dogs of war. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. let me start with this, war, bombing people, shooting down airplanes, breaking into houses. i can think of what we mean when we so casually say let's go, let's get in this thing. and all the rest of the rah-rah and drumbeating, killing people and getting killed again. who are these people that want this stuff? predictably yell for it. always the same ones, mccain, crystle, say the name of a

country and war, let's go to war. let's not be afraid to use our strength. let's not apologize for our strength. let's have a muscular foreign policy is, all the metaphors for war that has us stuck in a country whose name we dare not pronounce a decade later. i spent all day yesterday at the george w. bush library. not once did i hear the word iraq. not once. if this crowd is so proud of the wars they pushed, why are they so afraid to remind us of the last one or pronounce the word. the bureau chief for mother james magazine. i want to start with david. you just came back from the middle east. what is happening? are we going into this war, syria? >> i think the first thing to say is that the white house is being very careful and weighing the evidence of chemical weapons used. i was just in israel. i sat with the israeli commanders as they presented their evidence, as they said

nearly 100% solid in their minds syria has used chemical weapons. why is the white house waiting when president obama said this is a red line? the answer is that properly, as you were stressing, he wants to be sure of the evidence and, also, to be sure he can take it to the u.n. and international forums to have legitimacy for whatever the u.s. does. the bottom line for the u.s. continues to be trying to get the russians onboard in a negotiated settlement that will require the most solid evidence that they have crossed not just obama's red line but vladimir putin's as well. >> here is the president's spokesperson today. let's listen to this. >> knowing that potentially chemical weapons have been used inside of syria doesn't tell us when they were used, how they were used, obtaining confirmation and strong evidence. all of those things we have it to make sure that we work on with the international community. i've been very clear publicly but also private ly that for th

syrian government to utilize chemical weapons on its people crosses a line that will change my calculus and how the united states approaches these issues. so this is not an on or off switch. this is an ongoing challenge that all of us have to be concerned about. >> david, if the government of syria, if the regime were using chemical weapons consistently or in any way as part of the strategic effort to save themselves, wouldn't there be a debate? why is it so fleeting, this eviden evidence? if it were there, if this was part of their strategy like we used in world war i, if they're being used, why is there a complication here? >> i think the evidence is solid. france, britain, now israel have all said that they believe the weapons were used on march 19 and on some other dates, and

we've had occasions from secretary defense hagel that the u.s. supports that. the point is, chris, do you have evidence that you can take to the country and take to the world that won't lead people to say later this was a rush to war based on fragmentary evidence as in the case of iraq. and that's not so easy with chemical weapons. >> the letter congress sent to the white house was easy in terms of use of language. they said we have evidence that leads to these initial assessments that chemical weapons were used on a small scale. but we want corroboration. an assessment is just that. it's an assessment of the evidence before you. corroboration is it's beyond a shadow of a doubt. and so they want to move in that direction before they take any steps. also, i think one reason, and david can speak to this as well, i'm not sure there are a lot of good options. >> right. let's go through that. >> once you get to that red line. >> we say we like to get the russians and the chinese not to

veto as permanent members and have a formal u.n. action, fine. if it's a u.n. action. it always winds up us on point. short of that, david, what can we do? it what would the president be force forced to do? >> the u.n. action would be for a negotiated political transaction. the russians would say we agree he must go and those prepared by former secretary-general kofi annan. >> would they take the assad family to russia? >> that's been discussed in the past. if the russians refuse to support a settlement, the u.s. is going to have to take action, i think. and so they're looking at a menu of options and that you can imagine it ranges from syrian command and control facilities, facilities as associated with this chemical weapons program. the special units that have been the scourge of the syrian population and this are war. those are all very heavy -- >> bombing missions. >> heavy duty.

>> bombing missions. >> well, they might be bombing. various ways you can do it but they're big operations and they require precisely the kind of major the u.s. wants to avoid. >> what would be our right to do that? this has gotten to be so practiced, it's an odd question but i'm going to keep asking it. what's the right of the united states? we live in north america, to pick out a country and we don't like their weaponry, fine. that's a values judgment. what is 0 our international right to go into a country and start bombing the hell out of them? because we're going to be killing people not the assad family. >> i think it's hard to argue that the u.s. and its personnel are threatened. presumably what would happen here is the arab league, which syria is a member, and the arab league seek of syria is now held by the opposition, would pass a resolution condemning the use of chemical waems and citing the evidence the u.s. has prepared and then would call on the international community to take action. so you would have that as a basis. >> it's the libyan model. >> we would be deputized to do the action?

