american family. we will make them americans and they will help us because americanness is too powerful to resist. we need only fear those who seek to inspire fear of the future. and throw mud into important discussions. immigrants of all classes will help improve america. we'll be better off embracing them and maybe deporting the fear mongers. that does it for us. martin, it's yours. good afternoon, it's monday may the 13th. as his critics grow louder, the president is running short on patience. >> under fire on several fronts. >> two controversial issues facing the obama administration. >> democrat or republican, this should send a chill up your spine. >> if, in fact, irs personnel were intentionally targeting conservative groups, then that's outrageous. >> how stupid do they think we are? >> of course the white house knows about it. >> identi've got no patience wi.

>> these are the most ruthless police politicians i've ever seen. >> we don't have time to play political games. >> it was willful removal of information. >> how could you change talking points 12 times? >> a full issue of talking points has been a sideshow. >> i'd call it a cover-up. >> who executes some sort of cover-up for three days? the whole thing defies logic. it's been a busy start to the week for the president, facing a stacked agenda complete with an array of critics seeking to degrade his every effort. the president just touched down in new york. he'll deliver remarks at two democratic fund-raisers, having departed washington dogged by twin controversies, seized upon by rabid republicans, desperate to plant slogans of scandal right across this administration. after days dominated by benghazi and renewed charges that the

white house engineered a cover-up on talking points, another scandal has erupted. in this case, revelations last week that irs agents singled out tea party groups for special tax scrutiny. a special determinations unit in cincinnati searched tax exemption applications for groups using tea party, patriot or referencing glen beck's movement. with the story turning into a full blown fire storm and white house ways & means committee, the president addressed it head-on during a press conference with british prime minister david cameron. >> if you have the irs operating in anything less than a neutral and nonpartisan way, then that is outrageous. it is contrary to our traditions. and people have to be held accountable and it's got to be fixed. so we'll wait and see what exactly all the details and the

facts are. but i've got no patience with it. i will not tolerate it. >> if the president expressed his impatience with any bias within the irs, he was equally intolerant toward the renewed flare-up of allegations about a so-called benghazi cover-up and suggestions that the white house was more involved with editing those notorious talking points than previously thought. >> the e-mails that you allude to were provided by us to congressional committees. they reviewed them several months ago, concluded that, in fact, there was nothing afoul in terms of the process that we had used. and suddenly three days ago this gets spun up as if there's something new to the story. there's no there-there. >> noticing that three days after susan rice's appearance on those sunday shows, the white

house put out information that this was a terrorist attack. the president questioned the logic and the motivation of those fanning the flames of the alleged scandal. >> the whole issue of this, of talking points, frankly, throughout this process has been a sideshow. who executes some sort of cover-up or effort to tamp things down for three days? so the whole thing defies logic, and the fact that this keeps on getting churned out, frankly, has a lot to do with political motivations. >> the president's defiance extended to calling these political games and a political circus, and that a great dishonor to our diplomats. joining us now from the white house, cnbc chief washington correspondent, john harwood. political writer for "the new york times". john, the president was exasperated by what he called the political circus around bengha benghazi. i want to start with the irs

issue. the president calling the alleged bias in targeting conservative groups ju s outrag. a blunt condemnation. how far did he go toward heading off a wider fallout, do you think? >> reporter: well i think, martin, the only way there's a wider fallout if somehow this behavior or tolerance of this behavior is connected beyond the irs to the white house, itself. what put the nixon in nixonian was you had a president involved. and if evidence comes out in either the i.g. investigation, which the president alluded to, or in any of the congressional investigations, then he's got a big problem. if not, if none of that evidence emerges, if there is no such evidence, then this is likely to be something where both the president, republicans on the hill, and democrats on the hill all join together in condemning this because this is something that everybody should agree was wrong, and the irs, in fact, has said so. >> indeed, it has now. senator marco rubio wants heads to roll. he sent a letter to the treasury

secretary. i'm quoting. "the irs cannot operate with even a shred of the american people's confidence under the current leadership. i strongly urge that you and president obama demand the irs commissioner's resignation effectively immediately." john, there's only one problem. the irs doesn't have a commissioner at the moment. only an active commissioner filling in a vacant post. that's a bit of an issue, suspect it? >> reporter: well, it is, and it's important to remember that the guy in charge of the irs who testified before congress and said inaccurately, as it's turned out, that there was no political targeting, was appointed by president bush. he was completing a five-year term. now there's an acting commissioner. i had a twitter exchange with marco rubio's policy director today who said, well, wait a minute, the acting director did supervise several bureaus of the irs including the one at issue where these reviews took place. i guess the question is, how far down the chain do you go to

