right now on "the cycle," america's top attorney gets cross-examined on the irs scandal as the intelligence leaks. and a word of caution for president obama, when you -- jon stewart it might be time to start worrying. >> he wound out about the news reports yesterday on the road. >> and yesterday's news that the department of justice seized two months of phone records from ap reporters. i wouldn't be surprised if president obama learned osama bin laden had been killed when he saw himself announcing it on television. [ laughter ] >> the court of public opinion. o.j. simpson makes a plea for his freedom. like 1995 all over again. >> i'm toure. big names coming to your tv sets, but can they deliver like "the cycle"? >> of course not. ♪

the obama administration continues to get hammered on a number of fronts today. attorney general eric holder right now is facing a second straight day of pretty tough questions mainly about the irs singling out specific conservative groups but also for the justice department gathering phone records from the ap. this afternoon, he's not answering to a roomful of unrelenting reporters, however. that's people like us. instead, it's a panel of outraged lawmakers from both sides of the aisle. >> just last week, we learned that irs employees have admittedly targeted conservative groups for additional and unwanted scrutiny. this is outrageous and congress and the american people expect answers and accountability. >> there's been a lot of criticism, in fact, the head of the rnc called for my resignation. >> there doesn't seep to be any acceptance of responsibility in the justice department for things that have gone wrong. >> it seems to me clear that the

actions of the department have in fact impaired the first amendment. >> let me go on to another line of questioning. >> you don't need to try the case. i don't think it worked out well, assigned it, but the case was not over simply because the united states had not become involved. >> yes, right, but the case going to the supreme court was over. >> we do not become involved in 80% of the cases. >> the case was over as a result. the attorney general promised a full investigation. many people are asking how this could have happened in the first place targeting americans based on political beliefs is unconstitutional and incompetence is not a good defense. if that's any indication, the president's opponents are ready to go to battle. >> my question is not about who's going to resign, my question is who's going to jail over the scandal? >> joining us, msnbc contributor e.j. dionne. good to have you here.

this is a serious matter, they're going to investigate it. he listed potential criminal charges including lying to federal investigators or violating the hatch act. that's what we're hearing on the hill. on the other hand, e.j., it's well-known that the irs commissioner at the time of this incident was a george w. bush appointed republican. as important as it it to investigate this, essentially holding a lot of those low-level politicians accountably, don't republicans have a problem that there's a political glass ceiling on this? >> yeah, i think it would be a lot easy your for them if obama had actually appointed the irs commissioner. there are two problems. of course, they shouldn't have targeted on the basis of affiliation. that was wrong and dumb and democrats didn't like it when progressive groups were gone after during the bush years but the other problem here is that i don't think any of these

political groups should be getting social welfare designation understand the 501 c-4 provision. these of basically election groups. they should be under the tax code and if they were, then they'd have to disclose their donors. so if the irs had done this right in the first place, they wouldn't have nationed the question of targeting any particular political group. they just should have said, no, these groups shouldn't have been under this particular provision. >> i totally agree with you 100%, there needs to be increased scrutiny of all of these c-4 groups and we're going to get into that a bit later. but it strikes me, the republicans have an issue with anything associated with the obama administration but they seem to have a particular place in their heart for going after eric holder. maybe i'm seeing things that aren't there. i wanted to get your take on this. when you first came in, you had

this new black panther party affiliation. and there was fast and furious, had was held in contempt of congress last summer. last year, when the original leak came out that has prompted this ap investigation, they were very upset that he wasn't investigating it intensively enough. now, they're obviously upset in the other direction. are they particularly interested in going after eric holder, and why do you think that that might be? >> well, i think that do seem to have it in for eric holder. that list you gave is pretty formidable. and i think the biggest problem is, obvious, on the this ap business. look, i don't feel happy stall with what the justice department did. they didn't even give ap a chance, which the guidelines suggest they should have. to negotiate this, or challenge some of these subpoenas. but it's really odd that people who, a year ago, were saying that the administration wasn't

investigating these leaks hard enough. are now suddenly saying they are the champions of civil liberties. george h. w. bush would say they sound like card-carrying members of the aclu. now, i would welcome that if they wanted to do that consistently, but they don't. so, yeah, they do seem to have it out more for him. although in truth, that is other than secretary of state, the most important job of the administration. >> it is great to see you on the "the cycle." i'm reading your book. "our divided political heart." i'd recommend it to anyone interested in politics. this scandal, or set of scandals, though i'm not ready to call benghazi a scandal. this set of events seems to have legs because they fit into a narrative and then they are portable. they tend to fit into the conservative narrative that government is dangerous and

