primary activities are social welfare in nature. >> and primary means technically you can do 49% political. >> we have never been that precise. >> i know. but i'm asking you could say that? >> yes. >> and after the supreme court decision at citizens union -- >> united. >> united, whatever. the applications for this type of corporations increase dramatically, did it not? >> they did double. >> you don't have to be a political expert to know that there was an increase in political donations given to 501 c 4s. >> i think that if one looks at the reporting on the forms 990 of political activities it will show an explosion in that money, as well. >> and so, again, it is almost an invitation as the law is written for abuse in terms of political activities for

corporations that primarily are supposed to be doing a social service work, is that not correct? >> it is something that we have to look at closely, yes, sir. >> i mean, you should have wanted to look at this earlier before this, what my friends call a scandal. i mean, this is wrong to abuse the tax system. this screams out for tax reform, does it not? >> i think it is an area right for redefinition and reform. yes, sir. >> regardless of whether democrats or republicans did something like this, the outrage should still be there, is that not correct? >> the outrage as to -- >> the abuse. >> yes. >> this section of the law has been abused by government employees. not by all of them but some of them. our job is to find out who they are. and all i want to get from you, mr. miller and you it's your

integrity on the line. it is the president's, the administrations, irs employees that work hard and it is the congress that is involved in this. people are losing confidence in our government and i hope that you feel the same sense to find out what caused this, how it could happen and help us to restore the confidence that americans should have in their government. i yield the balance of my time. >> mr. ryan is recognized for five minutes. >> we is have established and you have acknowledged that you were briefed on may 3 that there was improper criteria used for tax exempt applications. at the briefing you were told that tax exempt applications were targeting if they contain terms such as tea party, patriots, those that criticized how the country was run. after that knowing of the

practices you sent letters to congress acknowledging our investigation of the allegations but omitted that the discrimnar actions were taking place. then you came here to a subcommittee hearing on this issue on july 25th. where we are investigating the filters used to hold up the 501 c 4 applications of groups. specifically, you were told that these conservative groups felt like they were being harassed and you were asked this question, quote, what kind of letterer or action is being taken place at this time that you are aware of? and knowing full well these filters were used you said i am aware that some 200 applications fell into this category that the determination letter process. we did group these organizations together to ensure consistency, to ensure quality.

we continue to work those cases. that was your answer to this committee. after you had received the briefing that these targeting was occurring which you earlier acknowledged was outrageous. the law governing how you must respond to congressional inquiries requires you to tell not only the truth but to tell the whole truth. your quote cannot conceal or cover up a material fact. how was that not misleading this committee? you knew the targeting was taking place. you knew the terms tea party patriots were being used. you acknowledged a minute ago they were outrageous. when you were asked about this that was the answer you gave us? how can we not conclude that you misled this committee? >> that was a lot of questions? >> it is one. >> i did not mislead the committee.

i stand my answer then and now. harassment discussion was part of that question implied political motivation. there is a discussion going on. there is no political motivation. >> let me ask it again. >> may i answer? >> i am going to give you clarity. what kind of letter or action is being taken place at this time that you are aware of? >> so the discussion of the context of that and again we need to go back and look at the context. there was the listing. there was the treatment of the cases. my understanding to that question was the treatment of the cases because all of the letters that he was talking about i am hearing that people are complaining about letters. my response was to that. we found out about those letters. we dealt with with them as has been explained. we gave more time. we went and talked to them about

expanding the way they could answer it. and we dealt i think fairly and successfully with the list issue. >> you knew of our concern of this targeting. you knew of the allegations reported. we brought you here to talk about it. you had received a briefing that this targeting was taking place but you did not divulge that to this committee. you said in your answer that you were aware some 200 applications fell into this quote category. we did these groupings together to ensure consistency and quality. you didn't mention targeting based on ideology. you didn't mention targeting based on buzz words like tea party or patriots. you knew that but didn't mention this to the committee. do you not think that is a very incomplete answer? >> i answered the question truthfully. >> you gave us a list the other day of approved tax exempt

