that's no november. memorial day is different. memorial day is the unofficial start of summer and it is a fine day in which to hold a barbecue but in 237 years, 7,000 men and women have given their lives for this well, the president delivered the most important war policy speech of his presidency today. republicans continued their ignorance-fueled war on the irs. and john boehner actually repeated the single stupidest thing he has ever said. >> now to the investigation into the targeting of conservative groups. >> we are going to move now to the irs scandal. >> by the irs. >> i'm not interested who is going to resign. i'm interested who is going to jail. >> republican leaders are not backing down. >> republicans are champing at the bit. >> somebody made the decision. >> to it tie this irs mess to the president. >> it wasn't some low-level

employees in cincinnati. >> you have lois learner come forward and plead the fifth. >> i think it raises questions. >> we're seeing from this administration an arrogance of power. >> today the president will deliver a major speech on terrorism. >> counterterrorism policy in the post 9/11 era. >> in some cases, i believe we compromised our basic values. >> and the justification for drone strikes. >> america does not take strikes to punish individuals. >> why does president obama make this speech now? >> we must define the nature and scope of this struggle. >> my own view is it's better late than never. >> or else it will define us. >> it has been suggested that we are wacko birds. >> ted speaks for a lot of americans. >> are the american people unhappy with us? of course they're unhappy with us. >> sick and tired of everything. >> one reason, they don't see us accomplishing anything. >> >> this disagreement is over one issue and one issue only. >> the debt limit is so consequential for our country. >> can the united states senate raise our debt limit. >> we finally get a budget, stay up all night and because somebody doesn't want to raise

the debt limit -- >> the at the time limit cannot be part of it . it has to be dealt with separately. >> we are not going to go to congress. we are not going to win every fight here. we're not going to win every battle here. >> it has been suggested that we are wacko birds. >> we could be doing so many things, and we're not. one day after lois lerner refused to testify to congress, she was put on administrative leave by the new acting commission of the internal revenue service, chosen by president obama. the move came after the senate permanent subcommittee on investigations chairman carl levin, joined by the ranking member, john mccain, sent a letter to the new acting commissioner, daniel, urging him to suspend her immediately. chairman levin has been conducting an investigation over a year. the letter says the subcommittee asked the irs why it was not enforcing the 501(c)(4) statute, which states that social welfare

organizations should be used exclusively for the promotion of social welfare, and instead the more lenient, that it may be used primarily for social welfare. also asked the irs about how they reviewed applications filed by certain democratic and republican-leaning 501(c)(4)s. ms. lerner and seven irs colleagues spent six hours being interviewed on a bipartisan basis by subcommittee staff. ms. lerner failed to disclose the internal controversy over the search terms used by the cincinnati office to identify 501(c)(4) groups for further review. ms. lerner also failed to disclose that she was fully aware of these issues as early as june 2011. today the chairman of the house empty on oversight and government reform, darrell issa,

released this statement after consulting with counsel. chairman issa has concluded that ms. lerner's fifth amendment assertion is no longer valid. she remains under subpoena. the committee is looking at recalling her for testimony. today house speaker john boehner said this. >> today is a new day. which means that we're sure to get a new story from the white house. on the irs scandal. white house was made aware but last month. yet no one, no one thought they should tell the president. fairly inconceivable to me. we are going to continue to seek answers until we get to the truth. >> last night on fox news, speaker boehner repeated his breathtakingly stupid plea that someone, anyone, go to jail. and he did so, of course, without saying what crime someone would go to jail for. >> as i said last week, i'm not interested in who is going to resign. i'm interested who is going to jail.

