it'll be read in an hour and a half. that 4:30 eastern. and we will bring it to you live here on msnbc. first to the unfolding and fast-moving story out of cleveland. moments ago, gina dejesus who went missing nine years ago at age 14, moment ago arrived home. you can see neighbors and media arrived outside to greet her. earlier it was a chaotic scene as amanda berry and her 6-year-old daughter arrived home. amanda was expected to come out but instead her sister can came out. she briefly thanked the public and media for their support and also requested privacy. any or all of the suspects in the case, throw brothers, will likely be charged today. in fact it could happen at any time. we are learning a few more grizzly details about what they allegedly forced amanda berry, gene gentleman dejesus and michelle knight to endure as well as possibility after fourth woman held in the home.

we go to msnbc's craig melvin near the house where this all took place. craig, what more do we know about the potential charges here and the conditions that these women were subjected to? >> the charge is kidnapping and raping with those are two primary charges we are expecting to come down, as you mentioned, are any moment now. we are told it would happen by 6 okay today. after the formal charges, we expect another news conference where we expect more details from police. as for the plea women, you mentioned the first two, amanda berry, gina dejesus, both have been reunited with their families. michelle, on the other hand, michelle knight is still in the hospital. she is in good condition. but she is still in the hospital. i talked to some investigators here on the scene outside the home where the three women were held captive for roughly a decade. and the investigator told me about 10, 15 minutes ago, that they are done with the

excavating here of the yard. they won't be digging up the yard any more and they also told me that no human remains had been found. they are going to continue to talk to neighbors, they are going to continue to talk to family members of the three girls. trying to get any new nugget of information help them piece together precisely how they were initially taken hostage. and also, how they were -- how they managed to stay off the grid. we found out from police about two hours ago, that these three women had no contact with any adult via the outside world for roughly a decade. so one more additional note, ashley summers, she would be 20 years old right now. she was 14 when she went missing. she also lived in this neighborhood. investigators are saying at this particular point they want to talk to the three women held captive about ashley summers. they are not drawing any sort of connection between the castro

brothers and ashley summers, but they want to talk to the women to find out whether they know anything about it. again, she went missing in 20077 from the same neighborhood and quite frankly, she looks like the other missing gills as well. >> craig melvin, thanks so much for that update. allegations of forceable rape, multiple pregnancies and horrible conditions inside that house where the women were kept for so long. who could do this and how did it happen in the middle aftof a bu community? let's bring in casey from western state university and former fbi profiler clint van isn't a and dr. jordan, i want to start with you on some of the things that craig was just talking about there. possibility of a fourth girl who disappeared in a similar neighborhood. had similar physical characteristic p.m. based on what we've seen of these i goes, do you think it would be unusual they picked up the other three girls each onier at a time. would it be unusual to expect

there may have been a fourth girl or more than that? >> no, it is not unusual. that's why they are pursuing this very carefully. there was a pattern of a one-year separate between the first three abductions. then you have break of about five or six years before the next missing girl, whose whereabouts is still unknown, comes to light. this would be unusual but certainly not unheard of. and it would be very interesting to see if the three women have any recollection of anything odd going on. the girl could have been abducted by the suspects and perhaps murdered and they would not have even known she was ever a captive even briefly. again, they will get their best evidence from the three women who have now come forward to see if that is even a possibility. >> clint, we have seen a few crimes over the last few years, such a bizarre crime. what were the commonalities that you might notice among the sort of men who might grab women off the street and keep them captive for years?

