other. not trying to play games on a partisan side and not have concern for the american people that's what makes the country work and that's what makes it work. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now death in taxes. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. let me start tonight with this. call me a charlie rangel fan. today i watched him at the hearings on the irs mess. i heard him say everything i believe. it's this. if you have a problem in a

company or on a team or in a government agency, you deal with it. you get rid of the bad apples. it's the one sure way, only sure way to convince people what they're seeing as bad has been removed. now, if you want the company or team or government agency government, itself, to look back, hoot and holler. don't fix the problem, don't get rid of the bad apples. let them sit there and smell up the whole barrel. let them stink up all the apples. the republicans have a lot to holler about here. they have their fat target. what i'm impressed by is the lawmakers who sees the problem, wants to actually fix it because he, like me, believes in what government can do positively. i have two members of the house ways & means committee joining me tonight. and u.s. congressman dave reichart is a republican from washington. i want to start with congressman reichart. sir, put this in perspective. we're going to look at the tape

from the media. let's look at the tape first and react to what we saw. here's something from today's hearing on the ways & means. let's listen. >> the reality is this is not a personnel problem. this is a problem of the irs being too large, too powerful, too intrusive, and too abusive of honest, hardworking taxpayers. >> is this still america? is this government so drunk on power that it would turn its full force, its full might, to harass and intimidate and threaten an average american who only wants her voice and their voices heard? >> you get a letter from you folks, or a phone call. it's with terror you look at it. now this kind of reconfirms that, you know what, they can do almost anything they want to anybody they want, any time they want. >> the bottom line is for those looking, this is an audit, and it's helpful, but it's the tip of the iceberg. it's the tip of the iceberg. >> let me go to congressman reichart. is the problem, as you see it, the fact that we have an irs, the fact we have an internal revenue service that collects

the federal income tax from individuals or corporations, or is the problem is you've got really bad culture in there where people can look you right in the eye and say, i'm not prejudice, i'm not political, but they are? what is the problem? >> well, i was hopeful today to hear some straight answers from mr. miller. it didn't happen. so as the viewers watched and as the members of congress participated in the conversation and the exchange in questions and answers, it became very obvious very quickly that mr. miller was not there to take responsibility. in fact, he said, look, i'm not comfortable with the word "targeted." that didn't go on. he offered an apology. but then he offered excuses immediately after that. he wouldn't even in my questioning acknowledge the fact

that certain groups were treated differently. he answered, in fact, he answered no to that question. then what i asked him, is it not your responsibility to provide the information that you knew about this situation to congress? he would not answer that question. so, chris, you know, today i think was really a sad day for america as people watched this interview, because the -- it starts with the leadership. and the leadership, today, in the irs, showed arrogance, showed a lack of concern and brushed the, in my opinion, just sort of brushed the issue aside. >> congressman, thank you. you've been around. i don't know what i saw. i certainly saw a disconnect today. that mr. miller guy. i don't know what -- it's like he didn't see what he knew people certainly right, left and center could see, that when you

target particular groups, you're targeting particular groups. i mean, if this were on the other foot, and this was a george w. administration, they were targeting groups that were calling themselves progressives, i would say it's prima facie evidence of targeting. i don't think it's complicated. what's your view, congressman? >> my view is that the criteria were very inappropriate. there was terrible mismanagement. i think there was very terrible oversight. and there was a failure to be in touch as they should have with the congress. but the i.g., the inspector general, when asked was there any political motivation for the people in the exempt organization in cincinnati, the lower level people who were working on this, he said no. was there any outside influence? and he said no. so when the chairman, and i brought his language, started off his opening remarks saying it's the latest example of culture of cover-ups in this administration, there was no

evidence today to support that. it was politicization of a very, very sad chapter by people who were works and who misworked. >> let's take a look. here's steve miller. he fell back on a familiar response in washington, mistakes were made. he said any mishandling of cases by the irs had nothing to do with partisanship. let's listen. >> as acting commissioner, i want to apologize on behalf of the internal revenue service for the mistakes that we made and the poor service we provided. i think that what happened here was that foolish mistakes were made by people trying to be more efficient in their workload selection. the listing described in the report, while intolerable, was a mistake and not an act of partisanship. >> congressman reichart, i respect everything you're doing here. i'm just questioning some of the thinking by the chairman of the committee, mr. levin mentioned. is there any evidence on your