>> on fox news, john boehner also said that -- alex hayes -- you know, i should look over here before -- >> anyway, go ahead. >> that's an idea. alex hayes. >> i love you. >> exactly. >> got to gavel this meeting to order here. so there's boehner, saying, you know, someone is going to go to jail. he's repeated it last night to greta van susteren, who didn't say for what. you know, like no one there cares about that. any reading of the law shows there is no even conceivable possibility of a crime, based on anything that we have yet heard. we're going to have to hear something new for there to be a crime here. >> i mean, lawrence, if ineptitude was a crime, john boehner would have a life sentence, right? this -- what has happened? from what i've read, from the investigations in the "l.a. times" and "new york times," this was a bunch of overwhelmed civil servants in an office in cincinnati, they were getting

70,000 applications a year, and there were 200 of them. they were inundated. they were doing what the "new york times" describes as triage to deal with this. and maybe their form of triage was bad. and they didn't think about the political optics, they didn't think of the ramifications. but at the end of the day, no one has proved any malice. there is no crime here. it's really bad management. >> in fact, even the inspector general, under oath yesterday in the same hearing that lois lerner pled the fifth, or according to darrell issa, constitutional law scholar -- by the way, i'm can curious as to what exactly they do when they recall her. if she pleads the fifth again, do they strap her to the chair and make her talk? pleading the fifth is just being refused to compel testimony. >> right. >> theoretically, they would hold her in contempt of congress. that actually requires a vote of congress. it's a bad road to go down. it won't get them anywhere. >> criminally, to get back to the open parenthetical, the problem is that, you know, the inspector general testified under oath, or appears to be no

criminal wrong towing here. doing here. david k. johnson said on my show, there is now an active doj open investigation to what happened. she kind of has to plead the fifth under those circumstances. it would be malpractice by her lawyer not to advise her to plead the fifth if she is being right now as we speak investigated for criminal wrongdoing, even if the consensus seems to be from everyone that knows what was going on. and she is pleading the fifth in a body where the head of it has said someone has to go to jail. >> exactly. >> but the -- it used to be -- alex, that the congress would defer -- as soon as the justice department said we're investigating, they would go, oh, well, you have way better tools than we do. you're also professionals, we're not. you know. we're politicians. and they would get out of the way and let the fbi and the criminal investigation go forward. now darrell issa and boehner are saying, no, no, let us do this. >> and can i also -- can we talk about the convenient use of the constitution by republicans? this is a party that is sort waged war on a broad and some

would say -- irresponsible interpretation of the second amendment. when it comes to the fifth amendment, which is a hugely important amendment, they have taken an incredibly narrow definition and they are bastardizing the meaning of the fifth amendment, no great surprise. then with the ap probes and the first amendment, they have a very convenient interpretation for each amendment, insofar as it is politically expedient for them to interpret one way or the other. >> what the fifth amendment does do is render lois lerner dysfunctional. she is at the point where she can't even talk to her boss about this is what i did. so correctly, president obama's new guy in there running it said you just have to go home. you can't be here. >> yeah, and i also think, having watched this whole thing unfold, and i think you and i have slightly different takes. >> i believe i have a different take from everyone. here's my bumper sticker. the irs it nothing wrong. >> right. >> i believe i'm alone in that particular category.

>> and i think what i do think is what has been strange to me is, as you have gone through, if you just read the ig's report, the highest ranking person who was the most responsible is lois lerner, whether you think something wrong was done or not. if there is anyone who is going to fall on their sword to have accountability, it would be lois lerner. instead the two people above her who as far as we know had essentially nothing to do with any of this. and so what strikes me about this whole thing, every day we woman into the office and what should we do on the show tonight. and a lot of times there will be a headline that's really awesome. someone clicked on it. let's do that, that's awesome. and then you read into the story and it's like, oh. it's not awesome. it's not interesting. >> the airs go out of the tires. >> kind of this boring and that is exactly what this story is. it was like the first headline was like, whoa, obama administration targets tea party groups for heightened scrutiny on tax application? i read that and i was like, man. and then -- >> that's why this -- >> but that set the media frame. and they will never release from that frame. there's no amount of information.