>> for years, i think is the key term here. as you well know, in the same city, cleveland, within the last couple years, an individual kidnapping women off the street, keeping them for a period of time and murdering them. i think he finally wound up killing 11 women and he had the bodies inside the house before the neighbors finally complained enough about the smell that something was done about it. in this particular case, we may well find out that one of the suspects, perhaps the primary suspect here, is what we call a sexual sadist. someone who not only can kidnap for sexual purposes, but likes to torture, likes to put women in bindings, and that aspect of that personality would allow him to continue to do something like that. you know, you pose an interesting question, could there be more victims. i think there could either

before or after. but realize for a kidnapper, this also becomes a logistic challenge. how do you keep, how do you care for three women? we are told at least one of the suspects was carrying bags of fast-food into the house on a daily basis. and may have simply been, he just couldn't physically or logistically take care of any more victims at one time. >> and clint, just to move further on that same thread, we are learning now a little bit more about ariel castro and we are learning that he was pretty active in his community. he was on face book. he the friend. how sociopathic do you have no be to have to what some would consider a normal life and then lead this hideous double life behind closed doors? >> yeah. there are a lot of people out there, sociopath, psycho paths that have the capability of being charming and functional on the outside and very, unfortunately, deadly on the

inside. you know there are allegations that of course he was this terrible wife beater. that broke his wife's nose three different times and caused brain hemorrhage and all these other injuries to her because he beat her a number of different times. should in fact that be true, i think that shows you the personality behind closed doors and the violence that someone like this would be capable of. now you take three brothers and what bonds them together unlike two criminals who might have been cell mates in prison or something, here you have three brothers that spent half a century together and at the very least the two other brothers were knowledgeable, it appears of the crime, buzz they had been in and out of that residents and we may find they were full participants in this terrible crime spree also. >> clint, another thing people can't seem to understand is why this didn't go reported better in the community. we've received some conflicting accounts of how that occurred.

take a listen to this. >> i called the cops. 20 minutes later, the cops came up. pounded maybe a good 20 times. they were there, 5, maybe 8 minutes. no answer. shined the light on the drive way, sought windows were boarded up. got back inside the squad car and left. >> we have no evidence that anyone neighbors, by standers, or anyone else ever called regarding any activity that house. >> so unpack that for us. number one you saw a witness there, mr. lugo, saying he had done the reporting into the police. the public safety director, martin flask saying the opposite. one, what do you make of it? and two, how common is it to see these kind of conflicting reports in a case like that? >> yeah, one thing, let's put some facts on the table. there are 2,000 young people 18 and younger that have reported missing everyday in the united states. >> clint, i'm sorry -- clint,

i'm going to actually jump in. sorry. i asked you a question. but we will take you live to the home of gina dejesus where the family is speaking. >> i am sandra luis. again we want to thank you for being patient. we would like to thank everyone, especially the missing and exploiting children, john walsh from america's most wanted wab black on black, judy martin, lydia esparta, channel 19 "action news," also the guardian angels, cleveland police, fbi. that have been here through thick and thin 24/7 hours a day whenever we needed them. okay. also, the extended family. friends, community. thank you. thank you again for your prayers and support.

there are not enough words to say or express the joy that we feel for the return of our family member, gina. and now, amanda berry, the daughter and michelle knight who is our family also. now, we need to, as a whole, to rally together to look next door and bring our other family member that is missing, ashley summers. okay? i want to especially thank phil, sorry if i'm pronouncing your name wrong, dorsney, the fbi, cleveland police. you know, been there. i know we could be rough but we couldn't have done it without them.

and we have to support them any way we can because they have supported us in bringing those girls back. once more, i want to say thank you, but i will also put my foot down as the mean one of the family. okay. we are asking for your support to be patient with us, give us time and privacy to heal. okay. when we're ready, i promise you, every single one of you i guys,e will talk to you. last but not least, i'm asking god to watch over all of us. and i'm asking the family, the family is asking, that we as a community, do not go retaliate

against the family of the suspects of this crime. we are asking that as they have been doing their job, and it may not be today we when we want it, maybe not tomorrow, but they will get the job done. we need to let them do their job. thank you. >> that's incredible footage to watch. dr. casey, let me ask you this. i watched these shows like disappeared, religiously, and i'm always in the back of my mientd thinking about recovery cases like elizabeth smart and jaycee dugard. i know it is miraculous but how rare is it that we find kidnapping victims alive so many years later. >> is rare. we can probably think of maybe a dozen from the past decade or so. some of them make the news and some of them don't.