side of the aisle that there was interference from the white house in the irs mishandling of these cases? >> well, i think it's important to remember that what we heard in the committee hearing today was that this is an audit, and that the investigation, although the -- mr. george could not confirm verbally in the hearing that the investigation was continuing. i think that's the impression he left upon all of us in the committee. there is an ongoing investigation. now, the audit occurred. now the investigation occurred. you can draw your own conclusion. so can your viewers. when you listen to the testimony of mr. miller. mr. miller can't even remember his -- the names of the people who are in his chain of command. he can't even remember who he

talked to last, what was the conversation about. did he talk to anybody in the secretary of treasury's office? he can't even remember dates, times and places. and finally, he couldn't remember when i asked him, who did you talk to about this? who came up with the criteria? he finally gave me the name. >> chris, can i break in? >> he finally gave me the name, chris, but he could not remember what she told him. now, look, this isn't somebody reporting -- this isn't somebody reporting late to work, chris. this is a serious issue that addresses civil rights. >> mr. levin, is that true? did they find out who was the one who said look for patriot groups, calling themselves patriot groups? look for groups that have tea party in their names. do we know who that was now? >> i don't think we have all the names. the people who did that were mistaken. it was a serious mistake. but you asked mr. reichart a question. was there any evidence of this hearing to support the statement by chairman camp? and, again, i read it. "it was part of a culture of cover-up in this administration." there was no evidence whatsoever at this hearing. the i.g., when asked, said it was not politically motivated. and there was no outside influence. and there is no evidence of

corruption. so you ask mr. reichart a question, the answer is no. there was no evidence. these were serious, serious mistakes made in the exempt organization people -- >> mr. levin, when the witness cannot answer the question, cannot even remember who he spoke to -- >> that's a good point. i agree. you made the point that mr. miller didn't respond to your very good question. who came up with the idea of coding these people? my question to you is, in the day of hearings and anything before that in terms of your committee investigations, have you come upon any evidence that the white house was involved? >> look, the -- >> the answer to that is no. >> i'm asking mr. reichart. mr. reichart, is it yes or no? >> i think the question was addressed to me. and i -- >> and what's the answer? >> then answer it. >> mr. -- >> go ahead, mr. reichart. >> if i'm allowed to answer it, mr. levin, thank you very much. i think mr. camp may have information that i don't have. and so that would be a question you could put to mr. camp. all the members of the committee have different levels of information that they have access to. >> yeah. >> but, but over the course of this investigation, we will learn the answers to those questions. and the fact that this witness today represents the united states government, our white house, our secretary of

treasury, the fact he can't remember a thing, highly suggests to me -- >> that's a good point. okay. i agree. if mr. levin is correct and the i.g. is correct, because he did stipulate this as well, he found this, that there was no evidence of white house influence or obama campaign influence, if that's correct, is this still appropriate of your chairman to keep saying culture of corruption throughout the government and this is an example of it if it had nothing to do with the presidential influence at all? >> i don't think that's proven yet. >> sure you do. okay. here's the question. if you have no evidence right now this friday of any white house involvement and don't have any evidence next week and the week after that, when do you stop accusing the white house of being corrupt in this regard? >> i'm not accusing -- >> at what point do you say, we don't have evidence? >> chris, i'm not accusing the white house of anything. i haven't made that statement at all. >> the culture of corruption

from this administration, what's that mean? >> that's not coming from me. i didn't say that. what i'm saying is, look, i'm an old cop. i want to base my, what i say, on facts. and so -- >> good. >> -- today i was looking for facts from mr. miller. mr. miller did not provide any facts, chris. listen to the testimony. >> could i say -- let me say a word. >> there were no facts, mr. levin, that mr. miller provided to this country -- >> okay. >> -- as to why and how this criteria was applied. >> mr. reichart, you did a good job here. what do you want done here? i personally want to see the bad apples thrown out of the barrel. i'm not going to be satisfied watching this. as a typical person, if you have a big problem, there has to be a big solution. two people walking isn't enough. the american people are still going to believe, if they see the same people there, they've

got the same problem there. only, as charlie rangel said today, mr. rangel said there's a cancer here, you got to remove it. do you agree with mr. rangel? >> i think there has to be action. look, i was the first democrat to say that mr. miller should be relieved of his responsibilities and so miss lerner. i said that a few days ago. i believe absolutely we need to get to the bottom of it. just don't throw apples at the top if you have no evidence to support it. and in the hearing today, there was no such evidence. we should have a nonpartisan hearing, not look for political points. >> okay. let me agree -- thank you, both, for coming on. mr. reichart. thanks for coming on. i think we made two points. i think we heard ships passing in the night. the one point, mr. miller, the acting head, did not answer the questions which were appropriate.