untrustworthy and should be limited or minimized unless, of course, you get people like newt gingrich who are able to take this and link it to health care as they said this morning on "morning joe." >> why would you trust the bure cre bureaucracy with your health? >> that was monday. they say the government doesn't work with benghazi, doesn't work here with the doj, so with health care, we have to stop them? >> by the way, there are also bureaucrats who protect your air and water. there are bureaucrats who protect your workplace. i just hate the wholesale attack on bureaucrats but i think if you have a narrative that barack obama, "a," will always intrude on your liberties, and, "b," say liar, then you can scrunch all these scandals together. i think the problem is that we should deal with them discreet

problems and i don't think any of them chose the staying power over time. the irs does not seem like the administration was in any way way involved. they may have to go through the general counsel, if the general counsel knew anything. and they're under investigation themselves by the justice department, so holder doesn't even have -- he's defending these subpoenas which i wish he wouldn't, but he doesn't have anything to do with them. yeah, you can put these together, but i have to say i'm getting really sick of the word "narrative" because what it does, it scrunches things together that don't necessarily belong together. >> you don't have to dislike or distrust obama to see there's a thread pulling all of these together which is slack of accountability and lack of transparency in this administration. being a d.c. denizen, e.j., and a reporter, i want to get you to weigh in on something that's

sort of emerging now as a new threat here. that the town is turning on obama. mike allen and jim vanahan in politico, obama's aloof men and hole lear than thou rhetoric have left him with little reservoir of good and small. while being berated by west wing aides on matters big and small now has every incentive to to be as relentless as can be. is that going on down there? >> first of all, to be on the front with ap reporters is not a good way to endear yourself with the press corps. i do think there's another turn in the story, when your guy, i'm talking about democrats here, the partisan-divided d.c., when democrats of obama have gone after it this way, even the ones impatient with him on this or

that or going to start pushing back. you saw that with bill clinton. but a lot of democrats who had their differences with him on nafta or a whole bunch of other issues say wait a minute, we're not going to let these particular attacks stand. so i think it works both ways, yeah, when everything starts going wrong for a moment, the press will turn on you. but i think there's another dynamic that's going to kick in here as well. >> e.j. dionne, lover of democracy, tired of the word narrative, thank you for joining us. the irs story the combination of numbers and letters when you put them together, they smell of secrecy and costs. and some music picked by you, the viewers "in too deep." kind of appropriate. ♪ [ mrs. hutchison ] friday night has always been all fun and games

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get ready for the sexiest topic ever >> what is it? >> did i get your attention? >> yes. >> good. this is important. >> okay. zmr >> it's actually not that sexy, i'm sorry, the topic surrounding the irs. >> big tease. >> i want to put on my accountant hat as we focus on quote/unquote, nonpolitical groups and the 501c groups exempt from federal taxes. groups like the american red cross, the american heart

association, et cetera. the 501 c-4 is a specific nonprofit known as social welfare groups think civic leagues and local volunteer fire departments which according to the irs function merely for the purpose of betterment and social improvements. unlike their cousins, however, c-4s may engage some some political activities, this is according to the irs, so long as that is not their primary activity. it's a marquee definition that's given c-4s a whole lot of wiggle room to play politicses. c-4s are attractive because they're tax exempt and mostly because they allow donors to remain anonymous. they've become the vehicle of choice for dark money flowing into influence elections allowing liberals to carl rhodes cross roads gps to shield their donors and get a little tax

break from you, the american taxpayer. to help bring this down further, we're bringing in a specialist. david k. johnson is national a tax expert but pulitzer prize recipient and also a column wrist at "tax analyst." david, thank you for helping to us sort this out. i hope you can give some of the historic context these organizations have professored from this. >> since 1913, under a tariff act, we've had a rule about the civic engagement groups and it is that they must exclusively be involved in social welfare. now, the irs, in 1959, under regulation put in that exclusively means primarily. and karl rove who starts this with cross roads gps has apparently defined primarily