applications through 2009, may. we don't know how long these applications sat or how long it took to process them. just from mr. rangel's question the irs was doing this because they were concerned about political activities by nonprofits. some of these that were approved were chattanooga organized for action, the progressive leadership alliance and the progressive usa. if you were concerned about political activity, did you have targeting lists that contained words like progressive or organizing in their names? >> so let's step back again and let me walk you through the process. we centralized cases based on political activity evidenced in the file. we took a short cut on some of it but we collected, to be blunt, more than tea party

cases. mr. george's strong report -- >> there were no progressive or organizing buzz words used for targeting. >> that's correct. anytime it was seen that political activity was part of the file -- >> time is expired. mr. mcdermott is recognized. these days congress can't seem to agree on whether the sun is shining but this issue has brought us together in a way unlike anything you see here. i'm chris jansing. we are continuing to listen to the house ways and means hearing. we have congressman joe crowley, a member of the committee who stepped out for us. good morning. >> good to be with you. >> pretty tough questioning from paul ryan, your colleague to steve miller, the acting irs commissioner and has resigned. the implication was he lied to your committee.

do you believe he did? >> lie is a pretty big word. i would describe his questioning as badgering. i think what we really need to do is get the answers. right now unfortunately what you are seeing is a break down on the process. it is about a partisanship and trying to link this to the white house. it's the same old same old exactly what people are really angry about what is happening in washington today. we should be outraged by what took place. i am. no political entity ought to be investigated or gone after by the irs regardless of their political believes. it is clear that both conservative and progressive groups were targeted. that's not very clear by the republican questioning right now but we know that to be the case. >> i heard your opening statement and i wonder because you mention chairman camp and all of that. do you believe that he and other

republicans are more interested in going after the white house than they are in getting to the bottom of this? >> up until this morning i was under the impression that we were working in a bipartisan way leading up to my opening statement which i was not allowed to give. if i had the opportunity to go through my opening statement i was applauding chairman camp for his bipartisanship. his opening statement made me change my questioning. >> your democratic colleague, charlie rangel crystallized what a lot of people hope will come out of this hearing. he asked how far did this cancer go and how quickly can we cut it out. can you get to the bottom of it? >> as the inspector general said in his report is that it was contained within the irs. no outside entity was involved in this investigation or of this

persecution as you may say. so clearly the white house was not involved. the inspector general, a bush appointee said that no white house influence was a part of what took place during a bush appointees time at the irs. >> obviously we have seen two people, the acting commissioner himself and his number two who are gone. but do you think it is going to stop there? a name brought up is louis lerner who was managing the irs exempt organizations at the time this happened. >> she came before our subcommittee on oversight last week. when i asked her the question whether or not the irs was engaged in investigating political 501 c 4s she failed to answer that question. two days later she planted a question at a press event only to then use that opportunity to apologize what the irs had been

doing. when asked why she hadn't come clean earlier she said no one ever asked. the truth was i had asked in congress at a committee hearing two days earlier. if you are ms. lerner you are worried about your career right now. >> to get to the heart of what happened here, congressman, what are the key questions you need to have answered today? how do we figure out what happened here? >> i think even the president and secretary of the treasury have said and we have learned this morning from the testimony of the inspector general that no one outside the irs, we know it is contained in the irs itself. now we have to make sure that something this outrageous never happens again, that we put in place safe guards. the american people want to know that this entity that has so much information about our personal lives is actually doing its job and not going after americans for what they believe.

that's what i as a democrat want to see happen regardless of what administration is in charge. and then i believe my republican colleagues want to see that, as well. we need to stop the political gainsmanship and ask the questions, get the answers and fix the system. >> we have three congressional investigations. a justice department probe. the president has suggested with all of that going on there is no need for independent council. former special council to bill clinton told "wall street journal" that a probe run by the administration may not silence critics and that maybe a special council should be considered. what is your position on that? >> i think at this point in time we should let congress do its work right now. the one thing we haven't had is a congress doing its job. we have been bogged down in partisanship. let's see if the congress can act like adults and ask the questions that need to be asked and get the answers. if after all of that process you say more hearings scheduled in

the future. as many hearings as possible. if that fails we can look. >> congressman joe crowley, you are good to come out and talk to us about this. thank you so much. >> good to be with you. >> let's go back to the questioning. was preparing a statement to put out during this time last week? >> yeah. i don't know that we knew at that time or not. >> would have ms. lerner known that when she testified before this committee? >> don't know that. >> did you know ms. lerner was going to appear on a panel called news from the irs and treasury at the american bar association conference? >> i knew she was appearing. i did not know the topic. >> did you or any of your subordinates direct lerner to make the public statement acknowledging the targeting of tax exempt groups? >> i it was a prepared q&a.