replace people in a situation of this kind? the president still has not selected his own irs commissioner. so to the degree to which one is asking somebody, a president, to replace his choice, because his choice failed, that really doesn't apply. he could ask for steve miller's resignation, but then the question is, why stop there? and how far down the chain do you go? >> indeed it does. john harwood at the white house. thank you, john. the president predicted the latest assault on his integrity earlier today in his remarks on the misguided benghazi conspiracy theorists. >> we've had folks who have challenged hillary clinton's integrity, susan rice's integrity, mike mullen and tom pickering's integrity. it's a given that mine gets challenged by these same folks. they've used it for fund-raising and, frankly, if anybody out

there wants to actually focus on how we make sure something like this does not happen again, i am happy to get their advice and information and counsel. >> let's bring in our panel now. in los angeles, democratic strategist dob bob shrum for "t daily beast." and with us from the white house, msnbc contributor, jonathan capehart, opinion writer for the "washington post." john, the president was adamant today his administration was as transparent as it could have been in these first hours after bengha benghazi. as soon as they had more information, they released it. obviously none of this will satisfy his critics nor prevent such attacks in the future, will it? >> reporter: no, it won't. see in the president's face the moment the question turned from the irs to benghazi. his face pinched. he looked at the reporter with what i describe as a death ray

glare. when it comes in this issue, bengha benghazi, especially what was done to u.n. ambassador susan rice in the early days of this faux controversy, the president has been rather angry and upset by what's happened to susan rice, hillary clinton, thomas pickering, admiral mullen, the two men who were charged with the independent review of what happened. and also i think the reason why the president is angry about this is because republicans are focused on talking points and not focused on what actually happened that night and what led to a diplomatic post being lightly secured. we have to go all the way back to the fact that hillary clinton, secretary clinton, warned back in 2011 that the cuts being proposed by congressional republicans would, quote, harm national security. >> and, of course, that was 128 million in 2011 and $331 million in cuts in 2012. >> reporter: right. >> bob, if i can come to, you senate minority leader mitch

mcconnell obviously seized on the irs issue like a bulldog to a fresh bone, telling "breitbart" news, i'm quoting him "the obama effort to shut up opponents isn't limited to the irs. it applies to the fcc, s.e.c., fec, hhs. this is just one example of an administration-wide effort to silence critics." bob, why isn't mitch mcconnell included the epa and everyone else in his conspiracy of suppression? >> look, this is a festival of mccarthyism. it's delivered by a conspiracy of lies on the republican side. there is not a scintilla of evidence that the president, anyone in the white house, anyone in his political operation, had any idea that this was going on in the irs. it's idiotic. it is, as he said, wrong and outrageous. it would have been completely stupid to engage it. these folks have a strategy. their strategy is the next two years is all about investigation, not legislation. i'm skeptical that much of anything will pass, including m

immigration reform. they may decide not to crash the full faith and credit of the u.s. on the debt ceiling. >> that's nice of them, isn't it? that's great. nine hearings so far on this issue. we vhaven't had a single vote o the american jobs act. >> no, they're not going to pay attention to jobs or any of these things. the other thing they're going to do, we're going to have four years of vilification of hillary clinton. they think she's going to run. they think she's tough to beat. they're going to try to damage her. they tried this in the 1990s with whitewater. it didn't go anywhere. and right now, i think the only impact they're going to have, they're going to make it more likely she's going to run. if they think they're going to beat her this way, they're crazi crazisy. >> john, as the house ways & means committee plan to hold hearings, the president said those of both parties would be dismayed by political targeting by the irs. is there any evidence at all, john, the administration knew

about this before friday's news came out to all the rest of us? >> reporter: so far not yet. we will possibly find out what the inspecter general's report due out this week. as the president said at the press conference, he didn't know and didn't find out about it until the rest of us found out about it when the news broke on friday afternoon. >> okay. but bob, going back to you, on this issue of benghazi, why have speaker boehner or mitch mcconnell or darrell issa, chairman issa, why have none of them ever mentioned the amount of money that was slashed from security for foreign embassies and consulates which might ultimately have protected those in that consulate in benghazi? why do they never, ever mention that? >> well, because as it's been said, that's an inconvenient truth, and truth is not the object here. boehner, mcconnell, the republican leadership has been having a lot of trouble with their own members. with these tea party fanatics and people on the far right in