and sometimes lack of publicity is in the best interest of the captive and her healing or his healing. but the bottom line is, that when it does happen, it catches our attention because it is so rare. and that's why we are completely fascinated by this particular case. if there is a take away, it should than we all look to the left, to the right at our neighbors and say, is there something that could be going on in that house that i'm just not paying attention to? i think we should leave these girls alone and let them heal in the knew tour but the lesson here is, what could be going on next door. and how isolated are we as a community that we really don't know our neighbors. that is the best solution to finding out how many are still out there. because i do believe there could be dozens, even hundreds of captives out there that are going undetected. >> dr. jordan, listening to the spunk and strength and joy and resilience of gina's aunt there, i can see she will get the support and love that she needs. but take us through a little more specifically and

clinically, what do these women need from their families and in the coming days and weeks and the psychologists they will talk to in coming days and weeks. >> there is no doubt they will be provided the help, counseling, psycho therapy they need. their individual suffering will vary depending on the particular girl. the suffering depend on the abuse they experienced, frequency, duration, priority, intensity of that abuse. some girls are extremely resilie resilient. male and female alike. if they have support of the family, community, that's tyub one thing. but some people's suffering will last the rest of their lives. suffer post traumatic stress disorder like prisoners of war and become something they learn it live with and hopefully get through but believe me not one of them will ever get over it. they will rediscover life. i think the word of advice just

from jaycee dugard yesterday, this is something that happened to these women but not who they are. >> clint, one of the things that keeps running through my mind is how many other people are there out there living in these sort of horrible conditions that we don't know about and obviously, we don't hear about these sort of cases very often but kidnapping is horrifically common and certainly missing people, incredibly common. how unusual are these set of circumstances? >> well, number one, i think that's one of the world's dirty little secrets is the number of people, men, women, children held in some level of bondage, sexual bondage. otherwise all over the world. so let's express that now back down to out. if you take my number, 850, 875,000 people, that's only the

people reported missing, how many others are gone that we aren't there to say they are gone. how many people aren't recovered. we don't know what happened to them. i agree with casey, that i think there are other people in this similar type of situation that are out there and again, the sometimes the emotional chains that are wrapped around somebody are just as strong if not stronger than the chains hanging from the ceiling where these women were held that one can only imagine how they were use for the young women and keep them in place so they had both psychological and physical chains on them. i think there are dozens if not hundreds of others across this country and in a similar situation that we just haven't found. we just don't know where they're at right now. >> and clint, did you want it finish the point you were making earlier about the discrepancy

about people saying they called the police or authorities. >> yeah. it could be someone that just seees a patrol car passing by and you wave them down and you say, i saw something. the officer goes up and knocks on the door. doesn't see anybody around. he or she jumps in the kr and keeps going. they don't do an fif, a field interview form. they don't log it in that they did anything. number two, it could be mismanagement on the part of the police department. records don't reflect it. and number three, we can't disregard this, i'm not apologizing for the police, but sometimes people want to be helpful. they so badly wish they would have done something over the last ten years and in their mind they imagine, what could i have done. all of a sudden, the imagination becomes reality somewhere along that continuum is what has happened with the stories that we've heard so far. >> dr. jordan, as a

criminologist, i want to go into the psychology of these men and what clint was talking about before about the disassociation that happen possess. they that they can be criminal toward people and positive members of the community, having ribs with their neighbors, and also caring toward the people who they have under their control and a lot of crimes that criminal, just mean and violent toward the victim. but in this, it is a little of both. how do you disassociate yourself like that as a criminal. >> well, the sexual motivation basically override after a while any sense of guilt. they maybe had twinges of guilt at the beginning but it is like jumping in at beth feet. once you have a girl chained in your basement, how do you get out of this? you can't have her killed, that's a whole other level. then watering down the sense of guilt, sexually gratified and torturing these girls. and you end up with what we call

a paul of denial. we don't have a level of vocabulary to explain the spectrum of denial. but eventually, assuming mr. castro is guilty of these crimes, he would have been able to put on a false face to the outside. and actually encourage this in himself, this disassociation, by saying to the i go in the band, mr. dejesus, hey, i heard about your cousin, she been recovered. that's such a red herring because gina dejesus is in his basement. why would anyone in the family think he is involved because he is so concerned about her disappearance. that is how they hide in plain sight, for as we can tell now, years at a time. >> clint, i want to ask you about other details we are learning. we are learning there may have been multiple pregnancies. do you expect there will be efforts to on the part of prosecutors to find out what happened to those pregnancies and could we see additional charges in the future?