he must have known they were coming. give us a sense of your chain of command. give us a sense of your structure so we can identify who made the decision to code the various organizations trouble. and then also i think there is a real challenge here to the chairman of the committee who wasn't with us today. don't keep accusing this white house of corruption if you can't find the smallest bit of evidence that this president or his people or his campaign staff had anything to do with this. you can't just keep saying it. we had a guy on the other day, turner, who said, i'm going to have an investigation to see if i know what i'm talking about. you can't make accusations before you even have any evidence of wrongdoing. i think it's common sense. coming up, the the scandal that wasn't. benghazi. thomas pickering headed the investigation into the benghazi incident. he's been eager to testify in public. this afternoon he's learned he's going to get his wish. he's been subpoenaed to testify next week about his investigation. we're going to hear from him, however, first, and hear it tonight coming up next. also, republicans are gleeful in their outrage over the irs and other stories so much so that the influential heritage action is urging republicans to not bring up any legislation, in other words, pass nothing of worth to country, just keep the scandal

industry going. but it won't work if president obama plays his cards right. if he's got something positive to do and all they have is trouble to make, they're going to go with the positive. plus our series, "the unkindest cut." how sequester cuts are endangering critical medical research that could affect you and your family and your health at the national institutes of health. if you believe evolution is a lie or you can stop being gay because somebody told you to, then the republicans' senate primary in georgia is made for you. wait until you hear these points of view. this is "hardball." [ male announcer ] book ahead and save up to 20 percent at doubletree.com, so you can sit back, relax and enjoy. doubletree by hilton. where the little things mean everything. we're not in london, are we? no. why? apparently my debit card is. what? i know. don't worry, we have cancelled your old card. great. thank you. in addition to us monitoring your accounts for unusual activity, you could also set up free account alerts. okay. [ female announcer ] at wells fargo we're working around the clock to help protect your money and financial information. here's your temporary card. welcome back. how was london?

[ female announcer ] when people talk, great things happen. ♪ now you can give yourself a kick in the rear! v8 v-fusion plus energy. natural energy from green tea plus fruits and veggies. need a little kick? ooh! could've had a v8. in the juice aisle. would hillary clinton keep virginia blue if she runs for president in 2016? sure looks that way. check the "hardball" scoreboard. according to a new quinnipiac poll, secretary clinton would defect senator marco rubio, leading republican right now by 13 points in virginia. it's clinton, mrs. clinton, 51%, rubio 38%. against former vice presidential nominee paul ryan, clinton by ten. 50%-40%. barack obama won virginia in both his presidential campaigns. by the way, that's when i knew he was going to win that night. we'll be right back. i've been taking a multivitamin for years. centrum silver.

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welcome back to "hardball." this week the white house tried to put to rest talk of some massive politically motivated cover-up on benghazi. releasing 100 pages of e-mails. there they are. showing exactly how and by whom the talking points for that appearance on sunday morning's "meet the press" by susan rice was put together. republicans seem far from satisfied. >> you don't have to be sherlock holmes to figure this out. the story of benghazi, if accurately reported, would undercut the narrative bin laden's dead, al qaeda's on the run and they manipulated the evidence to help their political re-election. that's pretty obvious. >> that was lindsey graham of south carolina speaking after the white house released all those e-mails showing it was actually the cia who played the largest role crafting the talking points in the end. one man who knows more about what happened in benghazi than anyone on the planet is thomas pickering. he co-chaired an independent review of the attacks.