>> i agree. yes and no. my feeling is that as it comes out -- as the media is forced to cover what is essentially a somewhat boring story of bureaucratic malfeasance or overwhelmedness or bureaucrat incompetencies or just bureaucratic bureaucraticness. it becomes less and less interesting. i'm genuinely curious the degree to which this have the kind of legs -- >> they're bundling this into this giant burrito of impeachment. now you're hearing michele bachmann asking -- constituents ask every weekend why we aren't impeaching this man. inhofe -- they will take this as far as they can go. at the same time, quasi reasoned minds like charles krauthammer saying, hey, guys, memo, to not try and impeach the president. >> here is the "wall street journal" this may float up to the level there is less -- "the wall street journal" saying e-mails and other documents

released wednesday suggest the internal revenue service's procedures used to target conservative groups for added scrutiny were developed by lower-level employees. they've got the e-mails, the committees have the e-mails. if they had one that said oh, look, look. here -- here it came from the boss, make sure you do this. >> i mean, we should be really clear here. richard nixon sat in the white house and literally ordered audits of political enemies. and that was a massive abuse of power. and the thing that -- the real fundamental issue here, and i think the fundamental misunderstanding, not just a tax law, is just the notion of what the relationship between the white house and the irs is and the white house and doj in another. focusing on the white house and irs, what has been so strange about this, in the beginning, what does obama know and when did he know it, and now they got to the other side of the issue with the criticism, like the obama administration should have been more involved, should have told the president about the ig report. no, no, no, no. >> did the right thing in not

telling him. >> everyone should be hands off on the ig report, because if you start mucking around in the process of an ig report, then you have done something really scandal-worthy. >> the other crazy chant i've been hearing in every hour almost of media coverage has been why isn't someone fired, why isn't someone fired. the president cannot fire anyone at the irs. >> we don't want the president firing anybody. >> he can't. >> the media does not recognize that. they just go, why hasn't he expired the speaker of the house. the same question. >> we should say, it is for good reason. >> right. >> and ezra klein has written a piece about how hard it is to punish people slash fire them. civil servants -- it's a multi hundred-day process. and that's not fast enough for most republicans. i will say, i know stephen colbert funded a super pac. i think you should fund a 501(c)(4). >> exclusively. >> exclusively versus primarily. 501(c)(4).

>> yes, america needs it. >> primarily do politics. >> i mean, look, my solution is very simple. enforce the law as written. >> mccain letters. >> that's right. enforce the law as written. and you know, i doubt the media is ever going -- you have hopes the immediate where a is going to get to that stage of this. >> no, i just have hopes that just from a like -- i have to produce a television show every day level, is this interesting, i just -- like, it's not -- i don't think it's that interesting. i mean, i think the actual details of it end up not sustaining the drama that is there. you know, what was the headline was really dramatic. what is -- what are the bullet -- the third through 15th paragraphs are not dramatic. >> page 2. >> alex wagner, chris hayes. alex's show five days a week. >> so they say. >> chris hayes, the 8:00 p.m. guy right here in this very studio. can we reveal that, that there is a trick that goes on that switches it from one to the other? we just did.

coming up, president obama in his own words on the future of war. joy reid will join me. and it's ted cruz versus the world. republican senator ted cruz is now attacking republicans. and in the rewrite, the pope rewrites the church's attitude toward atheists. meet the 5-passenger ford c-max hybrid. c-max one. c-max two. that's a super fuel- efficient hybrid for me. and a long range plug-in hybrid for you. now, let's review. introducing the ford c-max hybrid and the ford c-max energi plug-in hybrid. say hi to the c-max hybrids.

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7-year-old jane richard was discharged from boston children's hospital this morning. jane lost a leg in the boston marathon bombing and was hospitalized for 39 days where she underwent 12 surgeries. her 8-year-old brother, martin, was the youngest person killed in the bombing, and her mother, at the denise, suffered a head injury. the richard family released this statement today. while we remain devastated over

martin's death and all that has happened to us, jane's determination for getting better is an inspiring source of strength. for the entire family. up next, the president's speech on the future of war. [ male announcer ] progress isn't about where you've been. ♪ it's about where you're going. the new ram 1500. best-in-class 25 mpg. ♪ north american truck of the year. ♪ the truck of texas. better residual value than ford and chevy. it's the fastest-growing truck brand in america. guts. glory. ram.