>> do you know ms. roady, a member of irs's advisory council? >> i do. >> was her question to ms. lerner about targeting conservative groups planned in advance? >> i believe that we talked about that, yes. >> did you ever have any contact either by e-mail, phone or in person with the white house regarding the targeting of tax exempt groups from 2010 until today? >> absolutely not. >> how about the department of treasury? >> i certainly would have had some conversations with treasury in my role as acting commissioner because i reported to them. on this topic it would have been i believe very recent to that conversation to have taken place. >> how about president obama's reelection campaign? >> no. >> did you ever have contact

with anyone associated with organizing for america or its nonprofit organizing for action? >> no. >> did you have contact with anyone associated with propublica? >> i don't believe so but there was when this whole thing came out that was previously referenced i think the irs might have talked to them, yes. >> something that would probably clarify your involvement in any of this, mr. miller, would be if you submitted to this committee your e-mails, phone records and personal scheduleal from 2010 until you resigned. would you be willing to do that? >> i would have to see what is legally appropriate. >> we can subpoena those records. >> i understand. i am saying i don't know. we'll talk. >> mr. chairman, i would suggest that we work hard to get those records. i would also encourage you to

contact ms. rody and ms. lerner to testify before this committee at our earliest possible time. i have one last question, mr. miller. you really are not taking any acknowledgment that you knew anything and that you didn't do anything wrong. you have said that numerous times on the record today that you did nothing wrong. so i find it hard to believe why did you resign? or why are you resigning? >> i never said i didn't do anything wrong. what i said is contained in the questions. i resigned because as the acting commissioner what happens in the irs whether i was personally involved or not stopped at my desk. and so i should be held accountable for what happens whether i was personally involved or not a very different

question, sir. >> i hope you would be willing to submit all of your e-mails, phone records, any personal meetings that you had in the last four years. and i think that would really i think keep your reputation in good standing with this committee and on the american people. >> obviously we will have to talk aboutt that. i'm not saying no. i just don't know. >> thank you, mr. miller. i yield back my time. >> mr. neil is recognized. >> earlier you referenced an article from usa today. i would like for the purpose of this hearing to insert an article from bloomberg news that appeared on may 14th indicating that there were democratic leaning organizations that were the focus of the irs, as well. >> without objection. >> thank you. mr. chairman, when i woke up this morning as i do just about every morning now i went to my phone and i was curious about

what the word of the day would be. and the word of the day because webster is in my hometown. you have rejected the term targeted. >> i think it is a term that implies something that didn't exist here. >> let me draw you into the weeds. by sheer irony it is suggested that they use the term litmus test which they define as a single factor as an attitude, event or a fact that is decisive in choosing these organizations. would you say there was a litmus test? >> no, sir. the litmus test if any was political activity. >> i have one of my constituents who contacted my office yesterday outlining a situation. he is treasurer of a small nonprofit, a volunteer organization. their association was told by the irs employees that were not

required to file a form 990. this past november they received a letter from the irs saying their tax exempt status was revoked for failure to file the forms. the irs told them they no longer needed to file the forms but instead of notifying them about the problem and allowing them to fix it especially in light of the advice given by the irs the irs revoked the tax exempt status. they have to reapply and pay. this is a nonprofit that has been around for 60 years. taxpayers should not be intimidated by the irs. the american people should not be afraid of the irs. we should be able to rely on advice that they provide and not be punished for it. i hope we will have an opportunity to work on this specific constituent issue. i want to turn to a topic of recent focus by the irs and that's obviously the question

today and it's allegation that the political views caused them to become that focus. we all know that is outrageous is unacceptable and a thorough review will get us to the bottom of this. let's not forget something this morning. even with the egregious actions that have been acknowledged by the irs -- >> we are listening to a democrat from massachusetts talking about a problem his constituents have had showing the democrats want to show they are not going to be appallgists for the mess. i want to bring in politico reporters listening along with us to this. patrick, i'm sure you heard what the congressman had to say when i was questioning him. he said he came in thinking this was a bipartisan pursuit. he says the republicans are