a legendary career as a diplomat serving republicans and democrats in the world's hottest spots. his review of benghazi didn't sugar coat what happened concluding there were systemic failures and leadership and management deficiencies at the state department. yet republican congressman darrell issa strongly criticized the record and issa wants the ambassador to answer questions but not in a public hearing. let's listen to his rationale for that. >> the fact is we don't want to have some sort of a stage show. we have fact witnesses. they testified. we have the ambassador and admiral mullen who conducted and oversaw the arb. we're inviting them on monday. we'll go through not in front of the public but in a nonpartisan way questions and answers and then obviously a hearing to follow in an appropriate time. >> this afternoon u.s. congressman issa took the next step issuing a subpoena for ambassador pickering. he wrote the "in light of your continuing refusal to appear voluntarily for a transcribed interview, however, i found it necessary to issue a subpoena to compel your appearance at a deposition."

thomas pickering joining us. >> chris, i've just seen this. certainly i'm consulting with the state department and the lawyers there. my response, i hope, will find a way to move ahead. i've always wanted a public hearing. apparently that's not going to be in the offing. i think that's a serious mistake. and this is a serious step. and obviously i take it that way. i'm interested in finding a way to make sure that our report is defended, that i answer all the questions. my hope is to do so in public because the public deserves to know. >> when you think, when you're explaining to people who really seem to have -- i didn't know the gentleman. everybody loved him. ambassador chris stevens. he struck me as a dashing foreign service officer. a diplomat willing to take some reasonable calculated risks. willing to go into areas that aren't completely protected. and we can't put a bunch of uniformed men into a country we don't have a post-colonial or historic connection to anyway like libya.

you can't have lots of people around, especially if you're protecting or covering a cia facility. lots of factors here. do you think there was any way to have protected him short of him not having gone to benghazi that day? >> yes, i believe there was, and i in our report listed the shortcomings that may well have helped in that regard. this is only a guess. chris was a wonderful ambassador. chris worked for me for two years. i admired his work. he had absolutely the right concept. americans need to get out and talk to people and understand what things are happening in these countries overseas. >> yeah, i was a peace corps volunteer, too, and i think it's wonderful when these guys and women become diplomats because they don't hide in the compound and eat hamburgers and watch super bowls. they get out and meet people. you know what i mean. he wasn't a striped pants guy. i've got david corn here of "mother jones." he and i were talking, mr. ambassador.

>> i have a question for you, mr. ambassador. you put out a thorough report. unclassified version. there was also a classified version of your report which i don't expect you to talk about right here. but is there a way to fully understand what happened in benghazi and the security challenges there without really knowing what was going on in what you describe as the annex, which i assume was covered in the classified version which has been publicly reported as a cia facility? it seems like we're only getting a part of the story because a lot that was going on there was classified. >> yeah, to the best of my recollection, action at the annex was also covered in the unclassified report. particularly in the discussion of what happened on the night of september 11th, 12th, 2012. and i would ask you to read that. i think it was done with care. it avoided the classified, but i think it's there. certainly that action was important in looking at the whole picture, and we reviewed

it. >> but in terms of the security position there, and what was happening before the attack, and whether there should have been more security or less security and why these sites are targeted. i mean, those sort of questions. it seems, you know, you have to tiptoe around some very important issues here. >> well, i didn't in the classified report, obviously. but i think it -- our report was heavily focused on the state department facility. that's correct. i think it is important to know that in our report, we listed a number of shortcomings. we held people responsible. it was a tough report. it was not an easy report for us to put together. all of that, if there are people who have questions, and if chairman issa has questions, i want to respond to all his questions. but i would certainly prefer to do it in public just as the criticisms of our report were made part of the public report. and my sense is that we have answers to those questions. i've spoken in a number of places about them. i'll be glad to speak to you about them here. >> you know, mr. ambassador, with all respect, and i think i

do -- i do have respect for you. i'm not using it in the usual term where people don't mean it. i mean it. there are two questions that loom out there for the average person who reads the paper. why wasn't hillary clinton examined by you since she was apparently on the phone several hours after the first attack? let's start with that one. why didn't you interview her? >> there are two pieces there. one, we had a good discussion with her just about a week before we wound up. that discussion took place after we had completed a number of our findings, including the fact of who made the decisions that affected security in benghazi and who reviewed those decisions? they did not go to secretary clinton. the second piece was on the night of she had meetings. we reviewed a number of the events at those meetings with the people who attended those meetings. had we had any additional