the republican caucus. benghazi, the irs, raw meat to these folks. they're going to keep doing it. they're going to keep going after it. consistency here is of no matter at all to these folks. you may recall, for example, boehner right after the election said, we're not going to go back and revisit obama care, that issue is settled by the election. just a couple days august he said, they're going to hold another vote. it's at the core of his being to repeal obama care. the core of his being is a quivering fear he's going to lose the speakership. this stuff helps him keep the speakership, helps him keep the republicans in line. in the absence of any positive republican program, it's the best they've got. >> bob shrum, jonathan capehart. thank you, gentlemen. coming up, how ben gauhazgh bengha benghazi, benghazi replaced the refrain of jobs, jobs, jobs on capitol hill. my concern is when hillary clinton's name is mentioned 32 times in a hearing, the point of

the hearing is to discredit the secretary of state who has very high popularity and may well be a candidate for president. [ male announcer ] research suggests cell health plays a key role throughout our lives. one a day men's 50+ is a complete multivitamin designed for men's health concerns as we age. it has 7 antioxidants to support cell health. one a day men's 50+.

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republicans are simply too busy to take up gun reform, or dealing with the sequester, or voting on the american jobs act, or anything really that doesn't paint the administration in the worst possible light. and that's why they've only got time for two issues. >> would you call this a coverup? >> i'd call it a coverup. >> the parallel between benghazi and the irs story is amazing. >> oh, why stop at just the irs and benghazi? surely you can throw a few more

stories into the massive conspiracy. mr. beck, show them how it's done. >> i want you to know that the irs story, the benghazi story, and the boston bombings and the, more importantly, the muslim cover-up, the muslim brotherhood cover-up. they're all connected. >> joining us now is democratic congresswoman jan schakowsky of illinois. good afternoon, ma'am. >> good afternoon, martin. thanks for having me. >> it's a pleasure. there had been talk of a possible second chance to pass expanded background checks in part because of the backlash that many republicans were receiving for their no votes, but i guess we may as well forget about gun safety because speaker boehner, "politico" is now totally obsessed with benghazi. >> well, as the american people,

a person on the street, what about benghazi? and i think they would be hard pressed to really know where it was, what it was, or that they would care very much. not that it wasn't a tragedy, but this is not the thing that's high on the minds of the american people. we know they're concerned about getting a job, they're concerned about making sure they have health care. and really this is such a sideshow, a political sideshow, that i don't think it's really going to take them that far. >> do you think it's a witch hunt? >> oh, i don't think there's any question about it. you know, i remember right after sandy hook -- >> ma'am, chairman darrell issa tells us he's only concerned to find the truth. >> i know, but i'm on the intelligence committee, and the truth was something that came out over days, over weeks, about what really happened in benghazi.

not so different than even at sandy hook which was on united states soil. while there were all kinds of misinformation at first about what really happened. i know the history of writing that memo. and, yes, it went through many iterations, but all of us who have written anything, including a letter to constituents, know that often it goes through many hands and many iterations as well. this is not a cover-up. there is not a scandal here. >> so it is a witch hunt, is it? >> i think so. and i think they have a particular target. that target, as senator feinstein said, mentioning hillary clinton 32 times. clearly they want to dirty her up. make her, in their mind, make her incapable of running for president of the united states. it's not a very shrouded agenda. you can see it. >> but here's the problem, congresswoman. that election is due to take place in 2016. we are now in 2013. and -- >> that's right.