>> you know, that brings us back it what the state law is, what federal laws are, you know, do we consider the fetus the unborn to still be a human being. and you know, that is a whole other debate. again, that is the whole other debate. it should, because some of the things that i've heard so far was that when these women became impregnated that at least one or more of the accused subjects beat them to force them to lose that fetus. should that have been the case, i mean, the assaults, murders, are just going to stack up. the only good thing wore facing right now, is hopefully everyone involved in this will be convicted. will never see the light of day. i think one interesting point is that we heard today that these women saw no other adults this entire ten years. now, whether that means no other adults than the one castro,

whether all three brothers. but at least there is no overt indication that there were other people coming in and abusing these women too. so that limit somewhat the concept of an ongoing conspiracy beyond perhaps the three people that are being held right now. >> dr. jordan, you mentioned that, you know, these women were hiding in plain sight, that the suspects here were hiding in plain sight. i think one of the things that's shocking is that this is a house in a neighborhood with neighbors around. it wasn't in some isolated secluded place. are we sort of -- is that unusual? i mean, would this be normal to be hiding there in plain sight in a well-populated area? >> absolutely. when we look back at the last decade, and with captors which is different than custodial or elder abuse, they have that paul of normalcy. they put on a face to the

outside world. this is how they get away with it. if they were in an isolated area, they might show you on the radar for strange behavior. but one thing to piggyback on clint's observation, ohio is one of the few four state in the united states that considers a fetus to be a human being at conception. >> right. >> not at viability. so if these speculations, they are rumors right now, but if these reports are true that these women were pregnant and the fetus was beat to the point of being miscarried, then they would be looking at murder charges. again, we just have to follow up on that. but the fact that there are three of them, it is to me what is very unusual about this particular case, you would think that one of them would have been the weakest link and they would have been found out long before amanda berry had to fight for her life to get out of that house. >> right. please stay with us. up next, the latest in the jodi arias case. when we come back, a verdict has been reached. ars e s evs erywhere these days.

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after less than four days of deliberations, the jury is back with a verdict in the jodi arias murder trial. it will be read in about an hour. nbc's diana alvear is outside the phoenix courthouse. diana, what do you got? >> things have ramped up outside the courthouse. people have rushed over to the courthouse steps. the media getting their cameras ready but the jurors themselves left the building. they are at lunch and some of the colleagues inside tell me they were relaxed. one woman looking to be brushing away tears. we don't know what kind of a verdict we have. there is one charge they were deliberating, trying to decide whether jodi arias committed first degree murd per. they do have other options. secondary murder, manslaughter, hung jury or they could end up saying not guilty. at this point we don't know what on their mind. we will find out in just a short while but everybody around here just feels heightened teng right now. remember, it's been a really

long time. travis alexander died in june of 2008 will. and now, today, in just an hour, we are going to be hearing jodi arias's fate. >> all right. diana alvear, thank so you much. i will now bring in two former prosecutors and defense attorneys, ricky claimon and karen desoto. ricky, let me start with you. first degree murder means there is some sort of premeditated. do you think they have met that bar in this case? >> i think they met that bar or reasonable people could say so. but it is up to the jury to decide if the prosecution did their burden of proof. met their burden of proof, both in quality and quantity, beyond a reasonable doubt. >> s.e.? >> yeah, i want it ask karen about the four day deliberation. i good d a quick search and did found other cases.