questions, we would have asked them. there were no additional questions with respect to that. and i believe that we covered that thoroughly. >> the strange thing is, and we cover the news here almost 24/7 around here, and i didn't know that hillary was even on the phone with tripoli until a couple days ago. wasn't that important to you to make sure that was highlighted? she was, in fact, engaged in the early troubleshooting here? in fact, after the tragedy was exposed? >> i believe that was covered in our report. certainly it was something we knew about. it was my understanding at the time that it had been in the public, but i could be wrong there, chris. >> okay. let me ask you the profound political charge made. david, with one last question here. the republican argument here, i generalize here, there was some sort of coverup in the way this tragedy which cost the lives of our people over there was presented by the administration. the charge is made that the

white house made a point of putting susan rice, who is almost to me very much on the verge of being considered for secretary of state, put her on national television on "meet the press" with the idea of carrying the case, somehow this was not a case of terrorism so close to the election, but it was, in fact, a demonstration against a movie out in california, a controversial, in fact, i would say trouble making movie. it was really about that and turned into a riot and turned into a tragic attack on the facility there. and it was really all along known to be anshar sharia, all along known to be one of several attacks on our facilities over there and clearly a case of terrorism. it was covered up by the white house. your response? >> yeah, chris, our report did not cover the question of criminal culpability here. that was the fbi. so the question of who did it, when they did it, why they did it, and whether there are criminal charges against him is part of the fbi report which is ongoing. secondly, our group did not review the question of the talking points. that happened after the fact. i don't believe it bore any relationship to the principle

security questions under the law we were required to review. and i have to tell you that i'm not the expert on that, and i have really nothing to offer. i hope to clarify the questions you've got. those are questions obviously the people involved should respond to. i think they have by presenting the documents, but that's not my area of endeavor. >> okay. thank you, thank you very much. >> thanks, chris, very much. >> thomas pickering for coming on "hardball." thank you, david corn, as always for helping with this. coming up, when you're right, you're wrong? the candidates in the senate primary in georgia are tripping over each other to say the most extreme things down there. we'll be back with some of the craziest. yes, please. of course. a rich, never bitter taste cup after cup. 340 grams. [ sighs ] [ male announcer ] always rich, never bitter. gevalia. i'm also a survivor of ovarian a writand uterine cancers. i even wrote a play about that. my symptoms were a pain in my abdomen and periods that were heavier and longer than usual for me.

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ha! back to "hardball." now to the sideshow. this past week was a banner one for minnesota congresswoman michele bachmann with the 37th house vote to try and repeal obama care. on top of that, bachmann's first 2014, you got it, 2014 campaign ad hit tv screens in minnesota. 17 months before the election out there. any guesses on the subject matter? >> great news, the u.s. house just passed my bill to repeal obama care. obama care promised us lower costs and a better health care system, but the truth is just the opposite. passing my bill is just the

first step toward lower costs and improved health care. >> look, i've been watching these for years. i know what her problem is her. her pollster person is telling her she has wickedly bad numbers on the issue of effectiveness. she's trying to prove she's doing something but she isn't. next, georgia senate candidates. "mother jones" found whoppers in the quote file for the three republican candidates down there. paul broun, phil gingrey, and jack kingston, all currently u.s. congressmen. here it goes on the subject of why same-sex parents should not be allowed to adopt children. "if they wanted a babe by bad enough, they could make that choice." do you believe it? it's the 21st century. in other words, just don't be gay. next on the subject of evolution, jack kingston said, "i believe i came from god, not a monkey. i don't believe a creature crawled out of the sea and became a human being one day." is that what evolution is? finally, before obama care was passed paul broun said, "if obama care passes, that free insurance card that's in people's pockets is going to be as worthless as a confederate dollar after the war between the states, the war of yankee aggression." that's a race to keep your eye on down there in georgia. i don't think can win there. karen handel will be joining that race.

she resigned from the susan g. komen foundation last year after her involvement in the decision to cut grants to planned parenthood. catch this headline from the "washington post." "even obama's umbrellas are a scandal now." at yesterday's press conference with the turkish prime minister, the president called on marines for some cover when it started to rain. >> i am going to go ahead and ask folks, why don't we get a couple of marines, they're going to look good next to us, just because i want -- i've got a change of suits, but i don't know about our prime minister. there we go. that's good. you guys, i'm sorry. >> i thought he handled that well. how did the umbrellas become a point of debate? people like sarah palin who tweeted, "mr. president, when it