49.9%. and i would ask is there any adult in america who has had a romantic relationship who thinks 49.9% of the time is exclusive. >> this is a sexy segment. >> yeah, that's what i'm trying. trying hard there, toure. if you go to the page for cross roads you won't find social welfare or sink, or any of those terms. what you'll find is a lengthy attack on president obama. i'm glad people want to challenge president obama. but it's not with the tax here. the real scandal here is that these organizations should not be allowed with a tax exemption to engage in this behavior. and the problem faced by the irs workers is, the irs in real terms has been trumped 17% in the last ten years and its work burden has gone like this. guess what, people are trying to find out ways to get around this. you don't have to ask the irs for permission to be a 501 c-4,

you can self-declare. some of the groups that did, we now know from their documentation basically put a target on themselves, we'd like approval to do this. of course, they got identified. it's not right to pick them because they had tea party or patriot in their name any more than it's right to stop young men on the street because of their skin color. the irs is trying to deal with the conflict between what the law says and the regulation. >> david, given the budgetary restraints of the irs as you're pointing out. since fy-2010, the budget has been reduced since $1 billion. is it possible given the resources to apply the kind of uniform scrutiny that they should be applying? again, it's never acceptable to target politically. >> that's right. >> but can they, can they possibly apply the level of scrutiny they should be applying to all these groups? >> no, and they're not applying

it also to people who self-report. you i understand get a salary. our taxes are taken out of our paychecks before we get there. our cuts don't affect our tax paying. but business owners and investors, they're being audited less and less. one thing we know is unverified income, things other than your wages or a pension, for example, they don't get fully reported. the real scandal here is that irs cannot do its -- by the way, i disagree with the word "targeted." targeted means to attack. if you apply for a permit, even if you're wrongly selected on the basis of your name, that's not an attack. i think that's an unfortunate word in this discussion. remember, they've turned down some democratic groups. they've revoked the permits of some democratic groups at the irs, during the obama administration. >> well, look, you're not going to get any complaints from me when it comes to the need for tax reform. i completely agree. it's also fun to talk about ways -- find ways in which we can make this less of a scandal.

or it's not the real scandal and there are other real scandals, but clearly this is a big deal. and heads need to roll. who gets fired, though? in your expert opinion, when you know of this system that's a mess, this crazy bureaucracy, who gets fired? who's responsible ultimately? >> well, we don't have an irs commissioner. we have an acting commissioner. steve miller, he used to run the exempt organizations. low wiz learned the woman who let the cat out of the bag friday because she knew it was going to come out the following wednesday was his produproceed . my guess is both of them are toast. there's no posturing on anything we've seen in a criminal investigation. and it certainly shouldn't fall on front line people who are the tax police. the equivalent of cops who walk around in blue uniforms. they certainly shouldn't have their heads taken off for trying to figure out how do we deal

with the conflicts that are in the law without any real guidance. >> you say it's ultimately about the irs, having a difficult time figuring out who deserves 501 c-4 status and who believes they're nonexempt status when they are? >> and the law says exclusively for social welfare, then that should be what the standard is. it's the irs that put primarily in there. in the rule that the irs put in implementing regulation in 1959. i think the real are scandal here is how did karl rove get away with it. how did bill burton get away with this? he these little organizations that doesn't know how to fill out the forms, they're basically saying, investigate me because we didn't know how to fill out the forms. >> congress follows the laws. administrative law making is very important. and here i think done very poorly. when you're talking about what occurred in 1959, lawrence

o'donnell here at msnbc but working on the finance committee has been reporting on this for several days. the problem of the irs coming in, if i understand you right, diluting the very law put into place to get the politics out of this category? >> that's exactly right. i'm going to plug my current book "the fine print." it's about this issue of regulation that nobody's paying attention to. it's full of stories about things like there's a tax that you're forced to pay. >> what's it called? >> and nobody knows about these things because the news media doesn't cover the regulatory world. >> david cay johnson, we'll have to have another conversation on that. thank you for that. >> thank you. "fine print." >> up 96 to the irs to the ap and even benghazi, the president's role in all of these so-called scandals. that's part of the conversation next.