we must define the nature and scope of this struggle or else it will define us. we have to be mindful of jay madison's warning that no nation could preserve its the freedom in the midst of continual warfare. >> that was from the president's speech today entitled "the future of our fight against terrorism." now, we're going to talk about

the speech, because that's what we do here. but more importantly than that, i want you to hear this speech. i want the you to hear the president in his own words, as much as we have time for, anyway. here was his explanation and defense of the use of drones. >> beyond the afghan theater, we only target al qaeda and its associated forces. and even then, the use of drones is heavily constrained. america does not take strikes when we have the ability to capture individual terrorists. our preference is always to detain, interrogate and prosecute. america cannot take strikes wherever we choose. our actions are bound by consultations with partners and respect for state sovereignty. america does not take strikes to punish individuals. we act against terrorists who pose a continuing and imminent

threat to the american people. and when there are no other governments capable of effectively addressing the threat. and before any strike is taken, there must be near certainty that no civilians will be killed or injured. the highest standard we can set. this last point is critical, because much of the criticism about drone strikes, both here at home and abroad, understandably centers on reports of civilian casualties. there's a wide gap between u.s. assessments of such casualties and nongovernmental reports. nevertheless, it is a hard fact that u.s. strikes have resulted in civilian casualties. a risk that exists in every war. and for the families of those civilians, no words or legal

construct can justify their loss. for me and those in my chain of command, those deaths will haunt us, as long as we live. just as we are haunted by the civilian casualties that have occurred throughout conventional fighting in afghanistan. and iraq. but as commander in chief, i must weigh these heartbreaking tragedies against the alternatives. to do nothing in the face of terrorist networks would invite far more civilian casualties. not just in our cities at home and our facilities abroad, but also in the very places like sonai and kabul and mogadishu where terrorists seek a foothold. remember that the terrorists we are after target civilians. and the death toll from their

acts of terrorism against muslims dwarfs any estimate of civilian casualties from drone strikes. >> the president explained why he targeted anwar awlaki, an american citizen in yemen. >> he was continuously trying to kill people. he helped oversee the 2010 plot to detonate explosive devices on two u.s.-bound cargo planes. he was involved in planning to blow up an airliner in 2009. when farouk abdulmutallab, the christmas day bomber, awlaki hosted him, helped him tape a martyrdom video to be shown after the attack. and his last instructions were to blow up the airplane when it was over american soil. i would have detained and prosecuted awlaki if we captured him before he carried out a

plot, but we couldn't. and as president, i would have been derelict in my duty had i not authorized the strike that took him out. >> no speech would be complete without someone from code pink challenging the president. >> you are commander in chief. you can close guantanamo today. >> why don't you let me address it, ma'am. we insist judicial review be available for every detainee. ma'am, let me finish. let me finish, ma'am. i -- this is part of free speech, is you being able to speak, but also you listening. suspect me being able to speak. all right? >> joy reid, president had a lot to handle in there on policy and a very persistent speaker. i'm not going to call her a heckler, because she had real points to make, and the president respected the points she had to make. a very unusual exchange.

>> i thought that wound up being the most important part of the speak for me. because the way he handled that heckler -- not a heckler, protester, someone about what she perceived his true power to be to close guan tan mow and stop civilian deaths and he said at one point i'm going to go off script and say that woman's concerns are valid, because in a lot of ways, lawrence, being the president is the end of idealism. because that woman could have probably -- he probably would have agreed with her in 2004 and 2005 in saying there has got to be some way that the president of the united states, with that immense power could close something like guantanamo or find some other way to deal with americans who have joined the forces, aligning against the united states. but in the white house, it's a lot more complicated. being commander in chief is a hell of a lot more complicated and that's what he was trying to explain. >> well, to govern is to choose. and the choices are never easy. and critics of government very frequently frame the choices as easier than they are. if you've got a known terrorist