playing politics. from what you have heard so far how much is going to help us do that and how much is politics? >> there is a lot of politics at play here. what you are seeing is a subtext of how much larger we can expand the scandal or limit it. the congressman made it clear that this was limited to the irs and there are no tentacles to the white house. you have republicans trying to investigate whether or not the obama reelection campaign was at all a search query from the irs, as well. politics are all over this thing. the nice thing about this in a weird way in some ways it is a perfect scandal that democrats can be outraged and republicans can be outraged. it is the one scandal that the president has been adamant about being outraged. there is universal outrage and where the politics settle out is what we are watching.

>> both parties have indicated they want to get to the bottom of this. a lot of times most of the time these hearings can be for show. what is the likelihoodt that this is going to produce something significant, that we are going to figure out what happened here and figure out how to fix it? >> you can hear some of the congressmen, there istration because we haven't learned anything new from this hearing. one of the congressman asked why did he resign because it seems like the answers weren't terribly forthcoming. this is the first of several hearings. so we'll see what happens as we go forward. this is the tip of the iceberg. i would sit back and i'm sure more is going to come out because senator baucus said he is sure these hearings are going to yield some information eventually. >> you heard the frustration of congressman crowley who says they are trying to tie it to the white house when there is no

evidence this is about the white house. the implications for the president are pretty obvious. this is at the very least a distraction at a time when he has pretty significant second term priorities. he came out yesterday. he was pretty forceful in what he did. the man we are looking at right now is gone. the number two is gone. is it going to be enough to fire people? >> i do think you will see more than the two ousted. there are implications for any white house in the sense that this goes to the heart of good governance and faith and credibility of your government to do its job. for the obama administration we are starting to see the sidelines is there are attempts to link what is going on here with the obama care because irs is going to be in charge of enforcing the individual mandate. so you have a lot of republican leaders saying if the irs can't

be trusted with disinformation can i trust them with medical records. >> moved to head the division that heads obama care. >> a lot of agendas colliding here on capitol hill. >> we know that the president is going to be out in baltimore today. he was in texas last week. he is going to be talking economy in baltimore today. i am going to read a little bit. the president as usual acts as if all of this is totally unconnected to him. he is shocked. it's unacceptable. but this is his administration. a president sets a mood, a tone. what is the white house strategy on this going forward? >> i think one of the biggest problems with these scandals is it reinforces some of the

biggest criticisms you hear from the president's detractors that there is this big brother element. we saw this during the campaign with mitt romney when the 47% thing came out. it reinforced the negative things already said about this administration. that is one of the hardest things that they are going to have to move past. >> jackie, we have to take a break. thanks to you. thanks to patrick for sitting with us. we will be back with more of the hearing. mine was earned in djibouti, africa. 2004. vietnam in 1972. [ all ] fort benning, georgia in 1999. [ male announcer ] usaa auto insurance is often handed down from generation to generation. because it offers a superior level of protection and because usaa's commitment to serve military members, veterans, and their families is without equal.

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[ male announcer ] enbrel may lower your ability to fight infections. serious, sometimes fatal events, including infections, tuberculosis, lymphoma, other cancers, nervous system and blood disorders, and allergic reactions have occurred. before starting enbrel, your doctor should test you for tuberculosis and discuss whether you've been to a region where certain fungal infections are common. you should not start enbrel if you have an infection like the flu. tell your doctor if you're prone to infections, have cuts or sores, have had hepatitis b, have been treated for heart failure, or if you have symptoms such as persistent fever, bruising, bleeding, or paleness. if you've had enough, ask your dermatologist about enbrel. . congressman from ohio pressing commissioner miller about why the woman who was in charge of the division that was overseeing these special tax exempt status was moved over to the division that oversees obama

