they certainly were planning on doing that somewhere o -- >> sounds like you agree. here is the house committee chair, mike rogers, a republican. he is hearing the interrogation

of dzhokhar, was still going on when the court mirandized him. this is the knock on the way the case was handled by the obama administration. mike rogers. >> we can't have in a case like this, the judiciary deciding because it is on tv and it may look bad for them to allow the public safety exemption that is deemed legal by the united states supreme court that they were going to somehow intercede in this. it is confusing, horrible, god-awful policy and dangerous to the greater community. and we've got to get to the bottom of it and fix it right now. >> jim, do you agree with that? the argument by the congressman, the chairman committee, basically making the case. look, this guy is a dangerous fugitive, we picked him up. we know he is still in the process of committing crimes. we interview him, then we get around to getting him mirandized, here he said the judge showed up out of nowhere

and basically stopped the interrogation, does that sound to you to be bad justice? bad law enforcement? >> well, we get right into, chris, the greatest things of our democracy, three branches of government. i have never had a judge come to an initial appearance like that. i've had them come out at night if we needed it on an injured person or called them. but the normal course of business is, the law enforcement agents bring the defendant or ask the judge to come if the defendant was hospitalized, to conduct an initial appearance because they have arrested the person. if the judge decided to call the assistant u.s. attorney and the federal public defender and say we're going here because i feel this person needs counsel, and it is more to miranda -- it is counsel as well. because once you get counsel now, your attorney is going to shut you up. >> yeah. >> so that could have happened. we don't exactly know. the u.s. attorney's office could have asked the judge to go. we don't have those facts. and miranda doesn't always shut people up. they can still waive the right

and he can still talk too, because his lawyer can allow him to talk for some deal. so it can still happen. >> boy, this is getting murky, simple way i can put it, we had an interrogation, out of nowhere comes a judge, stops the interview and the information-gathering. we'll see who had the right to do this. if they still have the right as looked at by the other courts. anyway, thank you, jim cavanaugh. and coming up, what an amazing day as five presidents come together to dedicate the presidential library. and lead it to former first lady barbara bush, saying her son should not run for president. saying we have had enough bushes. whoa, mom, you're taking over this thing. and later, syria, the u.s. intelligence says that the syrian regime used chemical weapons.

something that president obama said would be a game-changer. the white house wants more time to get the facts straight before it takes action. finally, where partisanship took a back seat for pleasantries. and this is hardball, the place for politics.

exemplar, exemp . rhode island on the verge of becoming the tenth state to recognize same-sex marriage. it is expected to clear the state house and be signed into law by governor lincoln chaffey next week. by the way, the french parliament approved the same-sex marriage, making france the 14th country to do so. we'll be right back. [ horn honks ]

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>> supporters come and go. but in the end leaders are defined by the convictions they hold. and my deepest conviction, the guiding principle of the administration is that the united states of america must strive to expand the reach of freedom. i believe that freedom is a gift from god. and the hope of every human heart. >> welcome back to "hardball," be as i said today was most definitely a day in the sun for george bush as he was joined by all the living presidents at the library today. it was an emotional day for the

family. let's watch presidents bush 41 and 43. >> honor or oldest son, and this is very special for barbara and me. and thank you all for coming. and to all of those who made this marvelous museum possibly, we thank you, and we're glad to be here. god bless america and thank you very much. >> i dedicate this library with unshakeable faith in the future of our country. it was the honor of a lifetime to lead a country as brave and as noble as the united states. whatever challenges come before us, i will always believe our nation's best days lie ahead. god bless. >> well, joining me right now is msnbc chief white house correspondent chuck todd, also of "daily run down."

i thought there were great moments today. i thought all of us would love to have our spouse talk about us the way laura bush talked about her husband. that is a guy. >> president bush met the moment. you just felt like they understood what today meant. you set aside the political debate. president obama, i thought captured. i thought he did an excellent job of -- of honoring president bush. you know, some of the other speeches, president carter and clinton, personalized it and brought themselves into it. what made president obama stand out is that he really did sort of -- 90 percent of the remarks -- >> i talked to one correspondent, he said he was really struck by president obama's graciousness, that he went beyond.