rains, it pours, but most americans hold their own umbrellas." apparently palin doesn't always put herself in that most americans category. let's flash back to a drizzly day in 2008 when palin was the republican candidate for vice president. here she is exiting a plane, but thanks to that guy in front of her, she's not getting wet. how's that happening? oh, he's holding the umbrella for her. anyway, up next, republicans are desperate to keep those controversies alive, of course. now they're being advised to not bring up any legislation that would actually take the focus off benghazi, the "ap" and the irs. in other words, don't govern. grandstand. you're watching "hardball." the place for politics. toughest guys in football. and now i'm training guys who leak a little to guard their manhood. with man style protection... whoa... of new depend shields and guards. who are you? this is my house. perfect. come with me. built you a little man space under here. how 'bout that. sweet. see depend shields and guards are made to fit guys. that's awesome. i trained that guy now it's your turn. go online for my tips to help guard your manhood. with new depend, shields and guards.

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i'm craig melvin with breaking news in connecticut where two commuter trains have collided there. officials say that metro north train jumped the tracks and was struck by the second train. officials say 20 to 25 people have been hurt at this point none of those injuries appear

life threatening. that accident happened just after 6:00 eastern between bridgeport and fairfield, connecticut. both of those trains would have been packed at the time of the accident. emergency crews are at the scene evaluating passengers. we'll continue to follow this story and update you as more information becomes available. for now, back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." a crisis is a terrible thing to waste, of course. the gop knows that. you better believe they do. about 1/3 of all house committees are now investigating the obama administration in one form or another thanks no part to a trio of administration missteps. i'll call them that. the thing is that doesn't take away any of the major issues facing this country. then things like immigration, tax reform, the debt ceiling,

the economy, jobs. but faced with a choice of doing something on those issues, versus doing nothing by keeping the scandal drumbeat alive. some conservatives are pressing the party to take the path of least resistance. do nothing. just where will that take them? john feehery is here. he's a republican expert. nira tanden is the president of center for american progress. your group wasn't tagged by the irs. american is apparently not a word that causes trouble. >> we started in 2003 under the bush administration. it's all good. >> this is a draft. anyway. this is what i'm talking about. the conservative heritage action for america group, is urging republicans to stay on the scandals. in a letter to house leaders john boehner and eric cantor, "it could be imprudent to do anything that shifts the focus from the obama administration to the ideological differences within the house republican conference. to that end we urge you to avoid bringing any legislation to the house floor that could expose or highlight major schisms within

the conference." little catholic word there. schisms. john feehery, i want to start you. is this good politics to focus entirely on the drumbeat? irs, fbi going after "ap" and benghazi and don't allow immigration to come up which will be divisive and don't focus on things, anything else that might be divisive, like a jobs bill. >> i think it's a bad strategy. i think at the end of the day the house republicans have to govern. i think they have to get things done. i think immigration is very important. i think john boehner has said they're focused on jobs. i think if anything, where this comes with irs, link it to obama care because i think obama care is going to be a big issue. it would be good if they came up with an alternative to obama care. >> alternative? it's in law. >> they have to repeal it. >> 38th time. >> before you slip over to that baby, you can't repeal unless the senate agrees to repeal then you have to get the president's signature. >> they'll repeal it at some point. >> they're going to get a 2/3 vote in both houses? when is that going to happen? >> last point. this irs thing shows that there's a need for fundamental tax reform. i think the president, this would help get the president out of this thing. >> how would it work? >> you know what, simplify the tax code as much as possible. maybe two or three rates. and get rid of all those

loopholes except for some -- >> what about the tax exempt status of the 501cs? >> you want to form a political organization like yours, you should have to pay taxes. >> how about paying taxes on all the political contributions we all make or people make? i can't make them. everybody else makes them. >> if you make a political contribution, you don't get a tax break for that. >> i know you don't. why should these groups be tax-free then? >> they're got giving campaign contributions. >> oh. >> what they're doing is they're exercising their fundamental -- >> in other words, if it doesn't go for the candidate -- >> you're talking about -- >> here's the question. are the republicans smart to focus on the democrats when they're down on the irs? i think the irs is a problem unless they fire a lot of people and act as angry as republicans are pleased of this. that's my thought. do you think something big has to be done at irs? >> they should find out who did what wrong and those people should be punished. absolutely. democrats and republicans. fired. they should be fired. absolutely should be fired.