care. >> time is expired. gentleman, thank you very much for your testimony. let me key off of something you said. you said foolish mistakes were made. i think the president said it better. he said that the handling of those tax exempt applications in that process at the irs was outrageous and intolerable. no excuse. and as much as we know that the folks at irs have a thankless job because they have to tell their fellow americans that they may be audited or they have to do this work under staffed, we have to maintain the confidence in the system because it is a voluntary system of payment of our taxes. >> i agreed. >> you are right it was a foolish mistake but the president is more correct that it was outrageous and

intolerable. now, let me also focus on something, mr. george, you said. when you were asked is there any finding or evidence of political motivation here you said no. >> that's correct, sir. >> and so what we find is a situation where inexcusable activity took place because it erodes the confidence of the american people in a system where they participate voluntarily. if there is a place in public service where you have to have the highest level of conduct and standards it's at the irs. and so mr. miller i think it is unfortunate for those who are in positions of authority but the buck has to stop somewhere and that is what we are seeing. that does not diminish the good work that has been done by anyone in the irs within the years. i hope you understand that you are here today talking to us

because we need to get to the bottom of this. we need to clean up and clear out so we can go back to the business of making sure that people respect the fact that we have a voluntary system of paying our taxes. having said that, let me ask a question of mr. george. in your report you indicate and i think i'm quoting correctly that there appeared to be some confusion by the determinations unit specialists on what activities are allowed by internal revenue code section 501 or allowed by organizations. we believe this could be due to the lack of specific guidance on how to determine the, quote, primary activity, end quote, of a c 4 organization. treasury regulations statet that c 4 organizations should have social welfare as the primary activity of their mission.

however, the regulations do not define how to measure whether social welfare is an organization's primary activity. so a question. could some of these delays in processing some of these applications have been avoided if there were clearer guidance on section 501-c 4 organizations or what the primarily activity constitutes? >> the direct answer is yes but that determinations unit did seek clarity from washington head quarters and it took months before they received a response. >> and that is a great way to lead to mr. miller. i think what we have been saying for quite some time, many of us, is that there is not clarity in what is social welfare. so you have many c 4 organizations, these nonprofit organizations, the good guys i

will call them who are trying to do good work and they are being tainted by some of these organizations that are out there doing nothing more than political activity because the supreme court gave them license to go ahead and use a nonprofit status to go out there and do politics. is the law clear, mr. miller, in your mind on what is political campaign activity? >> no. it is very difficult, sir. >> can you distinguish between section 501-c 4 organizations and, say, a section 527 political organization? >> that is difficult. presumably the level of political activities and expenditures needs to be less in the 501-c 4 area. >> let me suggest for you to go back in your opportunity with your fellow employees at the irs and mr. george you in your capacity as our inspector

general to please communicate that we need your sense of what is the best guidance so we don't have this proliferation of organizations that are abusing of the nonprofit status at taxpayer expense because they get these write offs so we won't run into this situation again. i yield back the balance of my time. >> thank you, mr. chairman. mr. miller i have like about 15 minutes to question you but i only have five. i'm disappointed. i'm hearing i don't know. i don't remember. i don't recall. i don't believe. you don't know who investigated the case but yet you say it was investigated. but you don't know who investigated. i am puzzled by that. you are not instilling a lot of confidence in this panning and the people across this country. i want to go back to your

version to the word target or targeted. and you said there was no targeting because there was no intent. not withstanding the intend of irs personnel would you not agree that certain groups were treated differently because of their name or policy position? >> so i believe, sir, that -- >> were groups treated differently? that is the question. because of their belief, policy position or name? >> no. >> that is a yes or no question. no one was treated different? >> may i answer it. i would like to be broader than yes or no. my understanding of the cases that went into this queue is that it included elements from throughout the political spectrum that of the 300 cases that were looked at by the

treasury inspector general, 70 of the 300 had tea party in the name. my understanding is that the organizations that got -- >> mr. miller, it is my time and i'm going to take it back for now. i'm not going to be delayed here. so your answer was no. no one was treated differently. i take you back to mr. ryan's question you knew that groups with the term tea party had been automatically subjected to extra scrutiny. you have admitted that today. you acknowledged your investigation to whether certain groups were being treated differently, whether there was intent or not, didn't this committee have the right to know? >> i answer all questioned truthfully. >> didn't this committee have the right to know that groups were being treated differently? you have this group of 200, 300, whatever the number was, did not

this committee have the right to know? >> i answered all of the questions i was asked. >> so your answer is a nonanswer once again? do you not think that congress has the right to know all of the information that you knew? >> look, congress was -- >> mr. miller, does this committee have the right to know the information that you knew? yes or no? >> this committee -- >> yes or no. >> always going to get this information. >> you testified before this committee -- please, you testified before this committee and you did not provide the information. you did not share the information you knew. so my question is, do you not believe -- this is the united states congress here that you are accountable to which is accountable to the american citizens across this country.

