his crack pot theories shouldn't prompt hearings in congress, and inspire actual legislation in congress, shouldn't do a money bomb on his show running for congress. so what if congress held a hearing about a political scandal -- that happened in washington today. once again. >> you're the head of the agency and not asking questions, shame on you. >> congress gearing up for another week of hearings on the irs scandal. >> hearings on the irs controversy.

>> now in its fifth hour. >> so far we're not seeing this go high up the chain. >> the people i represent believe the federal government is out to get them. >> not a single application was denied. >> my question is who is going to jail over this scandal. >> i don't want to go to jail. >> there's not a lot here other than incompetence. >> plenty of drama. >> i am proud of the work in government. >> lois lerner, head of the tax exempt organization. >> members of the committee accused me of providing false information. >> chose to plead the fifth. >> you don't get to tell your side of the story, and not be subjected to cross examination. >> i have not broken any laws. >> that's not the way it works. >> i have not violated any irs rules or regulations. >> she waived her right to fifth amendment privilege. >> i have not done anything wrong. >> she waived her right to fifth amendment privilege by issuing an opening statement. >> south carolina republican trey gowdy. >> that's not the way it works. >> doesn't understand the fifth amendment of the u.s.

constitution. >> requiring organizations to be primarily engaged. >> this is an area that requires additional clarity. >> significantly different than requiring them to be exclusively engaged. >> this has happened before and it has not always been conservative groups. >> rare call for bipartisanship. >> let's all be republicans and democrats. >> there you go. >> you heard it here, the difference between the words exclusively and primarily. people that don't understand the difference between the words, congressional republicans and virtually all of the political media believe the irs has a huge scandal on its hands. here's the first time america heard about the difference

between the words exclusively and primarily in this context and how changing those words was indeed an irs scandal. a scandal that happened in 1959. section 501(c)4 of the internal revenue code that defines social welfare organizations for tax exempt purposes defines them this way. civic leagues or organizations not organized for profit but operated exclusively for the promotion of social welfare. then the irs code does a magic trick and changes the meaning of the word "exclusively." to be operated exclusively to promote social welfare, an organization must operate "primarily" to further the common good and general welfare of the people of the community. it was in 1959 that the irs on its own added the notion that

exclusively really just means primarily. so for 54 years the irs has gotten away with the crime of changing the word exclusively to primarily. that was last monday. but as expected, it did nothing to dim the political media's lust for scandal. i continued to harp on the point all week, and then friday at the house ways and means committee hearing where the members of that committee are supposed to be sort of experts in taxation came the first glimmer that someone in congress was actually listening. >> as mr. lawrence o'donnell, as the crew group, the citizens for responsibility and ethics in washington have pointed out in a petition, you are to be denied this status if you are not exclusively engaged in social welfare or party to the statute. >> then came the senate finance

committee hearing yesterday where the senate's real experts on taxation, the staff of the senate finance committee, made sure that the chairman asked the key question. >> how does the irs justify regulations that weaken the standard from exclusively to primarily? >> like many questions at the hearings, no one really answered it, but senators kept pressing the point while republicans and political media remained bliss fully oblivious to the language of the law. >> i didn't see a vote for primarily, i saw a vote for exclusively because we wanted to limit the scope of who could avail themselves of the benefit of a 501(c)4 under the tax code. >> what does the term primarily for social welfare mean? the irs has not made it clear when the statute says exclusively, that's at the root of so many of these problems. >> some of the thoughtful members of the house committee on oversite and government

reform showed in today's hearing that they were paying attention to the congressman and to the senate finance committee yesterday. >> the original statute passed by congress requires 501(c)4 organizations engaged exclusively in social welfare activities, but in 1959, treasury department issued a regulation that requires these entities only to be primarily engaged in social welfare activities. as a result, many groups now believe they can spend up to 49% of their funds on campaign related activities. >> the seed was planted for something bad to happen when somehow the interpretation of a law was changed from exclusively to primarily. >> requiring organizations to be