who by all -- everyone's evaluation involved is a very seriously deadly player against the united states, your choices are, you can risk american soldiers lives to go get them, as he explained today. you can take them out with a drone and risk other people's lives in his vicinity as a result of that, or you can to absolutely nothing. and see what happens. >> yeah. >> those are your choices. which one do you want. >> exactly. and he made the point that the osama bin laden raid, which is in a lot of ways the gold standard of going after terrorists. it was completely successful. even though they did have that first chopper crash. but it was a success and the way the president is a victim of his own success. the people say why can't you just put special forces on the ground and go and get anwar awlaki. but as he explained, you can't do that with every case. because there are also consequences to that, the backlash of the pakistani people who say, wait a minute, who authorized you to come into our country and go in and pick up somebody and get them without our government participating? you can't keep doing that.

i thought it was fascinating. it was almost like being in a lecture, because he is a constitutional law professor and you kind of see him thinking through about these complicated issues. what if an american had joined a panzer division back in world war ii and we knew it, we knew he was a citizen and where he was and planning raids against the united states, to make it really simple. >> it wouldn't even be slightly controversial to kill him. there wouldn't be any discussion of it in that case. you know, it didn't reveal anything to me about what the president thinking -- what his thinking is on this. it was, this is exactly what i had assumed your thinking was. but i realized, oh, i've been assuming it. >> right. >> because he hasn't really laid out this speech before. and it makes me wonder why he hasn't. it seems like this is a speech he could have given months ago. and in certain ways, years ago. >> yeah, and i think all presidents always take into account the risk of explaining their thinking. and exposing any weakness by

saying i am deliberating. it isn't just as easy for me to say run and gun, get him. there is a thought process and i think all presidents have that fear that the opposition will use deliberation against them. look, lawrence, i wish george w. bush had done this speech, to be honest. i wish we knew the deliberative process that went into his thinking, because during his presidency, we did a lot of things that struck many of us, including myself as being outside the bounds of what we thought america was about. but you want to know the thinking of the president, but at the same time, we just tell presidents keep us safe, right? so they're damned if they do, and damned if they don't. we don't want to know every piece of the puzzle when they're trying to keep us safe. we just want them to do it. and so now we're watching a president just lay it out. and i thought it was important. it was a good civics lesson. >> people tried to ask, what did it feel like for george w. bush when he discovered that, you know, this thing turned out to be false, there were civilian casualties, try to get a reaction like that from condoleezza rice, how did you feel. they wouldn't give you a word about it. here is somebody who is saying

we agonize over this. we have to deal with it. we have to confront it, but we do agonize. i want to show how the woman who spoke in the middle of the president's speech found her way into his conclusion toward the end when he was describing what victory will look like in this kind of war. >> our victory against terrorism won't be measured in a surrender ceremony at a battleship or a statue being pulled to the ground. victory will be measured in this parents taking their kids to school. immigrants coming to our shores. fans taking in a ball game. a veteran starting a business. a bustling city street. a citizen shouting her concerns at a president. >> that is the real test of freedom. >> absolutely. and when he was saying that, i kept just thinking, you know,

freedom from fear. you know, that was one of the four freedoms that fdr laid out. it's impossible to have in a free society to be completely free from fear. and children aren't necessarily safe in school, you're not safe if you take your kids to the movies, going to the boston marathon. so freedom from fear is impossible oh. but i kind of like that it's still the president's ideal. >> joy reid, thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> thanks. coming up, it's republican versus republican in the united states senate. and today the boy scouts of america voted to end the ban on gay members. zach wahls will join me on that. ♪ [ grunts ] yowza! that's why i eat belvita at breakfast. it's made with delicious ingredients and carefully baked to release steady energy that lasts... we are golfing now, buddy! [ grunts ] ...all morning long. i got it! for the win! uno mas! getting closer! belvita breakfast biscuits --