do you not believe it is your job to provide us with the information that you knew so that you said the people of this country can be properly served honestly. you're law enforcement agency. i was a cop for 33 years. you raised your right hand today. did this committee have the right to know what you knew? yes or no? >> i answered all questions truthfully. i also will tell you that -- >> let me ask mr. george because my time -- you are not going to cooperate with me and you have been uncooperative during this hearing. mr. george, we have heard an early draft of your report indicate -- >> i want to bring in as we continue questioning, msnbc host karen finny and republican strategist chip saltsman.

it does remind me a little bit of a courtroom where if you are a lawyer you want a yes or no question that might well serve your answer. are we learning anything from this questioning? >> not today. i think what they are doing is trying to set up a hearing or two down the road when they are going to get more information from the agency and subpoena the e-mails and schedules and phone records and see if they can put the pieces of the puzzle. >> is there a danger here in looking really political? in looking like they are going after the white house here? and i'm just saying he wouldn't let him get a word in edgewise. i think there are a lot of probably citizens who are outraged about this, as much as any republican is or democrat and saying let the guy answer the question. >> there is no question this is bipartisan outrage because it feeds into our feeds about a government who is targeting people for their belief. that is what they think they did.

we don't know what we don't know yet. ten days ago we didn't know this was going on. there are lots of things to figure out. i think the congress is doing what they should be doing, asking tough questions and setting up a baseline for what mr. miller and the irs are going to tell people today. they are going to find it out over the next couple of weeks. >> are you finding the answers to be credible? are you finding it credible to suggest that tea party groups that conservative groups were not specifically targeted for political purposes? >> let's go to your first question. i don't feel like we are getting the full answer because mr. miller has been cut off so many times. i don't defend any of what happened but i am interested in understanding the way that their process worked because it sounds to me like there clearly is a problem in the process and a problem post citizens united. there are a number of issues that need to be looked at it.

>> when you look at this report -- inspector general's report that there wasn't some level of targeting here? >> here is the thing. i think the point that miller is making is that he is making the suggestion that targeting implied malicious intent. i don't know if that is legally why he is saying that but was there some -- did they group tea party groups together? absolutely. and that was completely inappropriate. i think what he is trying to say is the reason they did it was for political reasons in terps of this political activity was what they were looking for and not because of the ideology. here is the point. it may be that a group of bureaucrats made a really stupid assumption about how to group these things together and treated that group really poorly and didn't understand what the heck they were doing. >> you are going to stay with me.

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i want to apologize for the mistakes that we made and the poor service we provided. i think that what happened here was that foolish mistakes were made by people trying to be more efficient in their work load selection. the listing described in the report while intolerable was a mistake and not an act of partisanship. >> that was from the opening statement of the outgoing irs commissioner who has faced very tough questioning from members of the house ways and means committee. let me bring chip and karen back in. there is a larger question here touched on by a couple of members of congress. that is the impact on the american people and their perception of the federal government. i don't think this is just about the white house. i think this is about congress, as well. republicans and democrats. the irs not exactly the most popular kids on the block from

washington anyway but how important is it for both sides, frankly, to get this done? to figure out what happened here? because right now it's not looking too good for anybody. >> there is a small opportunity for congress to get something right because they definitely agree on the fact that they don't like the irs. as i have been listening to the testimony you talk about mistakes being made. when the irs makes a mistake and they come after a small business the small business has to hire their own attorneys. they spend lots of money to prove they are right. there is a part of me that wants mr. miller to have to defend himself out of his own pocket. when american people do this we have to pay for it. it is time for the irs to get a taste of their own medicine. >> and even if we get to the very specifics of this we have been talking a lot about the