>> -- is it the case that we can do absolutely nothing about the infrastructure of the nation? about employment? about the minimum wage? about gun safety? about immigration? we can't do anything but focus on benghazi? that's the focus? >> i know. and that really is the tragedy, martin, that the real agenda that the american people are crying out to have addressed is so far from the minds of the republicans who just sit in their conferences, i guess, and, you know, in their consultants' offices and figure out what kind of message can we concoct that will really get to the president and hillary clinton and the democrats? instead of how are we really going to address the needs and wants of the american people? it is a tragedy. >> do you really believe, ma'am, that these individuals, people like darrell issa, speaker boehner, mitch mcconnell, who

all come out with these comments every day virtually about benghazi, that this is what their focus is? this is why -- this is the time they spend as elected members of the house of congress? this is what they do? they just spend it concocting these attacks. >> exactly. i think that is exactly what they're spending their time doing. look, you remember when mitch mcconnell was asked what his legislative agenda was. he said to make barack obama a one-term president. that failed. so now he just wants to undermine any program like obama care, we're going to have the 36th or 37th vote to repeal this law of the land next week, and they sit there trying to concoct ways to undermine the president, his authority, and anybody like hillary clinton that might step up next. that's their agenda. >> what is the point of congress, then, at the moment, ma'am? because many of us look at this house, this storied house, and we think, what is the point of these people coming in -- and they have plenty of recesses --

but coming in and doing absolutely nothing about the major issues that confront the nation today? >> i feel so bad about that because you're not the only one asking that question. the popularity and the approval rating for congress is so very low. because the american people say the same thing. what are they doing there? is this really the people's business? why are they there at all? and it hurts me because there are people of goodwill who really want to get something done that's going to make the lives of the american people better. we on the democratic side of the aisle have a full agenda. the president wants, you mentioned, the american jobs act. he wants to get it passed. we can't even get a vote on that. gun safety legislation to make our communities safer. immigration. i mean, all those things are waiting in the wings while they conduct these witch hunts. >> congratulations, darrell

issa. democratic congresswoman jan schakowsky of illinois. thank you so much. >> thank you. coming up, a guilty verdict in the murder trial of dr. kermit gosnell. we'll have the latest right ahead. [ goodall ] i think the most amazing thing is how like us these chimpanzees are. [ laughing ] [ woman ] can you hear me? and you hear your voice? oh, it's exciting! [ man ] touchdown confirmed. we're safe on mars. [ cheers and applause ] ♪ hi. [ baby fussing ] ♪ otherworldly things. but there are some things i've never seen before. this ge jet engine can understand 5,000 data samples per second. which is good for business. because planes use less fuel, spend less time on the ground and more time in the air. suddenly, faraway places don't seem so...far away.

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and find an arthritis treatment for you. visit celebrex.com and ask your doctor about celebrex. for a body in motion. we have breaking news this hour, after five weeks of testimony and ten days of deliberations, a verdict has been reached in the murder case dr. kermit gosnell. the jury of seven women and five men found the 72-year-old abortion provider guilty on three counts of murdering babies at his philadelphia clinic. gosnell was also found guilty of involuntary manslaughter in the death of one wm woman who died after going to him for an abortion in addition to several lesser charges. dr. gosnell could face the death penalty. stay with us. the day's top lines are coming up. in an effort to appeal to women, the nra is highlighting women's self-defense, including

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♪ if i gave one to you? ♪ talking points, cover-ups, conspiracies. oh my. here are today's top lines. there's no there-there. >> i would call it a cover-up. >> who executes some sort of cover-up for three days? >> there was willful removal of information which was obvious. >> the whole thing defies logic. >> lying then lying about lying then hiding from the fact that they're lying. >> we've had folks who have challenged hillary clinton's integrity. >> the secretary of state has played a role in this. >> susan rice's integrity. >> she blamed this attack on the video. >> mike mullen and admiral pickering. >> are you saying you're come police sit in the cover-up? >> it's a given mine will be

challenged. >> people will begin use qug the i" word before long. >> "i" word meaning impeachment? >> you can't question there was -- >> how can you change talking points 12 times for what seems to be relatively right to what seems to be completely wrong? >> the only edits made by anyone here at the white house for stylistic and nonsubstantive. >> we now know any reference to act of terror, any reference to al qaeda were removed from the talking points. >> the day after it happened, i acknowledged this was an act of terrorism. >> the american people were effectively lied to. >> the whole issue of the talking points has been a sideshow. >> the fact is we have four dead americans. was it because of a protest or because of guys out for a walk one night who decided they'd go kill some americans? what difference at this point does it make? >> a lot of people care, i say with respect to the secretary of state. >> americans died. and what i pledged to the american people was we would find out what happened and we would make sure that we held accountable those who have