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swift told us of two fictional lands. lilliput and blefusco that had been at war for years over which end of the egg to open first. in lilliput the big egg and the other the small end of the egg. and the big enders and little enders battled endlessly. >> if that man drives you crazy, you are not alone. in the spotlight tonight, senator ted cruz versus the republican party. as senator cruz and his tea party pals, kentucky's rand paul, utah mike lee and rubio have been blocking a procedure in the senate that allows them to enter notions with the house of representatives on a budget. the tea party gang of four wants to tie the hands of the senators appointed to the conference

negotiating team with the house, and not allow those senators to include any discussions whatsoever, not even a discussion of tax increases or raising the debt ceiling. usually no negotiating limits put on senators in these negotiations with the house. so senator john mccain, who has been there a while, cannot quite believe what he is seeing. >> isn't that true that the people that the conferees would be held with on the other side of the capitol happen to be a majority of our party. >> well -- >> so we don't trust the majority party on the other side of the aisle to come to conference and not hold to the fiscal discipline that we want to see happen. isn't that a little bit bizarre? >> so let's get on with the process. >> the senior senator from arizona urged this body to trust

the republicans. let me be clear. i don't trust the republicans. and i don't trust the democrats. >> steve, talk about a straight talk express. i don't trust the republicans. i guess ted cruz is being honest there. >> he is in a way. and it sort of reflects i would say in the last generation of two, two major revolutions in the republican party. in the first one, very straight forward, happened about 30 years ago, made the republican party from a party -- a real big ten ideological party into an ideologically conservative party. late '70s, '80s, primary challenges like the old liberal republican senator from new york pushed out and became an anti tax party. straight forward. what ted cruz represents and rand paul, mike lee from utah, they represent this new revolution that's not so much about ideology, it's about tactics, attitude, it's about absolutism. it's about a total refusal to

negotiate. the idea that negotiating with democrats, having conversations with democrats, is akin to surrendering to the enemy. and we're the kind of republican, we're the true believers, the outsiders, we don't trust the establishment, because the establishment is always going to sell us out and selling us out means talking to, compromising with, communicating with the enemy. and the thing is, the thing that gives that power is that kind of message, that kind of exchange you just saw on the senate floor. what ted cruz said sells to the republican base today. what john mccain was saying, as sensible as it was, that's treason to the republican base these days. >> it has nothing to do with governing or even their intention to govern. they don't actually intend to prevail on this. this is entirely about fund-raising. it's entirely about exciting people. and actually, that's the part mccain doesn't get or maybe does privately. what cruz is up to, and rubio, it's all about playing to people outside of the senate. they don't care about this

procedure. >> and the problem is, the problem for the sake of governing this country right now, if you care about that, that's where the power is in the republican party. it's outside of the senate, outside of the house, outside of the capitol hill and in these republican primaries. these republican primaries that are dominated by very conservative voters who take their cues from leaders like rand paul, ted cruz, talk radio hosts who tell them that what you just saw john mccain do on on the senate floor is exactly what's been wrong with the republican party, exactly what's been wrong with washington. and that's why you need to vote in the new tea party candidate to take out whoever. >> and the thing that they're stopping, because they're worried that, you know, you will raise the debt ceiling with this thing, it is a resolution. it is not a law. it cannot raise the debt ceiling. there is nothing they could possibly do in this discussion between the senate and the house that would raise the debt ceiling. and these guys don't even know that. >> well, and the other thing, it comes on the heels of what has been one of the favorite talking points of some of the same people on the right for the last few years. those senate democrats, they won't pass a budget. it's been 800 days.

it's been 900 days. they passed a budget. this is the next step. >> yeah, exactly. up with steve, saturdays and sundays at 8:00 a.m. eastern. steve, thank you very much. >> sure. coming up in the rewrite, atheism scores a big political victory, and the pope finds common ground with atheists. vo: traveling you definitely end up meeting a lot more people but a friend under water is something completely different. i met a turtle friend today so, you don't get that very often. it seemed like it was more than happy to have us in his home.