primarily engaged in social welfare activities is significantly different than requiring them to be exclusively engaged in social welfare activities. wouldn't you agree? >> it is, congresswoman. >> all right, mr. schulman. would you agree? >> yes. >> there is the commissioner of the irs during this so-called scandal saying there is a big difference between organizations being exclusively engaged in social welfare and primarily engaged in social welfare, that there's a difference between the law and the irs' official interpretation of the law in their regulation. how big a difference? >> clearly a mack truck is being driven through the 501(c)4 loophole. >> but don't expect the political media to notice the mack truck. don't expect them to pay any attention to points like this when someone walks into a congressional hearing and takes

the fifth amendment because nothing, nothing arouses the political media's scandal lust like someone taking the fifth amendment. and so of course they didn't even notice when congresswoman jackie speer got the oh, so careful and bureaucrat cli precise inspector general to admit at the heart of his report is a crime, a crime he chose not to identify in his report. >> if regulation can't trump statute, then everything that's been going on here relative to authorizing 501(c)4s, if not exclusively used for social service purposes is violative of the law, correct? >> i would say yes. >> violative of the law, which is to say against the law. the irs in 1959 without authority from congress changed congress' intent in 501(c)4 organizations, and they suddenly

had to be primarily for social welfare, which meant from that day forward irs agents somewhere, washington or cincinnati or somewhere were going to have to evaluate how much politics a 501(c)4 applicant was going to engage in. but by either standard, standard of the law written by congress or standard of the regulation as misinterpreted by the irs, any organization with the name of a political party in its title of any size for the democratic party to the tea party to local tea parties to socialist workers party to the green party, every single such application should have been rejected for 501(c)4 status as a matter of law. >> not a single application for

this status, this tax exempt status, was denied. >> and so the real scandal here is not that the applications were delayed but that they were ever approved. once the political media latched onto the paradigm of a scandal, once they've collectively fixed its frame around what they think are the relevant elements of the scandal, it is inescapable from that point forward, that frame. and the media is incapable of processing any new information that can show the political media just how wrong they have been. joining me now, house oversite committee member, democratic congressman eleanor holmes norton, representing district of columbia, and msnbc's joy reed. congressman norton, i can't tell you how much joy you brought to me when i heard you making this distinction about the law says

exclusively and the irs misinterpreted it to primarily, and if the irs had never done that misinterpretation, i submit to you, we wouldn't be discussing this tonight, no one ever would have been getting political organizations 501(c)4s. >> lawrence, if the irs had simply taken the plain meaning, what we call it in the law, the plain meaning, none of this would have happened by changing the law. that's what happened here, changing the plain meaning of exclusively to primarily, this was a disaster waiting to happen. it began in 1959, almost 50 years ago in the eisenhower administration, a republican commissioner apparently under his -- on his watch, that got changed. i must tell you, i am so curious

how that happened, i don't think it is legal, i don't know who has standing to sue, that's another question, but an administrative agency does have the power to interpret the law and to take words that are vague and give them meaning. an administrative agency does not have the power to change the plain meaning of the law and make a disaster happen and that's what's happened here. >> congresswoman, i can't tell you how shocked i was last week when i first started investigating this. it is no surprise to you since i worked on congressional staff in the senate that staffers and new members, when one of these things comes up, the very first thing you do is say let me see the law, let me see the statute. you go and read the statute, which apparently is against the rules for the political media. when you read that statute, it is a shocking thing to read. i remember reading it, i had never read it before this thing started. i looked at it, saw exclusively. i thought how did it come to this?

>> indeed, before i got my staff to get that, i thought it said primarily. >> me, too. >> i was shocked to see the wording changed and i don't see how it has lasted almost 50 years. >> you know, we found a memo from jfk's counsel at the irs affirming this change of primarily. he did it in a response letter to someone. but joy reed, the reason i am harping on the political media here is that they love scandal because scandal makes their jobs easier and the funny thing about scandal is they don't bother with facts any more. the game becomes oh, well, what about jay carney's tone and wait, they didn't tell us that yesterday, and now they're telling us that today, so it all becomes -- they all become and lists of scandal management and they're grading people on how well they're managing their scandal, grading the president

and grading carney and everybody, and it becomes this theater review, performance review. they don't care what's at the basis of it all. >> absolutely, this is not church, when you started talking about this, i felt like jumping up and saying hallelujah. it was like please, let's talk about -- it used to be a bipartisan complaint that 501(c)4 was being abused. used to have senators like tom colburn saying why is the nfl a 501(c)4? you used to have a specific target at the 501(c)3 that the irs takes, they look at the naacp or recently republican congress person complained about the humane society, complained to lois lerner that took the fifth today, why aren't you looking closer at the humane society abuse of c 3.