>> they didn't have a low bar. >> he praised president bush not just a man, but as a leader, too. and he saluted him on the very issues that george and laura bush want him to be remembered for. aids in africa, response after 9/11. education reform. the compassionate conservative. >> so all the liberal things. >> he does -- all of this hammering going on inside the republican party, and the way i've been thinking about this day and bush and his legacy. and look, there is iraq, he will never escape iraq. >> not mentioned. >> he will never escape it. lbj will never escape vietnam, and bush will never escape iraq. but when you think about what the republican party is in search of, they're desperate for a man who ran in 2000, who was a passionate conservative. who tried to reach out. frankly downplay conservative

issues, still talk about them, put them in another place. it is sort of this entry -- on one hand they didn't want to talk about the bush brand, and yet they wish they had a bush-like candidate for 2000. >> bill clinton figured out the bush campaign early on in 1999. bill clinton said the campaign consisted of everything you like about the current administration and plus you get a tax cut. that was the description of what bush was running on. clinton saw it early. >> except he didn't mention martial stability. >> they didn't bs the whole day, they picked out what they did like. they cherry-picked. also, the two-party system, we talk about policy analysis. it really comes down to each party taking eight years to think about how they can exploit the shortcomings and come back into power with it. he said me and laura, really

steady, jimmy carter was clean as a whistle but didn't know a lot of stuff. then reagan comes along, says carter is a wuss, always knocking the guy in there, here they come out today, hold hands, they love each other. but each depended on their personal success, punching the other guy in his bad eye. >> that is politics. >> here is clinton and obama, paying tribute to the recent president, let's listen. >> i like president bush. and we do a lot of speeches together. and i like it when we have disagreements. he is disarmingly direct. we were having an argument over health care in one of these speeches and i went on about the german health care system. and he said i don't know a a thing about the german health care system. i think he probably won the argument. >> what president clinton is absolutely true. to know the man is to like the man because he is comfortable in

his own skin. he knows who he is, doesn't put on any pretenses. >> as his victory statement, he was like, i don't know anymore than you did about these things. president obama has his shortcomings, too. do we want an intellectual president? we got one in bush, sort of -- in clinton and obama. >> yeah. >> the country, i think, look, certainly responding to bush in 2008, if there is a bush rehabilitation effort, i think president obama helped the cause. >> ei'll tell you who didn't mae the cause, barbara. it reminded me of eisenhower,

saying give me two weeks, she said we have had enough of the bushes. >> these events are so scripted and so polite. and in the middle of all of this -- >> she is a great lady -- >> she is an unbelievable interview. but it was interesting to have president obama, the one piece of politics he decided to do was something actually in the best interest of the republican party, particularly here in texas. which is the largest republican crowd the president has ever addressed. and he used it. and almost said hey, this immigration bill it is not my legacy, it is this man's legacy. now, there is a smart way to sell it. the politics in the house, still a little complicated. anyway, back to barbara. >> they are somewhat moneyed republicans -- >> country club republicans. this is actually what the tea

party has also been running against are these folks here. >> the last four years -- >> and these are pretty moderate republicans compared to the crazies. so bottom line, will it help the immigration bill get through? >> i think it was going to happen, because of the incentive on the republican party -- >> will it bring him out of retirement? >> i don't think bush will do it. >> i don't know, i think the bush brand is still uneasy. >> i think the president, i support him. i think rubio is the hero. i think the president should lead from behind. rubio is the winner. >> he has more juice in the congress. >> he has more juice with tea party conservatives, to maybe not win them over, just keep them from killing -- >> he is the essential man, thank you, chuck, we all agree on everything. chuck todd. we'll be right back after this.