casey anthony 4 hours to 20 minutes. o.j. less than 4 hours. what does this tell us, if anything? >> this is interesting. as many cases as i've tried, you know, there is no rhyme or reason. a lot of people say in a more complicated case, if they come back quickly then it is not favorable for the defendant. or it will be favorable for the defendant. you know, you really just can't tell. but i know a lot of people were saying in this particular case, why is it taking so long? jury instructions as ricky can tell you are pages are a pages and pages long. this case has a lot of lesser-included offenses. first degree, second degree, manslaughter. when have you that many jury instructions, the jury is good about going through each count, reading them, going through the evidence. jurors are very respectful.

i'm surprised they were only out days and didn't take longer to go through the jury instructions. so with the number of counts and a lot of different choices that they have in this case. >> i tell you, the people on this team know i was saying yesterday the jury will be back today because they've been on this trial for so long, i'm sure they want to go home and end all this. so i want to hear from each of you, whether you think they will come back and say first degree or second degree. given all of the trial we watched, length of time they have been away and come back with a verdict, what do you think it will be? >> i can tell you from a common sense standpoint, jurors don't like victims that have been stabbed, slashed and shot with additional evidence of premeditated. the gasoline, renting of the car, multiple ways of killing somebody. >> stealing a gun from her grand parent. >> exactly. which is pretty clear and convincing evidence about premeditated. therefore, i would say, not looking that the from having one crazy juror, the verdict probably should be first degree murder.

but as we all know from casey anthony and other cases, you only need one juror who bonds with the defendant. >> but casey anthony was more than one juror. the jury said, there is not enough efd evidence to convict. the prosecution did not make their case. what do you think, ricky? >> i think karen is right. in terms of what we have all seen is quality of evidence with premeditated. however, if any juror bonded with this woman. she is a real person to them now. they watched her months after months. 18 days on the witness stand. if they don't want to do the ultimate decision of life or death, which by the way means they are going to have to come back and go deliberate on that issue. that they may just decide a lesser included offense of second degree or even manslaughter is a way to put this to rest. >> let's talk about that ricky. one of the things about our criminal justice system is that it is not the killing, that actually gets you in trouble.

it is the mental state you have that result in a killing that could be considered a serious murder, first or second degree murder. when have you a mitigation defense like this, that is bound up in the idea this was either completely spontaneous, right, or a result of adequate provocation, hasn't the defense, from what we've seen, failed to carry that over the line? because there is just so many details that suggest that this was not a spur of the moment or immediately provoked crime? >> the defense has no burden whatsoever. so the burden is 100% on the prosecution. so if the defense made the jurors think that perhaps she really was as smart as the prosecutor said. so smart she couldn't have possibly messed this up so badly, that then they might think it really was on either by virtue of provocation or maybe they just don't want to have her die. but by logic, by any reasonable

look at efd, i think most people would say in this case, as opposed to casey anthony, in this case, there are all these forensics that would prove the guilt of this woman. >> you talk about, they don't want her to die. do you think it is harder for juries to send women to death? >> yes, i do. and we should know that because of the statistics on death row. harder to send women to death. and she's young, even if she is evil. >> karen, do you think ultimately, having seen this whole circus and spectacle, do you think it was a good thing or bad thing that jodi arias took the stand and spent 18 days there? >> well, i can tell you that my strategy as a defense attorney, if you believe that your client is fried, no pun intended, you put thm on the stand. because perhaps you can get that one juror to bond about them. if they bond with them and you get a mistrial, then you have

the negotiating power to go back to the prosecutor and say, let's negotiate something. take the death penalty off the table. it is great strategy. because if you think that's it, they are done, over with, put them on the stand and take your chances. but that's a difficult decision as a defense attorney it make when your ultimate penalty is death. you have to be very careful, see how they present herself. obviously the defense tone thought, she is articulate enough and pretty enough, maybe i can put her on there and maybe one of the jurors will sympathize and maybe maybe she is brain washed. and jurors, it is not a hundred percent science, you never know what they are going to do. that what you always tell your client, you are never sure, never a hundred percent, it can go either way no matter how good the facts look for you. >> with her poe entshlly bonding with the jurors, the jurors got to ask questions in this