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mr. president, when did you find out about the irs? >> targeting conservative groups. >> i first learned about it from the same news reports that i think most people learned about this. i think it was on friday. [ laughter ] >> no one at the office thought to run that up the flag pole to you before reporting it? let's say the acting irs? actually the favorite part of that was i think it was on friday, i think. when was that i found out the powerful political arm of government found out -- let's see, the beer summit with reverend wright was on thursday. thursday, we spent listening in on random phone calls on drone missiles. and the mosque praying, yeah, it was friday. >> democratic president, jon

stewart, there's trouble in river city. critics own both sides of the aisle, some calling him bystander in chief. losing its patience after giving the ready station a relative free pass in the first four years and the bystander stuff isn't just conservatives targeting groups. the white house apparently learned about the justice ap scandal from tv news as well. you're welcome. >> when did the president find out about the department of justice's subpoena for the associated press? >> yesterday. let me be clear. we don't have independent knowledge of that. he found out about the news reports yesterday on the road. >> this was a very serious -- a very serious leak. and a very, very serious leak. i've been a prosecutor since 1976. and i have to say that this is among, if not the most serious, it is within the top two or three most serious leaks that i've ever seen.

>> the white house is not supposed to meddle in the doj business but how could the president not have any knowledge about the own investigation into what the top calls one or two of the biggest threats to national security? perhaps choosing information reachinging the president's ear providing him with plausible deniability. what's worse for the president knowing and not doing or simply not knowing. let's talk about it. first of all, i'm glad to know we are providing the president with a service. i'm informing him of all the scandals that he needs to be aware of. i think that the i don't know defense is pathetic. there's one of two options here. imcompetence or dishonesty. if incompetence is one of those, that fails the smell taste. over a year in the offing, was

not -- you know, was never taken to the president. and the president was never informed of it, likewise on ap, i can't believe, as we just said that this huge leak which i know the president knew about, did not tell someone at doj to just inform the president that we're going to be investigating this in a pretty aggressive way. you should be aware. i just don't buy it. i think the interesting thing is you don't have to attach political motivations to this. as conservatives i know that will be a motivating factor going forward. we don't have to go there. there doesn't have to be malice, i think, for this to be a politically relevant and interesting story that can last through 2014 or 2016. if the big news is that this is just mismanagement and sort of overriding bureaucracy run amok, that's a big story. and it's a win for conservatives. conservatives can say, well, that's why we've been championing limited government.

that's why we have these philosophies and that's why they manage. they can go on the mismanagement thing at the very least. and i think that's compelling. it's harder to prove the paranoia of helicopter paranoia stuff. >> i'm not sure i believe all of that. from the irs shrinking 17% when you have fewer people doing the same amount of work, perhaps even more work -- >> that's why it happened. it doesn't explain why he didn't know about it. >> the answer is not smaller government. more effective government is actually the answer but what really we need to approach here is what is the larger thing here? does this scandal go to a character flaw about obama? does the narrative to use e.j. dionne's favorite word actually come together to some final point, and if it does, then you're going to have more political and historical resonance. you talk about monicagate.

about the weakness for women. when you talk about iraq, that was about bush, all that we need in our gut, we don't need to actually need to read books and find out what's going on. this going to coalesce into something larger? i don't think so. i don't know if we have to wait to see, but nothing is there yet. and maybe it will come out and it will be incorrect but, you know, it's got to coalesce into something. >> i think you're both wrong. i think number one, there are 2.8 million people in the federal government. a range of activities at a low level that even an effective president will not know about. with regard to the doj investigation in particular, this has happened so far on the information flow exactly how it should. there are only seven people in the internal guidelines authorized to have contacts between the investigations between the white house and the doj. why? because sometimes, the doj does investigation that lead back to the white house. we saw that with scooter libby.

>> but the president has to be made aware. >> he is aware. >> he is not aware. he found out from the news. >> no, let me speak -- >> there's a difference being aware of the investigation and knowing what is in the subpoena. >> he would not be doing operational details. nor would you want him to be. holder recused him because holder and the president who are in meetings every week are potentially witnesses. the fact that there's so many people in the media and particularly in the republican party who don't understand that or willfully misrepresenting is its own problem as to how people understand doj. as to the narrative point are, i agree that washington focuses on that. this is not about the president's personality or whether he's angry enough or whether he's aloof or this or that. this about is whether the irs thing went all the way to the top of the irs which would be a republican official. jon stewart's joke has the wrong premise because i don't expect