military sexual assault about the culture of the military. i'm wondering, what is the culture of an organizationt that goes on and nobody raises a red flag? or if what you say is true some people in mid level, low level bureaucratic positions put things into slots in a way that looked very bad or was pretty stupid. what does that say about public servants who are smart? >> i completely agree with you. and i think having worked in the government i will say there are a lot of people who are career employees who don't look at things from the political lens. they don't think about the optics in the way those of us who are trained to do so would have done. it is pretty shocking what happened. one of the things that is so important, this is bipartisan across the country. i think we all hate the irs. we all hate paying taxes. this is the one place when you

deal with the irs you feel helpless because they have all the power. if they say you owe, your recourse is very limited. i think to your primary point it is important that both sides get this right. at the same time this is why i go back. if this is a matter of mid level people had terrible judgment i think there needs to be change that when you have such a monumental decision coming out of the supreme court like citizens united where you know that is going to trigger all kinds of changes in terms of the kinds of groups that apply for a certain status, there has to be some kind of thought to making sure that as it filters down through the agency there is actual training so people understand what is actually happening. if it turns out that somebody maliciously decided to that is equally wrong. you shouldn't be targeted for your ideology. that was done with that kind of

intent that person should be fired. if there are other legal recourses that should be pursued. >> you have heard from both sides what sounds like incredibly bad handling of some of the cases. that is another whole issue all together. we are going to take a quick break. when we come back we will be watching to see them coming back in. house ways and means committee talking about this irs debacle. we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] this is george. the day building a play set

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recess of the house ways and means committee will be wrapping up shortly. the acting commissioner, steve miller. a couple of quick questions for you. i'm wondering, do you think the president has been tough enough on this? i think it is a fine line you are always walking in a situation like this getting so much advice from so many places. there is a lot at stake for him. give me your assessment.

>> i would have liked to see him be tougher sooner. now they are moving quickly to be very tough. i think the report was an important piece of information. i think they will continue to be tough on this as we learn more. >> there is a line that republicans have to walk here, i think, too. it is between asking questions that need to be asked and trying to get the answers that we need and looking so heavily partisan. have they crossed that line? >> we definitely have the opportunity. my friends in congress know how to overplay their hands. they have to be careful and stay on the facts. they need to investigate whether the white house had anything to do with it. right now they said they haven't. there could be an independent counsel that gets into that. >> we do think there will be several more hours as we make our way through the house ways and means committee. thanks for both of you. >> that is going to wrap up this hour of "jansing and co."

thomas roberts is up next. >> hi. i can say tgif to you and most people out there. certainly not a happy friday for the outgoing head of the irs. it has been a brutal morning. we are going to pick it up where you left off as soon as the recess is over. that is just a couple of minutes away. miller going back to face this public tongue lashing on capitol hill. he is insisting that irs employees were not motivated by partisanship. we are going to talk with congress woman diane black. also the man who wrote the book on surviving political scandals. masters of disaster author, he is going to join me to discuss how the president should handle this, what options are on the table. the heritage hits keep coming. their latest advice to republicans, investigate, don't legislate. much more coming up at the top of the hour. stick around. ♪

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when asked the truth and you know the truth and you have a legal responsibility to inform others of the truth but you don't share that truth, what is that called? >> i always answer questions truthfully. >> there we have it, just some of the exchanges going on. the ousted head of the irs in the hot seat going round for round with republicans on a mission. i'm thomas roberts. with the outgoing chief of the irs facing a verbal firing squad on capitol hill while his soon to be former boss tries to change the subject. today's hearing is the first of what is expected. it comes a week after news broket that irs singled out certain groups. members of congress looking to answer the what, when and why but most importantly the who? >> who in the irs is responsible

for targeting conservative organizations? the question remains. who is responsible for targeting the conservative organizations? who is responsible for targeting these individuals? >> i don't have names for you, mr. brady. and i'm willing to try to find that out. they say a picture is worth a thousand words. this one taken from the president yesterday sums up the week that was. the administration has a two-prong plan to weather the storms. address each of the current controversies head on. the president has appointed a new eacting head of the irs. and pievt from the scandals. the president will seek to shift the focus to his agenda, jobs, jobs and more jobs. live on capitol hill monitoring the irs hearing. >> steve