it is so comical that 501(c)3s understand the irs is stricter about c 3. so what do most c 3s do when they want to get involved in political activity? form a 501(c)4, so you have all of these convoluted organizations, super pac with a c 4 or c 3 with a c 4. they do it knowing the irs is going to misinterpret the law, allow them to do political activity through the c 4. that's why karl rove who has never done a day of social welfare i could ever interpret or find has a c 4. doesn't even have to pretend. i totally agree with you. the scandal is that the irs overinterprets c 3, goes after charitable organizations if they have a hint of disagreement with the president, naacp, but they let anybody slide through c 4. you've got members of congress declaring an inalienable right to be a tax exempt organization. seriously? >> congresswoman, i want to go

to the politics of the irs. i think it is very clear that politicians, especially members of the house and senate, whenever the irs comes up and there's an opportunity to attack them for some negative thing they've actually done or imagined to have done, politicians cannot refuse to attack them. their constituents expect the attack, democrat and republicans. there's no easier shot to take in politics than attacking the irs. >> of course not because nobody wants to pay taxes, but i have to tell you that the irs has been the whipping boy for the 112th, 113th congress, last two congresses anyway. these are people that would just as soon abolish the irs, hate the irs. >> some said today, they want to abolish the irs, that's part of the approach to the investigation. >> and they have cut the irs hugely at a time when we're looking for money, trying to cut the deficit.

you cut it from the people that collect the money. does that make any sense? >> yeah. they're the profit center over the federal government. >> precisely. >> joy, the other big piece that's lost, you don't even have to apply for 501(c)4 status, you can apply or you can just claim it. you can't just claim your passport, you have to apply for one. there's this big scandal that the republicans are saying happened here for something you don't even have to apply for. you can actually operate as a 501(c)4 if you're never approved by the irs. >> there are organizations now, tea party patriots, big tea party groups, if you scroll to the bottom of their web page, says their tax status is pending. they're functionally operating at c 4s without having that stamp of approval. you can go and ask the irs to do it but you don't necessarily have to. what's funnier, you worked in

politics, any political consultant with two brain cells can come up with this idea to make a c 4, i can raise gargantuan sums from corporations, all behind god's back, don't have to disclose, i can pay myself a salary, nothing illegal about any of it. the scandal to me is that the irs has been so lax enforcing the law, as you pointed out, as congresswoman norton points out, enforce the rules written in the statute, wouldn't have these organizations which shouldn't be tax exempt. we are subsidizing them through the tax code. >> crazy. congresswoman, go ahead. >> i want to say one thing. imagine the hapless irs people trying to figure out what to do, and now watch what's going to happen, they're going to be afraid to -- >> i think using the words they used were perfectly reasonable indicators that these applications need to be studied

and oh, by the way, probably don't deserve 501(c)4 status. there are plenty of other words, i would suggest using anything with democratic party or progressive party, use them all, every one of them. >> absolutely. >> congresswoman, thank you for joining us after that marathon hearing today. joy reed, thanks as always. >> always a pleasure. coming up, taking the fifth, washington style. we will show you the dramatic video, incredibly dramatic video of a woman invoking her constitutional rights, much to the horror of some members of congress who can't seem to remember that they actually took an oath to protect those rights. also coming up, the latest from oklahoma. i'll be joined by the oklahoma governor, mary fallin.

