true commander. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in new york. let me start tonight with this. president obama showed the guts yesterday to put the terrorism threat in perspective. it is a threat, he said. it is not a threat to american existence, nor is it a strategic threat in the way the soviet union once was. put more sharply, we americans don't have to take an ends justifies the means approach to national security. we can do what works and fits with our values and international law. we can protect ourselves without denying the very freedoms we cherish.

under bush/cheney, especially cheney, the country was forced into a war against a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 and posed neither a strategic nor an existential threat to us, a war cheney justified as if it did. we were on a war footing. that was the national mindset the neocons and fellow hawks knew they could justify everything from torture, to war, to propaganda, manufactured, of course, in the vice president's office as well. remember that? the aluminum tubes? the notion that saddam hussein had a mysterious airplane that would deliver nuclear bombs on america. dick cheney sold the notion of an unending orwellian war on terrorism as if it were a country somewhere, a country called terrorism when much of what he accomplished from putting troops in saudi arabia, to fighting an unjustified war in iraq, to waterer boarding did less to subdue terrorism than it did to give our enemies pictures and causes for war. well, obama is acting to fix that, putting the terrorism threat where it belongs, as a serious danger that should keep us on the alert but not squash individual freedom or open

national debate. david corn is national bureau chief for "mother jones" magazine. patrick murphy is a former democratic congressman from pennsylvania and first iraq war veteran to serve in the united states congress. both are msnbc contributors. let's take a look, gentlemen, at what president obama said yesterday. let's take a look at this part where he rejects the war on terrorism nostrum. >> neither i or any president can promise the total defeat of terror. we will never erase the evil that lies in the hearts of some human beings nor stamp out every danger to our open society. but what we can do, what we must do, is dismantle networks that pose a direct danger to us and make it less likely for new groups to gain a foothold. all the while maintaining the freedoms and ideals that we defend. and to define that strategy, we have to make decisions based not on fear but on hard-earned

wisdom. >> david, i think there was a lot of truth in that report yesterday. i didn't realize it until i heard it again. in this element, a couple elements, actually three of them here come to mind. this idea that terrorism, some country somewhere called the united states of terror, we go to war with it. stamp it out like we did nazi germany and that was the end of the war. everybody surrenders, it's all over. no, it's in people's hearts and minds. the desire to blow up an airplane, the desire to kill yourself to kill other people. it's in your hearts and minds. the notion he can actually stamp it out as if, you know, you can get some sort of insect repellent and take care of it, or the notion that we're ever going to get completely gone with it, and if we don't, then we can't stop the war and the war footing. i thought he put it in perspective in terms of who the enemy is, what the threat is, what can be done about it. i think just about every way he put it in the proper perspective. your thoughts. >> it might be six to ten years too late, but i do agree with you that he was trying to address a new realism when it comes to terrorism. in short term, the message was don't freak out about this.

it is a challenge, but the real targets are the international networks which may be different than having some lone wolves or guys that do terrible things in boston or london. and that there -- i thought what was really interesting was watching him grapple with the dilemmas that even dealing with terrorism on a less cheney-like footing still entails. whether it's, you know, dealing with detainees or dealing with drones. and, you know, i think there are still a lot of details to be fleshed out. he wants to have more oversight and a less expansive drone program. what are the details there? the fact he's putting this out for public discussion and showing some -- uncertainty is not the word -- the fact these are issues to be grappled with is something we never would have seen under the bush/cheney administration. i think it's a mature approach and good starting point to fill in some of the details. >> you know, pat, you were in the war.

on september of 2003, the time when the wounds of 9/11 were still relatively fresh and the iraq war was just months old, cheney gave an infinite time line for the ridiculously named war on terror. let's listen. >> from our perspective, this is a continuing enterprise. >> well, in may of 2009, speaking at the american enterprise institute, this is really bringing coal to new castle, cheney remains stuck in his black and white view of the terrorist threat. incidentally, cheney began his speech moments after president obama finished his own speech defending his anti-terrorism policies. let's listen to cheney. >> here's the great dividing line in our current debate over national security. you can look at the facts and conclude that the comprehensive strategy has worked, and therefore, needs to be continued as vigilantly as ever. or you can look at the same set of facts and conclude that 9/11

was a one-off event, coordinated, devastating but also unique and not sufficient to justify a sustained wartime effort. but in the fight against terrorism, there is no middle ground, and half measures keep you half exposed. >> and on the day after president obama told the country osama bin laden had been captured and killed, actually killed, abc's jonathan carl interviewed cheney. let's listen. >> are we safer now? >> i think so, but it's a kind of situation where we need to preserve our sense of vigilance, if you will. we need to stay just as vigilant as we have been. >> let me go back to david. i mean, this is an important transition from cheney-ism to obama-ism. obama's fighting the war because we have to fight it because it's something we can handle and also be americans at the same time. cheney saw it as an all encompassing reality he stepped into and wasn't actually upset with being in. he seemed to be at home in it.