the president to be dialed in on 2.8 million activities. >> is he accountable? >> the accountability question is how do you go up the irs. but the information chain has not been a problem. >> and what came out of the i.g. report about the irs casuscanda too, it was low-level bureaucrats, a term i actually hate, who targeted the groups. they said, no, you can't do that. then they went back and changed it again. management said, no, you can't do that and put a process in place to make sure it didn't happen again. in some ways it's comforting that somebody was aware this was not the right thing. the part that's troubling is that this information wasn't shared with congress. i think you're right, there's a difference between the perception, the media perception and the reality. if you take each of these quote/unquote scandals. the doj would be a scandal if the president was involved. >> exactly. >> the irs, it's completely

unrealistic to expect that he would have knowledge of what was happening in low-level bureaucrats in cincinnati. he's not a god. but, remember, guys, back in the beginning of his first term when he was the autocratic dictator of all the czars? >> yes. >> remember that? >> go back to those days. >> back in court, we're watching two tabloid cases today for some reason. first, in phoenix, convicted killer jodi arias is back from the sentencing phase. right now, the jury is weighing what is calls aggravating factors on whether arias should be sentenced to death. if the jury decides this crime was cruel, the defense then begins mitigation in a last-ditch effort to save her life. while in vegas, o.j. simpson is on the stand trying to convince the judge that his lawyer botched the robbery case. o.j. wants a judge to overturn

his 9 to 33-year prison sentence claiming his then lawyer poorly advised him. >> was any use of force discussed? >> no, there wasn't. we all said you couldn't do it. and i wouldn't. >> that's what i'm asking you, what was his advice regarding the entire plan? >> that if they didn't give me the stuff, we have to call police. >> okay. >> and that's what i told everybody involved. that if they don't give it to me, i'm going to get the police in it. >> it's been nearly two decades since the nation watched o.j. simpson's white bronco race through the streets of orange county, california, leading police on a chase. then people were glued to the tv in 1995 when the verdict comes down, if it doesn't fit, you must acquit. perhaps the most shocking of o.j. how different he looks now. what do you think of o.j. then and now. sharon plainer says, that's what prison time will do to you.

can't do the time, don't do the crime. looks like he's doing the crime just fine. like us on facebook. you know you want to weigh in on this. check out the latest episode of my tweet bag. this time, our friend helps me sift through the best of the best. straight ahead, "the new york times" best-seller "men are from mars women are from venus" sparked a worldwide conversation. now he and co-author are discussing now men and women are in the workplace. ♪

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did you hear that dwight? >> yes, did you hear that michael. >> no, respect. r-e-s-p-e-c-t. find out what it means to me. >> did you hear? "the office" premieres its final episode tomorrow night. the new tv lineup the next on "the cycle." stay tuned. this is men and women at work. what we all want out of a work day. it's a battleground for the sexes. it's inspired by a new book "work with me" by john gray and barbara annis. gray wrote the best-seller "men are from mars, women are from venus." into the workplace, based on a survey of 100,000 men and women

who sat down and talked with you guys. we've got everyone here. six people. gender bender. >> three on three. >> three on three. i want to start with asking you guys about one of the findings in the book which you say women tend to take negative feelings or commands and phrase them as a question which sometimes is counterproductive. you write women will commonly express their disapproval or disagreement through a rhetorical indirect question. why is that? >> go ahead. >> so it's interesting, women tend to use more suggestive language versus direct language, and they assume that men understand that they're actually giving a direction. and sometimes, it's an open-ended question. the reason is to be more inclusive and not kind of confronting their male co-worker. >> and her intent is to bring togetherness, often men can interpret her questioning as slowing him down. often men want to just, hey, let's just take action. let's get to the point.

let's get it done. why do we have to talk so much? part of what we want to do is help men understand the value of talking more, the value of asking questions. and unintended consequences of not asking questions because we men, when a woman is not speaking up, we often just ignore here as opposed to saying, hey, barbara, what do you think about that. it's amazing to me. we call these blind spots. men think she has nothing to say when really she has plenty to say. when she's waiting for in a sense for someone to invite her into the conversation. >> john, one of the things you point out in the book. it's not just cultural, it's biological where men use heir hemispheres sequencially. it's flight or fright. women want to use their problems to work through it holistically. how do we work through ways of problem solving? >> there's another factor,

adding to what you're saying, ask women, how many women have told men, what are you thinking? and they will say, all over the world, all in one voice, he says nothing. >> nothing. >> and there's actually a hard wiring that men can actually think about nothing. >> i believe that. >> which is impossible for women to do. >> i'm thinking about that right now. >> some of the neuroscientists point out that men actually have an off switch in their brain that allows them to forget whatever is bothering them. whereas, women will take it in over and over again. >> yes, we will. i had the delightful experience sitting in a cab this morning, hearing the cab driver listen to you guys on wnyc to taking calls today. i said i think we're having them on today. you said women will move mountains if they feel they're valued at work. >> yes, absolutely. >> this is exciting to me. you had a caller from a guy who owned a wine shop and a woman who worked in a doctor's office.