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some stunning developments in the boston marathon bombing investigation. a man being questioned about ties to the bombing suspects was killed by law enforcement in florida yesterday. nbc's pete williams reports an

fbi agent shot and killed 27-year-old ibragim todashev when he attacked an officer with a knife. authorities say todashev confessed to his involvement in unsolved triple homicide in a boston suburb on september 11th, 2011, and he was about to sign that written confession when he became violent. todashev was not suspected in the boston marathon bombings himself but was being questioned because of his involvement with tamerlan tsarnaev. investigators have been trying to determine if the two tsarnaev brothers were involved in that triple murder case. authorities say he had some connections with radical chechen rebels, but not sure if he had anything to do with radicalizing the tsarnaev brothers. and up next, a witness taking the fifth in congressional hearings on the irs. [ kitt ] you know what's impressive?

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responsibilities of the agencies for which i worked and i am very proud of the work that i have done in government. members of this committee have accused me of providing false information when i responded to questions about the irs processing of applications for tax exemption. i have not done anything wrong. i have not given false information to this or any other congressional committee. >> that was lois lerner, head of the tax exempt office for internal revenue service speaking at the start of the hearing. then she said this. >> i have been advised by my counsel to assert my constitutional right not to testify or answer questions related to the subject matter of this hearing. one of the basic functions of the fifth amendment is to protect innocent individuals. and that is the protection i am invoking today. thank you.

>> joining me, julian epstein, former counsel to the house judiciary committee, and former staff director of the oversite committee, now democratic strategist. julian, you saw a little fight break out over the fifth amendment issue in the hearing. i want to play video of what trey gowdy said. >> she just testified, she just waived her fifth amendment right to privilege. you don't get to tell your side of the story, then not be subjected to cross examination. that's not the way it works. she waived her right to fifth amendment privilege by issuing an opening statement. she ought to stand here and answer our questions. [ applause ] >> julian, your response? >> well, i think the first thing you have to understand is a lot of media today were saying that the in vocation of lois lerner of the fifth amendment means the

so-called scandal is widening or deepening, and that's just entirely wrong. the fundamental story here which is that the inspector general found neither the white house, not the department of treasury nor anybody in the president's political operation had any involvement in, had any knowledge of or any way directed the irs activity. there's absolutely no evidence of any of that, and nobody has contradicted that, including the former head of the irs appointed by president bush. this was a low level operation that was conducted by civil servants and was inappropriately supervised by civil servants. >> did you see her waive her fifth amendment right the way trey gowdy thinks she did? >> yes. so let me come to that. that's a very amateur mistake that trey gowdy is making, congressman gowdy is making. first of all, congressional hearing is not like a courtroom. in a courtroom, you have the option of not taking the stand. that's not true when subpoenaed by chairman of a committee. you actually have to appear.

secondly, the general -- when somebody appears and says i am innocent of the charges, i conducted myself honorably, that in no way waives your fifth amendment. what waives the fifth amendment is if you begin to selectively answer questions and not others. general protestations are in no way a waiver of the fifth amendment. congressman gowdy's statement she had waived it i think with all due respect to him is a little amateur hourish. but secondly, lawrence, you hit on this at the beginning of the show, this is what the investigation has now come to. it kind of makes the case we have been trying to make on this, this is much ado about nothing. for the committee to pursue the question about whether or not she waived her right, waived her fifth amendment right would be a monumentally stupid move, even for the most partisan of

republicans. i made the comment before that chairman issa is much more inspector clue so than sam irwin. if they want to take this fight, it would take months and months to prosecute, you would have to get citation of contempt to the committee, you would have to go to the floor, if you could get a contempt citation passed on the floor, you would have to have it enforced, that could take months or years. for the committee to get bogged in this process seems to me to be a very foolish move, even if you're the most partisan republican in this case. but i do think it is very important for viewers to understand why she's invoking the fifth amendment. and again, as i said, it doesn't imply any widening of the so-called scandal. lois lerner in 2011 in june of 2011 learned there was a problem. she tried to correct it. she corrected it ineffectively.