perpetrated this terrible crime. that's exactly what we've been trying to do. let's get right to our panel. we're joined now by michelle cottle, washington correspondent for "newsweek" and "the daily beast" and maria teresa kumar, msnbc contributor and president of voto latino. the president was exasperated with republicans' fixsation with benghazi and "politico reports" john boehner is obsessed with that attack on a u.s. diplomatic post. i thought republicans were obsessed with job creation. >> well, the whole economic thing hasn't been going all that well for them. in fact, there are a lot of issues that republicans have been having a hard time with. immigration, foremost among them. this is one they really have latched on to. in both houses, i mean, you see senator lindsey graham along with john mccain beating this horse. and it seems to be one of the things that plays really well with the right wing of the party, in particular, which lindsey graham, who's up for

re-election, has to worry about in his home state. it's just a lot more convenient to obsess about this and float conspiracy theories than it is to actually kind of try and get down to working out some policy. >> yeah, do you agree with that, maria teresa, they would rather spend their time discussing this as opposed to addressing the complex issue of immigration? or, indeed, gun safety reform? >> martin, michelle's absolutely right. congress right now has 79% disapproval rating according to gallup by the american people. the american people recognize what the republican party right now, has nothing to show for it. they basically failed on gun reform. they're failing on immigration, failing on sequestration. they're not getting anything done and the american people are hurting. now as they realize they have to go back into their districts because recess is coming up, they're going to have a topic they feel like they're owning. this is going to be benghazi. you know what, unfortunately the american people want jobs. they want relief from sequestration. they want immigration. they want real solutions to gun control.

>> right. that was what i thought. on the issue of the all-important benghazi talking points the president called this a sideshow. he said there's no there-there. michelle, here he is on the so-called cover-up. take a listen. >> who executes some sort of cover-up or effort to tamp things down for three days? so the whole thing defies logic, and the fact this keeps on getting churned out, frankly, has a lot to do with political motivations. >> okay, michelle. so given that we haven't heard a word from republicans seeking, for example, to boost embassy security around the world, what is their political motivation? what is their goal? >> well, look, there's a lot of republicans who've always found this president kind of feckless and weak on national security matters. they've never seen him as legitimate commander in chief in such issues. and at the same time, we have hillary looking at 2016, and they would like nothing better

than to go ahead and wound who is widely regarded as the democrats', you know, 800 pound gorilla in this race. there's a wide range of political motivationst can be looked at here. conspiracy theories are very popular, and the president is right to some degree. logic is not what is kind of foremost in a situation like this. it's getting people whipped up and very concerned about shadowy moves and cover-ups and stuff like that. at this point we need a clever name for it like birthers. >> issas, maybe. robert gates described people in his own party as having a cartoonish view of the military. speaking of cartoonish, please take a listen now to representative michele bachmann of minnesota. >> it's no secret that our nation may very well be experiencing the hand of judgment. our nation has seen judgment not once, but twice, on september 11th. and that's why we are going to

have 9/11 pray on that day. >> so, maria teresa, you just heard michele talking about people liking the conspiracy theori theories. we have michele bachmann there telling us that the terrorist attacks on 9/11 were, in fact, an expression of god's judgment on america. is it possible the attacks on benghazi were an expression of god's judgment? >> no, i think what michelle said earlier is the fact we basically zeroed out money in our budget to ensure there wasn't security. adequate security. i think that we need to talk about -- >> why do you keep going on about the facts, maria? can you not see the conspiracy? i don't understand what your problem is. i'm not going to listen to this. michelle, help me. can you not see the conspiracy here? >> i can see conspiracies everywhere. >> you must be able to. >> i think in all fairness i think the american people, they're exhausted and tired and want real solutions. they want government to work. i think they tried to bring up

benghazi during the 2012 election against president obama and it didn't stick. why? because the american public definitely wants to make sure, how are they going to get food on their table, keep their homes, their family has an education? there are so many issues right now congress needs to grapple with that are impacting everyday americans. that's what they want folks to focus on in washington and they're not because, why? because they can't work together. the republican party can't even work together with each other yet alone with the democrats. >> michelle cottle and maria teresa kumar, thank you. don't forget, next tame you cime on, we can talk about the conspiracy involving the irs. thank you very much. more where that came from. coming up, gunfire at a mother's day parade. seriously. the frightening footage straight ahead. and senator rand paul invokes the proclaimers while tinkering with 2016. >> i will walk 500 miles, and i will walk 500 more just to be the man who walked a thousand miles to fall down at your door.