just that he seemed to relish the experience of fighting it and he seemed to like this notion that it would never end and that it would be an existential threat. as if it threatened america's very existence. that got into a blood system where everybody began to talk like that. the idea there would be bombs dropped with nuclear bombs. the idea we'd be facing 9/11s every weekend. this was out of proportion to what we faced. >> of course it led to such excesses of waterboarding and torture. you know, i think the comment you just played from the aei speech which was eight years or so after 9/11 in which he said there are no half measure, all or nothing, shows the mindset. the world doesn't tend to work in all or nothing terms. >> yesterday president obama in his speech took a clear ideal ahead of and a danger to distorting that threat.

let's listen. >> in years to come, not every collection of thugs that labels themselves al qaeda will pose a credible threat to the united states. unless we discipline our thinking, our definitions, our actions, we may be drawn into more wars we don't need to fight. >> there we have it, pat. the we of what we can do here. i've always thought, i'm not an expert, but i've studied this story like everybody has, that the claim and purpose of al qaeda was draw the world into an east/west war. everybody involved in this and it would never end until there'd be something established and that was their goal. to the extend we show discipline and refuse to engage in war against islam which i think the president and george w. bush was quite clear about, i think we have a chance to narrow it down to the number of people we have to fight. we have to avoid stopping creating war posters. they can be used to recruit people. they can be used to fire up people in this country. we've seen this.

we just saw it in boston. people getting fired up by what we did in afghanistan or iraq and using that as a basis for their own radicalization. >> that's right, chris. that's why you and david are exactly right when you're saying putting it in the proper perspective. let's be very clear. barack obama has been an ass kicker when it comes to al qaeda. he took out bin laden. he decimated, took a buzz saw to al qaeda. they are now decimated. secondly, he has properly put forward the obama doctrine which is a shift to the counterterrorism doctrine. to be very specific, not nation building. we're focusing our efforts on nation building here at home. >> patrick murphy, couldn't agree with you more. coming up, where is the irs scandal going from here? a big question. the official overseeing has been removed from duty.

no evidence has been discovered of any obama involvement whatever. are the critic left with anything more than conspiracy theorys? plus, when groucho marx couldn't sell his ice cream he thought he would fight any person. the only club that would accept him as a member. also, why one republican congressman thinks barack obama has ronald reagan to thanks for him becoming president. he blames him, of course, for that. and let me finish with ted cruise's within for an all-out political war. this is hardball. the place for politics.

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well, senator rand paul's looking stronger and stronger as welcome back to "hardball." that's how long it's taken the

white house to regain some footing on the issue that's an honest assessment. instead of getting out in front of the criticism and playing offense, the white house crowd made the key mistake, it's not immoral, but it was a mistake of thinking what the president didn't know wouldn't hurt him. there's no doubt that's cost him. let's take a look at the bigger picture here. we now know they botched the chance to jump on the wrongdoing when senior staffers got wind of the issue. okay. that's true. the administration responded on multiple levels ever since. may 10th is when the president learned of the is rs targeting of the tea party from news reports. may 15th, the irs commissioner resigns under pressure. a day later the president names a new commissioner, and instructs him to conduct a top-down agency review. the next day the white house holds a pair of pr strategy meetings with former advisers. all smart people. monday white house press secretary jay carney comes clean with a more detailed timeline of what administration officials knew and when they knew it. wednesday carney strikes an apologetic tone with the press

admitting the white house mishandled it here. yesterday, things came full circle and lois lerner was placed on administrative leave. after refusing an order to sign. she's off the job for a while. robert gibbs is a former white house press secretary. he was part of the may 17th white house strategy session when the smart guys came in and smart women. joy reid, also smart. she's with grios.com. still an independent lady on the outside of this business. robert, you've been in there. i don't know how much you're privileged to say about that strategy session. it does seem to me based on news reports, i'm like the president here, based on news reports, you folks suggested getting this threat as fast as you could, whatever was left to put out, and basically clean house as best you can then start focusing on positive efforts like creating jobs. don't just sit there in the water taking heat and taking hits. was that roughly what you guys were advising? >> i don't -- i wouldn't dispute that. i think the white house clearly has, as you said, regained their

footing even from just the beginning of this week. i think they've come, as you said, full circle, in now dispatching for leave lois lerner. i think they're in a much better place certainly than they were two weeks ago but probably even, chris, in a much better place than they were just two or three days ago. >> let me ask you, joy, from the outside. maybe he's being too kind. i think he's a bit too kind. i think lois lerner, somebody should have outlawyered her. the idea she's getting paid full time without having to do any work is going to bug some people. at least she's off the job and not there involved in any way of the mishandling of the files. it's irony that lois lerner discover this in the beginning, told the employees to change criteria, not to do it anymore. she sort of awkwardly tried to get it out during the bar association speech. she also probably has some civil service protections.

that also is an issue here. these are career employees except for the two appointed people at the top. the general counsel and the general sort of the leader of the irs. these are career civil servants. it's not easy to cashier them whenever you want. we want there to be a distance between the white house and irs so they're not directly right on top of telling them what to do. >> you really think the american people are going to let the president off the hook because he can't fire a bunch of people who did some stuff wrongs? they're going to say liberals gave them those work rules. that's what the voters are going -- by the way, as long as they're there, it's a problem for the president and all democrats. >> but the thing is is that i think most americans are still not at the point where they're paying, number one, a supreme amount of attention to this. >> three-quarters of the american people think it's inappropriate. >> in the pew poll last week, a third are paying attention. mostly are republicans. it's a partisan issue. >> robert, how can they improve the situation henceforth?