in 2012, she began to brief the committee from february up through april of 2012. chairman issa accused her in a letter the other day of committing false statements, accused her of a crime. so when you're accusing someone of a crime, any attorney will tell the witness to invoke the fifth amendment, but it has absolutely no invocation of the central story, nobody outside the subordinates in the irs had knowledge, activity or involvement. >> and a time when congress understood the most effective investigation is criminal investigation by the fbi, that's already going on, and the only thing congress could do by eliciting her testimony is compromise that investigation. but we will have more on that as we cover this. julian epstein, thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> thank you, lawrence. coming up, the latest from oklahoma governor mary fallin will join me.

in london today, gruesome murder of a british soldier in broad daylight called a terrorist attacked. passersby caught moments of the assault on video that you have to see coming up. are you still sleeping? just wanted to check and make sure that we were on schedule. the first technology of its kind... mom and dad, i have great news. is now providing answers families need. siemens. answers.

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today in oklahoma we got the news that monday's powerful tornado may have caused more than $2 billion in damage. the estimate comes from the oklahoma insurance department after an aerial view of the destruction, a trail of debris

that stretched 17 miles. but of course, the worst loss was the loss of 24 lives, including 10 children. up next, oklahoma governor mary fallin joins me. vo: traveling you definitely end up meeting a lot more people but

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on sunday, may 26th, the president will travel to the oklahoma city area to see firsthand response to devastating tornadoes and weather that impacted the area sunday night and monday. he will visit with families and first responders. >> authorities accounted for the last six people, all adults, thought to be missing after monday's massive tornado in moore, oklahoma. five of those people were found safe, one of them was discovered to be among the dead already accounted for by the state medical examiner's office. in all, 24 people were killed, including 10 children. 353 people were injured. today, homeland security secretary janet napolitano toured the damage in moore, oklahoma and met with governor mary fallin and other state and local officials.

>> i am pleased to hear that the charity is called oklahoma strong. i think one of the things that has impressed me so much has been the strength and resilience of the oklahomans effected by the disaster and are taking charge and moving forward with recovery of their communities, it is very impressive and a model for the rest of the country. on behalf of president obama and on behalf of fema, we will be here to stay until this recovery is complete, so you have our commitment on that. >> joining me now, oklahoma governor mary fallin. thanks for joining us tonight, governor. >> you're welcome. >> governor, have you had a chance since we spoke last night to speak to any of the people that suffered losses in their family, among those that have lost lives? >> i have not spoken to those who have lost relatives, lost

loved ones because i want to let them have their time to mourn and grieve and do what they need to do to help their families now. i have been to the shelter, certainly been in the neighborhood, talked to the citizens. went to the shelter awhile ago, talked to some of the people that had been in the tornado itself, staying at the shelter. also talked to one of the teachers that was a hero at briarwood school that had students and she were trapped under a lot of debris, the fireman pulled her out, it was a remarkable story. lot of good stories today of people that are true heroes, people that survived some traumatic incidents. >> and a lot of amazing minor miracles within what happened and how people survived, some by luck, some by sheer determination and i'm sure going forward it will be the determination that you're going to need as a community now, isn't it?

>> absolutely, you're right. it's amazing that we didn't have larger loss of life. one life is way too many, but considering the debris which you saw and how wide the destruction was, it is remarkable that more people weren't lost in this terrible tragedy, and there are just some absolutely wonderful stories of people that survived, and there are stories now of survivors that are out in the shelters helping other survivors, out delivering food, out helping people. i saw one little five-year-old boy, had a yellow jacket, said security. i was talking to him. he said he was helping out the people that needed some help. >> you had secretary napolitano there today, the president is coming on sunday. what are you hoping for from the president visit? >> we hope it brings encouragement and hope to our citizens. it is an important event that's happened in our community that's caused a lot of grief and having someone come and know that they

recognize the community is suffering will certainly impact people that are suffering so much, and of course, the first responders, those that have been working so hard around the clock, tearing up the debris, providing security with national guard, law enforcement, all of the people have been helping here, it will send a signal that the president recognizes that there are a lot of people that have done a lot of good and the situation has not been real good. >> and governor, the people you're talking about working 24 hours a day, some of them, i keep asking people as i did you last night, when is the last time you slept. some people when i was in oklahoma were telling me well, you know, it has been two nights. it has been an amazing physical effort and you see the trucks parked around different hotels in town where the workers are temporarily being housed, because they're obviously not all local, and it has been just an amazing effort to watch. >> well, it has been.