>> and perhaps by a broader coion. i mean, and if the russians block u.n. action, the kind of mandate the obama administration would want will be impossible. >> let's go to the american situation. as i mentioned john mccain, often the hawk in these discussions, said it's obvious the president's red line on syria has been crossed. last night on fox he went further. let's watch senator mccain. >> this is a shameful chapter in american history and i hope that this new revelation of chemical weapons will move the president to do what he should have done two years ago. from the statement that's coming out 0 of the white house, i'm not sure they will. >> there he is, shameful. what did we expect if the assad government falls in the next several months or within the year, say? who wins? >> one of the issues that the administration has been most focused on is this day after issue because assad will not continue to rule syria for much longer. the administration finally in the last week has in place a

program to build a strong command and control within the opposition. i was told today we and our allies are prepared to spend $1 billion on this program going forward. and the idea is to train up, you know, hundreds of people every month, and flow them into syria so you can begin to have some framework. these are people we're working with. >> vetted? >> we are working with a moderate general. >> are you confident as an analyst you think we could actually win this war, have the right side? >> i think the best outcome here is a negotiated settlement. but that requires russia to get off its back side. if, failing that, i have talked a number of times to the general. i talk almost every day to his people, and they have a vision of future syria that americans would be comfortable with. they're not jihadists. they're not extreme. they want to keep the country together. so i think the administration feels it's finally found an

ally. >> my question is abdullah with the security force, intelligence forces are the great. is he able to get those syrian fighters, those regime fighters, fighting against the regime to come and train? >> yes. >> they've been able to get him in there. >> sn. >> they're coming in increasing numbers. >> they were resisting that. military action, as you mentioned, won't be a cake walk. at least according to bob behr. he told politico it would be like walking into a giant lawn mower blade. this is worse than iraq in terms of putting troops inside syria's borders. it's more chaotic and more likely you will lose a lot of troops. so he is a respected guy and troops on the ground, is anybody on our side, in our corner, mccain, anybody saying put in the troops, paratroopers, go in and fight on the ground. >> yes. there's been a lot of military planning for different kinds -- without going into the specifics that would go in in the event we

decide decided to take military action. the problem is you've got a lot of additional things to do. it's a big operation. >> war. >> it is a war. >> john mccain is calling for setting up a safe zone and the only way to do that is to put troops on the ground. it's a big country. they have a big military, the syrians are more organized than the libyans were. there's no way to sort of have what mccain has in mind without sending troops in. i think one of the things when you listen to him talk and the hawks talk, it's as if, you know, there's only one choice which is just to go in. they don't even sort of differentiate between the different types of military options to a great degree. >> i know they don't. >> we have to get in there. we have to get in there. and, you know, it's not clear it's going to be an easy win or there's even a great strategy how to get from here to there and while there are people to work with i still worry about, you know, we worked with the

mujahedin and there's chaos. if you don't get this transition through the u.n., the ideal solution, had any type of conflict, even if you're backing the right guys, doesn't mean there aren't other guys there who will take advantage and could lead to a civil war. right? it's very iffy. >> david is right. to make one final point, it's not in our interest for this to end suddenly tomorrow with assad going. the opposition really isn't strong. the moderate opposition isn't strong enough. creating an iraq-like vacuum. the jihadists are the strongest fighters. three or four months from now that will not be true. that you can do a no-fly zone ea easily, i'm told by u.s. officials that's just not so. you have to move the batteries that are in turkey almost to the border. they would be vulnerable. you have to be prepared to defend american soldiers lives on that border. >> has any war ever been easier

than we thought it would be? >> no. >> thank you. that's what i want to know. it's always an underestimate. i respect you. coming up, i'm still where i'm always at, against the war if we can avoid it. enough bushes as president. that may be the quote of the year. how about the clintons? the kennedys, the cuomos? do we like political dynasties? somebody wrote this, some people like political dynasties. plus, congress steps in to help the faa avoid more furloughs for air traffic controllers, brought in by the sequester that have led to flight delays across the country. so let's get it straight. kick kids out of head start or turn away cancer patients. rich people who can afford to fly get inconvenienced, time to act. this is "hardball" where hollywood descends on washington for the biggest party of the year tomorrow. the white house correspondents dinner. actress and activist, the sharon stone, will be sitting in david ignatius' seat in just a few

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would you like to see your son, jeb, run? >> he's by far the best qualified map but, no, i really don't. it's a great country. there are a lot of great families, and it's not just for families or whatever. there are other people out there that are very qualified, and we've had enough bushes. >> we've had enough bushes. welcome back to "hardball." that was barbara bush, perhaps the line of the year politically. americans like to talk about dynasties, political dynasties, the kennedys, cuomo in new york, the bushes, of course. and then there's the clintons, very active dynasty. hillary, if she runs in 2016, somebody pointed out here on our

production team, chelsea clinton will be the only one able to answer the question, what do your parents do? they were both presidents. the front-runner for 2016, everyone knows that. and jeb bush is a republican contender. is the country ready for a clinton versus bush campaign and should we be looking for as barbara bush said other people out there? i'd say this is a democracy after all. a democratic strategist and rick -- are you a lower case democrat or an upper case democrat who likes dynasties? i think there is a special case because we've never had a woman president. that's the wind at her back. >> she is not a dynasty candidate. she is a candidate who has earned it in her own right. she happened to have gotten a boost in new york. >> which one do you want? >> i'll take either. whatever is available. >> you're bidding for? >> ireland. how about ireland. >> so she's earned it? >> she has earned it. >> okay. can you say the same thing -- i