the problem, the ditch they were in, i think they're climbing out of the ditch right now. is there any way they get all the way out of this ditch unless there's a good significant number of removals of people in the irs where this problem is? i think charlie rangel or somebody said it's a cancer, it has to be removed. unless that's removed, the whole federal government is perceived as guilty. >> i think that's correct. i think this first administrative leave should just be the beginning. i think the acting commissioner should drill down and figure out why this happened, who was involved and get them out of the irs. let's be clear, chris. if you're a progressive, we're not going to hold the white house forever, right? eventually there's going to be a republican president and we

don't want politics to enter into the irs tax code regardless of what party you're in. i think -- republicans don't mind the disasters. you're clowns in washington or worse than that >> not to mention, this is -- you're going to see this -- you've already seen it enter into the health care debate. >> already. >> you're going to see this in virtually every debate. the republican talking point will be if the administration can't control the cincinnati office of the irs, how are they going to do blank? how are they going to secure the border for immigration reform? how are they going to implement health care reform? so this is a dangerous issue that has to be dealt with. the good news for the president is voters don't hold him responsible for having caused this problem, but like in a natural disaster, they expect him to fix it. >> by the way, this gives credence to all the loony tune arguments out there. i'm not going to say people are loony tunes, themselves. if you're somebody out there like michele bachmann, for

example, saying, oh, may have all these secret health records on you, they're going to spread them around and make you a fool to all your neighbors. that is credible to people on the right and the center right right now because of this problem over at the irs. i'm sorry to say these things. i'm not happy saying these things the last two or three weeks. >> right. >> but they're true. >> weren't they going to say that, anyway? >> it's called evidence. after watergate, it meant something. thank you, robert gibbs. i'm older than you. joy reid. thank you. i know you went to harvard. up next, do we have ronald reagan to thank for barack obama's presidency? wait until you catch this logic of iowa congressman, yes, steve king. it's coming in the sideshow. this is "hardball." the place for politics. fá7á#

ha! well, back to "hardball." now to the sideshow. president obama spoke at the u.s. naval academy in annapolis. he gave the commencement address. anyway, but he hit a slight snag before taking off on marine one. hint.

here's what we usually see before the president boards the helicopter. here's what happened today. i like to see that humility. the president backtracked to shake hands with the marine he ignored. remember when the gop candidates couldn't stop praising the thing reagan had done? fishes around for reasons why president obama got elected and now he thinks it might actually circle back to ronald reagan, himself. it's all to do with the 1986, well, it was the immigration act. he calls it the amnesty act which granted amnesty to immigrants who arrived in the united states before 1982. here's stephen king. >> there's something like 15 million people in this country, not discounting deaths and those that might have gone back, that were the beneficiaries of the 1986 amnesty act. so i just pose this question.

does anybody think that barack obama would be president today if the 1986 amnesty act had not become law? i don't believe barack obama would be president today if ronald reagan hadn't made the most colossal mistake in his career in signing the 1986 amnesty act. he let me down that day. >> another comment on history from the guy who thinks president obama is an illegal immigrant, himself, came here after being born in kenya, that's what he thinks. next, when outrage goes awry. pennsylvania republican governor tom corbett was asked whether he had any latino staffers, himself. >> do you have staff members that are latino? >> no, we do not have any staff members. if you can find us one, please let me know. >> either one of you want to come to harrisburg? >> here's a great quote. if you can find me one, let us know.

the fact is, the latino population is on the rise. it increased by 80% between 2000 and 2010. in fact, the spokesman later said corbett does, in fact, have one latino staffer. this comes a few weeks after corbett suggested one reason for pennsylvania's high unemployment rate is that employers can't find job candidates who are able to pass a drug test. and this is the governor of the state. finally, yesterday marked former congressman anthony weiner's first day on the campaign trail as a mayoral candidate. it was a crazy one. even people who couldn't have cared less about his campaign found themselves in the brouhaha. he was blocking a subway entrance in new york, according to the "new york observer." "the situation got so bad at one point two police officers were forced to intervene, escorting mr. weiner and reporters away from the entrance." the tweeting scandal that forced his exit from congress in the first place was not absent in the first place. one bystander said, "instead of a hug i really wanted a text." interesting bystander. anyway, the madness followed weiner on to the subway. one person in the crowd advised

"stay off facebook and all of that. leave that alone." this candidacy, as i said the last couple days, is a disaster for new york, a disaster for the democratic party and for society. that's hardball for now. have a safe and happy memorial day weekend. coming up next "your business." l with tide washing machine cleaner. it goes straight to the source of the stink to lift odor-causing residues off your washer's drum. tide washing machine cleaner.

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it's a battle between online and brick-and-mortar shows. the 3-d revolution and how it's changing the face of entrepreneurship. and what do you need to know if you're hiring and managing today's teens? let's get to work and make money coming up next on "your business." ♪