i was at the briar creek school, talking to firefighters their working at the school, sorting through debris, trying to keep things safe. they had several tents set up. as i talked to the firefighters, they were telling me they had food in one tent, showers in another tent, and slept in another tent. i said you mean you're staying here 24 hours? the gentleman said yes, we are running 12 hours shifts, we stay on site, sleep, shower here, and stay until the job is done. that's true commitment to service on the part of the firefighters, and there are lots of stories like that as you saw when you were here. >> i know you have been going nonstop. governor fallin, thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> well, it was a pleasure to see you. we appreciate you helping get the story out about what the community is going through and the support we have been receiving. thank you. >> thanks, governor. coming up, a british soldier is murdered on a street in the

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security is being tightened at british consulate after a british soldier was murdered, a shockingly gruesome scene on a busy london street. one of the murderers said on a video after the murder it was an act of terrorism. before police shot two suspects at the scene, one covered in blood, carrying a blood drenched knife spoke to a witness who recorded what the murderer had to say. nbc's michelle kosinski has the report from london. >> move back, move back. >> reporter: in the middle of the day in a busy working class neighborhood, next to an army barracks, near an elementary school, a scene of such raw violence few could believe it.

>> look at the guy, he is dead now. >> reporter: people say a young man, nbc news confirmed was an active british soldier, wearing a charity help for heroes t-shirt was walking along the sidewalk when two men in a car apparently drove into him, then got out and started stabbing him with multiple large knives. >> they were hacking at the poor guy, cutting. >> reporter: some eye witnesses say he was decapitated in the attack, and the two suspects then approached people in the horrified crowd. >> telling people to video record them doing it. >> reporter: one made a long political statement, weapons still in his blood covered hands. >> so what, you want to live by the sharia, why does that mean you chase us, call us extremists, kill us. rather, you are extreme, you are the ones. when you drop a bomb, do you think it takes one person or rather the bomb wiped out a whole family? this is the reality. by the way, i saw your mother today, this is my nature. we must fight them as they fight

us. an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. i apologize that women have to witness this today, but in our land, our women have to see this. you people will never be safe. remove your governments, they don't care about you. >> reporter: when police arrived, witnesses say the men charged at officers who opened fire. both were hit, now in hospitals. >> groups deciding to carry out these attacks is part of a broader trend we are seeing. the brutality in this one seems to be a new element we haven't seen before. >> reporter: prime minister david cameron is coming home from france for an emergency meeting on what this was, whether others could be involved, or other attacks planned. >> there are strong indications that it is a terrorist incident. >> reporter: tonight, the two suspects are formally under arrest, and the government is increasing security at army barracks across london. one of the men did indicate they

targeted the victim because he was a soldier. michelle kosinski, nbc news, london. >> horrifying. krystal ball joins me next. [ male announcer ] tenacity plated in chrome. determination covered in mud. fight firing on six cylinders. the new ram 1500 with best-in-class fuel economy. guts. glory. ram. motor trend's 2013 truck of the year. in that time there've been some good days. and some difficult ones. but, through it all we've persevered, supporting some of the biggest ideas in modern history. so why should our history matter to you? because for more than two centuries,

we've been helping ideas move from ambition to achievement. ♪ and the next great idea could be yours. ♪ and the next great idea could be yours. are you still sleeping? just wanted to check and make sure that we were on schedule. the first technology of its kind... mom and dad, i have great news. is now providing answers families need. siemens. answers. republican david vitter offered and senate democrats accepted an amendment that would bar anyone that's been convicted of certain violent crimes from

ever getting food stamps. what that means is a 19-year-old who commits a crime does his time, and 20, 25 years later, after working, paying taxes for years, finds himself laid off in a recession, needs food stamps to help feed his family, his children will pay for his crime by going hungry. the farm bill which is actually a massive agriculture socialism program that subsidizes farmers no matter their criminal record is still being considered on the senate floor. david vitter's vicious amendment can be struck from the bill, if somehow human decency prevails in the united states senate. up next, anthony weiner's political come back. [ musick ] i knew there were a lot of tech jobs