she was talking about her value at work comes from interactions and working for a great boss. and the wine guy said i like solving problems. good competition, solving problems. it has to do with the hormone testosterone. testosterone helps lower stress in men. the hormone with harmony, collaboration and team work that's oxytocin and that's for women. and men are feeling valued because they would listen. and men have a blind spot when it comes to communication. we don't realize how important it is to take a few minutes more to dive deeper to ask for questions so women feel she's part of the team. >> barbara, i was looking the your website, you had a quote from american express' chief diversity officer. she was saying the higher a woman rose the more dominant male behaviors around her.

to me, that's kind of the core of the problem, right? what do you do to either change that culture of male dominant behavior? or should you be training women to act more like men to get ahead? or maybe a little bit of both. what do you think is the direction here? >> great question. >> great question. >> it's not about having women fit in the male paradigm. it's really about changing the culture in the paradigm. with american express, i've been working with them for about three years it really shifted dramatically. here's the thing. men have the best of intentions, right. sometimes, there's incongruence between intention and behavior. and what we saw of the clients as well, is that, you know, they just needed to be able to walk the talk and understand that women feel valued in a different way. men feel valued through getting to the destination. women feel value through the journey to the destination. one last thing i want to say, that's the number weren't reason

why women leave organizations or stay, is that sense of not feeling valued. >> speaking from here on mars, we're going to keep working on it. >> thank you. >> thank you. up next, we're going to do a preview of the new television lineup. "variety" senior division program manager will talk to us. about the fall lionelup. >> what's that? >> that's superhero ward. the cyberspy. the whole world's in on the action. fact is, when it comes to your smile, if you're not whitening, you're yellowing. crest 3d white whitestrips go below the enamel surface to whiten as well as $500 professional treatments, at a fraction of the cost. guaranteed, or your money back. crest. life opens up when you do. want a whiter smile today?

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ameriprise financial. more within reach. great tv shows are like close friends. they come into living room and make you laugh and think and maybe cry. above all they try not to disappoint you. eventually they leave you. what will be the next shows to reel you in and then one daybreak your heart? it could be this. "brooklyn 99." >> this precinct is doing fine. i want to make it the best one in brooklyn. >> where do we start? >> we start with him. >> canvass the neighborhood. why you're out there buy yourself a tie. >> oh, i'm wearing a tie right now. check it out. secret tie. >> i think you're kind of overdoing it with the manscaping. >> i'm all in. or this. the michael j. fox show. >> i said i was on the phone. >> doesn't matter. we have the respond. sfwl since we're both here, can i get you to sign an autograph. my uncle's alzheimer's.

>> i actually have parkinson's. >> either way. >> for 20 years he's poured everything he had into work. now he pours it all into us. >> wake up, wake up, wake up, wake up. >> yay! >> enough with the kale. we get it, you're white. >> can i have a personal victory right now? we are starving. >> i'll give that one a try. or this. marvel's agents of hs-h-i-e-l-d >> scary men in dark suits who come after guys like you. >> is that who i think it is? >> she's just the pilot. >> that looks pretty cool. the up fronts are going on now. that's when networks unveil their new shows for advertisers. >> i don't understand. >> tv is at a critical moment in history with major shows like idol, mad men, breaking bad leaving or losing ratings.