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oh, my goodness! yes! >> michele bachmann has inspired the author of a new romance novel, "fires of siberia." the author says the lead character was inspired by bachmann, the hero winn is a conservative candidate. congratulations, michelle. what happened when the arizona house of representatives invited an atheist to give their morning prayer? we will show you the video. accomplishing even little things can become major victories. i'm phil mickelson, pro golfer. when i was diagnosed with psoriatic arthritis,

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you guys did a great job. and i guess you've got to thank the lord, right? >> yeah. >> do you thank the lord for that split-second decision? >> i -- i'm actually an athiest. >> oh, you are, all right. >> in other atheism news this week, the pope has rewritten the church's historically harsh attitude toward nonbelievers. maybe like all thinking people, the pope is a ricky gervais fan.

and maybe the pope is secretly following ricky on twitter, where their british atheist has almost twice as many followers as the pope. and if that doesn't prove that twitter is the devil's playground, i don't know what does. in his weekly radio address, the pope got all performance arty and inserted an imaginary atheist in a dialogue with the pope. the pope said, this commandment for everyone to do good, i think, is a beautiful path toward peace. if we each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter. we need that so much. we must meet one another doing good. and here's where the pope inserts the imaginary atheist,

whose line is, but i don't believe, father. i am an atheist! to which, the pope says, but do good. we will meet one another there. which is a very big improvement on, you will burn in hell forever, which was the official catholic position for the first half of the 20th century. ready to meet the pope doing good, whenever and wherever he wants, is arizona state representative juan mendez. when representative mendez, a democrat, was invited to give the morning's opening prayer to start the day of doing good in the house of representatives, the republican-controlled house discovered what happens when you invite an atheist to give your opening prayer. >> most prayers in this room begin with a request about your heads. i would like to ask that you not bow your heads.

i would like to ask you take a moment to look around the room at all the men and women here in this moment, sharing this extraordinary experience of being alive and dedicating ourselves to working toward improving the lives of the people of our state. this is a room in which there are many challenging debates, many moments of tension, of ideological division, of frustration. but there is also a room where, as my secular humanist traditions stress, by the very fact of being human, we have much more in common than we have differences. we share the same spectrum of potential for care, for compassion, for fear, for joy, for love. carl sagan once wrote, for small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love. there is in the political process much to bear. in this room, let us cherish and celebrate our share of humanists, our share of reason, our share of love for people of our state, constitution and testimony accuracy. and let us root our policy-making process in these values that are relevant to all arizonans, regardless of

religious belief or nonbelief. in gratitude and love, in compassion, let us work together for a better arizona. thank you. >> that prayer got a rewrite the next day in the arizona house by republican representative, steve smith, who said that representative mendez's prayer was not a prayer at all and so he asked the house to join him in a second daily prayer that day. this one in repentance for the atheist, nonprayer that the house visited upon the house of representatives the day before. but not all republicans thought that repentance was necessary. the speaker, the republican speaker of the arizona house said he appreciated what representative smith was doing, but he didn't have a problem with representative menendez's atheist prayer. so atheism marches on. in of all places arizona. this day calls you.

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tonight more than 1,400 volunteer leaders of the boy scouts of america voted to allow gay members to join the troops, beginning in january 2014. the boy scouts' ban on gay adults serving as scout masters remain in place. here's what the president of the boy scouts of america said tonight. >> this policy, we reaffirmed our duty to god. it's a challenging complex. it's a difficult decision. but we're moving forward together. and within our movement, everyone agrees one thing. no matter how you feel about this issue, can kids are better off in scouting. our vision is to serve every kid. we want every kid to have a place where they belong, to learn and grow and feel protected.