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the week after former south carolina governor mark sanford was sworn in as a member of congress, former member of congress anthony weiner decided it is time for his second act in politics, too. i don't have to remind you why anthony weiner resigned from congress, do i? if so, i can use it as an excuse to show some of the pictures he tweeted in what turned out to be the first congressional sex scandal in history in which the congressman in question was not accused of actually touching anything other than his camera phone. and with $4.8 million in campaign funds, anthony weiner is in second place in a new quinnipiac poll on the mayor's race. 25% of registered democrats say they would vote for city council speaker christine quinn. 15% would vote for anthony

weiner, bill thompson and bill deblasio tied at 10% each. mr. wienner announced his candidacy on youtube. digital channel. accompanied by the campaign's most important asset, mrs. weiner. >> every day starts right here. and it is the best part of my day. >> i made some big mistakes, i know i let a lot of people down. but i also learned some tough lessons. i am running for mayor because i have been struggling to make it my entire life. i hope i get a second chance to work for you. new york city should be the middle class capital of the world, i have some ideas how to do it, 64 of them on my website. take a look, tell me what you think. >> we love this state, no one will work harder to make it better than anthony. >> i will fight for you every single day. thank you for watching.

>> well, krystal ball, he has 64 ideas. here we go. >> here we go. i love that i have a family, did i mention i have a family and a wife and a family. he's striking the right tone. at 15% out of the gates with very high name recognition, a lot of money in the bank, i think he has a good shot at making it to runoff, if no one gets 40%, which no one is at, they go to runoff. then all bets are off. christine quinn, the frontrunner, her poll numbers have been declining. anthony weiner, at this point has to hold steady to make it to the runoff. >> he is the only candidate in the race whose negatives are known. >> right. >> you're not going to come up with a negative ad on anthony weiner that tells anybody anything they don't know. the other ones have lower visibility. people start to discover things about quinn and others, and think oh, maybe i don't like

that. >> i think that's exactly right. his challenge is to me not so much the photos themselves, there's more of a trust issue in two directions. one is, is he about anything other than himself? is he really just interested in this office for his own ambition to rehab his image? i think that's an obstacle. >> what would give you that idea. >> i know, crazy anyone would think that. i think that's one obstacle he has to overcome. the other issue that is surrounding the photos is again, always not the scandal but the coverup, he lied to new yorkers. he said i did not do this. and i think that is fair game for his opponents. >> he is lying in a territory that american voters have said in clinton case anyway we get it, let's just talk about taxes and real things about government. >> that's true, although i will say clinton is more charming and more skilled politician than anthony weiner who is a decent politician. bill clinton has more friends.

one of the reasons anthony weiner had to resign from congress is not because of the scandal himself but because his own party basically said you need to go. his high profile friends are not stepping up for him here, he is not likely to get any big endorsements in the city. a challenge to overcome. he can run as sort of the outsider, i don't need help from these guys, not married to special interest, i am going to represent you the middle class voter and that's obviously his message. >> if it comes down to one on one, anthony weiner against quinn, he can't run any negative ads against her, can he? >> i think it would be very tough. i do think she's a tough opponent for him to go against and one of the skills that he has been great at in the past is his combative style. his ability to get into combat. and he has to totally put that aside and run a relentlessly positive message focused i've got my 64 ideas and here they are and i am your champion

campaigner. >> this is one we will be watching. we will be covering a mayor's race here on national tv. krystal ball, thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> thanks, lawrence. peek-a-boo politics. let's play hardball. good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. let me start tonight with this. there are two ways to look at this irs scandal. one is to blame it on the bureaucrats. the other is to blame it on the white house. someone through mind control perhaps somehow got a line into that cincinnati office. i'm inclined to buy the first perspective. i see why millions of people why? that tired old government game