networks struggling to deal with the dvr and audience fragmentation. to make sense of the future of television, brian steinberg, senior tv editor at variety. brian, look, there's no creative that will be good enough to counteract the power of the technological enemies of network cable, dvr, and the internet which have combined to shrink networks' ratings. can the networks save themselves? >> they think so. we'll see what happens. they're trying to put up something you can watch on tvs and phones and dvrs. trying to get new ratings coming out that will measure viewing patterns no matter how you watch the show. it's all in the future. they'll try like heck. we'll see what happens. >> what about content creation? it seems like the cable networks have had all the big ground breaking shows. so pr sopranos, breaking bad, mad men all from cable. are there so many cable offerings? are networks doing something wrong in content creation? what programs are particular are you excited coming from the

networks this season? >> what's happening, the big broadcast guys now have to do these big mass audiences. when sponsors buy tv, they buy cbs, nbc and the rest for big audiences. that means people who see everything. american idol, ncis. not hard to understand. easily to follow. you can't put that on -- tlc is more of a narrow, niche consumer. i would say the cable is like your favorite magazine. they go after a certain audience like "people" or "esquire." the broadcast guys are these kind of huge circus tents that need to get as many people under the tend at possible. you're going to see "mad men" on amc. might not work on cbs. >> one of my favorite shows on television is "duck dynasty." i have not been shy of communicating that to viewers. it's a really family about real values. fun to watch. sort of an unembarrassed appeal to traditional family vams which i love. i love a & e did it. what do you think the reason that shows like "duck dynasty"

which broke a ton of records in ratings are doing so well and what do they portend maybe about the future of tv? >> again, i think these shows go after a certain stripe of viewer. that finds a certain awning on a certain cable network. i don't think "duck" would do as well on abc. it wouldn't have a broad appeal like michael j. fox or friends or seinfeld. >> but they have beards. >> so does "game of thrones." i just don't know if it has the kind of broad everyone has to watch it kind of appeal that "shield" might have come this fall. great show. big audience. it is not to be ignored. it does well because it airs where it airs. >> okay. >> brian, people do like ducks. >> good point, ari. great point. >> good one. >> you're at home wondering, how does this work -- how does this work if people know what's on the tv shows. they see the clips like we just saw. what is the purpose of an up front in the business if people already know what the shows are? >> well, these are kind of like

big advertiser parties. the networks are trying to show up with the best they have to offer. they're trying to sell a bulk of their ad inventory for the fall. five broadcast english speaking guys alone have 9 billion to sell. just in primetime. not including morning time, "today," "snl," "jay leno," what have you. they're convincing them to shell out the bucks now rather than hold them back for later. >> not only have you educated ari about what an up front is, but you went to the up fronts yourself. what are some of the shows you think people will be watching this summer? >> this summer i think a couple things. a lot going on this summer. the five broadcast guys are tired of cable stealing their show. they're ramping up their fwam. cbs "under the dome." stephen king novel about a transparent dome put over a big town. lot of special effects. steven spielberg is involved. might get a lot of attention immediately. next summer, fox is bringing back "24."

for 12 shows rather than 24 hours. >> hmm. bri brian, if the networks don't allow cursing they're never going to catch up to cable. but thank you for being here. we're going to be back with a final word right after this. otherworldly things. but there are some things i've never seen before. this ge jet engine can understand 5,000 data samples per second. which is good for business. because planes use less fuel, spend less time on the ground and more time in the air. suddenly, faraway places don't seem so...far away. ♪ the wright brothers became the first in flight. [ goodall ] i think the most amazing thing is how like us these chimpanzees are. [ laughing ] [ woman ] can you hear me? and you hear your voice? oh, it's exciting! [ man ] touchdown confirmed. we're safe on mars. [ cheers and applause ] ♪

hi. [ baby fussing ] ♪

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and if you switch, you could save up to $423. liberty mutual insurance -- responsibility. what's your policy? all right. that does it for us here on "the cycle." martin, all yours. good afternoon. wednesday, may 15th. and the storm in the tea party controversy is being whipped up into a tornado. zbr president obama does damage control. >> you just can't use national defense to protect the white house.

>> laws were probably broken. >> obama being compared to president nixon on this, how does he think that. >> people who make those comparisons need to check their history. >> we are examining the facts to see if there were criminal violations sf violations. >> the inspector general's report says inappropriate criteria was used for 18 months. >> what's most disturbing, the inspector general couldn't rule out there was a broader problem. >> the report's findings are intolerable and inexcusable. >> these are things you typically see in the third world. >> the obama administration has valued its agenda more than its credibility. >> my question isn't about who's going to resign. >> the president is angry as hell about this as he should be. >> my question is, who's going to jail over this scandal? >> good afternoon. and we begin with the growing clamber for