>> as long as they're still. >> they should be heard. the issue with this letter, it's great advice to the house republican congress, is it represents exactly what people hate in washington which is only focus on partisan posturing and ways to hurt your political opponents instead of doing your job to solve the country's problems. i think you're seeing that with the polls out today which is people think jobs and the economy is what's really important and they don't think irs or all these other issues. with all due respect, the irs issue is really about the fact we have a campaign finance system that's been run amok by a supreme court -- >> you guys need reform. i've never believed in long-term reform. let me ask you about current questions. i hear from everybody in and out of the republican party they know they face a problem with hispanics. they've lost the african-american vote for years.

that goes back probably to the '60s. the problems they had back then with civil rights not supporting enough. your party was good in civil rights in certain cases. certainly the passage of the '64 bill. you have to get the hispanic vote back. if that continues to grow over time and grows all democrat, 90% like the black vote is, you're finished in terms of winning national elections. is it better for you to get an immigration bill that shows your party is fair and open to immigration, or fair to keep beating the drum on scandal? if you have to choose. the republican party may be split on immigration. is it better to do immigration reform? >> in 1998 we focused on the impeachment of clinton. we lost seats because of it. we have a vested interest in getting hispanics, more into the middle class so they can vote for republicans. i think not only that, this is the whole point. you have to pass immigration reform because it's a long-term strategy. if you focus completely on scandal, it's a short-term loser. >> is he right? >> absolutely. i mean, i remember '98, bill clinton, second term, third election. picked up five seats. that happened, five seats in the

house. that happened because republicans overreached. this is something that has benefited -- >> i'm going to hit you with a question. >> go ahead. >> part of my closing remarks. somebody said, a football coach, best defense is good offense. if the democrats were talking jobs, jobs, jobs, immigration, the engine would be moving. something would happen. they seem stuck in the water right now. >> i think the president today was -- he was talking about jobs today in baltimore. >> does he have a big jobs bill? >> this is a big thing. >> you don't have a big jobs bill. the biggest mystery in this administration -- no. you're great. but the biggest -- you can't change the president but i can criticize him. i do occasionally. you know when i criticize him? he's not doing what every democratic president ought to stand for. create for jobs. fight for them in the government, what the private sector is not doing. people have to work. that's the number one thing in this country, have a job. stop the drumbeating on the bad side. your good side. you do have one.

nira, you do, too. thank you. up next, the latest report on our series "the unkindest cut." we have a real hero coming here tonight. francis collins. he's coming to talk about health research which affects all of us like my mom who died from alzheimers. pancreatic cancer. we have to deal with these issues. this is "hardball." the place for politics. ♪ ♪ et toujours ♪ me amour ♪ how about me? [ male announcer ] here's to a life less routine. ♪ and it's un, deux, trois, quatre ♪ ♪ give me some more of that [ male announcer ] the more connected, athletic, seductive lexus rx. ♪ je t'adore, je t'adore, je t'adore ♪ ♪ ♪ s'il vous plait [ male announcer ] this is the pursuit of perfection.

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let's check the "hardball" scoreboard. first to massachusetts. a new ppp poll shows u.s. congressman ed markey with a seven-point lead over republican gomez in the special election for the u.s. senate. it's markey 48%, gomez 41%. that election takes place at the end of june. next to the governor's race in virginia. a hot one down there. a quinnipiac poll shows terry mcauliffe leading over republican attorney general ken cuccinelli by five among registered voters. 43%-38%. a republican leaning poll, cuccinelli is up by eight. these polls are all over the place. 44%-36%. that's among likely voters. this is too early. but we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] running out of steam? ♪ now you can give yourself a kick in the rear!

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back to "hardball." our series with the the unkindest cut." we have showcased the way congress's arbitrary across the board spending cuts has had real world negative effects on people across this country, like cuts to head start for children, meals on wheels for the home bound. we look at cuts for funding for medical research. cutting funding for the national institutes of health. the largest supporter of biomedical research in the world means delays to the universal flu vaccine that could fight every strain of flu. no more rolling of the dice hoping your type of flu is covered by the flu shot. cancer drugs, developments that would isolate the disease and cause less trauma to the rest of the body and research on drugs that could lessen debilitating effects of old age. i guess we're talking alzheimer's. dr. francis collins is the director of the national institute of health. he was awarded the national award of freedom for leader of

the human geno project. joy reid is managing editor of "the to be on the same segment as this fellow here. dr. collins. i've met you a number of times. so short term, long-term effects. when i hear pancreatic or alzheimer's, someone is in trouble. what is happening in all these areas. >> in research or pancreatic cancer or diabetes or the universal flu vaccine is a remarkable pitch. amazing progress being made at an exponential rate. here we are at the moment where science is moving the fastest it ever has and support for that science, because of sequester, is under greater threat than it has ever been. the terms of the risk of slowing down a remarkable advance in medical research, many are substantial. people may not feel that today.