>> back to "hardball," now to the side show, well today, dedication to the presidential library, the sense of unity was not lost on any of them. and today they all found humor in what ties them together. take a listen. >> i appreciate my fellow members of the former president's club. >> we have been called the world's most exclusive club and we do have a pretty nice clubhouse. >> this is very special for barbara and me, and thank you all for coming, we're glad to be here. god bless america and thank you very much. >> starting with my work with -- president george h.w. bush on the tsunami and the aftermath of

katrina, people began to joke that i was getting so close to the bush family that i had become the black sheep son. my mother told me not to talk too long today. and barbara, i will not let you down. >> well, it is a great honor for me to be here today. and it reminds me of my favorite cartoon in a new yorker magazine. this little boy is looking up at his father. he says daddy, when i grow up i want to be a former president. >> this is the first time in american history that parents have seen their son's presidential library. mother, i promise to keep my area clean. >> now, in the past, president bush has said it is impossible to pass judgment on his presidency while he is still alive. so maybe this is a little bit premature, but even know we know there are certain things that are true. we know about the father who raised two remarkable caring beautiful daughters, even after

they tried to discourage him from running for president, saying dad you're not as cool as you think you are. mr. president, i can relate. >> so if you don't have anything to do in the morning, tune in to "the today show," jenna is a correspondent, thereby continuing the warm relations the bush family has with the press. >> well, the last time all five of the president's club was together was a meeting in 2009. but that was before the president was sworn in. they snapped this shot of the five living presidents and their wives. bill clinton, brand-new to the scene, sent out this today. there is one of just the first ladies attending. up next, a big decision for president obama. the syrian regime uses chemical weapons. something the president said would be a game-changer.

so what is his next move? you're watching "hardball" the place for politics. xç

here is what is happening, president obama spoke earlier at a memorial for victims of last week's deadly fertilizer plant blast in west, texas, paying tribute to the many first responder responders who lost their lives. >> together, you answered the call. you dropped your school work, left your families, jumped in fire trucks. rushed to the flames. when you got to the scene you forgot fear and you fought that blaze as hard as you could knowing the danger, buying time

so others could escape. and then about 20 minutes after the first alarm, the earth shook and the sky went dark. and west changed forever. >> 14 people were killed in that explosion, more than 200 were wounded. the mother of the boston bombing suspect spoke to reporters thursday in russia, saying that her two sons were not responsible for the attack. the senate voted to approve funding that would end the measure of the flight delays across the country. authorities say a body found in the providence river is that of a missing brown university student. the 22-year-old was last seen on march 16th. and the number of americans filing for unemployment benefits plunged last week for a five-year low. 330 people applied for first-year job benefits, down 60,000 from the week before. more news later, now back to

"hardball." >> welcome back to "hardball," news about syria, president obama said use of chemical weapons by those in syria would be a line crossed. the regime has used chemical weapons, secretary of defense chuck hagel who is currently traveling in the region briefed reporters on it today. >> the u.s. intelligence community assesses with some degree a varying confidence that the syrian regime has used chemical weapons on a small scale in syria, especially the chemical agent, sarin, we cannot confirm the origin, but we do believe the use of chemical weapons in syria would very

likely have come from the assad regime. >> others have come to the same conclusion but the white house is walking a fine line here. in a letter to senators it makes clear the assessment comes from the intelligence community. and the u.n. is pressing for an investigation before taking the next step. still it raises questions, for instance, what option do we have if the white house decides this line has been crossed? that is a great question, richard engel, chief correspondent. thank you, richard, where do we get this information from? is it hard -- >> based on what we have been hearing from other intelligence agencies it seems pretty solid, that particularly the british were able to smuggle out some samples that show that sarin gas was used on a very small scale, more than once, including a few months ago in allepo. and i think what is interesting

about the clip you just showed was that the defense secretary was reading from that statement. and the white house and the administration general is very cautious on this one. they want everyone to be speaking on the same line. and that line, so far, coming from the obama administration is we are still in a wait and see mode. there are varying degrees of confidence in these assessments. they are not going as strongly as -- in condemnation, or in any kind of definitive way as we have heard. >> can you didn't at the right time or now, whether they are hesitating because of the surety that they used chemical weapons, or that once they put that back out there they then have to move on the green light with some kind of action? >> i think it is a little bit of both. the president painted himself in

a corner by saying this is a red line. and if you acknowledge then that the red line is crossed, it begs the question, well, then what? and today the opposition was very strongly saying the white house must do something. otherwise by doing nothing, and acknowledging they used chemical weapons you are perhaps encouraging them. saying the u.s. won't react. saying yes, we except the chemical weapons were used but we're not going to act. that is one way they may have painted themselves into a corner and don't want to act because of minor several occasions of use. >> i understand. >> the other stuff out of syria is very murky, and they don't know what fired them, what capacity, and the doctored evidence. and having worked in syria quite a bit there is certainly a reason to be skeptical. >> that someone might have put it in there to get us in a war?