agree with you. couldn't you say the same thing about andrew cuomo? he's been one of the few popular governors. >> i think you could. >> what's your principle as a republican? you are middle class. >> i agree. >> republicans don't like that. >> i agree with you and barbara bush. if he has talent, then they should run. and if they don't, then people will kick him out. >> the question isn't whether he's qualified to be president. he was a reasonably good governor in florida. the question is whether the american people will tolerate another bush. >> that's what i think the mother is talking about. i think she was on the nail saying, look, every election has a number of candidates. they pick themselves. and then we choose among those guys who pick themselves. in the case of hillary, herself. then we say which one of you who thinks you should be president, we will pick. we don't pick them. we don't go looking for them. so they come forward. but there's another personality, the times, the feeling of the times. what we want. after carter we wanted strength. after nixon, we wanted

cleanliness. after w. we wanted brains. we always want something we didn't have in the previous president. am i wrong? >> you're right. >> keep going. >> thanks for patronizing me. what do we want now? i think we want a woman as a president. i just feel it. women my age have expressed that to me in all different tones, positively and negatively, but they want this to happen. this has nothing to do with political party. don't you hear it out there? >> i think the country would be thrilled to nominate a woman and i think it would be fine. but hillary has a big problem. i think benghazi disqualifies her. >> what did she do wrong? >> well, a lot wrong. >> just give me the short? >> she left people in benghazi who had less security than our guys in paris did. there does not seem to be a direct line of command, there's no accountability and we never heard from her, other than to say what difference does it make what happened? it makes a lot of difference. in her campaign, that would

rise -- >> you believe there was cable traffic between her and the tripoli? >> if there wasn't, why wasn't there? >> she was in charge personally of the safety of chris smith when he decided to go visit -- >> she was in charge of the facility, yes. >> look, do we believe in democracy or dynasty? it's a simple question. why can don't we designate these children at birth, if we really believe in royalty, with which they do in britain which is an absurdity. take a guy like prince charles of no known ability and say he should be the next king when he's born. are we going to do 0 it with chelsea. they're all around, are these kids, working as correspondents here and there, doing something. designated in their teen years as being future presidents. why don't we give them a couple years. chelsea may well show something. why don't we wait until they actually do something? it would be great if they would be president or be congressmen. >> think about it for a second. they get to come up to the plate and take a swing.

some of them hit a ball and get elected and they do pretty well. they get an advantage to the plate but no one is going to hold the bat for them. george bush, i'm not the ever going to defend george w. bush policy wise but he got elected governor of texas twice. you can't be a dumb man to do that. now he made mistakes, a very good politician. jeb bush is probably a better politician, but he'll never be president because his brother screwed it up. >> thank you. up next, what would president obama and form er first lady barbara bush chatting about at the bush library? i found that the most fascinating conversation. jimmy kimmel has some guesses as to what they may have been talking about. i love this stuff. that's in the sideshow in about a minute. this is "hardball," a place for politics. look at this. then michelle tries to get in on it.

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there was a very hi

high-profile dedication certificate is moan for george w. bush's new presidential library. fo former secretary of state rice did the event and former bush was whispering to president obama and making him laugh. >> the governor of texas, rick perry. >> where is he? he used to wet his bed. >> the governor of new jersey, chris christie. >> oh, my. he tried to eat my hair once. >> he probably thought it was cotton candy. >> that is brilliant. back to "hardball." we're in the sideshow. hold on to your seats for this one. karl rove rates the presidency of george w. bush. well, with where does george w. bush rate according to w. and the compare ton to say, washington, lincoln, fdr and ronald reagan? here is rogue with jonathan

karl. >> where does karl rove, histori historian, rate president bush? where do you put him? >> look, the greats you can't touch. george washington, abraham lincoln, ronald reagan, fdr, the greats. but, yeah, i put him up there. >> i put him up there. there you have it. w. coming in just shy of the greats. i personally put him in a category all by himself. next, former congressman and three-time presidential candidate ron paul took a dive back into politics this week and endorsed georgia republican congressman paul brown now running for the u.s. senate. ron paul says he and brown share a commitment to keeping tabs on the federal reserve. that's one of their focus issues and their thoughts on evolution. >> i've come to understand all the stuff i was talking about evolution and numerology, big bang theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of hell. >> i think there is a theory, a

theory of evolution and i don't accept it. i just don't think we're at the point where anybody has the absolute truth on either side. >> so ron paul has a fellow science skeptic going to bat for him. and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. up next "your business" with j.j. ramberg.

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cyber attacks against small businesses are on the rise. what can you do to protect yourself? and how a cool and attractive work place can increase employee morale and bring in new customers. it's time to make money up next on "your business."