particular trial. would that have some impact on the ultimate result and on them potentially bonding with her? >> yes, a huge impact. okay, a few jurisdictions that allowed jurisdictions that allow questions. they were able to ask 200 questions. in other jurisdictions, they are only allowed 3. in this case, they said, why could you, how could you. which would indicate that perhaps that's it, she's done for. but she got a lot of face time with the jury. and she answered all of the questions as best she could and you over in know, one of the jurors said, she answered all of our questions. i'm not going to kill her. i bonded with her. some of the stuff doesn't make sense. maybe she was a little brain washed. this seems very odd o for a very articulate pretty person to do. every jury comes with their own baggage, own biases and no

matter how many cases you've tried, and i could tell you that i thought jurors would go one way and they went the other way. and that's just wait the cookie crumbles. >> cameras in the courtroom add massive impact on this trial. jurors are told not to look, but we know that they do look. and in a case like this, that became a national, international situation. surely, the jurors got information. surely they are aware of the discussion going on. do you think cameras in the courtroom, at laest in this case, are perverting the process? >> no. i know the camera paid my rent for years. but none the less, we know in study after study, that the camera does not make a wit of different. >> this so fascinated the public. what is it about this particular case that so grabbed our attention, do you think? >> i can tell you exactly what it is. a lot of sex take, role playing.

she is very pretty. there are salacious details. he was mormon. obviously those are all details that we find, you know, amazing. especially when it is a young articulate pretty woman and obviously the sexting and what we have now is social media. we have twitter. all of these things that now give us a glimpse and we all get to be voyeurs even more than we had in the old court tv days where you could just watch the trial. now you can, 24 hours a day, see twitter. you can see jodi arias twittering. this is an amazing thing. i have to disagree with ricky. i believe having cameras in the courtroom does make an impact on the way that people testify. what they say, how they say it. even how they come dressed to court. i think that does in a weird way have an impact on how you present yourself and that's probably one of the reasons why in federal court cameras are still not allowed. >> oh, bestill my beating heart.

>> all right, well we will know how this all turns out in just about an hour. thank you both. >> thank you. >> a busy news day, the benghaz capitol hill when we come back. i am an american success story. i'm a teacher. i'm a firefighter. i'm a carpenter. i'm an accountant. a mechanical engineer. and i shop at walmart. truth is, over sixty percent of america shops at walmart every month. i find what i need, at a great price. and the money i save goes to important things. braces for my daughter. a little something for my son's college fund.

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choose double miles or 2% cash back on every purchase every day. what's in your wallet? [ crows ] now where's the snooze button? some republicans are calling it a scandal bigger than water gate. a u. during four hours of testimony two of the highest ranking americans in lib wyalibya -- so the obama administration botched the response by refusing to send in special ops forces that would have better secured the area. prs. >> i have averted my leadership indicating that we needed to go forward and consider the

deployment of the foreign emergency support team. i called the office within the state department that had been represented there asking thm why it had been taken off the table and was told that it was not the right time and it was not the team that needed to go right then. >> about 3:00 a.m., i received a call from the prime minister of libya. i think it is the saddest phone call i've ever had in my life. and he told me that ambassador stevens had passed away. the committee's labors to uncover what happens prior, during and after the attack matter. it matters to me personally. and it matters to my colleagues. it matters to the friends and family of ambassador stevens, shawn smith, glenn dougherty and

tyrone woods who were murdered on september 11th, 2012. >> by the end, ambassador stevens and three other americans were dead. whistleblowers say the white house covered up the cause of the attack by blaming it on a spontaneous demonstration over a youtube video mocking mohamed, a point reinforced by ambassador susan rice in days after the attack. >> i was stunned. my jaw dropped. and i was embarrassed. a phone call after the interview, i asked -- >> this is after secretary rice went on television and mislead the american people. you are on a phone call with beth jones and it changed because you asked beth jones what? >> i asked her why the ambassador had said there was a demonstration. when the embassy reported only an attack. >> again, what kind of response did you get from beth jones when you asked that question. >> she said, i don't know. >> was it like, you shouldn't be asking that we question, you should be quiet, we don't want it talk about it, what's the