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i don't care what kind of left wing judges president obama appoints, he won't be able to touch our freedom to keep and bear arms in the great state of louisiana. >> that was louisiana governor bobby jindal serving up his annual offering at the altar of this year's nra convention. fast forward just nine days to this past sunday when at least one gunman in new orleans shot and wounded at least 19 individuals including 2 children at what was supposed to be a typically festive parade in honor of mother's day. now, mr. jindal, like many in his party, likes to talk more than he listens on the subject of gun laws and gun violence. so after the tragic shootings on

mother's day, we thought it might be helpful to provide some facts that governor jindal might consider including in his next speech to the nra. the center for american progress reports his state not only has the worst gun murder rate in the country, it also has the highest gun homicide rate among children. in addition, it has the second worst gun homicide rate for women in the country. so, mr. jindal, instead of talking about protecting the nra at next year's convention, what do you think about how you might protect the mothers and children from gun violence in your state? because take it from me, the nra can look after itself. and a quick note on 2016. of all the republicans dipping a toe in the presidential waters, rand paul increasingly seems like he's the most ready to dive in. on friday, the kentucky senator charmed the gop faithful at the lincoln dinner in iowa. of course, he went straight for benghazi and his possible opponent.

>> first question for hillary clinton, where in the hell where the marines? they're asking for security. they're pleading for security. and they got nothing. it was inexcusable. it was a dereliction of duty and it should preclude her from holding higher office. >> no filibustering there, senator. at the same time, mr. paul known for his libertarian leanings is aggressively reaching out to evangelical christians. he invited a crew from the christian broadcasting network into his home to tape a half hour at home with rand paul special. leaving no possible voter on the table, mr. paul flashed a bit of pop culture in iowa for the younger demographic. >> we also need the passion of what young people have, what young people who are in love have. the song i love, it's like, i will walk 500 miles and i will walk 500 more just to be the man who walked a thousand miles to fall down at your door.

>> senator rand paul clearly taking the first steps on his thousand-mile walk to the white house. he hopes. then it is commencement season, and good luck, graduates, because you are going to need it. >> to the class of 2013, i will offer my first piece of advice. enjoy it while you can. soon you will not get to wake up and have breakfast at 11:30 on tuesday. [ male announcer ] what?! investors could lose

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all this discussion about why i had no money. i'll tell you why i had no money. four years of penn. three years of syracuse. four years of georgetown. three years at yale. two years at tulane. two years at penn. and now a granddaughter at penn. >> that was vice president joe biden speaking today during a

commencement ceremony at the university of pennsylvania. he joked that putting so many children and one grandchild through college has nearly left him destitute. the high cost of higher education is far from a laughing matter. we're not just talking about tuition. according to the federal reserve bank of new york, student loan debt at nearly $1 trillion is now greater than the total credit card debt. we're joined now by michael eric dyson, professor of georgetown university and proud one at that. professor, i know that at this time of the year, we have these great speeches encouraging young people to go and reach for the stars or the planets or whatever, to achieve their dreams. but shouldn't we also be talking about the immense debt that they're carrying? that burden that they take with them into the world as they leave college? >> you're so right, martin. because the reality is that debt could really hamstring them so they couldn't even take off. forget aiming for the new planets that are emerging or the

stars, they can't even get to the next elevator rung up or next ladder rung up. the student debt as you cited is greater than the credit card debt. we talk about investing in education in this country and yet we're saddling these students with enormous debt that cripples them. they're out of their parents' homes but not out of their parents' pockets. many of these students who graduate will literally live in the basements of the homes in which they grew up. this may be the first generation to deescalate, not to go up the elevator of success, but to go down it. they will do far worse than their parents' generation before, and that's not the american way. president obama, himself, without the advantage of having a book that got him out of debt would have been in student debt, himself, not long before he became a united states senator. so this is an incredible scenario for the students of this country. while we're selling them pipe dreams, we have to fig wrure ou

way to pump up this economy so people are able to live and students are able to get reductions in the kind of costs put on them as they try to pursue an education. >> all the americans killing student debt, one in five are between $25,000 and $50,000 on student loans. how are you supposed to get started in life if you're way down by that volume of debt? >> it's nearly impossible. you're leveraging your future. you're borrowing against whatever money that you'll be able to make, and this is why people, you know, can't not only get out of debt, martin. given the default rate of the student loans, you can see students can't afford to pay them back. this is why they won't be able to enjoy the american dream of a decent job and a two family picket fence or two child picket fence, you know, house. they won't be able to enjoy what we used to see as the staples and the icons of american success because if you got that kind of student debt, you've got poor credit. if you've got poor credit, you can't buy a house.