>> who is going to tell them? your country is backing down on research when other kuns try are ramping up. look at china, india, 20%. brazil, japan, up by 10%. even germany up by the%. but u.s. is cutting spending 5%. so we are down, they are all up. >> isn't that amazing? they read our play book. they looked at the american success story over the last 60 years where much of growth has been coming from science and biotechnology. >> you jump in with your thoughts, i don't really have a question for you. i want your thoughts. but every time a dictator has any power in the world, i don't care where he is from, he comes here. this is where you come for state of the art science if you are trying to extend your life a year or two.

we are where all of the drugs come from. what is the cost politically and why do you think this is happening? >> it shows the blunt instrument of the sequester and how it cut across programs like the sciences. where are the members of congress to stand up for the science spending? it used to be a bipartisan belief that we ought to invest in science. real quick, the governor of louisiana, just tweeted while we were on break, that democrats and liberals don't believe in the power of freedom. there are onlisome things the government can do. when his levees broke during, hurricane katrina no private company was going to take us to space. we were competing with the russians, that was also about science. about improving the human condition. that used to be a partisan thing. we used to believe that america should leave in terms of innovation in the world. now we cut away all of the things that are the best, that our country's government is

likely to be doing. >> tell me about diabetes. >> my own company works on diabetes. i know a lot about this. >> i do too. >> i know you do, chris. so we have learned what the genetic factors are that place people at risk and we have learned that those point us to new pathways waiting for the next generation of drug development to be achieved. we have the opportunity to build an artificial pancreas that would be able to supply insulin to people that don't have quite enough of it in a way that feedback your glucose levels so you don't have to go through the business of all of the shots and -- >> when is that going to come into play? >> slower now than -- >> in my time? >> it should be in your time. but when we lose $1.6 billion in one fell swoop, we swallow a poison pill and it will slow down everything and it slows down this too. >> i keep thinking we might have

a break through in dementia, but i don't know. >> the united states probably spend $200 billion aier year o care for individuals with alzheimer's. how much do we spend on research? about 500 billion. now 5 % less. and in terms of figuring outweighs of research and prevention. but i worry about the young scientist who come into the field who have great new ideas about diabetes and alzheimer's and they look at the united states and go, maybe there's not a career for me. >> and the best people do something else. >> or move to another country. >> looks to me the politics of this are pretty damning. looks like no hope. >> at the time we are talking about cutting long-term health cost, this is short term thinking. you think about it, chris, we are speeding toward the day when half this country's adults are seniors. we need to cut our medical spending and the only way to do

that is with scientific research. it's a shame. >> thank you. have a good weekend. >> thank you. >> an honor to be with you. thank you. frances collins from nih. the unkindest cut. from shakespeare. you can tweet us. good to facebook on tv.msnbc.com and click on hard ball. we'll be back in a minute. why let constipation weigh you down?

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let me finish tonight with this. i believe the best way to deal with this week for the president is to ray just the way he does business. this is his second term. it is a dangerous time buzz it tends to be when presidents get if trouble. think of when reagan tried to pack the supreme court. when you get surrounded by people who are afraid to challenge you. maybe they think you're too great because you've been elected president twice. the problem is people who survive can include cheerleaders who don't help you when you need help. when you're on the verge of doing something wrong. this president needs a team of offense. doing things that they promised to get done, like making healthcare work. creating millions more jobs. he also needs a defensive team that enforces solid honest progressive action by the government agencies and trouble shoots problems. you shouldn't have to read in

the paper that someone screwing up shouldn't have to learn secondhand about what the justice department is up to. offense and defense. he needs a team that can deliver on both. thanks for being with us. all in with chris hayes starts now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. thank you for joining us on this friday. news out of the white house that can have major implications from the foreign policy. also, the single most draw-dropping foreclosure, that i have ever heard. first, scandal gate week continued.