sense you got? >> the sense i got is that i needed to stop the line of questioning. >> these critics want to know why the white house didn't call the attack terrorism from the start and it all happened about eight weeks before the presidential election. while the state department and hillary clinton are taking the majority of the heat on this a senior state department official that we spoke to said the department demonstrated an unprecedented degree of cooperation with the congress on this issue. peter well, serves on the committee. thanks for being here. >> thank you. >> did we learn anything new today and in your view, do you think these hearings are exercising the proper degree of oversight or at this point, given nefg that has been provided, to the committee, has this gone a little further than is necessary? >> well, one thing we did learn is that there are a lot of courageous people out there doing their best. but as far as the hearing, we are really refusing to make a

distinct between what a mistake and what's a cover-up. and in the fog of the moment, it wasn't clear exactly what was happening. and obviously, the real question for congress is what lessons can we learn. not whose political scalps can we get. we should be doing that together. lessons learn said very important. particularly when we have em aboutcies all around the world, including dangerous places. but instead of this being a methodical what did we do right, what did we do wrong and by the way, what we do right has to include the question of whether if an area is so dangerous that it can be defended, should we have our diplomats there in the first place. but instead, this hearing was approached as a partisan deal where the democratic side, mr. cummings, our ranking member, was not allowed to have any access to witnesses before they came in. so it suggests that this is sort of the political agenda and

actually i think in my view, diminishing the importance of get together bottom of what we can learn. >> congressman, just to make sure we have that right. what is the reason for that? why wouldn't you want the ranking member involved? >> that the question that we ask. normally if you were going to get to the bottom, you have both side having an stuopportunity t preinterview witnesses. they were totally denied access to witnesses at all. that's so we can be prepare ped. it is much more credible than there is this tragedy. there are legitimate questions about what did we do wrong or what could we have done better. if they are done together, then obviously it gives the american people some confidence that this is not washington turning a tragedy into a political opportunity. >> and congressman, you mentioned there are legitimate questions here. i think we all feel that way. we have been studying this indent. there was an accountability review board report on making suggest gtss. what are the remaining lines of

inquiry that you think are appropriate at this point? >> you know, i actually think we have to start drawing some conclusions. i think everybody did their best and this christopher stevens, by the way, is a diplomat who prided himself on talking to the people, on getting out and getting around. he knew there were risks associated with doing the job. a lot of our diplomats have a kind of bravery that many of our soldiers have. they know that there is some danger. and in fact, in order to do the job and not just be hunkered down in a bunker, there is going to be some risk. i think what we should be doing is is have an assessment of what is an appropriate level of risk to which we can expose our diplomats. then that goes into the question of where we have cons lates. it goes into the question of what kind of security we require and what kind of movement we allow our diplomats to have. there is a big larger question

here. if we continue to have a press enin the world and that includes in dangerous places, what are the security systems that are going to set up in advance. >> see, i think those are excellent questions, congressman. but what the republican thesis is the president is ineffective dealing with terror. and there was a cover-up here it help save the election. when we look at the breath of information that we have now that we know what we know about what happened in benghazi and we know what we know about the entirety of this administration, do you think either of those thesis hold up? >> i don't. i think this is where -- you know, we live in a world where terrorists can act and they can do it independently. the boston bombing, unbelievable tragedy. but how do we know wh some deranged american, is going to self radicalize, go on to the internet, build a bomb and do something.

it is not like you can hold the boston police responsible. yes, we want to take all of the cautions that we can but we cannot allow our selves to have every tragedy where there is no significant evidence of negligence and then use that as a way to indict whoever happens to be in authority at that time. >> congressman peter welch, thanks for your time. >> thank you. >> i want to bring in former chief doj spokesman matt miller. he was top aid to attorney general eric holder dr. congressman in the gun sting known as fast and furious. matt, it really bothers me that some democrats and pundits have been say, what the big deal about this and calling this inquiry politically motivated. it reminds me of hillary clinton's line, what difference does it make at this point? you and i had a conversation back in the green room. it brought up why it matters.