if you can't buy a house, you can't have any independent means to succeeds apart from your parents. what we're doing is not simply providing them a lack of opportunity initially after they get out of college, you're talking about a trajectory that will spiral downward and will not allow them to get free of that debt for the and by that time it decreases the probability of having a family and supporting that family and begins to impact all kinds of decisions laterally as well. it's a huge burden. >> okay. the first piece of legislation introduced by senator elizabeth warren is a bill to make interest rates on student loans the same as the rates for loans that the big banks get from the federal reserve. now, isn't that fair? wouldn't that be right? wouldn't it be right that a young person leaving university should get the same rate as a massive bank like goldman sachs? >> of course. wholesale versus retail. you know in america, martin, they want to make money even off of that. they're trying to monetize the

misery of these students. of course it makes sense. senator warren, again, has come up with a legitimate and credible idea that will in all likelihood be rejected by those who insensitive to the claims and predicament of these students. of course it makes sense. why should the big banks get the big credit? they continue to get bailed out by our own economic withdrawal a wherewithal and don't pass the savings to us. this is a criminal cycle and a vicious cycle that has to be interrupted. >> how much more damaging, timely, professor, is is t to t issue of potential or social mobility when you have young people facing the prospect of such exorbitant debt and what we know about education being one of the most important factors in enabling the poor to rise up? i mean, if people cannot contemplate carrying that burden, social mobility shrinks down to nonexistence. doesn't it? >> you're absolutely right. it's nonexistence.

there's demobilization, and it's increased frustration, exacerbates the tension and anxiety because you're doing things the way you were told they should be done. i'm going to school, i'm studying hard, i'm getting an education, i'm borrowing up to my nose. daddy can't pay for it. mommy can't pay for it. there are some people who are able to be taken care of because their parents are capable of providiing them that opportunit. for the masses of people in this country who can't do so, there is the prospect of demobilization, of going downward and as a result of that, it's hampering not only their social mobility, it's hampering their ability to live a life that's in any way meaningful and significant, and if the education is procured, and they still can't succeed, look at the consequences in our social arena that are in the offing there. i hate to even think about what that might mean. >> professor michael eric dyson, as ever, aerodite. thank you, sir. and we'll be right back. [ female announcer ] crest + scope

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to support strong bones. and the brand most recommended by... my doctor. my gynecologist. my pharmacist. citracal. citracal. [ female announcer ] you trust your doctor. doctors trust citracal. time now to clear the air. and today's visit to the white house by british prime minister david cameron provided yet another opportunity to showcase the so-called special relationship. >> it's good to be back for the first time since the american people returned you to office, and as you said, the relationship between britain and the united states is a partnership without parallel. >> interestingly, the british prime minister wants to develop an eu and u.s. trade agreement he believes will boost income across the world, and he plans to push for this at the g-8 summit next month in northern ireland. as he wrote in today's "wall

street journal," "i am meeting president obama at the white house to get america's full support for this agenda." the real reason for why the british prime minister is desperately searching for anyone to save the british economy is because he's chosen to impose policies that come straight out of congressman paul ryan's budget playbook. a playbook that has slashed spending so severely that the british economy only managed to avoid a triple-dip recession by a growth rate of, get this, 0.3% for the last quarter. that compares with a growth rate of 2.5% for the united states. the british economy is in such a bad state of repair that prime minister david cameron is looking anywhere for help. and luckily for him, neither mitt romney nor paul ryan are in charge of this nation's economy. thanks so much for watching this afternoon. chris matthews and "hardball" is next.

outrageous. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. two big stories tonight. the irs and benghazi. the president called one outrageous, the other a sideshow. let's start with the outrageous. taxes, if you're honest and pay them, the best feeling you get after april 15th, is, well, that's over with. you try to believe the system is basically fair, that those progressive rates really mean something, that those irs people who go over your returns really are looking to keep people honest and they're fair about it. how else can you deal with this? this is if you don't have some basic faith in the system, you can't even do your return. so this, my progressive independent reasonably co