is that out of the question? >> no, that is not out of the question, that somebody tempered tissue samples to get us in the war. or that we just don't know enough about who ordered them, was this an accident? was it a misfire? what was the intent? there are still a lot of unanswered questions. i remember looking into these incidents as they were happening at the time. and sarin gas, if it is used properly, it doesn't have the reaction of killing ten or 15 or 20 people. if you suddenly saw hundreds of people dead within an hour that is the sarin gas attack. you don't have a sarin gas attack that kills 15 people. so there is certain confusing things about how small amounts of chemical weapons have been used. >> i'm learning something here, thank you so much, richard engel, as always. we had senator robert menendez of new jersey, senator, this is a murky political thing right

now. i always wondered what kind of role would we play in the syrian civil war? what do we do? do we try to topple that regime? >> well, chris, there is a couple of items here. number one is, we obviously are concerned about chemical weapons, not only obviously being used against the syrian people. but about the security of those sites. and that is incredibly important to us and incredibly important to our allies like jordan and turkey in the region. secondly, if we don't want to see the greatest humanitarian catastrophe go on, we have to change the dynamics, because now there is no tipping point that assad believes he can fall. as long as he has that artillery, we have to think about do we assist the vetted rebels, those individuals who we believe share or values?

at the end of the day do we assist them in a way that changes the dynamics? and thirdly, we have a growing extremist problem here in al-qaeda, and they are growing in strength within syria. that is a real challenge to our national interest, as well. so if we continue to allow what is happening to take place, then we are only going to manifest the bigger problem at the end of the day. >> yeah, but if you're assad, you're looking at hosni mubarak who is in jail, likely forever what is the future for assad if he gives up? the people will lynch him and torture his family if he gives up. why should we quit? >> he has had a series of offers clearly that have been made to him. he can go live in russia -- >> do you think that is -- >> he has opportunityings elsewhere.

he has not been willing to do that, and the russians have not changed their own equation, they believe assad may be able to hang in there. if in fact we harness all of our regional allies in the area, have a defined plan, the way we help the vetted opposition inside of syria. if we bring to bear an opportunity to have them change the tipping point. if we, at the same time, look at the opportunities to undermine the extremists, a and by the way, undermine iran which is sending enormous amounts of assistance to assad, then assad is going to say wait a minute, the dynamics changed for me. and i can ultimately find myself dead or i can stay alive in another part of the world. >> do you think we have the power and the ingenuity to turn that war around so that assad loses? >> i do, i do believe we would have to bring in an international effort.

look, you know, to believe that the french and the israelis, who came to this conclusion -- and i understand why the administration wants to nail it down. because if you're going to go to the security council, you don't want to have a history of the repeat of the war in iraq. but by the same to comsame' tok sees himself in a moment which he makes the decision to go ahead and use it because the world is not responding, you have a much greater challenge. and those are the tough consequences we're making. >> just want to make sure we're right before we go in there. thank you, senator. up next, back to dallas and former first lady barbara bush's

stunning statement, she doesn't want her son to run for president. she says we have had enough bushes, wonder what jeb thinks of that. this is "hardball," the place for politics. boys and girls, llllet's get ready to bundlllllle... [ holding final syllable ] oh, yeah, sorry! let's get ready to bundle and save. now, that's progressive. oh, i think i broke my spleen!