i was asking you how, over the course of this hearing, those talking point could have been changed and you said, that's bureaucracy. even if that the simple answer, isn't that good enough to note what we could do differently in the future? >> you know, i think we can always look at what we can do differently in the future. that's why the state department had an independent review board that investigated this. but if you watch the hearing, it is consistent with chairman icea's hearings. in this investigation as in his past ones he makes accusations first. then goes out and looks for facts to support them. when he can't find the facts to support his accusations, which he almost never can, he moves on and makes new accusations. in really was about get together bottom of this, i think we would see a different hearing. as congressman weal much had, you you would see them coming in

and able to fully participate. >> and there was in effort to bring in democrats in preparation for the hearing ex clouding a ranking member is not the norm on the hill. that's why i i asked him about . the other piece of this is that over 25,000 documents have been provided. we have learned a lot of information. do you think that at the end of the day there's been sort of too much attention on what ambassador rice may have inaccurately said in those opening days and not enough attention on the actual security operations that we have to get to the bottom of? >> yeah, i think that's right. i mean, the -- the state department's review board did look at the security questions. they found that there were changes that need to be made. and the state department's making those. but if you look at what's drawing attention on the hill, it's been this, you know, obsession with susan rice and this obsession with the talking points. now it's turning into an obsession about hillary clinton. it has nothing to do with the underlying questions about what we could do to make serving

overseas safer for our diplomats. those are the important questions. those were hardly raised at all today. >> those are the important questions, matt. i assure you, for a lot of us that does matter. matt miller, we're going to have to leave it there. thank you very much. we're minutes away from learning the verdict in the jodi arias case. more on that straight ahead. all stations come over to mission a for a final go. this is for real this time. step seven point two one two. verify and lock. command is locked. five seconds. three, two, one.

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once again from phoenix. what's the feeling outside the courtroom today? >> reporter: hi, ari. it's definitely verdict day in downtown phoenix. there are news choppers over the courthouse. tons of media personnel camps out in front of the courthouse. trial watchers there hugging, holding hands, telling me they're hoping today is the day travis alexander and his family finally get justice. there are also jodi supporters. one of her close friends, donovan, who's been in that courthouse every day during trial listening to testimony, saying she's hoping the jury gets it right, that jodi arias is found not guilty. a lot of excitement, tension mounting know b after four long months, indeed almost five years since travis alexander died, we're finally going to get a verdict. >> thank you, again. we will be back right after this. but what we'd rather be making are tee times. tee times are the official start of what we love to do. the time for shots we'd rather forget,

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that does it for "the cycle" today. martin, it's all yours. >> good afternoon. it's wednesday, may 8th. after a 17-week trial marked by salacious and sensational twists and turns, the jury has reached a verdict in the case of jodi arias. and we'll bring you that verdict live in about 30 minutes. since receiving the case on friday afternoon, the jury has been considering whether 32-year-old arias is guilty of first or second degree murder or manslaughter in the killing of her one-time boyfriend, travis alexander. alexander's naked body was found crammed into a standup shower, stabbed 27 times in the back and torso, shot in the head, and with his throat slashed from ear to ear. initially arias claimed that

she'd heard rumors of her boyfriend's death and that there had been lots of blood. it would be two years later that she would admit to killing alexander, but she says in self-defense. according to the prosecution, jodi arias is a skillful liar who used a pistol that she'd stolen from her grandparents' home to murder travis alexander. if the jury find her guilty of first-degree murder, she could face the death penalty. nbc's diana alviar is at the courthouse. diana, you have been following this trial from the beginning. it's been 17 weeks. how would you describe the case as it stands today? >> reporter: hi, martin. well, i can tell you for one thing it is definitely verdict day. there are news choppers dotting the sky. they're camped out right in front of the courthouse, spectators, family members and lots of members of the media. everybody waiting for this