>> joining me now, msnbc's jonathan capehart and by skype, zack walls, founder of scouts for equality. zack, your reaction to today's developments. >> we're very pleased, lawrence. it's a really big deal, a big step forward. and like he said, it's not enough. and parents like mine, a lesbian couple, will continue to be banned from the organization. but i think what today's movement shows us is that the boy scouts are able to reconsider their position on this issue and it's likely they will continue to do so as we move forward. >> jonathan, your reaction. >> i think it's a terrific decision to allow openly gay scout troops. openly gay kids who want to join the scouts will now be able to do so. i do think zach raises the very important issue, you talked about in the intro, is that gay scout leaders continue to be

barred from the scouts. and that's something that the boy scouts of america is going to have to address sooner rather than later. because once those scouts, those gay scouts, you know, learn all of these terrific things from the boy scouts, then they're going to drum these leaders out? these wonderful kids out once they become adults? it doesn't make sense. so the boy scouts of america, i think, has set themselves up, in a positive -- in a positive way to get rid of this ban on gay leaders. because once they see that gay kids aren't doing anything to the scouts, other than learning all the good values that come from that, then there's no choice but to allow adults be scout leaders. gay adults. >> there is a pushback from the family research council. they told "the new york tiles times," the fallout is going to be tremendous, there is going to be a loss of hundreds of thousands of boys and parents. this great institution is going to be vitiated by the intrusion of a political agenda.

zach wahls? >> a few folks will walk away but will pale in comparison before the supreme court. and so it's our point of view that until we have full inclusion, the boy scouts probably won't begin to fully rebound. but this step forward is definitely a positive step. like jonathan said, it really seems to us, the young scouts who are going to be openly gay, 16, 17, earning their eagle scout award, are going to be some of the most effective agents of change we have ever seen. because they're going to be in places like the deep south and places like utah winning hearts and minds, because this is a nationwide nondiscrimination policy and not some kind of a local option. so even in places where, you know, we are still a little ways to go when it comes to lgbt rights, we're going to have

protection at one of the nation's most preeminent youth development programs. >> jonathan, this takes place in a larger societal environment, where we have more states legalizing same-sex marriage. we have major american athlete and professional sport, nba player coming out for the first time. while still playing -- collins. just weeks before this. there seems to be -- this seems to be part of that momentum. >> right. there's been major momentum when it comes to lgbt issues, lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender issues. three states this month alone have approved marriage equality. next month, certainly by the end of next month, the supreme court will rule on the cases involving the so-called defense of marriage act and california's ban on same sex marriage, proposition 8. jason collins came out, i believe it was may 1 or -- earlier this month. lots of things are happening.

lots of things are moving in the right direction, in a positive direction. and it's because of people in general. but young people in particular who are pushing this country to open its eyes to the people around -- to the people around it, the people around them. and to -- you know, show and accept the fact that not everyone is the same. everyone is different. but at least here in this country, everyone shares the same values and discrimination is not one of those values. but equality is. >> zach wahls, it seems the boy scouts and any other organization that is going to have an you can inclusionary policy based on something like this runs the -- not so long-term risk, fairly short term risk, of becoming a subculture, a kind of odd subculture off in a corner that would eventually not be able to be real participants in what is becoming the more mainstream view.

>> absolutely. and that was our greatest fear. speaking as an eagle scout myself, i spent more than 12 years in the program. i love scouting, it made me the man i am today, and taught me a lost incredible lifelong skills, gave me some of my best friends. i had some of my most important values. so this is an experience we want to be, you know -- accessible to all of america's young men. and the reality, if it they had maintained this ban on gay youth, they would have continued to move further and further from the mainstream from where the rest of america is. that's not something we want to have happen. we want the scouting experience available to all men and it is relevant and people want to participate. if you look at the polling data, even the self-identified conservatives, 45 to 42, support ending the ban on gay scouts. so i think that's really a testament about -- like jonathan was saying, where we are with discrimination not being an american value. equality being an american value. and how important this

organization can be and why -- ending the ban is critical to maintaining its relevancy, to maintaining its relevancy in american society. >> eagle scout zach wahls and jonathan capehart, thank you for joining me tonight. >> thanks, lawrence. obama tells it like it is. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. let me start tonight with this. president obama was at the top of his form today speaking logically and authentically to the american people about something truly important. protecting the u.s. in a time of danger. most powerful, i think, was the clarity of his arguments regarding drones. the targeting of americans who are making war on their country right now, and what to do with those prisoners down in guantanamo bay. on each point of action he