. >> rand paul speaking out with new hampshire republicans, the kentucky senator is in the lead among the 2016 contestants.

senator marco rubio is at 20%, chris christie at 13. on the democratic side, no surprise, hillary clinton, 68% support, followed by joe biden with 12%. every else is in single digits, we'll be right back after this.

we're back, former president george w. bush was the center of attention at the library dedication here in dallas. but another bush made headlines, she up staged her son, that is

barbara. matt lauer had a comment. let's see what she says when asked about whether jeb should run. >> he is by far the best qualified man, but no. i really don't. i think it is a great country, there are a lot of great families. and it is not just four families or whatever. there are other people out there that are very qualified. and we have had enough bushes. >> that is a qualified man, well, that only narrows it down to one potential of the gender, we have to look at hillary clinton. anyway, thanks a lot, mom, what he said, priceless. that is one of the great commercials. he is co-author of bush's brain. howard fein is the political director, howard, i got to start with you. this barbara bush is really like -- i was trying to think -- have

to go all the way back to mitchell. martha mitchell. i mean, this woman has something to say here. >> she is nothing like martha mitchell. because everything barbara bush says is said deliberately and for effect. she is the queen -- she is the queen mother of the presidency. and she has been both the wife and the mother of president. the way i view that, wayne may disagree, she knows what she is doing here. she said similar things, not quite in the same words, similar things when george w. was thinking of running, and when she had two people, jeb, who were thinking of running back in the late '90s. she is lowering expectations, and she wouldn't mind at all if jeb ran, that is my view. >> you think it is just sort of warning him of what is out there? >> yeah. >> it wasn't undercutting -- do

you read the way howard does, sort of a loving mother. it is dangerous out there. >> what she really is, a protector, always the strong protector. matriarch of that family. but george w. bush, which is what howard said, what she said to george w. bush is i don't want you to run for governor. the reason why is she didn't think he could beat ann richards, and she was wrong. >> how about this? do you think she thinks he could beat hillary clinton if he runs? >> that is a factor, i talked to jeb bush, it is kind of interesting, i said will we see one of your libraries? he said i don't know about that. he grabbed his son, turned him around and said this is the real candidate. running for commissioner in texas, very likely will win. he will win this race.

unless something weird happens, he is an odds-on favorite for governor in about nine years. >> you're embracing the mother here, i wonder, do you think she took a round house punch to the clintons? why should the same four families run -- >> no, of course, definitely, she was cuffing her cub around, as you said, and also firing a shot across the bow of the clintons. i dealt with barbara bush a lot over the years. if there is a godfather in that family, it is not h.w., it is not george, it is barbara. she is the keeper of the christmas card list and the enemy's list. and she never forgets, and she is fierce. and she has helped make two men president, as i said, her husband and her son. and she is looking out for jeb. and by the way, i saw jeb in washington the other week at a

dinner under similar circumstances to wayne. and it was funny, because i was spending all of my time talking to george p., because he is an up and comer, an obvious future star of the republican party. and jeb's reaction if i can read the body language, hey, what about me? i'm chopped liver, i'm still here. it can go either way. and i don't think that jeb is ready to leave the stage. >> didn't you love the side bar discussion between barbara bush today and the president? i mean, it was a great thing, interesting conversation, michelle obama was dying to get in it. >> john connelly's funeral, where richard nix on sat near an richards, god help us, what were they talking about? >> because they're laughing away there -- it was great.

i do want to know. i'm serious. thank you, howard, thank you for coming on. you are right about the mother, she couldn't have been as mean as it sounded. i hope your right. we'll be right back after this.

>> let me finish tonight with this pleasant day in dallas.

the goal here today was to give a big push-off to george w. bush's presidential library, the great irony, the number one decision for george bush was to take us into the iraq war, and that was, i think, the chief reason for the election of president obama. activists didn't like the iraq war and the foreign policy behind it. didn't like the way it was sold, made to happen. and that explained why the word "iraq" was never mentioned today. not once, and that said, it was civilized here today. you couldn't tell the parties apart, couldn't tell that nixon, and bush -- clinton beat bush, and that the second bush won by saying he wouldn't embarrass us the way his predecessor like bill clinton had. getting through that was a feat

itself. that is what the five presidents did, get through the day, not harming each other, getting through the good evening. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. thank you for joining us. big stuff today and we'll get to all of it. big news out of the st